11

8.—14.

107. You do not know, for example, the truth of this statement—which I believe is perfectly true : that there are twenty female students in the Christchurch Training-college to one male ?— No, I have not heard that. 108. At any rate, our main difficulty in the colony is in regard to getting a sufficient number of males ?—Before I commit myself to that statement I should like to go into the details. 109. Is not the average age of the occupants of the present positions rising very fast ? —I have not gone into all those questions. There is a sufficient number of certificated teachers to fill all positions at the present time. 110. Is it not a fact that when teachers of either sex get to the age of sixty to sixty-five the capacity of dealing with young minds very sensibly declines—l put the question from a psychological point of view ?—I say, from a psychological point of view, much earlier. 111. Then, it follows, from your opinion, that when you get somewhere near that age there ought to be a system of retirement ?—Yes; either by a pension scheme or by some form of superannuation allowance. 112. Would it not be easier to provide a system of retirement of either kind if there were a colonial scale rather than if there were no colonial scale ?—I think if there were not a colonial scale it would simply mean adopting the rates of an insurance company. If there were a colonial scale of salaries it would be easier to get a superannuation scale. 113. Mr. Weston.] How many teachers are there in New Zealand in employment?—2,s4l employed in the primary schools. 114. Without pupil-teachers? —Yes. 115. Mr. Stewart.] The order of reference which we have here, of course, compels the Commission to deal with the question solely from the £4 capitation grant ? —Yes. 116. Is it not a fact that the expenditure per capita has risen all over Great Britain, and is in excess of our own capitation allowance of £4 ?—I should not like to say it was everywhere. 117. lam speaking of the School Boards —progressive School Boards? —I should not like to say it exceeds £4. 118. Could you give the figures ?—I could give them roughly. 119. What do they include ?—lt does not include the cost of the administration of the London School Board : the cost of inspection. Ido not think it fair to make a comparison unless I make an analysis. 120. Mr. Weston.] Could we ask Mr. Hogben to analyse these returns for the Commission ? —I will do so. I have seen it stated in English newspapers of high authority—l think, in the Journal of Education, and also in the Practical Teacher —that it is considerably in excess of £4 per head. 121. Mr. Stewart.] You have made a provision here that in certain classes, if the schools reach a certain size, the teachers may be male or female ?—You can have as many females as you like, but not as many males. 122. Since you have made such a difference in the salaries of males and females, would not there necessarily be a tendency to take as few males as possible ?—This estimate of cost was based on the Board taking as many males as they could. 123. If that were not so this estimate would be in excess of the actual cost ? —Yes. 124. The Boards are not bound to take these male teachers; they may take more female teachers ? —Yes. 125. If they were to do so, is there a sufficient supply of males ?—Yes. 126. On the registers—-not at present employed ? —There are some not at present employed. 127. What class of schools do you consider that a female sole teacher, or head-teacher, is best adapted for ?—Apart from exceptional cases—for instance, where there are a larger number of big boys—l think up to schools of 25, or, if necessary, up to 30. 128. Do you not think that in many country districts a female teacher could manage 40 to 45 as well as a man—as sole or head teacher ?—-Well, yes; but not the average woman. I would not put the average woman there. Ido not think the physical effort required would be too great; but the school begins to grow in difficulty about that stage, and there are often more big boys to control. 129. As far as the school-work is concerned, you do not think there would be any difficulty?— No ; if the female has assistance. 130. Mr. Mackenzie.] A male assistant ? —Yes ; junior assistant. 131. Mr. Stewart.] In the larger schools, where you would expect the greater number of males to be required, did you take into consideration that you would confine male teachers to boys' classes, and female teachers to girls' classes ?—Some have mixed classes throughout; some have the boys' and girls' classes in the upper part of the school, separate. In Christchurch we find conditions more nearly approaching those of the London School Board, in which infants, girls, and boys are in three distinct departments. The division is fairly complete, the headmaster exercising a general supervision. 132. That is the Australasian system?— Yes, to a large extent; it is the system in Christchurch. In London and Birmingham it goes a little further still—practically there are three distinct schools. 133. Did you consider those facts when you drew up that scale ?—Yes, I did. I recognise the points raised by Mr. Davidson were pertinent. That is why, for instance, I propose in some cases to substitute for two pupil-teachers an assistant. 134. I notice that your scale particularly deals with the question of certificate : at the bottom you say, "subject to certain deductions" —two deductions?—-In the majority of cases you find only one deduction has to be made. 135. Is it not a fact that the majority of the schools in Dunedin are officered by Dl men ?— Yes; I feel I should be safe in saying so.