111

G.—2

548. Why do you say that Kemp made the arrangement with Sir Donald McLean?—Because that was what I heard when the men came back from Wellington, and if it had been so—that Hunia made the arrangement—l should have heard it. 549. Supposing it is said in evidence that it was in consequence of Hunia agreeing to leave the matter in Kemp's hands that the criminal summons was withdrawn while Hunia was in prison ?— I do not know anything about that. 550. Therefore, you have been making a statement with regard to Kemp' settlement of this question while you did not know whether it was correct or incorrect ? —Those things that I heard I speak about; those I did not, I cannot speak of. 551. You were not present on the occasion when Hunia was making the arrangement with Sir Donald McLean ? —No ; I was here. 552. Which was the greater chief of the two —Te Heke or Tanguru ?—Tanguru would be a great chief amongst his own people, and Te Hakeke amongst his own people. 553. In the opinion of all the tribes along the coast, which was the greater chief of the two— which had the most influence over strange tribes ?—One would be a big chief, and so would the other. 554. Was Tanguru equal in rank to Te Hakeke ?—Yes. 555. Was Tanguru greater in rank than Te Hakeke?—No; each would be a great chief in his own place. 556. I am speaking of the mana of the chief over the whole of the tribes along the coast, in the settlement of disputes : who took the most prominent part—Tanguru or Te Hakeke ?—Each would be the biggest in his own tribe. 558. Mr. Baldwin.] Do you know that Eaumatangi and the surrounding country was the residence of the old Whatanui?—Yes. 559. Kemp would know what were the circumstances of Whatanui coming there, would he not?— Yes. 560. I will read what Kemp said before a Commission in 1871 : " How came Te Whatanui to settle at Horowhenua ? —lt was on account of making peace with one of the chiefs of Muaupoko. What did they do? —Te Whatanui told Taueki that he would protect him—that nothing would reach him, except the rain from heaven. Do you mean he would protect him against the aggressions of anybody ?—Te Whatanui proposed to Taueki that they should make peace ; Taueki asked him if he would be able to protect him against the aggressions of anybody else, and Te Whatanui replied, ' Nothing will be able to reach you, except the rain from heaven.' Was Taueki the leading chief of Muaupoko ?—He was one of the principal chiefs. Then, Whatanui came and resided here, did he ?—Shortly after this Taueki pointed out to Te Whatanui land at Horowhenua ; he said to him, 'If you want any timber, there is bush ; you can use that;' and Te Whatanui did. not go to any other place." Is this correct?—lt is all correct. 561. Whatanui and his children permanently resided there ?—Yes. 562. It was their own personal residence ?—Yes. 563. It was not the land of any other portion of the Ngatiraukawa ?—No. 564. But of Te Whatanui's family alone ?—Yes. 565. They occupied it on account of this gift from Kemp to Te Whatanui ? —Yes. 567. Do you also confirm this evidence that Kemp gave : " Did Te Whatanui and his descendants, up to the time of these disputes with Ngatihuia, occupy the land with any objection on the part of Muaupoko ?—They lived peaceably until the time of Tutaki, third son of Whatanui. Would you and Muaupoko have raised any objection to the occupation of the land by Te Whatanui and his descendants but for the encroachment of Ngatihuia?—No; we should have left them in the same position as they were in when they first came on the land." Is this evidence correct ?—That is correct. 569. When Watene's first house was burned he was occupying a house of Te Whatanui him-, self, was he not ?—Yes. 570. That was the first time he occupied it ? —Yes ; but it was in consequence of the marriage between Hine Pororangi and Whatanui Tutaki that Watene came there. 571. While he was there this house was burned?— Yes. 572. Subsequently to the Court of 1873, Watene built another house?— Yes. 573. Kawana Hunia burned it down? —Yes. 574. Where was that house?—At Kohutoroa. Hectob McDonald examined. 575. Sir W. Butter.] You are a sheepfarmer, residing at Horowhenua ?—Yes. 576. You have resided there for a long time?—-I have. 577. The elder Hector McDonald was a tenant of the Native run before you?— Yes. 578. Who was his landlord before your time ?—Te Whatanui. 579. And after the land went through the Court in 1873?—Kemp. 580. Your father died, so you took over the lease ? What was the first payment you made ? Was it the payment you made through me on 21st December, 1876 ?—Yes. 581. This list (produced, marked G) is as clear a statement as you can make of the various payments made by you to Kemp or to the tribe, or to others at his order?— Yes. 582. You paid £400 first? You were present when this money was handed over to me by you, and handed by me to the Muaupoko ? —Yes. 583. Kemp was present ?—Yes, the whole time. 584. You saw this money distributed among the Muaupoko?—Yes. 585. Did he interfere with it, or was it left to the people ?—lt was handed over to them. 586. By his direction, or with his full concurrence ?—Yes.