Or.— 2

102

140. If I had a horse, and someone else stole it, and sold it for money, and I afterwards saw my horse in the possession of the man who bought it, would not the law give it back to me? —These questions have nothing to do with the case. I will not answer them. 141. Do you not know that Hene Matiora is on the land outside ?—Let her go back upon the land given her by the Crown. 142. Mr. McDonald.] Have you been told by anyone what answers you are to give to certain questions before this Commission ?—No; what I have said is from myself. 143. I heard you say that Kemp was a caretaker for No. 11 ? —Yes. 144. You say it was for him to say to whom this land was to be given ?—Yes. 145. You are quite sure that is your answer ?—Yes. 146. Did you hear Kemp say in 1886 to you, and to all the Muaupoko, that if they sold their land in No. 3, they would get none in No. 11 ?—That was given as a warning ; because, if they sold that land they would have no other land. 147. Did you hear that warning given ?—Yes ; he told me that, if I sold my land, I should have no other land elsewhere. 148. Do you expect Kemp to give you any land in No. 11 ? —Kemp has said he is caretaker, and the land belongs to the tribe. He will give me some. 149. Supposing he does not give you any, what will you do ?—I ani alive, and so long as lam alive he will give me some of the land. 150. But supposing he does not ?—I cannot answer that; he will certainly give me some. 151. Supposing you were to die, would he give any land to your heirs ?—lf I left any children, Kemp would look after them, and if I left none that would not be his fault. 152. Do you understand that this matter is absolutely in Kemp's hands to give or not to give land in No. 11 ?—The land was given to Kemp to divide amongst those people who had lived there. 153. Is it for Kemp to say who those persons are? —Yes. 153 a. You are quite clear about that ? —Kemp will give it to the people that he selects. 154. You were at the Court of 1886 : do you remember the discussion or talk about the 4,000 acres that was to be sold to the Government ?—Yes; it was Kemp's idea to have a township. 155. Do you remember it being stated to you and the Muaupoko that you were to get quarteracre sections returned to you out of this block ?—Yes; I heard that. Every quarter-acre in ten was to be for the Natives. 156. Have you got any of those quarter-acres back ?—I do not know whose fault it was; perhaps it was the fault of the Government; but we have not got them. 157. Did you hear also that the surveys would be paid for out of the price of this land?—No; I do not know anything about that. 158. Have you leased your 105 acres in No. 3 ? —Yes. 159. Did you have to pay for the survey of that 105 acres out of your rent-money?— Perhaps I did ; I do not know. 160. To whom did you lease your land ?—To Mr. Stuckey. 161. .How much rent do you get for it?—ls. 6d. an acre. 162. Did you get the first year's rent ? —Yes. 163. Was the money for the survey taken out of the rent ?—All I know is, that he has got the land, I have got the money, and I suppose he has to pay for the survey. 164. You make no question of the title to the land for the township ?—Who else has got it ? 165. Do you know what price Kemp got for the land ?—I heard he got £6,000; I only saw the shadow of the money. 166. Did you get any of that money at all ?—No ; I left the money to pay for Horowhenua. I did not get any of it. How else could I pay the lawyers and other people, if I had had the money too? 167. With regard to No. 14, it has been said, over and over again, that was cut off for Ngatiraukawa, and they would not take it ?—Yes. 168. Was it, then, given to Kemp by you to the Muaupoko?—Yes. 169. Where did you give it ?—At Palmerston; we gave it to him, but it was his own land. 170. When did you give it ?—lt was at one of the Courts held there. 171. Which of the Ngatiraukawa refused it?— Neville Nicholson ; he said it was bad land. 172. Did you cut off this land to give it to Nicholson ? Was he the person who was to get the land?— That was the piece of land that was given away by Kemp. 173. I want to know every person who refused the land ?—The whole of them would not have it. 174. The whole of who?— The people would not have it; that is all I can say. 175. Was the land to be given to Nicholson ?—lt was given for the descendants of Te Whatanui. 176. How do you know that the descendants of Te W T hatanui refused it ?—I heard it from themselves. 177. From whom did you hear it?—l am not going to tell you. I have said they would not have it, and that is all I will say about it. 178. No. 12 was allotted to Ihaia Taueki, was it not ?—Yes. 179. Was Ihaia present at that meeting at Palmerston, in 1886 ?—Yes; but he did not go into Court; he was living in a house at Palmerston. 180. When you gave this land to Ihaia, did you tell him what he was to do with it ?—I had some idea of putting myself in that block, but I thought, if I did, I would sell it; that is the reason why we gave it to Ihaia.