99

G.—2

33. Did you hear Kemp say in 1886, " Now, you people in No. 3, remember, if any of you sell your interest in this division, we shall not give you any in No. 11 "?—Yes. 34. Did you understand from that that it was for Kemp and Warena to say whether anybody went into No. 11 or not ?—I did not know whether the land belonged to them ; I only understood it belonged to Kemp. 35. Did you understand that it was for Kemp to say whether or not any one went into No. 11 ? —Yes; that is the reason this land was given to Kemp. It was for Kemp to decide whether he would let any one come in or not, and who he would let in. 36. Sir W. Buller.) You were asked whether Kemp was put in as caretaker only in Blocks Nos. 11, 6, and 14. You said that No. 14 was for Kemp, because it was his own. Will you explain what seems to be a contradiction—was Kemp to be a caretaker in all three blocks, or only in two ? —Kemp was to be a caretaker in all the blocks, excepting the one near Waiwiri —No. 14—and that was to be for himself. That piece of land never belonged to the tribe ; it was simply Kemp's own. 37. You were asked whether you did not say in the Supreme Court, in reply to a question, that you were in and out of the Court, and were there when Block 11 was called on. lam going to read you the whole of your answer in the Supreme Court, and ask you whether it is true or not: "Was any thing said about No. 11 ? —Yes; it was decided that Kemp should be guardian of that. I do not know that Wirihana was present then. Then the matter came before the Court?— Then it was known for the first time there were going to be two. What was said ?—We saw the piece of paper that McDonald gave Kemp, and Kemp suggested going to another room. We did so. Major Kemp said, ' This land I have cut up for the people —this No. 11 ; let Ihaia divide it amongst you.' Things had become confused on account of Warena's name being introduced. Kemp said, ' Leave that young fellow ;heis a Christian.' He meant that Ihaia should distribute it amongst those who had occupation-rights. We insisted that Kemp only should be in. Wirihana insisted that Warena should also be in. Wirihana said that Warena should be as a kaihehe —guardian. Then what took place ? —We went outside. We were angry at Warena being put in. We went out after Kemp said "Leave Warena in." We got angry, and left the room. I heard Kemp only once say that Warena was to be in. We then left the room. The names of those in the room were myself, Wirihana, Kemp, Makere, Ngatahi, Hamiora, and a number of others. Who left with ?—Makere, Te Kerei, Hamiora, Ngatahi, and a number of others; we went outside, and left the Court altogether. Then you were not in Court when the order was made?— No." Was that what you said ?—Yes. 38. Was that all absolutely true ?—Yes; we did not see Kemp and Warena sign their names; I did not understand that the land was solely for them. 39. Then, this is what you want the Commission to understand : you went in to hear the application for the order in Kemp's name in No. 11; and when you had the dispute, you and others left the Court, and did not come back ; and you therefore did not hear the order made ?—Yes ; I went back ; but what was done was done in English, and we did not understand it. 40. Did you hear whether the order had been made in Kemp's and Warena's names ?—No. 41. From whom did you hear it?—lt was said, then, that Kemp and Warena were to take care of this land for the tribe. After that, we heard the land had been given to Kemp. 42. You have been asked whether you have been consulted, or, so far as you are aware, any others of Muaupoko have been consulted, by Kemp before he executed the mortgage to me : was there any reason why Kemp should consult them ? —No. 43. Have you ever heard of any member of the Muaupoko Tribe objecting to what Kemp did? —No. 44. With regard to the sale by Warena to the Government, if Warena had sold any other part of No. 11, would you have had any objection?— Yes. 45. Then, it was not because the line was in that particular place, but you objected to his selling any of the land ?—Yes ; any part of it. 46. The Chairman.] When this land was divided in 1886, was it explained to the Natives by the Court what was the effect of placing the land under Kemp's name ? Were the Natives told what powers it would give Kemp ?—No. 47. Sir W. Buller.] You have heard that Wirihana put in a list of names of those whom he was treating as the people who were cleaving to Warena, and Hoani Puihi was one of them. It has been stated that he has nothing to do with Ngatipariri. What is your opinion ? Does he belong to them or not ?—No ; he does not belong to Ngatipariri. 48. But he is identified with that party. Is he among those who are supporting Warena?— Yes ; he is one of those who are cleaving to Warena. 49. Is he married to a Ngatipariri wife ? —Yes. 50. Has he gone out from Muaupoko to join these people?— Yes. 51. Mr. Fraser.] You have said that Kemp was in exactly the same position in No. 1 as in No. 6 and No. 14 ?—Yes; that was what I said in the first instance. 52. That was the position understood in 1886, was it not ? —Yes; we arranged then that he was caretaker for all the blocks. 53. That he was the caretaker in each of the blocks ? —Yes; he was the caretaker of the blocks, with the exception of No. 14. 54. In everyone of the other blocks he was a caretaker ?—Yes. 55. Was he a caretaker in No. 10.? —We gave him No. 10 for his debt to Sievewright. 56. Was it stated in open Court in 1886 that No. 14 was for Kemp alone ?—I do not know what was said about that in open Court —about No. 14.