65

G.—2

Kemp, " I think you ought to make an arrangement with this young man to let him have his name in the title, and have a portion of the rent." Kemp said, " Oh, I see what is the matter ;he wants to show his rights. I will not give him anything. You can do what you like in the matter." I said, " There is no use talking to this man any longer ; we will go straight to Mr. Barnicoat." We went to Mr. Barnicoat, and Mr. Barnicoat advised Warena to give me a power of attorney to act for him, because then it would save him from employing a licensed interpreter. That power of attorney still exists. Mr. Barnicoat took the case to the Supreme Court to compel Kemp to account, and so the matter has gone on. I have not taken notes, nor kept a diary of the matter, because I have never done anything of importance, except through Mr. Barnicoat; anything of importance I referred to him. 200. Did you take part in proposing a partition of the Block 11 between Kemp and Warena ? Was that not before you went to Mr. Barnicoat ?—lt was some time after, when there was an application from both sides; and also it was ordered by the Supreme Court, to find the relative interests. Then we met at Palmerston, and there were several days of negotiation. McDonald was there all the time. The first thing I remember was McDonald coming to me and saying he had had a conversation with Kemp. 201. The Chairman.] Who was he representing at that time ?—He was retained by me as licensed interpreter for Mr Barnicoat. McDonald said that Kemp had offered him 1,000 acres for Warena's own name: what did I think of it? I said, "I do not know; I think I will refer it to Warena himself." And I did. Warena said, " Oh, no !If I take 1,000 acres for my own name, and left all the rest to Kemp, what would become of my people ? Some of the people are friendly to Kemp, and some against him. He would give it to those that are friendly, and those who were unfriendly he would leave out altogether." Then, there was another meeting. I saw Kemp, and I said to him, " We had better settle this matter, instead of going to all this litigation," and we met at the Clarendon Hotel. McDonald was there. Hone Taipua asked him to come in. We agreed that Block 11 should be divided equally in two halves, and the people be divided; they were taken alternately. If any people fell to Warena who would rather be Kemp's they could arrange for themselves. ■ Another native was there, named Karena; he was connected with Muaupoko and Ngatipariri. He said, "I do not think this a good arrangement; you will have a lot of trouble over it; I think the best arrangement would be to make it into three blocks; to cut off a block for the people, and then take a block each for the two chiefs." Kemp said, " Yes; that will do, I think, and what do you propose to do ?" The block always went as being 15,000 acres. It is not quite that. Kemp said, " Well, we will cut off 7,000 acres for the people, and keep the 8,000 —4,000 acres for you, and 4,000 for me." I said to Kemp, "No; that will not look well; there are a great many people, and it would look much better, in my opinion, to give the 8,000 acres to the people, and. keep the 7,000." We traced it out on the tracing, and he agreed with me. I thought it was agreed to, but he said, " No; we will not fix it," and he would not sign anything. He said, "We will have a meeting of the whole people at Horowhenua." We had a meeting, but Kemp did not turn up. That was the first meeting. Then we went to the Court, and the block was divided as it is now :it was divided into two. Then we had a very large meeting at Horowhenua, and Warena did not come down, but Wlrihana did. Mr. J. M. Fraser was acting for Kemp. I said to Kemp, " You had better give Warena the north side of the block of 3,500 acres, and you take the south side, because of your lease to Bartholomew of the timber, which Warena has not agreed to." Several of the tribe got up and said, " Oh, no ; we would not have it there," and then it was agreed that he was to have the north side. Kemp said, " Yes, it is all right; but I must have all the lake in my name." Wirihana got up for the first time, and said, " No ; the Court has divided the lake in two ; I must have half the lake." There was a great deal of talk over it. Two or three of the elders got up and said to Wirihana, "Never mind, let the lake go; get the thing settled, and you take 200 acres more; take 3,700 acres instead of 3,500." But Wirihana was not satisfied. Eraser said, "It is foolish ; it is a pity it is not done; you ought to use your power of attorney and sign." Although his brother was in the title I knew he was the elder of the family, and I did not want to force a settlement, and it was not done. That was as far as the negotiations went. 202. Mr. Stevens.] With regard to the relative positions of Kemp and Hunia—Kawana Hunia—as chiefs, what did you understand their positions to be—was Kawana or Kemp the greater chief ? —I should distinctly say that Hunia was far the greater chief in rank. 203. For what reason?— From all the surrounding tribes and asking the various tribes and the leading men of Ngatiraukawa, and judging from the actions of their fathers and the rank they held. 204. Do you remember the first negotiations for the purchase of land up this coast by the Government —I am speaking of the Eangitikei-Turakina Block ?—I was not here when the first negotiations took place, but I saw the last payment; I think I witnessed it at Wanganui in 1851. 205. Did Kemp take a prominent part in the negotiations with the Government for any of that land along the coast ?—ln 1851, Kemp was hardly known; he was then living at Horowhenua. He was carrying the mails from Wanganui to Wellington. 206. Where did he live subsequently to that ? —Mostly at Wanganui. 207. Where was Kawana Hunia at that time?—He lived constantly in Rangitikei, except when on his visits. 208. You had, I understand, conversations with Sir D. McLean as regards the status and chieftianship of the Natives on the coast: what was his idea of Kawana Hunia's position as chief ?— So far as I could gather, I think he thought there was no chief on the coast above Hunia in rank. You must separate them from the Ngatiapa's chiefs, because they were an invading, people. 209. With regard to the amount of money, you say that Warena asked Kemp for some money, and that Kemp declined to give it ?—No; he gave him £100, I think. 9—G. 2.