G.—2

46

419. Can you speak from what you have heard from your father of the occupation of your immediate elders in this block ?—Yes. 420. Can you say briefly, whether down to your own time, for several generations they have been in permanent occupation of Horowhenua, and exercising rights of ownership ?—Yes; they were permanent occupiers. 421. Do you remember when you took action in the Supreme Court for a statement of accounts by Kemp ?—Yes. 422. It was immediately after that that an application for the partition of No. 11 was sent in ?—Yes. 423. Who sent in the first application?—l am not certain. 424. You remember, on the application for rehearing, proposals made by Kemp to you, offering you 3,500 acres in No. 11 ?—He spoke to Donald Fraser at Horowhenua, not to me. 425. What do you consider your position as trustee in No. 11 ? Is it for him to say what persons go on to this block, or is the position you take, that it is for you to say who is to go in on your side ?—That is the view I have taken from the first, down to the present time. 426. You know the division that was put in Kemp's hands for sale to the Government —the township ? —Yes. 427. Are you aware that half the cash was paid to Kemp?—Yes. 428. The balance was left in the hands of the Government ?—Yes. 429. Do you remember Kemp asking Mitchelson or the Government for the balance of the money?— I do not know that he did so. 430. The Chairman.] Do you know the date Kemp received the £2,000 ? —Two or three years ago. 431. Sir W. Butter."] Nicholson was the pakeha who married Caroline? —Yes; I never saw him. I heard so. 432. You said that Warena took the lease that had been negotiated: what did you mean ?—■ He would not allow the mana of the lease to remain with Whatanui. It came back to Muaupoko. 433. Mr. Stevens.] You have said you wished to give 3,000 odd acres to the people—meaning Ngatipariri ?---Yes. 434. Did you wish to give it to them because you considered that each individual had an equal individual right with you, or as the chief taking the place of your father?—lt was from my thoughts for them. 435. With regard to the portion which you intended to keep for yourself and your own immediate family, there were 2,000 acres you wished to keep after selling the 1,500 acres?— Yes. 436. You mentioned six persons in your immediate family ?—Yes. 437. Is it not a fact that there are a great number more than that—more than double ?—No ; I gave the whole of them. 438 Is your daughter's name included? —No. 439. Is your brother's name included ?—No. 440. Then why do you say it is a complete list ?—I only put in the elder ones. My own three children are not put in, and Terena's children are not in. 441. Are there not sixteen instead of six in the whole family ?—No ; I do not think there is that number ; there might be ten. Will you give us a complete list ?—Warena Hunia, Wirihana Hunia, Terena Meta Kingi, Eakera Hunia, Here te Upakoiri, Earaku Hunia, and three children of Terena— viz., Eangipo, Eeupena, Eawea; and five grandchildren, three children of Warena, and one of Wirihana's. 442. When you were negotiating the sale of the 15,000 acres to the Government, did you do so without consulting Ngatipariri?—l did not tell them anything about it. 443. Did you wish to conceal the fact from them?—No; I did not wish to conceal anything. They had no business with it, and I did not see why I should, tell them what I was doing. 444. Did any member of Ngatipariri come to you to complain of your action in selling to the Government ?—No. 445. At the time the arrangement was made for the sale of the township by Kemp to the Government, was there a certain percentage of the land to be set aside and not sold? —Yes; certain sections in the township were to be left for the Natives. 446. Which Natives?— The members of the Ngatihuia and Ngatipariri. That was what I heard. 447. For the Muaupoko as a whole?— Yes. 448. With regard to the money from the sale of the township : at the time the township was sold, was not a large sum of money owing for the internal survey of the 52,000 acres ?—Yes; the surveys had not been settled for. 449. What provision did they make for paying for those surveys?— The money for the 4,000 acres sold to the Government was to pay for the surveys that were owing. 450. Was the survey so paid ?—No; it has not yet been paid for. 451. Therefore, the purpose for which the 4,000 acres was handed over to Kemp by the tribe was not carried into effect ?—No ; it was not properly carried out. 452. With regard to the £124 you wrote to Kemp for, can you assign any reason why you were compelled to write to him for that money, or any reason why you got into such a difficulty at the time ?—I received £140. First of all, he gave me £100 in Wellington, and then afterwards, at Bull's, I received £40 from him from Wanganui. Those are all the moneys I had from Kemp. 453. Did you not consider yourself entitled to very much more for yourself and people ?—Yes; I thought so at the time. 454. Did he pay you the £124, for which you wrote to him ?—He gave me £40. 455. Therefore, if it is assumed that £124 was the amount, it should be reduced by £40?— Yes.