45

G.— 2

384. You gave the names of a number of your hapu to whom you proposed to give some land ? —Yes. 385. You stated that that list was probably not complete ? —I will complete it by-and-by. 386. You omitted your brothers and sisters : they are Ngatipariri, are they not ?—Yes. 387. Eipa te Whatanui]. Do you know a chief called Te Whatanui ?—-Yes. 388. Do you not know, or have you not heard, he was said to be a chief of Muaupoko ? —-I have heard it said in former days. 389. Have you not heard from your father that he used to live on this land?—l have heard so. 390. Did you not hear there was a boundary laid down between Whatanui and Muaupoko, called Tauateruru?—Yes ; I have heard of that. 391. It was laid down, so that they could live in peace—the Muaupoko on one side, and Whatanui on the other ?—Yes ; they arrived at that understanding. 392: Were we not both of the same age when this land was first brought before the Court ?—I am not sure that you are the same age as I; I think perhaps you are little older. 393. Did you not hear tiiat Ngatiraukawa wanted this land from Kukutauaki to Manawatu, to Tawhakatupua, and on to the ranges, and then down along the ranges to the beach, and from there to where we started. 394. Do you know the tribes that came to contest this claim of theirs?— Yes. 395. How many tribes have you? —Muaupoko, Ngatiapa, Rangitane, and Ngatikahungungu. 396. The only one of the Wanganui who came to the Court was Kemp ?—Yes. 397. Did you not hear the judgment given in that Court ? —Yes. 397 a. In favour of what tribe was it given ? —Muaupoko. 398. I am speaking about the whole block : Was it not given to Ngatiraukawa and Ngatitoa by right of conquest and settlement and residence ? —Yes, I believe it was; but you known best. You were all there. 399. Horowhenua was inside this block ?—Yes. 399 a. Do you know the day and the month that judgment was given ?—No. 400. Did you not hear during the hearing of the whole block that Tauteka wished to go in with their claims for this block ?—Yes ; I heard so. 401. If you saw that Whatanui had laid the boundary down by Tauateruru, would that be right ? —No ; I should say it was wrong. 402. Do you dispute that Kemp said yesterday that he said, "Let this land go to Whatanui"? —I do not know anything about that. 403. Do you remember the boundaries laid down when this case was before the Court ? —-I am not quite certain as to the boundaries. 404. Do you know about what Kemp said on that occasion ?—-I only know about the descendants of Whatanui, and what Kemp said. 405. Do you know that the lines laid down in Court were from the beach up to Komakorau, on to Tauateruru?—l heard that. 406. Then running along Tararua, then turning south down to the eastward, on the Otawhaowhao, on to Rakauhamama, and by the beach to the commencement ?— Yes. 407. Do you know Hector McDonald?—Yes; he lives on the Horowhenua Block. 408. Do you know that Whatanui leased this land to Hector?— Yes; I have heard that Whatanui and others leased the land to Hector. 409. If you were to see the lease would you know that it was the correct one given by Whatanui to Hector?—lf you have the lease you had better lay it before the Commission. 410. Bopata Banapiri.'] Did you object to the arrangements made by Kemp with respect to this land in regard to Ngatiraukawa? —No; I did not. What has been done is all right. 411. Do you know of any lands he has allowed Ngatiraukawa to have on this block since 1873 ?—No. 412. Did you hear that Kemp gave Horomona Tereni, of Ngatikahao, hapu of Ngatiraukawa, any land in this block in 1874, near the Waiwiri side?—-I heard about that. I heard these men asked Kemp for an eel-weir on that land, and that Kemp gave it them. I did not hear this from Kemp himself. 413. If you had heard from Kemp himself that he had given these men a small piece of land in this block, would you have objected to it?—l would object if it had been wrongly done; but if he could show good cause, then it would be all right. If Kemp could explain why he gave it, and the explanation was good, it would be all right. 414. lam only talking about what happened in 1874, not of what occurred since. In 1874 Kemp's name alone was in this block. I want to know about the arrangements made by him when he was sole owner of the block. If you had heard then that Kemp had given Horomona a small piece of land when he was sole owner, would you have objected?—lt would have been right of Kemp to give him a piece of ground; but in 1888 it was divided. 415. If you could see in any document between Kemp and the late Sir D. McLean, in reference to this matter, would it be all right then?—l should make no objection, if it had been done according to law. 416. Mr. Fraser.] You have refreshed your memory, and you did sign your name to a transfer to the Queen. Is that your signature (on exhibit marked C) ?—Yes. 417. What amount did you receive on account ?—£2,000. 418. I should like to know what you did with this money. I do not wish you to give the specific debts that you liquidated, but was it spent for the benefit of your family and people ? Was it required for that, and spent in that way ?—Some of it was expended by me to pay debts, and some in connection with the Horowhenua Block.