G.—2

36

60. At the proposed subdivision of No. 11, how many acres did you expect in your own right for yourself and your family, including the members of your brother's family ? —The number of acres that were placed to my name at the Court at Palmerston—6,soo acres, more or less. 61. Had your father any cultivations or buildings on any portion of this 6,500 acres?— Yes; he had his cultivations on it. 62. Had some of the Muaupoko cultivations there also?— Yes. 63. Having got this land awarded to you in your own right, was it your intention to have used this land for your own individual requirements, and to have driven the Muaupoko off the land ?—- No; I did not think I should occupy the land only, and turn the Muaupoko off it. 64. What did you propose to do with it ?—I thought a certain portion should be marked off and given to my hapu, and I gave a list of the names to Mr. Cadman. 65. Therefore, if it has been stated that it was your intention to deprive or rob the Muaupoko of their land, it is not correct ?—I never had any intention of the kind. My intention was to have a portion divided off for the hapu. I had stated at Palmerston that I would return a portion of the land to the Muaupoko— i.e., to the section called Ngatipariri. 66. Do you know whether Kemp had proposed to deal in the same way with his portion of No. LI ?—So far as I know, he did not intend to do anything of the kind; he had no list of names made out. The list of names I made out I gave into the hands of Mr. Cadman. 67. You recently sold to the Government a portion of the 6,500 acres of which you spoke ? —Yes. 68. Of the remainder, how many acres did you propose keeping for yourself and family ?— About 5,000 acres. I sold 1,500 to the Government. 69. The 5,000 would be the whole balance : how much did you intend to keep for yourself and your immediate family ?—I intended giving 3,000 acres of that to the Ngatipariri. 70. You made this offer, I understand, on several occasions to the Muaupoko ?—I have not yet made any statement of this kind to the Ngatipariri, because there has been so much trouble about the land. I thought it should be settled in this way, and I handed in a list of names to Mr. Cadman. 71. The Chairman.} When did you hand in that list?—At the time he was Minister; 1 and Donald Fraser handed in the list. 71a. Was that before or after you sold the land to the Government ?—lt was before I sold the land. 72. Mr. Stevens.) Did you never discuss with the Ngatipariri the proposal which you made to Mr. Cadman concerning the list of names you gave him of persons who would become entitled to a part of the land ?—I have never spoken to them about it ; but that was my intention. 73. Sir W. Butter.] You say your age is thirty-seven?— Yes. 74. Do you know how old you. were at the time of the Court sitting at Foxton in 1872-73 ? ■—I do not know how old I was. 75. Are you not a student for the Ministry now? —Yes. 76. You are a lay-reader ?—Yes. 77. Then, cannot you work out how old you were?— No. 78. Were you not too young to take part in any of the meetings ? —Yes; I was very young at the time. 79. And you took no part in the meetings?—No ; I took no part. 80. Then, what you told us about the payments made by your late father is hearsay ?—Yes ; I heard it from my father. 81. When did he tell you what he paid ?—At the time and since ; I have always heard it. 82. You do not know who collected that money and gave it to your father ?—My father's tribe —the Ngatiapa, Hamuera, Aperahama te Pae. 83. You told us about the burning of the houses, and you say it was done at the instance of your father, and that Kemp was not there : were you there? —No ; I was not, but my elder brother was. 84. How do you know he was there when you were not there ?—I know he was there, because I was at Parewanui, and he went on. 85. And you suppose he came here?—He left me at Parewanui, and he went on. 86. You told us about the events in Wellington : were you there when your father was arrested ? —No ; I did not go down. 87. In all these events your father took a more prominent part than Kemp : that is what you heard ?—Yes ; I heard so. 88. You were not at any of the meetings which preceded the Division Court of 1886 ?—No ; but my brother was. 89. You have heard that your brother was there : you did not see him ?—No, I was not present myself. 90. Do you remember the sitting of the Supreme Court in Wanganui before the Chief Justice in September, 1894 ?—Yes ; I gave evidence on that occasion. 91. The evidence you gave there was true, every word of it?— Yes. 92. You said, in reply to Mr. Stevens, that at the meeting of Muaupoko, in 1891, at Horowhenua, you made certain proposals to the tribe in regard to Block 11 ?—lt was not my utterance froih my own mouth at that time; they were the utterances of my brother and Donald Fraser. 93. Did you make any speech at all at that meeting at Horowhenua when these proposal's were put before the Muaupoko ?—No. Donald Fraser made a speech, and so did Wirihana ; but I did not. 94. How did the Ngatipariri know you were going to give them 3,500 acres. Was it Fraser and Wirihana who told them ? —No ; that was not said ; but they knew that it would be done. If there had been no disturbance by Kemp and Sir Walter Buller, the 3,500 acres would have been given to the Ngatipariri.