1.—4.

32

849. Mr. J. C. Brown.] You mentioned two prisoners who got employment on coming out of gaol. Is it usual to offer prisoners employment?— The truth is, I did not know that the man had been a prisoner ; I was only told the other day in the gaol ; I was not aware of it before. 850. The Chairman.] Do you know whether prisoners in AVellington, after they complete their sentence, find it difficult to obtain employment ?—No ;I do not think so. I see men about at work whom I have seen in the gaol. 851. Hon. Mr. Gisborne.] Do you attend the floggings in the gaol ?—Occasionally I have, when wenty-five lashes have been administered by order of the Supreme Court in cases of rape. 852. The Chairman^ Is the punishment severe ? —No ; I do not think it is. 853. What effect do you think it has on the prisoners? —I have not had sufficient time to judge. It is only within the last two or three years that flogging has been established, and there have only been four or five cases of punishment of this kind, and I suppose the majority of those who have been punished in that time are still inmates of the gaol. 854. Do you know whether or not there is much fear on the part of the prisoners of that punishment? —No; Ido not think there is. Two or three cases have been those of hardened men who have made up their mind to bear it. 855. On the women's side what means of classification is there ? —The women's side, I think, is more convenient than the men's side. There have been great additions there, and they have means of separating those who have not been so deeply stained. They put the light-sentenced jieople in other accommodation. So far as that goes I think the female side is very well off. 856. Hon. Mr. Gisborne.] Have you any record of the illness in the gaol, showing the deaths?— Oh, yes; there is a book regularly kept, and it is published in the statistics for each gaol. 857. Mr. J. C. Brown.] You can only give information as to thegeneral health of the prisoners, not with regard to their conduct, or the general effect of the imprisonment ? —I have nothing to do with those matters, of course. All my visits are recorded in the book, and at every visit I make all the prisoners within the gaol are able to come before me. They have notice that lam there, and any one wishing to see me has only to say so and come forward. 858. The Chairman^] Is there much sham complaining ? —No, there are few ; they are generally by old stagers; but they have been few of late years. 859. Is the object to get away from work ?—Yes. 860. Hon. Mr. Gisborne.] Is the gaol overcrowded so far as the matter of health is concerned ?— At present it is. 861. How r much?—l cannot say without reference. 862. The Chairman.] Is it very much overcrowded ? —lt must be nine months ago since I went into the rooms, and it was a wet day ; the men were crowded in the passages, and it was impossible to stop there without feeling sick. The Gaoler told me the other day that there were fewer now in the gaol than there had been for twelve months. 863. Hon. Mr. Fox.] How often do you visit ?—We go twice a week. My assistant, who is a qualified man, takes one visit; personally I make one visit a week. 864. Mr. Tole.] Are all the cases of sickness treated within the walls of the gaol ?—Yes. 865. You have not had any prisoners removed to the general hospital ?—Not within the last three years. I have had perhaps two or three since I have been there. 866. Is there not sufficient accommodation? —Not sufficient accommodation, and no means of treating the sick. 867. Hon. Mr. Gisborne.] AVhat i 3 the process to be gone through in order to secure their removal? —I make a representation, and the warder of the gaol obtains an order from a Judge of the Supreme Court. 868. Then, is he taken back to gaol when cured ?—Yes ; he is taken back to gaol. 869. Do you know any persons who have been released on the ground that their health suffered in the gaol ?—No. The witness was thanked for his attendance, and withdrew.

Mr. Johnston,

22nd Aug., 1878.

Friday, 23rd August, 1878. Venerable Archdeacon Stock examined, 870. The Chairman.] I understand you have been visiting the Wellington Gaol for about twenty years ? —I commenced in 1856. 871. And from that time till now you have visited the gaol ?—Always every Sunday, until within these last three years ; and occasionally I have made special visits in cases of sickness. 872. Who has visited the gaol during the last three years ? —Mr. DeCastro. 873. Do you consider the arrangements at the gaol are satisfactory now as to construction and discipline ? —I believe the discipline is good ; but I must say, at the outset, I have not made particular examinations ; I simply go as a clergyman, attending to the spiritual wants of the prisoners. I strongly recommend that something be done in the way of providing accommodation for Divine worship. At present it is held in the corridor or entrance hall, where all kinds of work is done, and consequently there is no sense of dignity or reverence attaching to the place. 874. If accommodation were provided, would it be available for use by all denominations ?—I do not know wdiy it should not be. Certainly all the Protestant clergymen would have no objection at all to its being so used. 875. Is there any attempt at classification in the gaol ?—There is a slight attempt, I believe ; but lam hardly able to answer that question distinctly. I know long-sentenced prisoners are kept on one side of the gaol, and short-sentenced men on the other side. 876. Is there any attempt to keep first offenders separate from the other prisoners?—To some extent. The boys are kept iv the debtors' room.

Venerable Arch deacon Stock.

23rcl Aug., 1878