NEW ZEALAND LOCAL TIME BILL (REPORT OF COMMITTEE ON THE); TOGETHER WITH MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. (Mr. MANDER, Chairman.)

Appendix to the Journals of the House of Representatives, 1909 Session II, I-15

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1909. NEW ZEALAND.

NEW ZEALAND LOCAL TIME BILL (REPORT OF COMMITTEE ON THE); TOGETHER WITH MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. (Mr. MANDER, Chairman.)

Report brought up on the 20th December, anil ordered to be printed.

ORDERS OF REFERENCE. Extracts from the Journals of the House of Representatives. Thursday, the 21st Day op October, 1909. Ordered, " That the New Zealand Local Time Bill be referred to a Select Committee to be appointed.— (Mr. Sidey.) Fbiday, the 22nd Day of October, 1909. Ordered, " That a Committee, consisting of ten members, be appointed to consider the New Zealand Local Time Bill, and to report thereon to the House, with power to call for persons and papers; three to be a quorum. The Committee to consist of the Hon. Mr. Buddo, Mr. EH, Mr. Fraser, Mr. Hanan, Mr. McLaren, Mr. Mander, Mr. Newman, Mr. Poole, Mr. G. M. Thomson, and the mover." —(Mr. Sidey.)

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EEPOET. The Committee, to whom was referred the New Zealand Local Time Bill, have the honour to report : — 1. That the Committee have considered the said Bill, and have examined witnesses representing the Marine Department, Education Department, Labour Department, New Zealand Employers' Federation, New Zealand Press Association, Civil Service Association, New Zealand athletic bodies, bankers, and merchants; also several members of the Wellington Philosophical Institute. 2. That the Bill proposes the adoption of a local time, one hour in advance of New Zealand mean time, from the end of September to the end of March, with the object of promoting the earlier use of daylight during the summer, and providing during that period of the year one hour more of daylight than at present after ordinary working-hours. 3. That the Committee find :— ((I.) That such object is a desirable one, and would benefit the community generally, and especially indoor workers and young people of school age. (li.) That the proposal would effect a saving in expenditure on artificial light both for industrial and domestic purposes. (r.) That the weight of evidence submitted was in favour of the Bill. (d.) That the main objection disclosed by the evidence was the public inconvenience that might result from the later arrival by one hour of cable news from Australia. The publication of some of such news which now arrives in time for the morning newspapers would be delayed until the evening, and the publication of some of such news which now arrives in time for the evening newspapers would be delayed until the following morning, and news of important events occurring in Australia on Saturday afternoons may fail to reach the Dominion on that day unless the telegraph offices, now closing at the hour of 8 in the evening of that day, are kept open until 9. (c) That the objects of the Bill can best be attained by legislation. 4. That, owing to the close of this session being so near at hand, the Committee recognise that it is not possible for the Bill to be passed into law this year, and they recommend the Government to take the matter into consideration during the recess, with the view of legislating next session. In the event of the Government deciding to legislate on the subject, the Committee are of opinion that an endeavour should be made to secure the co-operation of the Commonwealth Government. FIIANCIS MANDER, 20th December, 1909. Chairman.

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MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Thursday, 4th November, 1909. William Harrington Atack, Manager New Zealand Press Association, examined. (No. 1.) The Chairman: Will you be good enough to make a statement, Mr. Atack 1 Witness: I wish to lay before the Committee the difficulties that will arise from the Local Time Bill from the point of view of the newspaper Press of the Dominion. I shall commence by saying that we are already 1 hour 35 minutes ahead of Australia, which, of course, means that when it is noon in Australia it is 1.35 p.m. in New Zealand. Consequently, if you put on the clocks one hour we shall then be 2 hours and 35 minutes ahead of Australian time, and upon that, unfortunately, in a large measure depends the efficacy and promptness of the cable service of the New Zealand papers. You see we get all our cables, both of English and Australian news, via Australia, and therefore we are dependent on Australian time. The main difficulty will be with Australian news. The extension of one hour would prevent our obtaining certain news, especially on Saturday nights, which the public and the newspapers expect, such as the progress of test cricket-matches, championship sculling-races, football-matches with New Zealand teams outside New South Wales. Other news of the same character will be rendered more difficult to obtain, or will be delayed, or may miss New Zealand altogether. Roughly speaking, no results of Australian races —by which I mean the leading Australian races, which are run at about 4.30 or 5 o'clock —will arrive in time on Saturday nights, as the New Zealand telegraph-offices shut at 8 o'clock, and consequently the messages cannot be distributed to the New Zealand papers if they do not reach the cable-station at Wakapuaka by that hour. We already have very great difficulty indeed on occasion in getting this news over, and the public of New Zealand have been educated to expect it. As the Committee are aware, they are a very sport-loving community indeed, and on such occasions as test cricket-matches, or football-matches, or sports of any sort there are always crowds round the newspaper-offices eagerly awaiting this news. Already they are quite sufficiently impatient at the delay that occurs, and I do not know what they would say to having to wait an extra hour or being shut out altogether. I might add that that difficulty could be got over so far as Saturday night is concerned if the Government —provided this Bill ware passed— would agree to open the local telegraph-offices later than 8 o'clock. At present they shut them at 8 o'clock; consequently no news arriving after 8 can be distributed at all. If the Govern- . ment would open the offices till 9 or 10 the difficulty of distributing the news would disappear, but, of course, the late arrival would still be there. In addition to this, all the news would be delayed generally one hour. For instance, the day before yesterday the Melbourne Cup, which is an event of considerable importance in the sporting world, wa«! run. The result of that and similar races at present reaches New Zealand at about 5.45. With this Bill in operation that news would all be delayed for an hour, not arriving till 6.45. Now, with respect particularly to the effect of this Bill upon the morning papers of New Zealand : the bulk of the English cables that appear in the New Zealand morning papers reach Australia at night, whence they are sent on to New Zealand. These already reach us very late, and in future some will probably be cut out altogether, and, of course, the whole of them will be delayed an hour. In order to obtain the full news in the past it has been necessary to make a special arrangement with the Government of New Zealand at considerable cost —we pay them .£4OO a year for doing it; formerly we paid a good deal more —to open the telegraph-offices here after midnight to enable these messages to catch the morning papers. That expenditure will be largely wasted. We shall still, unfortunately, have to get the offices opened, because by putting on the clock an hour it simply means that the messages will be delayed an hour, and, while one hour's will be cut out, the hour's previous to that will come at the time the last messages previously came. We shall still, therefore, have to pay this subsidy to the Government, but shall get one hour's less news than we are getting now. I may saythat it is already a great tax upon the morning newspapers of the Dominion to have to wait so late, because they have to keep their men waiting and all their lights going very often solely waiting for these midnight cables ; and the addition of an hour would be practically fatal to many of them, because they have to catch the early trains, and it would simply mean they would have to go without a certain proportion of the news which they now give the public and which in many cases the public expect to see in the morning papers. Then, much of the Australian news that they now receive will be cut out altogether. Australia is a very large country, and it is not easy to collect the news of important occurrences in good time. Very often we are pressed for time as it is. For instance, the proceedings of the Commonwealth Parliament at Melbourne late at night will never reach the New Zealand morning papers, as far as I can see, with the addition of an extra hour. And as for news from distant portions, like Western Australia or South Australia, it would practically cut out very nearly everything, I should think, for that news has to go over many hundreds —in some cases thousands—of miles of wire before it can reach Sydney, which is the distributing-point. With regard to the effect of this Bill upon the evening papers of the Dominion, we already find it very difficult to get messages to the evening papers in good time, even though the staff in our Sydney office starts work at 5 and 6 o'clock in the morning. A portion

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[W. H. ATACK.

of the English cables that appear in the New Zealand evening papers do not arrive in Australia till about 9 a.m. Australian time, and some of them not till the middle of the day. So you will see that the addition of 2 hours 35 minutes on to that time makes a very great difference indeed. The effect would be that many of the evening papers would not get the cables into their first editions, and the cables that arrive in Australia later would probably miss them altogether. It would also make it extremely difficult to get Australian news arising during the day into the evening papers. I would add that if the Commonwealth Government were to adopt a similar scheme the difficulty would, of course, disappear. We should be then exactly as we are now. With due deference to the Committee I should like to suggest that if the Bill is passed into law the New Zealand Government should be asked to earnestly press Australia to follow suit. There is only one more thing I want to say, and it is with regard to some remarks made In Sir William Steward in the debate on the Hill in the House, lie made a statement with regard to the effect of the Bill on the newspapers which is not correct —quite inadvertently, I am sure- —and as he is an old newspaper man himself it would, of course, carry weight with his hearers. What he said, according to the report in the local papers, was that " the morning dailies that would be most affected would be those of the four cities, where the telegraph-office was open all night." Well, the telegraph-office is not open all night; and all morning papers are affected, because, as I have just explained, all the telegraph-offices are specially opened, by arrangement with the Government; so it would not affect the papers in the large cities only, but all the morning papers. That is all I wish to place before the Committee. 1. Mr. Sidey.~\ Speaking of the general principle involved in the Bill, do you think it would be a good thing for the country if such a proposal were given effect to —I mean, apart altogether from the effect on the newspapers?—l would rather you did not ask me that question, because I am here in an official capacity on behalf of the news-papers, and, whatever my private opinion may be, it has to be subsidiary to my official opinion. You would put me in a rather awkward position. Supposing that I were in favour of the measure as a private individual, it would look inconsistent if I were to say so, in face of the very grave circumstances that I have had to lay before the Committee. I would rather you did not ask the question. 2. Let me put it in this way : Supposing Australia were brought into line with us, as you suggested, do yon think Mich an innovation as is proposed would be a good thing for both countries? —I think that if Australia came into line it would be a very good thing indeed. 3. You think it would be of great advantage to the people?— Yes. 4. Do you think there would be any scientific objection?—l can hardly speak from a scientific point of view, but I cannot really see what objection there could be to it at all if everybody were placed on the same footing; but if Australia were on one footing and we on another, then you would be very much in the same position as if Wellington adopted local time and the rest of the Dominion did not. Everybody would be at sixes and sevens. Where a whole community adopt it, then everything is on the same plane; it does not affect the steamer-services, or train-services, or anything at all, because the clocks are all the same. 5. I understand that your chief objection to the meastire is as to its effect on the newspapers: is that so?— Yes, that is the objection I have to lay before the Committee —that it would very gravely affect the newspaper services of the country, and indirectly, therefore, the public. (i. Can you explain how it is that a number of the papers, which might be supposed to be alive to their own interests and to the interests of the public whom they serve, are supporting the proposal very heartily?—lt may be that they are prepared to put up with the disadvantages because they think the advantage to the community at large would outweigh them. I think that was the line the New Zealand Times took. But 1113- own private opinion is that when once the Bill got into operation they would see how it would work, and would all very quickly alter their opinion. You know that editors very often do not see eye to eye with their managers. 7. You think that much of the Australian news would be cut out of the morning papers?— I think it would cut out a good deal of Melbourne news. The news we should get would be almost confined, I think, to New South Wales, unless it arose, say, in the afternoon ; then there would be time to get it through to the morning papers. But the delays in Australia are very great indeed already. The Federal Post and Telegraph service is very badly disorganized, and it is very difficult to get news promptly now, and often very expensive too. 8. Is there not a large quantity of the news already cut out of the newspapers? Is it not only a question of degree?— Well, we just barely squeeze it in as a rule now—the news that we want. Some, of course, is cut out by the 1 hour 35 minutes difference in time. 9. But, taking the cables from England, are there not a number at the present time excluded simply because they arrive too late?— Yes, but then, you see, messages are arriving from time to time, at different hours, and the}? are timed to arrive in S}'dney for a special purpose—to suit the Australian papers. 10. Is it not possible that before long arrangements may Ik , made to get the English news out the other way —by the Pacific cable? —I do not think that would make any difference; whichever way the news came, there would still be llj hours difference in time. 11. You say that the news is sent to Australia specially to suit the Australian newspapers: now, that particular feature would be removed if the cables from England did not come to us through Australia?— But it would not get over the difficulty with regard, to Australian news. It is not the English messages that would be affected so much as the Australian. 12 Do you think that, in the event of the messages coming by the Pacific cable, we should be able to get all the English news? —I could hardly foresee what the effect would be, because things would be on a totally different basis, and we should get the messages earlier in New Zealand. 13. Probably in sufficient time?— Earlier, undoubtedly. 14. Does the Pacific cable touch New Zealand first?—No, it branches at Norfolk Island.

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15. They would not come here direct in any case?—Of course, that is in the womb of the future. There are a great many changes coming, and one does not quite know. Some day or other, Tit> doubt, we shall get our own service from England. 16. Mr. Newman.] I suppose that if this Bill became law the alteration of the time would be more injurious to the morning papers than to the evening ones?—lt would affect them both—the morning papers, 1 think, the more. 17. As representing the Press Association you are opposed to this Bill? —Unless you can persuade the Australian Government to pass a similar measure. 18. Hon. Mr. BuddoJ\ Your evidence in favour of standing by the present system of mean time is entirely a matter of the receipt of news from Australia?— Yes. I wish to make it quite clear to the Committee that this measure would not cut messages out of publication; they would appear in the next issue. It would mean a half-day's delay. 19. What news would be cut out of the morning papers by the adoption of this proposal? — The messages that now arrive on what we call the midnight service—that is, the service that has had to be provided specially to enable us to get the latest news. 20. Therefore it would not affect urgent news?— Well, of course, one cannot say what may come in these messages. Very often, especially in war-time, it is urgent news. Supposing the liner War were going on now, and we were cut out of an hour's cables, it might make a very serious difference. Interesting and important news would very often be delayed twelve hours in publication. 21. You are speaking entirely from a Press point of view?— Yes. 22. Does not the Press Association receive its principal news by cable, irrespective of the special night service?—We receive our news mainly in two batches, or three batches—that is to say, in the morning for the evening papers, then in the later afternoon and in the evening for the morning papers. But there are stray cables continually-cropping up at various times during the day. 23. Would the advancing of the time one hour affect our cables from London to any great extent with regard to morning publication? —At this particular moment it would not affect them so much as it would have done a little while ago, when a great quantity of messages were arriving on the midnight cable service. Those messages do not get to Wakapuaka till about 1 a.m. They vary in number. Just at present there are not a great number, but before long there may be a great number, coming at that time in the morning. Many of those messages probably would not reach the morning papers in time for publication. It would mean 2 o'clock before messages received at 1 o'clock could be distributed all over New Zealand. If } T ou add another hour it would be 3 o'clock, and this would be simply fatal. 24. Have you seen the report of the Select Committee of the House of Commons on the Daylight Having Bill?—I have not actually seen the text of it, but I have read something about it. 25. In section 4, dealing with the Press, the report says that evidence had been submitted showing the reception of the Bill by the Press, of which by far the larger proportion was. favourable? —Yes. Well, the}' are not faced with these difficulties as to time that confront us. England is in the happy position of being behind in time, which is all right from a newspaper point of view. For instance, when a test cricket-match is being played in Australia the evening papers in London can publish the whole of that day's play on the same daj\ They are 11J hours behind, so that when a cricket-match starts in Australia at 12 o'clock, it is really midnight of that morning. But out here we are llj hours ahead. That means llf hours behind, really, instead of ahead. 26. So that the proposal contained in this Bill would, for six months of the year, cause at least twelve hours' delay in the publication of massages, from Australia principally?— Some portions of it—not the whole of the news. To put it very briefly, I would say that the Bill would greatly hamper the papers. 27. Mr. Pooled] Is there much rivalry between the morning and evening papers so far as getting fresh news is concerned? —Of course, they are naturally all very keen, and no one likes to see the other fellow getting something he might have had. 28. Is it a fact that the evening papers would hail this measure with delight because it would place within their reach some of the cable messages that would otherwise be first published in the morning papers.?—l do not think so. As far as I have consulted newspaper-proprietors, they all feel that they would be hurt by it. It would cut messages out of evening papers just as much as it would out of morning papers, and throw them forward on to the next set of papers. 29. At what time are the last messages received for afternoon publication?—We sometimes get them at Wakapuaka at as late as 2 and 2.30 p.m. After that it is almost impossible to catch the evening papers, unless it is something very urgent and very short. 30. Then, there would lie an equal division of loss between the morning and evening papers? — I think it would affect the morning papers rather more than the evening ones. 31. At what time do the morning papers publish, as a rule?— Most of them are pretty early. nowadays. They nearly all have trains leaving at 4 o'clock to catch, and I believe they go to press at something like 3 o'clock, or even earlier. 32. Do you believe in natural light for the operations of industry in preference to artificial light?—Oh, yes! Ido not think there can be any two opinions about that. 33. You think there is a pretty unanimous opinion that that would be desirable?—l should think the people you could best put such a question as that to would be the managers of some of the gas or electric light companies. . 34. The Chairmsin.] Would it not mean that the evening papers would be publishing cables which the morning papers at present publish first?—To some extent, yes; and probably to some extent the morning papers would be publishing messages that ought to have appeared in the evening papers.

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35 Then it is the general public that would be the chief sufferers, because they would be twelve hours behind in their information?—A certain proportion of the news would undoubtedly be twelve hours late every day in publication. , . 36 And that would be obviated, I understood you to say, if Australia were to join with us in passing a similar measure?— Yes, we should be exactly as we are now. 37. But until that happened we should be at a disadvantage?— Yes. We should be 2 hours 35 minutes behind, instead of 1 hour 35 minutes. 38 Mr Stt&W.l Have you considered the matter of private individuals cabling between ner< and Australia during business hoursj—l have not; but, of course it would affect them very materially, I should say, when there was some urgent business toward. It might make a serious difference to business men. . . , 39 The Chairman."] In the case of a cable sent from here to Australia and requiring a reply, would it not prevent that reply from being received during the same day, probably I—l hat would entirely depend upon the hour at which the message was sent originally 40 It would leave them one hour less to reply in?— Yes, and might make it impossible for them to reply in time. Supposing that a man telegraphed from Sydney at 12 o clock in the day about something that had to be done before 2 o'clock Sydney time, he could not get an answer. [ had not considered that matter, but, of course, it must affect private persons to some extent where urgency is in question. Geobgk Vbrnon Hudson, Civil Servant, Wellington, examined. (No. 2.) The Chairman: Will you make a statement, Mr. Hudson? _ Witness ■ I should like to make a few remarks. Perhaps the first thing I should do is to allude to some of the objections that Mr. Atack has raised.- With all due respect to the newspapers, it seems to me that the Press is a very small part of the community, taking all the people into consideration. This scheme of putting the clock on an hour m summer is intended to benent the ■ neat mass of the community. Mr. G. M. Thomson, in .peak ng on the Bill, asked why not aUei the habits of the people instead of altering the clock? This is a more reasonable objection. The pi" is that alteration in habits would be wholly impracticable, as t would involve endless adjustment throughout the whole of society, which could never be oa ™ ed ° U 1l *?*£ \ Meal times arrivals and departures of trams, steamers, Ac, opening of places of business, i 'ire &c. would all have to be simultaneously altered, whereas by moving the hands of the Sol in the middle of the night, all these adjustments could be effected quite automatically, , ; would be no confusion. In our office we ware very kindly allowed by the Government to come ( l,,wn at 8 o'clock on Saturday morning and leave at noon The concession was very ™* appreciated but at the same time its benefit is only very limited, because the man cannot get then meal times and their trains and boats altered to suit the change, so that even in a very small office r e alteration of habits is not feasible. The alteration of the clock moves the whole of the prooeedgs ot he day ,:ne hour ahead, and enables people to get the daylight at th u end of the day instead of at the boinning, when they cannot make use of it. If they do want to make use of it in the morninKsVhey have to get up very early, and become too tired to do their work later on m the IT Again visitors often arrive in the evening and prevent early risers from going to bed, and th s they cannot get their proper rest. By altering the clock the whole community gets one hour's extradayS at the end of the day for any purpose required. The whole community gets the benefit and done quite automatically. Then, another objection has been urged-as to the Swim in the clock tending to lengthen the hours of labour. That is already dealt with by Ci It would be just as reasonable to say that because of the of Greenwich is our time for all New Zealand. In reality it is not the tune for the East Cape I , , st vn bit,,nlv for a point in the Lyttelton tunnel. So nearly everybody in New Zealand U StaSShtauS even to the extent of thirty minutes in some places. The argument as to our Sailed interference with the heavenly bodies, and deluding ourse yes, >s altogether tallacious There is • certain section of the community that is emphatically against the proposal, and that is t tit"' anies. It would be dead "loss to them. The money taken out o their pockets by he sfvine ofTrtificial light will, however, go into the pockets of the community at large lhe h-n HI \h be vc.-v hard on the milkman, because he will have to get up in the dark con'tl.l longe in the year than he does at present. It will be of immense benefit to the schoolchildren 1v it they would have an extra, hour's play in daylight All the clerks in offices, factory Sγ Aod people 'servant-girls, &c., will get the extra hour's daylight for recreation all through fee summer amf or most of the time they would have any amount of spare daylight in the morning a weH Whe the mornings draw in in the autumn the present time would be reverted to. The

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community, so far as I can see, it will be an unmixed blessing, and I am perfectly satisfied that if once tried it will never be reversed. I may say that I have thought about this scheme ever since fourteen years ago 1 published my paper on seasonal time, and have been very enthusiastic about it, so I have naturally felt somewhat excited in giving my evidence, seeing that there is a possibility of its now coming into operation. 1. Mr. Sidey.~\ In what capacity do you speak on this Bill?—I am an amateur astronomer, and it was my astronomical studies that suggested this adjustment of time to me in the first instance. 2. You mads a proposal of the kind in a paper which you read before the Wellington Philosophical Institute?— Yes. In 1895, and again in 1898. 3. What was your scheme? —The same as the Bill, except that the clock was to be put on two hours. I think one hour is better, because two hours would make the daylight short in the mornings at the beginning and the end of summer. My proposal, too, was to make the alteration for five months. The two-hour adjustment could only be made for five months, because there would not be enough daylight in the mornings. 4. The Chairman.] What is the difference in the amount of daylight between, say, Auckland and Invercargill ?—I could not say precisely, but I should think it would not be more than an hour at the very most. 5. Mr. Side//.] Is that with the twilight?— There is a longer twilight in the south, because the sun goes down at a different angle. 6. So that really this Bill is required more in the north than in the south in the summer-time? —Yes. 7. So far as the north is concerned, a greater extension than the hour would be advantageous, would it not?—No, I do not think so, because the daylight would bo too. short in the morning towards the beginning and the end of summer. 8. You think there is nothing unscientific in connection with the proposal?—No scientific difficulty whatever, so far as I can see. And that was the opinion of Sir Robert Ball before the Committee of the English House of Commons. He is a very great astronomer, and he did not see any difficulty at all from the scientific point of view. 9. Could there be any difficulty at all with regard to navigation and nautical purposes?— They would use the original time. As a matter of fact on shipboard the chronometers are all set to Greenwich mean time. 10. Then you see no difficulty whatever? —I cannot see any. 11. You have spoken of the difficulty of altering the people's habits. Is it not the most satisfactory arrangement to have recreation after work?— Very much more satisfactory, I should say, especially from the employer's point of view. A man who gets up at 4 in the morning and spends all his morning in recreation is not fit for his work. 12. Have you considered the question at all from the point of view of the agricultural industry? —Yes, I have thought of it, but I do not think it would have much effect, because those engaged in that industry do not observe the time very much. They really go by the dajdight. An hour's difference in the time would not, I think, affect the average settler engaged in agricultural pursuits. 13. In regard to what Mr. Atack said as to how the newspapers would be affected, you consider that any delay that might take place in the publishing of news by them would not be sufficient disadvantage to counterbalance the benefits that would accrue to the whole community: is that your opinion?— Yes. It seems to me that it is a very small portion of the community that is affected in that way. 14. The Chairman.] Are newspaper-readers a small portion of the community? —The news they miss in the morning they will get in the evening. It will mean that a certain quantity of news that is published in the morning will appear in the evening, and vice versa. 15. Mr. Sidey.~\ You will admit, of course, that newspaper-readers form the bulk of the population?— Yes; but the cricketers, the tennis people, the bowlers, &c, would, I think, prefer to have the extra hour's daylight and have their games every night than to read in the paper what had been going on in Australia. 16. Hon. Mr. Buddo.] You have already stated that Greenwich mean time is used by nautical mon. Is there any likelihood, do you think, of nautical men making any mistake if we were for half the year to put forward the clock one hour?—As far as my knowledge of the science of navigation goes, I think the hour would be such a long period of time that there would not be much risk. If we were going to alter the clock only a few minutes there would be risk of mistakes being made in an observation, but it seems to me that a man would never make a mistake of an hour in taking the position of a ship. It would be so obvious an error. 17. The two points of calculation would not coincide? —No. 18. The Chairman.] The time of the rise of the tides would require to be altered too —the whole thing would have to be recalculated, would it not?— Yes, if that time were used for nautical purposes, but I believe the idea was—in the original Bill, at all events —that New Zealand mean time was to be used for astronomical purposes, just the same as at present. 19. Then, in the paper which published an advertisement about the tides and sunrise and sunset, what hour would be stated —that under mean time?—l should say the mean time for those purposes, unless otherwise specified. 20. Ron. Mr. Buddo.] You think there would not be any danger of local navigators—ordinary masters—making any mistake with regard to coastal navigation in consequence of the alteration?— I should think the hour would be such a large amount of time that the alteration could not lead to a mistake of that kind. But, of course, I cannot claim to be an expert in the matter of navigation, so what I say on this point is not of much consequence.

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21. The Chairman.] I assume that the watch a master of a vessel carried in his pocket would show the time under this Bill. If he wanted to know the state of the tide he might look at his watch and say, " The tide is so-and-so." Well, in that case he would be an hour wrong, would he not?— Yes, unless he made the allowance of an hour. 22. So that an element of error might creep in there? —Yes, as regards the tides. 23. If the nautical time is kept at mean time, and a man forgets this and does not allow for the difference of an hour, in connection with tides he may go all astray?— There is that risk. 24. Mr. Sidey.] You have considered all the possible objections that can be raised to this proposal, have you not?— Yes. 2f). And you have not been able to find any other than those you have mentioned, roughly speaking ?—No. 26. You have mentioned the lighting companies and the milkman? —Yes; and I should have mentioned the places of amusement. I think that the theatres and places of indoor amusement would suffer to a certain extent in the summer-time; also billiards and the drink traffic. I do not think there would be so much drinking done in the summer under the scheme, but, of course, that is a matter of opinion. 27. The C/iairman.] Do you think people would go to bed earlier because the clock were put on ? —I think they would go at ths same time by the clock as at present. 28. The nearer you get to the Equator the greater the advantages of this proposal would be, I suppose?—No, because the day is always twelve hours in length within the tropics, and in the tropics it would therefore cease to have application. 29. If a man knocks off work an hour sooner it means that he has an hour more of an evening? —Yes; he would start all his operations an hour earlier under the changed time. 30. So that really the north of this Dominion would benefit under this scheme more than the southern part?— Yes, because in the north they have not so much daylight in the evening now. Thursday, 18th November, 1909. (Mr. Poole, Acting-Chairman.) Geohge N. Goldie examined. (No. 3.) 1. The Chairman.] You represent the Lawn Tennis Association of the whole of New Zealand? —Yes. We have under our control nine thousand players —nine thousand affiliated players. That is not reckoning, of course, the school-children, and I suppose they would average about five hundred for each of the large cities. 2. Would you be good enough to make a statement in connection with the Bill?— Very well, sir. I was instructed by the delegates at the annual meeting to give evidence in support of the Bill. The motion that was carried you have before you. It reads as follows : " That in the opinion of this association the passing of legislation to enable the hours of daylight to be more fully utilised in New Zealand during the summer months will conduce to the better welfare of the community, and this association records its appreciation of and entire sympathy with the provisions of the Bill entitled ' The New Zealand Local Time Act, 1909,' now before the House of Parliament." We feel that our sport would be considerably benefited if the clock were put on an hour from the end of September to the end of March. We feel that young people especially —though of course we cater for both old and young —who arc occupied in offices during the day cannot afford time in the evening—sufficient time, at any rate —to get the necessary practice to become champions, or, in fact, to do them any bodily good. The courts generally throughout New Zealand are at some distance from the centre of the city, and the players find that they have to go without their evening meal if they are to get a few shots on the courts at night. We came to the conclusion that an hour more of daylight given to our sport would be not only a tremendous advantage to the sport, but a great benefit to the individuals who take part in it. Although our sport is one in which we like to see champions developed, our real reason for fostering it is that it is for the benefit of mankind generally—the physical benefit of both male and female. I may gay that our delegates contended that if by some act unknown to New-Zealanders generally their watches were all put on one hour, nobody would know any difference. To business people generally it would be no hindrance whatsoever if the clock were put on an hour —in fact, many of the delegates considered that it should I>> put on two hours. I may say that I have had practical experience of the clock being put on two hours. As far back as 1884 I was engaged on the survey of the Main Trunk line, and I had fiv<> years there from Otorohanga to Tβ Koura, and down through the Ohura Valley, and we found that by starting work two hours earlier in the morning in the summer months we got better work out of the men, and it did not interfere in any way whatsoever with the progress of the survey. The men were more eager to work in the cool of the morning, and it gave them a little more daylight in the evening to improve themselves as far as the lay of the country was concerned, if they were so inclined. 3. Mr. Sidey.] You are representing the New Zealand Lawn Tennis Association? —Yes, the governing body for the Dominion. 4. Is there absolute unanimity on their part? —Absolutely. 5. You referred to the time when you were on the survey party and you put into practice this principle, starting two hours earlier? —We sometimes started earlier than that, more especially when we were working through the fern gullies, where the atmosphere was very close and muggy at midday. We started early enough to put in eight hours before 11 o'clock.

1.—15.

Diagram No. I, showing the Duration of Daylight and Time of Sun's Rising and Setting throughout the Year at Wellington, New Zealand, using New Zealand Mean Time, 11 1/2 Hours in advance of Greenwich. No allowance made for Twilight.

Morning. Afternoon. Total Number of Hours of Daylight:— Sunrise to 9 a.m. 5 p.m. to Sunset w Ti 00 ( 0ctober Ito January. 1 ... ... 148h. llm. 72h. 6m. inrm lJines {January Ito April 1 ... ' ... ... 136h. 24m. 74h. 14m. 284 h. 85 m. 146 h. 20 m. Sunrise to 8 a.m. 4 p.m. to Sunset TWf :, T . (October Ito January 1 ... ... 117 h. llm. 103 h. 6m. Votiea iJlnes i January 1 to April 1 105 h. 24 m. 105 h. 14 m.. 222 h. 35 m. 208 h. 20 m.

G. N. GOLDIE.]

L—l.6.

(i. What were your meal-hours? —I have had breakfast at 3in the morning on the survey. We usually had our midday meal between 11 and 12. 7. So that you had to alter your meal-hours to suit? —That was all, but we did not know any difference. 8. You were able to <l<> it because you were away from civilisation, were you not? —Yes, we only saw Maoris—except perhaps when we had occasional visits from headquarters. 9. You can see the difficulty had you been living in a large centre —you would have had to go and have your meals at a hotel at a different time? —Yes, if we were the only ones working under that system. 10. Can you speak at all for any other athletic body?— All the athletic bodies are in favour of this movement. 11. Are you aware of that? —I am aware of it; in fact, I know that all the secretaries of athletio bodies in Wellington would have been only too pleased to lie present to-day to give evidence. 12. Mr. McLaren.'] What time did these men work on this survey?— Eight hours a day. We always put in eight hours—sometimes more when it was necessary to complete information to send down to Wellington, but the average was eight hours a day. 13. Have you been present at meetings of any other athletic bodies when this matter was considered? —No, but I have been in conversation with the athletic bodies' secretaries in Wellington. I told them I was giving evidence here, and they expressed appreciation of the fact that our association was in accord with them regarding this Hill. 14. Mr. G. M. Thomson.] They have not considered it though?—l do not think it lias come before them officially. 15. The C'lutirman.] You found that the men were quite willing to take advantage of the earlyhours of the morning to get their work finished?— They were eager for it- a simple fact. Of course the men —healthy men—were up at daylight; they did not wish to stay in bed in daylight, and they simply had to put in their time until breakfast. Before we brought the scheme into force they would be away prospecting in the creeks round about the camp, or shooting pigeons, or doing something of that sort. 16. What did they put in their time at in the early afternoon?— Well, generally at washing and darning, looking after their boots and tools, and getting meat in older to keep down expenses. 17. Did you find them better prepared for work when going straight to it with daylight than they would be if they had gone out for sport before starting work? Certainly. I may add that when we were established possibly ten or fifteen miles away from our camp it was usually a race home. 18. Mr. Eraser.] That system could not be worked in all parts of the Dominion, could it? —I only experienced that on the Main Trunk line. In the South Island we did not attempt it. 19. Mr. McLaren.] It would not be applicable to all classes of country and bush-work, would it?—Oh, yes! We did it through the Mokau Valley. Of course it depended on the class of work. You could not take out a theodolite and get satisfactory results when the trees were dripping; but as far as cleared lines were concerned, that was the time when the men put in the best work. 20. What, generally, are the callings of the people belonging to your association?—lt is absolutely cosmopolitan ; we have all classes. 21. Do the big majority of them go to work at 8 o'clock in the morning or 9 at the present time? —I could not say. Speaking roughly, I should say they would be divided —possibly very equally. Some clubs are entirely composed of those who go to work at Bin the morning. 22. Mr. Newman.] Was this matter fully discussed by the members of your clubs?— Yes, by the association. 23. They appointed you as their representative? —Yes, with Mr. Peacock. Charles E. Adams, Lands and Survey Department, examined. (No. 4.) 1. The Chairman.] Whom do you represent?— The Civil Service Association. At a meeting of the association on Monday the Executive Council resolved that I should come before you to give evidence in favour of this Bill. I have in the time at my disposal made a small diagram which may show how the proposal would affect our hours of work. ['See ' Diagram I.] This is based only on very rough evidence, and I have only had the times of sunrise and sunset to go on from the New Zealand Nautical Almanac, and I have not taken twilight into account. The diagram shows the hours of daylight from sunrise to sunset, the black representing the hours before and after sunrise and sunset, and the white space in the middle representing the daylight. The black lines on it represeiit 9 o'clock a.m., and the upper black line represents the time we cease wink—s o'clock p.m. The months are shown regularly right along from the left to the right. 2. Mr. Sidey.] Is this for Wellington?— Yes, for Wellington, with New Zealand mean time. The alteration proposed by the Bill is shown by two dotted lines extending from October to the end of March, an hour earlier in the morning and in the afternoon. Of course this is subject to considerable modification if twilight be considered. I may add that every individual whom we have consulted in the Civil Service has been unqualifiedly in favour of this proposal. ■"). How is your association constituted? —It is a voluntary association of the Civil Service. 4. Which Departments does it, embrace? —All Departments, except the Railways and the Post and Telegraphs, which have their own associations. 5. How is your executive constituted?—We are elected by the various branches. There are branches in the chief towns, and they send delegates to Wellington, and the delegates themselves select from the association the officers to (airy on the executive work in the interim. (>. Then you are representative of the Civil servants all over the Dominion?— Yes, sir. 7. How many do vmi reckon you represent?—] should say our number would be about a thousand or twelve hundred. I speak subject to correction, not having the actual figures. 2—l. 15.

9

[.—l5

10

C. E. ADAMS,

8, Was it your executive that appointed you to come here? —Yes. !). Was the executive unanimous in regard to this matter?— Yes. 10. Have Civil servants tried to introduce any scheme of the kind—l mean for the working of the Departments? —A number of us have had the matter under consideration for some time. A number of us arranged, before we saw this Bill, to endeavour to get petitions in circulation asking the Government to move the hours of business an hour forward in the summer months. But, as your Hill was then notified, we suspended action. We understood that possibly if petitions were sent in simultaneously from all Departments it would be simply a matter of issuing an Order in Council in alter the hours of Government business. It would not mean an alteration of the clock. We could not see that any public inconvenience would be caused in this way, because the greater number of the Government offices are closed to the public at 4 o'clock. 10 to 4is the usual time. 1 speak particularly for the Survey Office. 11. Mr. Fraser.] Would you propose, then, to make the hours for the public from '.) to .'5 in reality? —They could stand at from 10 to 4, because the officers would not leave till 4. Wo could attend to the public till the actual time of closing. 12. Mr. G. M. Thomson.] I understand that if the Government were to alter during the summer months the hour for opening all public offices by making it one hour earlier, you would achieve the same results?—As far as we are concerned, certainly, and the possibility is that other places of business might follow. But there is one great objection to that : there is so much legislation that refers explicitly to hours of work: Of course our own case would be dealt with at once if the Government brought down an Order in Council. 13. Mr. Sidey.] Speaking of the Civil servants who are not members of your association, have you had opportunities of testing their feelings?— Yes, I have personally, and I think most of us liave consulted Civil servants generally irrespective of whether they belong to the association or not; and personally I have never met any one who has objected to the proposal. 14. Mr. I!. M. Thomson.] Can you give us any reasons from a scientific point of view in favour of this proposal?—l am afraid the reasons in favour of it are those regarding its effect on the general health of the community, and so on. From the scientific side Ido not know if there is any reason why we should have one time more than another. We have an arbitrary time now— lls hours ahead of Greenwich. Of course there would be the constant break at the two half-yearly periods, in addition, but 1 think our safety lies in the fact that we are so isolated. If). But every advantage that could be brought about by this Bill could also be affected by simply altering the hours of work?—As far as we are concerned, certainly. 16. Mr. Newman.] I suppose you have not considered what the effect of this Bill would be in regard to our connection with Australia, for instance?—l do not see how it could affect it in any 17 Would it not have a very considerable effect if we had one time and Australia another? We have a different time now—different from Sydney, different again from Melbourne, and different again from Perth. They have a variety of times there, and, so far as any ordinary businesses concerned between the two places, in the case of a steamer journey, an hour is absolutely insignificant. _ , 18 Mr Franer.] Would it not affect the telegraphic news from Australia? Instead of an hour and a half difference there would be two hours and a half ?—The time would have to be corrected an extra hour. 1!) I mean that in respect to news telegraphed across from Australia, you would close an hour earlier in the afternoon, and so would not get the news you now get?— Our telegraph-offices are open continuously, are they not? 20. We had evidence to the contrary?—l understood it was so. Well, it would put us an hour earlier in everything. 21 Mr Sidey | You said that it would suit you just as well if the Government were to bring you to your offices an hour earlier and allowed you to cease work earlier. Have you considered what effect that would have on the community? For instance, you would have the same meal-hours as before ?—Well, assuming school-hours were not altered, that would be a convenience in a way, because tlie school meal-hours do not suit the office meal-hours at present. 22 In order to bring the community into line, you would have to alter the meal-hours too, would you not?—lt would certainly hardly do to make the morning longer than four hours. Five hours would be rather a long interval between meals. 2.'i. The Chairman.] You recognise that the idea of the Bill is the creation of uniformity?— '' 24 And although it is possible to carry out this reform in sections of the community, it is far preferable to'have a general Bill that will create uniformity throughout the Dominion?—l think it would be much simpler to alter the clock. 25 I//- Sidey 1 You think it would be much more simple to alter the clock than to ask the people to change their habits I— Undoubtedly ; besides, it keeps every scrap of legislation effective— every .special set of hours prescribed everywhere. 26 Mr Fraser.] If sections of the Civil servants, or of various classes of the community, were tn adopt this experiment, would it cause confusion amongst the rest of the public, do you think?— ! should think not Those offices in the Government which deal with the public would have, J presume, lo keep the same hours for their convenience. Otherwise I cannot see how it would affect the public in any way. _ 27 Would it not perhaps be advisable, then, to experiment before making a sudden departure such as this for the whole community?— l certainly think, as far as I know the Civil servants, they would be quite willing to carry out that experiment.

C. E. ADAMS.

1.—15.

28. You think it could be done without inconvenience to the rest of the public?—l certainly think so. 29. Mr. Sidey.] You refer only to those Departments that have not to deal with the public after 4 o'clock?— That is so. 30. The Chairman.] Four o'clock would be the terminating time for all business?— Yes. 31. Mr. Side//.] Do you think that one section of the community attempting this would be sufficient to bring about all the advantages to be gained by it?—No, because, with regard to amusements and so on, the hour would not be altered. We should still have to stay up as late at night. By doing it piecemeal we could not get the same advantages. The great advantage of the Bill, to my mind, is that everything would be an hour earlier, and we should not unduly extend our time of going to bed. 32. Do not some of your members belong to cricket clubs and lawn tennis and other clubs?—■ Yes. 33. Would there be much advantage in a few of the members getting off at 4 o'clock if their club-mates could not join them? It would detract, would it not, from the benefits of the proposal if only a small section were to adopt it in that way?—l should certainly think so. lam certainly much more in favour of the comprehensive scheme in one Act. 34. It would not be a very satisfactory trial of it if only one section of the community adopted it, because you would have to observe the ordinary hours if you went out to amusements and so on? —Yes. Edward Tregeae, Secretary for Labour, examined. (No. 5.) The Chairman: Will you make a statement in connection with this 15111 ? Witness: I wish to speak on the subject almost purely from the industrial point. I find there are so many enactments in different statutes which deal with the hours that unless the clock were put on by Government direction I think there would be a very great deal of confusion, and it would be almost an impossibility to continue. Thus, in the Factories Act, the men's hours arc not limited as to when they shall begin and end, because most of those times arc arranged for by awards of the Arbitration Court; but the women working in factories—and there are many hundreds—must not work later than 6 in the evening or begin work before 8 in the morning, except during certain months, when the Inspector can give them permits to commence at 7. In certain factories —the Kaiapoi factory and one or two others —I believe they do take advantage of that during the summer anil begin work at 7, but as a general rule factories begin at 8. 1 have brought with me a list of certain awards that I just jotted down roughly in which the hours are named. I will hand in this little list. It could be very much supplemented. In the federated boot trade, for instance, the agreement fixes the hours as between 7.30 a.m. and 5.30 p.m. The Wellington Carpenters and Joiners work from 8 a.m. to 5 p.m. during May, June, July, and August, with half an hour for dinner, and for the rest of the year from 7.45 a.m. to 5 p.m., with three-quarters of an hour for dinner. So you sec the hours are named, and it is very important to the men, because they get overtime for even a few minutes' work after these hours. This would not be influenced in the least if the clock were altered. But you were speaking of a partial experiment in the matter. If the Government altered their hours and the others did not, I can see that very serious inconvenience and trouble would arise. 1. Mr. G. M. Thomson.] The Act, as far as women workers are concerned, fixes the hour at 8 o'clock in the morning, you say. Why? —An abuse sometimes occurred. If a woman were allowed to work forty-eight hours a week without such limitation, a certain sort of employer would work her forty-eight hours almost continuously while there was a press of work, and then would not work her at all. 2. If we made this arrangement by means of which we should alter the clock, should we not evade that particular Act and bring the woman there? —I do not think it would evade it. 3. It has nothing to do with the hours at which she gets up in the morning, you think?—l do not think it is so much that as that she shall not work too many hours in one day. That, is the idea. I may say that, though I am not empowered to appear here by any body of workers or employers, I have spoken to a very great many of them on this subject, and they are almost universally favourable to the alteration of the clock by an hour. It would be better for health and recreation, and especially in the matter of the eyesight, which is very much tried now by our working an unnecessary hour by electric light, or in badly lighted factories. The more daylight and tlie better daylight "the people can get, the better it is for them, and there is no doubt that in a New Zealand summer the three hours from 5 in the morning till 8 are infinitely the best part of the day —the brightest and most beautiful. 4. Mr. Sidey.] Do you think there is any danger whatever of the workers' hours of work being lengthened or encroached upon if a proposal'of this sort were brought into effect?—l do not think there is the least danger of their being lengthened. Overtime would have to be paid for. Hut 1 should like you to rely more upon the evidence of the secretaries of workers' unions on a point of that sort. 5. Do you think there would be a tendency to require more overtime from the men? —No, I do not think so. 6. You do not see any disadvantage at all from the worker's point of view'--Nothing lias occurred to me in this matter in regard to the worker that would not be for his benefit. Most of the working-men that I know are up very early in any case. Sometimes they arc standing about in the early morning, sometimes gardening. To get more hours for recreation afterwards and to get better light for their work would be, I think, great advantages.

11

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12

|E. TBEGEAR.

7. You have heard it suggested that, instead of legislating so that the clock shall be altered, the people should alter their habits —that the Government should fix an earlier hour for all the public officers to start work and leave off, and that the whole of the community should come into line, without there being any alteration made in standard time: what do you think of that?—l think it is simply impossible. It is too difficult altogether to alter the customs and habits of the people. I think that any partial experiment, such as the Civil Service adopting this proposal and not the rest of the community would be a failure. 8. Mr. McLaren.] Has the extension of working-hours beyond •"> p.m. been on the-increase or on the decrease.'- The extension was continually on the increase until within the last year or so. During the lasl year business has been so slack in many occupations that there has not been the same pressure for overtime, and it is exceedingly difficult to calculate, because sometimes when people work more overtime at one time of the year, then there is a loss by discharge or half-time at another; there is a minus as well as a plus quantity. Overtime was growing in the Dominion year by year until a year or two ago, and the overtime in most cases had to be paid for extra under some awards, or under the Factories Act, or in some other way; but it grew in spite of that. 9. Mr. Fraser.] If we proceed to deceive ourselves by calling i o'clock s—would that stimulate this process of working overtime, do you think? —I do not think it would affect it at all. It might stimulate it in the building trades perhaps; but then, as the men are paid extra rates for overtime, it is entirely in their province as to whether they accept it or not. 10. Mr. Newman.] Do you not think that the fact of there being more daylight for working in would be an inducement to have more overtime regularly asked for? —I should not like to give a decided opinion, because the future only could show. Ido not know exactly how it would work, but I do not think there would lie any pressure put upon the men to work too long hours. 11. The Chairman.] You believe that the more industry you can get carried on in the daylight, the better it will be for the general health of the community?— Yes, I think so. I think we are fools in departing from the ways of our forefathers in not going to bed when the sun goes down. Why should we ruin our eyes sitting up all night by electric light? 12. You consider it perfectly legitimate for the Government to put the clock on an hour if it is going to be in the interests of industry?— And health. 13. After all, it is not a breach of morality? —No, I think it is a very innocent deception. 1 look upon time as being an artificial convention altogether. 14. Mr. McLaren. | Are there many occupations in which the time of starting is 7 o'clock in the morning?—No, not very many. They almost wholly start at 8. 15. In country work, for instance? —Agricultural work commences as soon as the sun is up. H. G. Warren examined. (No. (i.) 1. The Chairman.] Whom do you represent? —The Employers' Federation. This resolution was passed yesterday: "Thai this meeting approves of the principle of the New Zealand Local Time Hill introduced by Mr. Sidey, and that a delegate be appointed to attend the Committee of the House to-morrow to'state such approval." It was further agreed that I should be the delegate. 2. Now, will you make a statement in connection with the Hill?—At our meeting Mr. Sidey very kindly explained the provisions of his Bill, and his remarks were listened to with very considerable interest by the assembled conference. After Mr. Sidey withdrew, a good deal of discussion ensued, and the proposal contained in Ilie Bill was unanimously accepted as of very great benefit from an industrial point of view to both the employer and the worker. A few members were rather doubtful as to its working in s c directions, principally in connection with Press cables, but that matter was outside of tin' Employers' Federation, and we were all quite agreed that from a health point of view it would be a, very excellent thing. What struck us more than anything was that after the first day nobody would'be any the wiser. The clocks would be set and the people would get up at the same time as they used to' and go t<. work at the same time as before, and they would not be any the wiser at all; but they would be gaining that extra hour of daylight, which would be of very great benefit, and which is"now in nine cases out of ten spent in bed. Personally, 1 am interested in factory labour, and from that point of view I see very great benelits to both sides. 3 Mr. Sidey.] There have been differences of opinion expressed as to how the objects sought to be attained should be carried out. 1 mean, as to whether the people should alter their habits by starting work an hour earlier by the clock, or whether the clock should be altered. Do I. understand that the conference affirmed the accomplishment of the object in view by the method proposed m the Bill—namely, by altering the time?—By altering the time of New Zealand—not by any voluntary alteration. . , 4. Your Federation represents the employers all over the Dominion?—lhe present conference represents some seven thousand employers. ■ - i/,. ( ; !/ Thomson.] Supposing that the Government agreed to the opening of the Government offices at 8 o'clock in the morning and the closing of them at I during the summer months, and your association passed a resolution recommending that all factories should lie opened at I and offices at 8, do you not think the majority of your members would give effect to it?— You mean that the Government would not make any change in the Dominion time? 6 Y T es, they would not alter the clocks?—] am not prepared to give an opinion about that, because that is apart from the question we were discussing. The main advantage of the whole Bill seems to be that the Dominion time would Ik altered—not merely in a few departments or industries but there would be a general alteration of time in the summer. We are all aware that the present time in New Zealand is only a fictitious one. It would not make the slightest difference if it were officially wrong all over the' Dominion, but it must be a general thing.

13

1.—15.

H. G. WABREN.

7. Mr. McLaren,] Is your Federation desirous of seeing the hours of employment now established increased? —My Federation has not suggested that the hours of labour would be increased in the slightest. 8. But is it satisfied with the established hours?—As far as I know, certainly. There was no question raised about that. The fact of the men starting an hour earlier without knowing it would not alter the length of the time they would work; and they would have more liberty at the end of the day for their private affairs or their pleasure. 9. Mr. F ratter.] With regard to cables, both to England and Australia, if Australia altered its time with us, then there would be no confusion or difficulties?—l take it there would still be the same trouble between Australia and other countries. 10. By the proposal contained in this Bill the hour and a half difference between New Zealand and Australia would be made two hours and a half?— Certainly. 11. And that, we have evidence to show, would lead to a certain amount of confusion and tiiiuble. Can you say from your business knowledge whether that would be the case?— Personally, speaking from a business point of view, I do not think it would make very much difference. V 2. Suppose that in the afternoon you wanted to cable over to Sydney and to get-a reply the same day, how would it affect you?—l do not see the bearing of your question. 13. You might not be able to get a reply within the hours when the office would be open? —That is possible, of course. It might happen at the present time. On the whole Ido not think it is a very serious matter. 14. There would be one hour's less chance of getting it?— That is so. If). In parts of the country where the telegraph-office closes at 5 o'clock, that would be still more accentuated, because it is only in the large towns where the telegraph-office is open after s?— Equally so, they would get their telegrams an hour earlief in the morning. 16. You admit there might be the trouble I speak of?— Yes, 1 can see that, but I think that is outweighed by the advantages on the other side. George Hogben, Inspector-General of Schools, examined. (No. 7.) The Chairman: Will you make a statement, Mr. Hogben. Witness: I should like to say, in the first place, that I do not come as an advoacte for either one side or the other. I am, however, strongly in favour of using all the daylight we can. Having had to watch for a great many years a certain section of the community at work, and having had raised also in my mind the question of overstrain, I believe that whatever overstrain takes place in regard to education is due far more to the use of artificial light than to all the other causes put together. That includes home lessons, which 1 need not refer to particularly now. The fact that at the age of growth people use artificial light throws on certain sets of their nerves such an enormous strain that lam quite sure their efficiency in after-life is injured. I think the nervous strain and physical strain is really largely in consequence of the strain on the eyes, and if we could work in the daylight as much as possible instead of at night —of course, it is impossible that we should be able to do all our work in the daylight—it would be of great benefit to us. It has seemed to me that that was one important aspect of the matter, but the point is quite distinct from the means that are taken to get more daylight. There is also the question of how much daylight there is People have not got the clear ideas they might have about the amount of daylight that is available for certain purposes. For instance, there is a tendency to speak of our time as an arbitrary thing. It is not an arbitrary thing at all. The particular moment we fix you might call arbitrary, but New Zealand time is not arbitrary. It is eleven hours and a half east of Greenwich Now," the reason for that is that noon is approximately the centre of the day. The mean noon all the year round is exactly the centre of the day. That is taking the middle of the day for the clock and in New Zealand the middle of the day for the clock at Christchurch is actually right. So our time is taken as that of 172£°, because that was assumed to be right for the average of places in New Zealand, and it happens that it is not exactly right for the average of places in New Zealand : 180° would be almost as near for the average of the working-places in New Zealand. I think that something like two-thirds of New Zealand is east of 1721°, and a very strong argument indeed it would be for making out time twelve hours ahead of Greenwich. The clock is wrong tor the whole of the North Island. At Napier it is wrong by eighteen minutes, and at Gisborne a little more. So that if we altered that we should gain half an hour all the year round. Mr. G. M. Thomson: It ought to be done, anyway. Witness ■ Yes from a scientific point of view I think that ought to be done in any case, and it almost seems'to me that is the first thing to do, and then we may see what the effect on the habits of the people would be. With regard to the hours of daylight, Mr. Adams presented a diagram that shows at Wellington—one place—the time between sunrise and sunset; but, as everybody knows, tint is not the full extent of daylight. You cannot take the full extent of twilight either, because the last part of twilight in the evening and the first part in the morning is too dark for any ordinary work or outside exercise. Most outdoor exercises depend on quickness of vision to a certain extent, and you would be trying the vision just as you would by working atnight. So the usual convention is to take half-way between morning twilight-commonly called daybreak-and sunrise for the beiHnnin"- of daylight, and half-way between sunset and actual nightfall—that is, the last of the twilight—for the end of daylight. " I have therefore prepared a table showing, at Invercargill, Dunedin, Christchurch, Wellington, Napier, and Auckland, at the four times of the year, midsummer midwinter, the spring equinox, and the autumn equinox—showing when twilight begins,

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the time of sunrise, the time of sunset, and when twilight ends; and then taking half-way between, and showing when daylight begins and when it ends. [Table produced.] The first period taken in the winter solstice. Now, there is considerable difference in longitude in the different parts of New Zealand. Take these towns, for instance—Napier is 177° east, and Invercargill 168£° east — that is to say, there is 34' difference of true local time between these places. The time of sunset in winter is very close all over New Zealand according to the clock, but it is not really according to the local places' own time. So this happens to be a very convenient standard, due to the formation of New Zealand more than anything else. If you take the beginning of daylight, it only differs by 50' between Auckland and Invercargill. This, I may say, means daylight in the open air, not in a dark room. You will see that it begins at 7.12 on the shortest day. If you come to spring-time you see that then daylight begins at 5.31 in Invercargill and ends at 7.17, and it begins only a very little earlier in Auckland. The times are very near together, so that there is this argument in favour of uniformity. Right in midsummer no difficulty arises at all, but the benefit of this Bill would be greatest in September and October, say, greater than it would be in December. There is so much daylight then that there is enough for anything. Any ordinary game would not last, generally, longer than about two hours, we will say, and there would be any amount of time for that in the middle of summer. In the months between spring-time and midsummer, and between midsummer and autumn, you would gain most by altering the clock, because the time of daylight ending is too near the office or workshop closing-time. Ido not want to dwell too much on the figures. Unfortunately none of the almanacs give the information, and it meant a good deal of work to get it out. I could get it out for any other month if desirable. 1. The Chairman.] It was stated by a witness that an alteration by two hours was too great a move to make, on account of the extremes of the six-months period, when the contraction of the light was so great. One hour seems to fit in very well I —Yes. As far as the alteration of our habits is concerned, I think there is no doubt whatever that most of us could gain one hour of daylight for our work for about nine months of the year if we chose to alter our habits. 1 take it that this Bill is a deliberate attempt on the part of the whole community to alter its habits at the same time. 2. Uniformity is the idea? —There is no uniformity now, and I do not know that you would get any uniformity then. The only places where there is uniformity is in the trades in which by law they must begin or end certain things at a certain time. 3. That helps to solidify the habits of the people? —Yes, well, it may do so. Ido not see any general uniformity at present, and Ido not think this would bring about uniformity. It would bring about a uniform change. 4. The idea is a uniform reform?— But then you have not got uniformity now. 5. Mr. Sidey.] It would bring about a uniform change in the habits of the people?— Well, would it? 6 The Chairman.] The evidence is against sectional change?—lf you go back fifty years, you will find that without any alteration of the clock the habits of the people have altered very consider.ably If you did alter the clock now, you might find it necessary to alter it another hour after another fifty years During the last two centuries the people have been getting later and later in their habits. "I do not see that altering the clock would check that tendency. I regard it as one of the consequences of aggregation in cities. 7. Mr. Sidey.] According to your table you reckon that daylight in Dunedin ends at 5.11) in midwinter ? —Yes. 8 Do you mean to say that at 5.19 in midwinter in Dunedin it would be light enough to do any outdoor work of any kind, or follow any kind of sport?—s.l9 is the time daylight would end. That would have to be the end of the sport. 9. You are a bowler, are you not?— Yes. 10 We do not play bowls in the winter-time, but I suppose that for the purposes of this schedule either winter or summer will be the same as far as the ending of daylight is concerned?— Yes '11 Would you say that it would be light enough to play a game of bowls up till the time indicated here as the end of daylight ?—That depends on the clearness of the atmosphere as well as the amount of light. I could not answer for the clearness of the atmosphere m Dunedin in winter. 12. Take the summer-time now in Dunedin. In the middle of summer daylight does not end till 9.lß?—That is bo. _ . 13 I have calculated that probably for two months in the summer-time in Dunedin, it this Bill became'law, we should be able to play bowls uptill half-past 9. Should I not be well within the mark in stating that?— Yes. You can do it now. U. I mean in two months from the beginning of December till the end of January ?—Yes, that 15 Take Wellington Should Ibe correct in saying that under the altered conditions brought about by the Bill you could play bowls for two months in the year up to 9 o'clock?—Oh, yes !if you ■iltered'the clock, "or if you altered your habits so that you could use that twilight. I should like to Bay that this daylight-beginning" and daylight-ending is taken on the usual convention. You will find that the same convention was adopted in the inquiry on the Imperial Bill—the convention that daylight begins half-way between daybreak and sunrise, and that it ends half-way between sunset and the end of twilight. That is the convention. lam not answerable for that, lhis table is approximately astronomically true, but does not allow for the clearness or otherwise of the atmosphere, or for corrections due to refraction at sunrise and sunset.

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16. Mr. G. M. Thomson.] As an educational authority, do j r ou not think it an important thing that children should be taught how time is arrived at —that it is not, as some people imagine, an arbitrary thing?— Yes. 17. If you were endeavouring on a summer morning to teach them how noon was arrived at, do you not think it would be an extremely awkward thing for you to have to go into a laborious explanation to show that, though a particular time of the day was noon, yet we had deceived ourselves into calling it 11 o'clock?—l do not see very great difficulty about that, because observations taken at a certain time of the year would now be half an hour out in certain parts. Ido not see any difficulty about making it ninety minutes instead of thirty. If you are going to be exact at all you must make a correction and explain to them why you take them out to observe the sun's altitude, for instance, at 12.30 instead of 12, at Invercargill on certain days of the year. 18. It would be a big shock to the faith of the children. Do you not think that would be the effect? —I do not know. Children are not so easily shocked. 19. Do you not think that would be the effect, when you were teaching them what is strictly a scientific fact and you have to explain that we have agreed to humbug ourselves to this extent?— l do not sec a teaching difficulty. You have got to make some corrections now. When the child was very young you would have to give up calling 12 o'clock " noon " to him. 20. But this introduces a very radical alteration, and only for a portion of the year?— Yes; to that extent you would have an additional element of correction to make, but I do not think it would be difficult. 21. The, Chairman.] It would not be a very hard matter to give the reason for it?—l do not think it would. The way I would do it would be to keep in the school a clock showing the actual mean local time. 22. Mr. Fraxer.] I understood you to say that the mean time adopted now is not the most suitable mean time for New Zealand?— What I mean is this: that for something like a third of New Zealand 180° would be just as good as and that it would not inconvenience the remainder of New Zealand, and we should then be keeping to the true hour-zone method. At the present time we are an exception to the hour-zone method. We have made a half-hour zone —a zone that has its medial point at the half-hour instead of at the hour. That is different from nearly all t lie rest of the world. 23. If we altered the mean time of New Zealand by half an hour, should we be as scientifically correct for our mean time as at present?—l should like to know whether you mean for the majority of the population. 24. 1 mean, having regard to the bulk of the area and population of the country?—l should like to take the figures out to find where the middle line of population came, first; it comes between the two, somewhere. If you take a meridian to divide equally the population through it would come between the two. The present standard meridian for New Zealand goes nearly through Christchurch, north and south. 25. My reason for including the area is this : If we are going to fix our mean time with reference only to the population as at present distributed, it would not be correct, perhaps, fifty years hence?— That is so; if most of the increase of population took place in the North Island, the population meridian would move to the east. 26. You must take both into consideration, because there is possibility of expansion of population in areas where now it is very small?— That is so. You see there is an agreement among all countries to take hour zones. New Zealand, South Australia, and two other places were expressly excepted from that agreement, and allowed to take half-hour zones. So that at the present time, unless we are going to cut ourselves away from the standard time agreement of the world, we shall have to take either the half-hour zone, as we do now, or the hour. If we took the hour zone of 180°, we should be doing like other people. It is not an arbitrary thing altogether, because the correspondence of Ihe sun with the true time is more or less important. Noon is the centre of the day, anil for these reasons I should be against the alteration of the clock. 27. Generally speaking, if we altered our mean time by half an hour, we should be very nearly as accurate as we are under our present mean time?—ln the North Island we should be practically as accurate. In the north-east part of the South Island we should be practically as accurate, or very nearly so ; but in the south part of the South Island we should not be so accurate. As a matter of fact, however, it would be a gain even there in the direction of giving more daylight. 28. Mr. Sidey.] I understand your suggestion is rather to meet the average population as ,it present existing?— When I was asked where the centre of population would be I said I should like to investigate the matter first. 29. Is not the present New Zealand mean time fixed because it is the mean time between that of thr most extreme westerly and that of the most extreme easterly portions of New Zealand?—lt is nearly the mean. 30. It is much nearer than it would be if you made it the meridian of 180°? —Yes, it is much more nearly equally between the extreme positions now. 31. To whom do we owe the fixing of the eleven hours and a half ahead of Greenwich? Is it not to Sir James Hector?-—I could not say. 32. The idea in fixing it'was that it was the mean between the extremes of east and west of New Zealand? —I dare say. Ido not know. It is very nearly the mean between the two, but as a matter of fact if you consider population it is more nearly the mean for the South Island. The present meridian is outside the North Island. As far as the North Island is concerned, 180° is just a little to the east of it and 172J° is just to the west of it.

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Sunlight, Daylight, and Twilight at certain Places in New Zealand at the Solstices and Equinoxes.

Thursday, 25th November, 1909. (Mr. Mander, Acting-Chairman.) Alexander Paul, Senior Relieving Officer, Inspectors' Department, Bank of New South Wales. (No. 8.) 1. Mr. Sidey.] Does your bank have very frequent oable communication witli its head office in New South Wales?—No, not very frequent. 2. Have you as much cable business as the other banks?—l could not say. We are the largest institution on the other side, and I dare say we ought to have as much. 3. You would naturally suppose that you would have quite as much? —Yes. 4. You know what the proposal contained in this Hill is—to advance the time one hour in the spring and set it back again one hour in the autumn?— Yes. 5. What we want to know more particularly from you is whether that would cause the bank any inconvenience in connection with cables between you and your head ofh'ce in Sydney?— None whatever, we consider. 6. You understand what it would mean, that whereas at the present time a cable sent from here at half past 11 would reach them at their opening-hour—lo o'clock—under the altered conditions you could not send a cable to them under half past 12?— Yes. 7. It would mean that, while they would <ret the cable at an early hour, they would have one hour less in which to reply?—l quite understand that. 8. But, notwithstanding that, you consider there would lie no material inconvenience?— There would not, as far as our institution is concerned. 9. Do you think the public who do business with you would be inconvenienced to any extent?— Not to any. extent —in fact, 1 do not think that they would he inconvenienced at all, because the communications are only very few.

InverCiirgill. Dunedin. Christchurch. Wellington. Napier. Auckland. Latitude Longitude .. 401° 168|° 46° 170|° 43i° 172?° 41 ; .° 175° 30", ° 177° 37° 175° Winter, June 22— Twilight begins .. Sunrise Sunset Twilight ends 6.11 8.7 4.29 6.25 6.6 7.57 4.23 6.14 5.50 7.10 4.24 6.14 5.47 7.23 4.21 5.59 5.43 7.8 4.20 5.46 5.31 7.8 4.36 6.15 Daylight begins ,, ends .. 7.9 5.27 7.4 5.19 6.45 5.19 6.35 5.10 6.25 5.3 6.20 5.25 Summer, December 21— Twilight begins .. Sunrise Sunset Twilight ends 1.28 4.25 8.3 11.0 1.29 4.19 7.53 10.43 1.53 4.20 7.36 10.3 2.1 4.28 7.18 9.35 2.9 4.16 7.4 9.11 2.34 4.32 7.4 9.2 Daylight begins „ ends .. 2.57 9.31 2.54 9.18 3.7 8.50 3.15 8.26 3.13 8.8 3.33 8.3 'pring, September 23— Twilight begins .. Sunrise Sunset Twilight ends 4.37 6.24 6.24 8.11 4.30 6.16 6.16 8.2 4.27 6.8 6.8 7.49 4.20 5.58 5.58 7.36 4.15 5.50 5.50 7.25 4.27 5.58 5.58 7.29 Daylight begins „ ends .. 5.31 7.17 5.23 7.9 5.18 6.58 5.9 6.47 5.3 6.37 5.13 6.43 Mtumn, March 21 As for S pring (wi thin one minute). Daylight is assumed to begin half-way between morn between sunset and twilight (nightfall). ill times are N.Z.M.T., 11 j hours east of Greenwich. .n calculating the times of sunrise and sunset, no allowai ling twiligl ht (daybrf :ak) and sunrise, am to end ialf-way nee has bee in made fo: ■ refraction.

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10. Mr. Fraser.] You do not think that the alteration which would result from this Bill becoming law would in any way inconvenience the banking community or the public dealing with the banks?—No, I do not think it would at all. 11. Mr. G. M. Thomson.] In the event of a general resolution being come to to open business premises an hour earlier, the same result would be achieved? It could be arranged that the Civil servants should commence their work one hour earlier during the summer months, that the schools should open one hour earlier, and that business premises should open one hour earlier; and the same result would be achieved? —Yes. 1 am not giving any opinion regarding the Bill, as to whether we think it, desirable or otherwise, unless you ask me the question. 12. Mr. Sidey.] Have you considered generally the difficulties in the way of introducing a scheme of the kind, apart from legislation as proposed in this Bill? —No, I have not. 13. The Chairman.] Do you think that trade generally would adjust itself to the new conditions? —I think so. Harold Sewallis Blackburnb, Captain, Nautical Adviser to the Marine Department. (No. 9.) 1. The Chairman.] Would you like to make a statement?— No. I am prepared to answer questions. 2. Mr. Sidey.] You know what the proposal is that is contained in the Bill before us?— Yes. I understand it is to put the clock on an hour on the last Sunday in September, and to put it back to New Zealand mean time again on the last Sunday in March. 3. What the Committee want more particularly to know from you is what effect this would have upon shipping—whether any inconvenience would be likely to be caused to the shipping, or whether any confusion would be likely to result from that arrangement?—l should say, almost none. In connection with the tides, I think that at first there would, in all probability, be some little inconvenience caused, and occasionally mistakes made; but I do not think there is likely to be much inconvenience. If I were a harbourmaster I think I should keep my clock at New Zealand mean time in order to save confusion. Some one, knowing there is an hour difference, might make the correction plus instead of minus, if you did not do that. It would save all difficulty if harbourmasters at tidal harbours were to be instructed to , keep their clocks as they are at present, because we cannot alter tide-tables very well. If the proposal were in vogue, of course we could put a note at the bottom of the tide-table to warn about this. 4. If this principle were adopted, might not the practice arise of showing opposite the time of the tide the local time? Probably both would be shown? —In the tide-tables we must keep it New Zealand mean time. We could make a note, if it were established, at the bottom of the tide-tables that in certain months of the year the local time was an hour ahead of New Zealand mean time. 5. Speaking generally, you think there need not be any fear of any loss or accident occurring through the introduction of this principle ?—I do not think it is likely, but I could not guarantee that there might not be some mistake made which might cause, or be brought in as causing, an accident. Ships coming to the colony for the first time would naturally keep the usual time. They would not put their clock on until they got to the Dominion, and they would be all right as far as the tide-tables are concerned. It is ships leaving New Zealand that would be affected, and then the harbourmaster is mostly concerned, and if he were instructed to keep his clock at ordinary New Zealand mean time things would work all right — at least I should say so. Of course there might be mistakes made. There would almost certainly be some mistakes made by some man forgetting the difference in time. I think thai in connection with the tides there will be some inconvenience. 6. Do you think that the inconvenience caused to the shipping in the way you have mentioned would be of so serious, a character as to be an argument against the making of the change at all?— I should not say so, if material benefit would accrue to the majority of the people. I have not gone into that phase of the matter. Personally I should prefer things to remain as they are. I am thinking of housewives and servants, and the working-people who have to get their breakfast at 7. They will have to get up in the dark a good deal longer in the year than they do now. The proposal, however, is, I suppose, mainly in the interests of those seeking recreation in the open air, and I think they are well in the majority in this country. 7. It is only a comparative few who get up very early to take their recreation before their wor k ?—I suppose so. Of course there are some who go in for gardening in the morning. 8 They could do it in the evening just as well?— That may be. I have not really gone into the question, and do not know how many it would benefit or how many it would not; but as far as shipping is concerned Ido not think there is any very strong reason against it. The tides are the principal thing. Ido not think it would make any difference as regards the position of a ship —the latitude at noon—because on the coast we very seldom lake astronomical observations, and vessels coming in from the sea are constantly altering their time, and they all have chronometers. I am referring now to intercolonial and foreign-going vessels. They keep, as a rule, not mean time but what wo call apparent time —that is, sun time. 9. Are chronometers not all set from Greenwich time?—Oh, yes! There is a book which gives you the error of Greenwich time. No chronometer keeps exact time. 10 Mr Fraser.] The position would be this, then, would it not? that the almanac would show a certain hour for high tide, and the man's watch, if it were set to local time, would not be in conformity with the time so shown ?—That is so. 11 Then the probabilities are that it would be more inconvenient for local traders than for those coming from a distance, as the former would probably bo keeping their watches by local time apart entirely from any time which the harbourmaster might keep?— Yes, that is so. There would be bound to be some little inconvenience, and a man might make a mistake; but in a year or two they would all know. 3—L 15.

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12. It has been stated by one witness that the mean time which we have adopted in New Zealand is scarcely the mean time for the whole of New Zealand, more especially for the North Island ?—lt is a very good mean, I think. There is about a quarter of an hour's difference, 1 think. 13. If it were decided to make an alteration in what has been adopted as mean time of, say, half an hour or so, that would do away with the whole difficulty about the almanacs, I presume, because the almanacs show high tide and low tide according to mean time, do they not! — According to New Zealand mean time, yes. 14. If the mean time were altered, then the almanacs would have to be altered in conformity therewith ?—Oh, yes ! 15. That being done, the inconvenience that you spoke about would not arise?— Just so, if you made the alteration for the whole twelve months. If you alter the meridian, of course that means you are altering the mean time altogether. I think our mean time is a very fair average. It is 172° 30', and of course it is a little further off for places to the eastward than to the westward. 1 do not remember how many minutes, but it may be twenty minutes out, there. The only places far to the westward are down the Bluff way and almost uninhabited places— the West Coast Sounds. 16. Mr. G. U. Thomson.'] It is the case, is it not, that in our bar harbours high tide should be taken advantage of for the departure of vessels?— Certainly. 17. If two times were kept, I take it that harbourmasters might easily fall into an error there? —It is quite possible. The safeguards would be for the harbourmaster to keep his clock as it is. 18. A vessel might be timed to leave at, say, 12 o'clock local time, when all the while the harbourmaster has his own time, as it were, for the vessel to leave, and it might lead to confusion and, possibly, to accident? —I do not think there is much likelihood of accident, because the vessel would not leave unless the harbourmaster gave permission. With vessels coming in, the captain, of oourse, will have his own time. But, knowing what human nature is, I think there is almost bound to be some little inconvenience about the tides to start with. 11). It would introduce, at any rate, an element of danger—an element of confusion?— Certainly an element of confusion. A man might lose his tide if he had forgotten the difference between the two times. There would be that risk until things got into working-order. 20. Mr. Sifley.] You think that the inconvenience caused is only likely to be at the commencement '!— 1 should say so — for the first year or two. They would forget at first, but I suppose the matter would be talked about a good deal, and they would soon get used to it. 21. Mr. Fraser.] You said just now that there might bo danger of a man losing his tide. Alight there not be danger of a man losing his vessel? —I could not say positively that there would not, but I do not think there would be. 22. Mr. Sidey.] Has there been any expression of opinion at all on the part of captains about this proposal?—l have not spoken to them about it —hardly at all. 23. The Chairman.] Do you think there is any necessity for interfering with the clocks at all? Do you not think it would be better to start work an hour earlier and not interfere with the clocks? For years in the bush we have had our clocks kept an hour ahead and so started an hour earlier, but 1 have always thought it a silly thing to regulate the clocks instead of regulating the men. 1 do not see why they should not start at 7 o'clock instead of 8, without interfering with the clock?— Just so. Of course lam not concerned one way or the other. I have not thought much about the alteration. Personally I would prefer not to make it. 24. But could it be worked as well without interfering with the clock in any way —I mean if the various Departments started their work an hour earlier? —I fancy you would have more objection to that. Nautical Adviser's Office, Customhouse, Wellington, 27th November, 1909. Dear Sir, — Since reading over the evidence I gave before you on Thursday I examined the charts to see exactly what difference in time there is between the extreme cast and west points of the Dominion. According to the Admiralty charts East Cape is in longitude 178° 34J' E., and the extreme south-west corner of the Doininion is in longitude IGG° 27' E., making a difference of longitude respectively in each case of 6° 4J' and 6° 3', equal in time to 24 minutes 18 seconds and 24 minutes 12 seconds. We may therefore consider that the mean time is as evenly divided as it is possible to be in round numbers. Auckland is almost exactly in the same longitude as Wellington —viz., 9 minutes ahead of New Zealand mean time, but Cape Maria van Diemen is in longitude 172° 39' E., only about half a minute ahead of mean time. For the good of the Dominion, if a change is desirable for the matter of gaining more daylight for the majority of the people, I consider that far the best way would be to follow the suggestion of Mr. Adams —viz., to alter our meridian from 11 hours 30 minutes to 12 hours. No confusion or risk would be attended with this change, and it would mean a saving of daylight in the afternoon of 30 minutes all the year round, with, of course, a corresponding loss of daylight in the early morning. I back up Mr. Adams's suggestion very disinterestedly, as personally I should be very sorry for such a change, being an early riser, generally getting up at 5 a.m., and consequently 1 always look forward to the time when I can get up in daylight. I have, &c, Harold Sewaltjs Blackburne. The Chairman of the New Zealand Local Time Bill.

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C. W. Adams examined. (No. 10.)' The Chairman: Would you like to make a statement, Mr. Adams? Witness: Yos, I should. I should like, very shortly, to give you the history of our present mean time. On the 12th October, 1868 (forty-one years ago), Sir James Hector read a paper at the Wellington Philosophical Institute on " New Zealand Mean Time," in which he proposed that New Zealand should adopt as one standard time for the whole colony eleven hours and a half in advance of, or east of, Greenwich. On his advice the New Zealand Government adopted this standard time, and it has remained in force till the present. But at a Conference held some years later (I think in London) by representatives from all parts of the world it was unanimously resolved that the standard time for each country, or section of a country, should be some whole number of hours east —or in advance of—or west —that is, later than —Greenwich time. Up to the present about fifty countries or divisions of the earth's surface have adopted standard times. Of the thirty-six countries east of Greenwich, only four have adopted the half-hour, and of twelve west of Greenwich they have all adopted whole hours, except the Sandwich Islands and Samoa. lam strongly in favour of using more daylight and less artificial light, and my proposal is to adopt as the standard time of New Zealand 12 hours in advance of Greenwich. The proposed Bill, 1 understand, puts the clock forward one hour during summer, and back again one hour during winter. But half an hour for twelve months will effect the same " saving of daylight " as a whole hour for six months, and with much less inconvenience to the public; while I think that putting back the clock would be a most dangerous experiment. It would also press very hardly on bakers and milkmen, who at present have to get up very early. But to my mind the greatest danger to be apprehended would be from railway accidents. Among the inconveniences is the putting back the clock at the beginning of winter. Putting a clock forward is easy enough, but putting it backward is very liable to derange the striking apparatus. If we had an appalling railway accident as a consequence of passing the present Bill, it would, no doubt, be repealed at once; and I myself have no doubt that if it is passed this session it will in any case be repealed next session. On the other hand, adopting 12 hours east as the New Zealand standard time would have everything to recommend it. It would be far better for health,' and would save half an hour every day in the year in the cost of artificial light. I may state that it is the usual custom with a great many sawmills and other factories to begin work half an hour earlier in the winter, making the hours 7.30 to 4.30 instead of 8 till 5. It is important to have good light in a sawmill and in every factor)- in order to prevent accidents. In Loomis's Treatise on Astronomy it is stated that the duration of twilight in the latitude of 4.-o°, which is nearly that of Wellington, New Zealand, in March and September would be an hour and a half, while at midwinter and midsummer it would be two hours. In a diagram that I have prepared I have allowed for only half of the these quantities —viz., threequarters of an hour in March and September, and one hour at midsummer and midwinter. The diagram thus sshows the duration of daylight throughout the year supposing wo adopted as New Zealand standard time 12 hours east. My proposal is not in antagonism to the present Bill, but accomplishes the same purpose in a slightly different manner. If my proposal does not give suilicient daylight for athletic sports, &c, in summer-time, it will be quite easy then to take another hour or half-hour on the lines of the present Bill. I produce the diagram, and a list of standard times all over the world. [Documents handed in.] 1. Mr. Side//.~\ I understand from a remark of yours that there is no objection to the proposal contained in this Bill from a scientific point of view?—l do not like the idea. The same object could be effected by making up our minds to do things half an hour earlier; but the general public perhaps would not do that. 2. You mean that they should alter their habits? —Yes. 3. Do you think it possible to get all the people to alter their habits at one time?—l think the best way would be to make an alteration in the standard time. i. You went on further to say that, even supposing the alteration in the standard time were made, it would only give another half-hour in the evening, and that a further half-hour or hour might be added in accordance with the proposal in the Bill, so as to give additional time in the evening? —Yes, I said that if you made this half-hour alteration and found then that you wanted more, you could consider it. 5. You see no very strong objection, then, to the proposal?— Not a very strong objection, but 1 think it might end in a railway disaster. 6. What makes you think it might end in a railway disaster? —I mean, when the change takes place. 7. But there is no change in the time-tables? —You see you have got to alter all your clocks, and one stationmaster might forget to do so. If one man started half an hour too soon for the other there might be an accident, or if you put the clock right and the striking apparatus was not altered accordingly it might lead to accidents. 8. You know that the alteration takes place on Sunday?—l believe so, and 1 do not think we should get used to the alteration, because it would occur again in an opposite direction every six months. 9. The risk of mistake is minimised, is it not, by the fact that the alteration conies into effect on Sunday? —Certainly. That is the best time for it. 10. With regard to the alteration of half an hour that you suggest in our time, are you not aware that in the South —say, in Dunedin —we do not really have daylight in midwinter until after half past 7?—lt is pretty late I know, but, on the other hand, darkness comes on proportionately sooner in the evening. 11. Do you know that we have to light the gas in our offices before 5 o'clock?—Oh, certainly!

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[C. W. ADAMS

12. What I want to know is, where is the advantage of making people rise half an hour earlier in Dunedin in the winter, when we have practically to gei up in tin. , dark now?—lt is an advantage for all factories and sawmills. They start earlier, and thus make the beginning and ending of their work more nearly agree with the beginning and ending of daylight. 13. You are speaking of Wellington?—l think it is the same in Otago. 14. Not in winter-time. Is it not a fact that the sun rises considerably earlier in Wellington than in Dunedin in winter-time? —Certainly. 15. The point I want to make is this: What would be the advantage in a place like Dunedin of making us rise half an hour earlier in the winter, when we have already to rise in the dark for a very considerable period? —it would just equalise (he time they would have to be in the dark, instead of having an hour at night and only half an hour in the morning. They would have it the same both ways, as half past 7 is four hours and a half before noon, and half past 4 is four hours and a half after noon. 16. Your chief reason for urging that we should alter our mean time to 12 hours east of Greenwich is because of the Conference to which you referred—that other countries have agreed, instead of dividing the hour, to adopt whole hours? —Yes, we should come into line better. It is easier to count whole hours than half-hours. They divided Australia at first into 8 hours, 9 hours, and 10 hours; and they have altered the middle one to 9j. The meridian now adopted by South Australia is quite outside the boundary altogether—eighty-five miles across the border into Victoria. 17. At any rate, I understand you are in favour of the objects of the Bill—you think it desirable to have more daylight in the evenings? —Certainly, I think it would be much better for health. 18. Mr. G. M. Thomson.] Do 3 - ou think that if the Civil servants, the Education Boards, and, say, the Employers' Association all agreed to commence work one hour earlier in the summer months the same effect would be achieved? —Certainly. It has been done already. The Civil Service hours used to be from 10 to 4, then they got a little longer, and now they are from i) to 5. 19. Do you know anything about the system adopted in Switzerland in the summer months? — I do not. 20. Mr. Side//.] Supposing that Mr. Thomson's suggestion were given effect to, and that the office hours of the Government and the general public were altered in the summer, it would also necessitate an alteration of all time-tables and meal-hours? —It would alter the meal-hours, perhaps. 21. And time-tables?— l think it would be very dangerous to alter the time-tables, and not necessary, if the standard time for New Zealand was altered from 11A hours in advance of Greenwich to 12 hours in advance of Greenwich. List of Standard Times. The following standard times, referred to the meridian of Greenwich, have been adopted for railway and other purposes : — H. m. 11 30 E. New Zealand. 10 0 E. Victoria, New South Wales, Queensland, Tasmania. 9 30 E. South Australia. 9 0 E. Japan, Korea. 8 0 E. West Australia, Hong Kong, Philippine Islands, British North Borneo, Labuan. 7 0 E. Straits Settlements. 6 30 E. Burma. 5 30 E. India. 4 0 E. Mauritius, Seychelles. 2 0 E. (East Europe) Bulgaria, lloumania, Eastern Turkey, South Africa, Egypt, Portuguese East Africa. 1 0 E. (Mid Europe) Germany, Luxembourg, Austria, Hungary, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Switzerland, Italy, Bosnia, Servia, Western Turkey, Malta. 0 0 (Greenwich) Great Britain, Belgium, Holland, Spain, Gibraltar. 4 OW. (Atlantic) Maritime Provinces of Canada. 5 0 W. (Eastern) Western Labrador, Quebec, Ontario to 82° 30' W., Eastern Zone of United States, Panama. 6 OW. (Central) Central Zones of Canada and United States. 7 0 W. (Mountain) Mountain Zones of Canada and United States. 8 OW. (Pacific) British Columbia and Pacific Zone of United States. 9 OW. (Yukon). 10 30 W. Sandwich Islands. II 30 W. Samoa. [See Diagram II opposite.]

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Diagram No. 11, showing the Duration of Daylight and Time of Sun's Rising and Setting throughout the Year at Wellington, New Zealand, on the Assumption that New Zealand Standard Time has been put on Half an Hour, to make it 12 Hours in advance of Greenwich.

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James Mclntosh, Manager of Messrs. Dalgety and Co.'s Wellington Branch, examined. (No. 11.) 1. Mr. Sidey,] I understand that your firm have large dealings with Australia? —Yes. 2. Your firm, 1 suppose, have probably as many cable communications with Australia as most firms? —I should say so: 3. What we want to find out is whether you think the introduction of this system of putting the clock on during the summer would to any extent inconvenience your firm in its dealings with Australia and your brandies there I—The1 —The difference in time now is an hour and a half, and if you put the clods on another hour it would mean two hours and a half difference. That would make a slight inconvenience perhaps, but nothing of any moment. I. Do you think that, in the matter of obtaining money through the banks, there would be any serious inconvenience? —I should not think so. 5. Mr. Eraser.] Would this alteration of the clock cause any inconvenience in the matter of cabling to Australia and in getting a reply ?—There is just this : that you would be an hour further apart than yon are at present, and that of course would make some slight difference under certain ciroumstanoes. But, speaking generally, I can see no inconvenience of any moment. 6. Suppose, for instance, there is something you wish to know definitely and you cable to Sydney and desire a reply the same day; you have less time to get your reply in?— Yes; but, on the other hand, if you were asking a question you would send it away an hour earlier, so one would make up for the other. Ido not think, therefore, that it would make any material difference. 7. I suppose that very often you send a cable, not at any particular hour of your own choosing, but during the day, when the occasion arises? —That is so. 8. If that occasion arose within one hour of your closing, you would have an hour less in which to get your reply?— Yes. At the same time the occasion would arise automatically an hour earlier, because people would come in an hour earlier. . i). You do not think, then, that the alteration of the law would in any way inconvenience the business of your firm?— Not to any extent. 10. Or," as far as you know, the business of other firms?— No. Martin Chapman, K.C., examined. (No. 12.) The Chairman : We shall be glad to hear you, Mr. Chapman. Witness: Perhaps you will allow me first to make a remark about that last question put to Mr Molntosh I would point out that the inconvenience will not bo to the New Zealand merchant, but to the Sydney merchant, who, when he sends his reply or his inquiry, will find the New Zealand oilice closed an hour earlier than before. That, of course, if it is an inconvenience, will exist. Mr. Sidey: I think that perhaps Mr. Chapman might make a statement with regard to this Bill He knows what the proposal is, I understand? Witness : Yes, I have read the Bill. I examined the first clause with the scientific tacts, and 1 found that it was correct, 1 presumed that it was originally, because 1 suppose it was originally devised by a scientific man. I understand I am asked whether there is any scientific objection— that is to say, whether scientific men in any branch of science would find any inconvenience. My opinion is that they would not. As far as scientific men are concerned, 1 will consider first those who are concerned'with astronomy. That includes navigation. A standard clock at an observatory is the clock (1 n which they rely, and from which all other clocks are set. That is the standard clock and that is set to what is known as " sidereal time." Sidereal time differs altogether from the time that is recorded on ordinary clocks, but it is a time that is easily ascertained. A sidereal day is the time from one transit of a star to the next transit of the same star, and it is always the same, whereas the interval between two transits of the sun is not always the same. The clock keeps local sidereal time. Now you see the difference. 1 have brought a clock with the face like that of an astronomical clock. You will see that the hour hand makes one revolution in twenty-tour hours, and that the clock face is marked from 1 to 24. [Clock exhibited.] Not only does it go from 1 to 24, but the time taken in making a revolution, instead of being 24 hours, is 24 hours less 3 minutes 56 seconds Now, that is the time that the astronomer goes by. He makes his observations by that time You see it is absolutely independent of anything you put man Act of Parliament, lnut will not affect him at all. A navigator has his chronometers set to Greenwich mean time and they are never set to any other time. Greenwich mean time is the time that a well-rated clock shows at Greenwich. That is the Greenwich mean time, not the sidereal time nor the time naturally indicated by the sun, which varies, but an imaginary time which is called mean time. lhat is the time that a ship's chronometer shows. When a captain of a ship wants to know the time here it is for the purpose of rating his chronometer—that is to say, for the purpose of ascertaining what error there is in the rate at which his chronometer goes. For that purpose he watches the tall of the time-ball. That time-ball is dropped at a moment. It may be any moment of the day; it does not matter what moment it is dropped at; but, as a matter of tact they generally take 12 or 1 o'clock, and there is an advertisement stating that it will be dropped then, lhat time-that 12 or 1 o'clock—will not be the time that is shown by the town clocks, and never is. _It is the mean time of the locality-the local mean time—and the astronomer or observer who is in charge of the dropping of the time-ball has to ascertain that moment by his observations You will see there is a difference even as our time is now. The 1 o'clock which he drops that time-ball at is not the o'cock shown by the town clocks, but differs from the time shown by the town ? docks by 9 minutes 4-8 seconds, because we do not take the time in Wellington of the meridian of Wellington, but o the mean meridian which is mentioned in the Bill. So that the town time-the local time-is perfectly useless to the navigator. He takes the local mean time as indicated by the time-ball, and compare! it with his chronometer, which should be set to Greenwich mean time and by calculating the of time from the known longitude he ascertains whether h IB chn>nometer »' "fjS keeping Greenwich mean time, and, if not, the rate of error. That is all I have to say about such

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[m. chapman, k.o.

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astronomical observers. Now, there are other observations which scientific men have to make. The greater number of them are only of an interval of time— that is to say, an interval of so many minutes or seconds. For that purpose it does not matter what time the clocks are set at. All that is wanted is that the clocks shall have a proper rate. If the rate of the clock is correct it will correctly show an interval, and that is all many observers want. But we have very little of that in New Zealand. There are some observations made in New Zealand which involve time. Earthquake records, temperature and barometer records, tide-gauge records —all those are made by instruments which themselves record not only the events by a trace on a sheet of paper, but also the time which is indicated by lines drawn on the paper. Now, that will depend on the way the clock is set. It is just as easy for the person who sets the clock to set it to correct time by a clock which is set in accordance with this Bill as it is to set it to correct time by a clock which is set in accordance with our present local time, both of them being different from local mean time. I think that exhausts the question of scientific observations. Ido not know of any observations which are not included in the remarks I have made. Two points that Mr. Adorns mentioned I should like to refer to : He says that the sawmillers put their clocks on in winter, which is the reverse of what you are proposing to do. That is to say, the result of this process is that the sawmiller —the master — takes the time himself—the daylight—which you want to give to the workmen. That is a device by which the workmen shall work the whole of the daylight, whereas you want to give some of the daylight to the worker. You will see that it is the reverse of the process you are proposing. Whether that is beneficial or not to the workmen Ido not know. The other matter he mentioned was a railway accident. The only way in which a railway accident can arise from the clocks being wrong is by something which has to be done at the station at a certain time not being done because the clock is wrong; and Mr. Adams suggests that putting back the clock is a process tending to the injury of the clock. It is, to a striking-clock, but Ido not think that at railway-stations they go by striking-clocks generally. Ido not think the clocks at railway-stations strike. But, apart from that, I presume that such'precautions would be taken by the Railway authorities as to make impossible such an error as the omission to put the clock back or forward on the correct day. It should be easy to make such a mistake as that impossible, and I presume the Railway authorities would do so. I think such a precaution as this would be suggested : that it should be somebody's duty at the specified hour to alter the clock, to record on a slate that he had done so, and, we may suppose, to send a message to headquarters that he had done it; and then it would be inspected by some one else, who would report at once. 1. Mr. Fraser.] The automatic-tablet system does that?— Very likely. I do not attach any importance to the danger of railway accidents. There is another way in which the alteration of the clock might work, and that is that a few people might miss their trains. 2 Mr Side;/.] Would you express an opinion on the suggestion to alter New Zealand time to 12 hours ahead of Greenwich instead of 11|?—I do not think there is anything in it. I think that the nearer the meridian "is to what I may call the centre of time in New Zealand, other things being equal the better; but, as it is desirable to have something like a round number, I consider that an hour increased or diminished by thirty minutes is as much a round number as an hour. Half aii hour is a round number for that purpose, I should say. I think the present rating has worked well. On a continent it is different. The changes of time divide a continent into zones, and there is undoubtedly a good reason for having those zones equidistant from one another. Ido not believe that even that would matter a very great deal. _ 3 I understand you consider it better to take your mean time from a point which is equidistant from extremes of east and west of your country, rather than to take into consideration the locality of population ?—Yes, I think so. Ido not say, to take it exactly equidistant. Geographically that is impossible. But I think that what I may call the mean point of the country is a good centre to start from, subject to this: that it is well to have a number which is easily added or subtracted. That is all you want. I think such a number as 1| is just as easily added or subtracted as the number 1 by all persons who would ever make the calculation. 4 Some evidence was given this morning in connection with mistakes being likely to arise owing to the tides—not so much in the case of intercolonial and Home-going vessels, but coastal craft leaving tidal harbours?—l did think about tides. Tidal observations come within the same remarks that I made as to barometer and thermometer. The time is automatical y recorded, and you only have to secure that your instrument is correctly set. But there is another kind, not of observation, but of reckoning, and that is when a captain wants to know what will be the time ot the high tide at the port he is coming to. He does not trouble about local time. He wants to know what time the tide there will be by the clocks on board his ship—that is to say, by his chronometer showing Greenwich mean time. That is all he wants, and so he makes his calculations on that. Every chart has on it what is called the " establishment of the port —the establishment of every port" That is, a number which is put on the chart, and which reckons the time of high tide on the assumption that high tide at Greenwich is at a certain time. So that the captain is able to calculate from what is called the " establishment of the port" at what time high tide will be, say, at Wellington and he can do that as soon as he knows at what time his ship will reach Wellington, and he can adjust his speed if necessary so as to arrive there at high water. But that is a calculation which he cannot make to a few minutes. I doubt if he can make it to the half-hour, because all sorts of circumstances are perpetually interfering with the time of the high water, so that the tide docs not come with the same accuracy of time as the moon passes the medidian As a clock you would think the tide was about .the worst timekeeper in the world. So that all the captain can hope to do is to calculate within, say, something like half an hour on each side But if he depends on the tide he takes the tide from the signal on the station where they hoist a flag at high water in tidal ports. They signal high water and low water, and if the moment is of importance the ship-captain relies en the signal and not on his calculation.

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M. CHAPMAN, K.C.

5. It was suggested that any inconvenience that might possibly be caused, or any mistakes that might be made, would be made by local coastal vessels and not by the ocean-going vessels—when the captain may have been ashore and had his watch set to local time?— But he should go by his chronometer. He should work the tide out by his chronometer, because the establishment of the port on his map is shown by Greenwich time. Captain Blackburne: Hardly any of the local steamers carry chronometers. Witness: Well, Ido not think it ought to create any practical difficulty. If the captain has not got a chronometer, he will have a timepiece good enough for taking the time of the tides, which are more uncertain than the worst clock. But, in point of fact, coasters know the tides far better than they could ever calculate them by the maps. G. Mr. G. M. Thomson.] It has been suggested that harbourmasters, through altering their local clocks, might make some mistake in connection with the signalling of the tide, and so on, and it might lead to accident at bar harbours? —Well, of course mistakes are possible everywhere. I do not think they are at all probable. 7. Would it not increase the liability to mistake?—l should say it would not increase the Liability with any person who knows his business. A harbourmaster ought to know his business sufficiently to be able to make the addition necessary to convert his time into local mean time. That is all that is wanted. 8. But this would necessitate altering it again?—l moan true local mean time. He has to make the calculation now, if he wants perfect accuracy. In Wellington that difference amounts to about nine minutes and a half. If he wants to get accurately the moment of high tide, he has still 1(i make a calculation —if he is going to give it by the mean time. 9. Mr. Fraser.] Does not the Nautical Almanac, in indicating the hour of high or low tide, give it in the mean time of New Zealand, or is it Greenwich time?— Greenwich time. 10. Supposing that the almanac says 8 o'clock for high tide : what 8 o'clock is that? —I think that is Greenwich mean time. Captain Blackburne: Our New Zealand Nautical Almanac gives New Zealand mean time. Witness: Oh! a New Zealand almanac, yes. Mr. Fraser mentioned the Nautical Almanac. When I am talking of the Nautical Almanac I refer to the one that is published in Greenwich. 11. Mr. Fraser.] If a man has no chronometer, that is of no use to him? —No. A man who μ-ocx to sea without a chronometer is next door to the man who goes to sea without a compass or a chart. 12. Supposing now that we altered the time as proposed by this Bill, a man's watch would then show an hour's difference in time from the time indicated in the New Zealand Nautical Almanac until the almanac has been reprinted : would it not be so?— Yes, unless he alters his watch. 13. But lie must alter his watch in conformity with the Bill? —He need not alter his watch. Witli a ship sailing on the sea the time is altering moment by moment. 14. The man keeps New Zealand mean time, does he not, and keeps his watch at that?— Yes, civil time. 15. And thai will differ from the time set forth in the New Zealand Nautical Almanac until that almanac has been reprinted?— But so it does now, if I am not very much mistaken. IG. How?—l did not know there was a New Zealand Nautical Almanac, but I suppose that all its events are marked in local mean time. 17. No, in mean time for New Zealand?— Are they? Captain Blackburne: Yes, the tide-tables. Witness: Then every ship-captain taking the tide from those tables must make a correction if lie wishes to reduce the events to local mean time. There is no difficulty : the change will be indicated on the almanac. At the same time, times of tides should always be given in local mean time. There is no harm in adding New Zealand mean time.

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