Papers Past | Parliamentary Papers | Appendix to the Journals of the House of Representatives | 1908 Session I | EDUCATION: TE ORANGA HOME (REPORT OF COMMISSION,...

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1908. NEW ZEALAND.

EDUCATION: TE ORANGA HOME (REPORT OF COMMISSION, TOGETHER WITH MINUTES OF EVIDENCE AND EXHIBITS).

Presented to both Houses of Parliament by Gommand of His Excellency.

KEPOBT. To His Excellency, the Right Honourable William Lee, Baron Plunket, Knight Commander of the Most Distinguished Order of Saint Michael and Saint George, Knight Commander of the Royal Victorian Order, Governor and Commander-in-Chief in and over His Majesty's Dominion of New Zealand and its Dependencies : — May it please Your Excellency— ;i I, the Commissioner appointed by Your Excellency's letters patent of the 10th February, 1908, which letters patent were extended on the 14th March, 1908, and by which I was directed to inquire into the management of Te Oranga Home, and the treatment of the resident inmates thereof during the last two years in regard to the following matters, that is to say : — (a.) The "suitability and efficacy of the methods adopted in the said school for the classifica- -■! tion of the inmates in sections or grades of reformatory treatment; (6.) The general treatment of the inmates, particularly as regards the methods of punishment, having regard to humanity on the one hand and the maintenance of proper discipline on the other, and any special treatment as regards punishment to which any particular inmates (whose cases might be brought before me during the inquiry) may have been subjected ; (c.) The duties of the members of the staff, and whether or not such duties, and the conditions under which they are performed, entail any undue hardship ; (d.) The relations between the Manager and the staff of attendants under her control, and the discretion or otherwise exercised by the Manager in respect of her dealings with such attendants; and upon the evidence brought before me in my proceedings as aforesaid, and upon any other evidence that I might in this behalf obtain (but without having regard to the limit of time hereinbefore expressed), to report my opinion as to the extent to which the said school has been successful in improving the moral and social conditions of the inmates, and is generally fulfilling the purpose of a reformatory, have to report as follows: — (a.) Classification. Owing to the lack of sufficient and suitable accommodation at the school, the girls have been entirely dealt with in two classes, the better girls being put in what is known as the first class, and the more troublesome.girls in the second class. At the present time, of the fifty-four girls in the school, eleven are in the first class and the remainder in the second class. Without going into details, the first-class girls have very much higher privileges than those in the second class, and every inducement is offered to those in the lower class to qualify, by good conduct, for the higher class,

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To those acquainted with the class of girls who come to this school it will be at once apparent that the difficulties of management under the present system are almost overpowering, and must often strain the patience and temper of the attendants to breaking-point. Every endeavour is made to keep the two classes separate, but it is practically impossible. Te Oranga is the only female reformatory in the Dominion. Girls who are considered by the Magistrates to require reformatory treatment are committed direct to this school from all parts of New Zealand. Girls also between sixteen and eighteen years of age, who cannot be committed direct to the school, and who, on account of. the seriousness of their offences, have to be committed to prison, are removed from the gaol to the school under special warrant. It follows, of course, that the inmates consist of girls of all ages, many of them having been hardened and corrupted by indulgence in all forms of vice, and who may be termed " moral imbeciles," and others who are scarcely normal in intelligence. It will be seen at once that there must be varying degrees of treatment to satisfactorily deal with all these girls if there is to be a genuine effort to reform them. It is quite hopeless to expect much to be done if there are only facilities for dealing with them in two classes. The marvel is that the results are as good as they are. I understand that plans have been approved for the erection of considerable" additions to the existing buildings, and that the work will shortly be put in hand. This will immensely improve the whole system, and will enable the Manager to so deal, by way of classification, with certain girls as to do away entirely with a great deal of punishment that she feels called upon at present to inflict so as to secure proper discipline in the school. A great deal of very valuable and instructive evidence has been given by several persons on the subject of classification. This evidence will well vep&j perusal, given as it is by persons who have come into personal contact with the work, and who know what they are talking about. For myself, I incline to the opinion that one could not improve upon the suggestions as to classification which were made by Mr. Smail, and which will be found on page 291 and following pages of the evidence. I know of no one who is better qualified than Mr. Smail to express an opinion on such a question, or whose views would be entitled to greater respect. He has made a special study of such matters, and has an intimate,-first-hand knowledge of the material to be dealt with. The main point in connection with Mr. Smail's scheme is the setting-up of a reception class, with most efficient and sympathetic supervision. The creation of other classes would follow on this as a natural and necessary consequence. Until something is done in this direction, it cannot be said that the State is doing its fullest duty to the unfortunate young people who are committed to its care. Every waif reclaimed and reformed is a distinct gain to the State ; every failure is an equally distinct loss and source of expense in the future, as well as an element of danger. Apart from the self-imposed obligation on the State to attempt to : reform, it may be said that a good life gained is of far higher value to humanity than merely a bad life the less. It is impossible to assess the value of a single young life saved from .unspeakable ruin. There will always be hopeless cases, but we need not look for them. All must have an equal chance, and especially must the weaker have every possible opportunity afforded them to grow strong. ■(">.) General Treatment of the Inmates, particularly with reoard to Punishment. The duties, powers, and responsibilities of the Manager in respect to punishments are clearly laid down in the regulations, under Industrial Schools Acts, which were approved by Order in Council dated the 16th June, 1902. Regulation 124 provides as follows :"A register of punishments shall be kept at each school. In such book a record of all corporal punishments, all confinement in cells, of all continuous restriction of diet, and of any other punishment named in the regulations shall be made on the day on which the punishment is inflicted ; and at the end of every month a copy of the entries made during the month shall be sent by the Manager to the Secretary for Education." The Manager of Te Oranga admits that she has neglected to comply strictly with this regulation. She has kept a register, which has been produced in evidence, but the entries therein have been made in lots, at long intervals, from scribbled data or from memory, and then apparently only when it became necessary to send the usual copy to the Secretary for Education. I regard this as a somewhat serious breach of duty on the part of the Manager, and the more so as, for the purpose of this inquiry, the register must be held not to be an absolutely reliable record of punishments inflicted. The result is to practically nullify the very object that was evidently in view when the regulations on the subject of punishments were apparently so carefully framed. The object clearly was to obtain the strictest possible control over all the punishments inflicted in the schools. It is surprising to me, after inspecting the register, and closely examining it, to find that the officers whose duty it was to periodically inspect this particular school, and presumably also to examine the register, never appeared to notice the fact, that must have been apparent to the most casual observer, that the register was not being kept in accordance with the requirements of Regulation 124. There is no medium through which abuses can more readily creep into a school of this sort than through the. infliction of uncontrolled punishments,

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and this evidently was recognised by the Department when framing the regulations. The more need, therefore, for the strictest compliance therewith. The register shows that there are entries of 153 punishments as having been inflicted on fortythree girls during the last two years. These punishments include the infliction of corporal punishment on forty-eight occasions. The regulations provide for the use of a strap of a specified size and weight in the infliction of corporal punishment. Not more than twelve strokes are allowed to be administered at any one time. The ages of the girls who received the strap varied up to over twenty years. The regulations further provide that except for grave offences—such as gross insubordination, repeated attempts to abscond, or inciting to abscond, gross indecency, persistent refusal to obey orders, gross insolence, violence to officers, servants, or inmates, or wilful damage to property—corporal punish, ment shall not be inflicted upon inmates who are over seventeen years of age. In my report on the Burnham Industrial School in 1906, in dealing with the question of corporal punishment in industrial schools, I used the following words : " Personally, I am, as a rule, opposed to corporal punishment; but I fully recognise that a large number of persons, whose opinions are entitled to carry more weight than mine, and who certainly have as full a sense of responsibility, consider that this form of punishment is the only means by which you can appeal to the type of boys who are at Burnham. This, of course, implies that the fear of physical pain is the only deterrent from wrongdoing. However this may be, Ido hold the most decided opinion that when it is considered necessary to inflict such, punishment it should only be done with the utmost discretion." In using these words I was speaking entirely of boys, and, by tradition and otherwise, boys are popularly supposed to require a certain quantity of corporal punishment, and to be incapable of being properly raised without it. But here I have to deal with girls, and not girls only, but young women approaching the age of twenty-one, when they will become free agents. I cannot bring myself to believe that the infliction of the strap is a fit and proper punishment under any circumstances for any of these girls ; but most certainly do I hold very strongly that the strapping of young women as carried out in this school is perfectly unjustifiable. To think of a young woman of twenty years of age, laid on a bed, face down, clothed in a nightdress, and receiving twelve strokes of a strap on her body, is to my mind most repellent, besides being quite opposed to all modern methods of securing discipline. Moreover, I have reason to believe that such treatment at certain periods might be positively injurious. The excuse made by those in authority at the school for a somewhat free use of the strap is that it is absolutely necessary to deal in this way with the peculiar and depraved class of inmates so as to secure ordinary discipline, and it is asserted that it would be impossible to run the institution at all if corporal punishment were abolished. This, to my mind, is a serious admission of weakness, and I decline to believe that it is based upon any reasonable foundation. I make every allowance for the very difficult material with which the Manager has to deal, and I fully realise how dreadfully she is handicapped in her work of dealing satisfactorily with the girls, owing to the lack of such accommodation as would enable her to improve her system of classification, and so minimise the necessity for stringent punishments. It is plainly shown by the records of the school that the Education Department, for several years past, has discouraged the use of corporal punishment, but at the same time no absolute embargo has been placed upon it. It seems to me that the Department, while not approving it, has hesitated to abolish it, because of the fear that the staff could not control the inmates without its retention. I believe that, apart from the sentimental aspect of the matter, it answers no good purpose, either as a deterrent in itself or by way of example. To believe that any good end could be gained by strapping a young woman within a few months of her discharge is, to my mind, illogical and absurd. I feel very strongly that corporal punishment should be entirely abolished at Te Oranga ; but if the Department is not prepared to go to this length, then, without doubt, it should only be used on the authority of the Department and under medical approval. The register shows that punishment with the strap was inflicted forty-eight times during the last two years. Of these, two inmates were strapped four times, three were strapped three times, five were strapped twice, and twenty-one were strapped once. The maximum punishment of twelve strokes was inflicted in fourteen cases, and the maximum punishment was inflicted twice on three inmates. No one individual, or set of persons, can with any show of reason or justice be held responsible for the continuance of a practice which I have felt bound to condemn. It has simply been passed on from hand to hand, and has been regarded as part of the necessary discipline of the school. I feel sure that the practice has only obtained under a deep sense of obligation and duty. The act of infliction has been painful to those who have inflicted the punishment. I directed some attention to the case of a girl who was alleged to have been sent to the Hospital very shortly after receiving a severe. strapping. The full facts of this case are these : The girl had absconded from service, and during her absence had been leading an immoral life. She returned to

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the Home on a Tuesday, and is described by the Manager as looking thin and half-starved. On the Thursday she received twelve strokes of the strap. On the Sunday she complained of pains in the head, and was treated in the institution. On the Monday she seemed to be getting worse, and the doctor was sent for, and ordered her removal to the Hospital, where she was found to be suffering from appendicitis. She was cured of this, and returned to Te Oranga, but has absconded again during the progress of this inquiry, and is still at large. I have formed a very decided opinion that this girl was not in a fit condition to be strapped when she received that punishment, and, had medical approval been a condition precedent to its infliction, I do not believe that the girl would have been passed as fit. At the same time, I think the Manager ought to have refrained from the strapping when she herself admits that the girl looked thin and half-starved. It is impossible, of course, to believe that there was any connection between the punishment and the attack of appendicitis, and this opinion is indorsed by the Medical Officer. Besides the strap, the other punishments made use of in the institution are these : Putting in a cell; putting in the detention-yard ; wearing a punishment dress ; putting to bed; keeping apart from other inmates ; hair cut; and the minor punishments, not recorded, of bread and water, or depriving of a certain quantity of food. From the punishment register I have prepared a summary showing the punishments inflicted during the past two years, and the figures are interesting and important, as showing the apparent inutility of many of the punishments inflicted. The figures also show what I am very pleased to see, and that is that the number of girls requiring to be frequently punished is but proportionately small. As I have already said, punishment was inflicted 153 times on forty-three inmates. Of these, one inmate was punished eighteen times, on,e was punished fourteen times, one was punished ten times, one was punished eight times, three inmates were punished seven times, two were punished six times, three were punished five times, two were punished four times, six were punished three times, nine were punished twice, and fourteen were punished once. These figures are worthy of some attention. There is nothing in the cell-punishment that calls for any special remark. The cell is merely a small room, well lined, warm, and fairly lighted, and with fixed seats. I think, however, that there is clear evidence that the cell-punishment has not been strictly supervised, and unless improved might be seriously abused. I have very grave doubts whether the regulations in this connection have been strictly complied with. There should be no margin of possibility of abuse creeping into the infliction of any form of punishment. It must always be borne in mind that these girls are wards of the State, and that they are committed to the Home and detained there for the purpose, theoretically, of being reformed. They are at the mercy, so to say, of those in authority, and the most scrupulous care should be exercised to prevent any possibility of an abuse of power. Considerable attention has been directed to the case of two girls whose hair was cut, in addition to other punishments. In the register the offence of one is described as, " Absconding, and the ringleader of the absconders. Was constantly inciting a number of girls.to abscond and join her in leading a bad life." For this it was decreed that she should be placed in cell and detention-yard from the 2nd November to the 10th November, should receive twelve strokes of the strap, and have her hair cut. The entry against the other girl is as follows : " Absconding. This girl also constantly inciting others to abscond and lead a bad life." For this it was ordered that she should receive twelve strokes of the strap and have her hair cut. It seems that on previous occasions the Manager had recommended that the hair of certain girls should be cut, but the Department then steadily refused to sanction it. In June, 1901, the Department refused to grant permission, on the ground that cutting the hair would be an indignity that could not be approved. Again, in July, 1905, the Department expressed itself' as "strongly opposed to cutting the hair oi girls as objectionable and of no practical use. On this latest occasion the circumstances appeared so unusual and so grave that the required authority was given and the hair was cut. I can only assume that the Department considered, when recommending that the required sanction should be given to the Manager to cut the girl's hair, that, standing as it does in loco parentis, it would have sufficient authority over the girls to order their hair to be cut. Ido not know what other warrant could be claimed for the act. I can find nothing in the regulations that, to my mind, can cover the position in any way. The only regulation that approaches the case would be No. 123, which runs as follows : " Punishment by the imposition of some badge of degradation, or of some special article of dress, may be inflicted, but not without the sanction of the Minister." It may be, of course, that the Department thinks that the words " some badge of degradation " cover the case. I can scarcely, however, think this ; and, if lam correct in my view, I can only fall back upon my first suggestion. —that the general power of a parent over his child is claimed. With this lam not now concerned; but it certainly does seem a matter for regret that the Department should, after years of refusal, have decided to recommend for Ministerial authority an act that, to say the least, has only doubtful authority for its execution. For myself, Ido not profess to approve of this form of treatment,

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arid I believe that the public sentiment is opposed to it; but I have perused all the papers in connection.with the matter, and it is quite Clear that the authority was only given after a careful and judicial review of the whole of the circumstances of the case, and under a sense of deep responsibility as to .the best course to pursue in most difficult circumstances. There can be no doubt that the main object in approving the punishment was to prevent these two girls from reverting to a life of sin. There is equally no doubt that it had this effect, for the girls are still in the Home, and at present giving no trouble. It will be, no doubt, thought by many people that this result justifies the unusual course adopted. I think that I ought to refer to one form of punishment that largely obtains at Te Oranga and that calls for some remark, and that is the unrestricted use of what is known as the " punishment dress." This dress, I may state, is an extraordinary garment of many and various coloured hues, most striking in appearance, and eminently unattractive. I understand that several of these garments are in use in the institution, under authority of Regulation 123, which I have already quoted. In no single instance could I find any record of the Minister having accorded his sanction to the use of these peculiar garments. When I found that they were somewhat extensively used, and no apparent record kept of their use, I seriously questioned the right o"f the Manager to act as she was doing. She has produced to me a record showing that on the 11th October, 1902, on the advice of the then Official Visitors, she was authorised by the permanent head of the Department to use her own discretion in the use of this punishment dress, but was instructed to report all such cases. It seems to me that the Department has no right to go outside the regulations, and certainly not to loosely set aside the prerogative of the Minister. When drawing the regulations it was evidently thought that this form of punishment was sufficiently important to justify it being specially safeguarded. I recommend that the authority I have referred to be cancelled. Regulation 109 reads : " No stroke on the head or neck can in any case be tolerated under any name whatever, and shaking, pushing, and all similar forms of punishment are prohibited." It is much to be regretted that, in the face of this very precise and stringent regulation, the Manager has had to admit that on occasions she has boxed the ears of some of the inmates, and has slapped them, and so on. She asserts that she has never done this in anger, but it is difficult to understand why she has done it at all. There is no ground whatever for believing that any harm has resulted to any inmate by these acts, but they are a distinct breach of the regulation, and should be absolutely prohibited. I think that I have practically disposed of all questions affecting the methods of punishment adopted in the school; but there are one or two matters that I must refer to, as properly coming under the heading of the general treatment of the inmates. The fact has been elicited during the progress of the inquiry that the Manager makes a physical examination of a highly private nature of all girls when first committed to the Home, and also of those who return after absence by absconding. Ido not at all question the necessity for such an examination —far from it; but Ido most certainly hold that it should be made only by the Medical Officer. This would remove all possible objections, such as have been taken, to the existing practice, and at the same time secure a much greater degree of certainty as to the examination. A good deal has been said about the outside work that the girls are called upon to do, in the form of cutting down trees, chopping and splitting firewood, and grubbing lupins. I suppose it will be conceded that vigorous physical exercise is an absolute necessity for these girls. The evidence clearly shows that the work they do is in no way hard, and the girls enjoy it, and regard it in a great measure as recreation. Opinions may differ as to whether some of the work done is entirely suitable for young girls, but it is certainly neither degrading, and the institution does not lend itself readily to any other form of physical exercise. A good deal of evidence was given about the treatment by the Manager of a girl who had been for some time in another institution, where she had done exceedingly well, and whom a lady in Christchurch was desirous of taking into her service. The case of the girl in question is a most peculiar one, and shows conclusively how a change of treatment may operate most beneficially upon a girl whose antecedents would appear to show the probability of quite a different result. Ido not propose to refer in detail to the case. The girl is now approaching twenty-one. She is in most respectable service and doing well, and enjoys the confidence of her mistress. The dispute over the girl was a most unfortunate one, and, in my opinion, quite unnecessary. I cannot think that the Manager of the school exercised a very wise discretion in dealing with the case. She evidently thought more of her dignity and authority than she did of the true interests of the girl. This girl was evidently amenable to and capable of making considerable improvement under a milder form of discipline than that of Te Oranga, and it would have been wiser to have granted without demur the opportunity afforded of giving her a further chance in such desirable employment as was offered.

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In connection with the general treatment of the girls, I must here mention a matter which, during the course of the inquiry, created a most unpleasant impression in my mind. The fact was elicited in evidence that the Manager is in the habit of using bedroom chambers for the purpose of keeping articles of food in for the use of the institution. I satisfied myself as to the truth of this by visiting the storeroom and seeing these things in use. I cannot too strongly condemn such a practice. There is not a shadow of excuse for it in any way. The objection is not a mere matter of sentiment. These articles are only identified in the public mind with one species of use, and that use is uncleanly, and certainly not of an alimentary nature. The endeavour should be to refine and elevate these girls, and not to cause them to believe that we appraise them so low in the domestic scale as to store their food in a vessel that is not even mentioned in ordinary polite society. I desire also to state here that there is absolutely no fault whatever to find with the food supplied for the use of the inmates. It is good, wholesome, and ample in quantity. The healthy and robust appearance of the girls generally is conclusive proof that they thrive well upon the food supplied. A dietary scale is in use, and to my mind it is thoroughly liberal and satisfactory. (c.) The Staff. The staff at its full complement consists of a Sub-matron, a non-resident school-teacher, five attendants, and a gardener. One attendant has clerical duties to perform in addition to those of relievingattendant. So far as lam able to judge, the duties are fairly well distributed, and certainly do not entail any undue hardship. The hours worked seem to me to be somewhat long, but each attendant, when giving evidence, although pointedly invited to speak fully and freely on the subject, expressed herself as perfectly content with all the conditions of her employment. lam bound, therefore, to assume that everything is satisfactory and sufficient for the purpose. (d.) Relations between Manager and Staff. Judging by the evidence given by all the resident members of the staff, their relations with the Manager are of the most cordial nature. Not a single discordant note was sounded. The schoolteacher, who only visits at certain stated hours, complained somewhat of what she described as a lack of sympathy with the work of the school on the part of the Manager, and she thought that, given better conditions, she would show better results. I think that the true explanation of any little friction that may arise from time to time is, as suggested by Mrs. Branting, due to the fact that the teacher looks to the syllabus and nothing else, and that her enthusiasm in her work causes her to regard the school results as of the first importance. The school-work can only be regarded as auxiliary to the general work of the institution, and the peculiar elements composing the school, the mixed ages of the scholars, their antecedents, general backwardness, &c, make it quite impossible to seriously regard the schoolwork from the standpoint from which an ordinary primary day-school would be expected to be judged. The teacher can be content to know that she is doing excellent work, and that her section is a most important and very valuable adjunct to the general scheme of the institution. It is quite impossible to come in contact with the staff without feeling that their heart is in their work, and that, under most difficult circumstances and conditions, they are doing really good service. A good deal of evidence was given in regard to an ex-attendant and the circumstances under which she left the institution. She elected not to bring her particular case before me as a special matter for inquiry, and wrote to me to that effect; but, having been summoned to give evidence generally as to the working of the institution, the whole facts incidentally were elicited, but the witness appeared to mainly direct her attention to attacking the Manager personally, on account of a feeling that she had that the Manager had tried to do her an injury. This resulted, of course, in recriminations. I do not propose to refer to this case in very much detail. The Education Department thought proper to terminate the engagement of this attendant, and I cannot say that it was without reason. It was quite impossible, under the circumstances, that she could be allowed to continue her employment. It may be, and very probably was, that she was the victim of unfortunate circumstances; but the fact remains that her retention in the institution would have led to serious consequences, with dire results to the discipline of the school. There is no doubt that this attendant was labouring under a sense of grievance against the Manager, and this was mainly due to the loose manner in which she was engaged, both in the matter of definition of duties and clear statement of salary to be paid, immediate and prospective. This sense of grievance was intensified at a later stage by the unfortunate failure of the Manager to fully appreciate the serious nature of an illness which subsequently seized this attendant. There seems very grave reason to doubt whether she was at any time physically fit for the duties that she was expected to discharge at the school, but which she alleges she never had any idea of undertaking at her engagement. Then, later, came the accusations made against her by a number of the

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girls which culminated in her dismissal. After fully weighing everything that could be said for and against this attendant, and thoroughly considering her attitude throughout, I am bound to say that her conduct at one stage of the trouble showed great lack of discretion, and proved her unfitness for the position of great responsibility which she engaged to fill. One lesson to be learned from the somewhat unfortunate episode is that every attendant at the time of engagement should be supplied with a letter of appointment, setting out clearly and explicitly Mie terms of her engagement, including the duties to be performed. I am directed to report my opinion as to the extent to which the school has been successful in improving the moral and social conditions of the inmates, and is general fulfilling the purpose of a reformatory, Te Oranga was opened as a female reformatory in 1900. Since then sixty-two girls have passed out of control. At the termination of the period of detention thirty-two of these were of good character, thirteen might be described as fair, eight were bad, three were missing, three were mental defectives, and three had died. I agree with the opinion of the Department that a complete success should not be claimed until the inmate has been beyond the control of the school for at least three years. Applying this test, there are. only thirty-nine girls who have been beyond control for three years, and of these nineteen are known to be of good character, two are unknown, two are weak-minded, two are in a private institution, and one has died. In considering these figures it must not be forgotten that several of these girls were only a very short time in Te Oranga, having been culled as incorrigibles from other schools, and sent here after the school opened. Many were approaching twenty-one when they entered. This being so, I consider the results distinctly good. Very few of the general public can really be aware of the terrible material upon which the management has to work. Many of the girls are brought direct from the brothels, from Chinese dens, from the open streets, from the company of dissolute parents. Many of them come in with irreparable marks of disease, of sin, and of. degradation. None of them have ever had a chance to live straightly and decently. I. could give instances of youthful depravity that would be thought impossible. These girls, who have never been under control or discipline, who are of an age to find a fatal attraction in various forms of sin, and who absolutely resent any attempt to interfere with their freedom, have to be sorted out, broken in, and gradually humanised. Can we wonder at the failures in the face of such enormous difficulties ? But Ido not require statistics to convince me that the Home is doing good work. Many of these girls have passed through my hands when at their very worst. I have spoken with them, I have studied them, I have tried to reason with them. I see them again after some months of treatment at Te Oranga, and I can scarcely believe them to be the same girls. They are gentle in their manners, they have a good address, they show undoubted evidence of refinement; in short, they have become humanised. In addition to my own powers of observation, I have had the opportunity of reading a very large number of letters written to the Manager at different times by service girls and by ex-inmates. These letters have a genuine ring of spontaneity about them. They are remarkable for their expressions of gratitude to the institution, and of deep attachment to the Manager. Invariably they show a fixed desire to lead a good and pure life, and to avoid the paths of temptation which are always open to them in the world, and which seem so alluring. Yes, in spite of. many shortcomings, many drawbacks, many weaknesses, one cannot but feel grateful to the management for much excellent work that is being done. As I have already stated, there must be failures, and in most instances these failures mean a serious loss to the community at large. At present a girl on arriving at the age of twenty-one has a legal right to be discharged. It may be that she is hopelessly bad. She is a sexual degenerate, and will be a source of contamination wherever she goes. And yet we have to turn her at large to prey on the community. Surely the State has a right to step in and prevent such a state of affairs. It can only be done by necessary legislation, and any legislation should apply, of course, to all young people committed under the Industrial Schools Acts. Public attention is gradually being directed to this matter, and the present position is generally regarded as anomalous and illogical. One of the leading daily papers of the Dominion has lately had an article, under the heading of " Indeterminate Detention," which deals very much better than I could possibly hope to do with the subject, from the standpoint of the thoughtful public. I regard the question of such enormous importance that I make no apology for quoting here the article at length : — Indeterminate Detention. Undoubtedly there is a good deal to be said in favour of an amendment of th - present law that opens the gates of the industrial homes to the inmates as they reach the age of twenty-one, and gives them free passage out into the world. In the eyes of the law they are no longer youths or girls, but men and women, who have arrived at years of discretion, and are entitled, therefore, to their liberty.

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Unfortunately, the theory that discretion comes to a young man or young woman at twenty-one is a legal fiction, which is no more, but rather less, true of the inmates of industrial homes than it is of the young people outside them. Reformatory treatment has different effects, according to the nature of the subjects, and in numerous cases we are glad to think it does go far to make a lad a*decent member of the community. But there are others upon whom it can have no beneficial'result. f JThese are the victims of physical and moral degeneracy, to whom the liberty of legal manhood or womanhood only means wider opportunities of wrongdoing. These are made as free as the others. The policy of locking up a boy, more or less closely, for a number of years because his morals are so bad that he is a danger to the community andjjthen releasing him, still unreformed, when he reaches a particular age, seems to lack common-sense. To carry out this procedure in the case mentioned by Mr. Pope at the Te Oranga inquiry—namely, that of a young man of such unspeakable tendencies that the police had to be warned that he was going into a certain district—seems madness. It is no more rightthe community by giving such a person unrestrained liberty than it would be to release a savage wild beast in a school playground. There should be some system by which a Court could order the continued detention of a reformatory inmate' 1 who was not fit to be at large. The power would necessarily have to be safeguarded, because it would affect the personal liberty of young men and women, but it should be possible to devise some process of examination by medical experts and a Magistrate which would prevent anything like injustice being committed. In cases where he was satisfied it would be unsafe to release any inmate, the Magistrate could commit him or her for a further period of detention, the sentence to be reviewed if during that time any marked improvement was noticed, or to be repeated if at the end of the period the individual showed no sign of reform. Society protects itself to-day from the habitual criminal; it has an equal right to protect itself against the young sexual degenerate without waiting for him to first commit some horrible crime." I can imagine no greater incentive to reform, in the case of most of these young people, than the fear of indeterminate detention. I believe it would do more to help forward the work of the reformatories than anything else. The necessity for punishments would be gradually reduced, and the percentage of failures would be gradually brought down to a minimum. I earnestly recommend the whole question to the very serious consideration of the Government. In closing my report, I desire to place on record my appreciation of the invaluable assistance rendered to me by Mr. J. D. Gray as Shorthand Reporter and Secretary to the Commission. His task has been no light one. We sat on fourteen days, and examined seventy-nine witnesses. The full evidence taken before me is forwarded herewith. In. witness whereof I have hereunto set my hand and seal, this twenty-eighth day of March, in the year one thousand nine hundred and eight. H. W. Bishop, Stipendiary Magistrate and Commissioner.

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INDEX TO EVIDENCE. Name. Page. Name. Page. A. L. Aitken, Arthur D. .. .. .. .. 36 Leslie, Mary .. .. .. .. 104 A, C (inmate of Home) .. .. 6-13 L , A (inmate of Home) .. .. 69 L , J (inmate of Home) .. .. 83 B. Bean, Jane.. •■ •• ■• Molntoßhi Mary 84 _ 86 Bone' Clara " 123 McKee, Sarah J. .. .. .. .. 102 Bone! James .. •■ " ..72,73 Macpherson, Jessie 73,74 Branting, Ellen T 104-119,132,133 B , E (inmate of Home) .. .. 59-61 B , P (inmate of Home) .. .. 21-24 M B M (inmate of Home) .. .. 57-59 B ' V (inmate of Home) .. .. 70 Mikle, Adam F. J 41, 42 ' v Mills, Clara .. .. .. .. 78-81 Moorhouse, Alioe .. .. .. .. 75-78 Morris, Rose .. .. .. .. 39 C Myhre, Chas. A. .. .. .. 71 Pl,nT,lir, Charles •• ■• •■ 103-104 M , A Z (inmate of Home) .. 29-31 n_ A—(inmate of Home) .. 33,70-71 M ,H (inmate of Home) ~ .. 16-21 G ' E (inmate of Home) .. .. 63-65 M , M (inmate of Home) .. .. 62-63 c ' G l (inmate of Home) .. 32 M , R (inmate of Home) .. .. 65-66 D. N. Dean, Elizabeth 88-89 N, G (inmate of Home) .. 24,25 D , D (inmate of Home) .. .. 31-32 E. P. Early Margaret .. •• •• •• 36-38 Patten, Henry .. .. .. .. 39-41 Ji.ariy, l gare. Petremant, Harriett B 99 Pope, Roland H. .. .. .. .. 123-132 P , J (inmate of Home) .. .. 13-16 F - P — , M (inmate of Home) .. .. 66-67 Pendall, Frederick P. • • • • ■ • 97-98 Fluellyn, Samuel ........ 103 Q. R. G ' Reeee, William .. .. .. .. 86-88 (j , a (inmate of Home) .. -. 48-51 R, L (inmate of Home) .. 32-33, 65 H. S.Harrison, Ada .. ••' ■• 33-36,122 Scale, C. F. 133 Howden, Elizabeth .. •• •• 51-57,122 Simpson, Elizabeth . . .. .. .. 89-91 Hunt, Ellen M. .. •• •• 81-83,84,123 Smail, Tnomas I. .. .. .. .. 120-122 H 1 m — (inmate of Home) .. .. 82 i Smith, Mary .. .. .. .. 102 ' Sorensen, Henry B. .. .. .. .. 38-39 Speight, James .. .. .. .. 44-45 Spooner, Fanny A. .. .. .. .. 71-72 L *"" Symes, Wm. H. .. .. .. .. 92-94 Inwood, Frederick R. .. ■• •• 91-92 S , C (inmate of Home) .. .. 68-69 Inwood, Mary T. .. •• •• •• 92 S , E (inmate of Home) .. 25-28,72 Isherwo'od, Susannah .. , .. • • 123 S , M (inmate of Home) .. .. 67-68 J. T. Jackson, Sarah E. .. .. •• •• 95-97 Turner, William R 42-44 j G 'inmate of Home) .. .. 1-5 T , A N (inmate of Home) .. 72 j |m (inmate of Home) .. .. 70 T, L (inmate of Home) .. .. 69-70 K. W. Kaye, Eliza B 99-102 Walker, T. A 134 King, George .. •. • • 94, 95 W , A A (mmate of Home) .. 61-62

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MINUTES OE EVIDENCE. Monday, 2nd Maech, 1908. (Before H. W. Bishop, Esq., Commissioner.) Mr. T. G. Russell appeared for the Matron (Mrs. Branting); Mr. F. K. Hunt for the Submatron (Miss Hunt); Mr. C. E. Salter appeared for Mr. J. H. Fountain, as a member of the public interested in the welfare of the Home; and Mr. R. H. Pope appeared on behalf of the Education Department. G J examined on oath. Mr. Salter.'] How old are you I—l1 —I will be eighteen years in four months' time from now. 2. How long have you been in the Home? —Three years on the 28th June. 3. What is the nature of your outside work?— Sawing and chopping, and in the winter time we dig. 4. You saw and chop what?— Fir-trees, with a cross-cut saw. 5. And you split them?— Yes, we chop them down. One of the girls goes up the tree and puts a rope on it, and we all help to pull the tree down. Then we cross-cut it and chop it up. 6. Are they large trees?— Yes. 7. How do you get up the roots?—We have to cut the roots out with a chopper or dig them out with a spade. We use a pick-axe, too. 8. Then do you fill in the hole so made? —Yes, with sand. 9. How many hours in the day do you work at that?— The girls who attend school in the forenoon go out to this work in the afternoon. 10. You go to this work from about 1 o'clock until when?—A quarter to 5. 11. Do you get any relaxation during that time? Do you rest?— When we work with Miss Hunt, she says, "Do not get tired, girls"; when we work with Miss Mills and Miss McPherson t they give us a little rest. 12. You do this work at the trees practically four hours at a time? —Yes. 13. Is that nearly every day?— Yes, except on Saturday. We have washing in the laundry, and go in at a quarter to 4 on Saturday and have recreation. 14. Sometimes I believe you go to work at grubbing up the lupins? —Yes. 15. With what tools? —Pick-axe and chopper. 16. A large-sized pick-axe?— Yes. 17. Do you find this work pretty hard?— Yes, it is pretty hard. 18. Now, about the punishment you have received : Have you ever been put in the cells?— Yes. 19. How often? —I have been in four times, counting my punishment for running away. 20. What happened on the first occasion? —Miss Mills put me in for not knowing my catechism. 21. Did she speak to the Matron before putting you in?—No, she took me straight to the cell, and put me in. 22. How long were you in on that occasion? —I do not think it was very long. 23. Tell us how long, as near as you can?—lt was not much longer than an hour. 24. But it was Miss Mills who put you in, and without authority so far as you know? —She did not say anything to the Matron in my presence. 25. Can you tell us what occurred on the second occasion?—l was put in for giving impudence to Miss Mills in the laundry. 26. Do you remember whether on that occasion she spoke to the Matron? —No, she took me straight from the laundry and put me in. Ido not know whether she spoke to the Matron afterwards. 27. On the third occasion, what happened?—l was over by the lupins, and I asked for water, and Miss Mills said the morning girls went over there without water, and she did not see why we should not do without water. Then I said I could not go without water because of the heat, and Miss Mills said if all the girls did as much work as I did the place would never get done. And I said that if they had done as much as me they would not hurt. 28. What did she do then? —She brought me to Miss Hunt, and told Miss Hunt to put me in the cell, and Miss Hunt put me in the cell. 29. How long were you in? —All the afternoon. 30. Do they not allow you water when working at the lupins?— Not now. They used to allow it. 31. And no matter how hot the day is you have to work in the lupins without anything to drink? —Yes. We used to have oatmeal water, but we are not allowed to have it now. 32. Have you ever objected to go to work at the lupins?— Yes. 33. What happened on one occasion? —I objected to Miss Hunt. I had a headache, and I asked Miss Hunt whether I could sta}' inside, and Miss Hunt said No, I was going out to work, and Miss Hunt got angry because I objected to go. She said every one has to work, whether they had a headache or not. 34. And she made j-ou go? —Well, she tried to make me go, and I would not.

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35. What happened? —She gave me a fair chance to go, and I declined, and went back. She told Miss McPherson to put me to bed, and I was in bed all the afternoon and until the next day. 36. Now, I believe there were some girls who tried to abscond a little while ago?— Yes. 37. You were one of them? —Yes. 38. Did H M suggest to you that you should abscond with her?— Yes. 39. Did you agree to go with her?— Yes. 40. Did you get away?—No, we got as far as the loft in the laundry. 41. And you were detected and brought back?— Yes. 42. What happened?—l was put into the cell all day Sunday, and I had three meals on dry bread. 43. Were you strapped?— Yes, I had six cuts with the strap on my night-garment. 44. The Commissioner.] Inflicted by whom? —By the Matron. 45. Mr. Salter.'] Was any one present?— Miss Howden. 46. Were they nice gentle taps? —No, they were not. 47. Pretty severe? —Yes, I did not like them. 48. Right across your back? —Yes. 49. You had to lie on the bed to receive them? —Yes. 50. When you were let out, what sort of dress was put oh you?— The runaway dress. 51. What sort of dress is that? —A dress with all sorts of colours. 52. What food do you have for breakfast? —Porridge and a piece of bread and a piece of bread and dripping. 53. Can you have more than one plate of porridge if you want it? —Yes. 54. Is the jam put on pretty freely?— Sometimes it is pretty dry. 55. You mean there is not much jam on it?— Yes. 56. Is the milk always as it should be? —Sometimes it is pretty sour when it comes to the table. 57. Do you remember some girls being ill after eating some fish? —Yes, the doctor had to be sent for, 58. How long ago was that?— About a year. 59. What do you have for dinner? Do you have meat?— Yes. 60. Do you have meat every day? —Not every day. We have soup one day, another day we have stew, and sometimes meat and potatoes. 61. When you have meat, do you have as much as you lik£, or is it limited? —It is usually served out, but we can pass our plates back for a second helping if we wish to. 62. What goes on at tea-time? —We have four pieces of bread at tea-time —two with dripping and two with jam. 63. Do you ever have any cake or other delicacies? —On Wednesday and Saturday evenings we have cake. [At this stage the strap and runaway dress above referred to were handed in to the Commission.] 64. Do you ever have to do scrubbing upstairs in the winter time?— Yes. 65. In what state do you have to do that? —We have our boots and stockings off. 66. Do you use cold water or hot? —Cold water. 67. No matter how cold the weather is? —Yes. 68. What is the result of that? What condition are your feet in?— Pretty cold. 69. Do you ever get chilblains?—l have never had chilblains. 70. In addition to what you have already told us, in what other ways does the Matron punish you ?—The Matron has boxed my ears twice. 71. Gently or severely? —It was not very hard. 72. Have you seen other girls treated in the same way?— Yes. 73. What other girls?—H M and H S . 74. When the Matron wants to tell you of your faults, does she do so privately?— She usually speaks them out in front of all the girls. 75. Have you ever had a chance to go to service? —Yes, but I have spoilt it for myself. 76. By endeavouring to abscond? —Yes. 77. Miss Mills is sometimes attendant over you?— Yes. 78. How do you get on with her? —Not very well. 79. Why not?— Because when you work with her if you happen to do anything she growls at you until you give her impudence, and then when you give her impudence she reports you to the Matron. 80. I believe one of the attendants sleeps near the dormitory?— Yes. 81. What happens when the girls, as girls must, turn over in bed?— When Miss Mills is there she sings out to us. 82. What does she sing out?— She asks us what we are doing. She told J P that if she turned over in bed much longer she would have to go on the board in the reception-room. 83. Do you know what that meant? —I have not been in there yet. I know of girls who have been in there, though. 84. You only know about that from what you have heard? —Yes. 85. Has the Matron ever charged you with any evil practice as the result of turning over in bed?— The Matron has not, but Miss Mills has. 86. When she asked you what you were doing she has insinuated that you were doing something wrong?— Yes. 87. She has told you so?— Yes. 88. Mr, Russell,] Before you came here you were,in St, Mary's Home, Karori? —Yes,

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89. And I think you absconded twice? —Yes. 90. Do you remember why you were put in there? —For general misconduct. 91. You were just off to Sydney with a man when you were arrested? —Yes. 92. You had given yourself up to an evil life at that time? —I refuse to answer any personal remarks. 93. Considering what had happened before you came here, are you satisfied that efforts are being made to put you in a good position when you leave here? Are you satisfied that what these people are doing is done with the object of helping you in your future life?— Yes. 94. You are quite satisfied of that? —Yes. 94a. Are you satisfied, judging from your own character and that of the other girls here, that anything that is done here is unavoidable in order to bring about that result? Are you satisfied that what is being done here is being done for a good purpose?— Yes. 95. You are quite satisfied on that point?-—Yes. 96. And you recognise you have to submit to certain restrictions here in order to try and put you in a good position by-and-by?—Yes. 97. I ask you now, as a girl who is getting old, what complaints have you really got against the Home that you think are well founded: Of course, we know every girl has to put up with a certain amount of restriction, but using your common-sense, and being fair, what complaints have you got either against the Department or against the Matron, seeing that you consider that they are doing their best to put you in a good position ?—Well, I think I ought to have a show at service. 98. Is that not a matter that must be left to the experience and knowledge of the Matron?—l dare say. 99. Do you think that in keeping you here a little longer than you think right she is acting (whether rightly or wrongly, in your opinion) in your best interests? —Yes. 100. Therefore, though you think you ought to go out into the world, if she, as an experienced woman, thinks you ought not to go out yet, are you satisfied she is doing the best for you ?—Yes. 101. You are quite satisfied that in preventing you from going out yet the Matron is doing the best for you ?—Yes. 102. You like the Matron yourself?— Yes, I have nothing to say against her. 103. She does her best to make your life here as happy as she can? —Yes. 104. With regard to cutting trees, do I understand you to say you have worked about four hours every day since you have been here cutting trees?— Not cutting trees. 105. Let us take last week: how many days last week were you cutting trees? —Monday morning we were sawing. 106. For how long?— Just for a short time. 107. That is all you did last week in tree-cutting?—No, on Tuesday afternoon we were sawing trees again. 108. For how long? —Just a short time, about an hour. 109. Let us take the week before : how long were you cutting trees or sawing wood? —Two or three days. 110. For a short time?—We were sawing at the wood until about a quarter to 5. 111. Are you always sawing, or is it taken turn about with the other girls?— Turn about. 112. How often in the month does your own turn come?— The girls usually choose the work for themselves. 113. You like this part of the work yourself: you choose it voluntarily?— Yes. 114. You do this particular work because you like it better than the other work? —Yes. 115. You have been in good health all the time you have been here? —Yes. 116. Very good?— Yes. 117. You have had no medical advice at all?— No. 118. And you feel well, except that you get these headaches?-—Yes. 119. And they do not come very often? —No. 120. Did you select the work at the lupins for yourself? —No, I was sent to do that. 121. How far is that from here? —Just across the irrigation paddock. 122. These lupins are 6 ft. to 7 ft. high?— Nearly as high as the door. 123. And any one could hide in them easily?— Yes. 124. Is that why they are cut down—to prevent girls getting into them and hiding?—l cannot say. 125. If they were left, the girls would be able to get into them very easily?— Yes. 126. Cutting lupins is not very severe work?—l do not like it. 127. What do you cut them with?— Pick-axe and chopper. 128. What thickness is the lupin?— About 1 in. or ljin. 129. They are green sappy things? —Yes. 130. Easily cut through? —Some of them are difficult to cut. 131. Why?-—Because the roots are thick. 132. When you cut the lupins, are they left to dry, or do you gather them up?— Some are gathered up to make a path by the irrigation paddock. 133. The others are left to dry?— Yes. 134. You set about getting up the roots with a pick-axe?— Yes. 135. Is it a small pick-axe? —No. 136. Did the Matron not say it was the lightest and smallest she could bu}^? —I dare say. 137. The soil is very light and sandy?— Yes. 138. You simply put the pick-axe under the root and pull it up?— You have to give a good hard hit at them before you get them up. 139. You have always been in good health? —Yes.

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140. That work has never made you ill?—It has made my head ache two or three times. 141. Are you subject to headaches? —Yes. 142. You get headaches easily?— Yes. 143. Do you complain that that work is too hard for you? —I am always very tired after coming over from the lupins. 144. What work do you suggest you should do if that is taken off you?—l would sooner do washing than that any day. 145. You prefer wood-cutting to washing, do you not?—l prefer sawing rather than chopping. 146. And rather than washing?—No, not rather than washing. 147. Did you ever tell the Matron that you would like to be relieved of the lupin work and put to washing? —No. 148. Why did you not tell her that: she has always been willing to meet jou in any way she can, and make your life as pleasant as possible?— Yes. 149. Then, if you had asked her to relieve you of work at the lupins, you have no reason to think she would not have done so?— No. 150. Is the light in the cell quite good enough to read?— Yes. 151. Did you have a book when you were there? —No. 152. Did you ask for one?—No, you are not allowed a book in there. 153. Who put you in the cell the first time?— Miss Mills. 154. Why did you not know the catechism?—l tried to learn it, but I was not used to learning it. 155. Did she not tell you beforehand that if you did not learn the catechism you would be put into the cell?— No. 156. She never mentioned it to you?— No. 157. How long ago is that? —Just after I came here. 158. So that matter is three years old?— Yes. 159. You were put in the cell for a short time on the Sunday morning?— Not more than a quarter of an hour. 160. Do you know it is the rule that if a girl does not know the catechism she has to go into the cell?—I did not know it was the rule then. I knew we had to learn the catechism. 161. Did you try to learn it?— Yes. 162. Not very much?—l did try. 163. But you had not been used to the catechism?— No. 164. On the second time you were impudent to Miss Mills : what was the impudence?—lt was over a fowl. She told me to chase a fowl, and I could not catch it, and she told me I was a fool, and I said I was not a fool. 165. What else did you say?—l cannot remember. 166. Did you say she was a fool?— No. 167. You say you could not get any water at all when you were at the lupins : did you ever ask the Matron about it?— No. 168. Was there water in the irrigation paddock?— Yes. 169. Was it not a fact that the girls did not take water over with them?— They used to take water with them, and then they were not allowed to. 170. Is it not a fact that if they did not take water with them they were not allowed to go back?— Yes. 171. On that particular morning, why did not the girls take water?—l asked Miss Mills if I could take water, and she would not allow me. 172. Was it your duty to take water on that morning?— No. 173. Have you never been allowed to take water to the lupins?—l have, but I have not taken water for a good while. 174. Have the other girls?— No. 175. Do you mean to suggest that the girls who go over to the lupins are not allowed to take water to drink?— They used to take water with them, but they, are not now allowed to. 176. How long is it since you have been allowed to take water?— About a month. 177. How long ago is it since you got into the cells because of this water business?— Before the Matron came back from her holidays. 178. The Matron tells me youjiave only had this lupin place since last October?— Yes. 179. How many times have you been allowed to take water there?—lt is about a month since we have been allowed to take water there. 180. Then, I understand that during last month—that is, February—you were not allowed to take water to the lupin paddock ?—We were not over there in February. 181. What do you mean by saying you were not allowed to take water there during last month if you were not there in February? How long was it before February?—ln the school holidays. 182. Do you mean to say you were over there from pleasure?—We had to work every day nearly in the holidays. We did not have to go to school in the day. 183. That would be the Christinas holidays?— Yes. 184. What was said when you were not allowed to take water?—l asked Miss Mills before we started if I could take some water over to the lupins for the girls. 185. What other girls were present when you asked that?— All the morning-school girls—about fifteen girls. 186. What did Miss Mills say?— She said the afternoon-school girls could do without water, and she did not see why we could not go without it. 187. Was there any other occasion on which you asked to be allowed to take water and were refused?— Yes.

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188. Was that before this incident or after?— About a fortnight before. 189. Were there any other occasions?— No. 190. Then these were the only two days on which you were not allowed to take water to the paddock ?—Yes. 191. On all other days you took water?— Yes. 192., You said that one day when you had a headache you were put to bed? —Yes. 193. You do not make any complaint about that, do you?—l was put to bed because I refused to go out to work. 194. Is it not a usual thing for a girl when she is not well to be put to bed?— She could go to bed if she wishes to. 195. In consequence of having a headache you were put to bed? —Yes. 196. And you say that that was punishment?— Yes. 197. I suppose the headache got better afterwards?— Yes. 198. It is true H M suggested you should abscond?— Yes. 199. You and H M agreed to abscond ?—Yes. 200. And you got up into the loft of the wash-house with a view to getting away when the place was quiet?—We went into the loft to hide. 201. Do you know you were missed, and that a search was being made all over the grounds for you ?—Yes. 202. And I think in the evening another girl, to use a popular phrase, gave you away?— Yes. 203. What was her name? —F B informed on us. 204. How did she know you were there ?—H M- told her in the morning. 205. And I think F B herself was going with you?— Not that I know of. 206. Where were you going to?—To a house in Christchurch—to Mrs. M 's. 207. Where does she live?—l do not know. She lives in Christchurch. 208. Who told you about her?—H M . 209. What were you to do there? What life had you arranged to lead after you got away from here? —H M said that before we went to Mrs. M —'s we would go to the Chinaman's and take some fruit, and I objected to go there, and I said I would leave her if she went there. 210. Was it not arranged you were to go to a house of ill-fame?—H M- was going to the Chinaman's place, and I objected to go. 211. But H M was going to that place?— Yes. 212. And when you got away from this place, if she had gone there you would have looked after yourself ?—Yes. 213. For that you got strapped?— Yes. 214. Do you consider you deserved it?— Yes, because that is the punishment for the girls who abscond. 215. You still agree that whatever was done was done in order to help you along—even the strapping?— Yes. 216. You consider that is necessary in your own case?—Oh, yes. 217. Are you short of food in this place?— No. 218. You get what food you want?— Yes. 219. You can have anything that is available without stint at all as to quantity? —We are allowed a second helping. 220. In addition to what you have told Mr. Salter, you have milk with your porridge?— Yes. 221. Tea and coffee?— Yes, and sometimes cocoa. 222. And I suppose none of you girls leave the breakfast-table hungry?—l do not know about the others. I know Ido not. 223. You have potatoes and vegetables of all kinds?— Yes. 224. When you talk about having four pieces of bread, is each piece a good thick slice off the whole round of the loaf I —Yes. 225. And you have pears and apples at tea any day you want them?— Yes. 226. It is quite a common thing for the girls to have fruit every day?— Yes, lately. 227. You say that the Matron sometimes speaks of your faults in front of the others: does she ever have a chat with you privately, and quietly about yourself? —Yes. 228. Can you give me the instance when the Matron spoke of your faults before the girls?— In the schoolroom, a little after I came here. I said I was going to run away, and she asked me, " What do want to run away for? " 229. Had you said in front of the girls you were going to run away?— Yes. 230. What did she say?— The Matron said to me, " What do you want to run away for if it is only for evil? " 231. Well, you would not be running away for good, would you?—l do not know. 232. You say she usually speaks of your faults before the girls : have you any other instance? —She has not spoken of my faults before. 233. Or since?— No. 234. Then, that is the only instance you can remember in the whole three years? —Yes, to me. 235. With regard to your complaint that Miss Mills speaks to you sharply if you turn over, do you not think there are good reasons for trying to keep the girls as quiet as possible in bed ?— She has told us it is her duty to keep us quiet. 236. Is it not necessary almost, in the interests of the girls themselves, to see they do remain quiet in their beds at night? —I do not know. 237. Mr. Hunt.] The visiting ladies come here once a week?— Yes, Mrs. Kaye.

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238. And Mrs. Smith and Mr. William Recce and Mr, Smail?—l do not know them. 239. You have an opportunity of seeing these people by themselves? —I may have had, but I did not want to. 240. You never made complaint to any of them?— No. 241. Then, Mrs. and the Rev. Mr. Inwood came to see you?— Yes. 242. Did you ever complain to him? —No. 243. When you were chopping these trees down, Mr. Bone, the farm hand, was always present? —Yes. 244. And did all the rough work? —He helped us to pull them down. 245. You have had hot water when scrubbing out the corridors sometimes? —I never had. 246. You have had limejuice when working at the lupins?—l have not. 247. Are your hands all blistered with hard work?—l have signs of it. C A examined on oath. 1. Mr. Salter.] How old are you?— Twenty on the 30th June next. 2. How long have you been in the Home?— Seven years on the 30th June next. 3. You came in on your birthday?— Yes. 4. Can you choose whether you will work at chopping down trees and so on I —We have to do it; if not, we get punished. 5. Will you tell us about going to the lupins, and whether you are able to get water to drink? —At first we were allowed to take water when we went to work at the lupins, but now we are not allowed to take it. 6. How long is it since you have not been allowed to take it?—We only took it about three mornings. 7. How long is it since you have been working at the lupins: is it more than three or four months ?—Yes. 8. When you first went you were allowed to take water ?—Yes. 9. Have you ever asked permission to take water?— Yes, and Miss Mills has refused us. 10. You do house-work?— Yes, but very little. 11. You are mostly working outside? —Yes, excepting on Saturday and Monday and Tuesday, when we are down in the laundry. 12. You have been put in the cells? —Yes. 13. Often?— Yes. 14. For how long at a time?—l was put in a whole month when I ran away. 15. You did not sleep in the cell?— Yes. 16. For a whole month?—No, for the first few nights I was back. 17. And then you were taken upstairs to sleep and brought down first thing in the morning and kept there all day?— Yes. 18. Were you in the same cell or in the detention-yard?— Mostly locked up in the cell itself. 19. And when you were in the detention-yard, what had you to do?—I had to chop knotty bits of wood and clean tin dishes. 20. Were you visited at regular intervals during the day?—No, only to bring our meals, and anything else that was very necessary. 21. Was that often?— No. 22. Were you strapped?— Yes. 23. Is that the strap [produced] that is used?--Yes. 24. How many cuts did you get?— Twelve. 25. Was any one present?— Miss McPherson. 26. Do you know why you were strapped?— For absconding. 27. You have been to service? —Yes. 28. Where?— With Mrs. B . 29. Why did you leave Mrs. B ?—Because a lot of lies were told about my sister that were not true. 30. By whom?—By the Matron and M W -. 31. Who is she? —She is a girl at service. 32. An old inmate of the Home? —Jes. 33. Did the Matron speak of these things before you to Mrs. B ?—She said some things to Mrs. B , and every time I came to the Home she talked about them to me. 34. That annoyed you, and so you ran away?— Yes. 35. Were you allowed to see your sister here?—No ; every time I came up the Matron refused to allow me to see her. 36. Have you been locked up anywhere else besides in the cell? —In the dormitory and in the coal-house. 37. How long ago is that? —About six or seven months ago. 38. How long were you in the coal-house? —From 5.30 in the afternoon until nearly 8.30. 39. Why were you there? —For striking a girl who gave me cause. 40. On another occasion you were in the cell for a shorter time? —I was in about four days, and received the strap. 41. What were you fed on there? —Dry bread for two days. 42. And what to drink?— Milk for dinner, and tea at night. 43. Do you remember Miss Hunt coming to you on the third day you were in ?—Yes. 44. And what happened?— She strapped me. 45. How many cuts did she give you? —Six, with the strap.

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46. Gentle or severe? —Very severe. I could take twelve from the Matron, but hardly six from Miss Hunt. 47. You could not see your back yourself, but the girls told you your back was marked?— Yes, and I could see it myself. 48. How could you see it? —Because the marks are up on our backs. 49. It is the lower part of the back you see? —Yes, and above the back too. 50. Did you find any difficulty in lying on your back after the strapping by Miss Hunt? — Yes. I could not lie on my back. I kept turning on my side. 51. Do you think you always deserved this punishment you got?—l do not think I deserved the strapping I got for hitting M F , because she gave me real cause. 52. Do you ever consider you were unjustly blamed for anything?— Yes. 53. Why do you think that?—l have lost plenty of marks for things I have not done. 54. Have you ever tried to explain that you were not guilty of any of the things you were charged with? —Yes. 55. What happens?— The Matron always sides with the staff, and the girl's word is never believed. 56. Does the Matron ever speak to you about your faults privately or publicly? —At times, but mostly publicly before all the other girls. 57. But sometimes she will speak to you privately?— Yes. 58. Have you ever been punished in any other way besides being strapped and sent to the cells?— Yes, I have slept in the cell with only two blankets and a pillow. 59. How many nights have you done that?— Two nights. 60. No mattress? —No. That was when I hit M F . 61. Do you ever have your ears boxed? —Yes. 62. By whom?—By the Matron. 63. Gently or how?—lt was not very gentle. 64. Why did she box your ears?— Because Miss McPherson gave me a garment to mend on a holiday, and the garment did not require it, and I said I did not see why I should spend my time doing it. 65. Because you were impudent to Miss McPherson ?—Yes. 66. Did the Matron inquire what the cause of the trouble was?— No. 67. She took Miss McPherson's word, and boxed your ears?— Yes. 68. Are you always able to eat the food that is put before you?— Yes, but it is not very nice at times. 69. If you happen to leave any, what happens to it? —It is put before us again until we do eat it, and if we do not eat it we get smacked. 70. Have you ever had a conversation with Dr. Alice Moorhouse? —Yes. 71. What about?— She said if I got into such violent tempers she would see Mr. Bishop about sending me to an asylum. 72. Do you know C T ?—Yes. 73. Do you remember C having a bad hand at one time? —Yes, she had chilblains. They broke out on her hands, and festered, and she was told to bathe them in hot water and Jeyes's fluid, and she did not do it in water as hot as Miss Hunt thought she should, and Miss Hunt came into the work-room one night and got a great basin of water just as hot as it came out of the kettle, and she held her hand in it for a long time. 74. Do you know the water was too hot? —Yes. 75. How do you know? —Because I tried it myself, and I could not keep my hand in it. 76. What was the hand like next day? —It was all blistered on top and underneath. 77. And before it was put into the hot water there was no sign of blisters?—No, it was just a sore. 78. You know H M ?—Yes. 79. Did H ever ask you to go away with her? —Yes. 80. What did she say? —She only told me if we went away she would take a place and work and clear out of Christchurch. 81. Did she suggest to you that you should go to a house of ill-repute?— She never mentioned anything like that to me. 82. Do you try your best to do what the Matron wishes?— Yes, at times. 83. Do you always succeed? —No.-' 84. Have you had a chance to go home to your father? —I do not know whether I had a chance, but he wrote down to ask whether I would like to go back again. 85. Did the Matron say anything tq you about writing a letter?— Yes, the Matron got me to write a letter to say I did not want to go home. 86. To whom?—-To the Matron. 87. Was that against your will? Did you want to go home? —Yes, I would like to have gone home. 88. Why did you write that letter? —I was told it was better to stay on at service than go home to my people, as they were not very good. 89. What happens when you lose your marks?—lf we lose the whole six we are sent to bed for a whole week's play-nights. 90. When you are at work, are the girls allowed to speaft at all to one another ?—ln the sewing-room or laundry we are not allowed to speak to one another. If we do we are reported. If we do it after that we get punished in some other way. 91. Then, you have to work in absolute silence?— Yes, unless we make a necessary remark to the staff,

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92. How often do you see your friends? —I have not seen any. Only my sister came down, and she was refused. 93. Are you allowed to write home?— Yes, once in three months; but when I asked to write to my sister I was refused. 94. Are you allowed to speak to one another at meal-times ?—Not unless the Matron is taking meals, and she gives us permission to talk very slowly. 95. If a member of the staff is taking meals you are not allowed to talk?— No. 96. What happens if you do? —We lose a mark, and sometimes we are sent out with our dinner and sometimes without it. 97. And if you are sent out without your dinner, when do you get your next meal?—At teatime. 98. Do you know anything about what is called the reception-room?— Yes. 99. Have you ever been taken in there?— No. I refuse to answer, any of these questions. 100. The Commissioner.] What kind of a room is this?—l have seen the room.--101. You have never been examined in it yourself?— No. 102. Mr. Salter.] There is some rule about the way in which you are to dress your hair?— Yes, we have to dress it back behind the ears, and plait it. If we bring it over our ears or on our necks we lose a mark. Tuesday, 3rd March, 1908. C A further examined. 103. Mr. Russell.] Before you came here, where were you living?—At Adelaide Road, Wellington. 104. And you were committed here in 1901 ? —Yes. 105. Where did the police find you just before you were committed here—in a Chinaman's house ?—Yes. 106. You were living with Chinamen?— No. 107. Were you not brought out of a Chinaman's house, and for that reason committed here? —I was taking some flowers there, and I went there with a girl named J S 108. Were you ever there but once?— That was the first time. 109. How often after that were you there?— That was the first and last time I was in that place. 110. Then, it is not true that you were living in a Chinese den in Wellington, and for that reason were committed here?— No. 111. Why were you sent here? —Because I was found there that one day. 112. You were never there before? —No. 113. What part of the house were you found in?—l was found in a front room, and then I went into a back room with some women. 114. Did the police come while you happened to be there?— Yes. 115. What is your father?—He is working at Ps stables. 116. Had you ever been in any Chinese houses in Haining Street in Wellington?— No. 117. That was the first and only occasion on which you were in a Chinese house? —Yes. 118. You are sure?— Yes. I only took some flowers to a woman named Mrs. G . 119. You are not naturally a truthful girl: you admit that yourself? —I do not always tell the truth, but in this case I do. 120. I think, if you want to tell a lie, you do not hesitate to tell one?— No. 121. Now, you and the Matron have always been on exceedingly good terms since you have been here?— Yes. 122. Has the Matron been kind to you or not, taking it all through?— Sometimes. 123. Only sometimes?— Yes. 124. Do I understand that the Matron generally has been unkind to you, and only kind to you on occasions?— Generally she has been kind to me. 125. You know the object of your being here?— Yes. 126. What is the object?—To reform. 127. To make you a good woman —is that the object?— Yes. 128. Have you not arranged Matron that she should take you to Sydney to the Exhibition?— Yes. 129. You will be twenty-one by that time?— Yes. 130. And the Matron has promised that, everything being right, she will take you and four or five other girls to Sydney at the time of the Exhibition? —Yes. 131. Does that show she is kind to you or not?—lt is just on whether I want to go or not; if I want to go, I can go with her. 132. Do you not think it is very kind of her to offer to do this when she is there on a holiday ?—Yes; but we could go ourselves if we want to. I had arranged to go with another girl before the Matron asked me. 133. What other girls were you going with?—H M . We were the first two to plan we were going. 134. When will you be out of «your time here?— Next year. 135. You have been out to two places at service—at Mr. A 's and Mrs. B 's?—Yes. 136. You went to Mr. A——'s place on the 30th January, 1906? —Yes. 137. And during that time you wrote several letters to the Matron? —Yes. 138. Were you on very friendly terms with the Matron at that time?— Yes. 139. These marks on these letters you sent to her mean kisses?— Yes.

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140. I want to read to you from one of them: "Dear Matron, —Mr. Allen gave me a day oil on Easter Monday to go to the Band of Hope, and told me not to go to the Home. I thought I was doing right and went, and when I came home I was asked who I went with, and a lot of questions, and I did not like to answer them, so I told a lie over it " : Is that right? —Yes. 141. " I said I was with Susan, and I was not. I was with a girl all day ": Is that right? —Yes. 142. When you wrote these other letters to the Matron at this time were you full of friendly feelings towards her ?—Yes. 143. That is up to 1906?— Yes. 144. You left that place and came back here?— Yes. 145. And then on the 3rd August, 1906, you went to Mr. B 's? —Yes. 146. You said yesterday that the reason you left Mr. B 's was because a lot of lies were told about your sister that were not true: is that the reason you left? —Yes; it was the truth; I did leave because the Matron told a lot of lies about my sister. 147. Do you remember when you came back being asked by Miss Mills why you left Mr. B 's?—l never gave any reason why I left. 148. Did you tell her that you were out late at night, and that Mrs. B objected to you being out late ?—Yes, I was going to run away that night, but I had no clothes, and so I went back again to wait a chance when Mrs. B was away. 149. And did you not tell Miss Mills that you cleared out from Mrs. B because she kicked up a row at your being out late at night?—l do not remember telling Miss Mills anything about it. 150. Were you angry because she objected to your being out late at night?—No; it was because of the lies told about my sister. 151. When you came back here do you remember the Matron asking you why you had absconded?— Yes. 152. And what answer did you give her? —Because Mrs. B growled at me. 153. Why did you not tell the Matron then that the reason why you left was because of the lies told about your sister ?—lt was no good, because I spoke to the Matron before I ran away about it. 154. So the reason you gave to Miss Mills was different from the reason } 7 ou gave to the Matron, and the reason you gave to the Matron is different altogether from the reason you give to the Commission ?—Yes. 155. The Commissioner.] Who is supposed to have told these lies?— The Matron. 156. Mr. Russell.] What did the Matron say?—lt is not very nice to repeat. 157. You have a sister?— Yes. 158. Living where? —She is back again in Wellington. 159. She was in service in Christchurch? —Yes. 160. And the Matron did not want your sister to visit you here?— The Matron wanted my sister to come and see me at the Home. 161. Did not the Matron ask Mrs. B not to let your sister see you at her house?— Yes. 162. Was it not on account of that that you got angry?—l told the Matron I saw my sister several times at Mrs. B 's and the Matron got very angry with me. 163. Did the Matron give you any reasons for her objection to your sister speaking to you?— Yes. 164. What were the reasons the Matron gave to you?—lt is not very nice to repeat in front of all the men. 165. Did she say your sister was immoral?— Yes. 166. Had your sister been living in Wellington before she came here? —Yes, at home and in service. 167. Did the Matron give you grounds for her belief that your sister was immoral?—-Yes. She believed what, M W had said about my sister. 168. Then the Matron said she objected to your sister going to see you while you were in service?— Yes. 169. Did you see your sister as often as you liked? —No; she said if my sister liked to come here on Sunday she could send round a note. 170. How many years is it since yoju saw your sister?— About six years. 171. You have not seen her since ?-—No. 172. If the Matron had been told things of your sister that made the Matron think it was not desirable in your own interests for you to see her, do you consider the Matron was not acting rightly in not wishing you to see her ?—Yes, but she ought to have let me find it out for myself. 173. How?—By letting me go to see my sister. My sister has said nothing wrong in speaking to me. 174. What other complaints have you got against the Home or against the Matron?—lt is not exactly against the Matron ; it is about the way we have to go out and slog at the outside work. 175. What work do you object to—wood-chopping and the lupins?— Yes, and digging 176. That is all?— Yes. 177. Then, these are all the complaints you have against the place—you think you ought not to chop wood or dig lupins or dig?— Yes. 178. With these exceptions, you have no complaints of any kind to make against the Matron or the Home?— And sometimes the way we are spoken to. 179. Then, you have four complaints?— Yes; and about the food. We get stew with the potatoes boiled in their skins, and we have to take them out and peel them.

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180. Have you any other complaints to make except these five things?—We do not sleep very warm in the winter; we have only three thin blankets. 181. Are you one of the girls who do wood-chopping? —Yes. 182. How often do you do it?— Every time we go out. 183. How often last week? —Every afternoon excepting Tuesday and Thursday. 184. How long were you at it? —From 1 o'clock to a quarter to 5. 185. No time in between ?—Unless we go to the garden, watering. 186. Who is with you?— The staff. 187. What member of the staff?— Miss Dean. 188. Has the work ever knocked you up? —Yes; we have to work whether we are in very good health or not. 189. Are you in good health or bad health? —At times I am not in good health. 190. The doctor comes periodically? —Yes. 191. Have you ever been under medical treatment?— No. 192. Have you been ill at all in the last four or five years? —No; only once when something happened. I had to do something I was made to do, and I had to go to bed for the day. 193. What were you made to do? —[Witness did not answer.] 194. Is it something you do not wish to say anything about? —Yes. 195. How do you spend your day? Take yesterday—at what time did you get up?—At 6.30 a.m. 196. What did you do then? —I dusted the passage and swept it. 197. That is the ordinary house-work? —Yes. 198. What time have you breakfast? —I think, at 8 o'clock. 199. And before you start work again you have half an hour? —No. 200. What time is breakfast over? —8.30 a.m. 201. And you have to go straight off to work from the table? —Yes. 202. What do you do?—Go to the workroom and sew. 203. For how long?— Half an hour before school. 204. And from 9 o'clock until what time are you in school? —We came out early yesterday, at 11 a.m. 205. What did you do after that?—l came in here. 206. What would you have done on an ordinary day, if the Commission had not been here? Do you have recreation? —Yes, from 1 until 1.30. 207. To do as you like?— Yes. 208. Do you start work again at 1.30?— I forget the time we have dinner. 209. After dinner, -what is your next work?—We play until 1 o'clock, and then the bell goes and we start work outside. 210. Until when do you work outside? —4.45 p.m., and we have until 5 o'clock to do as we like. 211. What work do you want to do instead of this wood-chopping?— Housework. 212. Suppose there is not enough housework for everybody?— When we go out to service our mistresses have to teach us. 213. But suppose there is not enough housework?-—There is sewing. 214. I understand you object to doing work outside the house? —Yes. 215. You want to be kept in the house and nothing else?—l do not mind washing. 216. Did you see anybody about this matter before you saw Mr. Salter? Did you see Mr. Fountain ?—No. 217. Did you see Miss Howden ?—I told Miss Howden once I had some nasty things said to me, and she told me never to mind. 218. Did she tell you the Commission was coming here? —No. 219. When did you first know there was to be a Commission? —By the papers. Miss Howden happened to speak to one of the girls. Miss Howden said to F—- — B that it was hellish to have such things said about you and to have to live in a place like this, where you could not prove what is said about you. 220. Was that referring to the things in the papers?—No, to the things the Matron said about us. 221. Did you hear Miss Howtlen say that? —Yes, I overheard it. 222. Did Miss Howden chat to you about the bad way in which the girls were treated?—No; Miss Howden was just in every way. 223. What did you understand Miss Howden to mean by saying it was hellish to live here and have things said about you?—-In order to tell her about the things the Matron said about her. 224. Did Miss Howden say the Matron would not be long here? —I did not hear her say anything in my presence. 225. Did she say her name would be "Walker"?— No. 226. Did Miss Howden tell you to remember these things, so that you could put them before the Commission ?—No. , 227. Do you know a man named Bone—the farm hand?— Yes. 228. In regard to water at the lupins, G J said there were only two days out of the whole lot when water was not allowed to be taken ?—I was in the scullery. 229. You said yesterday that the water was hardly ever taken?-—Yes. 230. So this girl is wrong when she says there were only two days on which you were short?— I was in the scullery, and the other girls were working there before me, and I knew nothing about it. 231. You were working on wages in the scullery?—Yes,

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232. How did you know, then, whether they took water or not?— When I came out of the scullery G J started a fuss about taking water over, and Miss Mills said No, they could take a drink before they went. 233. Is this girl telling the truth when she said there were only two days on which water was not taken? —I was not working there then. 234. But she was one of the lupin-diggers the whole time: how many days were you there that you can remember when water was refused ?—A can of water was taken over twice, and then one of the girls asked, before she left the kitchen, if she could take a can of water over, and Miss Mills said they did not want any, and G said she was not going to go there to work without water, and she was put in the cell for it. 235. What was the other occasion? —I asked on another occasion if I could take water myself, and Miss Mills said No. 236. Was there any other occasion ?—Yes. 237. This girl said you were allowed to take water on every occasion except twice?—We were not. 238. Did not the girls drink excessive quantities of water over there in the heat? —No. 239. Did they come out in spots?—l never saw them. 240. Do you remember the Matron making them put oatmeal with the water? —Yes, once. 241. You do not know some of the girls came out in spots owing to the water ?—No. 242. Do you know of a plot among the girls at any time to abscond when cutting the lupins? — There were two girls. 243. And you knew about it?—No, not until it was told. 244. Do you know they were going to use the excuse of going away for water as a means of getting away? —No, they were not going to ask for water at all. B W had taken fancy work there, and she was going to take it round the corner and go. 245. After you absconded from B——'s you went to Kaiapoi? —Yes. 246. Did you tell the Home people where you were?— No. 247. Did you go to Kaiapoi the same day you left B 's?- —Yes. I left Kaiapoi, and I walked on the train-line, and I saw a man, and I asked him for a lift. 248. What induced you to go to Kaiapoi? —I just took it in my head to go. 249. Had you any money?-—I had 3d. 250. No clothes?— Yes. 251. Where did you go at Kaiapoi?—To B——'s boardinghouse. 252. Was there a daughter there?— Yes. 253. Did you go with her to the Exhibition?—No; I never spoke of the Exhibition to S B . 254. Did you tell anybody that you had been down to the Exhibition with Miss B ?—No, I never mentioned I went to the Exhibition before I ran away from B 's. 255. Did you ever tell any one that you had been to the Exhibition very frequently with Miss B ?—No. 256. Did you tell Miss Mills?— Yes; she asked me questions to know what I did. 257. Was that true?—No; they tried to pump me, and I told them what I thought. 258. What made you tell her that?— Because she asked me, and I was not going to give her information. 259. You simply told her anything that came into your head, whether true or not?— Yes. 260. How long were you at work at the lupins before Christmas—two days?—l do not know. 261. You say the girls are not allowed to speak—as a matter of fact, do they not speak pretty freely?— Not unless the staff is out of the room, and they get a chance to talk." 262. And at dinner-time a book is read?— Yes. * ■ 263. So it would be very inconvenient for you all to be talking? —Yes. 264. At breakfast and tea also a book is read?— Yes, but not every morning. 265. You said you could not get all the food you wanted so far as quantity was concerned?— No; last winter we were pretty hungry. Six or seven girls made a fuss about it. 266. When was that?— Last winter. 267. What time?—l do not know the time exactly. 268. Do you mean at breakfast, or dinner, or tea?—At midday dinner. 269. What do you generally get for dinner at-midday in the'winter?—Vegetables and a little bit of meat and a few potatoes, and sometimes rice and a piece of bread. 270. In what were you short? Did you not get enough meat?—We did not get enough. There was no second helping. 271. At tea do you get plenty of bread and butter?—No ;we get two slices of it, and they are cut in half and called four pieces. 272. And jam and dripping?— Jam and dripping and sometimes butter, but very seldom butter. 273. Have you ever complained to the Matron that you do not get enough to eat? No, but girls have complained. 274. Have you ever complained?—l do not think so. 275. People come here officially visiting?— Yes. 276. You are allowed to see these people in private?— No. 277. Have you ever complained to any of these people "that you had not had enough to eat?— I never had the chance. 278. Why?— They just come into the room and walk out again. 279. Have you ever complained to any person?—No; because it is no use to complain. 280. That was only in the winter time last year?— Yes.

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■ 281. Take the last three or four mouths: have you had plenty to eat since then ?—Yes, because it is summer, and you do not want to eat much. 282. How do you account for this? There is no difference in the dietary scale in winter and slimmer, so if you had plenty to eat in the summer, why had you not enough to eat in the winter ?— Because you do not need as much in the summer as in the winter ■ i did y ° U UOt tOll the Matron y° u were hungry, and had not enough to eat?— One girl aid tell ner. plent 2B4 ' Wh ° WaS the girl? "~ Some of the girls httTC complained, and they were told they had 285. Did you ever tell the doctor you were not fed?— No. 286. Mr. Hunt.] You told us you know C T ?—Yes. 287. You said Miss Hunt put her hand in very hot water? Yes 288. Did she put her own hand in the water as well?— Not very long M f 9 'i r ?i d l Sh6 not \ a ™t h6r ° Wn hands in tlle water as slle held C '» hand under the water ?— No, she held her arm high up, and held her hand under that way 290. Miss Hunt did not put her hand in the water at all?—No, not until it was cold Ml. L 1 s hand got all right after it?— Yes. Ill' 5° 7 ? U kn ° W What time of tne y ear was?—ln the winter. 293. lou have a very bad temper sometimes?— Yes. 294. And you threatened to kill a girl?— Yes, in temper 295. And that was what you were locked up for ?-It was for striking a girl I was locked uv 296. That was the same girl you threatened to kill?— Yes P ' 297. You have been taken out to service by the Matron several times?— Twice told me that 70Ur IUiStr6SS W ° Uld not haVe y ° U back again after y° u ran away?-She never 300' In U tlS > r t !i ke + T k **, a " w 1 d ° UOt miDd h but not outside work. 30l' Zf t M T IWe f ° U n d faUlt Wlth yOU? - Z do not know that have. 301. Most of them?— They are all pretty fond of doing it. 302. Except Miss Howden?—l always worked well for Miss Howden. 303. And not for the others ?-I liked her best, because she did not bully us Kaye 3 dts Y n°ot °come *" *'" and Friday nigL. Sometimes Mrs. never thought * *""*> h ™ »°"~* 306. You have had opportunities to do so?—I was never told to do it. Ml, You never made any complaints until you made them to Miss Howden?—l never uohlp any oomplaxnta to Miss Howden. I only told her what was said about my sister ' 308. Y OU hke working m the lupins?—No, Ido not go out'titSMiss'Miir aSk6d t0 g ° ° d ° IWt th] ' nk Z haVe asked t0 * asked to 310. You did not complain about the scrubbing ?—No 311. You had plenty of hot water in the cold weather to scrub with?—No, only cold 312. You never had hot water ?-Not if the staff has been upstairs. ? 313. You never had hot water?— When I had the chance I took it from the tops. agalMt * 0 water?^ ™ are not allowed to take hot water 515: wh o r?-iTo c tr p g la rk t0 any one after the ■"•pp^"--tell me'it^'mrrigr 151 ' 111 * " ""nt* ?-No; because they would only 318. Did you ever complain to Miss Howden?—No lII ?? ow , llogn g did the m arks remain I— Two or three days 991 m cTf had v a g °° d many stra PPings since you have been here?— Yes had not enough t e I;l?!- O YeI aid ** * ** "™ of the qMs had ««*!«"«* *at they it o/not Ymfif^r 6116 ? J*** *°l & W eek?-We got a plateful of stuff whether we wanted 5£ LTtimS ZOZ 22f iT«H to paBS our plates up and back fill ouTpla^sTaSnruSlut 011 """ *» Matron told the staff to f 4 ; Some of girls were afterwards sick through eating too much?— They were not ouite sick, but I was nearly sick through eating too much. 3 q 325 How long is it since fruit was supplied to the girls at meals J—We get fruit when it is tee to be got-sometimes for dinner and sometimes for tea. We get two pfars and lometiW -Yef 6 ' And 70U C ° mplain ° f oUtSide Wo '" k beCaUSe lt is more men 's work than women's? you been strapped in the iast tw ° ** cutsffndtt StraPP6d by th 6 Matron? - By the Mat ™«' **> I got twelve So' A^lW^^r^" 1 * give y o »?-Six, as hard as she could come down, fromte' * °° Uld ««* d *ake twelve

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331. How was the strapping done? —I was laid on my face on the bed. 332. And what had you over you?— Just a nightgown. 333. What is the nightgown made of?— Calico. 334. And where were you strapped: On what part of the body?— Sometimes across the back, and sometimes lower down. 335. Always through the nightgown?— Yes. 336. And what is the most you have had at any one time?— Twelve cuts. 337. And when they are twelve they have always been inflicted by the Matron?--Not always; some girls have had it by the staff. 338. I am speaking of your own experience?— Yes. 339. Who was present at this strapping?— Miss McPherson with the Matron, and Miss Mills with Miss Hunt. 340. Is it always inflicted with the broad end of the strap?— Yes. 341. And are the strokes quickly inflicted, or is there any time between the strokes? —A minute sometimes between the strokes. 342. I suppose it seems very long between the strokes to you?— Yes. 343. Are you told anything before the punishment or after it? What does the Matron say to you?— She just comes and says, " It is my painful duty." 344. And tells you what it is for?— Yes. 345. So you quite understand it is on account of something you have done that is not right? —Yes. 346. Is this the strap [produced]?— Yes. 347. Where is this strapping done? —Sometimes in the cell. I had my strapping from Miss Hunt on the bare floor, in my nightdress. 348. What was that for ?—For fighting with M F . 349. Was that on the same day? —No; I think either two or three days afterwards. 350. Have you ever had this garment [the runaway dress produced] on? —I have had one like that. 351. What is it put on for?— For absconding. 352. Only for absconding? —If we threaten we will run away we get that. 353. For how long?—lf we run away we are supposed to keep that on for three months. If we do not ask to get them taken off they are kept on as long as the Matron likes to keep them. 354. Is the dress you are wearing now your ordinary dress at the Home? —Yes. 355. You are not dressed up for to-day?— No. 356. That is the dress you wear every day?— Yes; but some are worse than this. 357. What is the effect of wearing this dress?— Not much. 358. Do the other girls make any remarks about it?— No. 359. Are you teased about it?— No. 360. Do you like wearing it, or does it make any difference to you?—lt does some. 361. How does it?— Everybody sees it who comes round. 362. And everybody sees that you have not been a good girl?— Yes. 363. Mr. Salter.] Once when you had your ears boxed, were you deaf after it? —Yes, there was a buzzing in my ears. 364. Had you to go to the doctor about it?—l told the doctor about it. 365. What doctor?— Doctor Alice Moorhouse. 366. Did she examine your ears? —No; but they were sore for some time afterwards. 367. Were you deaf? —Not exactly, but I could not hear as plainly as I did before. 368. And the doctor did not examine them? —No. 369. The Commissioner.] How often were your ears boxed? —A good few times. 370. Always by the Matron?— Yes. 371. For what?— Once I did not eat. my dry bread in the cell. I would not eat it, and the Matron boxed my ears and smacked my head, and banged it up against the wall, and that is where justice came in. Another girl was brought home from service, and all our faults were told. We get accused for badness when we run away. They say we do not run away for any good, only bad. This girl had done something at service, and the Matron said she was not going to hurt C 's feelings. C would not eat her dry bread, and she was not made to eat it. 372. Mr. Hunt.] C- did not iffn away?—No, but she had done something at service. I was not put in for running away, but only for impudence. J P examined on oath. 1. Mr. Salter.] How old are you?— Nearly twenty. 2. How long have you been in the Home?— Four years. 3. Have you been to service? —For six weeks. 4. How long is it since you were at service?—A year last month. 5. Why did you leave service and come back to the Home?— Because I wanted to be with my sister, who is also an inmate of this Home. 6. You are one of the girls who do outside work amongst the trees and lupins? Yes. 7. I think you have had to go up these high trees with a rope?— Yes, I have climbed up with a rope. 8. You had to tie the rope round you waist and climb the tree, and tie it to the tree? Yes. 9. How do you find this work?— Very tiring. 10. You think it is too hard for you?—-Yes. 11. How often do you work at this hard work outside?— Nearly every morning. Sometimes I get a mouth inside.

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12. And the rest of the da}' you go to school? —Yes. 13. Have you been put in the cells at all?— Not in the last two years. 14. You have not been in the cells for two years?— No. 15. When you go to work at the lupins, what chance have you to get water? Are you allowed to take it?- —We used to at first, and then the Matron said it made us ill, and we never got it after that. 16. Have you ever asked for it when working at the lupins?— Yes. 17. What has the attendant said to you?— She said we could get it when we went home. 18. The Commissioner.] Have you felt very thirsty when working?— Yes. 19. Mr. Salter.] Have you ever asked, when working at the lupins, to be allowed to leave off for any purpose?— Yes. 20. And what has been said to you then?—We should attend to ourselves before we go out. 21. You know H M ?—Yes. 22. Did she ever ask you to leave the Home with her? —Yes. 23. What did you say?—l said I would not go with her. 24. She asked other girls too, I believe?— Yes. 25. Have you any complaint to make about the food you get? —I get enough of it. 26. What about your tea? Do you get sugar in it? —No. 27. You are not allowed sugar?—We do not get it. 28. Do you get butter at all?— Twice a week. 29. At other times you get dripping and jam?— Yes. 30. Have you had to do scrubbing in the winter time upstairs?— Yes. 31. How do you have to do it?— Without boots and stockings. 32. What kind of water do you use for it? —We take hot water out of the tap. 33. Always?— Well, we take it. I have always taken it. 34. The Commissioner .] Are you punished if you take it?— No. 35. Mr. Salter.] Has any one caught you taking it, and objected?—l have never been caught. 36. When it is a question of difference between the girls and the staff, whose side does the Matron generally take?— She always puts the staff in the right. 37. No matter what you girls say?— Yes; sometimes when we get reported, and we tell the Matron, she says it will not hurt us to be reported. 38. When the girls put their side of the story before her, does the Matron ever tell you she disbelieves you, and believes the staff? —She has told some of the girls, but she has never told me. 39. Have you heard the Matron make use of names towards the girls that you did not think right?— Yes; she told my sister that she was like an enraged animal. 40. Have you ever heard the Matron calling girls any other names? —I have heard the Matron calling them beasts. 41. When all the girls have been together?—ln the prayer-room. We always have a talk before prayers, and she said that then. We always bring up our grievances then. 42. Before having prayers she has called you beasts?— Yes. 43. And then she has had prayers with you?— Yes. 44. Do you remember one time when some of the girls were taken ill through eating fish? —Yes. 45. What did it look like when it was put on the table? —It looked greyish-black. 46. It looked bad?— Yes, and it smelt bad, too. 47. Did you object to eat it?— One of the girls turned up her nose at it, and I told the staff that a girl would not eat the fish, and that she had given it away. The staff asked why she would not eat it, and she said because it was bad. Miss Mills went over and told this girl she could leave it. 48. And did the girls eat it? —I do not know. Some of them did -net say anj'thing about it. 49. I believe they had the doctor for this? —Yes. 50. You know A M ?—Yes. 51. I believe she has died since she was here? —Yes. 52. Do you remember on one occasion her throat being bad? Tell us what happened?— She was stood in the passage. 53. How was she dressed? — nightdress. 54. By whom was she stood there?—By Miss Mills. 55. Did she tell Miss Mills her throat was bad? —I never heard her. 56. How do you know her throat was bad?— Because she told me. I got her stuff to gargle it with. 57. And although her throat was bad she was stood in the passage? —Yes. 58. How long was she there? —Two hours, whilst the staff was down for supper. 59. Had she anything on her feet? —No, she was only in her nightdress. 60. What happens to you girls if you talk when you go to bed ?—We have to stand in the passage until we are all silent. 61. Is any objection made to you moving about in bed at night? —Yes. 62. If you want to turn over, what happens?— Miss Mills sings out "Lie still; you are keeping me awake." 63. Does she say anything else?— She says we are not doing the right thing. 64. Has she ever said that to you?— Yes. 65. What did you say? —I told her to get back to bed, and not be so disgusting. 66. Do you know what she was referring to? —Yes. 67. Have you ever had your ears boxed? —No.

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68. Have you seen any other girl's ears boxed? —Yes; F B , in the schoolroom. 69. Who boxed them?— The Matron. 70. How does she box them—lightly or how? —As if she meant, it. 71. Is there any other matter you want to mention? Is there any complaint you have to make about your treatment here? —No. 72. Mr. Russell.] When was it the Matron said you acted like beasts, or that you were beasts? —At the prayer-time, when the girls were running away. 73. How long ago?— When F B ran away. 74. What led up to that remark?--We asked her about F , and she said she came home, and was a dirty filthy beast. 75. Did she not say she had acted like a beast?— No. 76. She did not say you were all beasts? —Oh no. 77. Where had F B been? She had absconded had she not? —Yes. 78. Do you know what she had been doing while away —living with a man ?—I was not with her to see if she did do it. 79. But it. was with regard to that girl only that the words were used? —Yes; and when other girls ran away she said the same. 80. But on that occasion a few months ago it was in reference to what F B had been doing?— Yes. 81. And on other occasions when girls who had absconded came back the Matron said they had been acting like beasts? —Yes. 82. You know what the Matron meant by that?— She meant they were beasts. 83. You really have no complaint against the Home?— No. 84. You are well looked after here and well fed? —Yes; I get enough to eat, 85. Well housed and good beds?— Yes. 86. You are taught in school every day, and they are doing the best they can for you?- —Yes. 87. And really you have nothing to say against the Home or the Matron. You are friendly with the Matron ?—Yes. 88. And you have nothing to say against her or the Home? —Nothing, except what I have said here. 89. That you do not like chopping wood?— Yes. 90. And what else? —And going about in bare feet and catching colds. 91. In the winter time? —Every time. We have to go in the dormitories in bare feet. I think we ought to have slippers. 92. You say when you have to scrub you have taken hot water from the tap?— Yes. 93. You were not frightened you would be punished for it, were you?—No; I just took it. 94. The other girls could have taken it?— They say they would get reported. I was never told I would be reported, so I just took it. 95. Was this girl A M under medical treatment for her throat?— No. 96. Did she get all right?—l. do not know. She died after leaving here. 97. How long after leaving here was it before she died? —I do not know. Not more than three months. 98. Mr. Hunt.] You say you went up the trees?— Yes. 99. Did you offer to go up?— Yes. 100. They asked who would go up?— Yes, and I said I would. 101. And Mr. Bone was always there?— Yes. 102. Did you ever ask for sugar in your tea?— Yes; I asked the Matron, and was told it was already there. 103. You have seen sugar go into it?— Yes, but we have never been able to taste it. 104. When first you came to the Home you girls had slippers?—l do not know. 105. Did you have slippers?—l never had. 106. The boots you wear are rather heavy?--Yes. they are strong. 107. They would not do to walk about on boards with?— No. 108. The attendants are never two hours away for supper?—l do not know. Sometimes we hear them down long enough, talking. 109. But you are never left alone for two hours?—l do not know. 110. You are perfectly friendly with Miss Hunt and the other attendants?— Yes. 111. You have no complaint against them at all? —No. 112. Were you present when the girl's hand was put in hot water?— Yes. 113. Did you see Miss Hunt put her hand in?—l put my own hand in just before. 114. Was it too hot?—No; it was just right for my hand. Miss Hunt told me and E C to feel it. 115. Did you see Miss Hunt put her own hand in and hold T 's hand in?— Yes. 116. Mr. Salter.] Was it before C T 's hand was put in that yours was in?— Yes, not a second before. 117. When you said you offered to go up the trees, was it necessary for one of the girls to go up?— Yes. 118. Did Mr. Bone ever say he would go up?—l never heard him say it. 119. One of the girls was expected to go up?— Yes. 120. And you said you would go?—We all offered to go. We used to fight to get up the trees. 121. Why?— Because we used to like it. 122. But you did not like splitting and cross-cutting?—We climbed for bird-nesting for our own amusement, 123. Th<e Commissioner.] Have you ever been strapped? —Not in the last two years,

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124. Have you been punished at all, then, during the last two years?—l have been sent to bed. 125. Nothing more serious than being sent to bed?— Not that I know of. 126. You have not had this coloured garment on?— No. 127. You have seen other girls to them? —Yes. 128. When you see a girl with this garment on, do you make any remark about it?- —We ask her where she was going to. 129. Nothing else?— No. H M examined on oath. 1. Mr. Salter.] How old are you? —I am nineteen in June. 2. How long have you been in the Home? —Four years next August. 3. And you, in common with the other girls, do work amongst the trees —splitting and so forth? —Yes. 4. Do you object to that work ?—I do not think it is nice work for any young woman to do. 5. Do you work amongst the lupins?— Yes. 6. What do you say about the want of water?—We have gone over there on several occasions, and. we have not had water, and we have asked if we could take it over, and the staff has told us we should have had a drink before we went over. 7. You are not allowed to take it?— Sometimes we are. 8. How often have you been allowed to take it?— One day when we were over there the Matron sent us over a drink of tea, and on another occasion we took over a bucket of oatmeal water, and on another day we took over a bucket of clean water. Other days we have gone over without water, and have asked for it, and the staff has told us we should have had a drink before we left. 9. Have you anything to say about the food you get here?— Yes; T do not think we get substantial food for the work we do. 10. Is there enough?— Sometimes 1 have felt hungry after dinner-time, and have told Miss Simpson and the Matron. I told the Matron I was hungry one day and she gave me some toast and butter. 11. Was that after dinner? —Yes; one Saturday. 12. What do you usually have with your tea, say? —Four pieces of bread—two with dripping and two with jam. 13. Is there plenty of jam on it?— No. 14. Have you any complaint to make about the tea you get to drink?— Yes; we do not get very good tea. On Tuesday nights we always say we get a decent cup of tea; on other nights the tea is poured out from the staff's pot into a jug, and if it is not sufficient other tea is added to it, and it is put into the big teapot and sweetened, and we have that. 15. You have been to service?— Yes. 16. When did you go?---The 10th August last year. 17. Where did you go to? —Mrs. M 's, at Opawa, 18. How long were you there?— Until the 6th October following. 19. Why did you leave there?—l did not know I was going to leave. The Matron said she would not bring me back unless I had been misbehaving myself or carrying on with boys. I did not know I was going back until the Friday morning, when I was taken back unawares, and I had not been carrying on with boys. 20. You would not do such a thing?— No. 21. Do you remember going to town one Sunday with E S ?—Yes. 22. What happened then?—We were told that we were to go to church. We did not go to church; we went on into town, disobeying the Matron on that point; and when we got into town we did not go to church at all, and we met some of the other service girls. 23. The fact is you did not go to church?— No. 24. You went back to your place that night?—No: we stayed in town, and I went home by the twenty past 8 car instead of going to church. 25. What happened in the following week?—-I was back in my situation the following week, and on Friday morning I was brought back to the Home. I did not know I was going back! When I came back the Matron said to me, on Friday night, what she had brought me back for in front of all the girls, and she said some very disagreeable things to me. 26. Do you mind telling us one or two of the things she said : it does not matter: we only want to get at the truth ?—She said"'Mrs. M told her I had men in the house, and she said Mrs. M—— gave a sigh of relief when I left her house. She said some other very nasty things to me, which I would not like to mention. 27. What happened then? What did you tell the Matron?— That was on Friday night. I told the girls when I came back I intended to behave myself. C A said " Behave yourself, and you will get back, again." Miss Hunt told me if I behaved myself I would get out 'again to service. After the Matron said these things to me I told the girls I would not stop in the Home. That was Sunday night. Some of the girls had not got their correct marks, and they said they would not. stop in the Home, and I said I would not stop here. I told them I would abscond, and I asked one of the girls to go with me. I asked several girls to go with me. 28. Did you get away?—No; we were going to go, but we did not get away. 29. Tell me the real reason why you wanted to get away from the Home? Because the Matron said these things to me, and because T did not think I should have been brought back to the Home for the reasons for which I had been blamed, as they were not true. 30. Did you tell any of the girls you intended to go to an evil house when you got away«—l did not say that at all. All I said was that I was going to S H 's sister—where she worked. She is not a very good girl, S H 's sister.

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3.1. What punishment did you get for attempting to abscond? —At dinner-time on Tuesday the Matron came as I was going down the passage, and she thumped me on my back down the passage. 32. Where did she thump you? —She punched me on the back into the cell. That was on the Tuesday. I got three meals of dry bread and a cup of milk, and on Thursday or Friday—l am not quite sure which—l got ten strokes of the strap on a mattress on the floor. 33. Is that the strap used [produced]?— Yes, I think so. 34. Were you made to lie on a mattress on the floor ?—Yes. 35. Was any one present when these strokes were administered? —Yes, Miss Hunt witnessed. 36. Were they fairly heavy strokes? —Yes, very heavy. The Matron told me she was going to give them as hard as she could lay them on. 37. And she did?— Yes. 38. How long were you in the cell?—I was in the cell, I think, but lam not quite sure, a week. I came out on the following Sunday. 39. And you went in on a Tuesday morning?— Yes. 40. The Commissioner.] Were you in the cell the whole time?—l slept in the cell Tuesday and Wednesday nights, and one or two nights in the dormitory after that. Then I was taken back to the cell first thing in the morning and locked in until about 10 o'clock, and then one of the staff let me out into the detention-yard. 41. Mr. Salter.] How long ago was this?— Last October. 42. During the time you were locked up in the cell, were you visited by any one except at meal-time?— No. On one occasion Miss Mills came in; that was the second time I ran away. I got up in the loft, and was there all day. All I had on was my nightdress, and a blanket and a pillow without a pillow-case and no mattress. : 43. Miss Mills came in to see you ?—Yes, on Sunday morning, just to ask me about the other girls who had run away. She asked me if I saw anything about them from the loft, and I said Yes. 44. Is that the only occasion during that day on which you were visited except at meal-times? —Yes. 45. When you have absconded, and have been put in the cell, what meals do you get for the following day?— Three meals of dry bread and water. 46. You never go from one morning until the next morning without food?— No. On Saturday morning I got into the loft about 10 o'clock, and I never had anything to eat until the Sunday morning at 9 o'clock, when I had dry bread and water. 47. When they found you and brought you in they did not give you anything to eat?—No not until Sunday morning. 48. Did you have one of these pretty dresses [the runaway dress produced] on when you came out?— Yes. 49. How long did you wear that?—l wore that until January. 50. Were you present when G J had six strokes ?—I was locked in the other cell 51. When was it you had your hair cut off?—On the 9th November—Show Day. That is the day I had twelve strokes with the strap. 52. Do you know anything about the room called the reception-room?— Yes. 53. Have you ever been taken there?— No. ; 54. Have you ever heard the Matron make remarks about certain girls before the other girls?— Yes. 55. What have you heard ?—She always tells us when a girl comes back from service what she does, and there is always something disagreeable about that; and certain names she calls the girls. 56 What are the names?— She called one girl "an infuriated animal." She called L I a vulgar brawler." 57. What else?— She tells the girls they cannot contain themselves when there is a man on the premises. 58. How do you get on ordinarily with the members of the staff?—l get on fairly well with the staff. Sometimes I get blamed for things Ido not do, and I get punished for it. 59. Do visitors ever come along?— Yes; but I never speak to"them. 60. Have you ever been told you may speak to the Official Visitor about anything?—l never asked to speak to the Official Visitor, because I was told by another girl I was not allowed to speak to them. Another girl told the doctor that the Matron boxed her ears, and she had a time of it. 61. Can you tell me the name of the girl to whom this happened?—C A complained to the doctor that the Matron boxed her ears, and C said she got a time of it afterwards- so 1 made up my mind I would not get a time of it, and so I kept quiet. • 6 m\. A ™ the girk here ever allowed to read the newspaper, or to hear about what is going on ?—The Matron at prayer-time tells us what is going on in town, and if anything big or special selves 11 * 1 m llews P a P ers s h e tells us, but we are never allowed to read'the newspapers 0ur.63 Are you allowed to talk to one another at meal-times ?—No; we do it, but it is against the rules, and if we are found out we are sent from the room, without being allowed to finish our XiiBSLl. 64. Supposing you were to speak to another girl at the beginning of a meal and were sent out, would youget anything until the next meal-time ?—We do get it sent out to us sometimes but not always. When it is sent out we get half-rations.

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65 Is there any other matter I have not asked you about that you wish to mention to the Commissioner ?—Yes; I would like to say the staff are very snappy to the girls, and not at all civil always to us. . m 66. The Commissioner:] Which of the staff do you apply that to particularly ?—To Miss Dean particularly. . „ 67. Mr. Salter.] Do they not make any attempt to win your confidence or to talk in a friendly way to you?—At times they do, but they sometimes have their favourites in the Home. If some of us do the least thing we get punished, and some girls can do as they like and they do not get punished as we do. 68. Then, you consider there is favouritism shown? —Yes. Wednesday, the 4th March, 1908. H- M further examined. 69 Mr Salter.] Where have you been kept since the examination of yesterday?—l have been kept in the cell. I was put in the bedroom directly after I left this room, and I went down to the cell last night about 7 o'clock. 70. And were locked up?— Yes. 71 And when were you let out? —Just now, when I came here. 72. Were the Other girls kept in the cell too?—No, the other three were up together in the dormitory. 73. Had you proper bed-clothes? —Yes. . , 74. Mr. Russell.] The cell is just as good as your ordinary bedroom?—lt is far colder in the cell than in the dormitory. 75. Were you cold last night? —Not very cold. 76. But the room is airy enough?— Yes; it has ventilation at the top. 77. And the light is good?—I had a lamp put there to tidy up the detention-yard. 78. What time do you usually go to bed inside?—B o'clock. 79. What time did" you go to bed last night? —7 o'clock. 80. Did you go to bed at once?—l stayed up a little time, and read a book. 81. Until what time? —Not quite 8 o'clock. 82. And the other three girls who have already given evidence are kept away from the other girls ?—Yes, they are together in the dormitory. 83. You know you were not put there as a punishment? —Yes. 84. Were you told that the reason was that they did not want you to talk to the other girls until you had given evidence? —Yes. 85. I suppose if you had been mixing with the other girls they would have wanted to know what happened yesterday? —Yes. 86. When will you be twenty-one? —June two years hence. 87. It is your desire when you leave here to be a respectable woman? —Yes. 88. You have no wish in any way to the contrary?— No. 89. And are you satisfied that it is the object of the Matron and staff here to help you when you leave here to be a respectable woman? —Yes. 90. You are quite satisfied on that point? —Yes. 91. And do you think they are doing the best they can with the methods at their command to help you along on a good path?— Yes, I think so, so far as behaviour goes. 92. You think, whatever little objection you may have to some things, that the people here, from the Matron downwards, are doing their best to try and help you into a proper path of life? Yes. 93 Are you satisfied that if you had been allowed to follow your own inclination you would not, in'the ordinary course, have been a respectable woman ?—No; I would have been respectable even if I had not been here. 94 Do you not think, if you had been allowed to have your own way, and follow your own desires exactly as you wanted, there would have been a chance of men leading you astray ?—I do not think so at all. 95. You think if you went out of the Home to-day you would be quite competent to take care of yourself?— Yes, so far as respectability went, I would. 96. Your complaints seem to be very small, considering all they are doing for you : for one thing, you complain that you do not like the work in the trees?— Yes. 97". That you do not get some water when working in the lupin paddock? —Yes. 98. And that your food is not quite what you wish?— Yes. 99 That the tea is not very good sometimes? —Yes. 100. And that you were brought back from Mrs. M 's?—Yes, and had some very nasty things said about me which I do not think were proper. 101. That is all your complaints?— Yes. 102. If you had these remedied you would be quite satisfied to be here? —Yes, I would be quite content to stay here if .I was treated justly. " 103 When you were at the M 's did you behave yourself with propriety ?—No, I disobeyed her on several points; and the Matron said when I disobeyed her I did wrong things. I disobeyed the Matron on some points, but I was not guilty of what she accused me. 104. What did the Matron accuse you of ?—Of having men in the house, which was not true; and she accused me of doing all sorts of things which I did not do,

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105. Did you ask the Matron how she knew or had heard that you had had men in the house? —She told me Mrs. M told her so. 106. Do you believe the Matron thought you had had these men in the house? —I do not know. Ido not think Mrs. M said it. 107. Why should you think the Matron would want to take you back from service if she was trying to do the best for you ?—She told me she had a letter from one of the service girls, and she told me several points in the letter which I did not think were true. I have since asked the girls who were with me about these things, and they said they were not true. They were with me at the time the Matron said I did these things. 108. Do you not think the Matron had reasonable grounds to believe it if any of the girls saw you with some of these boys, and Mrs. M told her?-—I do not think Mrs. M said it. 109. The Matron put you to service? —-Yes. 110. Why should she want to withdraw you?—l think it was disobeying her that caused her to bring me back. 111. Do you remember one Sunday night in September being in Cathedral Square?— Yes. 112. Were you with boys?— Yes, I was with a young man with E S , and two or three other service girls. 113. What was his name?—l do not know. 114. How did you come to meet him?— Going down from the Home in the car. This young fellow was on the car, and he spoke to E , and he asked her if he could take her home, and she said Yes. After a little we left him, and when we were going back she promised to meet him, and as I was going past the lamp-post just in front of the Cathedral a young boy named BA was there, whom I knew before I came here. He spoke to me, and he walked down as far as the Supply Stores with me, in Sydenham. I then left E , and she went home with the young man she was with, and I went home in the car by myself. 115. Do you know a girl named N ? —Yes. 116. Do you remember meeting her one Sunday night? —I remember leaving here with her. 117. I will read this letter, and you can tell me whether it is true or not. This is a letter written by a girl to the Matron while you were at M 's : " Dear Matron, —I went to the Hills yesterday afternoon, and returned to town about eighteen minutes after 6. We thought we would like to go to church, but as we met H we stopped to ask how things were getting along " : Do you remember meeting her? —Yes. 118. "'She told N and I she had an appointment for half past 6, and we thought we would watch her " : Do you remember telling her of an appointment for 6.3o?—Yes. 119. Then the first part of the letter is true?— Yes. 120. Were you over near Chancery Lane?— Yes. 121. " There she was over by Chancery Lane with a young fellow " : Is that true?— Yes. 122. "At half past 7 she was standing in front of the Cathedral with another boy. At a quarter to 8 she went back to meet some fellows at Chancery Lane again, and at 8 o'clock went round the river towards Armagh Street Bridge again with them " : Is that true?— That is not true. 123. How long have you been in Christchurch?—Since I was ten. 124. '' I thought I watched her long enough, so came home, wondering how she was getting along. I thought it disgusting to see a girl like H laughing and roaring in the street as she behaved " : Were you laughing and roaring in the street?— No. 125. You say that letter is only partially true?—lt is only partly true, because I arranged with N by telephone to meet her in town. We had arranged to meet each other at the tram. 126. "Well, I hope you will excuse writing and mistakes, as I am in a great hurry, for if H — comes to grief you will blame us girls. So now you know how H goes to church, and I believe she roams the town Saturday nights, for what I don't know." Were you ever in town on Saturday nights?— Yes, one Saturday night. As it happens the girl who wrote that letter was the girl who played truant wdth me on Sunday night. 127. Do you remember that while you were at M 's anything happened there — any impropriety with men, that you could blame yourself about?—No, not with men. One night N and E came down to Mrs. M 's to tea, and after we had tea we went out, and I came half-way into town with N and a young boy I had kept company with until Matron disapproved of it, and when she disapproved of it I kept company no longer. His name is P C . I never spoke to him after that.. That is the only occasion the girls came down to tea and disobeyed Matron. 128. When you came back, did you use these- words to the Matron : "I wondered how long you were going to allow me to carry on as I was doing. lam ashamed of myself "?—No. The Matron said Mrs. M told her she was glad to get me out of her sight. 1 am sure Mrs. M did not say that, because she was very sorry that I was leaving. The Matron said, "Do you expect me to leave you out under these circumstances? " and I said " No"; and I told the Matron that the girls who had complained had been doing exactly the same themselves. That is what I said to the Matron. 129. Do you think Mrs. M never said these things?—-No. 130. I will read what Mrs. M says, in writing to the Matron, "I have just engaged a general who is coming to me on Friday afternoon. I would like II to leave the house before she comes, so will you please send for her about midday on that day." Are you surprised Mrs. M——wrote that?— Yes. 131. Are you surprised at this: "I am very much deceived in II , and she will not willingly return to the Home. This lam sure about." Why should she write she was very much deceived about you ?—I do not know, except because I had girls in to tea and I played truant from church, and I certainly told lies about that. I deceived her several times.

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132. You deny that when you came back you used any words to the Matron about wondering how long she was going to allow you to carry on ?—I did not say that. 133. When you came back you were punished? —Yes. 134. And from that time until now you have deliberately said you were going to abscond? — Not until just now. I said it up to February. Just a month ago I said I would. 135. When did you come back? —In October. 136. And from October until last month you have openly defied the authorities here?—l have said straight out, in front of several of the staff and all the girls, that I would abscond. 137. And have you not been trying your best to get other girls to go with you? —I have not. 138. No other girls?—l asked one girl since I had the runaway dress off —B S- . 139. Were you not in the loft with other girls? —That was before I had the runaway dress off. 140. Did you not ask these girls to abscond? —Yes, A B , M H , and I spoke to F B one day and C A. . 141. You have told them openly you will abscond? —Yes. 142. And I take it you will abscond if you get the chance? —No, I would not now. 143. Why?— Simply because 1 have bad my hair cut off. 144. Otherwise you would? —Yes. If they gave me reason to go I would go. 145. Do you say that the Matron punished you unjustly when you came back?— Yes. 146. Because you had given no reason? —I had given reason. I had certainly said I would abscond. Several of the girls had said they would abscond, and 1 never asked them to, and they said I was unjustly punished because they did exactly the same as me. The Matron said she would punish me for an example. 147. You have been the ringleader in getting up absconding parties?—l have in some cases. 148. Then you did abscond? —No; I did not get off the premises. 149. You had been chopping wood a long time before you went to Mrs. M 's?—Yes. 150. And when you got to Malcolm's you had then no complaints against the Home?— Yes, 1 told Mrs. M the Matron was very unjust. 151. And 3~ou thought she was?— Yes. 152. Did you write to the Matron while you were there?— Yes, two or three letters. 153. Did you. have any bad feeling in your mind on that account?—No, not when I went to service. 154. I will read a letter you wrote when there: " My Dearest Matron, —I here begin my first letter at service. I must first of all thank you for this nice place j'ou have given me. I can't realise that I am really in the possession of such a good mistress and a comfortable happy home. My word, Matron, you are mean. You might have given me a hint. I was not in the least prepared. And now I have at last got my chance I am going to prove myself grateful both for the Te Oranga training and for the kindness you have done me in getting me this comfortable home. Really, Matron, I feel now how ungrateful I was to you. But never mind, Matron, it all comes to him who waits. The girls, when you read this, may think lam a turncoat, for I own 1 was not one who always spoke well of the Home and I often said unkind things of you and your staff; but now I see how mean and ungrateful I was." This was written last year: how many years had you been here when you wrote this ?—Three years. 155. At that time, when you got into a situation, and were enabled to regard things from an outside point of view, you were satisfied you had everything to be grateful for to this Home? — I had in some points. I did not have the treatment during the whole of the three years that 1 have since I have been back from service. 156. I ma}' take it that all your complaints against the Home have arisen since you came back ?—Yes, the majority have. 157. Up to this time you were quite satisfied, and grateful, for what had been done for you?— Yes. 158. Your complaints are now of matters which have been brought up since this letter was written I —l had several complaints about the work before I went to service, which I would have said just the same as now. I said these things in this letter, but I had often said in the Home that the work was not suitable for me. I had often growled about it, and been punished for it. 159. You w-ere very comfortable at Mrs. M 's?—Yes. 160. Do I understand you to say your complaint is that you ought not to have had any punishment at all ?—No ; I was quite willing to take my share of the punishment, but I reckon I had more punishment than was cfue to me. 161. How much do you reckon you should have got?—l was quite willing to take six strokes for attempting to run away. I was quite willing to take twelve strokes when I tried to abscond, but I reckon I should not have had three meals of dry bread and water and nearly a week in the cell and my hair cut off. 162. But you said it was only cutting your hair off that stopped you. Where were you going to after you got away?—l was going to get a place for myself. 163. Were you going to H 's sister? —Yes. 164. Do you consider she is a proper woman for a respectable young girl to go to? —No; but I thought she was really the only one in the town who would give me a home. I thought my other friends would tell the Matron about me. 165. What sort of home was she going to give you?—l thought she might get me a situation. 166. You know her character? —I have heard one or two things about her. 167. And you were willing to go to her?— Yes, because I knew she would be willing to take me in. 168. You would have no clothes with you?— Only the clothes on me 169. No certificate?--No.

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170. And you would have to admit you had been in Te Oranga Home?— Yes. 171. What sort of situation did you expect that woman to get you?— With one of her friends in town. 172. Some of the other girls said you had arranged with them to go to a bad house in town; is there any truth in that? —No, I know of no bad house in town. She is the only woman I know who has anything bad said about her. I have several friends in town, but I would not go to them, because they would be sure to put me back again. 173. The Commissioner.] How long had you known H ?—Since I went out to service. I was introduced by S H . 174. Mr. Russell.] S was an inmate here?— Yes. 175. Were you going to take other girls to this place?— No. A B and I were going. The other girls were going by themselves. 176. Did you have any money?— No. 177. How did you expect to get money? —A B was going to her mother for money. 178. Who is her mother? —Some woman in Christchurch, and she was going to give her money for both of us. A was going on there and I was going to H 's to get a situation at some shop in Papanui she was working at. 179. Is that a fair sample of the four pieces of bread and butter and jam you get [sample produced] ?—Yes, but it is not always spread like that, 180. But so far as the bread is concerned, that represents the amount you get?— Yes. 181. You mean to say there is more jam on this than is generally given? —Yes. 182. Do you find yourself hungry after eating that lot? —Sometimes I do, if I have been working all day. 183. On one occasion you applied to the Matron and you got toast at once?— Yes. 184. Is that your signature on this document [handed in]? —Yes. 185. Mr Salter.] Does the Matron attend at the girls' meals?—At times. 186. How often? —Sunday dinner-time and since Miss Mills has been away she has taken nearly every breakfast. 187. And other meals? —She may have taken them on special occasions, but not to my memory. F B—— examined on oath. 1. Mr. Salter.] How old are you? —Twenty years. 2. How long have you been in the Home?— Four and a half years. 3. How often have you been out to service since you came to the Home?— Once. 4. Where to?— The Rev. J. R. W , at Waikari. 5. How long were you there? —Six months. 6. How did you come to leave?—l ran away from there. 7. Why?— Because I objected to being in the country. 8. Who brought you back to the Home?— The Amberley constable. 9. Whilst you have been here you have done the same outside work amongst the trees as the other girls—sawing, cutting, splitting, and so forth?— Yes. 10. Do you object to that sort of work?— Yes, I do not like it. 11. You find it hard?— Sometimes it is hard. 12. Where you punished when you came back to the Home?—l was put into the cell. 13. How long were you there? —For a month. 14. Were you locked up every day?—No, not every day. 15. How long were you locked up before you were allowed into the detention-yard? —One day. 16. The rest of the time the door was unlocked and you could get into the detention-yard?— Yes. 17. Did you sleep in the cell at ail?— For a week I slept in the cell. 18. You had a mattress, I suppose?— Yes. 19. Where did you sleep after that? —Upstairs in a room by myself. 20. And you were brought down every morning to the cell? —Yes. 21. And kept there until what time? —Until about 7.45 at night. 22. I want to know particularly whether you were visited whilst in the cell except at mealtimes?—l was not visited except at meal-times, and other necessities. 23. Were the other necessities often? —No. 24. Do you think you would be in the cell for more than two hours at s. time without being visited ?—Yes. 25. You are sure of that?— Yes. 26. Were you strapped for this running away from your place?— Yes. 27. How many cuts did you get?— Twelve. 28. From whom?— The Matron. 29. Who was present?— Miss Mills 30. Are you satisfied with the food you get?— Not always. 31. Why are you dissatisfied?— Because we are forced to eat things we do not like. 32. What happens if food is put before you and you do not eat it? Do you see it again?—It is brought forward the next meal. 33. Is anything else given you until you have eaten that?— No. 34. Do you know if girls have ever been punished for not eating the food ?—They have been threatened, but I do not think they have been punished. 35. Some of the girls say that when you go out to work at the lupins you are not allowed water : have you had that experience ?—lf we do not take water over with us, we are not allowed to go back for it.

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36. May you always take water with you if you like? —Yes. 37. Is it correct that complaints are sometimes made that the girls converse to one another about things they should not converse about?— Yes. 38. Who makes the complaint?— Some of the staff do sometimes. 39. Have they complained to you about your conversation? —No. 40. Have you heard them complain about others?— No. I have heard the Matron complain. 41. Was tnere any necessity for the complaint?—l never heard it. 42. How are the girls, as a rule, treated by the members of the staff?—We do not get very nice things said to Matron about us. Some of the things we do are taken up wrongly. 43. Do you mean the staff complain to the Matron unfairly?— Yes. 44. Does the Matron act as though she believed what the staff say?— Yes. 45. In what way?—We are punished. 46. Without being asked for an explanation?— Sometimes. 47. Has the Matron ever boxed your ears? —Yes. 48. Can you tell me any particular occasion on which she did it?— Boxing Day, 1906. 49. What for? —I was trying to explain something, and I did not get a chance. Matron boxed my ears before I explained it. 50. What did you say to her for doing it?—l said she did it to commemorate the day. 51. What did she do then? —She sent me to bed. 52. Have you seen the Matron boxing other girls' ears? —Yes. 53. Within the last twelve months, have you seen her doing it?—No; I have only been in the Home six months of the last year. 54. Are you one of the girls who have to do scrubbing on the winter mornings upstairs?— Yes. 55. With bare feet?— Yes. 56. What sort of water do you use?— Cold water. 57. Could you get hot water if you liked?— Miss McPherson stood at the door, and would not allow us to turn the hot tap on. 58. When the Matron has any complaint to make, does she make it to the girls privately or before the other girls?— Mostly before the others. 59. When are these complaints generally made? —At prayer-time in the evening or at meals. 60. Since you came back from Waikari have you had any other chance to go to service?— No. 61. There are some small girls in the Home? —Yes. 62. Do they do the same work as the big ones? —Yes. 63. Have you any other complaint to make about your treatment?— Yes. 64. Now is your time to say in what way you consider you have been harshly or unjustly treated ?—I was strapped once for sitting on another girl's bed, and other girls have got right into the beds and have not been punished at all. 65. You think the Matron knew that the other girls had been doing this?— The staff knew it. 66. You know M M ?—Yes. 67. Can you tell us anything about her ?—One girl refused to work, and she was threatened for it. The Matron told her she would strap her if she did not work. She did not do the work, and she was strapped. M M two or three days afterwards refused to do the same, and the Matron treated her to afternoon tea. 68. You think that was unjust?— Yes. 69. Does the Matron speak of one girl's faults to another? —Yes. 70. Have you heard her? —Yes. 71. And you do not like that? —No. 72. Has she spoken of your faults to another girl?— Yes. 73. What does she say when the girls run away or speak of running away?— She says they do not go for any good. 74. Does she ever say where she would find them if they got away?— Sleeping in the parks or somewhere. 75. Sometimes I believe the friends of the girls provide cake for them ?—Yes. 76. Do they get that cake?— The girl it is for generally gets it. 77. When you came back from Waikari, what did the Matron say to you particularly?— She told me when I was twenty-one I would turn out a prostitute. 78. Are other things of the same sort said about girls?— Yes. 79. Often? —When they are going to run away, or doing anything that is objected to. 80. Is there any other matter you want to speak or complain about now?—[No answer.] 81. Mr. Russell.] What age were you when you came to the Home?— Fifteen. 82. Had you been living with a man for a month before you came here? —No. 83. Were you away with a man for a week? —No. 84. You were not away with a man at all?— No. 85. You were in the Auckland Home? —Yes. 86. Did you get out when there?-—Yes. 87. You absconded ?—Not from the Home. 88. From your situation? —Yes. 89. Who did you go with?—l went by myself. 90. How long were you away before you were caught by the police?—A week. 91. Where were you during the week?—At the Thames. I walked there. 92. Where from?— From Hamilton. 93. Who did you walk with?—By myself. 94. Where did you stay at the Thames? —Is it necessary to answer all these questions? 1 ; bought the inquiry was into the Home, not into my life before I came here.

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95. lam testing your credibility. Did you not live at the Thames with a man?—l did not. 96. Where did you live at the Thames? —I stayed at X 's boardinghouse. 97. When you were at the Rev. W 's you got on very well? —Yes. 98. He was very good to you?— Yes. 99. Were you teaching in the Sunday School? —Yes. 100. For how long?— All the time I was there. 101. And being taught music? —No. 102. Can you play the organ?— Yes. 103. Did you play in church?—l did not. 104. Were you in the choir?— Yes. 105. I think you were left at home one day with another girl?— Yes. 106. And you hooked it off from the house? —The day I went off the girl was not there. 107. Who did you go away with? —By myself. 108. Were you found at 2 o'clock that morning in a haystack with a man? —I was by myself when found. 109. Had you been sleeping there with a man?— No. 110. Had you been there with a man at all? —No. 111. If people say they found you there, and that a man was on the stack with you, that is absolutely untrue? —It is. 112. The police say you were found on the stack with a man: you are quite sure that is not true?- —Yes. 113. Were you speaking to a man that day?— Yes. 114. How far was this stack from the main road? —Just at the side of the main road. 115. What were you doing in the stack? —Sitting there waiting. 116. How far from the Rev. W 's home?— About a mile. 117. Why did you not go home to where they were treating you kindly?— Because I did not wish to go back. 118. What single reason was there to induce you to leave that home where apparently you were being treated kindly in every way?—l do not think I will answer any more of these questions. 119. The Commissioner.] It is not for you to say whether you will answer the questions or not. You have to tell us why you left a home that you describe as a comfortable home at which you were well treated : why did you leave that home?—[No answer]. 120. Mr. Russell.] I am not asking these questions for mere idle curiosity: Why did you not go to your home?—[No answer.] 121. You say you were in the cell for a month?— Yes. 122. You mean the cell and detention-yard?— Yes. 123. The cell opens on to the yard? —Yes. 124. Is it true that there are two or three windows looking into the detention-yard?— Yes. 125. So an} r one in these rooms can see exactly what is going on?— Yes. 126. I may take it you had the run of the cell and the yard? —Yes. 127. Was your bed the same sort as you slept in upstairs?— With the exception of the bedstead. 128. Quite comfortable?— Yes; but it was hard. 129. You knew you were put in the cell because of what the Matron thought of your misconduct at Waikari? —Yes. 130. If it was true you had been with a man on that stack you will admit you were properly punished?—l was punished exactly the same as other girls who absconded. 131. You agree that every girl is here to try and be reformed? —That is what they say we are here for. 132. Are you satisfied the Home and the people in it are trying to put you in a position so that when you go out into the world you will be decent women ?—Yes, they do try, and then they turn round and tell us we would do this and that and the other thing. 133. Is that not when you do something that is wrong?— No. 134. But if another girl tries to abscond, does not the Matron point out before you all the folly of what she has done, and the danger to herself ?—Not always. 135. Does not the Matron, before prayers in the evening, always hold a sort of chit-chat with you girls, and encourage you to tell her anything that is on your minds?— Yes, she tells us to tell her anything. 136. So that if you have a grievance it can be cleared up ?—She does not say it will be cleared up. 137. And many girls take advantage of that opportunity?— Yes. 138. Does she not on many occasions use that opportunity to give you girls a sort of moral lecture to try and help you along?— Yes. 139. You say you were punished unjustly for sitting on a girl's bed?— Yes. 140. Were you ever found in bed with a girl named N H ? —I was not in her bed; I was on it. 141. Were you partly in her bed?— No. 142. Were you undressed? —Yes, and rolled in a blanket. I sat on her bed with a blanket round me. It was a cold evening, and I was talking to her. 143. Was that against the rules?— Yes. 144. Why did you want to break the rules?—We were all talking that night. It was to be one of the girl's birthday,, and before we went to bed we said we would see who would be the first to wake up in the morning and wish her many happy returns of the day. When I waked up I sat talking to her.

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145. If one of the staff says she found you in bed with this N that is not true?—No, because the staff did not see me. A girl in the morning told the staff. 146. What is that girl's name?—J A . 147. Mr. Hunt.] During the last six months you have been comfortable here? —Yes. 148. You have no fault to find with anybody or anything?— No. 149. You know the Lady Visitors and Mr. Smail? —I know them through coming here. 150. You have never complained to them at any time?— No. G N examined on oath. 1. Mr. Salter.] How old are you?—l will be eighteen on the 17th April. 2. Have you been here long?— Two years on the Ist of last February. 3. Who sent you here?—My father. 4. Since you have been here have you joined with the other girls in working at tree-felling, cross-cutting, and so forth? —Yes. 5. Do you like that work? —No. 6. You find it hard?— Yes. 7. Where were you working last month?—lnside in the scullery. 8. You attempted to get away once?— Yes. 9. What punishment was meted out to you for that?—l was in the cell for a month, and had the punishment dress on. I was in solitary confinement for one whole day, and slept in the cell two nights. 10. How long did you have the punishment dress on? —Two months and a week. 11. Were you strapped?— No. 12. Do you remember that about six months ago some girls complained that they had not enough to eat?— Yes. 13. What did the Matron order for you? —We were overfed for a week. 14. They could not force you?—We were forced to eat an extra quantity. 15. Was it double the usual quantity?—lt was double what the other girls had. 16. What happened if you did not eat it?—We had it cold for our tea, and if we did not eat it then it was poured down our throats. 17. Do you mean some one held you to pour it down?—We were threatened with that. We ate it. 18. Have you ever seen the Matron box girls' ears?— Yes. 19. Often?— Yes. 20. Within the last two years? —Yes. 21. Has she ever done more than boxing?— Sometimes when standing near the wall a girl's head has been knocked against the wall. 22. When you were in the cell that day in solitary confinement, were you visited except at meal-times ?—No. 23. What happens when you are outside, and Miss Hunt is overseeing you?—lf we raise our backs she says, "Do not get tired, girls. It is not time to get tired until a quarter to 5." 24. She does not let you rest? —No. 25. What happens if she speaks to a girl more than once?— She is reported. 26. Then what happens?— You lose a mark. 27. Are your faults spoken of before other girls?— Sometimes. 28. At what time? —Prayer-time in the evening. 29. I suppose sometimes the Matron will speak to you privately? —Yes. 30. Have you any complaint about the way Miss Mills speaks to you at night?—lf we turn over in our beds at night Miss Mills calls out. 31. What does she call out? —She infers the girls are doing harm in their beds. 32. Have you any complaint generally to make about your treatment at the Home?— No. 33. Mr. Russell.] You have not many complaints at all apparently?— No. 34. You get on very well here? —Yes. 35. Have you been to service at all? —No. 36. You will be, I suppose, before very long?--I do not know. 37. All depends on how you get on. Do you want to get out?— Yes, I do. 38. The Commissioner.] Have you asked the Matron to let you out?— She passed it off in some way. I cannot remember what she said. 39. Did she give you any reason for not sending you out to service? —No. 40. Mr. Do you want to go back to Wellington?— Yes. 41. Why?— Because Ido not know what service is like. Ido not want to go to service. 42. You said just now you wanted to go to service? —I want to get out of here. 43. What do you expect to do?— There are other ways of earning a living besides being at domestic service. 44. Do you mean in a factory or in a shop. I suppose you do not mean improper ways?— No. 45. You mean proper ways?— Yes. 46. Well, give us an idea?—l could be a clerk. 47. Where would you get the money while you were being taught to be a shorthand-writer and typiste?—l have been in a commercial school. 48. How long ago?— Three months before I came here. 49. You say you have seen the Matron knock a girl's head against the wall: who was the girl?—E 0 ; L- . 50. What is her age?— The same age as I am.

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51. How long ago is that?—ln the old dining-room, when Miss Allen was on the kitchen staff about a year ago. 52. What had the girl been doing?— Giving impudence to Miss Allen. 53. Did you hear her giving impudence?— No. 54. You only know what somebody else told you? —I saw the Matron doing it. 55. Just describe what the Matron did?—E was standing against the wall, and the Matron ran up to her and boxed her ears, and her head went against the wall. 56. You are sure the Matron boxed her ears, and did not put her hand on her shoulder?— She boxed her ears. 57. Did she touch her on the ear or on the back of the head?— Part of the hand might have gone on the head; I do not know. 58. And the girl went up against the wall?— Yes. 59. How far was she standing from the wall?— She was standing against the wall, to be inspected. 60. Did the Matron hear her giving impudence?—l think Miss Allen told her E had been giving impudence. 61. Did you hear the Matron say anything to the girl?— The Matron said, " How dare you give impudence?" and told her she was not to give impudence. 62. What did the girl say?—l cannot remember her saying anything. 63. You say you were kept in the cell one day, and were only visited at meal-times?— Yes. 64. Had you no reason to go outside the cell the whole day? —No. 65. You did not want to leave the cell for any purpose whatever?— No. 66. Then you did not want any one to come to you?— No. 67. Mr. Hunt.] You did not complain to anybody about not liking wood-chopping? It is no good complaining. Ido not like outside work, but I have to do it. 68. Did you ever tell anybody you did not like it?—l have said to the staff and Matron I did not like outside work. 69 How long ago is it that you told the Matron you did not like it?—A month before last just before I was put in the scullery. 70. You are not chopping all the time you are out?— When we are working at chopping we are chopping all the time. rr 6 71. Fifteen girls go together, and you take it in turns, do you not?—l have been sawing the whole morning and chopping the whole morning. 72. Without a rest?— Yes. 73. Do you talk when doing it ?—Sometimes. Miss Hunt does not like us to talk, but with Miss Mills we are sometimes allowed to talk. 11 30 74 ' Wh6n d ° y ° U StaFt chopping? — With Miss Hunt we go out at 8.30 and we come in at 75. And you are chopping all the time without a rest?— Yes. 76. Have you complained to the Lady Visitors ?—No, we do not get the chance to 77. You have never had a chance to see the Lady Visitors?— No. 78. Have you ever asked to see one?— Never. 79. You are in good health?— Yes. the i-Yo'kS oI7JZr ° PP ° rtUnity ° f attra ° ting any ° ne ' S attenti - *»» yOU «in not *" ™ * "*<"* «" 82. Mr. Hunt.] The cell is opposite the office-window?— Yes. 83. And there is always somebody in the office?—l have seen the office with nobody in it. E S examined on oath 1. Mr. Salter.] How old are you?— Twenty on the 4th June. 2. How long have you been in the Home?— Seven years on the 12th June. 3. Have you ever been to service?— Yes. 4. Where?—-At Mrs. C 's, Fisher Street, Beckenham. 5. Why did you leave there?—l ran away. 6. Where did you go to when away?— The first time I went to Lyttelton, and the second time I went to Ashburton. J ' 7. You ran away twice?— Yes. a week ""* br ° Ught back to the Home after the first tim * 7°u ran away?—l was away 9. How long ago is this?— A.year and eight months. 10. What happened when you got back?—l was put in the cell. 11. For how long?— Three weeks. 12. Were you locked up in the cell for any time?— Two whole days !f' Sl h ° V r^l yOU dUr l ng th T uTi° Wh T °lf da y s? - N ohody except the staff and the Matron. 14. When did they come to you?— When I first came into the cell they took me to have a bath and hey put me to bed in the cell, and I stayed in bed that evening, and next day Matron came and 1 got the strap. J «•«*■»«>, 15. How many cuts?— Twelve. 16. With only your nightdress on?— Yes. 17. And you were left in the cell after the strapping?— Yes.

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18. How many hours were you there before any one visited you again?—l was the whole day. Only the staff came in with my food. 19. You are quite clear about that?— Yes. 20. How long was it before you ran away the second time? —A year. 21. Where did you go to that time?—To Timaru. 22. How long were you in Timaru?—Three weeks and a half. 23. Who brought you back? —The police. 24. What were you doing whilst in Timaru? —I was a waitress at the C Hotel for a week, and then I stayed with the P s. 25. Who were the P s?—People in Timaru I got to know. 26. Respectable people?— Yes. 27. Who found you out?— The police came and asked me on Friday night, and I told them, and on Tuesday morning they came and brought me home. 28. And the same thing happened the second time : you were strapped again?— Yes. '" 29. How many cuts did you get?— Twelve. .. 30. And you were locked up by yourself, for how long?—I was in the cell for two days, the same as before, and the cell door was open after two days. 31. And you were visited only at meal-times during these two days?— Yes. 32. What state of health were you in at this time?—l was ill. 33. What was the matter with you? Did the doctor see you? —She did not see me until the week following. 34. What did she do then ?—She sent me to the Hospital. 35. So you were ill enough to go to the Hospital?— Yes. 36. You were ill when you came back from Timaru ? J —Yes. 37. Did you tell the Matron?—l told Miss Mills. 38. They gave you some food when you came back? —Dry bread. 39. Were you able to eat it?—No; I ate one piece. I could not eat it the first night, and I did not eat it until before tea the next evening. 40. The same bread as was brought to you the day before?— Yes. Miss Mills brought in two more pieces, and when she found I had not eaten the two pieces on the plate she took the others away, and told me I was sulking, and if I did not eat it I would get worse punishment. I told her I had a sore throat, and was not well, and could not eat it, and that is what she said to me. 41. You really were too ill to eat it?— Yes, I had a sore throat, and I did not feel well otherwise. 42. Did the Matron come near you at all? —Not until 8 o'clock. 4,3. What took place when she came to see you?—l still had a piece of dry bread on my plate, and she ashed Miss Mills how much I had eaten, and Miss Mills said I had eaten two pieces, and I still had one piece on my plate. 44. The Matron said I must eat it, so I went to the door-step in my nightgown, and ate that piece and drank a cup of milk. 45. Did Miss Mills say anything to you whilst you were trying to eat it? —No. The Matron just said it was not as good as cake, but that I would have to eat it. ..: 46. Did you get the strap again?—l got strapped just after that. 47. Do you know if at this time the Matron knew you were unwell?—l do not know whether Miss Mills had told her or not 48. Did you get a very severe beating that time?—l felt it for three days afterwards. 49. I believe some time after this you saw Dr. Alice Moorhouse? —Yes; on the Friday afternoon. 50. What happened after she saw you? —She ordered me to the Hospital, and I went on Saturday. 51. How long were you in the Hospital?—A fortnight. It is a month since I came back. 52. I see you are wearing flannel round your throat: is it still sore?— Yes. 53. Have you had to do the same hard outdoor work as the other girls?-—Not since I came home. 54. But before you went away?— Yes. 55. Did you find the work hard?— Sometimes I did—carrying logs and cross-cutting. 56. And stubbing up roots?— Yes. 57. Have you any complaints to make about your treatment in other ways than those you have mentioned ?—Just about leaving the table without food. 58. What was that for?— For talking. We get no food, and have to go to work without it, 59. You are not allowed to finish the meal, and it is not sent outside to you to finish?—lt is not sent out. 60. So if you talk at table, and are sent out of the room before you have finished your meal, you have to go without until when? —Tea-time. 61. Do you know anything about a room called the reception-room?— Yes. 62. Have you ever been in it?—l was taken up once after I ran away—just before I was strapped. 63. What for?—To be examined. ""84. By whom?-—The Matron. 65. Were you examined with any instrument?— Yes. 66. Do you happen to know what the instrument is called?— Yes; a syringe. 67. Anything else?— No. 68. Mr. Russell.] You have never seen or talked to Mr. Salter before?— No. 69. To whom have you made this statement that he has written there? —Mr. Fountain.

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70. How did you come across him?—At the Hospital. 71. Did you know him before?— No. ' ~ 72. You had never been to his rooms to have your teeth attended to?— No. 73. What did he come to you at the Hospital about?— About this punishment. 74. What were the words he used to you? Did he tell you who he was?— Yes. That was on Monday. I had seen him with books at the Hospital on Sunday. 75. How did he know you were aTe Oranga girl? —I do not know. 76. From his conversation you found he did know?— Yes. He asked me about my punishment, and I told him. 77. When he came to you first, what did Mr. Fountain say? —He asked me about a letter he showed me. 78. Did you know the writer of the_letters? —No. Mr. Fountain showed me the writing, and I thought it was Miss Howden's. 79. Have you any doubt about it? —Yes, I have now. 80. I will read the letters, " Mr. Fountain, —There is lying in Christchurch Hospital, in a dangerous state, a girl named E S . She ran away from Te Oranga, was brought back in a state of starvation a few days ago, was placed in a cell and given bread and water, was strapped and received twelve cuts, was in a state of collapse, and was ordered by Doctor into a proper bed in the Home, then removed to Hospital, where she now lies " : Is that one? —Yes. 81. Is this the other : " Mrs. Branting will try to prevent any one speaking to the girl in the Hospital, and will get her back into the Home as quickly as possible, then all chance of proving the statements sent to you will be hopeless. Miss Mills, an attendant, witnessed the strapping. Trusting in your confidence not to be the means of a bad time " ?—Yes. 82. These letters exactly describe what took place in this institution? —Yes. 83. So that whoever wrote them must have been intimately acquainted with everything that was going on?— Yes. 84. And Mr. Fountain came, and wanted to be the good Samaritan?— Yes. 85. And you told him? —Yes, just as I have said it here. 86. Did he tell you there was any commotion in the papers?—No; he asked me if I had seen about the hair-cutting in the papers, and I said Yes. 87. Anything else? —No. 88. When did you give this statement to Mr. Fountain?— The same day that he saw me. 89. Did he ever bring any one to you?—He brought Mr. Laurenson and Mr. Ell, but I do not know whether Mr. Fountain brought them. 90. Did they tell you they had come to see you?— Yes. 91. Did Miss Howden ever come to see you?— No. 92. Did you see her at all?— Only when I was back at the Home. 93. Did any one else visit you at the Hospital?— No. 94. While you were away from the Home absconding, did you ever see Miss Howden? —No. 95. You have not seen Miss Howden since she left the Home?— No. The last time I saw her was on. the Saturday night before I left for the Hospital. 96. Before you left this Home, did you have any conversation with Miss Howden? —No. 97. Had you nothing to do with her at all? —Yes. 98. What was it? —She came and asked me to do a little sewing for her—to turn a coat. She asked me why I was crying, and, when I did not reply, said, " Leave it if you do not like to say anything about it." 99. You knew you were going to be called at this inquiry? —I thought I was, but I did not know for certain. 100. You have not heard from Mr. Fountain since you gave him that statement? —No. 101. What made you think you would be called?—l saw the other girls going out, and I knew I had given a statement to Mr. Fountain. 102. When away you had your teeth repaired?— Yes. 103. It was by some dentist at Ashburton ?—Yes. 1.04. What did the dental work cost?—£l 10s. 105. Did you have that money on you?— No. 106. Who paid it?—l had that given me by a person. 107. Who by?— Mr. L . 108. Were you with him in Timaru?—No. 109. At Ashburton ?—Yes. 110. How long did you live with him while you were away?—l did not live with him. 111. Were you with him at all? —Yes. 112. Staying in the same house? —Yes. 113. Which house was that? —At Ps, at Hinds. 114. How long did you stay at P 's?—A week. 115. Under what name did you stay with L ?—M X . 116. Did L stay there the whole week?—No, he was away some time. 117. And always came back at night? —No; he was away two nights. 118. Out of how long?—He stayed there for four days. 119. How much more money did he give you besides the £1 10s. ?—He helped me to get some clothes. 120. Who paid your board and lodging at P 's?—He did. 121. Where did you say good-by to him?—l left Hinds and went to Timaru. 122. Where did L —— go?—I do not know. 123. When you left Mrs. C 's the first time, you were in Lyttelton ?—Yes.

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124. Is it true you were running on the hills with men-of-war's men?— No. 125. Did you tell anybody it was true? —I told the Matron when I came back I was speaking to one of the men on the boats, and she told me they said I was running about the hills. 126. Was he going to marry you when he came back?—He asked me to marry him, and I said " No." 127. You did not know his surname : was he called Bill or Jim? —Jack. 128. How long were you on the hills with him? —I was not on the hills with him. 129. How long were you away with him? —I was only with him two nights. I just went out for a walk with him. 130. Where were you living then? —I was staying with my aunt. 131. Were you walking on the hills of an evening?—No; I went for a walk round the breakwater. 132. And stayed down for half an hour or so?— Yes. 133. You did not want to see your mother much?—l did not go to her when I ran away. 134. Did L want to marry you?— Yes. 135. And you refused to marry him? —Yes. 136. When you were brought back you were treated by the Matron for a week or two?— No. 137. For how long?— She just looked at me that night. 138. And it was all right?— Yes. 139. What are your real complaints against the Home: are you satisfied they are doing the best for you to try and put you into the world a moral woman?— Yes. 140. And are they succeeding, in your opinion?—l do not know. They do not seem to talk about it as though they are. 141. What do you think yourself? You were glad to come back here? —I did not want to come back. 142. You would rather have gone on with L ?—No. 143. You took all this money from this man : What would you have earned had you been at service? —12s. 6d. or 15s. 144. Tell me shortly what are your complaints?—l do not like being here, for the things that are thrown up to us and the way the staff go on at us sometimes. 145. Give us an instance? —Miss Mills blames us for things we do not do, and if you turn round and say it is not true she just takes no notice of you and lets you go on. 146. You do not like wood-chopping?— No. 147. What would you rather do? —Sewing. 148. Have you ever asked the Matron to give you sewing, and relieve you of the outside work? —No. 149. Why not?— Because we have to do as we are told. 150. You know the Matron very well?— Yes. 151. Is she not a kind woman?— Yes. 152. And willing to do all she can for you? —Yes. 153. She never spares herself to try and help the girls along so far as you can see? —No. 154. Why do you not go to her and say, " Matron, I wish you would give me some other job " ? Does it make you tired?— Yes. 155. Mr. Hunt.] The Matron made a pack of barilla soap, and put it on your head?— Yes, a week after I came back. 156. The Matron was very kind to you?— She did not come before that. I told Miss Mills on Sunday that I had pains in the head, and Matron put a pack on my head. 157. And before you went to the Hospital you were sleeping in the dormitory? —The night before I went the doctor ordered me into the dormitory. 158. And Miss Dean sat up with you all night?— Yes. 159. You have only been punished for running away from the situations found for you?—■ Yes. 160. Each time a situation was found for you you ran away? —Yes, for the nasty things said about me. 161. You have never tried to run away from the Home? —No. 162. You have never been punished while here?— Yes. 163. What have you been punished for here?—l have had the strap before. 164. How long ago? —I cannot be exact. 165. Before you went to service? —Yes. 166. You have not made any complaint to the visiting ladies at all? —No. 167. You have had plenty of opportunities to talk to these ladies?— No. 168. You have seen Mr. Smail: did you ever tell him you did not like outside work? Have you seen Mrs. Kaye?—Yes. 169. Have you ever complained in any way to her? —No. 170. Mr. Russell.] Have you ever told Mr. Fountain of the names of other girls who could give evidence against the Home? —No. I told him there were girls in the Home who would complain just as I did. 171. But you did not give names?— No.

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Thursday, sth March, 1908. A Z M examined on oath. 1. Mr. Salter.] You are at present in service with Mrs. McX ?—Yes. 2. How long were you in the Home?—A little over two years, and at odd times'. 3. Where did you come from to the Home?— The Convent in Wellington. 4. How long were you in the Home before you went out to service?-—A little over two years. 5. Have you been back at all since you went to service? —Yes. 6. How often?—l went to Mrs. C 's first, and only stayed with her six weeks, and then returned to the Home. I then went to Miss S 's, and stayed with her from the 24th July until nearly the end of November, 1906. 7. Your work here was the same as that of the other girls?— Yes, cutting down trees, and cross-cutting, hauling, and digging up the stumps. 8. And amongst the lupins?— No. 9. Whilst you were here, supposing a girl had her breakfast placed before her and did not eat it, what happened I —She got it for the next meal, and if they did not eat it then they were generally smacked. 10. The Commissioner.] What do you mean by smacked?— Boxed over the ears or hit over the shoulders. 11. By whom?—By the Matron. 12. Mr. Salter.] Supposing a girl spoke to another one at meals? —She would be sent out without finishing her meal, and if it was before the meal started she would generally be sent out without it, but I have known a girl to be sent from two meals running for speaking at the next meal. 13. Do you mean to say a girl did not get any food at all? —Yes, if she spoke before the meal began. 14. And she had to wait until the next meal for something to eat? —Yes. 15. Has that happened to you at all? —It happened in the middle of my meal. 16. Was the Matron at meals with you here?— She took meals on Sunday—at dinner-hour— unless she was ill, or had taken the girls'to church. 17. Who was present at meals?— Each attendant had a meal to take a day. 18. Did you ever complain to the Matron about the attendants sending you out without a meal?— Miss Mills sent me out unjustly, and I told the Matron, and she said I could take that for some time when I deserved it. 19. Have you ever been with Miss Hunt?— Yes, I was under Miss Hunt within the last three months. I was back from Miss S 's at the end of November, and then I went up country, and I did not like it, and I came down again and stayed in the Home for a while, and I went to Mrs. McX on the 28th December last. 20. How did you find Miss Hunt treat you?—l felt Miss Hunt hard with the work. She made the girls work very hard. 21. Did she not let you rest?— She did not like to see us stand up, even when dragging great trunks of trees. 22. Was it the Matron's practice to tell you of your faults at all?— She told them in public generally, and very seldom in private, if ever, she did. ' 23. Sometimes privately?— Very seldom, if ever she did. 24. At what time?— Prayer-time at night. 25. Have you ever been strapped?— Yes; but more than two years ago. 26. You said the Matron had boxed your ears?— Yes; over two years ago. 27. Have you seen her boxing other girls' ears within the last two years?— Yes; in December, when I was back, I saw her box a girl's ears, and shove her down the passage. 28. What is the girl's name?—D D . She is a little girl. 29. When girls run away, what happens?—lf they are out at service they generally forfeit all the money they have saved, and if they run away whilst in the Home they are strapped over the bed. 30. Does the Matron ever make any remarks to you whilst the girls are away?— Yes, she tells us what they have done while they are away. 31. What sort of remarks does she .make about them?— She tells us if they have done any evil, and if they have been in any place of ill-fame. 32. Have you or other girls you know of ever been charged with offences you were not guilty of?— Yes. 33. Just tell us some?—lf we turn over in bed at night we were charged with immoral actions. 34. And if you deny, what happens then ?—The Matron generally sided with the staff, and told us again we could take that blame for something we had done and had not been charged with. 35. Have you been charged with these offences?— Yes. 36. I understand there are certain utensils in the kitchen the girls object to?— Yes; bedroom articles. 37. What are they used for? —For holding jam and sugar and milk and butter-milk. 38. The Commissioner.] You mean chambers?— Yes. 39. Mr. Salter.] Are there many of them?—-There used to be a good many when I was there-— perhaps thirty. 40. Did you see them when you were here last December ?—Yes. 41. Do you know whether the girls ever objected to them ?—lf they objected to them they were told they never had better in their own homes. 42. The Commissioner.] Who told them this?— The Matron.

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43. Did you ever object yourself, or hear any other girl in. your presence object?— Yes. 44. And that was the Matron's reply?— Yes. 45. Mr. Salter.] Have you ever been in the cell? —Yes; but more than two years ago. 46. Are the girls ever allowed to get access to the daily papers? Do they ever know what is going on in the world except what is told them? —No, they never see a paper hardly. 47. The Commissioner.] What do you mean by "hardly"?— They see papers on the walls, and things like that. They are never given them to read, and if they are found reading the paper they are reported. 48. Mr. Salter.] Were you ever allowed to see your friends at proper times? —No. My people were coming to see me, but the Matron stopped them, and said I never behaved myself. 49. What reason did the Matron give you for not allowing them to see you?—My sister told m« she was coining down to see me, and the Matron told her I had misbehaved, and would not allow her to see me if she came down. 50. Had you been misbehaving? —I did not consider I had. 51. How often do you write to your friends? —Once every three months. 52. Are you told anything about the regulations?— They say it is the regulations, but we never see them. 53. You do not know what the regulations are?— No. 54. You spoke just now about D D : have you seen her punished?— Yes. I have seen her sent to bed for every play-night in the week. 55. What for?— Because she was slow over her work. 56. And does D have to do the same sort of work as all the other girls?— Yes. 57. Outside?— Yes; dragging trees and everything. 58. When you were away from time to time, did you write to the Matron?—l did about three times. 59. Do you know A C ?—Yes. 60. Did you ever hear her make any complaint to any one in the Home? —That is beyond the two years. 61. Mr. Russell.] You are over twenty-one?— No. 62. You are sfill under the surveillance of the Home?— Yes. 63. The Commissioner.] How old are you? —Twenty-one in June. . 64. Mr. Russell.] Who did you see to inform Mr. Salter that you were prepared to give evidence?—l went to Mr. Fountain's office. 65. Have you seen Miss Howden at all?—I saw her on one occasion. 66. When?— About a fortnight or so ago. 67. Did she tell you you would be wanted to give evidence ?—She did not speak to me of evidence. 68. AVhere did you see her?—l met her in the Square one day. 69. Of course, you had seen the papers with all this hubbub in?— Yes. 70. Did she talk about it with you?— No. 71. How did you come to go to Mr. Fountain? —Through A G . She told me if I had any complaint to make to go to Mr. Fountain. 72. And you had complaints to make?— Yes, I had. 73. Have you been good friends with the Matron all through?— The Matron never liked me, and never treated me with justice. 74. Give me an instance? —For instance, she allowed other girls, when they came to the Home for their holidays, to go into town, but when I asked her she never allowed me. 75. Did she give any reason?— She said it was against the rules of the Department. 76. Did you conclude from that she treated you unjustly—if the Department made the rules? .-. —If she let one girl go, why not me? 77. Perhaps the rules did not apply to her : she may have been living here?—l was living here just as she was. 78. In what other way has the Matron treated you unjustly? —When we were here she did not allow us to go to church. 79. Where is that church?— Manchester Street. 80. Did she give any reason? —No; she said the other girls did not behave themselves. 81. Who could you have gone with to church? —I could have gone with another Catholic girl. 82. And she did not care that you should go to church?— Yes. 83. Can you give us any other reason to show you had a valid complaint against the Matron? —The Matron always had cold feelings for me. She never spoke to me like she spoke to the others, and if I had a fault she always called it out. And when I came home from service she said nothing about me, and when I went to the country she told the girls everything. 84. How do you know? —They told me so. 85. Admitting that, what else is there against the Matron? —Nothing else. 86. You knew you were here to try and be reformed?— Yes; but we could not be reformed if we got our faults thrown up at us. 87. Why?— Because you are discouraged. 88. When here, did she not treat you with all the kindness that a woman could?—No, she did not. , 89. Did she not try her best to help you on?—No, she did not. 90. Not in any way?— No. 91. She let you go any way?— Yes. 92. Did not care whether you got up or down?—lf I had a fault she was on to me. 93. Did she get you a place when you wanted it? —Yes; but I think I should have been out before I was.

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94. You were the girl who told the Matron about H M behaving badly in the town ?— Yes. 95. Is this your letter signed " Z " [read yesterday]?— Yes. 96. Is this also your letter: " Dear Matron, —Ida wanted something to do, so she addressed my letter. I am so lonely here, but the children are so good that it is a pleasure to be with them. The baby never gives any trouble. You promised to send me my stationery, and it never came. It is now 8.30 p.m., and lam tired. I done my stove last night, so I have nothing to do to-night. As it ft very wet to-night baby has been asleep since 5 p.m. The work is a little hard at present, We have two visitors staying here, and that makes a good difference, and one of them is from England. lam going to get a new black dress made next week, and Mrs. C is going to pay for the making. I have to do my hair in pads, and I simply hate it. It is such a job. I have not worn my cap or collars yet, and I hope I never will. I will try and do my best to help Mrs. C . She is very kind to me. Lance is here reading. He wants to post this to-night. The post-box is just a little way from the gate, but lam frightened. Ido not know what it will be like in winter; it is so dark now. I feel like as if I was standing on the top of Mount Egmont living here. I have been up early this morning, and have to get up early to-morrow. So with best love to E , M , and all the other girls. Accept my best love, and give Miss Johnson and Miss Mcintosh and all the staff " ?—Yes. 97. Who are these crosses [kisses] for?— For the girls. 98. Did you mean them only for the girls? —Yes. 99. You are quite sure?— Yes. 100. You would not send anything of the kind to the Matron? —No, I would not. 101. Why would you not send any kisses to the Matron? —Because she has not been fair to me. I kept them for the other girls. 102. But you say " three for J , three for E , and six for yourself and not for Susan " ?—I thought they were all for the girls. 103. Is this also your letter : " Dear Matron, —Mrs. N gave me the letters you sent lastevening, and lam not a bit homesick, as you call it. I simply hate the country, and as long as I live I never wish to return to it. Well, really such a place you can hardly tell what day of the week it is. I would far rather come and stay in the second building until lam twenty-one sooner than stay, in this show for a month. I suppose these are the kind of places that causes girls to work at factories. You said I was making myself ridiculous. Well I'm not. It is just what I expect from Mrs. N . I don't suppose I will ever get another place like Miss S 's, or that I will ever be treated as she treated me. But never mind, I have only five months to do, and then I can pick and choose my own places. I know you won't be sorry, and I won't either :it will be less trouble for you and great happiness for me. I hate you and you hate me, and two hates never make a love. I will conclude, hoping to leave these backblocks soon. —Yours ungratefully, Z—M "?—Yes. 104. You know a girl named F B ?—Yes. . . .105 Was she at Waikari ?—Yes. 106. You were told by the Matron not to write to her?—No, I was not. 107. You did write to her as a matter of fact?— Yes. 108. You signed yourself "Mack"?— Yes. 109. Is this your letter: "My Own Dear Cherry Ripe,—l hope you received the parcel I posted on Saturday all right. I don't suppose you were sorry to get to work again. I was not, I can tell you. I think I might get some holidays in September, but I hope not, as I simply dread the thought of being taken prisoner again. I really never wish to enter the door- of Te Oranga again, but I suppose I will have to, much to my sorrow. I keep away from there as much as I possibly can. There is no one there I care for much now, but I feel sorry for the poor girls. I took myself up there yesterday, growled at every one I came across (except the girls), and then I asked Matron if I could go to the Theatre Royal. She said she would see, but, Cherry, we know what that means, don't we? Elizabeth was telling me about the food. I really think it is a sin to starve those poor beggars. I saw M N yesterday in a four-wheeler carriage with her young man, and a nice young groom driving them. I think she has a first-class time. "Well, dear old Cherry, you must write and tell me all the advents of your past holidays. I can guess how you enjoyed them. The pad was Is. and the net 4d. Don't forget to tell me if you want anything else " —Yes. 110. Is this other letter dated 24th June, 1907, and addressed to " My Dear Cherry Ripe " also in your writing?— Yes. 111. You tell us that with the exception of these three or four small complaints you had nothing against the Matron, and yet you wrote saying you hate her: How do you account for that? —Yes, she did not treat me with justice. 112. And you think that justifies you in writing a letter of that kind after living here three years?— Yes. D D examined on oath. 1. Mr. Salter.] How old are you?— Thirteen years. 2. How long have you been in this Home? —One year in May. 3. Do you have to do work outside with the other girls? —Yes. 4. Do you ever use the cross-cut saw?— Yes. 5. You at one end and some one else at the other?— Yes. .6. What else do you do outside? —Water'and weed the garden, and plant. 7. Have you anything else to do in connection with the trees? —No. 8. Have you ever been in the cell? —No.

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[P— D ——

9. Have you ever had your ears boxed?— Yes. 10. By whom?— The Matron. 11. Who took you to the Matron to be punished? —Miss Dean. 12. Was Miss Dean present when the Matron boxed your ears? —Yes. 13. Did she box them severely or otherwise? —Otherwise. 14. The Commissioner.] Did she box them hard?— Not very hard. 15. Mr. Salter.] Has the Matron boxed your ears more than.once? —Only once. 16. How long ago was that?— Three or four months ago. 17. Have you been punished in any other way?— Yes, I have been sent to bed as a. punishment. 1.8. I suppose you get plenty of food?— Yes. L R (C C ) examined on oath. 1. Mr. Salter.] What is your name?—L R . 2. Mr. Russell.] Where did you get the name of " R ": C C is your name? — R is my foster-mother's name. 3. The Commissioner.] You are adopted? —No. My foster-mother did not like my other name, so she gave me that. 4. Your real name is L C C ? —Yes. 5. Mr. Salter.] You are at present in service? —Yes. 6. How long were you in this Home?— Nearly eight years. 7. How long is it since you left to go to service? —The 6th of last November. 8. Were you ever punished in this Home? —Yes, several times. 9. By whom?— The Matron. 10. Always by the Matron ?—And the staff used to put me in the cell. I have not had the strap for several years. 11. Have you been in the cell during the last two years?— Yes, in last June. 12. What for?— When wood-chopping I gave Miss Dean some impudence, and she brought me before Matron. Matron wished me to apologise, and I would not, and I was put in the cell from about 2.30 until 4.45, and I had dry bread for my tea. 13. Have you ever had your ears boxed? —Not for some years. 14. Have you seen other girls' ears boxed within the last two years?— Yes, about last December. 15. Who did it? —Matron boxed X W L 's ears. 16. Have you ever had your faults spoken of at meal-times or at prayer-time?— No. 17. You are in service with Mrs. A ?—Yes. 18. Has Matron ever asked you any questions with regard to what was going on at Mrs. A 's?—She asked me when Mrs. A 's baby was getting born where Mr. A would sleep, because there were only four rooms in the house. 19. What did you say?—l said I did not know where he would sleep. Then the Matron told me to keep my bedroom-door locked, in case Mr. A should come and sleep with me. 20. Have you any complaint at all to make about what happened to you at the Home within the last two years?— No. 21. Mr. Russell.] Do you complain that you were punished?— Yes. 22. I suppose you deserved it?— Yes, I did. 23. Mr. Hunt.] You are comfortable now in service?— Yes. 24. You know Miss Howden ? —Yes. 25. She has taken you about: took you to afternoon tea the other day?— Yes. 26. And told you what to say here?— No. 27. What did she talk to you about?—l told her about getting a letter from my sister. 28. She came to you, I suppose, and asked you to go out?—l met her in town. 29. Did you ever go to see her?—l went the other day, but she was out. 30. Did she tell you to come and see her? —No; I went on my own account. 31. She asked you to say what you could about this place?—No; she never mentioned the name " Home " to me. M H examined on oath. 1. Mr. Salter.] How old are you?— Seventeen in April. I have been in the Home two years. 2. What work do you do? —I go out chopping and sawing wood. 3. Have you ever been punishedl^—Yes, for running away. I got as far as the lupin paddock. 4. How were you punished for that? —I got the punishment dress on and got the strap. 5. Were you put in the cell? —No. 6. How many cuts did you get with the strap?— Six. 7. How long did you wear the runaway dress?— For two months. 8. Is that the only time you have been punished?—l have been put in the cell as a punishment. 9. How long were you in the cell? —Sometimes for a day, and three hours and over on other days. 10. And locked up?— Yes. 11. And during the time you were locked up in the cell did any one visit you?;— Yes, Matron came in twice. 12. During how many hours? —She came in once when I was there for four hours. 13. Have you ever slept in the cell?-—No. 14. Have you ever had your ears boxed?— No. 15. What complaint have you, if any, to make against the management here?—l am kept in here, and not allowed to go out to service, just for my temper. That is the only complaint they have against me.

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M H

16. Then, on the whole, are you treated as you think you should be?— Yes; but I think the staff could be more civil to us. 17. Does that apply to the Matron as well as the other members of the staff?— The Matron is civil to us. It is the staff. 18. How do they treat you?—lf we tell the staff wj* have not done anything they punish us for impudence, when it is not meant as impudence at all. 19. How do they punish you?— Put us in the cell. 20. Without speaking to the Matron?—l do not know if they always speak to the Matron about it. 21. Are you speaking of yourself? —Yes. 22. Do you mean they took you straight from where this ruction took place?— Sometimes they take us to the Matron, but not always. Sometimes they take us straight to the cell, and lock us up. 23. And how long have they kept you there? —It all depends. Sometimes three or four hours. 24. That is your main grievance?— Yes. 25. Mr. Russell.] That is your only grievance?— Yes. 26. When was the last time the staff put you in the cell in that way?— Last Tuesday week. I was taken to the Matron first. It happened about 10.30. 27. What had you been doing?—l spoke to the staff a bit impudently. I was taken to the Matron for being impudent,'and the Matron said if I gave any more trouble I should go to the, cell. I was taken down to the laundry again, and went on with what I had been told to do, and I scorched an apron a bit and put it on the line. Miss Dean asked me where it was, and I said "On the line." She asked me what I did to it, and I said, " Scorched it," and she said, " Come up to the cell with me." 28. Were you in a temper then?—No; but I was at the time I was taken to the Matron. 29. How long were you in the cell that time?— Four hours and a half. 30. Did you spoil the apron?—No; it came all right, 31. Have you'scorched any more since? —No. 32. It made you careful?— No. I had an iron that was too hot, and the apron was a bit hard to do, and it just stuck to it. , 33. You get on with the Matron very well?— Yes, I like the Matron. 34. She does what she-can for you?— Yes. 35. Mr. Hunt.] You sulk a bit?— Yes. 36. And will not speak for a long time?— Yes. 37. But you have never been punished unless you deserved it?—l was punished last Tuesday week when I did not deserve it. 38. You burnt the apron up?—No ; I scorched it a bit. 39. Over the fire?— No. 40. You were not careful?—l was not careful, but it was an accident. 41. Are all the rest of the attendants kind to you?— Yes. A C examined on oath. 1. Mr. Salter.] How old are you?— Twenty. 2. How long have you been here?— Four years in August. 3. Like the rest of the girls, you do the usual outside work?— Yes. 4. Have you been punished at all here? —Yes. 5. What for?—lmpudence; that is all. 6. Have you ever been in the cell? —Yes. 7. How long have you been locked up in the cell? —Three hours and over. 8. Were you visited during that time by anybody? —Yes. 9. »Have you ever had your ears boxed at all?— Yes. 10. By whom?— The Matron. 11. How long since?—l cannot say exactly. It is since two years ago. 12. Have you seen other girls receive similar punishment?— Yes. 13. Have you ever complained to any official about anything in connection with the Home?— I have to Mr. Pope. 14. Have you any particular grievance against the treatment you receive here? —No, I have not. 15. Mr. Hunt.] You like doing outside work at the trees and lupins? —Yes. Ada Harrison examined on oath. 1. Mr. Salter.] You are a certificated teacher?— Yes; El. 2. How long have you been here?— Four years. 3. The position you hold on the staff is that of day-teacher? —Yes. 1 come next to the Matron. I have never had any other intimation from the Department, 4. Have you ever taken charge during the Matron's absence?— Yes. 5. Whilst you have been in charge, have you ever allowed the girls to be punished without reference to you ?—My training as a teacher would make me think it wrong to allow any subordinate teacher to punish. 6. And you do not allow it?— No. 7. How often have you been in charge?— Twice. 8. For how long at a time? —For a month and a month and a few days,

5—H. 21,

H.—2i,

A. HAEEISON.

9. Is the relationship between you and the Matron strained or otherwise? —Not strained, but the Matron has no sympathy with my school-work. 10. How does she show she has no interest in your work? —The girls are kept away for any excuse — for housework, or mending, or taking honey, or anything of that sort. The girls only have two hours' school a day, and I think that rather short in any case. 11. No girl has more than two hours a day in school? —No. 12. And you say they are kept away from school for small matters? —Yes. 13. The Commissioner.] The Matron surely does not fix the hours of school?— No. 14. Mr. Salter.] You mean some of the girls do not get even the two hours? —No; and consequently I do not get a good report at the end of the year. 15. Do you find these girls very hard to manage in school?— No. 16. Not any harder than ordinary school-girls?—No; they are very good. At first one or two may be very troublesome, but then you expect that. There are two girls now at the morningschool I have to watch all the time, or they would be up to tricks, but otherwise they are very good. 17. Have you any means of judging how the Matron gets on with the other members of the staff? —I am not in residence now. I have been out for two years and seven months, and Ido not know anything about the indoor work. 18. Has any member of the staff complained to you about anything in connection with the Home that would show what the relationship is ?—Miss Mills complained about Miss Hunt getting what she thought should have been her position. She thought, as the senior staff, she should have got the position of Sub-matron. Miss Mills wanted me to write a letter to the Department for her to copy, and I advised her to speak, to Mr. Pope, which I think she did. 19. You know there was some correspondence in the papers about this Home?— Yes. 20. Did you hear of any one connected with the Home being blamed for bringing that about?— Matron said she thought it was Miss Howden. 21. Did she tell you that?— Yes. 22. Was the Rev. Mr. Fendall's name mentioned in any way?— Matron said she thought Miss Howden had given the information to Mr. Fendall. Ido not remember the exact words. 23. But she blamed Miss Howden for it? —Yes; I understood that. 24. Did she say anything about Miss Howden wanting her position as Matron?— Yes. Matron was telling me what Miss Howden had beefl accused of. It was a private conversation, and she said Miss Howden had said her name would be " Mrs. Walker." I cannot tell you the exact words, but it was something about " She must be wanting my position," or " Does she want my position ?" I said it was nonsense to think such a thing, or something to that effect. 25. I suppose there is nothing else you want to say?—No; I know nothing about the working of the Home. 26. Mr. Russell.] How is it this private conversation you had with the Matron has got back to Mr. Salter?—l spoke to Miss Howden about it. 27. Have you ever seen Mr. Salter before?—He brought me my subpoena. 28. How did Mr. Salter get the gist of this private conversation you had with the Matron? — I spoke to Miss Howden about it. I had told the Matron 1 did not believe a word about Miss Howden, and I asked Miss Howden if she had said these things. 29. We may fairly assume that Miss Howden has seen Mr. Salter? —Yes. 30. You and the Matron are perfectly good friends? —Yes. 31. With regard to the girls' two hours school being curtailed, of course it is just as necessary the girls should learn to work as learn lessons?—ln a fair proportion, yes. 32. Evidently the Department only think two hours necessary?— Yes. 33. If the girls do not do their work, must not the Matron, as a matter of discipline, see that they do their work?—lt has nothing to do with me. My school work interests me and nothing else. 34. Mr. Hunt.] You are quite satisfied with your position here?— Yes. 35. And you take girls from eleven years of age up to twenty?— Yes. 36. And I suppose some of them give you some trouble? —All schoolgirls do. 37. Mr. Russell.] Do you notice as time goes on, and as these girls stay in the Home, an improvement in them.generally ?—I think their moral tone improves. Looking back from the time I started, I think there has been an improvement. 38. Mr. Hunt.] Have you the confidence of the girls? Do they talk to you freely? —Yes, I think so. • 39. Have they ever complained to you about their treatment here? —I do not allow them to complain. 40. Have they ever complained to you about their work outside?— Yes, they complain they do not like the outside work. They would like to be taught cooking and dressmaking and housework generally. They would like to be trained domestic servants or housewives. 41. What are your school-hours? —9.30 to 11.30 and then drill to noon, and from 1 p.m. until 3 p.m. 42. Do you think the work, they do in the morning affects their capacity for learning?— Yes; they are tired out when they come in. 43. Mr. Salter.] What effect has this manual labour upon them as girls: do you think it ; s suitable work for them as girls?—l think to answer such a question might place me in a false position. 44. The Commissioner.] Are you subject to the standard examinations?— Yes; and I did not do very well last year. 45. Of course, you cannot expect much from this type of girl and two hours a day, but what are your average results? —I have not had the results for the last two years, and I have been sending continually to the Department for them.

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A. HAKBISON.I

46. 1 was going to ask you to compare these results with what you would expect to obtain in an ordinary school ?—They are not so good, 47. You carry right up to the Sixth Standard?— The Department do not want me to do that, and the matter is just now under discussion. I saw Dr. Anderson at Christmas time, and he told me he does not want me to take further than the Fourth Standard. 48. But suppose a girl had passed the Fourth Standard before she came to the Home? —Then it disheartens them if they are kept back at the low work, and that is what I do not like. 49. You have to keep them down?—l have not so far, but if a girl is well on she likes to go further on. It is so discouraging to her to go over the old ground. I would prefer to take them on. Of course it gives me more work, but Ido not mind that. 50. What has your average attendance been during the last three months? —Thirty or over in the morning and twenty in the afternoon. 51. From your experience with the girls, can you suggest any improvement in your side of the institution that would tend to improve the standard, morally or otherwise, of the inmates, because your work ought to be a considerable factor ?—Yes, and I think it ought to be regarded as that. 52. I want you to make any suggestion, because my object, and the Department's, too, in asking me to hold this inquiry, is to find the weak spots?—l think every girl in the Home should attend school during the two hours. 53. You think that should be compulsory ?—Yes. 54. You would suggest, ( then, that exemption from the two hours a day should not be left to the will of the Matron ?—Yes; I think every girl has a right to have two hours a day at least at school. 55. And you would regard that as little enough?— Yes. 56. And you are not in favour of girls having manual labour in the morning?— Yes; but that would be impossible. 57. Which girls do you take in the morning?— The most backward. 58. Why do you not take them 1 in the afternoon? —They have to go out in the afternoon. I have no room for the whole of them in the little schoolroom. I have only thirty desks. 59. You say the school-accommodation is insufficient?— Well, I never thought of having them. 60. It is essential the Department should place every facility in the matter of accommodation iv your way: Have you ever represented this matter to the Department? —No. I have not been in the schoolroom very long. 61. You say the school-accommodation in the institution is insufficient to carry out the work which you think important to the institution? —Yes, provided I am allowed to take my morning girls in the afternoon. t 62. Then, do you think your work as a teacher would be assisted and improved by having all the girls together at one particular school-time?—lt would be rather too much work to take fiftyfour. 63. What is the full accommodation of your present school?— Thirty-two. 64. And you have a roll of fifty-four ?—Yes. 65. You cannot take all the girls at one time? —No. 66. Then, you would prefer to teach them in two sections? —Yes. 67. I want you to suggest some way in which you could take the girls when they are not tired? —If I had my way I should take them for two hours in the morning and two hours in the afternoon —every one of them. 68. But you said you could not teach them all? —Yes; if I had them for the four hours. 69. I suppose the big girls are of a dense type?— Some of them are. They do not care to think of one subject too long. Their thoughts wander. 70. There is no limit to age so far as your school is concerned? —No. 71. Mr. Pope.] State your grounds for saying the Matron is out of sympathy with your schoolwork? —I know it by many things—by the way she talks at dinner-table many a time about the school. 72. Tell us what she has said?—l think I had better say the Matron would like to shorten the work of the girls in school. 73. With what object? —She likes them to be outside at the other work. 74. Does that necessarily mean she*"is out of sympathy with the school? —The Matron does not think it is as important as I do. 75. And therefore you think she is out of sympathy?— Yes, I do. 'And I am kept waiting so long for many things. I was kept more than three months waiting for a bottle of ink, and I have not yet got the clubs which I applied for long ago. 76. You know the ordinary method of procedure: have you requisitioned the Department for the clubs?—No, because the Matron said she would buy them herself at Strange's. 77. When did you last remind her? —I used to get the girls to worry her, 78. Are you not aware that before you came here the Matron herself tried to give the girls instruction in composition and arithmetic?—No; I thought it was Miss Mcintosh. 79. At any rate, it was done at the Home? —Yes. 80. Does that indicate that the Matron is out of sympathy with school instruction?—l do not know anything about that. 81. You have your attendance register showing these absences and irregularities?— Yes [produced]. 82. Have you ever represented any of these matters to the departmental officers? —No. 83. You have spoken freely to Mr. Walker and myself?— Yes, to Mr. Walker. 84. And myself ?—We have had chats, but not about business.

H.—2l.

[a. Habbison.

85. Have you ever represented this serious business of overwork (as you regard it) to any of the departmental officers? —No, I have not thought of such a thing. 86. Then, it was not by any means a burning question with you as the teacher of the school? -No. 87. The Commissioner.] I understand you to say you could get better results if you had more attention paid to this particular subject?— Yes. 88. Mr. Pope.] But you have not brought it before the departmental officers? —No. 89. That means it was not a very large question with you?—l never thought of questioning authority. Idoas I am told. 90. Mr. Russell.] You think the girls show signs of lassitude when they come into school?— Yes. Friday, 6th March, 1908. Arthur Douglas Aitken examined on oath. 1. Mr. Salter.] You are an accountant, living in Christchurch? —Yes. 2. And girl known as L R is in your employ?— Yes. 3. How long has she been with you? —From the 6th November, 1907—under a license. 4. Was there any mention of the girl's age on the license?— No. 5. When did you pay this girl her wages?—l waited to see if 1 would get a form the same as another employer of a Te Oranga girl received. I did not receive it, but 1 got a message through Mrs. Aitken that the Matron had met her in the street and had asked her to send up the sum of £2 Bs. with L . 6. Did you send it?— Yes, by the girl, who said she had handed it to the matron, who would send a receipt in due course. I waited until the 7th February, and then I wrote asking the Matron to send me an official receipt. 7. I think on the 10th February you received a receipt?—l received my own letter back, with an apology from the Matron for omitting to send a receipt, and a receipt at the bottom. 8. Did you receive a receipt in the official form?— No. 9. I understand the Matron called at your house a short time after this? —She had been to see who had informed L that her age was twenty-one. The Matron then told us that L was twenty-one, and that she had received permission to keep the girl under her control for another year, I understood, leading us to understand that we still held the girl under license. You will notice the license is issued to us dated " November, 1908." 10. Did you get a message to pay the girl any more money? —Yes; I. was requested to send the sum of £1 4s. by L , who was to meet the Matron, and that the Matron was to bank the original moneys and the £1 4s. in her name. 11. Did you do that?—No; because I had signed the license to pay the money quarterly to the manager, and I wished to receive notice that everything was in clue order. Margaret Early examined on oath. 1. Mr. Salter.] You are a registered nurse? —Yes. 2. You were until recently Matron at the Samaritan Home? —Yes. 3. Do you remember a girl named A G ?—Yes. 4. Was she sent to your Home?— Yes. 5. Where from?— The Court. 6. How long was she with you? —For three weeks. She was then sent to Te Oranga Home. That would be in March, 1905. Her behaviour with us was very good during those three weeks. 7. When did you hear of her next?— Mrs. Branting said she was not behaving at all well, and that all at Te Oranga—both the girls and the attendants—disliked her. She said she was putting on a lot of side, and showing off airs and one thing and another, and was getting very rebellious. 8. It was after that she was sent to the Asylum?— Yes. 9. Subsequent to her being in the Asylum, when did you hear of her?— Mrs. Branting told me she was getting very desperate, and that something would have to be done—that she was showing signs of lunacy, and was ready to commit suicide or murder, she was quite sure. Next I heard of her in the Asylum. I asked there if she considered A was really out of her mind, and she said they did not detect one symptom of insanity. They found her exactly the same as we did. 10. She was sent from the Asylum back to Te Oranga?-—Yes. 11. And about July, 1906, came back again to the Samaritan Home?— Yes. 12. Why did she come to your Home at all?— Mrs. Branting rang me up to know if I would mind having her back, and I said " No." I consulted Nurse Morris and the Chairman of the Trustees, and she came back. 13. What did you find this girl was like?— She was rather excitable and nervous when she came back again, and inclined to quarrel with the other girls, but she soon got over it, and behaved splendidly again. We always found her very amenable to discipline, kind-hearted, and willing to do anything for any one who was not able to wait upon themselves. 14. I suppose she was treated firmly and kindly?— Yes; she needed both firmness and kindness. 15. Did you ever suggest to Mrs. Branting she should go to service?— Yes, when she had been in the Home three months. 16. Did Mrs. Branting object?— Yes; she said she was going to keep the girl within bolts and bars as long as it lay in her power.

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M. EABLT.'I

17. You continued to make efforts to get her into service? —Yes; I mentioned the matter to Mrs. Bean several times, and I brought it before my Committee several times, and all agreed she should have a chance with the exception of Mrs. Branting. 18. What happened eventually?—l asked the Committee to see Mrs. Branting, to try and get justice done, and in due time the Chairman did see Mrs. Branting, and he gave a very unfavourable report to the Ladies' Committee. He said Mrs. Branting accused the girl of such terrible things that he certainly could not sanction her going into a house—at any rate, where there were young children. I think Mrs. Branting had no reason to speak like that, because 1 was sure she could not prove it. I let the matter drop for a little while, and brought it up over and over again, and Mr. Sorensen always brought up what Mrs. Branting had said. So at last 1 thought, even supposing she was as black as Mrs. Branting painted her, she merited a chance since she had been with us. She had then been with us a year. I asked the Committee to see Mrs. Branting; again and again she refused her permission to let A go to service. I then asked Mr. Sorensen if he would approach a higher power to get justice done, and he said No. He was not going to quarrel with outside people. I asked him if he would authorise me to do so, and he said " No, certainly not." 1 let the matter drop again, and then Mrs. Bean came along. They had taken an interest in A , and wondered why such a nice girl should be kept with such a lot of old people like we have. I said it was a case I felt rather sore about. Mrs. Bean said she would give 12s. a week for her, on my recommendation. I informed Mrs. Bean of the position. I brought Mrs. Bean's offer before the Committee at their next meeting, and the Chairman said the Committee saw no reason to object to the girl going out in that case. So Mrs. Bean approached Mrs. Branting, who again repeated she was going to keep A within bolts and bars, and protect the country from the likes of her. Eventually Mrs. Bean got the consent of the Department for her to go to service, and word to that effect came down to Mrs. Bean and Mrs. Branting. 19. What happened then?— Mrs. Branting rang me up to say A was to have a chance, but on conditions, and when I inquired what were the conditions, she said that I should recommend A , and be willing to accept the responsibility of her going to Mrs. Bean's. I said I would be only too pleased, and Mrs. Branting said I must put it in writing, and I did so right away, so as not to miss even one post. I posted it to Mrs. Branting. Mrs. Bean came in just then, and I told her what I had done, and Mrs. Bean said she wished I had sent it direct to Wellington, as that would perhaps have been more satisfactory. I said I did not like, to do so, as I had said I would send it to Mrs. Branting. Mrs. Bean said she would write to Mrs. Branting, and ask. her to send my recommendation at once to Wellington without any comment. I believe Mrs. Branting promised to do so. The girl in the meantime had commenced to pack, and was waiting for word to come every day to go to the situation. Word did not come, so in a week's time Mrs. Bean said she would wait no longer, and she sent a telegram to Wellington, and received a reply the same afternoon to say they were awaiting my report, 20. Your report had been sent to Mrs. Branting how long before?— Six days. Next, word came that instead of A going to a situation she was to be returned to Te Oranga Home. I rang up the Chairman to ask if I could do anything to prevent such a thing as sending her to the one place under the sun that her whole soul loathed. He said to send her back, and I said 1 could not do it. 21. The upshot of it was ?—A was sent back to Te Oranga. She only remained there a fortnight, and has been in service ever since at Mrs. Bean's, earning 12s. a week, and doing well. 22. You have frequently seen her and Mrs. Bean, too? —Yes. 23. And the report is very favourable? —Yes. 24. Mr. Russell.] The girl was sent to the Samaritan Home at the request of Mrs. Branting?— Yes. 25. And you understood she was still under the jurisdiction of the Education Department? —Yes. 26. Then, when the lawful authorities from Te Oranga came to take her back, why did you take it upon yourself to refuse to give her to them?— Because she had been sent away twice to prevent her committing suicide and murder, and I was not going to compel her to go back again. 27. Why did you want to defy the law? —It was a choice between two evils, and I thought I would choose the least. 28. You knew you were committing a breach of the law? —Yes. 29. At that time Mrs. Bean had arranged with you to get this girl?— Yes. 30. So your action was to get this girl to service at Mrs. Bean's?— Not only to Mrs. Bean's. I was just as anxious A should go anywhere. 31. When Miss Hunt came, did you refuse to let the girl go?—I said to her, " You can come in and take A , but I will not hold a finger up to make her go. If you can persuade her all well and good." 32. Did you not tell Miss Hunt you would not allow her to go to her destruction?—l flatly deny that. 33. How was it a policeman had to come and get the girl? —Because I said I would not use any force to make her go. I told Miss Hunt so. 34. Did you tell the girl " You are under the authority of the State, and this is your statutory guardian"?—l did not. A knew that quite well. She is a sensible girl. I did not converse with the girl more than I oould help, because she was broken-hearted when she knew she had to go back again. 35. If Miss Hunt says you would not allow her to go, and used these words " I will not allow her to go to her destruction," there is no truth in that?— No. I said, " I will not be a party to it. I will not use any force." I certainly did not say I would not allow it, because I knew I had no authority to prevent it.

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[m. early.

36. Did Mrs. Branting ring you up a few minutes afterwards, and say you were foolish not to let the girl go home? —She did; but she used much stronger language than that. 37. And in replying, did you say, "My conscience will not let me "?—I may have used those words. Ido not remember. I said it was no use discussing the matter with her. I would not go to the telephone at first. When Miss Hunt asked me, I said, " She is immovable in this matter, and so am I." 38. You would not influence the girl togo back? —I said to her, " A , if you have to go back do not make any fuss, but behave yourself as well as you have done here." 39. What did you mean by "If you have to go back "? —I do not know, lam sure. 40. I. understand you to say you did not assist the authorities in any way to get the girl back ? —I did not assist them. I said I would be no party to it. 41. Did you tell A G that the authorities wanted her back at the Home? —Yes, by this time. At first I did not tell her straight out. 1 told her there was a possibility of her being sent back to Te Oranga. 42. You knew at that time she was going back?— Yes. 43. Why did you not tell her so instead of saying it was possible?—l wanted to break it to her gently, because I knew it would be a shock. 44. When Miss Hunt came, why did you not say to the girl, "A , it is your duty to go back"? —I told her straight out they were coming for her, and I said, "A , I promised to do what I could for you, and I will not fail you now. I will not use any force to make you go back." 45. You gave her practically your moral support?—l suppose I did. 46. Do you not know that girl had attempted to commit suicide once or twice at the Home? —I knew they talked about it. 47. Do you know she took a knife and tried to murder another girl?—l knew they said so. 48. I suppose you did not believe it?—l have seen them do it very often when they get in a bit of a tantrum. 49. Do you know that on one occasion it took three or four girls to hold her to prevent her killing herself ?—No. 50. Do you know her mother died a raving lunatic in an asylum?—l knew she died in an asylum, but not a raving lunatic. 51. And you knew she had been committed to the asylum by Mr. Bishop after investigation by two medical men? —I knew she had been committed. 52. What did you mean by the word "destruction "?—Well, she had been sent away twice to prevent suicide or murder, and I knew she would do nothing of that sort in the Samaritan Home or at service. 53. With her suicidal tendencies? —She did not show any of these tendencies with us. 54. 1 believe even next day, when Miss Hunt returned, it took the efforts of your Committee and the police to get the girl away? You were still bellicose? —Oh, no. The Committee came up to settle with me for defying the Chairman. On the second occasion when the constable came I had nothing to do with it, because I had then been suspended. 55. Had the girl any delusions when she was with you? —No. 56. Not that every one in the world was against her, and that people said things about her? —She talked a bit wildly when she came first, and said things she did not actually mean, and was sorry for directly afterwards. 57. Did the Rev. Mr. Fendal see you about this case?— No. 58. Did the girl, when she was with you, ever express any wish to be back at Te Oranga?—I cannot remember it. 59. Did she ever say she did not want to go back?— Yes. 60. Are you surpised if I read a letter from her to the Matron in which she says, " Samaritan Home, Sunday.—Dear Matron, —I am feeling much happier since I came here, but I miss you all very much. I would like to be back, with you again "?—I am not very surprised, because if A was a little bit unhappy she often sat down and wrote things she did not mean. Henry Bylove Sorensen examined on oath. 1. Mr. Salter.] You are an auctioneer, residing in Christchurch?—Yes. 2. You were Chairman of the Boafd of Trustees of the Samaritan Home? —Yes. 3. You remember the difficulty about A G ?—Yes. 4. I believe Miss Early spoke to you and objected to the girl going back to Te Oranga Home?— Yes. 5. You gave some information to Miss Early that you had received from Mrs. Branting? —What I said was that if the report received from Mrs. Branting was correct, as I had reason to believe in the first instance, it would not be safe at that time to send the girl to take charge of small children. 6. Tell us exactly what Mrs. Branting said to you about this girl?—l do not remember exactly, as this was some six months prior to the difficulty between Miss Early and Mrs. Branting. When Mrs. Bean first rang me up, and asked for this girl, I told her we held the girl from the Department, and referred her to Mrs. Branting. • 7. Cannot you remember the report Mrs. Branting gave you of this girl?—l cannot positively remember. One thing Ido remember. She said the girl's mother died in an asylum, that the girl was very excitable, and somewhat lax in morals. 8. You believed all this on Mrs. Branting's word? —Yes. 9. In consequence of this, you declined to agree to Miss Early's proposals for the girl to go to service?— Yes. The Committee considered the question, and were rather in favour of givin<>-

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H. B. SOKENSEN.J

A a chance. I saw her often, and saw she was improving, and personally I had no objection whatever, and told Mrs. Branting so some time after. The matter was referred to Wellington, and Mrs. Branting got a reply that if we did not wish to keep A she could be sent back to Te Oranga Home. I replied that we did not wish to get rid of her, but wanted to give her a chance. 10. Mr. Russell.] Do you know Nurse Early refused to let the girl go back to Te-Oranga when they sent for her? —Yes. Mrs. Branting rang me up to say she had. made a demand for the girl, and that Miss Early refused to deliver her. I rang up Miss Early, and she said to me " No; I cannot deliver her. My conscience will not allow me. You are very wrong, and I will not let her go." In fact, I rang off, as Miss Early was a little excited. Afterwards Mrs. Branting rang up again, as Miss Hunt had been there all the afternoon, and said something about a policeman, and I believe the local constable went and asked for delivery of the girl and was refused. On Saturday morning another trustee, Mr. Bridge, and myself went up and asked Miss, Early why she did not let the girl go. She said much the same as before, "My conscience will not allow me. I think it is sending her to her destruction if she goes back to Te Oranga. It is a shocking thing to let her go back." Miss Early was then suspended, and shortly afterwards the authorities came for the girl. In the meantime we saw A , and she was very willing to go back. She had no objection. We told her there was no punishment in the matter. Rose Morris examined on oath. 1. Mr. Salter.] You are a registered nurse, residing in Christchurch?—Yes. 2. You were nurse at the Samaritan Home when A G was there?— Yes. 3. Do you remember her being brought to the Home? —Yes, on both occasions. 4. Was she under your supervision?— Yes. 5. What sort of girl did you find her? —She was a very good girl, and a great help upstairs. 6. Do you remember Mrs. Branting coming to see her?— Yes, on two or three occasions. I was present, because A asked that I should be present. 7. What effect did Mrs. Branting have on A ?—A very bad effect. It used to make her miserable for days afterwards. It used to take me quite a time to get her back to a normal condition. Mrs. Branting used to rub her up the wrong way. If A said she was getting on well Mrs. Branting would say she was getting on too well, and needed some of her strapping to keep her down. 8. Did you consider her manner objectionable to the girl? —Certainly. 9. But during her stay in the Home she was well behaved? —Yes, except that occasionally, like all other girls, she would get little bouts of temper, but no worse than the others. 10. Mr. Russell.] I suppose you found that the girl was not fond of Mrs. Branting?—Once or twice she would say Mrs. Branting could be kind, but that she was never kind to her. She always thought Mrs. Branting had a down on her. She told me that many times. 11. From what you could see, had the girl a dread of going back to Mrs. Branting? —She looked upon it with perfect horror. If she saw anything in the papers about a girl being committed, she said " Thank Goodness, that's not me." 12. I will read a letter she has lately written to Mrs. Branting from Mrs. Bean's house. " My Dear Matron, —I rung you up to-night, for 1 wanted to say a lot to you, but I had not the chance. My dear Matron, you perhaps think I do not care for you, but that is not so. Your kindness to me in the short time I was back in the Home has atoned for all the past—what has been said, and what has not. I look back over these last few weeks, and think what has been going on for the sake of a chance of service. . . . Dear Matron, I don't wish to feel any ill will against you. We are not placed here to be enemies, but to be at charity with every one. Dear Matron, I have not a place to go to. I looked, forward to coming up to see you all. Well, Matron, you can put your full confidence in me, for if all the girls turn out as well as I intend to do they will be a credit to you. I am not boasting over what I have said. . . ." That does not read like the letter of a girl who looks upon Mrs. Branting with horror?—l am only speaking of what I heard. 13. How do you reconcile that letter with what was said to you?—l could not have thought it possible for A to write a letter like that, 14. Is it not more likely that these thoughts were put into her head by you?— Most decidedly not. I never suggested such a thing. ' I did not know anything about Mrs. Branting. She was a stranger to me. 15. It was clear Miss Early had taken the idea that Mrs. Branting's judgment was wrong, and that the girl ought to be at service. Were you not putting the girl against Te Oranga Home? —Certainly not. 16. You say this girl talked in your hearing nothing but horror of Mrs. Branting, and yet she wrote this letter, breathing almost affectionate expressions to her?—l have told you the truth. I am astonished she should have written such a letter. Monday, 9th March, 1908. Henry Patten examined on oath. 1. The Commissioner.] Where do you live?—ln Christchurch. 2. What is your occupation?—l am a tailor. 3. I understand you wrote to the Commission expressing your willingness to give evidence? —Yes,

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[h. patten.

4. How long have you had an acquaintance with the working of Te Oranga Home I —lt is spread over a period just under two years. 5. How often have you been in the habit of visiting the Home? —I have been there as substitute for Mr. Smail. 6. In what capacity does Mr. Smail visit the Home?—To take afternoon service on Sundays. 7. I may take it you only visited the Home on Sunday afternoons?— Yes. 8. How long would you remain there ?—Service would be about an hour. I would probably be in the Home an hour and a half. 9. Do you wish to make any statement of your views based on your experience?—l may say I have had considerable experience in dealing with the class of material such as you have at Burnham and Te Oranga. It is a matter I have studied somewhat and taken an interest in, otherwise I should not have visited these institutions. Judging from what I saw of the girls, they appearea to be well cared for and cheerful. I have formed my opinion with reference to the Matron and the general conduct of the Home, as far as I was able to judge, from the time I was there. I think the Home has gone in. the direction of doing these girls good. Looking at these girls as they are assembled, I cannot see anything in their faces indicative of hard treatment, and I think any harsh treatment that young people have been subjected to leaves its mark to a certain extent on the features. I did not see any such marks. 10. You do not mean physical marks, of course?— No. I am aware that the material they have in this institution is very difficult to deal with. I am the last in the world to be in favour of any undue harshness, or anything of that sort; but whilst that is so, I am firmly of opinion there are cases where corporal punishment is necessary, both in the interests of the inmates themselves and of the community at large. The girls were always attentive and respectful when I was speaking to them. I had no personal conversation with any of the inmates. I think here I might be allowed to say that I think the Matron has qualifications that are necessary for the conduct of such an institution. She is cheerful, and of a cheerful disposition, and I think she is not lacking in kindness. I also believe she has a measure of firmness, otherwise she would not be fitted for the position. I have seen the reports in the papers about the employment the girls are put to. I think the manual labour they have to do there is of a helpful character, and must tend to do them good, physically and morally. It has been reported to me that many girls who have left the Home have turned out well, and such cases are evidence that good work has been done. That is all I have to say. . 11. Mr. Salter.] How many Sundays do you think you have been there altogether?— Nine or ten Sundays, as near as possible. 12. These comprise the extent of your visits to the Home?— Yes. 13. And, as your service took an hour, you had only half an hour to spare to look round? — About that, Sometimes a little more, on occasions. 14. The girls, of course, were all dressed in their Sunday best, if they have a Sunday best there ?—I presume so. 15. Were all the girls at the service? —With the exception of the Catholic girls, I think so. - 16. You saw nothing in their faces indicative of harsh treatment?— No. 17. Do you think a girl who had been severely punished during the week would be likely to show that in her face on Sunday?—l think so. I believe I should. 18. You say, in your opinion, corporal punishment is necessary'in certain cases?— Yes. 19. What are these cases?—Of course, I am not in a position to judge, but with the material you have there you must meet with cases where it is quite in accordance with reasonable commonsense that the punishment should be tried. 20. Would you consider that for a girl twelve cuts with a strap J in. thick would be severe punishment or otherwise?—lt depends how it is laid on. 21. You are the father of a family? —Yes. 22. In your experience, have you found that more can be done by kindness than by severity? —Yes, according to the disposition of the children ; but if you have children with criminal instincts, who have been brought up in crime, that is altogether a .afferent thing. You must know that, 23. What would be your opinion with regard to locking a girl in a cell for a small offence?— Of course, I do not know what the offence is. 24. Well, for scorching an aprorKwhile ironing?—Of course, the people in the institution are best able to judge whether it was carelessness or not. 25. Would you consider that harsh treatment?— No. 26. Mr. Russell.] Have you seen the cell: it is simply an ordinary room?— No. I have seen the detention-yard. But if that treatment goes to make her more careful in the future, that is right punishment, I should say. 27. Mr. Salter.] Then, you are practically here to uphold the Matron in all she has done? —No, not necessarily. I hold no brief for the Matron. lam speaking in the interests of the children. 28. Your opinion, formed after seeing her nine times on Sunday afternoons, is that the Matron has every qualification for the position—she is cheerful and has a measure of kindness and a measure of firmness: you have gleaned all that of her character after seeing her nine times? —Well, I have more conversation with the Matron than with the girls. 29. Do you consider, because the Matron is cheerful and kind whilst, with you, she would also cheerful and kind with the girls?—l do not infer it would be so, but so far as I am able to judge from what I have seen of the Matron, that is so. 30. You say you have read the report with regard to the physical work of cutting down trees and cross-cutting and splitting, and so forth: is that work you would give your own girl to do? —That is no more to the point than your other was.

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H. PATTEN.]

31. How would it do them good morally? —In dealing with this class of girls the more you keep them employed the better it is for them morally, for if they have idle time, and associate together, it is a common practice for them to contaminate each other. The more you keep them at healthy employment, both for mind and body, the more success you may look, for in an institution of that kind. 32. Even if the girls do work that would be laborious work for a man?—Of course, they should not do more than the bodily strength of the girls warrants. That is, of course, a different thing; but I should not think, from what I have seen here, that the work would be so hard. The trees are not very large. I have seen them. 33. You know some of the girls in that Home are not there for criminal offences? —Possibly so. 34. And you know they are mixed up with the others? —And, unfortunately, there are others deeply tainted. 35. The Commissioner.] You have expressed an opinion with regard to corporal punishment. Of course, you know the girls there are of all ages, many of them being close upon twenty-one. In expressing your opinion in regard to corporal punishment, do you limit the age?— Yes, discretion should be used. 36. Do you think it is a desirable thing to strap a girl approaching twenty-one years of age? —If all other methods have failed, but not until then, I should advocate it. 37. What methods would you suggest trying?— There is the power of moral suasion, and trying to get the girl to look at things from a different standpoint, by which she will judge differently, and so influence her conduct differently. 38. Do you really think, looking to the fact that the girls are there to be reformed, that giving twelve strokes with a strap to a girl laid on her face on a bed is likely to have any reforming effect ?—I do not know the nature of the offence. 39. The offence generally is for absconding?—Of course, it would act differently upon different characters. It might have a tendency to harden some girls. Ido not think that punishment can be done away with there any more than in the elementary schools. 40. You do not have girls of twenty in an elementary school? —No. 41. Have you any ideas about cutting hair as a form of punishment ?—I think it is also for the purpose of preventing their committing the same offence of absconding. 42. You think a girl is less likely to clear out with her hair cropped and her head in a noticeable condition ?—Yes, and in that case I should advocate it. 43. Mr. Russell.] Supposing strapping were abolished, and you had a girl not only absconding but endeavouring to get eight or nine other girls to abscond with the avowed intention of living a life of prostitution, what punishment would you suggest?— There is no punishment 1 could advocate. If they are not open to moral suasion in any way, I think the case is hopeless. Adam Frederick John Mikle examined on oath. 1. Mr. Salter.] You are a duly qualified medical practitioner, residing in Christchurch? —Yes. 2. I think in September of last year you were called to attend Miss Howden, at Te Oranga Home?— Yes. 3. What condition did you find her in?— She had a very acute attack of influenza. 4. Could you tell us what her temperature was when you first saw her ?—lt was the ordinary temperature in such a case, but later on her temperature was 1045. 5. What state was she in?— Showing the usual symptoms of influenza—severe headache, high fever, coughing, and pains in the chest. 6. Did you have any conversation with the Matron about her? —Yes. 7. What took place?— What generally takes place under such circumstances. The only thing I have to say is this : I suppose, owing to circumstances, the patient could not receive, and did not receive, perhaps as much nursing and attention to diet as the case required. The Matron told me at the time they could not nurse a severe case in the institution, as no person had been appointed for such a purpose, and any case of that sort was sent to the Hospital. 8. Did you say it was necessary that a nurse should be got?— Not at first; but afterwards, when I found her in what I consideretl. a really dangerous condition, I was very much afraid pneumonia might supervene, and I thought it really not safe to leave her unattended by a competent person that night. 9. Did the Matron say whether any one could be with her that night?—l understood from the Matron there was no person in the institution who could undertake that duty, and I said I would send a nurse, and I did so. 10. Can you form any idea from your conversation with the Matron, and from her action in the matter, whether she had any sympathy at all with the patient?— Well, of course, people differ greatly in their demonstrations. 11. Do you know what diet Miss Howden had been having? —The diet was not satisfactory. Certainly she did not receive, as I said before, either proper attention or proper dieting. I cannot say anything else. 12. Would that indicate that the person in charge either had not the knowledge or inclination?— One or the other. I think Mrs. Branting scarcely understood Miss Howden to be as ill as she was. She seemed to be a little unwilling to believe she was so ill. 13. The Commissioner.] Did you indicate any form of diet?—l am sure to have done so. 14. Mr. Salter.] Do you know whether your directions were altered after your first visit? —I she" 1 1 give instructions at each visit.

6 H. 21.

H.—2l.

A. F. J. MIKLB.

15. I believe Miss Howden subsequently was removed to a private hospital?— That is true. Of course, the Matron told me distinctly they had not the means to look after people who were ill at the institution. 16. Do you know that, although Miss Howden was so ill on that occasion, the Matron went to the theatre with an attendant that night ?—I know nothing of my own knowledge. 17. I believe you went down to see the Matron subsequently in regard to Miss Howden? — Yes. 18. What was the object of that visit?— Miss Howden requested me, as her medical attendant, to see the Matron, and ascertain whether she could be relieved from morning duty—that is, superintending the girls early in the morning. 19. Did you ask the Matron? —I represented to the Matron that Miss Howden was not in a state of health really to undertake duties of that kind early in the morning on the damp grass. She has a rather delicate chest at any time. Mrs. Branting told me she could not be relieved, and said if she could not do the duties she would have to resign. Therefore, I did not press the matter. I went there purely in the capacity of doctor. 20. Mr. Russell.] I understand you found this patient simply suffering from an attack of ordinary influenza? —I have just said so. 21. She had.been in bed two or three days?— She was in bed. 22. That was proper treatment? —Certainly. 23. So that to that extent Mrs. Branting had done the right thing?— Yes. 24. You wanted the girl in the best condition to get well, an-d you wanted a night nurse, and as there was none in the Home she went to a hospital?— Yes. I may say Miss Hunt and Miss Mills seemed willing to do what they could. 25. You do not suggest any coldness or harshness on the part of any one to the girl?—l must conscientiously say that the Matron might have shown a little more kindness. 26. In what way?—ln giving a little more attention. 27. What attention did she lack before you got there?—l do not know, but I know after 1 went there she did not receive as much attention as she should. 28. Do you mean during the few minutes you were in the Home? —No. 29. What do you mean? —I mean from the questions I asked Miss Howden. 30. Do you know what diet she had? —I asked the girl. 31. Did you ask the Matron?— Yes. 32. What was the -diet you objected to? She had soup and milk?— Yes, and solid food at a time when she should not have had it. 33. That might be an error of judgment, but would not suggest want of kindness on Mrs. Branting's part?— Mrs. Branting seemed unwilling to believe the girl as ill as she was. 34. You know she had many cases of influenza in the Home?— Yes; and some people think far too lightly of it. 35. Has it come to this, that your only suggestion of harshness is that Mrs. Branting allowed the girl to have solid foodi Can you tell us anything else?— According to the patient's report she was left too long without any attention. 36. Was that said in front of Mrs. Branting?—l do not think so. 37. When you ordered the girl away, did she get up and dress herself ?—No. 38. Who dressed her? —The nurse I sent. 39. You are quite sure of it?—l was not there, but it was so reported to me. 40. Did she walk down the hall without any assistance ?—No. 41. What assistance di-d she have f—The nurse was there. The only thing I know about the case is that she was very ill the night before. The nurse sat up all night, and gave me a report the following morning, and I am quite sure that as a result of that attention Miss Howden was able to leave the Home the following morning. 42. She did not go back for a fortnight?—l cannot say. 43. Why did the girl want to stay and do the work if she found it difficult?—l cannot say. 44. Did you tell Mrs. Branting that you yourself had often been out visiting patients when suffering worse from influenza?— Not worse than on that night, but earlier. 45. Mr. Salter.] Neither Miss Hunt or Miss Mills offered to sit up when they knew the difficulty about a nurse?— Mrs. Branting said they had their other duties'and could "not. William Kobert Turned examined on oath. 1. The Commissioner.] You reside at Shirley?—Yes. 2. What are you?— Farmer and builder. 3. Are you acquainted with Te Oranga Home?— Yes; I have lived on the adjoining section since the school started. 4. Is there any statement j'ou wish to make in regard to the Home, or the manner in which it is fulfilling its object I—At one time I felt rather opposed to the Home, simply because I thought it was bringing up the offspring of criminals and bad characters in a more luxurious manner than a respectable working-man is able to bring up his children. During the eight years of its existence I have never seen anything objectionable, either in the manner of the girls or of the attendants in any way. I have seen them at work, and Ido not think they are excessively worked. In fact, they appear to take their own time over it. I also consider it quite necessary, in view of the condition's under which the Home is worked, that the girls should do outside work, to give them exercise otherwise there appears to be absolutely nothing for them to do, with the present accommodation they have. I attended the first sitting of the Commission at Te Oranga, and, having heard the evidence, T thought I would like to give mine. I have seen the girls working at the woodoutting. In fact, my house being on the adjoining section, and" standing high on a hill

H.—2l.

W. R. TURNER.]

we command a view of the girls and their work throughout the day. I have never seen anything objectionable in the work they have done, neither have I seen anything like driving on the part of the attendants. I have made one or two calculations as to the work they have done. I may say I have known the site of the Home during the last thirty years. The place is not a forest by any means, and my estimate of the total number of trees felled by the girls since the Home started is from twenty-five to thirty. I also estimate that the produce from these trees, allowing three trees to a cord—some of the trees being rather small —at about 10 cords of wood. I have credited the girls with 10s. per cord for cutting. They have also stumped, so far as I am aware, about ten stumps, for which I have allowed 2s. 6d., so that the total value of the labour they have done at the trees I estimate at £6 ss. for the eight years. That is an excessive value. I may state that the method adopted by the girls is to climb up a tree and fix a rope, and very delighted they seem at the operation. They are all laughing and smiling. They then cut the lateral roots, and haul on the rope, and the tree comes up, pulling up several feet of the tap root like a carrot. Of course, the girls are very much delighted wlien the tree falls. I also estimated that if you divided these 10 cords up amongst the sixty girls it would amount to about a barrowload of wood each, which I suppose would be about enough to keep each one warm in the summer. In my capacity as builder I have been working there during the last four or five weeks, and I have seen them cutting the wood. I have seen the manner in which they work, so I am in a position to judge as to whether they are overworked or not. 5. Mr. Russell.] Do they seem distressed?—No; they take care they are not distressed. I am building a conservatory for the Home, and before starting the foundations I pointed out to the Matron it would be necessary to remove three pine trees. These trees were cut down before I started the foundations. I think Mr. Bone helped them. I measured the largest tree, and 1 think it was about 20 in. at the butt. Ever since that time the girls have been working intermittently at these trees, and the greater portion of them is remaining there yet, uncut. I estimate that two men would have felled the trees and split them up into firewood in two days. Perhaps the girls come and work for an hour—at least they are there, and they seem to please themselves how they work. The attendants come and look at them now and again. The girls have a large and small cross-cut saw. I have seen two girls start in the morning and work for an hour, and cut a little piece off the end of one of these trees about 8 in. in diameter. That would be the morning's work. They come out again between 1 and 2 sometimes, and at the end of the day they had cut three sections -off that log. That was their day's work. The attendants would come and look at them occasionally, and say, " Now, girls you are not getting on very well with this work." The girls replied, " Oh, Miss Hunt, you can come and have a try." Shortly after that the Matron came up, and the girls seemed to be highly delighted at the presence of the matron. In high glee, they asked her to come and have a try. She asked what was the matter that they were not getting on, and the girls said the tree was not cutting very well. The Matron asked them if they had any grease, and when they said "no " she took the trouble to go down 'to the shed and fetch a bottle of oil. This morning, as another instance, at about 10.10 o'clock a girl came up with a cross-cut saw, and went to one of the logs and sat there. After a little while another girl came along. They put the saw in a cut, and found the saw did not fit, so they went across to another tree, and after about a ten minutes' confab they started cutting this log, which was probably between 15 in. and 18 in. in diameter. They were working within 10 ft. of me, and I could not help but notice their operations. They worked until 11.15 a.m.. and they had then cut down 5 in. They thought then they were pretty near knock-off time, and they went back with the saw to the Home. In the meantime two other girls had started at another log. They also tried an old cut, which did not fit the saw, so I advised them, to start a fresh one, which they did, and after being there about two hours they succeeded in getting down 3 in. into the log, partly with the axe and partly with the saw. Those who know anything about cross-cutting know you must keep the saw moving briskly otherwise the cut will choke. One of these girls would pull the saw and then stop, and then the other would pull and stop, with the result that the saw was always sticking. That is the manner in which they have been sawing for the last five weeks. As to the lupins, that paddock is the boundary of my section also. The girls have been working within 25 ft. or 30 ft. of my house, and within full view of us. I think they commenced this work at the end of December or early in January. Sometimes there have been as many as, twenty girls there. I have seen the girls start from Te Oranga with their little grubbers, which probably weigh 1| lb.—although one of the girls called them pick-axes. With these grubbers and some American axes they started to clear the lupin and broom. They worked very well for a bit, but afterwards they took things very leisurely. They always had an attendant with them, and although often within a few feet of my boundary and sheds, I never heard the attendants driving them in any way, except to simply say " Come, you girls are not getting on. Matron will be round in a short time, and we will have nothing to show her." The result of their work has been to clear about 4 acres of land, as near as I can judge. A very large proportion of the heavy old lupins is rotten, and can be pulled up by the hand. The broom varies from J in. to at the thickest 1| in.; and that is cut with an axe. It is not grubbed. I consider the full value of clearing that would be £1 10s. per acre, so that the extreme value of the work done there would also be £6. If you divide this up amongst the girls you will find that each girl has cleared a plot of three-quarters of a chain square since the Ist of January, working intermittently. I have also seen them gardening. I know the grounds pretty well. They have four plots of garden, the total area being 2| acres. If you divide that amongst the sixty girls it gives a plot of about half a chain to each girl, and I do not think that is in any way excessive. I have never heard the attendants use a cross word—nothing worse than I have stated. I have also always found the attendants very courteous towards each other, and their

H. 21.

W. B. TURNER.

attitude towards each other would have a good moral effect upon the girls. As to the girls, I must say that when I went there I was extremely surprised at their manner. They have excellent behaviour, and I have never heard a wrong expression from them during the time I have been working there, and I have never heard the attendants abuse them or say anything cross to them in any way. In fact, they seem rather pleased to see the attendants come round, to relieve the monotony I suppose, and they commence a little gentle chaff. I have never heard them discuss the Home in any way since I have been there, although they have been working round about me. When they speak to each other it is in modulated tones, and I came to the conclusion that they are exceedingly well trained, and, so far as education went, a credit to their school-mistress. When the Matron does come to them they seem to be in a flutter of delight, and ready to have a little chat with her, and presently perhaps chaff her. I have never heard them say a single word against the Matron. Miss Hunt's name has been brought up frequently, and I wish to relate an incident which came under my own notice. One of the little girls—l found out afterwards she was 15 years of age- —seemed to want a job, and I asked her if she would like to paint the sashes in the conservatory. She said she would be delighted, and I advised her to see if she could get permission to do it. She did so, and worked very industriously, and seemed quite willing to learn all I could teach her, and she did the work remarkably well. One morning Miss Hunt came along and said " Oh, E , you should be in getting ready for school. Besides, you should have your dress covered, as that is the dress you have to go to school in." The little girl was up the ladder, and Miss Hunt seemed ratl*er concerned about her. The little girl got down, and, I suppose, forgot she had left her paint on the top step of the ladder. She commenced to move the ladder, with the result that the paint toppled over and covered her dress and also ran into her boots and over her stockings. All Miss Hunt said was " Now, E , how will we get the paint out of that?" She took the matter in a very pleasant maimer, and never scolded the girl in any way. I suggested remedies. The little girl told me next day she was not coming back to do any more painting because Miss Hunt thought it was better not to risk the same thing again. I thought if it was possible for an attendant to get angry with a child she would have done so under these conditions. When the girls escape from the Home they get into the lupins, which are very dense. I also have a patch of broom, which I have allowed to grow for firewood, and the escapees generally go through my place and out into the reserve, and usually the first notice we get of a runaway is when we see the other girls searching about my premises for her. On one occasion about twelve months ago several girls were about my cowshed, and two remained there. I asked them what they were looking for, and they said, "One of the girls has run away. We fancy we have tracked her through your place, and we are stopping here to see if she comes out," I asked them "What motive have you girls in running away? Are you not well treated?" to which they replied " Oh, yes, we could not be treated better than we are. The Matron and all the attendants are exceedingly kind to us. In Tact, we have no reason to run away at all." I asked, "Then, why do these girls run away?" They said " Oh, well, we do not know, but there are always bad girls in the Home." I asked what would be done to them when they were caught. The girls replied, " They have the runaway dress put on them, so that they will be found, and they are to have their hair cut." I asked what was the motive in cutting the hair. " Oh, the girls are very proud of their hair, and if they know they will have it cut they will do nothing wrong. It has a deterrent effect." They also told me the girls would be put in the cells. I asked them if they would be punished in any other way. They replied " Well, they ought to be, but they are not always, and that is not fair." I pointed out that perhaps the girls ran away under different circumstances, and they said "Oh, yes. Some of the girls run away for bad purposes, and of course in that case if they try to lead other girls astray they are punished," I asked them if the punishment was severe, and they said "No, just the ordinary school-strap. We get plenty of it." I remarked that I supposed they would get that at every school, and they agreed. That was the end of the conversation. In regard to the question of corporal punishment, I would like to say that for some years I was Chairman of one of the State schools and also superintendent" of a Sabbath-school. There were about a hundred children in each. Of course, the cane was used pretty frequently at the day-school, and at the Sabbath-school there was no punishment whatever. One boy in the first class of the Sabbath-school was perfectly uncontrollable. We used every means in our power to show him he was working in the wrong direction and setting a bad example to the whole of the scholars, but he would persist in upsetting the school. I saw the schoolmaster one day, and I asked him how did So-and-so behave to the day-school. He told me he was the best boy in the school. I said that was singular, because he was the worst in the Sabbath-school, and setting a very bad example to the rest. I could only come to the conclusion that the boy was afraid of physical punishment. Physically, he was a coward, and the knowledge that he could be punished in the day-school kept him good. Therefore, in extreme cases I certainly think it is beneficial the strap should be used. James Speight examined on oath. 1. The Commissioner.] What is your occupation?—At present I am farming a little at Shirley, but I am a retired schoolmaster. 2. You are a certificated teacher?— Yes. I worked under the North Canterbury Board for twenty-five years. 3. In large or small schools?— The last was St, Albans. 4. Then you have had considerable experience in teaching?— Yes. I was also a workhouse schoolmaster in the Old Country, so I have had experience with the same classes as you have at Te Oranga. 5. I understand you have no personal knowledge of Te Oranga?—l have very seldom been there. My evidence will be simply in regard to the behaviour of these girls during the last six or seven years at the Burwood Church. These girls go there every Sunday morning.

J. SPEIGHT.]

H.— 2l.

6. Will you please make a statement on any lines you think proper?— First of all, I must say I am a voluntary witness. Nobody has asked me to give evidence. I sit near these girls in church, and I, have every chance of observing their conduct. I must say lam rather critical about the behaviour of people in church generally. I do not think I ever saw better behaviour on the part of anybody in church than the behaviour of these girls. They are not only well behaved and becoming, but they are positively ladylike in their behaviour, and reverent in church. I think their conduct is such as could not have been produced by brutal means, and it proves that there must be a mark of confidence between the attendants and the girls. When they first came their singing was pretty coarse, but now it is most refined, and it is a great assistance to the devotional exercises of the church. That, I maintain, is a mark of refinement. With regard to cutting trees, I believe these girls are so fond of it that they actually offered to cut a neighbour's trees down, and when I saw them going to do the work they seemed quite delighted, and I think the lady for whom they did the work was quite delighted too. As a teacher I quite agree with the evidence of Mr. Patten, that the best reformative treatment for girls with criminal tendencies is plenty of good hard work. As to cutting trees down, lam an old bushman myself, and I know what it is, and I have never wondered that Mr. Gladstone and other people were fond of cutting down trees. I am quite sure the girls like it. 7. Mr. Russell.] Do you know that they offered to cut down a neighbour's trees if he would give them the pears?—lt was a lady in the case I referred to, but I dare say that is so. 8. The. Commissioner.] Did you believe much in corporal punishment when you were a teacher?— Yes. Mr. Salter was my Chairman, and I know I got into hot water two or three times. But I know I took a large school when it was in a very low condition and I left it one of the best schools in Christchurch. 9. What were the ages of the eldest girls you had?— About fifteen or sixteen. 10. Did you strap them?—No, it would not be necessary in a common school. Many a girl I never touched and many a boy too. 11. You would not care to have to do it?—No, not in the case of a big girl. 12. As to hair-cutting, we understand it is not altogether a punishment but a preventative. Have you formed any opinion as to the effect it is likely to have on a girl?—l think it is one of the best things that could be done, because you do not hurt them physically. It is only a matter of shame. 13. You think it would be justifiable? —Yes. I think I should do it myself under similar circumstances. 14. Reverting to corporal punishment, and the case of a girl who has only a few more months to remain in the Home, have you thought whether any benefit morally either to the girl or to the institution is to be derived by corporal punishment?—l think it would very much depend upon her conduct. 15. If a girl reaches the age of twenty without being reformed, and is still needing corporal punishment even for the short time she has to remain in the institution, it is not very hopeful, and you would not think the punishment would have much effect? —No, I think not. 16. And might have a brutalising tendency ?—Yes. 17. You agree with me in that?— Possibly. Tuesday, 10th March, 1908. Jane Bean examined on oath. 1. Mr. Salter.] You are the wife of the Rev. Walter Bean? —Yes. 2. You have a Te Oranga girl named A G—— in your service?— Yes. 3. Licensed ?—-Yes, to my husband. 4. Has she been long in your employ?— Four months. 5. During that time have you noticed anything strange about her conduct?—No; her conduct has been very good since I have had her. 6. Any symptoms of violence?— None whatever. 7. You are quite satisfied with her? —Yes, as to her conduct and her work. 8. Have you sent in periodical reports to the Department concerning the girl?— Since the girl has been with me I have never been asked anything either by the Department or the manager about the girl. I have been satisfied with the girl, and I suppose the Department have not taken any further interest in her. 9. Had you any difficulty in getting the girl?— Yes, considerable. 10. Do you remember when you first asked for her?— Yes; I first asked for her about twelve months last June. I happened to meet Mrs. Branting in Freeman's. 11. What took place between you and Mrs. Branting then?—l was wanting a girl, and was not looking to help a Te Oranga girl, and Miss Early had told me she had a girl who would suit me very well, but that she was under the control of Te Oranga authorities. So when I met Mrs. Branting accidentally I asked her about A , and I then got such a dreadful account of her that, like Mr. Sorensen, I dropped the matter. 12. Later on did you apply for her again?— Yes. I formally applied to the Minister about the 14th September and asked him how to set about getting the- girl out. My reason for doing so was that Miss Early still thought the girl all right, 13. Why did you alter your opinion about the girl?— Miss Early, of whose judgment i thought a good deal, as she was generally right on other occasions, insisted that the girl simply wanted a chance, and had not got one at Te Oranga, and that if I took her she would do all right. Miss Early said if she did not turn out all right they would be willing to take her back to the Samaritan Home, so I accordingly wrote to Mr. Fowlds.

H.—2l.

[J. BEAN.

14. Did you have any interview with Mr. Pope about the girl about this time?—l went lo Wellington shortly afterwards, and I saw Mr. Pope at the office there. The first news Mr. Pope gave me was that the girl was illegitimate. I said that did not matter. Then he said, "You know her mother died in an asylum." I said I was sure Mrs. Branting had told me that, but it did not follow that it was hereditary, but that what had influenced me was the girl's immorality. 15. You had that story from Mr. Pope?—He did not mention the immorality; that was Mrs. Branting. Mr. Pope also said the girl would be twenty next April, and I said I thought she would be twenty-one in June. He said they had records to prove what he said, but I told him I thought he was wrong. 16. After you came back from Wellington, did you see Mrs. Branting?—No. 17. Did you let her know you had seen Mr. Pope?— Yes; I rang her up. 1 had told Mr. Pope that Mrs. Branting would not recommend the girl for service, and I asked him, " What about Miss Early's report?" He told me that, as a rule, they were guided entirely by their manager, but that in this case they would see what they could do. He made no actual promise, but I inferred from him that if Miss Early wrote a fair report about the girl there would be no difficulty. I told Mrs. Branting that. 18. Did Mrs. Branting seem in any way put out at your having arranged this matter behind her back?— No. I told her directly I came back. 19. Matron Early sent her report?— Yes. I was waiting for the girl, and I found it very inconvenient, so I hurried her up. She told me she had sent her report to Mrs. Branting on Tuesday morning. I waited some days, hoping to hear from the Department, and then I rang Mrs. Branting up on the following Monday, and asked about Miss Early's report, and she said there was no word yet from Wellington. I said that was strange. She said, "I am writing-to-night, and I will remind them," I said that in the meantime, as I was in a hurry, I would wire. I sent a wire to Mr. Crow, and got a reply that they were awaiting Miss Early's report. That rather nonplussed me, and I rang Mrs. Branting up, and then discovered the report had not been sent until she said she was writing that night, and would remind the Department, So she had kept the report from Tuesday afternoon or Wednesday morning until the following Monday afternoon. Meanwhile Mrs. Branting had told me she would send the report up without comment, as she would be glad to be done with the gili, or words to that effect, 20. Did Mrs. Branting express any wish to you that the girl should not go out to service until she was twenty-one ?—At our first interview she said if she had her way the girl would not go out until she was twenty-one, or words to that effect, 21. You said in your letter to the Minister that was read the other day, " And I do not think the country will suffer in the way she coarsely suggested " : Can you tell us what you meant by that?—lf I have to explain it, it is this: When I told Mrs. Branting I was still willing to take the girl I said to her, " Well, Mrs. Branting, supposing the girl is not all we think she might be, if the girl does not suit me I will return her to you." Mrs. Branting said, "Yes, if she is there." I asked where would she be. I said if the girl ran away I supposed I could ring up the police. Mrs. Branting replied, " Before you could get her there would probably be a few bastards in the world." Those were the words. I remember them distinctly, because they were words I was not accustomed to hear. 22. Was the doubt about the girl's age ever inquired into to your satisfaction?— When the Department saw I was persistent, and intended having it seen into, Mr. Pope came down and saw me. I asked what about her age, and he said they would say no more about it, because it was a mistake. Neither was she illegitimate. I had pointed out to the Minister she was not illegitimate. 23. You never discovered anything untruthful about the girl?—No; the girl since she has been with me has been truthful. 24. I think you were in the room the other day when a letter from A G to Mrs. Branting was read, containing some very affectionate terms: knowing what you do about the girl, can you account for her writing such a letter? —Oh, yes. When the girl came back to me the second time she was overwhelmed with, the kindness she had received at Te Oranga that fortnight. She told me it had atoned for all that had happened before. I was not surprised to hear she had sent that letter, because that is just what I would have expected her to do. She told me she wanted to forget everything that had happened, and was quite willing to forgive Mrs. Branting, because she had since been kind to her. She told me the Matron had taken her to tea at Broadway's, and had given her milk for her supper, because she was not very well—a thing she had never had before. I encouraged the girl to forget any bitterness towards Mrs. Branting and have done so all along. 25. She received this kindness during the fortnight she was there? —Yes; when she was sent back from the Samaritan Home. 26. Can you suggest any explanation of Mrs. Branting keeping back that report, as she said, for a week?—l cannot explain Mrs. Branting's methods. I only know it was kept back. The explanation she gave me was that Mr. Pope was coming down, and she wanted to talk it over with him. I suppose she talked it over with Mr. Pope so much that I had to bring more pressure to get the girl released. 27. Do you think that, probably if you had not made a persistent effort to get the girl and give her a chance she would have been kept at Te Oranga ?—I am quite sure about that, although Mrs. Branting said to me during that fortnight if she did not come to me she would get the girl a nice place. But nothing of that sort was spoken of at the beginning. I was told the girl would be kept until she was twenty-one. The suggestion of immorality influenced me more than anything else, on account of the children. I asked Mrs. Branting if she" was sure of what she said, and she told me she could produce letters from a friend or relative in the country who had invited A to go up there for some bad purpose. I could not understand it, I asked Miss Early about that, and said I did not want any misunderstanding. Miss Early said she had seen a good deal of

H.— 2l.

J. BEAN.,

the girl, and had seen nothing to lead her to think there was any immorality whatever. I asked why the girl had been committed? Was it for immoral reasons' She said, "No; for theft." 28. Did Nurse Early always speak well of the girl?— Yes. It was really my husband who first thought of the girl, and then we asked Miss Early. 29. The Commissioner.] You heard Miss Early's evidence? —Yes, and it was quite true. 30. Mr. Russell.] It. was in June you wanted a servant first? —Yes. 31. So your action was not so much with a view of helping this girl as to get a domestic?—ln the first instance, it was to get a domestic. 32. And you did not get her until the 9th November, that being the date on which Mrs. Branting writes, " I am instructed to license A- G to you "?—That was after I had all the bother. 33. So you were looking for a servant from June until November?—No; I dropped her on Mrs. Branting's first report, 34. Had you a servant at the time when you first interested yourself in the girl at the Samaritan Home?—ln June my old servant got married. 35. About September you began to think, from what you had been told, that Mrs. Branting was wrong?—l had another girl, but I was not satisfied with her, and I thought I would be wanting a girl. Miss Early insisted she was right in regard to A and I decided I would take her. 36. Then you came into contest with Mrs. Branting?—No; I saw Mr. Pope. 37. You knew Mrs. Branting was behind, advising the girl should not be sent? —I do not know, but I inferred it, 38. You knew on the 23rd October, from a letter the Department wrote you, that Mrs. Branting was the person behind the refusal? —Yes. 39. Then, instead of looking for another girl, you were determined to have this girl, by hook or by crook? —Not by hook or by crook. I was interested in the girl herself, and I said I would go on with it, 40. You knew Mrs. Branting had said the girl should go to Te Oranga, and you were determined the girl should not?— Quite so; but before this I had written to the Minister in the girl's own interest. 41. I may take it that from the 23rd October you were determined the girl should not go to Te Oranga Home?—l determined then the girl should get justice. 42. From that date it became a conflict between you and Mrs. Branting, not directly, but through the Department?— Yes. 43. You put letters in motion to override Mrs. Branting?—Yes. 44. Are you satisfied that Mrs. Branting, in acting as she did, did what was right in the circumstances?—No, I think she was prejudiced against, the girl. 45. You do not know what Mrs. Branting knows about the girl?—l cannot very well. 46. Did you ever ask Mrs. Branting to give you a full account of what she knew? —I asked her in the first instance. It was no good going back after what she told me. 47. Did she tell you anything about Quail Island? —No, she never mentioned it. A- has told me about it. 48. Rightly or wrongly, if Mrs. Branting was of opinion that the girl was the ringleader in what took place at Quail Island, in consequence of which the girls had to be brought back, could you blame her for not wanting the girl to go out?—l do not think anything of Mrs. Branting's opinion about that, because I was convinced she was wrong right through. 49. Do. you mean that the facts as to what happened at Quail Island did not exist? —I know nothing about what happened there. 50. Do you know that assignations were made by this and other girls with men on that occasion ?—I would not believe it of A G . I know nothing about the other girls. 51. Does this girl speak well or ill now of Te Oranga Home?— She is divided by her experiences there. Before she went to the Samaritan Home and to the Mental Hospital her experiences were harrowing. For the fortnight she was back, and they knew I was communicating with Wellington, her treatment was absolutely different, and if she had only been treated with the same kindness in the first instance, I do not think she would ever have given any trouble. 52. She had been in the Samaritan Home, and was well behaved then. The discipline was less severe? —Yes, and it suited her very well. 53. One opinion Mrs. Branting held was that yours was a very hard place for this girl, who is not strong physically. Is yours a hard place?—l do not think so. You had better ask the girl. 54. I will read this from a letter written on the 27th November from your place : " Dear Matron, —I have a very hard place, but I like my mistress and master very much "?—That is about a week or a fortnight after she came. 55. I will read another dated the 9th December: " Dear Matron, —Your letter came to hand last Thursday. I was very pleased to hear from you and Maple. I was going to write straight away, but I have been too busy. Dear Matron, lam glad to say lam feeling much better and stronger, and I feel more able to do the work, although I have plenty of work to do, and I am hardly ever finished. You see, Matron, I was not very well when I came here, and I was so very depressed and miserable I used to go to bed tired and get up in the morning just as tired —in fact, more tired. -Night after night I never closed my eyes in sleep. Dear Matron, lam very sorry I shall not be able, to meet you in town this week, for I am getting the whole day on Wednesday, and lam going home for the day. I had my sister in to see me to-day, and she said she would not like the washing and the ironing I have got to do here. I have been going since 5 this morning, and it is now 8, and I have just finished, and I have a hot supper to get ready for Miss Seddon, who is coming to-night. We are having a great day next Sunday week here." The girl evidently seems to think her place hard? —When the girl came to me she was in bad health.

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She had not been sleeping at Te Oranga, and I advised her to take more rest. However, she was at liberty to leave. 56. If Mrs. Branting thought your place too hard for the girl ?•—Mrs. Branting knew nothing about my place. If she did, why did she not give me that reason, instead of telling me all those other things against the girl ? 57. You have seen the Rev. Mr. Fendall's letter in the papers : were you aware before that letter came out that it was to be published? —Yes. Mr. Fendall got that information from our house. A G examined on oath. 1. Mr. Salter.] You are in service with Mrs. Bean ?—Yes. 2. Do you remember how old you were when you were committed to Te Oranga Home?—l was seventeen years and nine months. 3. Mr. Russell.] How do you know your age?— Because the Magistrate said if I was three months older I could not be committed. 4. Who was the Magistrate?— Mr. Bishop. 5. Mr. Salter.] I find by the records you were committed in March, 1905. How long were you in Te Oranga Home the first time?—l am not certain. I think about thirteen months. 6. What kind of treatment did you receive at the Home from March, 1906—that is, two years from now —up till the time you left? —I think I was in the Mental Hospital in March, 1906. 7. During the latter part of your stay in the Home, what sort of treatment did you receive? — Not good treatment at all, 8. What, work had you to do?— Chopping and sawing and mauling and digging in the garden, which I found very hard. 9. In felling the trees, had you to chop at the base of the trees? —Yes; I used to help the other girls. 10. You had to use wedges and mauls in splitting?— Yes; I was using them the Friday before I was committed to the Mental Hospital. 11. Did you ever complain to the Matron that the work was too hard? —It was no use. I did so once, and I was thumped on the back, and told I was always complaining. 12. By whom were you thumped on the back? —By the Matron. 13. Did you make any honest endeavour to do your duty there?—l did. I tried very hard to be good, but the harder I tried the more everything went against me, and the more the staff growled at me. When I tried hard to please them, and thought I was pleasing them, I found I was displeasing them, 14. And you were discouraged?— Yes, very much discouraged. 15. Were you satisfied with the food you got there? —Not at all, especially in the winter. We used to put grease on the saw, and Us girls felt more like eating it than placing it on the saw. 16. Had you not sufficient breakfast?— Neither breakfast, dinner, nor tea. 17. Did you ever complain to the Matron about the food not being sufficient? —No, not once. Many times we have eaten raw artichokes because we were hungry, and we have picked up carrots in the same way, and have been called " dirty pigs " because we have eaten them when hungry. 18. In the winter, did you hang out the clothes?— One winter A B and I were made to hang out the clothes in our bare feet, when there was snow on the ground. 19. And in washing the clothes, did you have warm water or cold?— Even in the winter we had cold water. We would get half a bucket of lukewarm water, and be made to fill our tubs with cold water, and then they would growl at us if the clothes were not clean. 20. Did you find the work there fitted you for domestic service? —It was work that unfitted us to take service in a gentleman's house. 21. You were baptised there?— Yes, and also confirmed, and took my first communion there. 22. You made up your mind then you would be exemplary in your conduct?— Yes; I made up my mind I would turn over a new leaf, and I could not. Why, the first night after that, in the dormitory, there was not a murmur. We were not allowed to talk. Suddenly the door opened, and Miss Mills put her head in and said, " A G , you are talking," when I had not been saying a word. I said, "Miss Mills, excuse me, I was not talking." I said it was.always the same. It was always me they jumped upon. I was taken from bed only in my nightgown, and marched down and put in the bucket cupboard, and left there from 8 to 10, and it was freezing hard that night. 23. Miss Mills put you there?— Yes. 24. Do you know whether she spoke to the Matron before doing so? —I do not know. The Matron never said anything to me about it. 25. When girls express a desire to leave the Home and go to service, are they encouraged? — They are accused of bad motives. 26. What is said to them? —The Matron said, " If I thought you girls were anxious to get to service and do well I would put you there, but I think otherwise." That meant we wanted to lead a bad life. 27. When the Matron spoke of your faults, did she do it privately?—No, in front of all the girls. 28. When did she generally do this?— Generally before taking prayers. 29. Sometimes there were men working at Te Oranga?—Yes, when the schoolhouse was being built. 30. Were the girls accused of any desire to talk to these men?— There was no desire on the girls' part, but they were constantly being shown up by the staff in front of them. The men heard the staff calling, " Here, I will see you go to the cell to-night " ; and, " It will be dry bread for you," and so on. They made us girls seem very small.

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31. You sometimes looked out of the window when the men were at work : What was said to you then?— That we were trying to attract their attention. On one occasion two girls were looking out. of the dormitory window at the men below, and they were accused of signalling to the men. After dinner the Matron came over and said to Miss Mcintosh, " Put these two girls outside, and give them chopping to do, and it will take the superfluous energy out of them." 32. Have you ever seen the Matron boxing girls' ears?— Many a time, but she has never boxed mine. 33. Has she ever called you any names that were disagreeable? —Yes; on one occasion she called me and another girl " great big hulking hulls." 34. It is said you were violent at the Home?— Yes, but not without cause. 35. Tell us what caused you to be?— The constant nagging day after day was enough to rouse the temper of anybody. 36. You were sent some time ago to the Mental Hospital?— Yes, in February, 1906. 37. How long were you there? —Six weeks. 38. Whilst you were at the Mental Hospital, did you write to the Matron?— Yes, I remember writing her a very impudent letter from the Mental Hospital, and for that I got thumped on the back and growled at when I got back to Te Oranga. 39. Did the Matron make any remark to you about your madness? —She often said to the girls I was no madder than she was. 40. Did she tell you what Dr. Gow had advised she should do?— She said that I was to be put under a cold shower when I gave way to these passions. 41. I would like to read to you the whole of the letter you wrote to Mrs. Branting from Mrs. Bean's, and from which Mr. Russell quoted the other day: " Addington, Friday night.—My Dear Matron, —I rang you up to-night, for I wanted to say a lot to you, but I had not the chance. My dear Matron, you perhaps think Ido not care for you, but that is not so. Your kindness to me in the short time I was back in the Home has atoned for all the past—what has been said and what has not. I look back over these last few weeks, and think what has been going on for the sake of a chance of service for me. Has not there been some awful wicked things said about me. Picture it, Matron, for yourself. Is it not enough to make one do something desperate to themselves? But no, Matron, God has given me strength to overlook it all. Is not all that has been told to me of what you have said about me —was it not enough to make me dislike you? But I don't doubt your word, but who am Ito believe? If you did say anything, I freely forgive you. I want you all to forget what has passed this last month. But I will never forget as long as I live. ' Dear Matron, I don't wish to feel any ill will against you. "We are not placed here to be enemies, but to be at charity with every one. Dear Matron, I have not a place to go to. I looked forward to coming up to see you all. Perhaps, Matron, you would rather I did not come up at all. But what is the reason you don't want me to come for a month? Well, Matron, you can put your full confidence in me, for if all the girls turn out as well as I intend to do they will be a credit to you. lam not boasting over what I have said. Well, Matron, just a few lines about my mistress and place. I have got a very nice place and a very kind mistress and master, and the girls are very kind and very willing to do anything for me. I have plenty of work to do. Dear Matron, if you won't let me come to the Home you surely won't refuse to write to me and tell me the news. Give my love to all the first-class girls, especially to M and G . I remain, Yours, &c, A. G .— Sweet dreams. Do write.—P.S.—Mrs. Bean would like you to come and see me. She said she had no ill feeling against you. She wanted justice, and she has got it, and she is content." Did that refer to Mrs. Branting's treatment of you during your first stay in the Home?—No, to the last fortnight, after I came from the Samaritan Home. 42. When you went back to the Home, were you treated very well? —Very well indeed. In fact, if all the girls were treated as I was, there would be no complaint. I was treated to afternoon tea, and taken to Broadway's. I had hot milk for supper. But, putting all that on one side, I was always greeted with a smile, and treated with kindness. If all the girls were treated the same, they would respect the Matron, and do anything for her. 43. If you had received treatment like that during your first stay, would you have been content to stay?— Yes, quite content, 44. Do you know any reason why the girls should not be treated in that way? —I do not. Kindness costs nothing, and kindness goes a long way. 45. Did you see Mr. Fendal about what was going on?— Yes; I told him about the strapping and the hair-cutting. 46. Mr. Smail used to visit the Home, and hold service there?— Yes; every Sunday afternoon. 47. Do you know whether, from anything that has been said to you and the other girls, he knew of your faults? —I am certain the Matron used to tell him anything that happened amongst the girls. On one occasion when two girls had attempted to run away, and had been found in the laundry, he came and said it was a sorry thing a girl's passion should get the better of her, and that if she wanted to go to the dogs it was time enough to go when she was twenty-one. 48. It is said you made some attempt to take your life at the Home? —Yes, I did; but I never attempted to take other lives, of which I have been accused. I felt I could no longer endure life and the constant growling. 49. That is what drove you to do what you did?— Certainly. 50. Whilst you were at the Samaritan Home and attempts were being made to get you back to Te Oranga, do you know that the "Black Maria" was sent for you?— Yes; I heard it was the Matron's doings. 51. Mr. Russell.] I understand that the last time you left the Home you came away with the highest possible feeling of affection for Mrs. Branting?—Yes.

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52. That is evidenced in your letter? —Yes. 53. Have you been with Mrs. Branting since?—l met her not very long ago. 54. Have you the same feeling to-day for her? —Yes, because I wish to bear no ill feeling against the Matron. 55.. In the letter which has just been read you say, "If all the girls turn out as well as I intend to, they will be a credit to you " : Were you referring to the training during the last fortnight or the training you received there generally?—l was not only referring to the training, but I had made a firm resolve to be good and do well. I was not referring to the training I received at the Home. 56. You do not think the training you received there helped you to make that resolve?—l do not think it helped me very much. 57. What do you think has helped you? —I do not see much has helped. 58. But you are a better girl than when you went to Te Oranga?—Not at all. 59. Rightly or wrongly, you were charged with being an immoral girl when you went there?— Never. 60. Was that true or not?— Quite untrue. That is not one of my faults. 61. Then you were thieving before you went there? —Certainly. 62. You mean you are better now?— That taught me a lesson. 63. You do not tell lies now?— Certainly not. 64. You would not deceive anybody? —No, I would not. 65. Not under any circumstances? —No. 66. You are quite sure of that? —Yes. 67. This is a letter you wrote from Mrs. Bean's house on the 27th November. I will read a passage from it: "I went over to the Samaritan Home this afternoon, and the Matron and Miss Osborn asked me how I was getting on. I told them I was getting on, and felt much brighter. I, of course, have to deceive them. I went upstairs, and I was telling the girls what a hard place I had." What do you mean by that, if you would not deceive anybody?—l do not remember writing those words. 68. Did you try to deceive these people or did you not?— When I first went there I told Mrs. Bean myself I would never manage the work. 69. You said you would not tell lies, or would not deceive anybody, and I ask you how you reconcile that statement with what you said to these people about two months ago?—[No answer.] 70. You cannot account for that? —[No answer.] 71. Whom have you seen about this case besides Mrs. Bean?—l saw the Rev. Mr. Fendall. 72. In what part of the house did you see Mr. Fendall?—ln Mr. Bean's dining-room. 73. Who asked you to go in and see him?— Nobody; I was clearing the table. 74. And what happened?—l told the Rev. Fendall. I thought it was only my duty to do so. 75. Did any one ask you to tell him?— Certainly not. 76. You were a servant in the house, and he was a guest in the dining-room, and you suddenly thought of telling him what? —Of the flogging and hair-cutting that was going on at Te Oranga. 77. Why?— Because my heart went out to the poor girls when I left there. I had had somebody to help me in my trouble, and I thought I would do what I could. 78. How did you think Mr. Fendall could help you?—l thought his position could help. I would have told Mr. Bean the same, but I knew he had had enough trouble. 79. You told Mr. Fendall with a view to giving the matter publicity ?—No ; I thought he would do something to have it stopped. 80. You never had but one strapping? —Yes, over two years ago. 81. There are fifty or sixty girls at Te Oranga?—Yes. 82. Can you tell me how many were strapped when you were there? —A good few. 83. Would you be astonished to know that only about half a dozen girls have been strapped at all? —I should think more than that. 84. Can you think of any more?—l know four girls were strapped in the fortnight I was back from the Samaritan Home. 85. What for? —I think, for trying to abscond. Five, including myself, were strapped the week I was. 86. Who else have you seen besides the Rev. Mr. Fendall—Mr. Fountain? —Yes. I visited Mr. Fountain's house. 87. How did you come to go there"?—l had my teeth done there, and I knew Mrs. Fountain. 88. You told him all about it?— Certainly I did. 89. You have seen Mr. Salter?—Yes, once. 90. Any one else? —Nobody else. 91. No reporters?— No. 92. Your complaints are, first, about the tree-cutting —that that was very hard work?— Yes. 93. How many trees did you help to cut down? —Three or, at the outside, four. 94. In the twelve months? —Yes. 95. Were you working at tree-cutting all the time? —No. 96. How many months were you tree-cutting out of the twelve?—We would work a day, and then be three or four days off. 97. How many girls were cutting them down?— Generally three or four at the cutting-down. 98. And the others doing what? —Other work until the rope was on the tree. Then all would help to pull it down. 99. Is it not a fact that the girls as a whole rather like the tree-pulling business? —Some may. 100. Did they not scream with laughter when doing this? —I never heard them. They would squeal and run away as the tree came down,

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101. Did you ever ask the Matron to come and take a turn with the saw?— No. 102. Did you ever ask Miss Hunt to come and take a turn? —No, I never heard it. 103. Did the Matron come out sometimes to see how the girls were getting on? —Sometimes. 104. Were the girls pleased to see her?— Some of her favourites may have been. 105. You were not a favourite? —No. 106. But you were a favourite when you went there the second time? —I was made a favourite. 107. You had improved a good deal before you went there the second time? —Yes; Matron Early's training had done me a lot of good. 108. You had a violent temper? —Yes, I had. 109. Not now?—No; there is no reason to have it ruffled now. 110. You quarrelled not only with the staff, but with the girls themselves?— Yes. 111. They teased you a lot?— Yes; they tantalised me. 112. Before you went to the Mental Hospital your temper was almost unbearable? —Twice 1 hit a girl. 113. You were sent to the Asylum on the certificate of the Magistrate and two medical men? —Yes. 114. Are you aware that later on the Matron was the person who got you to the Samaritan Home?-—I knew that. She thought there was not so much discipline there, and that it would do me good. 115. Did she not tell you the girls teased, you too much, and also that you were neither physically nor mentally strong enough to stand the discipline of the Home?—l do not remember her telling me that. I remember her telling me she had written to the Department stating the discipline of the Home was too hard for me. 116. Was the Matron not working in your interests to say that? —I do not think so. She ■would have done better to have given me a chance at service. 117. You think she was not fair towards you in not giving you this chance. I understand you forgave all this? —Yes. 118. Why are you going into it now?—l did not know you were going to accuse me of being illegitimate until I heard it on Friday afternoon. 119. You said the food was not good. Did you ever tell the Matron you had not enough to eat?— No. 120. Did you ever tell the doctor? —No. 121. Did the other fifty or sixty girls have to eat artichokes too?-—Yes, often. 122. Do you mean to say the Government did not provide sufficient food for the girls at Te Oranga ?—Not in the winter. 123. Which meal were you short of?— All meals. 124. The other girls have not said that? —I found it so. 125. Was the food of a kind you could eat?— Sometimes it was of a kind that would not bear eating. 126. Can you give us an instance of something bad?— The artichokes were often put on the table burnt and blackened. 127. When did the Matron thump you on the back? —On one occasion when I went to her. She thumped me on the back, and said I was always complaining. 128. How long were you at Te Oranga after you came from the Mental Hospital before you went to the Samaritan Home?—l really cannot say. It was only a short time. 129. You were still quarrelsome and bad tempered when you came back?— Yes, after being back awhile. 130. You had delusions before a\id after your stay in the Mental Hospital?—l do not think afterwards. 131. On one occasion you said you had neither breakfast, dinner, nor tea?—l said that not enough food was given us at these meals. 132. Did any of the other girls have the same idea about not having enough food for breakfast?— Often. 133. Tell me the name of any girl who said on any occasion that not enough food was given her either for breakfast, dinner, or tea ?—A C was with me one day. She said she had not had enough to eat, and felt like eating grass. 134. Mr. Salter.] Were you ever placed in the cell? —On several occasions, but not for long periods. 135. How many hours at a time?— Generally not exceeding four or five hours. 136. During these four or five hours, were you visited by any one?— No. I was put in and left until I was taken out. I have been there the whole evening, and no one near me. 137. Mr. Pope.] Did you speak to Mr. Fendall before you spoke to Mr. Fountain?— Yes. 138. And you told him of the strapping and the hair-cutting?—l did. 139. Did you ever see a girl's hair cut at Te Oranga as a punishment?—l did. I saw H——• M getting her hair cut off. 140. Mr. Russell.] This letter of the 27th November, from which I quoted, is your letter? —Yes. Elizabeth Howden examined on oath. 1. Mr. Salter.] When were you engaged to go to Te Oranga?—ln July of last year. 2. By whom were you engaged? —Mrs. Branting. 3. In what capacity? —Clerk. 4. Was anything said at the time of your engagement about acting as relieving attendant? —Yes. Mrs. Branting said that occasionally she would call upon me to do a little attendant's duties, and this I agreed to. She pointed out it might be such as going down the line to meet a girl

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coming from Caversham, or to take a girl to the Hospital or to and from a situation, ami that when the staff had their holidays I should be called upon to help and relieve. 5. But your principal work, was to be in the office? —Yes. 6. When you got to Te Oranga to begin your duties, did you find that Mrs. Branting expected you to act really as an attendant? —After she had engaged me she said, "Probably you would like to relieve Miss Hunt every other week, and that will enable you to have a long lie-in the following week." I said I might like it, but after thinking it over when I went there I said to the Matron I would not care about doing it, because I should not be able to stand it in the cold, and that I would rather get up at the usual time every morning and go into the office. Mrs. Branting said she could not possibly do that, because she had made the arrangement with Miss Hunt, and she asked me not to say anything about what I would do or would not do. She said I would find the work very light indeed, and asked me to go on and see. 7. That was when you first went down?— Yes, on the 21st July. 8. But she did nqt tell you that when she engaged you?— She talked about it, but I did not trouble much because it was optional. 9. And when you got there you found she expected it, and that there was no option about it?— Yes, it was put upon me as part of my duty. 10. And you objected?—l really did not object. I was practically pushed into it, and, as I was to be relieved of it at the end of six months, I continued doing it. 11. You were in the Home about six months?— Yes. 12. I believe in last September you were taken ill with influenza?— Yes. The Matron had gone up country that morning, and did not know I was ill until she got back that night. In the meantime the staff and Miss Harrison thought I should have a doctor, and Dr. Mikle was called in. 13. You did not get up that day at all?—No, I could not. 14. What did the Matron say when she knew about it?— She laughed at the idea of having a doctor because I had influenza, 15. Did Dr. Mikle ever see the other attendants about your case?— Yes; Miss Hunt generally attended to me, and he gave her instructions about medicines, and so on. 16. Who attended you and gave you this medicine? —Miss Hunt at first, and then she sent one of the inmates named E B . She was the girl on my room. 17. On the 21st I believe you were much worse?— Yes. The doctor thought I was very ill. He said I should have to have a nurse, and he had some difficulty in getting one, but eventually Nurse Page was sent down. 18. Do you know whether he spoke to the Matron about having an attendant nurse you that night? —Yes. He told her I was very ill, and must have some one with me during the night. He told me the Matron said, of course, none of the staff could attend to me as they had their duties to perform. Really, I did not expect them to, because they have to work very hard. 19. Do you know where the Matron and Miss Hunt went that night you were so ill?— They went to the theatre. 20. On the 22nd you were taken to a private hospital?— Yes, where I was laid up for a fortnight. 21. Were you better on the 22nd? —Yes, very much. 22. Dr. Mikle was asked the other day whether you were able to dress yourself and walk down the passage : were you able to do these things for yourself?—No, I was assisted. 23. And the nurse and doctor both went with you to the hospital?— Yes. 24. What happened between you and the Matron when you returned home after your illness ? —She was just going out, but she said she would wait for another tram. She said, " Well, Miss Howden, I like you very much, and I like your work, but if you are a delicate person this institution is no place for you, and it would be better for you to give it up now than later on, when probably it will be more inconvenient for me." 25. What reply did you make to that?—l replied I was not the only one who had had influenza, and that I was not delicate. 26. Ordinarily you felt quite equal to the work? —Yes, I was quite equal to the work I was engaged for, but not for standing out in the morning doing cow work. 27. Did Mrs. Branting make any remark about your salary whilst you were ill?— Yes; she said the Department would deduct from my salary the time I was away ill, but they did not. 28. Did she say this matter had. been mentioned to Mr. Walker?— Yes; that Mr. Walker said I would have to look upon the time I was away as part of my holiday at the end of the year. Mr. Walker visited the Home later on, and I asked him about it, and he denied it, and said the M.atron had never spoken to him about it, and that that was the first time he knew I had been ill, and that as a matter of fact it did not come under his department. 29. Some few days after you returned to the Home, was anything said about other duties? — Yes. The Matron spoke of putting me on to do attendant's work every afternoon. She said the girls were very troublesome, and needed a great deal of supervision. She talked about it at the table, and, as we walked up the passage after dinner, I mentioned it again and said, " Well, but when am I going to do my office-work? " She remarked, "Blow office-work. It can go. The girls are more important." 30. You were present at meal-times with the staff? —Yes. 31. What used to happen then? —The subject of conversation was not agreeable. 32. What was it about?—lt was all appertaining to the morals of the girls and their mode of living, and the condition of their health. 33. The Matron was present? —Yes. 34. Did you object to her? —I did on one occasion, and she agreed with me it was very disagreeable.

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35. It continued, or did it end?—lt still continued. 36. Did you give any information to the Rev. Mr. Fendall or to any one else about the Home?—No; I have never given anybody any information. I do not know Mr. Fendall, and have never seen him. I know lam accused of the whole trouble in reference to this inquiry into Te Oranga; but I never knew anything about the inquiry until some days after I left. I did not even know of any trouble about the visit to E S in the Hospital. 37. Did you yourself write any anonymous letters, or cause any to be written, about that girl? —No, I have never written any anonymous letter or been a party to one. 38. W r as it the Matron's practice to box the girls' ears whilst you were at the Home? —1 have seen her do so. She came into the workroom one day when, I think, A C was there. I know it was one of the bigger girls. I took particular notice, because I had never seen anyone using both hands before. 39. The Commissioner.] You mean in boxing both ears?— Yes, first one hand and then the other. 40. Mr. Salter.] Was that the Matron? —Yes. I did not know anything had happened until presently I heard a noise, and then I walked out of the room. 41. Was it a matter of notoriety amongst the staff that the Matron was in the habit of boxing the girls' ears ?—I think the staff all know it. 42. Was the Matron in the habit of discussing some members of the staff with other members? —Yes ; she does discuss one staff with another unfavourably. 43. Can you mention any particular instance? —She has discussed Miss Mills with me when 1 was only a few weeks in the Home. She said if she could replace her she would get rid of her, as Miss Mills was not truthful, and did not speak the truth about the girls. 44. Can you say anything about any injustice to the girls as practised by the Matron? —Of course, I thought it was unjust to punish girls when she knew Miss Mills did not speak the truth about them, or to allow Miss Mills to punish them. 45. Is it the practice at the Home for members of the staff to put girls in the cell and otherwise punish them without reference to the Matron ?—They generally do it. 46. Do you know whether the girls are visited, periodically, according to the regulations, when in the cell? —They are not visited according to the regulation. Ido know on one occasion Miss Mills put a girl in the cell at 10 in the morning and forgot all about her until the girl attracted our attention by knocking on the wall. That would be when we were having tea at about a quarter to 6. Miss Mills admitted she had forgotten her. The girl had no dinner. 47. Then she was in the cell from 10 a.m. until 6 p.m. without being visited ?—Yes; she had been forgotten. 48. Did the Matron pass any remark about your kindness to the girls?— Yes; she said 1 was too kind to the girls; that they did not appreciate it, and only treated kindness as a weakness. 49. You know E S ?—Yes, she was brought back from Timaru whilst I was at the Home. 50. Did you see her the day she returned?— No. She came back on the 7th, On the evening of the Bth she was strapped, and on the 9th her cell-door, opposite my office-window, was open. I did not see her until then. 51. Did the Matron tell you what state of health she was in?— The Matron said she was very ill, and had been practically starved for a fortnight. 52. Although that was her opinion, she strapped her? —Yes. 53. You remember a girl known as L R ?—Yes. 54. Do you remember when this girl was struck off your books?— Yes, on the Ist of last September. The Matron did want to keep her on a little longer, as she thought it might be better for her sake, and she spoke about it to Mr. Pope, who immediately said she must be written off the books. 55. Was that when the girl came of age?— Yes. 56. Did you tell L R she was twenty-one? —No, I did not. The Matron did not want her to know. Her sister wrote and told her. I met L in town one day, and asked if she had been to the Home to-day. She said No, that she was very angry with the Matron, and after a while she told me she had had a letter from her sister saying she was twenty-one. 57. Why did not the Matron want her to know?— She thought it would be better for her not to know for a little while longer, to keep her under her control. 58. Are you aware that she had been licensed out since she came of age?— Yes, I made out a license for her to Mrs. Aitken. » 59. Mr. Russell.] When you came to the Home you practically say you were under a false belief as to your duties —that whereas you were engaged as a clerk, you were turned into an attendant? —I was engaged as a clerk, yes. 60. And instead of doing.clerical work you were compelled to do attendants' work? —Yes, I relieved occasionally. 61. Had you much clerking work to do? —I had all the clerking that had to be done. 62. Was it enough to keep you going? —I always found it enough. 63. And you objected from the start to being turned into an attendant? —No; I agreed to do it for six months. 64. But under protest, as it were?—No; I agreed willingly to relieve occasionally for six months. 65. Did you like that part of the work? —Yes, it was very interesting. I did not like the cow work in the morning, and it was not my duty. 66. I think soon after you came to the Home you had to go to Timaru? —Yes. I was away for a fortnight.

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67. Mrs. Branting put no obstacle in the way of your going?—-No, she was very kind, and allowed me to go. 68. Then she telegraphed you at the end of a fortnight to resume your duties? —She wrote to me. I had informed her my sister was no better. 69. Then she wrote and said unless you returned to the Home you must send in your resignation ?—She did not exactly use those words. 70. You know in that letter Mrs. Branting said Miss Hunt and she were doing your work? —Yes, in my absence. 71. That, of course, meant attendants' work?— Yes. 72. Did you not infer from that that Miss Hunt and Mrs. Branting performed the duties of attendant in your absence? —No, I did not gather that. Mrs. Branting did the office-work before I went there, and Miss Hunt assisted her occasionally. 73. But did you think that in doing your work they were doing your attendant's work? —I suppose they managed the same as before I went there. 74. Were you not dissatisfied with your position from the start ?—I was very dissatisfied at having to go out in the cold in the morning. 75. Why, when you found you were called upon to perform duties you had not contracted to undertake, did you not give the place up?—l was going to continue for six months, when I was to be relieved of them. 76. That is when the new wing was up?— Yes. Mrs. Branting told me about the new wing, but I wanted something more definite. The Department had agreed to give me £60, and Mrs. Branting cut it down to £52; but at the end of six months she said she was going to give me £60 and relieve me of attendants' duties. 77. You were not back very long before you contracted influenza? —Not very long. 78. So that from July until you came back in September you were practically away most of the time?—l had been away a month altogether. It was most unfortunate, but I was not ill from choice. 79. During the time you were there did you form an opinion, the same as you have expressed to-day, that the management was utterly wrong, that the girls were horribly punished, and that injustice in everything was being inflicted upon them?—No; I had quite a different opinion at first. 80. When did you first realise, as you have stated to-day, that the girls were unjustly treated? —While at the Home, from seeing things happen. I know Miss Mills punished girls without taking them to the Matron. 81. And you took quite a different course with the girls, and treated them kindly? —Yes. 82. And let them do what they liked pretty well? —No, I did not. 83. Is it not a fact that you practically told the girls they could do what they liked?—No; the girls always obeyed me. 84. Did you ever tell them to do the work the other staff did? Did you insist upon them doing the work the same as the other staff did, or did you allow the girls to have their own way 1 —If the girls straightened their backs at all the other staff reported them. I certainly did not. 85. When you went out with them you took a book and read, and let the girls do what they liked practically?—l do not think I had a book. 86. Never on any occasion? —I had writing material on one afternoon. 87. Did you ever tell the girls you were not an attendant, but that you came there as a clerk? —Yes; when the girls have called me another attendant. 88. Did you not tell them you were not going to-act as an attendant with them? —No, I did not. If the girls were under my charge I had to look after them to see they carried out my instructions. 89. Did you ever sympathize with the girls as against the staff and Matron?—l do not think I have. 90. Did you ever on any occasion say to a girl it was a " hellish thing to be treated like this "1 —No, I have never used that expression. 91. You are quite sure of that?—l am absolutely sure. 92. Did you ever tell the girls you considered they were very unjustly treated?—No, I do not think I ever told them that. 93. Did you ever talk about the girls absconding? Did you ever say you did not wonder at them trying to abscond? —No, I nevef"used that expression. • 94. You swear that?—l have no recollection of ever using those words. 95. Or words to that effect?—l never remember having said such a thing. 96. You have never on any occasion said that to the girls? —I may have made a remark, like that to' the staff, if I ever did make it. 97. Do you know a girl named C ?—Yes. 98. Do you know a girl named R B ?—Yes. 99. Did you ever say to her or any of the other girls that an inquiry was coming on, as you knew it from the newspapers?—No; I never did say anything about an inquiry. 100. Did you say to R B that some girl had said something about the Home outside, and that the Matron's name would soon be " Walker "?—No; I never used that expression. That is the expression the Matron used to me in regard to Miss Mills. 101. Did you ever tell this girl not to let any one ask any questions about you?—l cannot remember. 102. Have you ever made any presents to the girls?—l think I have given them sweets. 103. Have you ever made them presents contrary to the regulations?—l never heard it was contrary.

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104. Have you ever given any girl any article of clothing?— No. 105. Nothing at all?—I do not remember ever giving any girl any clothing. I believe I have given the Matron something to give to one of the girls. 106. Did you leave the Home of your own motion? —No. 107. You were dismissed from the Home?— Yes; I was asked to resign. 108. Rightly or wrongly, because certain statements were made by the girls that you had incited them to mutiny, or next door to it. You know what the girls have said, because you had an opportunity of seeing the statements ?—Yes. 109. I want to read to you from this statement: "From the time H had her hair cut, Miss Howden was always saying the girls were treated like beasts, and made us all dissatisfied. She constantly took me to her room, and used to ask me what went on in the Home, saying that neither Matron nor the staff let her into any of the secrets." Did you take that girl to your room? —Yes; she used to brush my hair sometimes. She was on my room for a month. 110. Have you ever asked her questions about what went on in the Home?— No. 111. " One Sunday, coming home from church, she asked M and I if we knew anything about the papers " : Is there any truth in that?—No; I never mentioned papers to the girls. 112. " I said I heard A say a few things, but not much. She then told us a few of the things that were going on " : Did you do so? —No, I did not. 113. " She wished she had her way, and she would have an inquiry, and see who came out on top. She then began talking about Mr. Smail, and said he always sided with the Home, whether it was in the right or in the wrong. She said the Matron called the girls beasts." Did you tell the girl that? —No; I never heard that before. 114. "Another Sunday, after E came home, she said Matron never told her E had absconded, and she thought it a dirty sneak's trick, as some of the staff knew." Did the Matron tell you E had absconded?— Yes; when I came in from church the Matron told me E had absconded. That was the same night that she absconded. 115. Then this girl is not telling the truth there?— No. 116. " She then asked me if I would like a good dress and blouse she showed me." Did you show her a dress and blouse? —No. 117. "If ever the girls were insubordinate, and attempted to abscond, she stuck up for them, and said they wanted their freedom. She was always running Miss Hunt down, and calling her a nigger-driver." Did you ever call Miss Hunt a nigger-driver?— No. 118. "Miss Howden was always putting me against the Home, but I told her I could not go against the Home because I had been here so long. She was always talking to Z MeG ." Is there a word of truth in that statement, from beginning to end?—No, not one word,of truth. Why did not the girl produce the dress and blouse I gave her ? 119. I do not think she got the dress? —If she has the Matron must know. 120. " Miss Howden said also she could not trust any one here, staff or any one, and asked jne where she could hide the keys of her drawers. She said either Miss Dean or Miss Hunt took her blotting-paper. She said not only were the girls light-fingered, but also the staff. She never kept any of the institution's rules, and incited us to break them." Did you lose any blottingpaper?—l did. 121. How did the girl know anything about it?— Because the belongings of every girl were searched. I first spoke to the Matron about it. 122. Did you express an opinion that one of the staff took it and not the girls?—l certainly expressed the opinion the girls had not taken it. 123. You have seen the charges signed by H M and F B ?—Yes, I have seen them months ago. These things were talked about, and the Matron decided she would take a broad view of the matter, and let it drop. She put them in her drawer, and kept them there until I asked to be relieved of the attendant's duty, and also asked for the salary the Department had first offered. Then she took my letter, wrote one of her own, and sent up these statements—which were supposed to be done with —to the Department. We talked over these statements, and the Matron said to me herself that the girls were liars, and would swear your life away. 124. I will read the letter Mrs. Branting sent to the Department: "The Secretary for Education, Wellington. —Sir, —When Mr. Pope was here on Monday, the 30th December, 1907, I showed him the enclosed statements, and asked him what I should do in the matter. He said he had no hesitation in saying they should-be forwarded to the Department, as the matter referred to is in connection with the late attack on this Home. You will see that Miss Howden denies everything. On the morning following Mrs. Kaye's investigation Miss Howden spoke to me, and said' the girls had told her of the proceedings of the previous evening. After some conversation I sent for the three girls, and they, in Miss Hunt's and my presence, told Miss Howden that it was quite true —that they had nothing to gain by telling, and much to lose, as she had given them many things lately, &c. It was to me a painful scene, and the first time anything like it has happened here. Miss Howden said the girls lied and the girls said Miss Howden did. Miss Howden said it was a plot—on whose part she did not say. Knowing the character of the girls, and that they are most unscrupulous if they can gain anything, but I have never known any of them to act against their own interests, as in this case. Several girls have since said they also were talked to by Miss Howden in the same way. I told Miss Howden that the only course, if this were true, would be instant dismissal; but that knowing the character of the girls, I would keep an open mind on the subject for a time. As I have been publicly attacked, and the Home commented upon, in most of the New Zealand papers, it seems advisable to ask for your assistance in the matter, as you will readily see that to work with a member of the staff accused of disloyalty at a time when one wants to be sure of loyalty, especially among the inmates, to sit at table and talk things over in a friendly way, makes confidence almost impossible." You see, Mrs. Branting

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points out to the Secretary that these girls whose statements she sent up were absolutely unreliable and unscrupulous ?—And what does she think of the statements they made about her ? They made a very grave charge against the Matron, as they made about me. 125. I want to point out to you that you are quite wrong in supposing the Matron did not treat you with absolute fairness in writing that letter. Then, I think the Minister, after reading that letter, simply sent down word that you were to be dismissed?— Yes; but why did the Matron keep these statements so long? Why did she not act immediately on them if they were correct? 126. In addition to this, I am going to ask you whether you know the girl C ?—Yes. 127. Have you any feeling of enmity for her?— Not that lam aware of. 128. Are you friendly with her? —I do not know. I suppose, as much as lam with the othergirls. 129. She had made certain statements about you, and I may tell you she did so after being warned, that she need not make any statements against you if she did not choose to. She was told also she would have nothing to gain or to fear by making the statements. This girl was examined separately, and knew nothing about what was going on. I will read what she says?— Who asked the girl to make the statement? 130. I did, and I warned her as I have stated. She then said she wished to make a statement, and I said I would take it down. This is what she volunteered to me: " Miss Howden and I were amongst the fowls., I had had a few words with Miss Mills about an apron. I told Miss Howden about it, and I said the staff were always going on to me about something. She said it was a hellish place to live in. I heard her make the same remark to F B and H M . She used to ask me why the staff had a down upon me, and asked me why I stayed here, and why I did not stand up for myself and hold my own. She told me she did not agree with the Matron and the staff. I asked her why she stayed here. Ido not remember her answer. When at the fowls she used to talk about the absconding girls. She did not tell us of the girls absconding. She has often left us outside part of the time by ourselves. We could have got away had we chosen. She was constantly giving presents to the girls." Is there any truth in that statement? —Absolutely not a word of it is true. The girls could never have got away on any occasion, because I was there the whole time they were doing their work. 131. You know a girl named L R ?-—Yes. 132. Under the same circumstances she made this statement: "In the workroom one day she said, 'Matron treats the girls most unjustly' ": Is that true?—l do not think so. What was it about? 133. Have you ever made such a remark?—lf a girl had been punished, and told me, I may have said it was very unjust. 134. Do you think that was proper?—l do not know the circumstances, and I do not think I could have said it. 135. The statement goes on :"A reporter came one day. Miss Hunt was showing him round, and Miss Howden came from her office to the workroom, where I was sewing. Asked me if I knew anything of what was going on in the papers. I said I had heard of it from the girls. She said I hope they will get a good blowing up, because it would take them down a peg or two. The Matron took too much upon herself. Another evening when I came over from prayers Miss Howden was the only member of the staff on the first-class side. She told me she wanted some oil for her stove-lamp, and that I was to come and stand on the door until she got it. If I heard anything I was to cough loudly. She would have asked for the loan of some oil, only the Matron and the staff were such sneaks, &c. They would say she had been taking it all the time. One afternoon she was in charge of the working party outside. She let us do what we liked. She said we could sit down and have a rest, and we rested nearly all the afternoon. She lost some blotter one day, and we inferred from what she said that Miss Hunt had taken it. She said, ' What could you expect from the girls when the staff sets such an example? ' " Is that true?— That is absolutely untrue —for instance, I always had methylated spirits for my lamp. 136. Everything these girls say is untrue?— These statements are untrue. Ido not know how they could have said such things. I think these girls have been with the Matron two or three times before they made these statements. 137. You say everything these girls say is absolutely untrue?— When the things are brought up about me they are believed absolutely, yet when the girls make the most serious charge against somebody else no notice is taken of it. ..They are liars at once. 138. I do not know what you are referring to?— They made a very serious charge against the Matron. In their presence I told the Matron what they had said about her. Miss Hunt was also present. F B told her. 139. The Commissioner.] I do not know what you are referring to?—lt was so awful I said I would take no notice of it. 140. Mr. Russell.] I would not take any notice of it if I were you?—lt was a very grave charge indeed. 141. Mr. Pope.] You knew the Matron had appointed you, and not the Department?— Yes. 142. You knew you were responsible to the Matron alone?— Yes. 143. You recognised she had power to vary your duties? —Yes. 144. With regard to your statement that your salary was fixed at £60 and reduced by the Matron to £52, what is your authority for that?— The Matron first saw Mrs. Scale, and told her the Department had given her permission to engage a clerk at £60. 145. Later, did the Matron tell you definitely the Department had agreed to your having £60 a year?— She told me the Department had allowed £60. 146. Did you ever complain to me about your position at Te Oranga? —I never had an opportunity. You know you never came near me.

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147. Do you know of any other attendants who made an opportunity to come?— Yes, Miss Mills did so. 148. Did she get satisfaction, do you know?—l do not know about satisfaction. Miss Mills told me about the interview. The Matron told Miss Mills it was not she who had appointed Miss Hunt, or given her the position of Sub-matron, but the Department. Mr. Pope told Miss Mills these matters were entirely arranged by the Matron. So. it was not very satisfactory. 149. You do not know that of your own knowledge? —I only know what Miss Mills told me. 150. You know you could have made an opportunity to see me?—l suppose I could have. 151. In regard to the girls being visited in the cells, is it not a fact that your window overlooks the detention-yard, and that if the girl wanted to attract your attention she could have done so at once? —Yes; but what would she want to attract my attention for if she was put in the cell? 152. Practically speaking, while there the girl was under your supervision?— She was not. I could not see the girl when working in my office. 153. But every time you looked up you could see the girl?— The door was locked. 154. Did a girl ever make a noise?— Yes. J —-— L did when she was put in and forgotten. 155. And you attended to her? —I did not. The attendant who put her in did so. The girl was left there, and not visited, and had no dinner. Ido not know whether she took that as part of the punishment. Now, as Mrs. Branting has made all these statements, I think I should go a little further. I may say that Mrs. Branting does not always speak the truth about things, and I think I can prove this. The money that she spends during the month is not always recorded to the Department as it is spent, and it is sometimes questioned by the Auditor, and then she does not speak the truth about it. She gave the postman ss. for a Christmas box and charged it up as dinners. When the dinners are questioned she says it is "a number of service girls going to town to shop, and, of course, they must have dinner." Of course, right through, from the evidence, you will see that Mrs. Branting does not speak the truth about things. She told Mrs. Aitken her girl was not twenty-one, and made me make a license out for her. I know all through my dealings at Te Oranga there has been a big undercurrent. There has always been an endeavour to try and get rid of me because, I suppose, I saw through things, to speak plainly. The girls are charged 3d. for a reel of brilliant cotton that costs 2^d. 156. I gathered from what you say you think the Matron had other grounds than those mentioned in the girls' statements for thinking you unsuitable? —She never told me I was unsuitable. She complimented me*on my work, and when I complained I could not pay more attention to my work she said, "It pleases me. I have never complained about your work." 157. You protested to the Department about your position at Te Oranga?—Yes. I wish to refer to another injustice to the girls. Twopence is deducted from every girl's mark-money at the end of the month for church. The Catholic girls give Id. only. That amounts to about Bs. or 9s. per month. One penny would be quite sufficient, because there is a balance of about half always. They only give Is. each Sunday they go to church. Where is the balance? I know on one occasion Mrs. Branting gave ss. to a send-off to Mr. Seaton and a welcome to Mr. Inwood, and she told me to take it out of the balance of the mark-money. She said she did not see why she should pay it out of her own pocket 158. Mr. Salter.] With regard to these statements, I suppose they were made by these girls in Mrs. Branting's room? —I do not know where they were made. It was done in my absence. 159. Do you remember Mrs. Branting, when discussing this matter, making some remark about knowing which side her bread was buttered? —Yes. She said she would never have objected to Mrs. Bean having the girl if the late Premier had been alive, because she knew on which side her bread was buttered. She always told me she knew how to act, because Mr. Pope had told, her to write to Sir Edward Gibbes, and make her letter private and confidential. 160. Mr. Russell.] What about? —About Mrs. Bean getting the girl. 161. Mr. Salter.] Do you know her object in writing private and confidential?— Yes, she said she knew she could go one better than Mrs. Bean. 162. Have you seen the girls strapped there?—l saw one strapped by the Matron. 163. How many cuts did she receive on that occasion?—l think six. The girl was G J . 164. Pretty hard?—l thought they were very severe. 165. The Commissioner.] There is .nothing you wish to add?— No. 166. If you think of anything you wish to say before the Commission closes I shall call you again ? —Very well. Wednesday, 11th March, 1908. M B examined on oath. 1. Mr. Russell.] You are a domestic servant, living near Timaru? —Yes. 2. What is your age?— Close on twenty-two. 3. Then you are away from the jurisdiction of the Home?— Yes. 4. How long have you been away from the Home?—A year last Christmas. 5. How long were you living here before you went away?— About two years and a half. 6. When you were here were you called upon to do any wood-chopping or tree-felling ?—Yes. 7. Did you object to that work in any way?— No. 8. Did you prefer it to the indoor work?— Yes. 9. Did you find it very hard? —Not hard. We had spells.

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10. Could you rest whenever you liked? —Not whenever we liked, but we had ten minutee sometimes. 11. Had you a sufficient amount of rest? —Yes, quite sufficient. 12. How many nights a week did you have to yourselves completely when you were here?— Monday and Thursday, I think. 13. And what about Saturday afternoons?—We had from about 4 p.m., I think, until bedtime to ourselves. 14. During the summer, were you in the habit of playing tennis or croquet?— Yes. 15. You had these afternoons for your own pleasure in the grounds? —Yes. 16. During the time you were wood-chopping, were you under the supervision of the staff? —Yes. 17. Who were the staff at that time?— Miss Mills and Miss Hunt. 18. Generally, were they harsh or unkind to you?— Neither. 19. Were the other members of the staff with whom you were brought in contact different in any way?—No, they were all the same. 20. Then, generally, were the staff nice to you while you were here? —Yes. 21. Did you have sufficient food? —Yes. 22. Was the quality of it all right? —Yes. 23. And your bedding?— Yes, quite comfortable. 24. And your personal clothes were quite sufficient?— Yes. 25. In the winter-time were you called upon to scrub?— Yes. 26. Had you hot or cold water?— Neither hot nor cold. It was warm. 27. Could you have had hot water if you had wanted it or asked for it? —Yes. 28. At any time you were in the Home was there anything you had to complain of except, of course, being kept here?— Nothing at all. 29. Were you in the habit of paying 2d. per month to the church out of your pocket money? —I think I did. 30. You knew that?— Yes. 31. Did you at any time want that reduced to a penjiy?—No. 32. Have you been on good terms with Mrs. Branting all the time?— Yes. 33. Do you feel now that you have gained any improvement during the two years you were in the Home? —Decidedly. 34. You are now in service? —Yes. 35. Have you had any trouble with your master or mistress? —Nothing of a serious nature. 36. Since you have been away, do you regard this as your home?— Certainly. 37. And when you want advice, to whom do you go?—To Matron. 38. Do I understand that if any trouble arose you would look to this as the point where you could get guidance?—l would. 39. If anything happened to you you would come back here to stay?— Yes, if the Matron would let me. 40. In preference to any other place?— Yes. 41. Were you happy during the whole time you were here? —Very happy. 42. Have you any complaint of any kind to make against the Home? —None. 1 43. Mr. Salter.] Were you in the first division or second division?—l think I was in the second division about six months. Then I came over to the first class. /'■'■ 44. You were specially good, and were promoted? —Yes. 45. How long have you been up from Timaru? —I came up on Monday. 46. You have been staying here?—l stayed here last night. I was at Sumner before. 47. You had a long talk with Mrs. Branting about the inquiry?-—No talk whatever. 48. Was the subject of the inquiry not mentioned? —No. 49. In no way whatever? —No. 1 50. You say you have absolutely no cause for complaint during the time you were here?— Not at all. 51. Were you ever punished whilst here?— No. 52. Did you see any other girl.s punished?—No; I have heard of it. 53. Have you ever seen the Matron box any girls' ears? —Not in my time. 54. Have you ever heard of herjioing it? —No. 55. Have you ever heard any of the girls complaining about the food?— They were satisfied all the time I was there. 56. You say you rather liked the wood-chopping?— Yes. 57. Did you like the cross-cutting and felling?— Yes. 58. And you did not find it hard? —No. 59. Do you think it is the sort of work girls should do?— Well, I do not think it does them any harm. 60. Do you think it fits them for service? —Yes, because you have to do it afterwards. 61. What, tree-felling? —Cutting wood and sawing. 62. You had no option in regard to church-money, had you?— No. 63. You never dreamt of suggesting it should be reduced to Id.?— No. 64. It was deducted, and there was an end of it? —Yes. 65. Do you know anything about a room called the reception-room?— Yes. ,66. Do you know what it is? —Yes. 67. Have you ever been in it? —Yes, there was a library in it. 68. Do you know what it is used for?—l have never been in for that reason. 69. For what reason? —[No answer.]

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70. The Commissioner.] The girls were taken there when they were returned to the school after absconding?— Not for that reason exactly. 71. For what do you understand the reception-room, to be?— Girls had disease of some description, and they were examined. That is all I know about it. 72. Mr. Salter.] You know nothing of any harsh treatment of girls whilst you were here? —No. 73. Did the girls in the second class have much to say to the girls in the first? —No. 74. So the girls in the second division might be very harshly treated and the girls in the first class not know of it?—Oh, no. We always knew. The Matron was over there, and we were on the second-class side with the Matron. 75. I thought you said you were kept quite separate?—So we were, but at the same time w<* knew pretty well what was going on. 76. How did you know?— The Matron told us. 77. She talked about the other girls to you? —She used to say if any girl was punished or had not behaved properly. 78. She used to tell the girls in the first class? —The Matron used to speak to us when we were all together. 79. She used to speak of the other girls' faults before you all? —No; she used to advise them and tell them to do better. 80. Mr. Rttssell.] This was at prayer-time?— Yes. 81. And then she would advise the girls not to do it again? —Yes, and tell them they ought to behave themselves. 82. That was in front of all the girls?— Yes. 83. So that all could hear what she said?— Yes. 84. The Commissioner.] Have you ever heard any grumbling amongst the girls generally about the food ?—Not at all. They have always been satisfied. 85. So far as you knew, there was always plenty?— Yes. 86. Was any attempt ever made to induce-you to abscond by any of the other girls?—No, certainly not. 87. Absconding was not discussed generally amongst the girls?— No. 88. Of course, you know there are bad and good in the school? —Yes. 89. Do you think the girls who were badly inclined had opportunities for influencing the others? —They could talk to the other girls. 90. Have they ever tried to influence you at all? —No; I would not be influenced. 91. You would try and show a good example to the others, being an elder girl?— Yes. 92. And you feel your position to-day is due to your life in the Home? —Yes. E B examined on oath. 1. Mr. Russell.] What is your age?—l was seventeen last August. 2. And I think you have been here three years come August?— Yes. 3. Are you in the first or second division?— First. 4. How long have you been in the first?—A little over two years. 5. Then you were one year in the second? —Yes. 6. Do you take any particular part in wood-chopping or a turn all round?—A turn all round. 7. Do you find that work hard upon you?— No. 8. Would you rather be outside in the sun and air or in the house?— Outside. 9. And if you had your choice you would prefer wood-chopping to inside work? —Yes. 10. What members of the staff are with you generally when you are wood-chopping?— Miss Hunt or Miss Dean. 11. Are they kind to you, or do they drive you?— They are very kind to us. 12. Have you anything to complain of about Miss Dean or Miss Hunt?— No. 13. Do you get plenty of rest-time when cutting wood? —Yes. 14. How many afternoons or evenings in the week do you girls get to play in?— Monday and Wednesday. 15. And from what time on Saturday?— From 3 p.m. until bedtime. 16. In the summer-time do you play tennis and croquet?— Yes. 17. Are you free to do what you like in that time so long as you obey the regulations?— Yes. 18. You said Miss Hunt and Miss Dean were kind to you: what about the other members of the staff? —They are all kind to us. 19. Do you get sufficient food here?— Yes. 20. Have you sufficient bedding to keep you warm in winter?— Yes. 21. You are quite sure?— Yes. 22. And do you get enough personal clothing^ —Yes. 23. Does each girl have her own clothes in her locker?— Yes. 24. It has been said that the girls have to scrub in the winter-time with cold water, and that no hot water is allowed them: is that so or not?—On the first-class side we have hot water. 25. Do you know anything about the other side? —I think the girls have it there. They had it when I was there. 26. When you go to school, are you tired with your work in the afternoon?— No. 27. Do you ever feel you are tired, and cannot learn your lessons?- —No. 28. Do you get on well with your lessons?— Yes. 29. Have you been punished at any time? —Yes. 30. What for? —I was put in the cell once for impudence. At other times I went to bed.

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31. What were you sent to bed for?— For not knowing my lessons. 32. How much money do you give per month to the church? —2d. 33. Do you know that is given?— Yes. <34. Would you rather have it reduced to Id.?— No. 35. Why not?—l would like to give more if I could. 36. Has the Matron at all times been kind to you?— Yes. 37. Do you go to her now for advice? —Yes. 38. You know you are in the Home for your own benefit? —Yes. 39. Do you feel you are getting on, and are better than you used to be?— Yes. 40. If you went into the world would you regard this as your home?— Yes. 41. If you wanted any advice in any trouble to whom would you go?—To the Matron here. 42. Have you any complaints of any kind to make against the Home or the Department? —No. 43. Against the staff? —No. 44. Mr. Salter.] Have you had a chat with any one about this inquiry?— No. 45. No one has spoken to you at all about it? —No. 46. How long were you in the cell? —About two hours, 1 think. 47. Have you ever been strapped?— No. 48. Have you ever seen girls having their ears boxed? —No. 49. Are you quite sure no girls have had their ears boxed in your presence?— Not in my presence. 50. Have you ever heard of girls having their ears boxed? —Yes. 51. From the girls whose ears had been boxed?— Yes. 52. So far as you know, do the girls here always tell the truth? Do you always tell the truth ?—Very nearly always. 53. Sometimes you tell things that are not true? —Yes. 54. Do you know anything about the reception-room?— No. 55. You know there is such a room?— Yes. . 56. Are you sure the girls on the second-class side have hot water for scrubbing?—l am not over there, so I cannot say. When I was there they did. 57. So if one of the girls on the other side says they have not, that is not true? —I do not know. 58. Do you know how much is given per week to the church for all the girls? —No. 59. Do you know that Is. per week is placed in the plate for all the girls? —I do not know if it is for all the girls. 60. One girl is deputed to put a shilling in the plate?— The staff put it in. Ido not know how much they put in. 61. Do you not know that Is. per week is put in?—l have seen Is. given in. 62. Have you ever heard any complaints by the girls about the food?— No. 63. When wood-chopping, have you ever heard an attendant, and particularly Miss Hunt, say, "Now, girls; it is not time to get tired until 5 o'clock"? —Yes. 64. Was that because the girls straightened their backs ?—I do not know. 65. And you prefer chopping down trees and cross-cutting to housework? —Yes. E B examined on oath. 66. Mr. Russell.] What is your age?— About fourteen. 67. You have been in the Home eighteen months?— Yes. 68. How many afternoons do you get for playtime?—We get from 5.30 to 8 p.m. on Mondays and Wednesdays, and from 3 p.m. on Saturdays. 69. During the summer-time do you amuse yourselves playing tennis and croquet? —Yes. 70. In the winter-time, what do you do? —We stay inside and do fancy work. 71. Is your time absolutely your own during these hours?— Yes. 72. You have no tasks at all to do?— No. 73. Are you one of the wood-choppers?— Yes. 74. Do you like that work? —Yes.' 75. Would you rather do it than be inside?— Yes. 76. What do you do—cross-cut? — Sometimes. I am watering now. 77. Who attends to the seeds and'Howers and plants?—Us girls. 78. Then, the whole of your time is not devoted to cutting wood?— No. 79. Would you be three days a week engaged in wood-chopping?— No. 80. Taking one month with another, would you be two days a week at the wood-chopping? —No. 81. Would you be one day in the week?— Yes. 82. Do you mind chopping wood? —Not at all. 83. Does it make you very tired? —No. 84. Who is the staff who goes with you?— Miss Hunt and Miss Dean. 85. Are they kind to you out there or very severe?— Very kind to me. . , 86. Are they kind to the other girls, so far as you can see?— Yes. 87. Suppose you feel a little bit tired, are you allowed time to rest?— Yes. 88. Is Miss Hunt very particular in making you start again the next minute, or does she give you plenty of time to rest ? —She gives us time to rest. 89. Do Miss Hunt and Miss Dean treat you nicely always?— Yes. 90. And are they nice to you in the house as well?— Yes. 91. Have you any complaint to make.about them at all?— Not at all.

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92. So far as you can see, do they treat the other girls in the same way?— Yes. 93. Do you get all the food you want?— Yes. 94. Have you enough bedding in the winter-time? —Yes. 95. And plenty of clothes?— Yes. 96. You have your own clothes kept in your own locker? —Yes. 97. Have you been punished at all?-—-Yes. 98. What for? —I was sent to bed with dry bread for not learning my lessons. 99. Since you have been in the Home, have you been happy or unhappy? —Happy. 100. Do you like being here?— Yes. 101. You know you are here for your own good?— Yes. 102. Does the Matron treat you in a motherly way?— Yes. 103. And is kind to you?— Yes. 104. Do you go to her if you have any complaints or any troubles? —Yes. 105. And when you leave here will you regard this as your old home? —Yes. 106. And if you were in trouble, to whom would you go?—To the Matron. 107. Do you give any money to the church? —Yes, 2d. per month. 108. Would you like that reduced to Id.?— No. 109. Mr. Salter.] You would rather be here than anywhere else? —Yes. 110. Have you ever seen girls having their ears boxed? —Yes. 111. By whom? —By Matron. 112. With both hands, first one side and then the other? —Yes. 113. Has that happened often?— Not very often. Only when they deserved it. 114. Do you know why you were brought here? —For stealing. 115. Are you amongst the first- or second-class girls? —First class. 116. How long were you in the second class? —A year exactly. 117. You say you are not tired after the wood-chopping?— No. 118. Have you driven in the wedge with the maul?—l did it when I was on the second side, but not since. 119. Did you find that rather hard?— Yes. 120. That was the hardest about the work?-—Yes. 121. Did you ever do kitchen-work?— " No. 122. Have you seen any utensils in the pantry or kitchen for keeping jam and salt and sugar in ?—Yes. 123. What are they? —Jars. 124. Are there not bedroom utensils there with jam in them?— No. 125. Are you sure?-—Yes. 126. There are some?— Yes. 127. Have any of the other girls ever complained to you about the food? —Yes, that they did not get enough to eat. 128. You have always had enough to eat?— Yes. 129. You are quite sure?— Positive. 130. Do you know anything about the reception-room?— Yes, but I have not been there. 131. The girls here do not always tell the truth?— No. 132. Have you always told it? —Not always. 133. You are telling the truth now? —Yes. A A W examined on oath. 1. Mr. Russell.] What is your age?— Fourteen years. 2. How long have you been here? —Twelve months next June. 3. How many afternoons altogether do you get in the week for play?— Mondays and Wednesdays and Saturdays, from 3 p.m. until bedtime. 4. During these times you can play and do whatever you like? —Yes. 5. What do you play at as a rule in the summer-time?— Sometimes we go out to the tenniscourt. 6. Do you do wood-chopping occasionally?— Yes. 7. Do you like wood-chopping? —Yes. 8. You would rather do that than be,.inside? —Yes. 9. What part do you do? —I chop the blocks that the other girls saw. 10. They are not very big blocks as a rule? —No. 11. Do you find the work tires you very much?— No. 12. Who of the staff goes out with you? —Sometimes Miss Hunt and now Miss McPherson. 13. Are they severe or kind to you? —Very kind to us. 14. And to all the other girls as well?- —Yes, they treat us all the same. 15. Are you allowed to rest yourselves if you are tired? —Yes, if we are very tired. 16. Does the staff ever drive you?-—No. 17. What about your food? —I get plenty to eat. 18. In the winter are you warm enough in bed? —Yes. 19. Do you get enough clothing for yourself?— Yes. 20. Do you do any scrubbing in the winter or summer time?—l have not scrubbed in the winter yet. 21. Is there plenty of hot water for anything that is wanted so far as you know?— Yes. 22. Have you been punished at all since you have been here? —I have been put to bed once for not knowing my lessons, and once for not having my work done. 23. Do you like being here?— Yes.

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24. If you get into any trouble, whom do you tell?—I never tell any one if I get into trouble. 25. Is the Matron kind to you?— Yes. 26. Is she a friend to you?—l like her very much. 27. If you left here, would you consider this your home to come to if you wanted a home, or would you look upon it as a prison ?—I would look upon it as a home. 28. Would you go to the Matron if you wanted advice or got into any trouble? —Yes. 29. Have you any complaint at all to make? —No. 30. You are quite sure?— Yes. 31. You are quite happy here? —Yes. 32. Mr. Salter.] Are you quite sure that if you went away from here you would like to come back again ? —Yes, I would come back. 33. At wood-chopping, have you ever had to drive wedges in with a maul?— No. 34. How do you split the wood? —With an axe. The logs are short. 35. You do not feel tired after it?— No. 36. And you honestly say you would rather do wood-splitting and sawing than be inside helping in the house?—l like doing work outside. 37. Have you ever been to work at the lupins?— Yes. 38. Have you had to grub some of them up ?—Yes, and burn them. .39. Is it true you do not get water when you go over there?— They bring water to us. 40. But if you forget to take water "are you allowed to go back to get a drink? —No. 41. You say the staff never drive you: do you understand what driving means?— They are never very cross with us. 42. But do they tell you it is not time to get tired yet?— They have never told us that. 43. Have you ever heard girls complain about not having enough food?— Yes. 44. But you always were one of. the lucky ones who got plenty?—l always had enough. , . 45. Have you seen girls' ears boxed? —No; I have seen them hit on the back. 46. By whom?— Matron. 47. Do you know anything about the reception-room?—I was there once. 48. What for? —[No answer.] 49. The Commissioner.] We understand the girls go there for physical'examination, and if a girl goes there for physical examination we know what that means. M M examined on oath. 1. Mr. Russell.] What is your age?—l am seventeen and a half years of age, 2. You have been two years and ten months here? —Yes. 3. Are you in the first or second division now?— First. 4. How long have you been in the first? —Five months. 5. You have holidays every Monday, Wednesday, and Saturday?— Yes. 6. And these afternoons and evenings are entirely at your own disposal to do as you like?—Yes. 7. What do you do in the summer time? —Play in the grounds. 8. Tennis and croquet?— Yes. 9. And what do you do in the winter time? —Stay inside and sew and sing and play games. 10. Have you done wood-chopping at any time? —Yes; I still do it. 11. Do you think it is hard?—l do not think it is very hard. 12. I suppose you do not kill yourself? —No. 13. Are Miss Hunt and Miss McPherson with you, as a rule? —Yes. 14. Do they give you time to rest, or do they drive you all the time?— They do not drive us. . 1"5. Do you get ample time to rest at intervals—say, after cutting a branch?— Yes. 16. I suppose you are not allowed to what is called " loaf "?—No. 17. Have you any complaint of any kind to make against the wood-chopping? —-No. 18. Do you attend school?— Yes. 19. When you have been chopping in the morning, do you find that that work in any way prevents you learning your lessons in the afternoon?— No. 20. Do you get ample food here?— Yes. 21. Have you heard any of the girls complain about not getting enough to eat?-—Yes, some of them. . , 22. Do you get the same as they do?— Yes. 23. There is no distinction made between the different classes of girls?— No. 24. You all have your meals together in the one room? —Yes. 25. You see exactly what the others get?— Yes. 26. Who made complaints about not getting enough? —M R and G N- . 27. These are the only two ?—Yes. 28. How long back is this?— When I was in the second class. 29. You have heard no complaints since?— No. 30. Do you get bedding enough, and sufficient and proper clothes?— Yes. 31. Do the staff generally treat you kindly or not? —Very kindly. 32. Is there any of them you would like to say anything about? —No. 33. Are you good friends with the Matron?— Yes. 34. Do you like the Matron? —Yes. 35. Have you been punished at any time?— Yes, for giving impudence. 36. What was your punishment?—l was put in the cell. 37. You know Miss Howden, who was here?— Yes. 38. Has she ever had any talks with you?— Yes.

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39. What about ?—She told me about the rows in the paper. 40. What did she say?— She told me she would like to have an inquiry on here, to see who would come out on top. 41. Was that whilst she was here?— Yes. 42. Anything else? —She told me the Matron treated us like beasts, and sometimes called us beasts. 43. You are telling us the truth now?— Yes. 44. Anything else?— Yes. Some blotting-paper was taken out of her office one day, and she said not only the girls were light-fingered but the staff. 45. Did she say anything about an inquiry coming on, and as to giving evidence? —No, just that she would like to have an inquiry here, because she thought the girls were treated very unjustly. 46. Where did this conversation take place?— She told us coming home from church. 47. Are you satisfied with being here?— Yes. 48. You know you are here for your own good?— Yes. 49. Do you feel you are improving?— Yes. 50. If you left here and went into service, would you regard this place as your home or as a prison ?—As my home. 51. If you had any trouble, to whom would you go?—To the Matron. 52. Mr. Salter.] You have had a talk with Mr. Russell before about this inquiry?— Yes. 53. Was the Matron present?— Yes. 54. And Mr. Russell took all this down?— Yes. 55. Mr. Russell.] Mr. Pope was also present?— Yes. 56. Did he not tell you to speak fearlessly, and not mind the Matron?— Yes. 57. Mr. Salter.] With regard to the statements you made about MisS Howden, who got that information out of you?—No one. I told the Matron myself. 58. After you came home from church? —No; not until Miss Howden went, because I did not know any trouble was going on at all. Ido not know how I got to know, but then I thought it right to tell the Matron what I knew. 59. Miss Howden was very kind to you? —Yes; but she made me very discontented when she was in the Home. 60. Do you know why you were sent to the Home? —Because I was uncontrollable. 61. Whilst you were in the second division, were you satisfied with everything you had in the Home?— Yes. 62. Have you ever seen the Matron boxing girls' ears?— No. I have seen her hit girls on the shoulders. 63. How long were you in the cell? —An hour and a half. 64. Do you know anything about the reception-room?— No. 65. Do you know if jam and sugar are put into bedroom chambers? —Yes. 66. And you honestly say you prefer splitting and mauling wood to housework?— Yes, I would sooner be outside. 67. Do you know some of the girls were unable to get warm water to scrub with on winter mornings?—lf they asked for it they might get it. 68. Then they have to ask; they cannot take it without permission?—lf the fire is alight, and hot water going, they can take the water on the first-class side. On the other side they have to go to the kitchen and ask for it, or go upstairs if the water is running. 69. Do you know of any dissatisfaction amongst the girls on account of their treatment? — No. 70. Have you heard them talking about it?— No. 71. When you were in the second class and in the dormitory at night, what happened to you girls if you turned over in your beds? —I do not think anything happened. 72. Was there any calling-out by the attendants? —No, not unless there was a great noise. 73. Was there anything unpleasant said to girls who happened to turn over in their beds at night?— Not in my hearing. 74. You say the Matron has always been kind to you ?—Yes. 75. You absolutely have no complaint to make against the Matron?— No. E C examined on oath. 76. Mr. Russell.] I think you are a domestic servant in the employ of Mr. F—■ —?—Yes. 77. You were formerly an inmate of this Home?— Yes. 78. How many years have you lived here altogether?— Close on three years. 79. AVhen did you leave the Home?—ln September last. 80. Were you here for the whole three years?—No; I was at service the September before that. 81. How long were you in the second division?— About two years and a half. Then I went to service. When I came back I was for a month and a half in the first division, and then I was put back in the second. 82. You were only a month and a half in the three years in the first division? —Yes. .83. Are you getting on all right in your present service?— Yes. 84. While you were here were you one of the wood-chopping people?— Yes. 85. Did you find that do you any harm? —No. 86. Did you find the work too much for you as a girl?—l never got too much of it, 87. Did you like the work?—l cannot say I was very fond of it. 88. Was there anything in it to make you unduly tired?- —No; when we got tired we did not tell.

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89. Were you allowed to rest at intervals whilst working?-—lf we ever complained about being tired we were allowed five or ten minutes in which to rest sometimes. 90. And sometimes not?— Sometimes they would not. 91. I suppose if the staff thought they did not want a rest? —Yes. 92. I suppose some of the girls would rest the whole time? —Behind the staff's back. 93. I suppose the staff's back would be turned occasionally? —Yes. 94. But taking it all round, was there anything to complain of ?-—No; we never killed ourselves. 95. Generally, while you were in the Home was the staff nice to you?— Yes. 96. Looking back upon that time, was there any ground for complaint against any of the staff?— Well, Miss Mills sometimes was rather sharp. 97. Miss Hunt?— Was always very good to me. 98. And to the other girls as well?—So far as I know. 99. Was the Matron nice to the girls?— Yes. 100. Were you fond of the Matron when you were here?— Yes. 101. And still are?— Yes. 102. Have you any complaints to make about the food? —I once got tainted fish. 103. But putting that little incident out, was the food generally good? —Yes. 104. And of sufficient quantity? —Yes, plenty. 105. And had you enough bed-clothes in the winter time?— Any amount. 106. And of personal clothing?— Yes. 107. Did you have to work when here as hard as you do now?— No. 108. Were you happy during the three years you were here? —Yes. 109. And now you are away do you look back on this place as a prison to be detested or as a home to come to ?—As a home. 110. How do you regard the Matron?—As a mother. 111. Mr. Salter.] Whilst you were in the second division, were you punished? —When I deserved it. 112. Did you often deserve it?— No. 113. Were you ever put in the cell?— Yes. 114. How long at a time? —About two hours at the longest, I should say. 115. Were you ever strapped? —No. 116. And you are not particularly fond of wood-chopping?— No. 117. It was not suitable work for girls?—l did not think it was. Of course, it was healthy work. ' 118. You say you rested behind the staff's back? —Yes. 119. I suppose as a rule the staff kept the girls up to their work pretty smartly? —Yes; we had to work well. 120. Did you ever hear the staff tell the girls it was not time to get tired? —Yes. After pulling the trees or doing heavy work we generally got a rest. 121. Is it a fact that the girls are in the habit of speaking of their bread and jam or bread and dripping as bread and scrape?— Yes, some of them. 122. Why do they do that? —Because they wanted the jam thicker, and butter instead of dripping. 123. Is the bread cut very thick?— Yes, at times. 124. Nothing appetising about it?— No. W 7 hen it was thin the girls grumbled it was too thin. 125. There is a happy medium? —When they got it thicker it was too thick. 126. Do you remember about the girls not having enough food and then having a double quantity given to them? —Yes; I was one of them. 127. What happened? Were you sat over and made to eat the double quantity? —There was a new attendant in the kitchen, who did not quite know the quantity, so we got rather short. When we complained we got rather more than we could eat. We were not really made to eat it if we could not. That only lasted about a week. 128. So they went from one extreme to the other?— Yes. 129. Is it not a fact that some of the girls who did eat that double quantity took rather bad after it?— They felt heavy after it. 130. Did it not strike you as absard to make girls eat more than they desired to?—We were not really forced to eat it if we could not. They said they would give it to us at the next meal, but they did not.do it. 131. If girls are sent away from the table for any offence, is their meal sent after them?— Very rarely. 132. So a girl would have to go without from one meal to another? —Yes. 133. Have you ever seen girls having their ears boxed?— Yes; by Matron. 134. First with one hand and then with the other? —No. 135. Do you know anything about the reception-room?— Yes. 136. Were you ever taken there? —Yes. 137. Is it a fact that jam and sugar is put into bedroom chambers? —Yes. 138. Mr. Russell.] You know you were here for your own good?— Yes. 139. Are you satisfied the training you had here has been the means of making you into a good woman ?—Yes, it has. 140. You are quite sure of that?— Quite sure. 141. Do you think if it had not been for this Home you would not be the girl you are now?— No, I am quite sure I would not.

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L—— R examined on oath. 1. Mr. Russell.] What is your age?— Eighteen years. 2. How long is it since you came to the Home? —Two years and a half. 3. Are you out at service now?—No, I have just come back. I was there a year and four months. 4. Why have you left your service? —My license expired. 5. I suppose you will be going out again?— Yes, as soon as Matron gets a place for me. 6. You were in the second division while here?— Yes, for a year. I was never in the first. I went from the second into service. lam in the first now. 7. Were you one of the wood-choppers? —Yes. 8. Did you find that very hard work? —No. 9. Did it ever prevent you learning your lessons or doing your school-work '?—No. 10. Was the food you had here good or bad?—l had plenty. 11. Was your bed-clothing in the winter time quite warm enough?— Yes. 12. And you had sufficient clothing of your own?— Yes. 13. While you were here did you get time to play and do what you liked?— Yes, on three afternoons in the week. 14. While you were here, did the staff treat you nicely or not?— According to how I behaved. 15. When you behaved well were you treated well?— Yes. 16. And when you did not behave you got into trouble?— Yes; punished. 17. Were you ever punished when you ought not to have been?— No. 18. You know you came here for your own good?— Yes. 19. Do you feel that since you have been here you have been helped in any way by the training at the Home? —Yes; I have been better here than I would have been at home. 20. Are you good friends now with the Matron?— Yes; I have never been bad friends with her. 21. When you were at service, did you look back on this place as a prison or a home?—l always thought it was a pleasure to be able to come up. 22. If you were in any trouble, to whom would you go?—To Matron. 23. You know Miss Howden? —Yes. 24. Did she speak to you here about anything?— Yes. 25. Tell us anything she said to you?— Miss Howden told me the Matron and staff treated the girls very unjustly. 26. Anything else? —She also said she would like to have an inquiry about the Home, and all the girls to have their say in it, and they would soon see who would come out on top. 27. Where did this conversation take place?—ln the workroom. 28. Were you friendly with Miss Howden?—l did not know her very well. 29. You had not much to do with her? —No. 30. Generally, from what you can see, do the staff treat the girls who behave well fairly? —Yes. 31. Have the girls anything to complain of, so far as you can see?—No; some of them were very discontented. 32. When you were here, did you have to work as hard as you did at service?— No. 33. Are you glad to be back here from service? —I do not feel so tired here as I did at service after a day's work. 34. And it is a pleasure to you to be back here? —Well, it is a rest. 35. And a pleasure? —Yes. 36. Mr. Salter.] Before you went to service, did you find everything as satisfactory?— Yes. 37. Were you ever punished? —Yes, I was put in the cell. 38. How long were you kept there? —About an hour, I think. 39. Do you say you thoroughly enjoyed that wood-chopping and tree-felling, and so forth?— I did not mind doing it. I did not like doing outside work, but I knew there was not enough inside work to keep the girls going. I knew we had to do something, and therefore I did not mind doing my share of outside work. 40. Do you think it is suitable work for girls of your age?—l rather like being outside. 41. Do you think it is suitable work for girls of your age?—No; but, still, it does not hurt them. 42. Did any of the girls in your hearing complain about the food they got?—No; some of them would say they got hungry between meals, that is all. 43. Have you ever seen the girls eat carrots? —Yes. I ate them myself. 44. Because you were hungry?—No, because I liked them. 45. Did the staff in every way treat the girls kindly, so far as you know? —Yes. 46. Did you ever hear the staff say to the girls, " You must keep at it; it is not time to get tired "?—No. Sometimes when some of the girls were not working very well they would tell them to get on with their work ; but if a girl worked hard she could have a rest. 47. Have you ever seen girls having their ears boxed? —No. 48. Or being thumped?— No. R M examined on oath. 1. Mr. Russell.] What is your age?—l will be nineteen in three months. 2. You have been here about thirteen months? —Yes. 3. I think you have some outside duties to perform with the cows?— Yes. 4. You milk them in the morning?— Yes. I milk two at present, 5. Have you anything to do with the wood-chopping? —Yes,

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6. You do not like wood-chopping? —Yes. • 7. Would you rather be outside chopping wood or inside? —Outside. 8. Do you find it tires you very much?— No. 9. Are Miss Hunt and the others of the staff good and kind to you, or nasty?— They have always been kind to me since I have been in the Home. 10. Do you regard this as a prison or as a home? —As a home. 11. When you are cutting wood, does the staff give you a rest if you want it? —Yes. 12. Have you been punished?— Yes; for impudence. 13. What was clone to you?—l was put in the cell once, and sent to bed once, and got dry bread once. 14. Did you try to abscond once?— Yes. 15. Did you get out of the grounds?— Yes. 16. What arrangement had you made with any one?—l made an arrangement with A G to meet in Christchurch. 17. Was she living at this Home then?—No; we made the arrangement at the Samaritan Home. We were there together, before I came here. 18. Who made the arrangement to abscond, you or A ?—lt was both of us. 19. Then you came here leaving her at the Samaritan Home? —Yes. 20. Was it arranged you were to meet on a certain day?—No; we just made up our minds to meet in Christchurch in a month's time. 21. You expected to find her in Christchurch, did you?— Yes. 22. Did you arrange where you were to meet in Christchurch?—No. 23. And because of that you tried to get away that day?— Yes. 24. How long were you away altogether?—l do not know. Mr. Bone caught us. 25. Who was with you?—A little girl named E T . 26. What punishment did you get for absconding? —Dry bread and twelve of the strap. 27. Do you consider you get enough to eat here?— Yes. 28. Do you ever feel hungry?— No. 29. Do you get enough bedding in winter? —Yes. 30. Are your own clothes quite sufficient?— Yes. 31. And apart from this episode when you absconded and got the strap, have you been happy here? —Yes. 32. Have you tried to abscond since? —No. 33. Do you want to abscond now?— No. 34. Where would you rather be, in this Home or where you came from ?—I would rather be here. 35. Have you noticed whether the staff have been kind to the girls as a rule?— They have been kind, I consider. 36. If a girl behaves well here, is she treated well? —Yes. 37. If you went away from here, where would you consider your home was? —I would consider it here. 38. To whom would you go if you had any trouble? —Matron. 39. Have you any complaints to make of any kind? —No. 40. You are quite happy here?— Yes. 41. You know you are here for certain reasons? —Yes. 42. Are you satisfied the training you are getting here is making you a better girl?— Yes. 43. Mr. Salter.] Who was it suggested you should abscond? —A G first put it into my head. 44. You fell in with the idea?— Yes. 45. When you came back and got the strap, did you get strapped pretty severely?— No. 46. You were kept in the cell for how long?—A fortnight. 47. During the fortnight you were in the cell, were you visited by the staff at other times than meal-times ?—Yes. 48. For the whole fortnight?— Yes. 49. Have you ever seen any girls' ears boxed?— Yes, by Matron. 50. With both hands?— No. 51. Have you seen that pretty often?— Only once. 52. Have you heard of others?— No. 53. You have been asked all these questions before? —Yes. 54. In the presence of the Matron?— Yes. 55. You would not like to say anything against the Matron in her presence?—Oh, yes; if it was not right I would say it. 56. Do you know anything about the reception-room?-—Yes. 57. Have you been taken there? —Yes, when I first came here. 58. When you girls turn over in your beds at night in the dormitory, does the attendant call out to you ?—Not since I have been here. 59. Have you ever heard girls complain about the food?—I have heard some, but have never taken any notice of it. 60. You are satisfied with the bread and jam and bread and dripping you get?— Yes. M P examined on oath. 1. Mr. Russell.] What is your age ?^-Eighteen years in May. 2. You have been here about sixteen months?— Yes. 3. Generally, are you happy here, or the reverse?— Sometimes happy and sometimes not.

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4. Are you treated well by the Matron and staff here?— Yes. 5. Have you any complaint to make about the Matron or staff? —No. 6. Do you do wood-chopping? —Yes. 7. Is that very hard work? —Sometimes I find it hard. 8. And sometimes not?— Yes. 9. Are you allowed to rest if you are tired? —Yes. 10. How often did you chop wood last week, for instance? —Once. 11. Do you get plenty of time to play?— Yes. 12. Do you get plenty of food? —Yes. 13. And bed-clothes enough?—Tcould do with another blanket. 14. How many blankets have you in the winter-time? —Three or four. I cannot remember exactly. 15. Have you enough personal clothing, and is it kept separate from the others? —Yes. 16. Have you been punished at all?— Yes; for impudence. 17. Have you any complaints to make about the staff?— No. 18. Are they kind to you? —Yes. 19. You know you are in here for your own good? —Yes. 2D. Are you satisfied the training here is likely to do you good ?-■-Yes, it has done me a lot of good. 21.' If you left here would you regard this as a place to come back to?— Yes. .22. You would like to come back and see the Matron?-—Yes. 23. Mr. Salter.] What makes you unhappy sometimes? —When I think of my people. 24. There is nothing about the Home that makes you unhappy ?—No. 25. Have you been strapped at all? —No. 26. How long have you been in the cell?—I cannot tell you. 27. Have you been in between one meal and another? —No. 28. Do you scrub upstairs in winter-time? —Yes. 29. What sort of water do you use in winter ?—Hot water. 30. In your bare feet? —Yes. 31. Have you seen girls having their ears boxed?— Yes; by Matron. 32. Pretty severely?— She deserved it. 33. Was it a hard blow? —I did not think it very hard. 34. First with one hand and then the other ?—No, only one hand. 35. You do wood-cutting because you have to do it? —Yes. 36. You do not care for it?— No. 37. Have you heard the staff say to the girls, " You must not get tired until 5 o'clock " ?—Yes. 38. Have you been working at the lupins?— Yes. 39. Were you able to get water when there? —Yes. 40. Suppose the person who ought to take the water forgot to do so, were you allowed to come back for it?— No. 41. Then, sometimes you had to work at the lupins without drinking at all?—No, we had some sent over. 42. Do you know the reception-room?— Yes, but I have not been there. M—■ — S examined on oath. 1. Mr. Russell.] What is your age?—l am fifteen years. 2. You have been in this Home two years?— Yes. 3. Are you in the first or second division? —Second. 4. Do you help at wood-chopping ?—Yes. 5. Do you object to that very much?— No. 6. Do you find it very hard work?— Not very hard. 7. Do the staff drive you when at that work?— No. 8. Do they give you time to rest?— Yes. 9. I suppose some of the girls would rest the whole time if they had a chance? —Yes. 10. Have you heard Miss Hunt or the staff say, " Now, girls, it is no use getting tired yet "1 —Yes. 11. Was that remark addressed who were very tired from the start perhaps?-—-Yes. 12. Not to the girls generally? —No. 13. Do the staff speak nicely to you?— Yes. 14. Are they ever sharp with you?— When we deserve it. 15. But if a girl does well, the staff treat her nicely?— Yes. 16. Is there any one amongst the staff you do not like? —No. " 17. Do they make any difference amongst the girls?— No. 18. There is no favouritism?— No. 19. Have you been punished?— Yes; for impudence. 20. Have you been put in the cell?— Yes. '21. Have you seen the Matron box a girl's ears or strike her on the shoulders?—l have, on the shoulders. _>.. - 22. Have you ever seen the Matron hit a girl on the ears or head? —No. 23. What about the food here?— The food is all right. 24. You get enough to eat?— Yes. 25. Have you ever seen girls eat raw artichokes because they had not enough bread and butter? -No. 26. Are the blankets all right in winter-time?— Yes.

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27. What about your own clothes?—l have my own clothes. 28. Do you get plenty of time for play and recreation?— Yes. 29. Does the wood-chopping prevent you from learning your lessons, or does it make you so tired that you cannot do your school-work ?—No. 30. If you were leaving here, how would you regard this place?—As a home. 31. You would come back here if you could?— Yes. 32. And supposing you had any troubles, to whom would you take them?—To the Matron. 33. You like Matron?— Yes. 34. Mr. Salter.] You had a chat about all these matters last night with Mr. Russell and the Matron ?—Yes. 35. You had a good chat about it? —Yes. 36. You knew exactly what you were going to say when you came here to-day?—l knew what I came here for. 37. You knew you would be asked the same questions as Mr. Russell had asked you in Mrs. Branting's presence?—l did not know it. 38. But you knew you were coming before Mr. Bishop? —Yes. 39. Do you find the wood-cutting fairly hard? —It is all right for me. 40. Why did you say you did not find it very hard ?—lt is just the same as it always is. 41. And you would rather do that work than inside work?—l would. 42. You said just now you had seen the Matron strike some girls on the back. Are you quite sure you have not seen any girls struck on the ears ? —I have not. 43. Do the girls talk about the bread and jam and bread and dripping, and call it bread and scrape?— Some of them, but not all. 44. How long have you been in the cell at a time?— About four hours. 45. Were you by yourself the whole of that time? —No; the staff came to see me. 46. Have you been in the cell more than once? —Twice. 47. Do you get hot or cold water to scrub with? —There is hot water in the winter, if you want it. There is a hot-water tap to draw it from. 48. And if a girl said the attendant stood by to see you did not get it, would that girl be making a mistake? —Yes. 49. Do you remember the time when there was bad fish on the table? —Yes. 50. Did you eat the fish? —Yes. 51. The Commissioner.] Were you made to eat it?—No; they did not know it was bad. C S examined on oath. 1. Mr. Russell.] What is your age?—l will be nineteen next month. 2. You have been two years in the Home in May?— Yes. 3. Do you chop wood?— Yes. 4. Do you find it very hard work?— No. 5. When the staff are with you, do they give you a rest when you want it?—l have had it. 6. And they do not in any way try to work you too hard?— No. 7. Do you find the staff treat the other girls and yourself the same?— Yes. 8. All here are treated, in exactly the same way?— Yes. 9. And if the girls do well, do the staff treat them well? —Yes. 10. Is the food good here?— Yes. 11. And your bed-clothing? —Yes. 12. Have you any complaints of any kind? —No. 13. Would you sooner be here or in service? —I would sooner be here. 14. Generally, you are happy here?— Yes. 15. Do you consider the Home is doing you good and making you a good woman?— Yes. 16. If you left here, would you regard this place as a home or not?—l would regard it as a home. 17. And if you were in any trouble, to whom would you go?—To Matron, 18. Mr. Salter.] You had a chat with Mr. Russell and Mrs. Branting about the inquiry to-day?— Yes. 19. Did they tell you what to say?— No. 20. Did they tell you you were corning here to-day to give evidence?—No, I knew it. 21. Who told you?— One of the girls. 22. When did you know?— Last night. 23. Did you girls go in together to Mrs. Branting's room? —No, one at a time. 24. And you were asked all these questions there? —Yes. 25. And gave your answers? —Yes. 26. So even if you had been unhappy here you would not like to say so before Mrs. Branting? —I would. 27. Mr. Pope was there too?— Yes. 28. Have you been punished here?— Once I was put to bed. 29. Do the girls talk about the bread and jam and bread and dripping as bread and scrape? —Yes. 30. Is it bread and scrape?— Sometimes. 31. You do not get enough dripping or enough jam?— Sometimes. 32. Have you seen jam and sugar, and so forth, kept in bedroom chambers? —Yes. 33. Do you scrub upstairs in winter-time in your bare feet?— Yes. 34. And with cold water?—No, hot water. 35. Always with hot water?— Yes.

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36. Have you had to ask for it?—No, I took it. 37. The Commissioner.] Could any girl get it who wanted it? —Yes. 38. Mr. Salter.] Have ypu seen any girls punished?— Yes. 39. In what way?— They had their ears boxed by Matron. 40. Pretty severely? —No. 41. Hit more than once?— Yes, several times, 42. Have you ever tried to abscond? —No. 43. Have other girls ever asked you to? —No. 44. Do you work amongst the lupins?—-Yes. 45. Were you allowed water over there? —For some time we were, and then it was stopped. A L examined on oath. 1. Mr. Russell.] What is your age? —I am eighteen. 2. You have been eighteen months in the Home?— Yes. 3. Are you in the first or second division I —Second. 4. Do you chop wood ? —Yes. 5. Do you object to that in any way?- -No. 6. Would you rather be outside doing that work, or inside doing house and laundry work? —I do not mind which. 7. Does the work make you very tired?— Sometimes. 8. When you are tired, are you allowed to rest by the staff ?—Yes. 9. Always?— Yes. 10. Have you been punished at all since you have been here?— Yes. 11. I think you lived with an uncle before you came here? —Yes. 12. Would you rather be here or back at your uncle's? —Rather be here. 13. Do you get plenty of food and bed-clothes in winter? —Yes. 14. What about your own clothes?—l have plenty of them. 15. Are the staff generally kind to you? —Yes. 16. Have you any complaints about the staff at all? —No. 17. Are you satisfied that being here is a good thing for you?— Yes. 18. If you left here, would you regard this place as a home or not? —Yes, as a home. 19. And if you had any trouble, to whom would you go? —To Matron. 20. Does the Matron treat you kindly in every way?— Yes. 21. Mr. Salter.] You had a chat with Mr. Russell in Mrs. Branting's presence about this inquiry?— Yes. 22. If you had any feeling against Mrs. Branting you would not say so before her? —Yes. 23. You are quite sure everything here is perfectly satisfactory to you? —Yes. 24. Have you seen the girls punished? —Yes, by getting dry bread. 25. Have you seen the Matron box girls' ears? —Yes. 26. More than once?— Yes. 27. Severely or gently, or how?— Not very hard. 28. Have you ever seen a girl have her head knocked against the wall?— No. 29. Do you have to get up the roots of the trees?— Sometimes. 30. Do you find that pretty hard ?—Sometimes. 31. Do you not feel very tired after this wood-chopping and sawing? —Sometimes, but not always. 32. Have you heard one of the staff.tell the girls not to get tired yet? —No. 33. Have you ever been in the cell? —No. 34. Have you worked at the lupins ?—Yes. 35. Do you get water there ?—lf we do not take water the staff does not allow us to get it. 36. Mr. Russell.] I believe you are rather a tearer at work. Have you ever been asked by the staff not to work so hard? —Yes. 37. You were told you were working too hard? —Yes. 38. How many times have you seen the Matron box girls' ears? —Twice. 39. Did she hit them on the head or shoulders?— Across the ears. 40. What was the girl's name ?—B W , for taking other girls' things. L T examined on oath. 1. Mr. Russell.] What is your age?—l am sixteen years and a half old. 2. You have been eight months here?— Yes. 3. Do you chop wood?— Yes. 4. Do you object to that work?— No. 5. Do you like it?—l do not like it. 6. Does it make you very tired ?—Sometimes. 7. When you are tired, does the staff allow you to rest?— Sometimes. 8. I suppose some of the girls would rest all the time if they could? —Yes. 9. So the staff has to be careful to see they do not do that? —Yes. 10. As a rule, does the staff treat you kindly?— Yes., 11. Are all the girls treated alike?— Yes. 12. You get plenty of food? —Yes. 13. Are your bed-clothes all right?— Yes. 14. And your own clothes? —Yes. 15. Have you any complaints of any kind to make against the staff or the Home?— No.

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16. You know you are here for your own good?— Yes. 17. Do you think, yourself the training here is doing you good?— Yes. 18. Are you content to stay here?— Yes. 19. Are you happy here ?—Yes. 20. Have you plenty of time for play and recreation?— Yes. - 21. Have you any complaint of any kind you wish to make? —No. 22. If you left here, would you regard it as a home, or would you have unpleasant recollections of it?—l would not mind coming here again. 23. If you had any trouble, or wanted a friend, to whom would you go?—To Matron. 24. Mr. Salter.] You were asked all this last night before Mrs. Branting?—Yes. 25. You would not have liked to say anything else whilst she was present?— No. 26. Have you ever been in the cell?— No. 27. Have you ever seen other girls having their ears boxed?—l saw one little girl having her ears boxed the other evening by Matron. 28. Have you ever been in the reception-room?— Yes. 29. Have the girls complained about the food to you?—l have heard them complaining. 30. What about?— Some say they do not get enough and others say the jam is not thick enough, and others say the tea is not good enough. 31. Is there plenty of jam put on?— The food is good and plain. 32. Would you like a little more jam?— Yes. 33. How often do you get butter?— Every Sunday evening. V B examined on oath. 1. Mr. Russell.] What is your age? —Fourteen years. 2. How long have you been in the Home?— Only three months. 3. Have you been happy since you have been here? —Yes. 4. Do the staff treat you kindly ?—Yes, they have been very good to me since I have been here. 5. Is this a happier home than the one you came from?—No; I would rather be at my own home. 6. Have you plenty to eat?— Yes. 7. Have you any complaints of any kind to make? —No. 8. Do you find any of the work too heavy for you?— No. 9. Do you do a bit of wood-chopping?— Yes. 10. Do you find that too hard? —Yes. 11. Have you plenty of time for play? —Yes. 12. You enjoy your play?— Yes. 13. Mr. Salter.] You are not very strong?—l am getting strong. 14. Do you feel strong enough to do wood-chopping?— Yes. 15. Have you seen girls' ears boxed here?— No. 16. Have the girls spoken to you about their bread and dripping and bread and jam?— Yes; they have said they got bread and scrape, and would like a little more jam. 17. Do you think they are justified in saying that?—l think it is quite enough for myself. M J examined on oath. 1. Mr. Russell.] You are sixteen years of age?— Yes. 2. You have been here' about eight months?— Yes. 3. Generally, how have you been treated since you have been here? —Very well. 4. Are you happy and contented? —Yes. 5. Do you cut wood occasionally?— Very seldom. 6. When you do, do you find it very hard?—Nq. 7. Do you mind it? —No. 8. You have plenty of play?— Yes. , 9. And plenty to eat? —Yes. 10. Plenty of clothes?— Yes. 11. What else do you want?— Nothing else. 12. Would you rather stay here, or go back to where you came from?—l would just as soon stay here, I think. y', 13. Is everybody kind to you?— Yes. Thursday, 12th March, 1908. A C—— further examined. , 1. Mr. Russell.] I have called you to repeat to the Commission what you told me the other night in regard to Miss Howden. Do you remember ever being out with Miss Howden at the fowls? —Yes, very often. 2. Had you had on or just before that day a few words with Attendant Mills?— Yes. 3. What about?—A coarse apron. 4. Did you tell Miss Howden you had had some trouble with Miss Mills?— Yes. 5. Did you make any complaint to her that day about the way the staff generally treated you all the time?—No; but on other days I did. 6. When you told Miss Howden you had had some words with Miss Mills about an apron, what did Miss Howden say?— She said it was a hellish place to live in.

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Bit 7, Did you hear her at any time make the same or a similar remark to any other person?— No, I did not hear her, but the girls say so. 8, Did Miss Howden ever ask you why the staff had any down upon you?— Yes, she used to speak to me. -'-■■' 9. Did she ever ask you why you stayed here and put up with it?---Yes, 10. Tell me what she said in her own words? —She asked me why the, staff went on at me,, and why I let them go on at me. 11. Was anything said about standing up for yourself?— Yes, and why I did not take my own part and stand up for myself. 12. Did Miss Howden say anything about the Matron and the rest of the staff?—-She said she could not agree with the staff and the Matron. 13. Did you ask her why she stayed here?— Yes. 14. What did she say?—l cannot tell you exactly. 15. Did she ever talk to you about absconding girls or girls who had attempted to abscond? - —Yes, she used to speak to me about it. 16. In what way?— She used to say why the girls went away —what caused them to go-away. 17. Did she warn you in any way against adopting a similar coufse?-r-No. 18. While you were with Miss Howden, were you ever left so that you could have got away if you liked?— Yes. 19. Have you anything more to say?— No. 2"0. When I saw you about this statement, did I tell you you need not say a word about Miss Howden unless you liked ?—Yes. 21. And that you were free to make a statement or not as you pleased?— Yes. 22. And after that did you make this statement to me?— Yes. 23. The Commissioner .] These statements yotf'have made are true? —Yes. 24. Mr. Salter.] Are you quite sure about tile word " hellish " Miss Howden used? —Yes. 25. Absolutely certain ? —Yes. 26. Where was this statement made? —Outside the fowlhouse. 27. You said you could not exactly remember what Miss Howden said to you about the staff, but you can remember quite well about the other talk that went on with you?— Yes. 28. How can you remember so well what was said in the one case and not in the other ?—The statement made near the fowls was at a time that was necessary. When I was speaking about the staff was at a time that was unnecessary. 29. How long ago?—l should say about four months ago. 30. You undertake to remember exactly what was said four months ago?— Yes, because it was a word to be remembered. Charles August Myhre examined on oath. 1. Mr. Russell.] I think you are a partner in the Christchurch Clothing Factory?— Yes. 2. I think you have had three servants from this Home?— Yes. 3. Do you know the name of the first one?—M N . 4. How long did you have her ?—Six or seven months. 5. So far as morals is concerned, had you any complaint to make against the girl? —None whatever. 6. You have no reason to suppose she was anything but moral?— No. 7. I think you found her bad-tempered?— Yes, and sulky, and in reference therewith I have often wondered how the Matron managed to keep her in check. I have expressed that opinion myself to her. Otherwise she was particularly clean and well-behaved. 8. Was her manner respectful?— Not too respectful, but I put that down to temper. I had her until she came of age, and then, as 1 was living in the suburbs, she left to come into town. 9. Who was the next?—S H . 10. How long did you have her?— She remained with me about fifteen months, until she was over age, and then she left to be married. 11. Did you find her a moral girl?— Yes; I was quite satisfied on that point, 12. And in other ways was she a fairly good servant?— Yes, I have nothing to complain about. I have never complained in my reports to the Government. The inference I gathered from the whole three was that they had had a great amount of teaching so far as cleanliness was concerned. 13. And you believe the training of these girls has been a help to them?—l am absolutely certain of it. My personal experience has shown also they have a great amount of respect for the Matron. They have always spoken in that strain. Fanny Adelaide Spooner examined on oath. L. Mr. Russell.] You are the wife of John Spooner, farmer, of Kirwee?—Yes. 2. You have had two girls from here?— Yes, L T and A T . 3. How long have you had A T ?—Since last August. 4. So far as morality is concerned, have you any reason to doubt but that she is a moral woman?—No reason at all. 5. So far as you know, she is quite a respectable girl?— Quite. 6. And generally a good servant?— Yes, quite a treat. A very good servant. 7. Are you satisfied that is the result of the training she has received here?—l think so. 8. Can you speak in the same way in regard to L — T ?—Yes. She is thoroughly honest, thoroughly truthful, but with a fearful temper. 9: From what you tell us, what opinion have you formed of their treatment here?— That the girl has been very kindly treated. She is very fond of the Matron.

H.—2l.

F. A. SPOONEE.

10. And the other girl? —She worships the ground the Matron walks on. She told, me she never knew what love was until she came to the Matron. They think very highly of the Matron. 11. And have they the same feeling about the Home generally?— Yes; one of the girls said the staff was a little bit hard, but the other girl said the staff was nice. 12. You found the experiment in taking these girls quite satisfactory?— Yes. I would rather have a girl from the Home than from a private house any time. E S examined on oath. 1. Mr. Russell.] You are a Te Oranga girl, at service at St. Albans?—Yes. 2. What is your age?— Nineteen years and a half. 3. How long have you been in the Home? —AbouT eighteen months. 4. During that time did you chop wood?— Yes. 5. Did you find that tired you very much? —No, I seemed to manage it very well. 6. Did you object to doing that work at any time?— No. 7. Did you find it did you good? —Yes; I was always well here. 8. And, generally, did you get good food while here?— Yes. 9. And everything you wanted? —Yes. 10. Are you quite satisfied that the training you have had here has done you good?— Yes.. 11. Do you look upon this as your home? —Yes. 12. And you would have no objection to going back?— No. 13. Have you any complaint at all to make of any one here? —No. 14. Do the staff treat you kindly?— Yes. 15. Are you good friends with the Matron now?— Yes. 16. You'still have that good feeling towards her?— Yes. 17. And if you were in trouble, to whom would you go?—To Matron. 18. How long is it since you left the Home? —Just over three years. A—■— N T—■— examined on oath. 1. Mr. Russell.] You are out at service?— Yes. 2. When did you go out to service?— Six months ago. I was in the Home until then. 3. How long were you in the Home altogether?— Nineteen months. 4. Did you cut wood while here? —Yes. 5. Did you object to cutting wood?— No. 6. Did you like being outside? —Yes. 7. Did you find the work heavy for you at any time?— No. 8. During the time you were cutting, were you allowed to rest by the staff? —Yes. 9. Were the staff generally nice to you?— Yes. 10. And the Matron? —Yes. 11. Are you fond of the Matron?— Yes. 12. Were you happy while here?— Yes. 13. Would you go back again if you had the chance?— Yes. 14. As a matter of fact, do you regard it as a home now when you are out of a place?— Yes. 15. Do you feel that being here has done you any good? —Yes. 16. Have you any complaints of any kind? —No. 17. Mr. Salter.] Were you before Mr. Russell and Mrs. Branting the other evening?— No. 18. No one has spoken to you about this inquiry?— No. 19. No one at all?— No. 20. When you say you did not object to wood-cutting, did you like it? —Yes. 21. Did you do any digging up of the roots of trees?—l was at it about ten minutes once. Then I left it. 22. Why did you leave it?— Digging makes my head ache, and Miss Mills put me on something else. I was subject to headaches. 23. Did you do any chopping of trees at the base?— Yes. 24. Did that make your head ache? —No. I liked that. 25. Have you ever seen girls punished here? —Sometimes. 26. How punished?— Put to becTand put in the cell. 27. Have you seen the Matron strike any of them?—l have seen two have their ears boxed. 28. Did you ever complain yourself about the food? —No, I did not have any fault to find with it. 29. Have you ever heard other girls complain?— Sometimes. 30. What did they say about it?— Sometimes they did not like it. 31. Did they call the bread and jam and bread and dripping bread and scrape?— Some girls do sometimes. 32. Have you ever been in the cell?— Once, for about ten minutes. James Bone examined on oath. 1. Mr. Russell.] I think you are gardener at the Home?— Yes. 2. How long have you been gardener here?—A year and a half. 3. With regard to tree-cutting, how often per month is that done?— Sometimes not once a month. It does not average once a month all the year round. 4. Do you generally superintend all the cutting operations ?—Yes, no tree-cutting is done unless I am there.

J. BONE.]

H.—2l.

5. Did Dr. Moorhouse give you any instructions in regard to the girls not being allowed to lift heavy weights ?—No. 6. Do the girls, so far as you can see, resent the work or like it?— Taking them on the whole, they seem to like it. They do not fight or squabble over it. 7. They are good-tempered, laughing and joking over it?— Yes. 8. When they have to climb a tree to put a rope round it, have they to be forced to go up?— No,, they never give me a chance to go up. 9. Do you see that nothing is done inconsistent with their safety?—l am always there, and tell them exactly what to do. 10. What saws have they got?— One double and one single cross-cut. The double cross-cut is the smallest size that can be got and the single one is medium size. 11. Are the girls very tired at any time? —No, they are always willing to race the staff when they have finished. 12. Have you ever seen them trying to run races after they have finished? —Yes, many a time carrying their tools.and wood as well. 13. They challenge the staff to a race?— Yes. 14. Sometimes they do gardening under you? —Yes. 15. That is lightish work? —Yes. 16. From what you have seen, are the members of the staff hard or easy on the girls?— I have seen no harshness whatever. 17. Have you seen any " nigger-driving " on the part of the staff?— No. 18. You know Official Visitors come here?— Yes. 19. If the girls wish to speak to the Official Visitors have they an opportunity to do so?— Yes, because the staff are never with the girls when the Visitor is talking to them. The Visitor will always go to a girl and speak to her alone. 20. In working with the girls, have you had opportunities to find out or hear if they had any complaints to make?—l have heard none. 21. And generally, so far as you can see, are the girls contented and happy? —They appear to be, 22. If there is any lifting of a heavy weight, who does that?—l do. 23. The girls are not called upon to lift any heavy weight?— No. 24. With regard to the girls driving wedges into the wood, is there anything hard about that?— No. 25. Have they light mauls? —No maul has been used for the last twelve months. 26. How do you drive the wedges?—We do not-use them at all. 27. Do you know the total number of trees that have been cut down?—l suppose something like twenty since I have been here, in eighteen months. 28. Mr. Turner said three trees would make a cord of firewood?—lt would take all that, because the trees are very small on the average. 29. Have you an opportunity of seeing the Matron and staff together a good deal? —Yes. 30. What is the feeling between the staff and the Matron so far as you can see ?—They have always appeared to be on the best of terms. They have a very pleasant way of speaking to each other, so far as I have seen. 31. How does the Matron deal with the girls? Is she good-tempered with them so far as you can see?— Very good-tempered. She is always joking and laughing, and the girls return it. 32. Is there any stiffness on the Matron's part?— No. 33. Mr. Salter.] Who carries the wood from the places where it is split to the yard?—lt ; s sledged down with the horse. 34. After they are split, who carries them ?—They are sledged down. 35. After they are split the girls say they carry them?— They carry them after they are split up into pieces the size of a post. 36. They said it sometimes took eight girls to carry one piece?—l have often carried two or three of them. 37. You undertake to say the feeling between the Matron and staff is perfectly friendly?— Yes. 38. How often do you see the Matron and staff together?— Pretty well every day. 39. For two or three minutes at a time?— Yes, and sometimes two and three times a day. Sometimes the Matron stays out for an hotir. 40. Have you ever heard the girls complaining about their treatment by the staff?— No. 41. They have never spoken to you about it?— No. 42. Mr. Russell.] After this wood is cut up, is it then sledged to its destination? —The roots are. 43. But the wood that is cut? —It is cut into 4ft. and 5 ft. lengths, and then split, and it is then carried by the girls. 44. Could it be true that one piece was so heavy that it took eight girls to carry it?—l have seen three or four girls carrying a piece, but it is not heavy wood. Jessie Macpherson examined on oath. 1. Mr. Russell.] You are an attendant at Te Oranga Home, and you have been here how many years?— Two years. 2. What are you?— Work mistress. .3. I think there are between fifty and six girls in the Home? —Yes, 4. Do you attend to the girls as well?— Yes.

10-H. 21.

H.—2l.

[j. MACPHEBSON

5. With the exception of a few girls, are the majority of them amenable to discipline?— Fairly so. 6. If you could get rid of some half-dozen girls, and put them in some other place away from the others, would there be less trouble in dealing with the rest?—-I think so. 7. Do you find that the influence of those girls is a Bad feature in the Home? —To a certain extent. 8. Are the relations between the staff, you being one, and the Matron good?— Very good, I should say. 9. Do you all loyally co-operate with each other?—l think so. 10. There is no discordant element in the staff at all?— None that I know of. 11. Personally, do you all like the Matron?— Very much indeed, I think. . 12. Is her disposition kindly or otherwise? —Very kindly, I should say. - 13. In dealing with the girls, is she good-tempered or not? —Good-tempered. ,14. Does she combine firmness with good-temper? —Yes. 15. So far as your relations with the other members of the staff and the Matron are concerned, are you happy here ?—Yes. 16. You have nothing to complain of in that respect?— No. 17. And the staff generally work in the same happy way? —1 think so. 18. Each doing her best for the purpose of the Home?— Yes. 19. Are you personally interested in the reformation of girls, altogether apart from your salary ?—I think so. 20. Do you like being here, apart from the pecuniary advantage it gives you?—l do. 21. Do you think the girls are deriving any benefit from your own and the other members of the staff's teaching? —I certainly have seen several improvements. I do not think the girls are worse now than when I came here. They are better. 22. Do you find that as time goes on they become more tractable? —Yes. 23. And more respectful in manner than when they first come?— Some of them do. 24. And the others are hard cases?— Some of them are rather better when they come, but I suppose they have not shown themselves. 25. Have the girls at any time ever complained about not getting food enough?— Yes. 26. Many of them? —Just a few; not many. 27. In your opinion, is the food given to them sufficient in quantity for an ordinary healthy girl? —I think so. I have often wondered what they do with it all. 28. Generally, are the girls very cheerful or depressed?— Very cheerful—a little too much sometimes. 29. Do you find any trouble in keeping their tongues quiet?— Yes, a very great deal of trouble. 30. Talking during meal-times is prohibited?— Yes. 31. Does some one read a book during meals?—-Yes, one of the girls. 32. And I think if a girl talks she is sent out?— Occasionally; not always. 33. Why do you make a distinction? —If a girl is spoken to two or three times, then we send her out, 34. And they lose the meal?—No; they can take the meal with them. If the meal is not served when the girl leaves the room it is sent out to her to eat in the passage. 35. One or two of the earlier girls have sworn that they have been sent out of the room for talking when they have just started dinner, and have had nothing at all to eat until tea-time: is that true? —I have not sent any out like that. 36. Have you seen any treated like that? —I am not there when the other staff is taking the meal. About a fortnight or three weeks ago a girl started to talk before dinner came in. I told her to go out in the passage and take her dinner with her. She refused to take her dinner and she did go without a meal until tea-time. 37. Do you find the girls have any fear of the Matron, as a rule?— No. 38. Generally, the Matron is kind to them? —Very kind, I think. 39. And I suppose firm with them when occasion arises?— Yes. 40. And the girls know that? —Yes. 41. Do you consider that more facilities for isolating the worst of the girls are wanted here?— Yes. 42. Mr. Salter.] Do you know whether punishments are inflicted upon the girls by members of the staff? —The staff sometimes ■"will tell a girl she is to go a piece less for her tea or her breakfast, and sometimes make them take porridge without sugar and also put them in the cell. 43. You sometimes deprive them of their food as a punishment?— Sometimes one piece of bread less for their tea —three instead of four pieces. 44. Do the members of the staff put the girls in the cell as a punishment without reference to the Matron?— Yes; the Matron is not always at hand. 45. Is it reported to the Matron afterwards? —Yes; the Matron knows. 46. Do you know anything about girls not having been visited for two hours whilst in the cell? —I would not like to be too certain about that. 47. Do you think it is so?- —I think it is every two hours. Sometimes more frequently. 48. It may be a little longer? —It may be. 49. Some of the girls said they were not visited during the whole morning; that would be four hours? —But there would be some one overlooking them. 50. How do you mean? —Miss Hunt's office. 51. But if a girl is in the cell with the door locked, the clerk in the office could'have no supervision over her? —But if a girl is in the cell with the door locked she is visited at meal-times and also about an hour afterwards for the removal of the dishes.

J. MACPHEBSON.j

H— 2l.

52. But a girl might go into the cell at 8 in the morning, after breakfast, and remain there until dinner-time: that would be four hours? —Usually 1 used to go out just after the girls went into school; that is about 9.30, and then at noon again. 53. That would be over two hours? —Two hours and a half. 54. You said the relations existing between the Matron and the staff were good? —Yes. 55. Are there no exceptions to that?— Not that I know of. 56. Have you ever heard some members of the staff speak of the Matron in not very flattering terms? —I really cannot, say 1 have. 57. Is the Matron in the habit of discussing one member of the staff with another, pointing out her faults? —No; she does not, so far as I know. 58. I believe you are dressmaker here? —Yes. 59. Do you make dresses for the members of the staff? —No. 60. Have you made a dress for the Matron? —No. 61. In the general work which should legitimately be done by the dressmaker in the establishment?—l have never made a dress for Matron. I have made a blouse for her. 62. As part of your work here?— Yes. 63. And in your own time? —No. 64. Have you heard the girls speak of the bread and jam and bread and dripping as bread and scrape?— Yes. 65. Have they any reason for speaking like that ?—Sometimes it is very much thinner than others; then they may have reason perhaps. 66. Honestly, do you not think the dripping and jam on the bread is sometimes scantily put on? —Yes; I would like more myself sometimes; but not always. 67. Do you yourself know anything about the Matron boxing girls' ears? —I have never seen her do so. 68. Have you heard the Matron speak to the girls roughly, calling them "beasts," "great hulking hulls," and that kind of thing?—No; I have not heard that kind of expression from the Matron to the girls. 69. Have you heard expressions equally objectionable?—l cannot call them to mind. 70. Do you know whether talking is absolutely prohibited during work-time?—ln the workroom I used to try and keep silence, because, of course, the girls could not attend to their work properly, but unless I put aside my work and took out a piece of paper and pencil I did not get it. 71. Would you advocate girls sitting in a workroom and working in total silence? —Yes. 72. It would be pretty hard on the girls, would it not? —I have had to do it myself. 73. The Commissioner.] I may take it you are satisfied with your position?— Yes. 74. My Commission directs me to inquire as to the duties of the staff, and whether or not such duties, and the conditions under which they are performed, entail any undue hardship : do you know any case amongst the staff in which you think the duties are unbecoming or extra hard ?■— No. 75. You cannot suggest anything?— No. 76. Can you suggest any weakness in the institution owing to the lack of proper accommodation, or anything of that sort?—W T e certainly have not sufficient accommodation. 77. In what direction do you think that is particularly needed? —I have not thought about it. 78. Are the attendants properly housed in the matter of bedroom and sitting-room accommodation ?—Yes, very comfortably. 79. Have you had your attention drawn to the fact that bedroom chambers are used as receptacles for food ?—Yes. 80. How long has that obtained here?—lt was done when I came here. 81. And it has simply been carried on since? —Yes. 82. Does it strike you as a proper sort of thing?—lt struck me as being rather extraordinary. 83. And scarcely proper. Do you think it unbecoming?— Well, I suppose it really is. 84. You certainly would not identify these vessels as being at all cognate to food?-—-No. 85. Has it been the subject of remark, within your hearing, amongst, the staff?—l think we have all got so accustomed to it that no remark is made now. Alice Moorhouse examined on oath. 1. Mr. Russell.] You are a duly qualified medical practitioner, of Christchurch?—Yes. 2. I think you are Medical Officer for this Home? —Yes. 3. How long have you been such?—l think, about two years. 4. A good deal has been said about wood-chopping not being a proper employment for girls, and we have had a lot of evidence that the girls like it: do you say there is anything wrong in that for these girls?— Not done judiciously, as I think it is here. I spoke to the Matron about it, and she assured me the girls were not overworked in any way, and that there was a man to see that they did not lift heavy weights. I think it is very good, for them. 5. Have you found their health improving after they come here? —Decidedly. 6. Do you know whether they gain in weight, as a rule?—l should say they did from appearances. I have not weighed them. 7. Are you satisfied from their general appearance that the girls are in good health?—l say their health is good, except in some cases, for diseases contracted before they come here. 8; But apart from that?— Yes, decidedly good. 9. So you have not considered it necessary to stop any work because it injured the girls?— No. 10. On the contrary, you have found a decided improvement in them? —Decidedly.

H.—2l.

[a. moobhouse.

11. You have had a good opportunity of seeing the methods adopted in the treatment of these girls by the Matron and staff? —Yes. 12. Are you satisfied that the conditions here as carried out by the Matron and staff are all that could be wished for the purpose of improving these girls mentally and physically? —Quite satisfied. I am not satisfied with the Home, because I want additions to the buildings, but I am satisfied, so far as the Matron's administration is concerned. I think she does the very best with her limited accommodation, but I do think more accommodation is wanted, so that the girls could be separated. 13. The Commissioner.] You want more facilities for classification? —Yes, but I think, with the facilities, she has managed excellently. 14. Mr. Russell.] Some complaint has been made as to the food. You have seen the food from time to time? —Yes, and tasted it. It is very nice. 15. You are quite satisfied, as Medical Officer, there is no legitimate grounds for complaint on that score?— Not so far as I have seen. I have gone into the kitchen on every visit. I have inspected the various pots, and tasted the food on occasions, and I have been with the girls when they have been eating it. It is very good plain food. 16. There was no chance of preparation before you came?— No. 17. You do not encourage a large amount of meat being given to the girls? —Suffering as some of the girls do from certain bad habits, I have told the Matron to give them no meat, or, at least, a very limited quantity, but plenty of other food. 18. From what you have seen, are the girls happy here?— Very, I should say, judging from the jovial way they greet me. I paid a surprise visit one evening with Miss McLean, Inspector of Mental Hospitals, and we were particularly struck with the cheerfulness of the girls. They seemed absolutely full of fun and mischief. When we went into the dormitory the girls were in their nightgowns, and three of them bounced out from behind a' door at us, and the Matron and they seemed full of fun. One caught hold of the Matron's hand and chaffed her, and another passed a remark, and Miss McLean, and I were both pleased at the freedom, with which they behaved with the Matron. We thought it showed absolute confidence in the Matron, and an entire absence of fear. 19. Do you think the Matron has those qualities a woman should have here?—l think so. I think she is severe when necessary, but I think also she is a kind motherly woman, who goes into the girls' troubles, and does her best to advise and help them. 20. Have you had an opportunity of seeing whether the staff loyally co-operate with the Matron in helping the girls?—So far as I can judge, I think they do. I have only the Matron and Miss Hunt and Miss Harrison to do with. They all seem to uphold the Matron's authority, and to speak well of her. 21. Have you ever noticed the girls frightened or in fear of the staff?— Not the least. They are rather bold sometimes. 22. Generally, do you consider that anything that could be done here for the girls to help them upwards is being done, putting aside the question of classification? —I do think so. 23. Something has been said from time to time about a room which the Matron uses for the purpose of examining these girls : do you think that is necessary or desirable in the interests of health and sanitation? —Absolutely necessary. It is a room in which the girls can be examined privately, away from the other giris, and it is quite necessary they should be so examined. Then it is reported to me, and I see any girl if necessary. I see them myself in that room. 24. Do you know of your own knowledge whether the Matron has gone to any trouble and pains to get these girls well?—I know she has. I know girls have gone to her themselves and asked her to help them. 25. There is nothing to object to in that room?— Nothing, and it is absolutely necessary. 26. And it is not work, any woman would undertake if she could possibly help it?— Certainly not. 27. The Commissioner.] The diseases are all venereal? —Yes. 28. Mr. Russell.] And it can be nothing to the Matron's discredit that she does her best to get the girls rid of that disease?—lt would be absolutely to her discredit if she did not. 29. Mr. Salter.] Do you not think that all examinations of that kind should be made by the Medical Officer? —I~do see them. 30. Is it necessary for the Matro"ii to examine them as well as you ?—I only pay a visit once a month, and if the Matron did not examine them on admission a girl might have to wait over three weeks. 31. Do you not think that as soon as a girl came in requiring attention in that way you should be summoned to come at once?—l think the Matron is acting in the position of nurse in that case, and it is her duty to make an examination and see the girls sometimes and report it to me. 32. Have you seen and tested the bread and dripping and bread and jam?—l have not tasted the bread and dripping, but I like it very much. I have it frequently in my own house. 33. Have you. .seen it spread for them?—l saw them eating it one night, and thought it quite good and wholesome. 34. What have you to say in reference to the Matron boxing girls' ears?—l strongly object to it. I think it is very unwise. 35. There should be no hitting about the head at all?— None. 36. Mr. Russell.] Have you ever noticed any girl who has developed any symptoms which would show her ears had been boxed? —Not the slightest symptom. 37. Mr. Salter.] One girl stated here that she had mentioned to you that her ears had been boxed, and that she had had a buzzing in the ears as a consequence?—l remember it. Her name was A , an extremely violent girl, who had been fighting with three other members of the

H.—2l.

A. MOOBHOtJSE.

institution. She threatened another with a spade. She was extremely unmanageable, and I think the Matron had very grave provocation, and she did on that occasion hit the girl on the plait in the back of the head. The girl complained to me, and I listened to what she said, and she told me she was quite deaf. I had not my instruments with me for testing her hearing because I knew nothing about this ear trouble. I tested the girl as well as I could without instruments, and I was -perfectly satisfied her hearing was not in the least bit impaired, nor was there any symjjtom of injury. I whispered to the girl to shut the door, and she did so at once. 38. The Commissioner.] She did not complain to you on any subsequent occasion? —Not at all. I then told Miss Hunt, the Matron being out, that I thought it very unwise, and T hoped it would not be repeated. 39. I suppose I may assume you take a real live interest in the institution as a reforming agency, apart from your position as Medical Officer?—l do. 40. We will take the case of girls anywhere from eighteen to twenty years of age —some of them almost immediately prior to discharge as being of the statutory age —what is your opinion of corporal punishment on young women? —I do not approve of it. 41. Personally, I may say at once I have not been able to bring my mind to see an}' possible benefit from it. Have you in your mind thought of any possible benefit that could result to any young woman, either in her thoughts or mode of living, after receiving corporal punishment,—that is, apart altogether from the Matron, who is simply carrying out a system approved of by the Department ?—I think some of these girls' characters are so depraved that it is impossible to appeal to their feelings by reasoning or by any kind of advice. I think, in some cases physical pain is the only way to make them feel. Personally, I strongly disapprove of any corporal punishment, and I think it is a great pity it should be used, 42. And it might be extremely brutalising without having any corresponding advantage?— Yes. But in some cases it seems impossible to deal otherwise with their natures. As a matter of principle, 1 think it is a great mistake, and I think it is a dreadful thing it has to be done. 43. It is something that does not appeal to one's mind as being the correct thing?— Not at all. 44. There is another matter which has probably been the moving cause of this public feeling— this hair-cutting: have you any opinion about that?—l think it is a very good thing. If it keeps them from running away, and saves them from all the other punishments that accrue, it does not matter. It will grow very quickly. 45. You do not suggest any other effect it may have on a girl's disposition or mind?— No. 1 had my hair cut off when I was a girl, and I thought it very nice. It saved a lot of trouble. 46. Yours was not cut off as a punishment? —No, it was not. 47. It does not suggest itself to your mind as having any bad effect on tSie girls? —No, I do not think so. 48. A great deal has been said during the course of the inquiry about the examination in this reception-room: I suppose any qualified nurse makes an examination of that nature in certain cases?—lt is only an external examination such as a nurse would make, and then, if everything is not quite right, it is reported to me. 49. I am really here to try'and improve the system if it is capable of improvement: would you suggest that it might be more desirable that that examination should be made by you, and that you should be sent for for the purpose I —l think in the majority of the cases the girls would greatly prefer the Matron, if they know her. 50. At any rate, it does not suggest itself to your mind as an improper or undesirable process?—No at all. 51. Has the Matron shown to you, apart from her duties, that she has a keen idea of nursing and the care of young people?-—She certainly has. She has had a good deal of experience, being a doctor's widow. But, of course, this is no place for nursing, and when anybody is ill they are removed to the Hospital. 52. Is there much masturbation amongst the girls?—A great deal. 53. That would necessitate very constant and strict and almost excessive supervision?—lt does, both day and night, and plenty of open-air exercise—actual physical exercise to tire them out during the day. I advise it. strongly. 54. Between what ages do you find that vice mainly obtains ?—I should think, amongst girls over fifteen here. 55. Has that habit been contracted mainly before admission here or during residence here? —Before admission. 56. Something has been said about certain of the staff repeatedly calling out to the girls if they turned over in bed : do you think, if there is any suspicion of anything improper as the result of a girl turning over in bed, it would be necessary to frequently supervise the beds ?—Yes, it must be done. 57. It is a secret vice, and must be dealt with in a special way?— Yes. 58. One matter particularly remitted to me by my Commission is the question of classification, and you touched on that just now. Would you kindly give me in detail the lines on which you think the improvement in classification should go?—I really have not thought about it to give it to you to-day. 59. Could you give it to me at- any time later on?— Yes, if you would allow me to draw it up. 60. To my mind, it goes to the very root of the treatment. If you have not facilities for effective classification you cannot have a perfect system?—l think it is such a pity that the girls who are moral should have to mix with, the girls who are thieves and who have other vices. It is impossible to separate them here in the classes. 61. We know these vices are very easily communicated? —Very easily. 62. After all, it is only a matter of expense?— Yes.

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[A. MOOBHOUSE.

63. And if the State undertakes the duty you think the State should do it. properly?— Yes. 64. If you will let me have your statement in writing 1 should value it very much? —Yes. 65. It has been stated in the public Press that a certain girl was sent to the Hospital as a result of neglect: do you know anything about that case? —Yes, I think her name was E S . She was a girl who had run away from her situation, and had been scouring the country for three weeks, and living a very immoral life. She was brought back, here and punished. 66. How long after she got back was it when you saw her? —About ten days. 67. What was her physical condition then? —Mrs. Branting sent for me. The girl then had a high temperature, quick pulse, and general abdominal tenderness. She had been complaining of headache for a week before, and she was sick. J had not had the girl under observation before, and I could not say definitely what it was; but I saw it was something serious, and I said she must be removed instantly to the Hospital. I rang up the Hospital at once, and they said they would take her next day. I gave directions for her treatment and. removal to the first-class dormitory. An attendant stayed up all night with her, and treated her correctly, and the following day she was removed to the Hospital and made a good recovery. They could not say what it was at first, and then they said it was appendicitis. She had the symptoms for three days. 68. You would not blame any person for anything in connection with that?— Absolutely no one was to blame. 69. There is one thing that has always struck me in connection with the various institutions with which I have had to do. Theoretically, of course, they are all for reforming these young people, but we know as a matter of fact that in many instances they reach the age of twenty-one with very little reformation from a strictly moral point of view. Under our present law, whatever may have been the negative results of the reformation, these people have to be discharged at twentyone. Does that not strike you as a great waste of material and energy, and have you thought of any means by which this class, in which there has been an absolute failure of reformation, could be dealt with by the State after twenty-one? —I have not thought of that question. I think a great many are very much benefited, and lead very good lives, and make most excellent members of society. 70. Was E S in the cell when you visited her? Do you know what they call the cell here? —Yes, it is a nice airy little room, and gets plenty of sun. I would not mind sleeping in it at all. But for the mere name of cell, there could be no objection at all to it. 71. It is a room in the institution used for the purposes of a cell? —Yes. It is lighted from above. 72. You could not see anything dangerous to a girl's health through being in the cell?— No. It is no worse than locking a girl in her bedroom, except that it is bare of furniture. The girl had a very comfortable shake-down. When I saw her the door was open and the sun was streaming in. The girl had a cup of milk beside her, and the Matron told me she encouraged the staff to visit the girl. 73. You would not connect her condition with anything that, happened in the cell?— Not at all. She was better in the cell, where she was away from all the noise of- the institution, than she would have been in the general dormitory. 7.4. Are you in favour of the deprivation of food as a form of punishment? —No. It is very unwise. 75. And it is not done under your orders? —Certainly not. The following suggestions were subsequently received from Dr. Alice Moorhouse re classification : — Dear Sir,— Christchurch, 21st March, 1908. Concerning the classification for suitable management and training of the inmates of Te Oranga Home, I think that there should be four classes, i.e., — Class IV, or the Probationary Class, where all girls should be placed on admission to the institution and remain under supervision until the Matron can decide into which class the girls should be placed. Class 111, where all the girls who are really viciously bad and immoral should be placed, so tha/b they can be kept from harming the other girls in body or mind, and also be kept under strict discipline and supervision, until they have shown themselves fit, to be advanced to Class 11. Class 11, for a slightly better class of girl to be placed, and girls from Class 111 to be moved as a reward for general improvement andgood conduct. Class I, for those girls who have really improved, and who are almost fit to go out into service. Privileges and pocket-money to increase in each class from Class 111 upwards to Class I, so as to be an inducement for the girls to try and improve and work up to the first class. If prizes were given in each class for good conduct, the best-made cakes and scones, the bestkept garden, the best sewing and darning, it would give the girls an interest in their work. I think that a proper scale of punishments should be printed and placed in each dormitory, so that the inmates may know that for a certain fault a definite punishment follows—for instance, if a girl absconds, or attempts to do so, her hair should be cut and kept short for one month. This would appeal to their vanity, and prevent many from trying to run away. For the above classification, extra accommodation would have to be built: but this could be arranged now as the proposed new buildings have not been started.—Yours faithfully, Mr. Bishop. Alice Moorhouse. Clara Mills examined on oath. 1. Mr. Russell.] You have been an attendant at Te Oranga for how long?— Six years. 2. Are you comfortable here? —Oh yes. 3. Have you any complaints or suggestions to make in regard to your own comfort?— No. 4. How do you get on with the other members of the staff ?—Very well.

C. MILLS.]

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5. You are all cordial to each other? —Yes. 6. And all co-operate to promote the common good ?•—Yes. 7. Apart from your salary, do you take an interest in the work here, as a woman?— Yes, I do. 8. What are the relations between the staff and the Matron? —Very cordial. She is very good to the staff. 9. Are you holding anything back? Are you friendly with the Matron yourself?— Yes. 10. Generally, in your opinion, have the girls any legitimate cause of complaint as to the way they are treated here? —So far as I know, they have none. 11. Are the girls happy here?— They always seem happy enough. 12. Are they depressed or lively?-—I have never seen them depressed. They are generally lively. 13. Have they any fear of the staff, or do they take a joke with them?— They joke with the staff. They are in no fear of them. 14. So long as the girls behave well, is the discipline very severe upon them here? No. 15. Have they much freedom?— Yes, as much as we can allow them. 16. Do they have plenty of games and recreation? —Yes, they have three afternoons a week, and they play tennis and croquet in the summer. They have music and singing, and they do fancy work. 17. So long as they do not attempt to get away, and conform to the rules, is there any difference between this Home and any other private home ?—I do not think so. 18. Is there anything of a prison about it, barring the fact that the girls are not allowed to go away?— That is the only thing—the doors being locked. 19. Is there any alteration you could suggest in regard to the Matron's method of dealing with the girls? Ts she naturally a good tempered woman?— Yes. I have never seen her in a bad temper. 20. And yet firm, I think, when necessity arises?— Yes. The moment the Matron appears on the scene the girls are around her hanging on. 21. With regard to wood-chopping, from, what you can see, are the girls sad at having to do that? —They never struck me as being sad. They do not do a great deal of it. They take their time. 22. When they come back, do they appear to be gloomy and depressed?—No ; they are always, cheerful to me. 23. Have you seen them racing back from the wood-chopping?—No; they just quietly walk back. They might race amongst themselves, but I never take any notice of that, They are always up to fun of some sort. 24. When they are out there, are they driven at all?—I never drive them, and I have never known anybody else to drive them. I have been out with them two years. 25. Do you consider the food they get sufficient in quantity?— Yes. I often wonder how they can eat as much as they do. 26. Sometimes the jam is not as thick as it might be?—l never noticed it. 27. Who is responsible for that? —That is done in the kitchen. I never go into the kitchen. 28. Of course you get some complaints from the girls about the food ?—At times we hear them grumbling, but they are always grumbling a little about something or other. I have never taken any notice of it, 29. Somebody reads at meal-times?— Yes, except when I take meals, and then I tell a story. 30. If a girl talks, is she sent out of the room?— Yes, and her meal is sent out with her. 31. The suggestion is that the girls are deprived of their meal: is that true?— No. 32. Are the girls here punished at any time unduly?—l do not think so. I have never seen a girl punished unduly. 33. Do you consider yourself that the girls are better after being here?—l think so. 34. Have you any doubt upon that, point? —No doubt whatever. 35. That the moral influence of this Home helps their morals?— Yes. 36. Have you ever seen girls suffering from signs of overwork outside?— Never. 37. Have you ever seen the Matron box a girl's ears?— Never. 38. Have the girls complained of it?—l have heard of it, but I have never seen it. 39. If the girls make a complaint, does the Matron judicially consider it?— Yes, always. 40. And in punishing, does she punish at once, or take time to deal with the girls in severe oases?— She does not beat them directly. I think she leaves that for a day. 41. What is the punishment given for small offences against order?— Getting dry bread: and for calling the staff names, which is a very common occurrence, and for insubordination, they are put in the cell. 42. Is that reported to the Matron?— The moment a girl is put in the cell it is reported to Matron. Very often the staff go to the Matron and report they can do nothing with a girl, and the Matron puts her in the cell. 43. When girls are placed in the cell, are they visited between meal-hours?—So far as I know. I have been out all day for two years. When I have been inside I have visited the girls regularly »very two hours and sometimes oftener. 44. The office is just opposite the cell?— Yes. 45. If a girl is in the cell and the office-window is open, could she be heard in the office, or could she knock on the door?— Yes. 46. The distance from the cell-door to the office-window is not much wider than this room?— No. 47. So far as you know whenever you have put a girl in you have looked after her every two hours?—lf I have been inside. 48. It is said you put a girl in once and forgot all about her all day?—l put a girl in twice because she would not eat dry bread for breakfast. On the following Saturday she was very

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[C. MILLS.

troublesome in the laundry, and acting on Matron's instructions I put her in the cell. That afternoon I was out, and it was 5.30 before I got in, and I had to take tea. Then I had to get my own tea. Later on I heard her knocking. I went out about 7.30. She said she had not had her tea. I told her she must go to bed, and that I would take it up to her, and I did so. The fact of the matter is that the girl did not get her tea when she ought to have got it. That is the only occasion. 49. How long ago is that? —Last January. 50. Mr. Salter.] Did you not put this girl J L in the cell on the 12th November and forget all about her?—l do not remember putting her in except on the two times I have mentioned. 51. Do you remember on one occasion putting her in for the whole day and forgetting about it until tea-time ?—I do not remember anything of the sort. 52. Do you remember that at tea-time a knocking was heard, and you said, " Oh, that is J , I have forgotten all about her? "-—I only remember the two times. I cannot remember any other. 53. Was she not in the cell for two days in succession?—l have no recollection of it. 54. Do you sometimes have to send for the Matron to the laundry ?—Yes; on this occasion I had to send for her. 55. Will you swear that when you have sent for the Matron to the laundry and complained of a girl's conduct the Matron has not boxed her ears ?—I have never seen the Matron once box their ears since I have been here. I should have known it was an unlawful thing, because I know it is against the rules. 56. Did you not consider you were entitled to the position of Sub-matron ?—The position here is different from that of other places where I have been. 57. Did you not complain when Miss Hunt was appointed to the position of Sub-matron that you had not been appointed?—l spoke about it. I thought I ought to have been Sub-matron, and I had an interview with Mr. Pope, and he explained matters to my satisfaction. 58. What hours do you work?—l work from 7 a.m. until 8 p.m., and I have an afternoon and evening a week 59. Have you any complaint to make about the hours being too long?— No. 60. The Commissioner.] Do you think they are too long?— They were shorter hours than I was used to before I came here, and I do not think I ever complained. 61. Do you think they entail any undue hardship upon the staff? —We are all very tired when it comes to 8 o'clock. Igo to bed directly after the girls are in bed. I suppose, really, we are tired. It is not the actual work, but the strain outside, I find most tiring. 62 Mr. Salter.] Do I understand that you made some complaint, and, in fact, grumbled that you had more to do, and that Miss Hunt had practically nothing to do, or words to that effect?—l do not remember. 63. Have you ever spoken to Miss Howden about, your work? —I do not know. Miss Howden was always complaining about her own work, I may have done so. 64. Did you ever say anything to this effect: that the Department would kick up a fine row if they knew Miss Hunt did no morning work?—l do not remember making use of those words. 65. You know a girl named E S ?—Yes. 66. Do you remember her coming back from Timaru?—Yes. 67. In what condition was her health? —She had starved herself before coming back. 68. Was she ill?— Not so far as I knew. 69. You know that shortly after a doctor was sent for to attend to her?—lt was a week or more after. 70. Did you hear the Matron say this girl had been starved whilst she was away, and that she was ill when she came back?—No, I never heard the Matron say that. 71. You are quite sure you did not mention to some of the staff that the Matron had said this about the girl being ill? —The girl was not ill when she came back. She told me on the following Sunday morning that she felt ill. I gave her a very hot bath, under the Matron's instructions, and afterwards the Matron made a pack for her head. 72. Did you think she was in a fit condition when she arrived back from Timaru to be strapped?—l think so. There was nothing wrong with her. She was out on the Saturday night in the front with Miss Dean, who was hosing the garden ; so if she had been sick she could not have been there. 73. Some girls have complained of the way you speak to them. Ts it your habit to be prettyrough with the girls?—l am not rough. If I was rough I should not be able to control them. When I ask them to do a thing I always say to them "If you please," and when they have done it I always say " Thank you." Ido that to teach them manners. 74. You know it has been said Miss Howden made some statements about the Home? —Yes. 75. Did you tell the Matron she had better keep these things hanging over Miss Howden's head, as an inquiry might be held, and that Miss Howden had found out a few things since she had been here? —No, I never said that. 76. Have the girls ever complained to you about their bread and dripping and bread and jam?— No. 77. Have you ever heard the Matron speaking of the girls in a disrespectful manner? —No, I have not. 78. Or of them?— No. 79. The Commissioner.] What suggests itself to you as being the crying need of the institution in the matter of accommodation? —We want another building for classification. 80. What suggests itself to you as the extra accommodation required? —I have never thought of that. If we had another building to put the worst girls in, then we could do a lot with the others. Some of the girls ought to be away from the younger ones.

0. MILLS.]

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81. You know the Department are now having plans prepared? —Yes, and it will be a blessing when the building is up. 82. That will simplify your methods very much?— Yes, because at the present time the older girls influence the younger ones. 83. Have you any doubt in your own mind as to the benefits resulting to the girls from their residence in this place?—l think it is the best thing ever brought into operation. 84. You see the girls improving under your eye?—l do. Any one who has seen the girls when they come in and sees them now would know that. Their maimers are better and they are so much nicer. 85. Do you know of any other instance of a girl being in the cell without being visited? I cannot understand it. 86. Is any particular member of the staff told off to visit them in the cell?— No. Every one is told that a girl is in the cell, and we all pay a visit whenever we have a chance. 87. Then, a girl might have several visits one after the other? —The staff all know the girl is there, and that she must be visited. 88. Do you know of any instance where the Matron has discussed with you any other members of the staff?— She has never discussed other members of the staff with me. Ellen Maria Hunt examined on oath. 1. Mr. Russell.] You are Sub-matron here? —Yes. 2. How long have you been an attendant at the Home? —I came about January, 1904. I came relieving. 3. You have been connected with the Home four years?— Yes. 4. I think if you could get rid of or isolate a certain proportion of the girls here things would go on much better ?—Much easier. 5. I think last week you had F B and E S and a few others isolated from the others : did that help you?— Yes, the Home was much easier to work, and quieter. 6. Are you friendly with the other members of the staff and are they friendly with you?— Yes. 7. Do you, apart from the salary you receive, take a personal interest in helping these girls to a better life?— Yes. That is all lam here for. Without that interest you could not remain. 8. Generally, since you have been here, is it your opinion that the girls gradually improve after being here some time? —Yes. Their conversation and moral tone and everything improves. 9. At first I suppose they are rough, and coarse and wicked? —Yes, and unmanageable. 10. And as time goes on the softening influence of this place improves them in every way?— Yes. 11. Do you think this Home and their training here does assist these girls morally?— Yes; it puts better and purer thoughts into their minds. 12. Are you quite satisfied about that? —Yes. 13. Do you find that all the members of the staff have the same interest in the work that you have?— Yes. 14. They are not here merely for the purpose of salary, but for the purpose of helping the girls ?—Yes. 15. Do you find they co-operate with you loyally to bring about that result?— Yes. 16. Are you all good friends? —Yes. 17. There is no discordant element at all? —No. 18. And your relations with the Matron_ are the same? —Yes, we are on very good terms. 19. Personally, when you are here in charge, do you adopt the Matron's methods in all respects? —Yes. 20. Do you find that she herself gets on well with the girls?— They seem specially fond of her. 21. Do the girls yield obedience to the staff cheerfully in most cases?— Yes. 22. And sometimes you find them contumacious? —Yes; very troublesome. 23. Do you consider the Matron combines the kindness and firmness that are required in dealing with girls of this kind? —Yes. 24. She holds them, I suppose, in check when necessary, and is severe, yet you say they are all fond of her? —Yes. 25. With regard to the physical work the girls are called upon to do, such as wood-chopping, one of the girls said you drove them: is that true? —No; you cannot drive girls. 26. Have you attempted to do so? —No. 27. Do you remember that they are girls and not men? —Yes, and if they get tired I allow them to stop. But some are tired before they start, 28. And you insist upon such girls doing some work? —Yes; doing their share. 29. Some of the girls do too much, and have to be checked? —Yes; there are some who would work too much if you let them. 30. Does the physical health of the girls seem to be all right so far as you can see?— Yes. 31. Do the girls increase in size and weight?— Yes. 32. Have you heard any of the girls making legitimate and reasonable complaints about the food? —No; they have always seemed satisfied. 33. Have you had any exceptions to that rule?— No. 34. It has' been said that girls are occasionally sent out without food because they speak at table: is that true?— Not unless she is warned at the beginning of the meal. 35. If a girl is sent out, is her food not sent out with her? —Only in exceptional cases is a girl sent out without it. Very often the food is left on the table, and the girls come in and eat it afterwards.

11— H. 21.

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[c, m. hunt.

36. You yourself are comfortable? —Yes. 37. Is your accommodation all right?— Yes. 38. Do you find the hours too long?— No. 39. Have you been in good health? —Yes. 40. You do not feel the physical strain here ?—No. 41. Are the children generally happy and contented so far as you can see? —Yes. 42. There is nothing to suggest that they are crushed by discipline?— No. 43. It has been suggested that the Matron talks to members of the staff about other members to their disadvantage: is that so? —No; except in regard to change of work or doing work. 44. It is not correct to say the Matron discusses members of the staff personally ?—No. 45. When the girls are ill, does the Matron look after them?— Yes; sometimes she is up at midnight with them. 46. Are you satisfied that the Matron's heart and soul is in this work? —Yes; she never has a holiday from it except once a year. 47. You. are satisfied that the general training in this Home is lifting these girls from a life of depravity and making them good women? —Yes. 48. Mr. Salter.] Do the members of the staff punish the girls?— Yes. 49. Without first referring the matter to the Matron?— Yes; we put them in, and tell the Matron afterwards. 50. What would members of the staff punish them for?—lf a girl will not work, or is breaking the set rules of the institution. 51. On one occasion you strapped a girl?— Yes. 52. That girl said, in tears, that she would rather have twelve from the Matron than six from you: do you lay it on very heavily?—l was told to strap her, and I strapped, her. 53. And pretty hard?—l strapped her. 54. Some of the girls stated that when out with you you said, " Now, it is not time to get tired yet. Go on with your work " ? —That was sometimes even before we started. 55. You would not say that before they started? —Oh, yes. 56. Their complaint was that you would not let them have any spell or rest whilst at the lupins or wood-chopping. You are pretty strict with them, are you not?— Yes; you must be strict. 57. You do not mix much of the milk of human kindness with it. You are a fairly firm woman ?—Yes. 58. Perhaps a little firmer than you need be? —I do not think so. Some need more than others. 59. Do you know of any case where the girls have been put in the cell, and not visited for over two hours?— The girls are visited, because I generally look round to see who is in. 60. Do you remember on one occasion when the staff were sitting at tea that a knocking was heard from the cell, and Miss Mills said, " Oh, that is J L ; I have forgotten her "?—I cannot remember, without looking it up. 61. You would not look up a conversation ?—No; but I would look up to see what she was put in for. 62. Do you remember Miss Mills coming in late, and this knocking being heard, and Miss Mills saying, "Oh, 1 have forgotten; that is J L "?—I do not remember that. You see, so many go into the cell. 63. You have never heard the girls speak of the bread and dripping and bread and jam as bread and scrape?— They do not complain to me. 64. Do you remember Miss Howden being ill some time ago and the doctor coming down ?— Yes. 65. Did he say she must have some one with her that night?— Not that night. He told me she must have physic, and to meet the different trams for it, which I did. 66. Do you remember the day when Dr. Mikle said Miss Howden must have a nurse that night?—lt was not said to me. 67. Do you know it was necessary for her to have a nurse that night?— The day on the evening of which the nurse came down I went to Caversham to bring a girl. I did not get back until 6, and then I changed and went straight back to town to the theatre, to keep an appointment I had made four weeks before. I did not see Dr. Mikle that day. 68. Do you know of the girls'having a paper containing a reference to the Home and this inquiry?— Yes; Z MeG had it. 69. W 7 hat did you say to them? —Well, I did not find out that they had it until next day. When the other trouble came out I asked L about it, and she told me. 70. Did you tell them not to talk about it?—As the girls came in on Sunday I told them not to talk about it and they said they would not. 71. They got this information from the paper, and not from Miss Howden?—That was the first-class girls, not the second. 72. Do not the first-class girls communicate in any way with the second-class girls?— They do at times. 73. And give them notes? —I have not caught them at it. 74. You know they do it?— They have done it. 75. So news from one class can get to another? —It could, but they would have to be prettysmart to do it. 76. Were these statements about Miss Howden first made to you or to the Matron?— The first statement was made to Miss Mills, and I heard it from Miss Mills. 77. You believed the girls, did you? —Well, I do not say I believe them and I do not say I do not, I did not understand it at all." We told the Matron, and let her decide.

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E. M. HUNT.

78. You know some of the girls are incorrigible liars?—l do. 79. And yet you take their word against that of a member of the staff?—l never said that. 80. What remark did the Matron make about it when you told her? Did she believe it?— She said, " I cannot believe it." 81. Do you know that she acted as though she did believe it?— Not at all. 82. These girls were called in to substantiate these charges against Miss Howden in the presence of the Matron and yourself ?—Yes. 83. What remark did F B make about the Matron then?—l do not know what you refer to. Ido not know that she said anything. She was not making charges against the Matron. 84. Miss Howden asked F B to repeat something she had said about the Matron. Do you remember that?— Yes. 85. Did F B repeat the remark?— Yes. 86. What was it?— Really I cannot tell you so far back what it was. There was a lot of contradicting and high-talking. 87. You absolutely forget what she said?— Yes; they called each other different things. 88. Mr. Russell.] You mean F B and Miss Howden talked such a lot?— Yes, there was a lot of pretty loud talking—all four together, and all excited. 89. Mr. Salter.] Have you ever seen the Matron boxing girls' ears? —Not their ears. 90. What then ?—Their shoulders. 91. And never nearer than that to the ears? —She may have caught a girl on the back of the plait on the head, but not on the ears. 92. Mr. Russell.] How many years ago was that? —About 1905. 93. Is that the only time you have ever seen it?— Yes. J L examined on oath. 1. Mr. Salter.] What is your age?— Nineteen years. 2. How long have you been here? —Fifteen months. 3. You have been in the cell? —Yes. 4. How often? —I cannot tell you. 5. Do you remember in last November being put in twice in succession?— Yes. 6. On the first day, were you let out of the cell? —I was not let out until I got out at bed-time. 7. Were you visited during that day?—l was visited with my meals; that is all. There was one time I was in there I had no breakfast and no dinner. 8. When was that? —I think it was on one of the two days I was in the cell. They forgot about my breakfast and dinner. 9. What time did you have your tea? —I knocked on the wall, and Miss Hunt came in and brought my tea to me. 10. Do you remember what time you went into the cell that morning?— Just after I came downstairs —about 7 o'clock. 11. So you were in the cell from 7 o'clock until tea-time without anything to eat or to drink?— Yes. 12. Have you ever had your ears boxed?— Yes; by Matron. 13. Mr. Russell.] Who brought you down from your dormitory that morning and put you in the cell? —Miss Mills. 14. What were you punished for? —I think, for answering back. 15. The night before? —Yes. 16. And were you ordered to be kept in the cell for two days?— Yes. I said I did not think it was fair, and Miss Mills said it was Matron's orders. 17. What had you answered back the night before?—l had no marks, and complained about it, and I said I had lost my marks unjustly. The staff said I had not, and I answered them back about it. 18. Then you were taken upstairs to your bed? —Yes; and put in the cell next morning. 19. Did any one come to see you at all that day?— No. 20. You knew, of course, when breakfast-time came you ought to have your breakfast?— Yes. 21. Who was in the office on the other side?—l do not know. 22. When you found you had been neglected, did you call out?— No. 23. Why did you not call out when,you found your breakfast had been forgotten? Was anyone in the detention-yard that day?— The cell was locked, and I did not hear anybody. 24. The window was not locked at the top?—lt is closed. 25. Is it not open to let the sun and air come through?— No. 26. Were you hungry when you found you had had no breakfast?—A bit hungry. 27. Were you in a temper?— No. 28. When you found your breakfast did not come, why did you not knock on the door?—I thought I was to go without any breakfast. 29. After breakfast did any one oome? —No. 30. No one came into the yard? —No. 31. When it came to midday dinner, were you hungry?—l was a bit hungry, but I did not say anything. 32. Why did you not knock? —I did not want to trouble them. 33. What time in the evening did they oome and take you out? —Just as the girls were going to bed at 8 o'clock. 34. Who got you then? —I think, Miss Dean. 35. What did she say?—l told Miss Hunt when she came to me at tea-time that I had had no dinner, and she said, " They must have forgotten it. I will bring you some now."

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J L-

36. Did you tell her you had had no breakfast?— Yes; I told her they had forgotten me. 37. Were you in the cell the next day?— Yes. 38. Were you forgotten then? —No. 39. Mr. Salter.] Were you locked in the cell or was the door open?—l was locked in all day. 40. Were you locked in the cell the second day?— Yes, both days. 41. And you were not in the detention-yard at all?— No. I have only twice been in the detention-yard when I have been in the cell. 42. You are absolutely certain you were locked up all day?— Yes. Ellen Maria Hunt further examined. 1. Mr. Russell.] This girl J L has just said that on one occasion in November last she was taken to the cell early in the morning from the dormitory, and that no one came near her until you did late at night, and that she then told you she had had neither breakfast nor dinner : is that true? —No. She may have said, " I have had no tea." Sometimes we do take it out at 6 instead of 5.30. Then I would fetch it. 2. So that the girl on no occasion was left the whole day without attention?—l have never heard of it. 3. She says she told you? —That is not correct. 4. What is the general character of this girl in the Home?— Thoroughly bad, and a great trouble. 5. Truthful?— No. 6. Generally, she is not a girl whose statements one could accept?— Not at all. 7. And you totally deny her statement that she told you on that evening she had had neither breakfast nor dinner ?—She never told me. 8. Mr. Salter.] W T hen the girl says distinctly on oath that she was locked in the cell from early morning until tea-time you are not prepared to swear she was not in the cell all that time ?—I generally know. 9. That is not the point. Are you prepared to say now on your oath that J L was not in the cell that day from morning until night?— She was in. 10. Are you prepared to say the girl is swearing what is untrue if she says she was in without breakfast and dinner? —I do not believe she could be there that time. 11. Are you sure she was not there all day, forgotten?—l am quite sure of it. 12. What makes you sure, because the girls are generally visited?— Yes. 13. It is just possible the girl may have been forgotten?—l do not think so. 14. Mr. Russell.] You are quite sure the girl made no statement to you about having had no breakfast or dinner ?—No; and I think she would have done so. She would be missed at table, and if she is missed at table her meal must be thought of. Friday, 13th March, 1908. Mary Mclntosh examined on oath. 1. Mr. Russell.] What are you now?—l have independent means. 2. I think you were an attendant at the Home? —-Yes, from its commencement. 3. And when did you leave permanently?— Between nineteen and twenty months ago. 4. Then, you were here for some six years?— Yes. 5. Since then did you relieve Matron last April and May?—l was five weeks relieving Matron and two weeks Miss Hunt. 6. When you were here, was the wood-chopping going on all the time? —Yes. 7. Did the girls ever appear to be fatigued and tired over it?—l do not think so. 8. Did they ever make any complaint to you to the effect that they were being knocked up by the work? —No. 9. While you were here, were any complaints made as to the food?— Not to me. 10. Generally, were the girls apparently happy and contented?— Yes. 11. Were the relations between yourself and the staff good? —Yes. 12. Did you all co-operate loyally for the benefit of the inmates?— Yes. 13. There was no pulling crossways on the part of any of you?— Not so far as I saw. 14. Were you friends with the other members of the staff and they with you?— Yes. 15. What were the relations between yourself and the Matron?— Friendly. 16. All the time you were here? —Yes. 17. And so far as you could see, were the relations between the staff and the Matron good?— Yes. 18. Was there apparently a happy concert between them all?— Yes. 19. And, generally, while you were here could you see any cause at all for the children to complain about? —Nothing. 20. Did they complain, as a matter of fact? —Not to me, 21. Did you hear of any complaints?— No. 22. In your opinion, was the Matron's manner in dealing with them correct? —Yes. 23. Is she a kindly disposed woman? —Yes. 24. And able to be severe when necessity arises ?—Yes. 25. Was the health of the children good? —Yes. 26. Was there anything at all about the establishment while you were here that you thought wanted altering?— No.

M. MCINTOSH.]

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27. Mr. Salter.] Have you known girls to be left in the cells without being visited for any length of time? —Not whilst I was here. - 28. Have you ever heard of it? —No. 29. Are you aware that the Matron is in the habit of boxing girls' ears? —I never saw it. 30. Have you ever heard of it?—l have heard of it amongst the girls. 31. Have you any reason to doubt the truth of what they say? —They are not very truthful sometimes. 32. Was the Matron in the habit of speaking to one staff about another staff unfavourably?— I have not heard her. 33. Is it not a fact that the Matron discussed Miss Mills with you on one occasion?— No. 34. You are sure?— Yes. 35. Is it a fact that Miss Mills came to you crying, and asking advice as to what she should do?—I have no recollection of her doing it. 36. Do you know that the Matron is in the habit of taking the word of the girls against the members of the staff ?—When I had any complaints to make about the girls she listened to both sides. 37. You have been living at the Home for the last few days?— Yes. 38. Since this inquiry started? —Yes. 39. As Mrs. Branting's guest? —Yes; I was sent for. 40. At the Government expense?— Yes. 41. Of course, you conversed with Mrs. Branting about the inquiry generally?— Yes, generally speaking, it was talked about. 42. Did the Matron tell you there was no fuss about Te Oranga; it was only caused by one person who wanted her position ?—She never told me that. 43. Or anything of the kind? —No. 44. You are quite clear about that?— Quite clear. 45. From your experience, do you think the food given to the children is satisfactory?— Yes, so far as I know. 46. Have you ever heard them talking about the bread and dripping and bread and jam as bread and scrape?— Yes. 47. Do you think they had any cause to speak like that? —No. 48. When an attendant said the other day that the dripping and jam were scantily spread, you would not agree with her ?—I had the spreading of it for three years, and it was quite consistent with my way of thinking. 49. There was a specimen here the other day where the dripping and jam had evidently quarrelled with the crust, judging by the distance they were apart?— That had been spread since the morning. 50. Yes, but there was no sign of anything near the edge of the bread. Are the pieces always spread like that ?—I cannot say, but it is spread something like that. 51. You think the girls have no cause of complaint at all?—I really do not. 52. I understand you relieved for the Matron?— Yes. 53. Miss Harrison told us the other day that she was the relieving officer?—l was here during Matron's last holidays. 54. Was Miss Harrison supposed to be in charge then? —Yes. 55. Then, she was practically relieving for the Matron and you were helping Miss Harrison? -Yes. 56. Then, it is hardly correct to say you were relieving for the Matron. You were here to assist Miss Harrison, who was relieving?— Yes. 57. Mr. Russell.] Miss Harrison would be in school all the morning and afternoon? —Yes. 58. You had charge of the institution when Miss Harrison was in school?— Yes. 59. You say that for three years you put on the dripping and jam?— Yes. 60. Had you any instructions from the Matron, or any one, to be scrimpy with the children? —No. 61. You used your own discretion? —No; I took orders from the Matron. 62. Were there any instructions to go easy with the dripping and jam?—l spread it as she showed me. 63. If a girl was in the cell, would, not her absence from the tea or dinner table be at once noticed? —Yes. 64. Would it be possible for a girl to be in the cell and be overlooked altogether ? Would not her absence from the meals be at once noticed? —Yes. 65. Mr. Salter.] It is just possible she might be overlooked? —It might be, but it would be hardly possible, because her place would be left vacant. 66. But if a girl said, as one did yesterday, that she was in the cell from first thing in the* morning until tea-time, and that she had no breakfast or dinner and no tea until 8 p.m., would you consider that possible? —I could not believe it. 67. But if she swore that had happened, would you swear that it had not?—l could not absolutely swear, but I could hardly think it was possible to miss three meals in one day. 68. The Commissioner.] It seems to me you have had exceptional opportunities for considering the effect of the institution upon the inmates generally during the time you were here and coming back after a lapse of time in temporary charge. Are you able to say to what extent, in your opinion, the Home has been successful in improving the moral condition of the inmates ?—I think it has been for the good of the inmates. 69. Have you noticed any-improvement in the inmates? —Yes. 70. In what respect particularly?— Since I have been away I have got letters from several of the girls who have been at service, and I have seen them when they came back, and I have seen

H.—2l.

[M. MCINTOSH.

them when I have been down here, and I have seen an improvement in their manners and everything else. 71. They like to keep in touch with the institution and everything belonging to it? —Yes. 72. Generally, after they leave, do they express gratitude for the treatment they have received here? —Yes. 73. Speaking generally, you think the Home has been of great benefit to the girls?— Yes. 74. Have you noticed that particularly on your return to the Home? —Yes; some of the old ones have very much improved during my absence. William Eebce examined on oath. 1. Mr. Eussell.] You are an ironmonger, residing in Christchurch ?—Yes. 2. I think you were asked by the Government to accept the position of Official Visitor to this Home?— Yes, in 1905. I succeeded Mr. Heywood. 3. And for the last two years you have been in touch with the institution?— Yes. 4. I think you not only come here occasionally, but Matron and the others connected with the Home go to you for advice in town ?—Matters are very frequently referred to me, both by the Matron and the Lady Visitors, as it is difficult for me to come up here. 5. From your personal observation, are you satisfied that everything is being done that could be done to assist these girls?— Yes, in my opinion. 6. That is, to assist them both into physical health and into a higher and better moral altitude? —Yes. 7. And in your opinion, is this Home fulfilling that purpose?—To a very large extent. There are improvements in regard to classification which I would like to see. They are in hand now. 8. But you think the experiment has been successful to this extent: in helping the girls to a better position, and making them less immoral, and so on? —Decidedly so. 9. You said something about classification. Do you suggest there is a great necessity for more classification here?— Yes; it has been strongly recommended to the Government by the Matron and the Visitors that there should be another class, and that the system should be changed in regard to classification. 10. The Commissioner.] Do you know now what is proposed to be done? —Yes. 11. Mr. Russell.] And in your opinion, will that meet the requirements of the situation?—lt will depend upon the method of classification, in my opinion. 12. Assuming that the methods of classification suit you, you think the facilities will exist in the new building?—l do. 13. When you have been here, did the children seem to be happy? —Most certainly. lam in the habit of judging facial expressions to some extent, and I certainly think, from the appearance of their faces, the girls are very happy. 14. There has been nothing to suggest, as has been stated, that the girls are slaved to death and generally treated more as little convicts than as girls?—l think that is absurd. 15. Do you think, so far as you can see, that the relations between the staff and the Matron are all that could be desired? —Yes, so far as I can judge. 16. Are you satisfied as to Mrs. Branting's fitness to fill the position of Matron?—l think it would be very hard to get somebody else to fill the position as she does. 17. And you have exceptional opportunities for judging? —I think so. 18. And do you approve of her methods as a mixture of kindness and firmness?— Yes, generally. 19. Are you of opinion that the food given to the girls is sufficient in quantity and quality? —On one or two occasions when I have paid surprise visits the girls have been at meals, and the food seemed to me plain and wholesome. 20. Are you in favour of the present system of corporal punishment as applied indiscriminately to young and old girls ?—Generally speaking, I should like to see corporal punishment dispensed with. It is a very difficult matter to decide. We are only experimenting with these institutions. I have studied the matter somewhat as it occurs in America and Germany and other places, and I find they are endeavouring to dispense with corporal punishment. There, are some few instances where it is absolutely necessary, in my opinion, to use it, but if other means could. be adopted I should prefer to see it abolished. 21. The And, of, course, especially so in respect to young women of twenty? — The only object in having the riglrf to punish them at all, until you have other methods, is as a deterrent to others in the Home. 22. Mr. Russell.] You mean it would be no use to try and thrash a girl of nineteen or twenty into morality, but you think it is necessary to do so to deter others?— Yes. 23. The Commissioner.] Then you have to sacrifice principle for the sake of example?— Yes. B"Ut I think it is possible to devise other means. 24. Mr. Russell.] Have you considered this point: that many of these girls are very impudent, and think nothing of calling the staff " old hags "to their faces? What could you suggest should be done in such cases instead of punishment to prevent all the other girls of the school following that example?— The matter has been discussed by the Visitors with the Matron frequently to see what could be substituted, and we have found it a very difficult question indeed. We are now in hopes that classification will so instil self-respect and hope into the minds of the inmates that we will be able to dispense with it. 25. The Commissioner.] There will be-no necessity, in fact, for that kind of punishment?—l hope not. 26. The inducements to behave will be greater?— Yes, I think so.--27. At any rate, any shortcomings in that direction are the fault of the system, and not of the individual I —Exactly.

W. BBEGE.I

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28. Mr. Salter.] How often do you visit the Home?—On an average, three times a year as Official Visitor; but I have been constantly consulted. 29. What would be the length of your stay here?— About three hours on each occasion. Igo thoroughly into matters here, and inspect the punishment-book and premises generally. 30. Including the kitchen arrangements?— Yes. 31. Have you ever given the girls an opportunity to complain to you about anything that is wrong?—l have had no personal talks with the inmates. I did not think, perhaps, it was wise, considering that the two Lady Visitors constantly attend to that matter. They merely refer questions to me for consideration. Of course, I should be only too happy to give the girls an opportunity did they wish it; but I did not consider it desirable to push that side of the question, considering one of the Visitors is here weekly, and is in constant touch with the inmates. 32. You would probably feel that the girls would be backward in coming forward and speaking voluntarily to the Official Visitor? —I should not think, to a Lady Visitor. 33. We have had evidence that some young women have received as many as twelve cuts with this fairly heavy strap : do you think it is necessary, even if a girl has to be strapped at all, she should receive the full complement fixed by the regulations for absconding?—lt would depend entirely upon the fault committed. 34. Can you conceive any fault a girl could commit which would deserve twelve cuts with the strap?—lf you admit there is to be corporal punishment at all, I can conceive it; but, as I said before, I would prefer to use some other method. 35. Do you agree it would have a bad effect upon a girl to be subjected to corporal punishment at all? —On some individuals it would; with others, again, I think corporal punishment is the only deterrent possible. 36. Do you ever take steps to ascertain whether the entries in the punishment-book are correct entries of what has occurred ?—lf I had had any doubts on that subject I should have written to the Government asking them to dispense with the people in charge. You must trust your officers. 37. If it can be shown that the punishment-book has been incorrectly kept?— That would certainly be a very wrong thing to do. 38. Do you think that cutting down trees such as they have in the grounds would be too hard work for girls of ordinary strength?—l do not think the girls have been overworked. Of course, cutting down trees does sound heavy work, but to the extent to which they are allowed to work here Ido not think it can be looked upon as very serious. I have seen them at work several times, and they never appeared to be overexerting themselves in any way. They seemed to me to be rather enjoying the work than otherwise. Of course, I hold that it is necessary to have physical work in connection with an institution of this kind. That is acknowledged all over the world. 39. The Commissioner.] A very great deal has been said about this hair-cutting as a deterrent: what do you think? —It is a matter of opinion. Ido not think it is such a very serious matter. It apparently has a very strong effect on a girl's behaviour, and, considering that in some countries women sell their hair once a year, I do not think it can be looked upon as very serious. 40. That is a voluntary act?— Yes. 41. The question is, looking to the fact that these young women are wards of the State for the time being, whether it is right? —The whole difficulty is this : It is well known that there are some girls in this Home who are very difficult to handle, and what are you to do when they are rebellious and abscond, and do many things most difficult to correct? One is at one's wits' end to devise some means to prevent them. 42. You probably would come back to the same point as before : you think a perfect system of classification would do away with the necessity to a great extent for any abnormal form of punishment ?—Exactly. 43. I am correct in assuming that you think the great weakness in the classification hitherto has existed from the want of facilities for separating the different classes?— Yes. I think the inmates should be put into three classes, and that would be one of the methods to enable you to dispense with corporal punishment. You would hold out the hope to the girls of going into the highest class if their behaviour was very good. On the other hand, if their behaviour was very bad, they would know they would go into the lowest class. 44. You would start them all in the middle class?— Yes. 45. What would you do with the girls who come in in a state of disease?— They would have to be separated. 46. Then there'should be a fourth class?—l am strongly of the opinion that, just as a first offender should never be sent to gaol, so a girl in that condition should be separated from the others. They should be subject to medical treatment. They are not fit to be inmates until they are in a healthy state. 47. The committing Magistrate would not know at the time of committal that the girl was in a state of disease. She comes here on account of her antecedents and conduct prior to committal? —There should be some means of isolation for them. 48. It really implies a sort of fourth or infirmary class?— Yes; until they are fit to be classified. 49. Have you given any thought to this aspect of the reformatory question : that a number of girls up to the present time, under our existing system, have shown no signs of being reformed sufficiently to justify their being sent forth amongst the community generally with safety at the age of twenty-one, when they are legally entitled to their discharge?—lt is a difficult problem. I should treat these cases on the indeterminate-sentence plan. 50. A point has been raised in regard to the treatment the girls have to undergo, especially after their return after absconding, in the matter of a physical examination by- the Matron. Without expressing any opinion upon it myself, Mr. Salter inclines to the opinion that this physical

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[W. EEECE.

examination should only be undertaken by the Medical Officer. What is your opinion?—l think, probably, it would be as well if the Medical Officer made these examinations. I think it is a question involving more than the Matron, as a lay woman in medical matters, would be able to determine. 51. Then, of course, the Medical Officer would leave instructions with the Matron to make such periodical treatment as she thought desirable? —Yes. 52. You agree with me it should not be a question of expense in radical improvements affecting the wards of the State? —I certainly do; but I find it very difficult to impress that. Elizabeth Dean examined on oath. 1. Mr. Russell.] You are an attendant at this Home? —Yes, for twelve months. 2. From what you have seen of the Home during the twelve months, are the girls contented or discontented ?—Taking them as a whole, I should say they were contented. 3. Do they appear to be happy?— Yes. 4. Do they get plenty of time for play and recreation?—l think so. 5. Are they overworked or overdriven? —I am sure they are not. 6. Are they generally in high spirits, or the reverse? Are they full of fun and laughter, or gloomy and morose? —They are generally full of fun. 7. Are you good friends with the other members of the staff?— Yes. 8. There is no quarrelling of any kind?—No, I do not quarrel with the other members of the staff. 9. Do they quarrel with you? —No. 10. Do you all work and pull together for the common good?—I think so. 11. Are you good friends with the Matron as well? —Yes. 12. Are the children fond of her? —Yes. 13. Is there any member of the staff that the children have an aversion to?—I do not think so. 14. You have no knowledge of it if they have?— No. 15. Does the wood-chopping seem to knock the children up?—l do not think so. 16. In your opinion, is the food sufficient? —Yes. 17. Have you been here long enough to form the opinion that the girls are improved by being here? Are they less rough after they have been here a few months?—l have noticed a great improvement in a number of the girls. 18. In your opinion, is the Home beneficial to the girls?— Yes. 19. You know a girl named D D ?—Yes. 20. It was said yesterday that the Matron boxed that girl's ears. Have you ever seen her do that ?—No, I have not seen that. I took D D—— one day to the Matron because she had been very troublesome, and the Matron smacked her with the palm of her hand between the shoulders. 21. Was there any other occasion but one when that happened?— No. 22. Are you comfortably housed and fed?— Yes. 23. Do you find your hours too long?—No, I do not find the work too hard. 24. On these matters you have no complaint to make?— None whatever. 25. Apart from the question of classification, can you suggest anything which would tend to improve the Home in any way?—l would move some of the girls who give trouble away from the others. 26. The Commissioner.] How many girls of that class are there?— About a dozen. 27. Do you think if they were away there would be an improvement?—l found it so last week when seven or eight were separated from the others. 28. Mr. Salter.] Are you allowed by the Matron to inflict punishment upon the girls?— Yes; I have sent them to bed and given them dry bread. 29. Have you ever deprived them of any part of their meal as a punishment?— Yes; I have taken a piece from them at tea-time. 30. Have you ever sent them away from the table without their meal? —Never. 31. Do you always report to the Matron offences the girls commit?— Yes. 32. But you do not ask for her authority to punish them? —Not always, because sometimes the Matron is not there. 33. Have you ever sent girls into the passage at breakfast-time to learn their lessons whilst the other girls were sitting down to their breakfast? —I cannot remember just now having done so. I may have. 34. Has it been done?— Yes. 35. You cannot remember whether you yourself have done it?— No. 36. Then, after breakfast she is allowed to have hers? —When she has said her lesson. 37. Her breakfast would be cold then?— Not necessarily; it could be kept warm. 38. Is it? —I have often sent meals to be kept warm. 39. Always?— Not always. 40. The Commissioner.] What lessons have they not known?— Catechism and Sunday-school lessons. 41. Mr. Salter.] Do you think it is just to punish girls by keeping them from their meal in order to learn lessons like that?— Yes; they can say them, but it is only out of pure naughtiness they won't. 42. You do not think that by a little coaxing you could get them to learn them?—We tried coaxing at first. We do not send them out until we see they will not learn them. 43. Have you put girls in the cell at all?— Yes. 44. For what offence?—lmpudence and refusing to work. 45. And locked them in? —Yes.

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46. For what length of time?— Different times. I have put a girl in shortly after we have gone outside to work, about 1.15, and left her there until we got back, and then, if she was not better behaved, have left her there until tea-time. 47. When do you get back? —Ten minutes to 5. 48. You would not know whether that girl had been visited during the time you were out at work ?—No; but I would report it to some member of the staff. 49. Always? —I cannot remember not having done so. 50. Do you make any allowance for difference in age when punishing girls? Would you punish a young girl to the same extent as you would an older one ?—lt would all depend upon the offence. 51. Do you remember making a statement to this effect before the whole staff one day : that the only way to manage the girls was to keep your foot on their necks?—l have no recollection of making it. Ido not think I have ever used that term in reference to the girls. 52. If you were told you had made it, you would not deny it? —I have no recollection of having said it. It is not a term I have ever used at any time. 53. When you took D D to the Matron to be punished she slapped her on the back? —Yes. 54. Are you quite sure she did not hit her upon the neck? —I am positive on that point. 55. You say the girls are perfectly satisfied with their surroundings and food, and so on, and never make any complaint. Is that so?—I did not say they never made complaints. 56. What complaints do they make?— Some of them grumble, but only when they are in that mood. 57. Have they ever complained to you about their food? —On one occasion, they did. 58. Only one"?— Yes. 59. Have you heard them talk about the bread and dripping and bread and jam as bread and scrape?— They may have, but I cannot remember it. 60. Is it not a common expression amongst the girls?—l do not think it is. 61. Have you ever heard the Matron, in speaking of some of the girls, call them "beasts " and " great hulking hulls," or anything of that kind?— Never. 62. Is it not the habit of the staff to discuss the girls' faults and speak of their morals at the meal-table?—We have done it, but we do not often do it. 63. You have done so?—lt is the only time we have together to speak about the girls. 64. Why should you wish to speak about the girls?— The only way we can manage them is tc know of their failings, and meal-time is the only time we have to talk these matters over. 65. The faults and immorality of the girls is the general subject of conversation?—l do not think so. We have spoken of it, but it is not the general subject.of conversation. 66. Mr. Russell.] Mr. Salter has spoken as though you people like to inflict punishment. Personally, do you like inflicting punishment?—l never do it unless I have to. 67. You try every other means before resorting to punishment?— Yes. 68. In such a case as sending a girl, away from the table, have you first argued with her and tried to bring moral suasion to bear ?—Yes. 69. I may take it that punishment is only resorted to after every other alternative has been tried? —I have never seen a girl punished unless she deserved it, and after other means have been tried to prevent punishment. Elizabeth Simpson examined on oath. 1. Mr. Russell.] How long have you been an attendant in the Home?— For sixteen months. 2. At present you are in charge of the commissariat, and superintend the cooking and all that? —Yes. 3. What methods are adopted in order to teach these girls cooking? —I have four girls at a time—one in the kitchen, one in the scullery, one for the dining-room, and one for the sitting-room. 4. When are they changed?— Every month. 5. So in time all the girls have a month's training?— Yes. 6. Are you friendly with the rest of the staff?— Yes. 7. There is no trouble between you and the rest of the staff? —None. 8. You personally are interested in.,this question of helping girls?— Very much. 9. You are not here merely for salary?—No; I like the work. 10. Are you satisfied during the time you have been here that you really are doing good work for the girls? Can you see any substantial improvement in the girls?— Yes. 11. Do you notice as time goes on that the girls get less rough in manner?— Yes, they are quieter and brighter, and I think nicer altogether to work with. 12. Are you satisfied that the surroundings of this place and the training here is bound to do these girls a lot of good and make them better women ?—Yes. 13. Generally, so far as you can see, are the girls happy here?— Yes, the majority of them. I think the elder girls are more dissatisfied. 14. Generally, is there an atmosphere of fun and brightness here, or is it all gloom?— Brightness and happiness. 15. The children are laughing and chatting whenever they get a chance?— Yes. 16. So far as you can see, except loss of liberty, is there anything different here from what one would get in an ordinary good home?—No; I think they have everything here they could wish for. It is their own fault if they do not appreciate it. Everything is done for their good and to make them happy. I know the staff lay themselves out to do that. 17. Do you like the Matron's ways of dealing with the children?— Very much.

12— H. 21.

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[E. SIMPSON.

18. Are they fond of her apparently?— Yes, the majority of them are very fond of her. 1 know that from the way they speak to me of her. 19. Generally, could anything more be done by the State than is being done to help these children up in the world? —No. 20. Do they get enough time for play and recreation?— Yes. 21. And they make use of it?— Yes; I think they get more time here for recreation than they would in their own homes. 22. Do you ever punish the girls yourself?—No; I have had no occasion to. Once I sent one girl to the cell. 23. Did you report it to the Matron? —Yes. She was in less than half an hour. Once I made a girl go a piece short at tea-time. 24. You do not like to punish a girl if you can avoid it?— No. 25. Do you know of your own knowledge that every effort is made to obviate punishment? — Yes, so far as I can see. 26. You think the staff treat the children well? —Yes. 27. Do you remember the day when Miss Dean brought D D up to the Matron?— Yes; I was in the office when Miss Dean brought her in. 28. Did the Matron punish her? —She smacked her. 29. Where did she smack her? —She held her by the left arm and smacked her on the shoulder. 30. She did not box her ears? —No. 31. She did not box her first on one side and then on the other? —No. 32. Mr. Salter.] Do you think, if you can manage the girls without punishment, the other attendants could do the same?— That is different. I have only four girls, and if you could not manage four it is rather a poor look-out. Where the staff has sixteen to twenty girls it is very hard work. I really cannot say. 33." What are your hours in the kitchen? —Fiom 7 a.m. until 8 p.m. I have half an hour for meals. 3.4. Only half an hour ?—Yes. 35. I think you prepare the bread and jam and bread and dripping for the table? —Yes. 36. One of the witnesses said yesterday it was scantily spread: is that so?—lt is spread as I was directed to spread it. 37. That is not the point. Was it scantily spread?—l do not think so. That was a fair sample I sent over the other day. 38. Is it a fact that you dilute the golden syrup ?—Yes. 39. With what?— Water. 40. Is that with the object of making it go farther? —Yes. 41. Do you think it is a fair thing to the children to dilute their syrup with water?—l would rather not do it. 42. By whose instructions do you do it? —Matron's. 43. Do you dilute the jam too?— No. 44. Never? —No. 45. Do you know of girls having to go on short allowances as a punishment?—Y T es. 46. Sometimes they lose part of a meal?— Yes. 47. Do they ever lose the whole of it?—No; I do not recollect a case. 48. Do you know whether the girls are unjustly reported to the Matron by the attendants? — I do not know. 49. Do you remember on one occasion saying to Miss Hunt that if she reported a girl of yours she would be reporting her unjustly?— Yes, I remember that. 50. Were you afraid she was going to report her? —I thought she threatened to report her. 51. And you said, " If you report her you will report her unjustly " ?—Yes. 52. Have you heard Miss Mills make any complaint about anything?— No. 53. Did she ever complain to you about Miss Hunt having no morning work? —No. 54. Do you remember that on one occasion the children had some bad fish for dinner ?—Yes. 55. You prepared that for the meal? —Yes. 56. Did you know when you put it on the table it was bad?—l did not know it was as bad as it was. I was rather doubtful about it. 57. You spoke to the Matron ?—Yes. 58. What did she say?— She came and looked at it, and we talked about it a little while. I believe she tasted it, but lam not quite sure. She said she did not think it was bad, and to give it to the girls. Then, after thinking it over, she sent a message not to give it to them, and I did not get that message in time, so the girls got it. 59. You know a girl named J L ?—Yes. 60. Do you remember last November she was in the cell two days in succession?—l do not remember. 61. Do you remember one day when she was in from breakfast-time until tea-time?—l cannot remember any particular day. 62 Do you remember that at tea-time there was a knocking heard, and some one said, " That is J -L "?—No. 63. Have you had any instructions as to the limit your meat bill was to go to?— The Matron orders the amount. I tell her what I want. 64. Have you ever heard of any limit—that the meat bill was to be kept down to £3 per month? —No. I have been told to keep the bills down, but there was no limit. 65. Then, the idea was to limit the expenditure to as small an amount as possible?—l do not know what the idea was.

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66. Do you order gravy beef sometimes? —Yes; E- S is having beef-tea now, and has been ever since she came out of Hospital. If a girl is sick she always has beef-tea. Sometimes the Matron has a little. 67. Have you heard the Matron speaking against Miss Mills or any other member of the staff? —No. 68. She has never discussed with you or other members of the staff some other member who is absent? —No. 69. Do you remember on one occasion when Miss Mills was discussing girls with the Matron the Matron made an unpleasant remark to Miss Mills herself ?—No. 70. This was the remark, " You may have been as bad as the girls when you came here. 1 did not put you on the reception-table. I did not know so much in those days." Do you remember that remark?—l never heard that. 71. Are you quite sure? —Yes. 72. Did you not discuss this very matter with Miss Howden, and say Miss Mills had no spirit? —I never said Miss Mills has no spirit. The first part of that remark I heard, but I have never heard the latter part before. 73. Which part did you hear?—" You may have been as bad as they when you came here." 74. What do you think the Matron meant when she said that?—l do not know. I do not think it is fair to ask me that. 75. The Commissioner.] Who said that?— The Matron. 76. To whom? —Miss Mills. 77. Were they disputing over anything?—l do not know how it came up now, but the Matron only said it in a jovial kind of way. The latter part I never heard before. It was never meant. It was said jokingly. 78. Mr. Salter.] Did you not afterwards express surprise to other members of the staff at the Matron making such a remark? —Miss Howden came to me and said if it had been made to her she would not have liked it, and I said, " Neither would I." 79. Is the Matron in the habit of speaking coarsely about the girls?— Never in my hearing. 80. It is said that the general subject of conversation at the table is about the immorality and bad ways of the girls : is that so ?—No. Sometimes we have to discuss the girls, but we only do so when it is necessary in the interests of the Home. One staff might come in and say she had had trouble with a girl, and it might be talked about; but that is not the general conversation. 81. You do not speak about what has happened to the girls before they come to the Home?-— Not as a rule, or unless it may be helpful to us. It is not the common conversation. 82. You know E- S ?—Yes. 83. When did you see her after she came back from Timaru? —On the following morning. 84. How was she looking?— Very depressed. I went in to her, and said how sorry I was to see her there, and the way she had come back. She began to cry, and said she had been very silly. I told her to take heart, and make up her mind to be good, and that we would all do what we could to help her along. 85. Did she look ill? —She was crying so much I could not see her face. 86. Did she appear to you to be in a bad state of health? —No; I did not think she was ill at all. 87. In discussing the Home and this inquiry, did the Matron ever tell you that Miss Howden was at the bottom of it?— No. She wondered who was. 88. Did she mention Miss Howden at all? —No. 89. Or that she was responsible for the letters appearing in the papers?—l do not recollect. We spoke of it generally. 90. Have you ever seen the Matron boxing other girls' ears?— Never. I have heard the girls say so. 91. The Commissioner.] Have you kept in touch with any of the girls after they have left here finally or during their periods of service? —Yes; several of them have written to me. They write very nice letters, and it seems to me as if they did not appreciate the Home until they are away from it. When they get into situations they are able to see what the Home is. They send nice messages to the Matron and the staff, and say how grateful they are for what has been done to them. But when here their whole idea is to get away. I have always got on well with the girls. 92. Have you formed the opinion, from the way they write to you and keep in touch with you, that they have really benefited, and that there is a genuine desire to be good ?—Yes. 'I know the staff do the very best for the girls, because in the evening sometimes, when we talk about them, one will say, " I wish I could do so-and-so," or " I wish I could do more." We cannot do more, because the little girls and the big girls are together. 93. Have you formed the opinion that if the worst type of .girls was separated from the others it would be better? —Oh, yes. The difference when the girls who were examined first were kept separate was noticeable even to the girls. They remarked to me at different times how nice it was without these other girls. Frederick Richard Inwood examined on oath. 1. Mr. Russell.] You are a minister of the Church of England, located at Burwood?—Yes. 2. How long have you been in close touch with the Home?— Seven or eight years. 3. And you are here pretty often? —Always once a week, and sometimes twice. 4. From your observations, are you able to form any opinion as to the way the Home is administered ?—Yes. 5. You do not go just into a room and then out again?—No; I go right through the whole institution, and see a great deal.

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[f. b. inWgod.

6. In your opinion, are the children here bright and happy, or the reverse?— Most emphatically, happy. 7. Have you seen them at this tree-felling?— Yes. 8. Have they seemed to you to be overworked or crushed with that work? —No, because they take their time over it, and work that would be heavy if one were pressed is nothing if you take it so slowly. 9. Have you been present when the staff and the girls have been together?—l think so. 10. Have you ever heard the staff speaking nastily to the girls? —No. 11. On the other hand, have you heard them speaking courteously and nicely to them?— Always. I have never heard any words spoken that ought not to have been spoken. 12. Do many of the girls go to church? —About twenty-five of the best of them. 13. So all these girls would know you?-—Yes, they know me well. 14. Have they ever complained to you at all here, or said they wanted to speak to you about anything privately?— Not a word. 15. If any girls had wanted to make a complaint, could they have done so?—I have had them in classes where I have been alone with them, and it would have been an easy matter for them to have stated any grievance, but nobody ever has. 16. From your personal observation, are you satisfied this Home is doing good work?—l am most decidedly satisfied. I think Christchurch ought to be very proud of having a Home like this in its midst. 17. Do you see any upward movement in the girls?- —I do see it most decidedly. I see them come in in the rough material, as the Commissioner does, and I think he will agree with me that when they are turned out they are not at all the girls who came in. They are humanised and refined and uplifted in every possible way. 18. Mr. Salter.] You say you think you have been present when the staff have been present with the girls, but you are not quite sure you have ever been near the girls when at their work? — I have been in and out in the workroom and outside. I think I have seen them under all circumstances. 19. How long have you remained with them outside? —I do not remain. I see them passing to and fro. 20. It is hardly likely, even if the girls were dissatisfied with anything that was going on, that they would call out whilst you were passing?— Not whilst I was passing. 21. Have you all the girls in your class, or only a few of the best girls?—l take those who are recommended to me for special instruction. Some of them are the very best, and some are not so good, but I take them in the hope that those who are not so good may be made better by attending my class. 22. Can you say whether the worst girls are ever brought to your class?— Yes, they are. I have them all in time—all except those who do not come under my tuition. 23. What is your idea about strapping these girls?—l have not the objection to corporal punishment that many people have. To my mind, it is more humane than docking food or shutting them up in a cell. It is soon over, and the injury is set square at one sitting, and I really have not any fault to find with it. 24. The Commissioner.] Apart from that, have you formed the opinion that there is anything degrading in a strapping inflicted upon a young woman of twenty? —It is private. 25. Certainly, it is private?—l do not think it is degrading. 26. Not on a young woman of twenty?—l do not think so. 27. What is your opinion in regard to the question of hair-cutting as a form of punishment? —I do not think there is any hardship at all in it. I should not regard the sentiment as worthy of notice, because the hair soon grows again. It is the best deterrent to keep them from absconding. 28. To your mind, it is justifiable?— Yes, and indeed praiseworthy. 29. Do you keep in touch with these girls in after-life?— Yes. 30. And do you find the effects lasting?— Yes. Mary Theresa Inwood examined on oath. 1. Mr. Russell.] You are the wife of the previous witness?— Yes. 2. Do you corroborate all that your husband has said in regard to the treatment of the girls and as *to what has been done at Te Oranga ?—Yes. I**" 1 3. The Commissioner.] Have you come in contact in after-life with any of the girls who have passed through the Home? —No, I have not had the chance. William Henry Syme examined on oath. 1. Mr. Russell.] You are a registered medical practitioner of Christchurch? —Yes. 2. And from the time this Home started until about two years ago I think you were the Medical Officer in Charge? —Yes. 3. Were you at the Home pretty often? —Yes. 4. Did you restrict your visits to once a month? —It depended on circumstances. I came whenever Mrs. Branting suggested. 5. During the time you were here you had an opportunity of seeing for yourself how the place was conducted ?—Yes. Whenever I did come I generally stayed three or four hours. 6. During the years you visited here, were the children happy or unhappy apparently?—l think generally they were very bright and cheerful. 7. And, so far as you could see, you had no reason to think otherwise?— None whatever. 8. Did the Home contain all,the requirements to make the children happy? —To a considerable extent,

W. H. SYME.j

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9. What is your opinion of the Matron and her methods of dealing with the girls? —I think her methods are very good. I think she is a very capable woman. 10. Was she kind to the children? —Yes. 11. And it was your duty to see that the food was up to the regulations?— Yes. 12. I suppose you did what was necessary to carry out your duty in that respect? —Yes; 1 used to consider sometimes that the meat should be rather more restricted than it was. 13. There were obvious reasons for that?—Y'es. 14. During the years you visited here was the food, in your opinion, all that could be expected I —l always had a meal here the same as the children had, and I always found it perfectly wholesome. 15. And perfectly good?— Yes. 16. And the jam of sufficient quantity?— Yes. 17. Generally, was there anything at all that you could suggest was deficient in the management ?—Of course, 1 have one or two suggestions to make. 18. In regard to classification? —Yes; and one or two other matters. 19. So far as you could see, did the staff, including the Matron, do their best to help the girls along ?—Certainly. 20. During the years you visited here, did you notice any substantial improvement, mentally and physically, in the girls after they had been in the Home some year's ?—That is not an easy question to answer. There is a certain class of girl who have a somewhat degenerate nature. 21. But taking the greater number of the girls, and apart altogether from the exceptions, are you of opinion they did improve while here?— Certainly. 22. But in the somewhat degenerate girls there was very little improvement, and never would be? —That is so. 23. Mr, Salter.] It is said that some of the girls come in here suffering from private diseases? —Yes. 24. Is it, in your opinion, a proper thing for the Matron to make the examination necessary in these cases, or should it be left to the Medical Officer ?—I think it should be done by the Medical Officer. 25. Mr. Russell.] You know the Matron is a doctor's widow? —Yes. 26. Would it not be a proper thing for her to make an examination to negative the necessity of bringing the doctor up?—Oh, yes, in many cases. 27. Supposing the examination went no further than just to make sure there was no disease, would you suggest that in every case she should bring the doctor up when she sees at once there is no disease and no necessity for a doctor ?—Not in a general way. 28. The Commissioner.] But, still, you hold it would be preferable that examination should be made by a medical officer?— Yes; I think provision should have been made for more adequate attention to that class of girls. Of course, the payment allotted is such as not to justify a medical officer' in spending a great deal of time here, and I think it would be better if these girls were attended to much more constantly than has been the practice. 29. I would like to hear your suggestions in regard to the improvement of this Home?—l think, with regard to this very difficult question of punishment, that corporal punishment should not be inflicted on girls over eighteen. I think, in the case of the elder girls generally, that labour tasks, such as are in use in female penitentiaries, should be adopted. Ido not think confinement in a cell for day after day or week after week is good for the girls' health, nor do I think it effects the object required. I think it wants more than that. I think some system of labour tasks would meet the difficulty. 30. But if they would not do them?— How do they manage in the penitentiaries at Home? They are made to do it. It is the same as shot drill in the army and navy, for instance. That sort of system is far preferable to continual confinement in a cell. Ido not think confinement in a cell is suitable except for very short periods, and I think bad cases want something far more continuous and effective to influence the person. I, was always impressed myself with the feeling that the girls here to some extent feel themselves to be rather outcasts from society, and while such feeling may be inevitable, I think it is all the more reason why a great deal more should be done than is done by the ladies of Christchurch to show them sympathy. I think that kindly sympathyextended by suitable ladies, under the Matron's direction, would go a long way to uplift the girls, and put them in. touch with the outer world, and give them hope. I think in building up moral influence you want something more than mere discipline, and I think if you can create and foster sympathy between them and other people such as the Lady Visitors it lays the foundation for a great deal of good work. I was instrumental, under the Matron's wishes, in getting Mrs. Kaye and some other ladies to visit here, and I think the work they have done has been very good indeed. 1 think a feeling amongst the girls that they were loved and cared for would effect much more than mere discipline. So long as they have that terrible feeling of being outcasts they will be very careless about making an effort to improve. With regard to the question of tree-felling and such like physical labour, I entirely agree with what Dr. Alice Moorhouse said about it. I think, provided proper supervision is exercised, and they are never allowed to lift any really heavyweights, it will do them nothing but good. Of course, it is all a matter of supervision. I do wish to take this opportunity of expressing an opinion which I have been thinking about for a long time, in connection with Burnham particularly, and that is, that where you have to deal with moral degenerates you must adopt regular physical labour as the basis of treatment. That is the opinion now come to by experts in America and at Home, and I may refer particularly to Dr. Linston's recent book on the "Diseases of Society" as proof of what I say. He shows that where physical labour has been scientifically and judicially employed it has been the means of gradually forming habits of truthfulness and honesty, and when you have the foundation then you can build something on it. The difficulty with many of these degenerates is that there is no

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[W. H. SYME.

foundation to build on —no sense of truth, no sense of obligation. Ido think that the importance of physical labour should be borne in mind. I think that to allow girls simply to be employed at sewing and light work of that description does not answer the difficulty. I think, in the case of those who are distinctly morally degenerate, there should be regulated physical labour. 31. I want your opinion in regard to the question of hair-cutting as a form of punishment, or more probably as a deterrent? —I agree with what Dr. Moorhouse said. It is most harmless, and it is far better for the girl's health than shutting her up in a cell or anything like that. 32. You limit your approval of corporal punishment in the case of girls to eighteen years of age?— About that age. 33. As a matter of fact, you do not believe in corporal punishment much ?—I do not like it, but I consider it is necessary in certain cases. 34. What benefit do you imagine results from the infliction of the strap on the body of a young woman of eighteen ?—I would not do it to a young woman of eighteen. 35. That is what you advocate?—l think up to seventeen there might be certain cases, but they should be, no doubt, exceptional. I think, as you go down in age, your objection diminishes. 36. I suppose you have no doubt whatever as to the benefit that accrues in the majority of cases to the girls who are turned out of Te Oranga?.—Oh, no. 37. You think the treatment tends to make them good women?— Yes. 38. You are able to compare a girl as she goes in with her condition when she comes out?— It think it depends on the age at which they are admitted. I think it is a mistake to admit any girl to Te Oranga over the age of sixteen. I think, bringing the older girls into the place is bad for the younger girls. 39. It is only a question of classification and keeping them apart?—lt is mainly a question of classification. 40. What is your opinion in regard to the discharge from the control of the State of hopeless sexual degenerates at the age of twenty-one?—l have many times expressed the opinion in my reports that such should not be discharged. 41. You think there should be some method of indeterminate dealing with them?— Yes. 42. You have met with girls of that type?— Yes. 43. They simply become dangerous to the community after discharge?— Yes. 44. That is to say, the present system of treating them has failed? —Yes. I think some provision should be made for that class. 45. It is all a question of expense?— Yes. Thursday, 19th March, 1908. George King examined on oath. 1. Mr. Russell.] I think you are at present living in Nelson?— Yes. 2. But for thirty-odd years you were a resident of Christchurch?—Yes. 3. And for many years, and before this Home started, you were living at Horseshoe Lake, and had a large house and grounds there?— Yes. 4. I think you took a considerable interest in this Home after it started?— Yes, but not as much as I should like to have done. 5. And your wife also?— Yes. 6. Were you in the habit of coming to the Home occasionally?— Yes. 7. How many times per year, roughly? —Fairly often. I may say I was up and down past the place twice a day for all the years I was here, and generally I saw the inmates at their work. 8. When you came here, had you an opportunity of looking round and seeing for yourself how things were done here?— Yes. 9. Were you intimately acquainted with Mrs. Branting?—Yes. 10. Might I ask you to state, as far as you can from your visits here, what opinion you formed as to the general care of the children under the Matron? —Without any hesitation, I would say at once 1 thought the Matron managed the Home remarkably well. 11. Did you ever see any physical tasks imposed on the children out of proportion to their strength? —No; I thought they had too easy a time. I thought they would probably be more content had they had more to do. 12. Did you ever see the children in the class-rooms or in the buildings, as well as outside?— Yes. 13 And, generally, was there an air of contentment about the children?— Distinctly so. 14. Did they appear as though they were living under hard conditions here? —No; rather the reverse. They seemed to cling to the Matron as a kind of mother. 15. I think you occasionally had them down at your own place for a day under the Matron and staff? —Yes, and my wife and daughters and myself took part in all the enjoyment going on and in the usual games. 16. At any time did any of the children say anything to you to suggest they were unhappy here? —Quite the reverse. They seemed to vie with one another to get close to the Matron. In fact, I thought they were too familiar, if anything. 17. What inference did you draw from that as to the Matron's personal relations with the children? —I could not take but one view : they were not frightened of her. 18. Did you see anything at all when, visiting here that would enable you to suggest any improvement or alteration in the administration here for the benefit of the children,?—l have suggested to the Matron they should have more extensive grounds, so as to occupy the girls more.

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When they are pretty nearly idle the chances are that mischief is concocted which would not be the case if they were better employed. 19. Did you find the girls, when they were at your place and to a certain extent away from discipline, badly behaved ?—I have not. 20. And you have had the whole school there?— Yes. 21. Mr. Salter.] What opportunities had you of taking notice'of the internal - management here ?—Not so much probably as the female Visitors. 22. But you have expressed your opinion pretty- freely as to the management here by Mrs. Branting. How- do you arrive at it ? —lt is difficult to say. I saw perfect contentment, perfect cleanliness, no apparent harshness, and no oppressive work for'the girls. 23. I suppose, as a matter of fact, your opportunities for investigating the internal management were few ? —As a male Visitor I could not have had more opportunities than I had. 24. You know something about the management of girls, having reared a family : would you suggest that corporal punishment is likely to benefit girls? —I am very proud to say I have reared my family without touching them, but I am willing to admit at once that circumstances mayalter cases. Personally, lam no advocate of corporal punishment. 25. Under what circumstances do you think it is necessary to administer corporal punishment to a girl?—lt is only to adopt the lesser of two evils. For instance, I think hair-cutting, if it is to prevent a girl running away, is the lesser of the two evils. 26. You spoke about the girls having more to do : do you know what their duties are during the day? —Yes, the Matron used to tell me they had certain duties to perform. 27. You know they are at school for two hours in the morning and some for two hours in the afternoon, and do outside work such as tree-felling? —Yes. I suppose the tree-felling is a joke. 28. And they have to dig up the lupins and attend to the garden. What more do you suggest they should do ?—A great deal more. I would probably give them more congenial work. 29. You know they have domestic duties also to perform?—So much the better for them. 30. Would you keep the girls going at work from morning to night?—My opinion of the manual work done in this place by the whole forty or fifty girls is that it would not have occupied an ordinary man about the place. 31. You said without hesitation that the Matron performed her work remarkably well : how did you form that opinion?— From the general surroundings. 32. Do you know anything about the general treatment of the girls?—l do not know the detailed treatment. 33. Then, as a matter of fact, you really do not know very much in detail about the management : you have only formed a general opinion?—l do not know the details of the management. I used to come over here occasionally and play ping-pong of an evening. I noticed that every time the Matron was as anxious as possible that as many of the girls as possible should come in, and the girls were always delighted to come. There were no signs of oppression. I may say that, while I have every respect for the Matron, I would like to say I am not here to speak in the interests of any individual, but in the interests of the Home. Sarah Elizabeth Jackson examined on oath. 1. Mr. Russell.] I think you are Manager of the industrial school at Auckland? —Yes. 2. For how long?—I have completed by twenty-fifth year in that school. 3. How many girls have you? —About 160 on the roll, and an average of thirty in residence. 4. What are the ages of these girls? —The girls belonging to the institution range from nine months old to nearly twenty years. 5. I think some of your girls are sent here?— Yes; when I find them incorrigible they are sent on here. 6. Do you know whether that is the practice at the other industrial schools? —I believe it is the same. 7. So that the class of girls they get in this Home are these incorrigibles?—Yes. 8. Have you been at this Home before? —Yes; I think this is my third visit. 9. Have you afterwards come in touch with any of the girls you have sent here as being incorrigible?— Yes. I remember one particularly, because I met her quite recently. After she had come of age she went back to relatives near Auckland, and she came to see me, and I was very much struck at the change in her. She was "altered in manner. She said she was not at all the girl she had been, and was very thankful she had been taken in hand in time, and that she intended to do what was right, and lead a good life. Since then she has married very well indeed, and is doing well. 10. You are satisfied, from your own knowledge, that that girl received great benefit here? — Very great benefit. I did not think it possible she could reform as she has done. 11. You think her reformation was a real reformation? —There is no doubt about it. 12. Have you seen any other girl you can remember? —There is one girl now in service whom I considered incorrigible. I hear very good accounts of her. There is another girl here, and I am quite surprised to find she has really turned over a new leaf. I never send any girls here unless I consider them incorrigible. 13. Have any of the girls who have been here written to you about the Home?— The girls write to me freely from here, and, judging from the style of their letters, they are not prevented from writing exactly what they like. They also write to me from service. 14. Do they speak generally in good terms of the Matron and the Home?— Very kindly of the Matron. If they had any complaints to make lam sure they would have made them to me. 15. Can you draw any inference from these letters as to their present modes of life—as to whether they have been benefited?—l do not know of any case of any girl I have sent here who has not benefited by the training.

H.—2l.

S. E. JACKSON.

16. I want to ask your opinion as to whether you think it is possible to conduct this institution, or anything like it, without some form of corporal punishment up to a certain age?— There must be corrective discipline, because the girls are ill balanced in mind, and have no self-control and no affections, and the first step towards the reformation of character must be self-control. Corrective discipline is absolutely necessary before they will make any effort. Ihey have not reasoned sufficiently, and their moral sense is lying dormant, and you cannot reach them through the affections. 17. Do you find in your school that it is necessary to administer corporal punishment in some form or another ?—Yes. " Personally, I dislike to administer corporal punishment to the elder girls, but when they are so refractory I send them to Te Oranga. 18 Supposing a girl is persistently impudent before all the others, what do you suggest could be done to that girl, assuming her to be under eighteen years of age?—Of course, it would depend very much upon the character and disposition of the girl; but removing her from the others is the first step. . ~ . . . . ... 19 Then, after you have put her into a classification where the discipline is more rigid, it she still defies' you, and even assaults the attendants, can you suggest any form of punishment to take the place of corporal punishment?—No, I cannot see as a final resort what could be done. I know of nothing else. . ~ 20 In your opinion, would it be a wise thing for the Legislature to give the Stipendiary Magistrate power to order that such a girl should be kept in the Home for an indeterminate period, instead of being discharged at twenty-one, as at present?—l think in some cases, where a girl could be classified as morally insane, that for her own sake and for the sake of the community it would be better to give her an indeterminate sentence. 21. Supposing that the Magistrate was of opinion that a girl when she reached the age of twenty-one would go on the streets and become the lowest form of prostitute, do you think it would be justifiable on the part of the Government to give the Magistrate power to keep that girl under the jurisdiction of the Home for an indeterminate period?— Yes, if all due regard is given to justice so far as the girl is concerned. ...'•» 22. That would be a matter for the Magistrate, on the evidence brought before him t— Yes, assuming that. . . . 23 Do you think such a power in the hands of the Magistrates would strengthen the administration of these Homes very much?— Most decidedly. I can hardly speak from experience as to that because my girls, if they are incorrigible, always leave me about sixteen or seventeen. ' '24 But you think it would strengthen the hands of the administration if a girl knew she might be so kept?—l think very possibly it would in the case of a girl coming into the Matron's hands about eighteen years of age. 25 With regard to girls who abscond themselves and try to take others with them, and make an appointment to go straight to a house of ill-fame, do you think such girls should or should not receive corporal punishment on their return not merely as a punishment, but to deter others from doing the same thing?—lf every other punishment has failed, rather than let a girl go to destruction like that I would advise it. It is most certainly the lesser of two evils. 26 Have you been through the Home since your visit? —Yes. 27 Have you seen the inmates?— Yes. I talked to two of the girls freely. They had not been behaving very well, and I asked Mrs. Branting if she would allow me to talk with them. Of course, this inquiry has had a very bad influence on the inmates. I have felt it in Auckland, and it is very detrimental to their best interests. _.._'• ~ • 28. You have even found that influence reach as far as Auckland? —Yes; and it brings their weaknesses, and so on, before the notice of the public. 29 And from what you can see, have the girls here any legitimate cause for complaint, except that they are not allowed "to leave?—l do not think they have at all. I rather agree with Mr. King, that if Mrs. Branting errs at all it is on the side of leniency. 30. Mr. Salter.] In regard to corporal punishment, you are aware that there is a maximum fixed under the regulations? —Yes. _ ...... ~ 31 Would you consider that the Matron would be justified m any case m administering the maximum number of strokes?—l have to do with much younger children, and naturally I do-not give the maximum number; but I haye to give fairly severe punishments. 32. Then, except in a very bad case, you would feel the maximum number should not be given? —In* such a bad case as that I should probably send them to Te Oranga. These extreme cases do not come under mv notice. , 33. Would you be in favour of attendants administering punishment?—l prefer to do d myself. . .... .. , , ~ 34. And in any case an attendant who punishes an inmate should immediately report the matter to the Matron?— That does not arise in Auckland. I have had no experience of it. 35. The Commissioner.] You do not allow any punishment by any person other than your--36. Mr. Salter.] Do you approve of hair-cutting? —I do not see anything in that you could disapprove of exactly. It is to prevent a girl going away, and to make it easier for the police to trace her if she gets away, and would any one say these girls ought not to be traced as quickly as possible, and anything that tends to that'end will surely not be disapproved of. 37. But it is practically a mutilation? —Oh, dear me, no. That is not how a girl would look at it. Of course, they do not like it being done, but we have to consider what it is done for. 38. With regard to economy in the management of an institution like this, what do you think of diluting the golden syrup ? Mr. Russell: It will save time if I say we do not justify it. It was an oversight,

S. E. JACKSON.

H.- 21

_ 39. Mr. Salter.] You say, if the Matron errs she errs on the side of leniency : what opportunities have you had for judging that?— This is my third visit. 1 have stayed in the house, and that is the only way in which you can really judge the work of the institution. 40. You say an inquiry such as this is detrimental to the best interests of the institution? —Yes. 41. Inquiries such as this are necessary occasionally: how are they- detrimental?—l was not speaking as to the necessity for it at all, but as to the influence it has on the inmates. 42. The Commissioner.] I may take it you have not had any close experience of reformatories pure and simple?— No. 43. And you will admit there is no very strict analogy between your girls, generally speaking, and the inmates of an institution of this sort?— Very little. 44. I take it when you use the term " incorrigible " you mean girls to whom your methods are not so applicable as to others?—lt is not strictly applicable. I meant to say " appear to be incorrigible." 45. What percentage do you suppose you send here?—l think I have sent about ten or twelve altogether. 46. With regard to classification, of course you will admit that the success of the working of an institution, either here or anywhere else, depends very largely on the facilities for classification. How do you classify your inmates?—l do not classify mine. The better children are boarded out, and the children who are not amenable to the discipline of a foster-home reside in the institution, and then when they appear to be incorrigible I transfer them to Te Oranga. That is the classification I have. 47. Your inmates, generally speaking, are of the better class, to whom you are really fostermother ?—Yes. 48. At what ages generally are they committed to you? —All ages. I have had them as young as five days. 49. Then you are really a receiving home?— Yes; but, still, I have resident inmates. I have, them committed to me as old as fifteen. The police very often consult me about cases, and I say whether it is advisable to send them to me or to Mrs. Branting. If a girl has been associating and living with women of really bad character I do not have them at all, for the sake of the .younger children 50. Then you try as far as possible only to have untainted girls?— Yes. 51. Hav.s you ever given any thought to the question of classification here?—l thought the idea of having a third class an excellent one. I thought it was to be carried out in the first instance 52. Do you not recognise the fact that classification, if properly carried out, might very well do away with the necessity for some of the existing punishments?—lt might to a certain extent. I quite agree with you it would be a good thing to try it. 53. It is your duty to exhaust all possible means of dealing, with these girls before resorting to corporal punishment?— Yes; but if it came to a final issue between that and these girls, even of twenty, going into the streets and leading a bad life, I would even do that. 54. Ido not quite follow your mind in regard to the effect of corporal punishment. I should like you to point out to me in what way you think any possible benefit could result from the infliction of corporal punishment on a young woman of twenty?—No benefit, but it might prevent her fiom trying to get away. 55. But it will only be a very short time before she is an absolutely free agent?—l say I have had no practical experience of that. 56. Personally, you rather object to corporal punishment?—l do. 57. I suppose you keep in touch a good deal with your girls after they leave you?— Yes. 58. Do you find that the girls who voluntarily write, either to the Matron or to members of the staff, after they have been discharged or whilst they are in service, by so doing show their desire to keep in touch with a better life?—l have lost sight of very few of my girls altogether. 1 generally know whether their letters are true to fact or not, and the girls generally know me pretty well. The/ generally speak the truth to me. 59. I have had an opportunity of perusing sixty or seventy letters'written by ex-inmates of the school to ths Matron, and many of these letters are of a very pleasant nature indeed, and evidence a great regard for the school aiid for school life, and express the writers' gratitude for the training they have received here. I want to know whether you, as an experienced Matron, would say these are a fair index of the desire of the girls to lead a better life? —I certainly should. ' 60. You mean they are not just written for a purpose?—l do-not think so to Mrs. Branting, and I am sure not to me. 61. And you have no doubt as to the general results of the industrial-school system as at present carried out by the Education Department?— No. I think the results speak very well. I know cases of girls who have married and who are bringing up children of their own. They are bringing them up much better than the children of the class they belonged to, and very much better than they could have been brought up themselves but for these Homes. I can see the result of their training in the training of their own children. I have seen a good many of what I can call my official grandchildren. Frederick Philip Fendall examined on oath. 1. Mr. Russell.] You are a clergyman of the Church of England, living at Rangiora? Yes. 2. You wrote the letter appearing in the Lyttelton Times which started this agitation? Yes. 3. Before you wrote that_ letter, which on the face of it makes a most serious charge against the Department, what precautions did you take to verify your information ?—I had no opportunity to verify it except by my informant.

' 13— H. 21.

H.—2l.

[f. p. fendall.

4. Was that the girl A G ?—Yes. 5. Did you know anything about her character or record at the time when you accepted her as an authority?—l knew she had been, in the Samaritan Home. 6. Did you know she had been committed to this Home by Mr. Bishop?—l understood that, 7. Did you find out what sort of a character she was? —I understood she had been troublesome, but 1 did not know what she had been before. 8. Where did you see the girl?—At the Addington Vicarage. 9. Did you go to see her for that purpose?— No. I was visiting in the ordinary way. 10. Was your letter written at the vicarage? —No. 11. Did you show it to Mrs. Bean?—l showed it to no one but the editor. 12. You know that the punishments administered here are prescribed by regulations?— J knew it is the custom of the Department for all punishments to be registered and reported to the Department. 13. Did you know they could not be given at all except by virtue of the regulations?— That is what I understood to be the case. 14. So they were regulations, of course, which were framed by the Government of which Mr. Seddon was the head? —Yes. 15. Now, the punishment prescribed for serious offences is twelve strokes with the strap, which is very much the same as the punishment given in the primary schools? —I do not know anything about fhe limit. 16. If I am right in my reading that the savagery of the slave-owners of America in their treatment of their black men was something inhuman, do you suggest that the punishment inflicted here under the regulations, drawn up by the Government of which Mr. Seddon was the head, has any analogy whatever with the treatment meted out by the slave-owners of America to their slaves? —1 certainly cannot see that anything is going to result from it of benefit to the individual. 1 cannot see but that it savours of savagery. It is a savage way of dealing with the individual. 17. Do you say that twelve strokes with a strap suggest anything like the barbarous cruelties inflicted in the dark ages? Did you not go rather further than you intended? —I do not say the same. . It is not of the same severity, and may not have the same detrimental effect upon the individual, but it may be the same in kind. 18. Would that not apply to every bit of punishment prescribed for the primary schools?— I think a good deal depends on the age of the individuals. 19. You say that the methods savour of the savagery of some of the slave-owners of American notoriety. That is to say, you place Mrs. Branting and the people who have to administer these regulations on the same footing as the slave-owners of America?—No; I have nothing to do with Mrs. Branting. It was not in my mind to make any reflection on Mrs. Branting. It was the Department I held responsible for the punishment. 20. Do you suggest no punishment at all should be inflicted on sixty bad girls?—lt is the particular kind of punishment. I had in my mind the thought that the cutting-off of a girl's hair is a species of mutilation. We have a right to our own bodily natures, and no one has a right to deprive us of them. 21. You spoke here of two girls hiding in a loft. Were you aware that these girls had seduced four or five other girls to go with them that night?—l understood several contemplated escaping. 22. Did you know these girls had arranged to go to a bad house?— No. 23. Would it have made any difference in your opinion had you known these facts? —Not as to the administration of that punishment. 24. How would you suggest they should be punished ?—I think there are other ways —the deprivation of pleasures. 25. What pleasures?—J imagine from what I have heard to-day that very considerable pleasures are extended to the children, and to be deprived of these would bo a very real punishment. 26. Now, we had letters put. in from one girl particularly who said that it was the punishment of the strap that deterred her from running away?— You may deter a girl and you m a y cow her, but my letter says that the end before us is to improve her character. While you may cow her for a time you do not improve her character permanently. 27. I think once before you very properly took up some case of a boy at Burnham, and wrote to the Department about it, and Mr. Pope saw- you on the subject and satisfied you. Do you remember that ?—Yes. 28. Why did you not adopt the same course in this case?—ln this case, if the Department had sanctioned t]iis punishment, as I had every right to suppose they had, the only way I could conceive of bringing pressure to bear upon them was through public opinion. 29. Why did you not ask the Department if this was true, or go to the Matron and ascertain what these girls, had done, and then consider whether the punishment was too seyere or not? —I do not admit that punishment should be given for that offence. 30. Do you know from general results that the training here makes an immense improvement in the worst girls?—l have had no opportunity of judging. I know a brother-clergyman had one of the girls, apd he said she was absolutely impervious to kindness. That is the closest contact 1 have had with them. 31. Have you any further information that will help the Commission in any way? —Absolutely none. 32. Mr. Salter.] A G told us that the information she gave to you was volunteered by her to you in Mr. Bean's dining-room. That is correct?— Yes. 33. Do you know Miss Howden?—No. 34. Then, she has never given you any information '/-—-None whatever. 35. T may say that the information which A—i — G gave to you was perfectly correct; — that this girl did receive twelve strokes, and knowing the way in which this punishment is inflicted you say, in yoilf opinion, it was barbarous?—l do.

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Harriet Belle Petremont examined on oath. 1. Mr. Russell.] You are Matron of the Caversham Industrial School?— Yes. 2. How long have you been there? —A year and nine months. 3. How many children are Under your* charge?— There are about three hundred in the industrial school and thirty-two in residence. 4. I suppose the children you have are of the same class as those mentioned by Miss Jackson? —Yes. 5. What do you do with the children who appear to be incorrigible?— They are generally sent to Mrs. Branting. I have sent three. 6. Prior to your appointment as Matron at Caversham, had you any experience on similar lines?—l had been in children's wards at Home, and had been a nurse about eighteen years. I have done district work in England, and was a jubilee nurse in the slums of Manchester for a long time. 7. Can you give the Commission any information in regard to the question of punishment, corporal or otherwise, in regard to girls ? —I agree with all Miss Jackson has said about that. I cannot say any more. 8. You think some form of punishment is necessary, but only to be used as a last resort?— That is all. 9. What do you do with the elder girls of nineteen or twenty?—l have had to strap one not quite eighteen, and I think it did her good. She is now in the school. 10: Whitt Was she punished for?— Lying and encouraging men of low character when Out at service. 11. How many strokes of the strap did she receive?— Four. That was about nine months ago. 12. Has there been any improvement in her since? —Y x os, considerable. I do not let her go out. I know- that moral weakness is there still. She is better in other respects, and more truthful than she was. I asked her about three weeks ago whether she thought the punishment I gave her had done her good, and she said " Yes." 13. She did not want any more? —No. 14; Mr. Salter.] You knew you had the right to administer twelve strokes?— Yes. 15. Why did you not administer twelve? —I tried four to start with. 16. Then, as a deterrent, you think four equally as good as twelve? —It was in this instance. It just depends. This girl is not as bad as these Mrs. Branting has by any means. If she was she would be with them. 17. Would you consider absconding any worse than offences like lying and encouraging bad characters when out at service? —Yes, I should. Eliza Bannerman Kaye examined on oath. 1. Mr. Russell.] You are the wife of Albert Kaye, merchant, Christchurch? —Yes. 2. And you are an Official Visitor to this Home? —Yes. 3. I think that prior to your official appointment you took a great deal of interest in the Home as a private lady?— Yes, a great deal. 4. And you have been visiting it regularly since when?— July, 1903. 5. Since then I think, you have made it part of your duty to come here ohe day in every we ek?—More often two days, and always, except when I have been away from home on holiday, one day a week. 6. I think you have taken this up as part of your regular duty ih helping the girls?— Yes. 7. You get no pay of any kind? —None whatever. 8. You are doing it simply for love of the work?—Y"es. 9. Tell us what you do when you come? —When I first came my desire tvas to have a Bibleclass, but Mrs. Branting told me that that work was already undertaken by Mr. Smail and Mr. Inwood, and she was a little afraid the girls might think they wore getting too mubh on the religious side if there were three Bible-classes. So I just came down with a young friend, and gave them a little music, and generally got up a lecturette to amuse them and give them a subject for conversation. Recently I have been holding a Bible-class one week and a music-lessOn the next week. 10. Have you found the girls pay very great attention and take a great interest in your subjects? —Yes; they always greet me warmly when I come. 11. Do you make "any distinction between the Roman Catholic and Protestant girls? —I do not take the former at my Bible-class, but on singing nights I make no distinction whatever. 12. Do you find they like the singing-lessons and join in?— There is no doubt about it, 13. Have these girls, if they choose, an opportunity of conversing with you quietly and privately on any matter? —They have had a great many opportunities. For instance, they have had opportunities on play nights, when we have been playing guessing games and several of us have gone out of the room. I have stood in the dark passage with the children holding my hand and whispering and talking to me. One told me quite a long story as to how she had seen me before. On the same play nights I have taken charge of the service girls who were returning home and have waited with them in the Square to see them into their different trams. On these occasions they have talked freely to me about the Home, and in every case I have heard the warmest expressions about the Home. 14 Then the suggestions that the girls either have had no opportunity or have been frightened to speak to the Lady Visitors rest upon no foundation of fact?—l should think it ridiculous. 15. You are satisfied that if the girls had any complaints they had plenty of opportunities to speak'to you? lam perfectly satisfied, and lam perfectly certain that they are so far friendly with me that they would tell me if anything was wrong.

H.—2l.

100

[c. b. kaye.

16. What are you getting up in the school at the present time?—A little cantata. It is rather a childish thing, but Mrs. Branting, who was anxious for their enjoyment, asked me to give them something which they could act, so that those with not much musical ability could have a little chance to show off. I can assure you I find lam riever allowed to omit a bit of the singing exercises. 17. I think at the present time you are going through the Epistles at Mrs. Branting's request? —Yes. She particularly asked me to do so, because of the strong moral teaching in the Epistles. 18. Do you find the girls' answers reflect in any way an intelligent interest in the teaching you are giving?—l find their answers remarkable, and better than in any of the classes I have had outside. 19. I believe.also that, as well as catering for their mental welfare, you give them cake and fruit by way'of prizes? —Not by way of prizes. Now and again I like to give them a little pleasant evening. My friend and I have brought cakes and fruit, and asked the Matron to allow us to have an evening of games and fun. 20. I suppose the children enjoy that? —Yes, and Mrs. Branting too. 21. Is there anything to suggest that the children are in a reformatory on these nights?— Nothing whatever. 22. You have some birthday parties a year? —Yes, two. 23. Are you present at these generally?— Yes, I have been invited to every one. 24. I think a few people who are interested in the Home also come?— Yes. The children generally go and dress up and enjoy themselves. Miss Mills is a great sharer in that part of the work. Miss Mills sometimes spends money out of her own pocket to help the children dress up. 25. And Mr. Smail sometimes gets them tickets?— Yes, for entertainments in town. 26. The Matron allows them to go?— Yes, under the supervision of the staff. 27. Are the children allowed to go down to the seaside I~k- Yes, they go down sometimes for a picnic—a dozen or twenty, according to their behaviour. 28. When the Exhibition was running, were the girls allowed to see that at all?— Yes; I have met them in the Exhibition with the staff. 29. Are the children generally happy and contented here so far as you can see? —I should think so. I have never seen one sign to suggest that they think themselves outcasts, as one gentleman said. On the contrary, they think themselves quite as good as most of us. 30. Guests of the State?—Y*es. 31. Have you ever chatted with the Matron in regard to the question of punishment?— Yes, to try and think out the best way. She has felt sometimes it might help to clear her own mind if she talked the matter over quietly. 32. The Matron does not like punishing the girls?—l know she does not. 33. How do you think they ought to be punished when they commit bad offences? —For such offences as girls absconding and knowing where they intended to go I cannot think of any other punishment but what they got. The sin was so frightful; they must be shown the State thinks it frightful. 34. Do you consider the punishment is not merely to hurt them, but to deter others from doing the same thing? —Most decidedly. 35. Do you consider, from what you have seen here, that the punishment was very severe after the strapping?—No; I have seen a girl not. at all distressed after the strapping. I have never seen any indication of any physical effects. 36. Have you ever been asked by the Matron to go and have a chat with the girls privately? —Yes. 37. No attempt has ever been made to put obstacles in the way of the girls seeing you privately?— None whatever. 38. May I say she has rather encouraged it?— Yes; very much. Sometimes I have been a little unwilling myself, because perhaps of physical tiredness, to do what (he Matron wished. 39. Can you tell me upon what terms the staff and the management are?— Very friendly. 40. Are the staff competent and capable persons?—So far as I am able to judge, I think so. I hear a good, deal of the internal working of the Home. 41. With regard to Miss Howden, I think you were present when these girls signed that evidence that was put into the Commission? —Yes. 42. What opinion did you the matter?—l thought it was much more serious than 1 was inclined to think at first, 43. W T as anything done to put pressure on the girls or to suggest questions to them, or were they voluntary statements? —I considered I was acting in my official position, and I warned the girls' very strongly as to the seriousness of saying such things, and I told them their statements would be shown to Miss Howden, and also that probably they would be shown to Mr. Pope. 44. Were the girls all in the room at one time? —No; each one was examined without the others knowing what she had to say. 45. All measures were taken, so far as you could see, to prevent collusion between the girls? —Y r es. 46. Did you discuss with Mrs. Branting the advisability of A G going to service? —Yes. 47. Was it your opinion, as well as Mrs. Branting's, that a further course of treatment in the Home was necessary ?—I thought she was not quite in a fit state to go to service. 48. In coming to that conclusion, both you and the Matron considered the matter from a broad point of view? —Yes. 49. There was no question of this Home against the Samaritan Home, or against Mrs. Bean? —No.

E. B KAYE.j

H.—2l.

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50. Do you consider such tasks as tree-felling and gardening are beyond the strength of the girls, from what you have seen?—l have not seen anything that could be considered to be beyond their strength. 51. Have the girls ever complained to you that the work is beyond them?— No. They took great pride in one special tree they declared they had felled. 52. From what you have seen of the girls on returning from these tasks, have they shown signs of physical weakness from overwork? —When they are able to sing at the top of their voices for more than an hour I do not think they can be said to show signs of physical tiredness. 53. Does it come within your official capacity to look after the food?— Two or three times I have looked after it, but as Mrs. Branting has her official diet list I do not consider she can go far wrong. 54. Do you consider that she carries out the dietary scale?—So far as I know- she does. 55. Have the girls ever complained to you about the food or about want of bed-clothing?— No. 56. Or about having been put in a cell and forgotten for the day?—l have never heard of such a thing. 57. You think the girls get enough time for play and recreation?—l think they get a great deal. 58. In your opinion, is this place a home?— Most decidedly. 59. Have you had any communication with the girls after they have left here?— Yes, I have spoken to the service girls frequently. 60. In what way do they refer to the Home? —They generally send messages of love and remembrance to the Matron. 61. There has been nothing to suggest they have bad feelings against the Matron?— Not the slightest. 62. Mr. Salter.] You say the girl A G required a further course before going to service. Were you aware she had been in the Samaritan Home for twelve months, and had given perfect satisfaction to the Matron there?— Yes. 63. Why did you consider it necessary to have her back here at all after she had given satisfaction there?—l considered, for one thing, that Mrs. Branting stood in the place of parent to the girl, and that she ought to have her here to see her mental condition. Another thing, I did not consider the situation quite suitable, for the special reason that we understood the lady who asked to have her would probably be away from home a good deal, and considering the girl's mental state I thought it very unwise she should go to a home where she might be left responsible. 64. Did you not think you were standing in the girl's way in preventing her going to a respectable place like Mrs. Bean's?—l know Mrs. Branting would not arrange for her to go to any but a respectable place. If I had been satisfied by a fortnight's residence in the Home that the girl was quite capable of being in a situation I would have made no objection. 65. What did you know about the girl except what Mrs. Branting herself told you?—l had some private conversations with the girl after she came back. I knew the girl's record too. 66. But you knew she had done splendidly at the Samaritan Home for quite twelve months? —I was quite aware of that. 67. You did not consider that a sufficient test?—l thought Mrs. Branting should have an opportunity of seeing her. 68. You were practically standing up for Mrs. Branting more than interesting yourself in the girl?—l was interesting myself in the girl, but the question was whether she was fit to go out. 69. With regard to the girls who gave evidence against Miss Howden, 1 suppose you know the reputation of the girls is that they do not speak the truth?—l am perfectly aware of it, and I know some of them say they do not. 70. Y T et, knowing that, do you not think it rather remarkable to accept the evidence of these girls, and condemn Miss Howden upon it, before giving Miss Howden an opportunity to make an explanation ?—I made no statement against Miss Howden whatever. For some time before this the Matron had told me there was a great deal of unrest in the Home for which she could not account, and she was very worried about it. About this time things came to a climax, and the girls told one of the staff that Miss Howden was practically inciting them to rebellion. I thought if they put the statements down in black and white Miss Howden would have an opportunity cf putting the matter right, 71. Are you aware Miss Howdeivnever had that opportunity?—l am aware Mrs. Branting gave Miss Howden the papers to read, and that she absolutely denied the statements. 72. The fact remains that the word of these girls, who have the reputation of being liars, was accepted as against Miss Howden? —Personally, I had nothing whatever to do with that. 73. Do you know Miss Mills had these girls with her in her own room for three hours before they made tliese statements at all?—I do not know anything about that. 74. With regard to the food, have you seen the bread and dripping and bread and jam spread for the girls?—l cannot say I have, but considering their physical condition and plumpness, and strength and health, it is absurd to suggest they do not get enough food. 75. The Commissioner .] Y 7 ou think, generally speaking, they have no cause for complaint in regard to their food? —No. 76. Have you given any thought to the question of improved classification?— Yes, I have thought a lot about it, and I have tried to urge on the Department the absolute necessity for a third class. 77. That would very materially strengthen the hands of the Matron?— Undoubtedly. 78. And possibly do away with the necessity for the corporal punishment now inflicted? —Yes. 79. And there would be the further incentive to the girls to get from class to class, and so help them to keep straight?— Yes.

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80. Is there anything you wish to add generally?—l just wish to testify as to the respect 1 feel for Mrs. Branting. It has been growing every day since I came here. 81. Are you the sole Official Visitor? —No; there are three. 82. Y T ou are probably here more than any one else? —Yes. 83. Is that on account of the extra interest you take in the institution?— Yes. I took a great interest in the girls from the first. 84. Were your duties ever defined? —No. 85. What is implied by the term " Official Visitor "? —I take it we are supposed to make a surprise visit two or three times a year, and go through the Home inside and outside—a sort of general inspection. Mary Smith examined on oath. 1. Mr. Russell.] l T ou are wife of Mr. Smith, Town Clerk, Christchurch? —Y r es. 2. You are an Official Visitor to this Home?—Y'es, since 1902. I was one of the first three Official Visitors appointed. 3. How often have you been here each year?— When I took up the position I understood it was necessary to make an official visit three or four times a year, but that if there was occasion to go down oftener I was perfectly willing to do so. 4. As a matter of fact, how often have you been here?— Very seldom less than three times a year officially, and I have often been here unofficially. 5. Have you mixed much with the girls?— Yes, both during their work and play. 6. Had they opportunities to make complaints to you if they wanted to do so?—Y T es; in fact, on one occasion one or two had been rather troublesome, and had been complaining, and I went into the room and asked them what they had to complain about. I asked them to tell me what the trouble was, but they simply laughed. There were about a dozen present, and they said it was all nonsense. 7. Have they ever complained to you? —Never. 8. Generally, do you find the girls apparently happy?— Yes, decidedly so. I have never seen them depressed. 9. The whole demeanour of the girls has been consistent with happiness? —I should say so. 10. Do you think there is any legitimate cause for complaint so far as the work, food, and general treatment of the girls are concerned?—So far as I can judge, certainly not. IL Do you think they are overworked? —Certainly not. 12. And they keep in good condition, as though they had food enough?— Most decidedly. 13. Do you think they get time enough for play and recreation ?— Yes, and more than they would got if out at service. 14. Putting aside the question of punishment, have you any suggestion to make for the improvement of the Home or the betterment of the children?— Not under existing circumstances, but I may say that as Official Visitor I have urged on the Department the need for better classification. 15. Do you consider from your visits here that there is an upward movement amongst the girls?— Yes, I do. 16. Do you keep in touch with any of the girls after they go out from the Home?—l have with one or two. On one occasion there was a girl in the punishment cell, and I remained behind and had a talk with her. I think I influenced her a little. I asked her if she considered her punishment was deserved, and she said, "Yes, she did." That girl went to service afterwards, and has given very good results. She has greatly improved, and has given every satisfaction as a servant. I would like to say, further, that when the letters appeared in the newspapers the Official Visitors wrote to the Department urging that an inquiry should be held; as we considered it was only fair both to the staff and the children, and to satisfy the public, that the complaints should be seen into. We considered there was nothing whatever to hide. Sarah Jane McKee examined on oath. 1. Mr. Russell.] You are a widow, living in Christchurch, and I think you employ the girl Z MeG , who lived here? —Yes. 2. When she first came to you, did she speak well or ill of the Matron and the Home?— Very well indeed. 3. And, lately, has any change come over her?— Yes, a very great change lately. 4. In what way?— Before this inquiry began she told me the Matron was very kind to thenij and tucked them in bed at night. We had some honey one day, and she said, "Oh; we have plenty of honey at the Home." Another day she said on the subject of fruit, " Oh; we have lots of fruit at the Home." On another day, when tennis and croquet were being played at my place, she said, "We have croquet and tennis at the Home too." I asked her if she played, and she said, " Oh, yes." I asked her if Mrs. Branting would sell fowls, and she said they were all wanted at the Home, and added, "We often get fowls and ducks." She always came to the Home on the Thursdays, and after one visit she told me she had given evidence, and then I understood from the papers she had given her evidence not in the way I expected. I said, "Z , you told me Mrs. Branting was very good to you," and she replied, " But she never liked me." I asked her how Mrs. Branting showed her she did not like her, but she did not answer me. As to the girl's training, personally she is very clean and Very obliging, and does any work she is asked to do; indeed, one day when I saw her going with an axe to chop some wood, I told her not to do it as she might injure herself, but she said she like doing it. 5. You know of no reason why she should suddenly have changed and given the evidence she did?—No; 1 did not know whether she was insincere to begin with or had changed her mind later on. 6. You were very much surprised when the girl gave evidence contrary to what you expected? ■—-We were all very surprised.

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Samuel Fluellyn examined on oath. 1. Mr. Russell.] Ypu are police officer, stationed at Richmond? —Yes. I have been there thirteen years, and in performance of my duties 1 have very often to come here at all hours of the day and at night too. 2. I suppose your visits are mostly surprise ones?— Often. Sometimes I tell the Matron lam coming. 3. Have you had any opportunities to speak to the girls at any time? —Not unless to absconders. 1 have several times brought absconders home. 4. Generally, did these girls seem glad to get back or sorry ?—Sorry. They did not want to come back, and sometimes I had difficulty in getting them here. 5. When you have been here, have you had any opportunity of seeing the girls at work or play?— Several times. 6. And generally, from what you saw, would you judge them to be happy or unhappy? —I consider they were happy. 7. Did it strike you the work they did outside was too heavy for them?—l consider it a sort pf pastime for them, and I think they regard it the same way. They were usually laughing and joking over it. 8. Mr. Salter.] Did these absconders over give you any reason for being sorry to come back? —I cannot remember if they did. 9. The Commissioner.] Did they ever make any complaints about the Home? —No. 10. From your long experience in the district, and your knowledge of the girls generally, and your possible contact with some of them in after life, do you consider this institution is carrying opt its reformatory work in a satisfactory way? —I think the effect of it is good. The girls are improving. 11. You know some of the girls who come here are very hard cases? —Yes. 12. Do you see a difference afterwards in them? —I do so. 13. You think the Home has a refining tendency to a certain extent? —Yes. 14. You know- some of the girls never will reform?— That is so. In my opinion, punishment is absolutely necessary in some cases, although I do not approve of the strap myself. Friday, 20th March, 1908. Charles Chaplin examined on oath. 1. Mr. Russell.] What is your occupation?—l am a bee expert, so far as this institution is concerned. 2. Are you here very often in connection with the hives?—l have been occasionally visiting here for some years, through being asked to assist with the bees and give the girls some instructions, as the Matron was anxious they should get some honey for the institution. I may say that at first I had a prejudice against the institution, in consequence of a paper read by two ladies, and I was inquisitive enough to wish to see the institution, and after 1 did so I quite changed my views. 3. You did not come so much to look after the bees as to look into the institution?—Oh, yes; but since I have come in perhaps once a year because I was inquisitive in regard to the institution, and my excuse was that I wished to see the bees. Everything I have seen here has caused me to think very highly of the institution. 4. What opinions did you form from these papers ?—lt was a paper read in the early days, very strongly criticizing the institution. 5. From what you have seen, do you think the children are well looked after?— Yes. Indeed, I believe it is beyond what ninety out of every hundred people outside the institution, could provide for their own. 6. The children appeared to be happy? —Without a doubt. I have worked with them, and the Matron or attendant would be watching them from the path, so the girls could have said anything they liked to me for several days. 7. Did they complain to you about anything?— No. They were rollicking and jolly. 8. Did they appear healthy? —Some of them, I think, were stronger than me. 9. Did you see them chopping wood at any time? —Yes. 10. Was there any hard work about that as they did it? —Only fine exercise. 11. Do you think there is any ground for any one to say this Home is not well conducted?— There was nothing I could see, and I came here critically, and I think Mr. Salter knows me enough to know I am a bit of a critic. 12. So far as you could see, the children had no complaint to make at all? —Not in the least. Two cases come to my memory. When I came here one of the girls was dressed in a bi-coloured garment, and I was told it was because she had run away. This was one of the girls who was assisting me, and she had no enmity towards the Matron for this. We were working about the hives, and the Matron had gone to the telephone, I think, when this girl's apron-string broke, and she ran into the house to get something with which to repair it. At that moment the Matron returned, and, seeing the apron lying on the bank, ran away into the paddock shouting for the o-irl. The other girls said the Matron thought she had run away. When the girl returned and learnt this she ran after the Matron into the lupins, and seemed to be in as great a state of consternation about the Matron as the Matron was about her. The two came back together laughing, and treating the thing as a joke. I have always found Mrs. Branting quite as willing to show

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me round the place as she would the Commissioner. In the same way, in all her dealings with the girls she scorned to me to come down to their level, and to treat them in the most humane and kindly way Therefore, 1 have always looked upon Mrs. Branting as a most valuable public servant. Mrs. Branting, m all her dealings with the girls so far as 1 have seen, has treated them in the most kind and motherly manner. Ido not know any of the girls' names but one The Matron never exposed the girls to me in any way. 13. Have you noticed that the girls get more refined and decent as time goes on?— Speaking of the girls as 1 remember them, they certainly have improved. , Mary Leslie examined on oath. 1. Mr. Russell.] I believe you are the wife of David Leslie, and live near here?— Yes. 2. I think you want to give some evidence as to what you know of this place? Yes.' « 3 ;> Will y ° U State t0 the Commission ei- what you know?—l know a good deal about the Home Mrs. Branting showed me over the place two years ago and all the girls' belongings, and I thought it was a great credit to the Home and to Mrs. Branting to see everything in such beautiful order It surprised me to know how she could manage it. When I had fruit in the season I asked the Matron if she would allow the girls to come over and pick it for themselves. Miss Hunt brought some ten or thirteen over, and I was surprised to see the turn-out. They looked so nice and clean and all appeared so happy. They picked all the pears they could reach, and then they cut down the tree for me as I did not want it any longer and got the rest of the pears. 4. Did they make a good job of it?— They did it as nicely as a man could, and they were not very long m doing it. They were all so happy, and I never heard Miss Hunt say an angry word to tfiem. I thought it so nice to see her controlling all these girls without an angry word. 5. Were they well behaved ?—Y'es, and quiet and respectful to Miss Hunt when she spoke to them, and they spoke nicely to one another. It just reminded me of a teacher from a boardingschool out with her scholars for an airing. On other occasions the girls came over, and they used to beg to be allowed to stay half an hour longer when the attendant said it was time to go home They said they loved climbing trees, and that the only things they really enjoyed were climbinotrees and chopping wood. ° Ellen Theresa Branting examined on oath. 1. Mr., Russell.] You are manager of this Home? —Yes. 2. Y r ou have been here how many years?— Seven years and three-quarters. 3. Prior to your taking up any duties outside your own home, P think you were living in Hawke's Bay?— Yes. My people all live in Dannevirke. 4. And you married the late Dr. Branting, and some years ago he died? Yes. 5. You then took up nursing ?—I went Home to my mother, and then I came to Christchurch and took up nursing. 6. You were first Sub-matron of the Samaritan Home and then Matron? Y^es. 7. For how long?—I was Matron about six months. 8. When this institution started you accepted the appointment offered by the Government? —Yes. 9. You are not dependent on your salary. You have means of your own? Yes. 10. But you really have a love for this kind of work? —Yes. 11. May I say it is as much love of the work as the salary that keeps you here?— The salary does not worry me. 12. How long has the Home been started ?—I took up my duties on the Ist July, 1900. 13. And at the present time you have how many girls to look after, including those in residence and those out?— Eighty-six girls. 14. Of that number some fifty-four are residing in the Home now?—Y T es. 15. Apparently you get bad classes of girls here?— Yes. 16. And the object of the Home is to reform them?—l believe so. 17. What influence do you bring to bear on the girls for that purpose—moral suasion? Yes, as much as possible. 18. Do you take an opportunity of speaking to the girls privately, and of encouraging them to get out of their bad ways?—l think lam doing it all day long. 19. With regard to punishmentef'may I ask are they resorted to after every other expedient has failed?—As a last resort. 20. How many assistants have you in this Home?— Four attendants, a teacher, Sub-matron, and gardener at the present time. lam one short just now, since Miss Howden left. 21. What do you rear on the place outside?—We keep poultry and cows, we grow our own vegetables, and produce our own honey and firewood. 22. Do you find the Department are willing to give you everything in reason for running the Home?— They have been goodness itself so far as assisting us in every way is concerned. 23. The Department, in its efforts to reform these girls, lias not stinted you in any way? No. 24. Does the Department, through Mr. Pope and the other heads, take "a keen interest in the work?— Yes. 25. They appear to take a personal interest in every girl, judging by the correspondence?— Yes. At one time I think Mr. Pope knew every girl by name. 26. Does the Department follow in detail the affairs of every girl here? —Yes. 27. Do you judge from that that the Department takes a keen individual interest in each girl's career ?—Yes. 28. What offences do you find are the most prevalent here? —I think impudence is the most prevalent.

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29. When the girls come to you first, do you find, as a rule, they have no great moral sense? —Very little so far as the committed girls are concerned. The transferred girls are better. 30. Are they truthful girls, as a rule? —No. 31. Are they untruthful?— Most untruthful. 32. Do you find it easy to appeal to any sense of honour or responsibility in the girls?- - Some of the girls are more easily- appealed to than others, and some are hopeless. 33. When you find a girl commits a breach of discipline—l think you say impudence is the most general—what do you do in order to preserve discipline and to deter others from doing the same thing?—l tell the staff to speak to them three or four times before they take any notice of the impudence, and that especially newly committed girls are to be leniently dealt with, because they have not been under discipline, and it is harder for them to come down to the rules of an institution than the transferred girls. 34. What punishment follows if, after having the offence pointed out, a girl deliberately repeats it?— She is reported to me in the report-book set apart for that purpose. They put down in this book the offences of a girl for the week, and the book is handed in to me on the Sunday morning. 35. What punishment have the staff power to inflict without reference to you in the first place?— They might say they have no power to give any- punishment. They might give a girl a piece less for tea, and then come to me and say they have done so, and if I was not in the Home at the moment they would take a piece off them. 36. And about the so-called cell, have they your authority to put a girl in for a short or a long period ?—They can put a girl in and come and tell me, but if I am away from the Home they cannot tell me. 37. Do I understand that when one of the staff puts a girl in the cell she immediately reports to you, and you affirm or cancel what she has done? —Y T es. 38. In what cases are the more serious punishments inflicted, such as strapping?— When a girl knocks another girl down, and starts hitting and kicking her, I send her to bed as a rule, and strap her. 39. Do you find that efficacious in stopping assaults?— Yes. As a rule, I send her to the cell, and let her think it over, and then I go in and have a talk with her and tell her there is nothing for it but to strap her, and she says " Yes." 40. On any occasions have you known girls to assault members of the staff? —Yes; but not often. One girl kicked a staff on a varicose vein so badly that she was under the doctor for nearly six months. 41. And what is the more severe punishment still of strapping with twelve strokes inflicted for? —It is generally used for absconders or would-be absconders. 42. Do you find that these girls are prepared to assert themselves if discipline is not maintained ?—Yes. 43. If you were to abolish strapping "or serious offences against discipline what effect would that have on the staff?— The staff would all send in their resignations, because they could not live in the institution unless something equally good was provided in place of it. 44. I think at the present time you are short of accommodation in this building? —Very short, 45. If you have a third ward in which to put the more serious offenders, would it be a great advantage to you ?—Y'es ; and we hope it will do away with a great deal of corporal punishment. 46. With regard to girls who are approaching the age of twenty-one, when their disabilityceases, what is your opinion in the case of a girl whom you know, or have reason to believe, has not reformed at all, and will immediately resort to bad ways when released?—lt seems a pity to let her go. 47. Are you in favour of the law being altered so as to render it optional on the part of the Department, if the Magistrate finds that a girl is not a fit and proper person to let loose on society, to keep her here?—l think it would be a great advantage to the girl and-to society at large. 48. Would the fact that a girl knew her living here might be for an indeterminate period make her more amenable to discipline, and cause her to improve her ways so as to get out?—lt might; but, of course, it would have to be tried. 49. As a matter of fact, what could you do with a girl, say, of twenty, who is approaching every day the time when she will get away from you, and whose ways are determinedly bad, with a view to helping her ?—At present can do nothing. 50. You would agree,with the remarks of the Commissioner that strapping is not much use so far as she is concerned? —No. 51. And if a girl of twenty years and six months absconded, and took other girls with her, what would be the object of strapping her when she came back—not to reform her, certainly ?— Because it might prevent others doing the same thing. It might prevent another girl of twenty years and six months from doing exactly the same thing. 52. I think at Christmas time you gave the postman a gratuity of ss.?—Y 7 es; I gave it to somebody to give to the postman. I know I gave it, 53. Was that out of your own pocket, or out of the cash belonging to the institution?—l had it put into the refund. 54. You did not mean it to be a personal present out of your own pocket ?—No. 55. When you applied to get that money back from the Department, what was it charged to? —I do not know. I said to Miss Howden, " Put it down in the refund. Put it down to anything you like—dinners, fruit, fish, or anything." These vouchers were always coming backwards and forwards, and I told her to put it down to something. 56. Do you remember what item it was put down to?—I have not the slightest idea, I never see the vouchers or the refund.

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57. But you accept responsibility entirely for what was done? —Yes. 58. And now you find it was a wrong thing on your part to have done so, so far as the Audit Department is concerned? —I suppose so. Ido not know. 59. The payment was made in the ordinary course?— Yes. 60. Is there, any doubt about the postman getting the money?—He never thanked me for it, but I suppose he did. I believe he got the money. 61. When that voucher was sent out signed by you, were you under the belief, as you are now, that the money was paid to the postman?— Yes. 62. With regard to purchases for the girls, 1 think every month certain moneys are credited to the girls for this purpose?— Yes; a system of mark money. 63. And at the end of the month are you in tile habit of asking the girls whether they want any purchases made? —It is a regular system. The clerk makes out a ticket, with lollies on one side and goods on the other, and these are handed to the girls at the end of the month, with the amount of money they are entitled to, and the girls write down what they want. If a girl has wages she puts that down also. 64. The girls fill up this paper once a month?— Yes. Of course, they do not know the price of the goods, and they put down a price. 65. Then, at the end of the month you make the purchases?— Sometimes, and sometimes I hand the list into the shop and let them do it. For the last few months 1 seem to have got more what the girls want, so I have been doing it. 00. Have you an arrangement with the shop by which you got 10 per cent, discount off all these purchases?— Yes. When 1 first came, Strange and Co. gave me 10 per cent, discount on my private account and on the Department's also. 67. Am I correct in saying you do get 10 per cent, allowed on all the purchases made for the girls?—Y r es, through me. 68. Supposing a girl gives you a shilling to buy an article and it costs Is. 3d., is that 3d. taken out of the girl's future money? —No. I always think it will come off in the discount in the long run. 69. Then you pay the Is. 3d. ?—Yes. 70. Then, if the money you have to go round and the 10 per cent, covers all the purchases, that is all right?— Yes. 71. Have you ever on any occasion retained one shilling of that 10 per cent, for your own use?— Never that I know of. It was always overdrawn, 72. Have you at any time paid up out of your own pocket any moneys in order to get the girls the goods at the prices they have put down?— Yes; often. 73. Is it a fact that if the children do not give you quite enough money to pay for what they want you pay it out of your own pocket, if the discount is not sufficient? —Yes. 74. Has that been your practice all through?— Yes. Sometimes the discount is sufficient. 75. Have you ever endeavoured to get a refund from the Department or the children of moneys paid by you for them?— Never. I very often tell the girls they are overdrawing, but I never take it from them. 76. Now, I wish to go through the evidence given at this inquiry. Has the girl G J ever objected to physical work, or complained to you upon any occasion about the outside work being too hard?— None of them have. 77. In your opinion, is the outside work necessary and desirable for these girls?— Yes. It is much better than laundry-work. They must have some work to do, else what are we to do with them? I find they increase in weight and colour before they have been here six weeks. 78. Have you on many occasions supervised the work yourself?— Yes; I am always out and about. 79. On any occasions have you thought the girls were being too hard worked?—lf I have seen a girl working too hard I have stopped her. Some will work too hard, but the majority want a good deal of spurring on. 80. In regard to the lupins, have you ever noticed that work too hard for the girls?—lt is very easy work. 81. One or two of the girls complained that they were not allowed water over there, and others said if they did not take water with them they were not allowed to go back for it : can you explain the position to the Commissioner? —Yes. I saw the girls breaking out in spots. It was pretty hot in January, and I said that they were drinking too much cold water, and that they must not have it, and that if they wanted water it would be better to take a little oatmeal water with them, and not to come in and drink cold water on their return. Another reason is that two or three girls plotted to abscond. The water was put in the lupins a little way to keep cool, and the girls made it an excuse to go to the back of the lupins whilst the staff's attention was directed elsewhere, and make a bolt through the lupins. I said if that was the case they could not have water —they must take a drink before they went. That was very near the end of the time, and I do not remember any more about it. Nothing was reported to me about it. 82. Was there ever any attempt to deprive the girls of water if it was necessary for them? — Not that I am aware of. 83. Most of the girls said they could take water if they liked? —They were told they could do so.' 84. With regard to the dress put on absconders, is that accounted much of a disgrace by the girls?—No; but they do hot like it. If there is any holiday or concert on I always say to the girls, " Now, to-night you can take off that dress and put your own dress on for the time being, if you promise to behave yourself." Sometimes they avail themselves of this permission and sometimes they do not.

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85. This girl also complains of the food. Is that a general complaint in the Home?—l have not'heard it except on one occasion, and then I think it was a new staff, who was not quite up to her work, and that day dinner was decidedly short; but I did not think it would hurt the girls to go short for one meal; they had plenty to eat at the other two. That was only on one occasion, but I heard of it for a week afterwards. 86. This girl also said she had to scrub upstairs in the winter-time without boots and stockings and with cold water? —I never heard of it. They scrub without boots, because otherwise they get their stockings wet, and have cold feet all day. I thought it better they should be without their boots and stockings for the ten minutes they were scrubbing, so that they might have them warm and comfortable for the rest of the day. 87. Have any. of the girls ever complain d to you that Miss Mills was unduly hard upon them? —Sometimes. 88. Have you noticed that Miss Mills is hard on them?—l think her bark is worse than her bite. 89. Is she kind to the girls, as a rule?—l think she is very good-natured with them. 90. Have you ever seen anything at all which would justify- any complaint by a girl that Miss Mills pressed them hardly?—No, except that she is rather sharp with them sometimes; but they are very aggravating at times. 91. With regard to the complaint that you boxed D D 's ears one day?—l think Miss Simpson and Miss Dean were both present, and they said I did not do it. 92. Did you?—No, I did not box her ears on that occasion. 93. Have you on any occasion since you have been here made it a practice on your part to hit girls upon, the ears I —lt is not my practice, but I would not say I have never done it. 94. Can you remember any instance in which you have done it ?—No; but still I am quite sure I have done it. I generally give them a good slap on the arms, and generally finish off with a slap on the plait or back of the head. I know it is against the rules, but I have done it. 95. You know striking any one on the ears is liable to cause deafness? —Yes; I would never think of doing it. 96. The Commissioner.] Under what circumstances have you done it? —When they have been very impudent. 97. You admit it is against the regulations, and I want to know under what circumstances you do it—at a time when you are extremely- angry, or on the spur of the moment?—l think it is because they have been so dreadfully impudent. 98. And suddenly you have been roused to anger?—No; I do not feel any anger against them; I really do not. I feel they have been very naughty girls, giving great impudence, and, instead of looking a bit penitent about it, they have come in with a don't-care look about them. I very seldom feel angry with them. 99. Mr. Russell.] Why have you been cutting the lupins down?—ln order to give us a better view when the girls abscond, and to prevent the paddocks always being a source of danger to the institution. I got the Department to take the paddock so that we might keep the swaggers out of it, and also make a better place for the cows to feed. 100. With regard to punishment in the cell, there is the case of J L , who says she was left there all day. I believe the office is close by?— Straight opposite. 101. And if a girl were forgotten, could she not attract attention at once by knocking on the door? —Yes. 102. Did you ever hear until the other day of this episode of the girl being put in the cell and forgotten?—l heard that a girl had been forgotten at tea-time, but on no other occasion. 103. Then her evening meal had been missed? —I never heard of the other. Had she been forgotten and had there been no one in the office she had only to rap on the end wall for the kitchengirls to have heard her. 104. Are you of opinion that the girl's statement is true — that she was there from early morning until late at night without any attention at all?—I do not believe it. I do not think the other girls would allow her to go without food. 105. Would the kitchen-girls have known all about it?— Yes, because it is their business to see that her meals are carried in. 106. Would they have told Miss Simpson they had not taken Julia's food in? —Yes, over and over again. 107. And the girls who sat alongside her at table would know?—lt is possible. 108. Do you think one meal might have been missed? —Not one meal without some one seeing the girl had not had her meal. 109. Is it the duty of these girls in the kitchen to see that any one in the cell has their meal? —It may not be their duty, but it is their business. 110. Can you conceive it possible for a girl to be missed by the staff by these four girls and by Miss Simpson?—l do not think it is possible. 111. Did J L complain to you at the time?—l never hoard anything about it until this inquiry. 112. One witness said she was strapped by the Sub-matron instead of by yourself : will you explain how that came about? —I was in bed with influenza. 113. Has Miss Hunt on any occasion ever administered that punishment when you have been in the Home? —Yes. H4. Except under your direction?— Never. 115. When you are away from the Home is Miss Hunt in charge?— Miss Harrison has been. 1 16. The girls say occasionally that you take the side of the staff, and never listen to them: is there any truth in that? -I never allowed the girls to think I put them before the staff so far as authority is concerned:

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117. If a girl makes a complaint about a member of the staff, what is the procedure adopted? —I hoar the other side of the question first, and then 1 hear what she has to say, and then I tell the girl I will talk to her about it later. 118. Have you ever had to blame the staff as against the girls?— Sometimes. 119. And in such a case you have not hesitated to express your opinion?—Oh, no. 120. But you probably do not do so in front of the girls, for obvious reasons?— That is so. 121. The girls say you take the opportunity to speak of their faults before all the other girls at prayer-time: will you explain what your procedure is in regard to that?—lf there is something flagrantly wrong going on amongst the girls I. generally talk about it to them. We have ten minutes' conversation almost every day when I am taking prayers at night, and it is considered a privileged time for the girls and myself to discuss anything that is going on in the Home. If I think there is something wrong going on —something sneaky, or stealing, or lying, or bad conduct—we have it out together, and it is never considered that I am holding up their faults to them. 122. I suppose your object is to make an impression on all the girls of the school?— Yes, generally. There may be a girl who is doing something very bad, and the other girls have complained to me about it, and I usually- say, " I will just take this opportunity to tell you so-and-so." 123. The girl C A says she absconded from Mrs. Buchanan's place because you told a lot of matters about her sister :do you remember anything about that?—l do not remember verymuch about it. I told lier I did not wish her to have anything to do with her sister ; that her sister was not likely to do her any good, from what I had heard. I had heard some years previously from a lady who had charge of a home in Wellington that she had tried to get this girl E A into her home, and she would not go. Afterwards I heard —but I could not prove it—that this girl was not doing as well as she might be, and I did not think she would do C any good. Ido not think I said any more about her than that. 124. Is it true, as the girls say, that if they talk at table they are sent out without their meals ?—I think on one or two occasions they may have been sent out when they have been most persistent talkers, and after they have been warned over and over again. They are not often sent out without their meals. I may say, it is most disturbing to the reading to have conversation going on. 125. With regard to the last lot of girls who tried to abscond and were found in the loft: were you satisfied from the evidence you obtained that the girls really meant to abscond and go to a bad house?— Yes. 126. Who was the ringleader in that?—H M . 127. Any other girl?—E S . 128. Had H M tried to get away before?— She was always trying to abscond. 129. How many of them were strapped?— Four. I gave H and E twelve strokes each and the other two girls six each. 130. Whose hair was cut off?—H M 's and E S 's. 131. Had you authority to do that? —I wrote to Wellington, and asked them to wire me authority, and they did so. 132. Was the authority wired at once, or was time taken to consider the matter?—l forget, but I think the wire came the next day. 133. What did the girl say when her hair was taken off?— She said she did not like her wool coming off, but it stopped her from running away. 134. Have you had any trouble with her since? —Yes; she has been very troublesome. 135. The girl E S went away, and you found she was living with a man for nearly a month? —Yes. 136. When she came back was she looking thin?— She was thin, and I thought she had not had enough to eat. 137. Was there anything about her to suggest she was ill?—No, except that she was thin. 138. How long had she been back when you strapped her? —Two days. She came back on the Tuesday and I strapped her on the Thursday. 139. How many days after that was it that she developed appendicitis and was taken to the Hospital? —On the Sunday she complained of pains in her head, and I put on a barilla pack, and she seemed easier, and slept for an hour in the afternoon. She seemed better the next day, and then she got worse again, and got so bad that I said we must have the doctor in. 140. Did the doctor suggest that her disposition was in any way accelerated or made worse by the strapping? —No. The doctor spoke to her, and she said she had had a very bad time when out, and she was glad to be back in the Home. 141. Where is that girl now?— She has again absconded. 142. When did she leave here?—On Saturday evening. 143. Who did she take with her this time?—l E . 144. Has I E absconded before? —Yes. 1.45. Is this the second time E S has absconded? —The third time. 146. Have you any idea where they are? —I found out where they were on Monday morning, and I sent the police there, and 1 have since been informed that as the police went to the front door the girls left by the back. 147. You do not know where they are?—l do not. 148. With regard to the girl A G , you had some difference with Mrs. Bean about her?— Yes. 149. Mrs. Bean said you were determined to keep her and she was determined to get her out: will you tell the Commissioner why you wanted to get that girl back to the Home when the Matron of the Samaritan Home had reported she was fit to go to Mrs. Bean's?— Well, I was responsible

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for her, and she certainly had a very strange way when I had her here, and 1 wanted to be quite sure she was fit to go to service. I thought also, Mrs. Bean being so much away from home, and having a large family of children, perhaps the situation would only make A worse than she was when I put her in the Samaritan Home. 150. Mrs. Bean says in her evidence that when she first met you accidentally you gave her a dreadful account of the girl: do you remember what you said to Mrs. Bean about the girl?—l cannot think 1 gave her a dreadful account of the girl. I said she had a very violent temper, that her mother had died in the asylum, and that 1 understood she was of immoral tendencies, and that possibly to put her to service would only be to increase the illegitimate population. 151. Did you use the words Mrs. Bean imputed to you—that before you got her back there would probably be a few bastards in the world? —I did not. 152. Is that, a word you are accustomed to at all?—It is not. 153. Probably you used the more polite equivalent, and the other word is not yours, but Mrs. Bean's?—lt is not mine. 154. When the girl came back the second time was she elevated to the first class?— Yes. i thought perhaps it would be quieter. She was very nervous, and very much like when I put her in the Samaritan Home. 155. Did you give her any more privileges or advantages than the ordinary girls in.the first class receive? —Beyond giving her a cup of tea and hot milk for supper, I do not think I did. 156. Did you go out of your way to show her special marks of favour? —No. 157. She says she was overwhelmed with the kindness she received here on the second visit? —Probably she was led to suppose she would not have kindness, and that might have astonished her. 158. Do the girls in the first class get more privileges than the girls in the second? —Oh, yes. 159. The girl was not accustomed to the first before, and may have mistaken the difference for kindness?— Probably. 160. She has regularly corresponded with you up to this inquiry, and I think she wrote to you when Mr. Fendall's name appeared in the papers? —Yes. 161. Was this letter Which I will read written after the agitation about the Home started: "My Dear Matron, —I hope you got my letter. I am writing to ask you if you will let Maple write to me instead of you, if you cannot find time. I would sooner you if you could. How are the bees? Have you had any more swarms? Dear Matron, I find this lot so hard to bear. To think what has happened and what, is still going on. Everybody knows it is me, although,.my name was not published. 1 feel as if I shall go mad. Dear Matron, as I am still under your charge, lam going to ask advice from you. You see by the papers the public are wanting to know why I preferred suicide to returning to the Home. Well, it was like this : I found it so hard to control myself while there, and also I was very unhappy, and among so many girls who were so very annoying, I found it hard to control my temper, and then I knew what awaited me, and that was strap, which. I dreaded after once having it. Well, I received much more kindness than ever I expected to receive, and then 1 was on the first class. Dear Matron, do you think a letter in the paper would satisfy the public for the reason I refused to return to the Home? I will wait your answer, hoping this will find you all well. No more for the present "? —Yes, evidently. 162. With regard to you holding back the leport which the Matron of the Samaritan Home gave you, Mrs. Bean suggested you suppressed it : will you explain how- it came to be held back ? —I was expecting Mr. Pope down from Wellington, and I held it until he came. 163. Did you want to talk the matter over with him?— Yes; I thought it was the simpler way. 164. If you had felt the girl was safe to go out, would .you have put any obstacle in the way? —No. 165. Did-you know Mrs. Bean would be away from the house a good deal on her parish work, and would leave this girl with the children ?—Yes; I thought it meant leaving A very much to herself. 166. Did you wish to get into any conflict with Mrs. Bean over the matter? —No; I had always had a great liking for Mrs. Bean up till then. 167. Was this one of the girls mixed up with the Quail Island episode?— Yes. 168. Did that influence you at all?—No; I had forgotten it, 169. A G says that on one occasion when she complained she was worked too hard she was thumped on the back, and waer'told she was always complaining : do you remember anything about that?—l do not. 170. Would you thump her on the back for making a complaint?—l do not remember ever doing it to her or any other girl. 171. She says that whenever she tried to do good the more everything went against her and the more the staff growled at her : were you aware at any time that the staff treated this girl differently from any of the others?—No; but she was a very uncontrollable girl. She was always working the other girls up, and then they retaliated. 172. She said that many times she had to eat raw artichokes because she was hungry : do you believe that?— No. 173. Was there any occasion when the hunger of the girl could not have been satisfied in the ordinary way?— No. 174. At no time have you been short of food?— No. The Government supplies us with everything we want. 175. She also said she had to hang out clothes in her bare feet when there was snow on the ground? I never heard of it before. Probably she took off her shoes raid stockings and did it, but I do not think anybody made her.

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1.76. With regard to Miss Howdcn's appointment, do you produce a letter you wrote to the Department at the time you made this engagement with Miss Howden?—Yes, as follows: "25th June, i 1907.—The Secretary for Education, Wellington.—Sir,—A Miss Howden, recommended by Mrs. Scale, applied for the position of clerk in this institution. She seems a suitable woman, over thirty, and has been clerk in Coker's Hotel and Warner's Hotel here. Her people are farmers in Geraldine, I understand. Mrs. Scale says she is capable and loyal, and would be a help to manage the girls. Of course, it would be new work, and take some learning. After a long talk, I told her that I thought the Department would give her £1 a week till the new wing was opened, and then she, with Miss Hunt, would probably get £60 a year. She will live at the Home, and take certain duties when required, in addition to clerical work during the day —in fact, be a useful person in the Home. She is anxious to be settled. I shall be glad of an early reply. — E. T. Branting." 177. Up to that time what did you want? —I wanted some one to learn the clerical work y and also to help with the girls morning and evening. 178. Who was doing the clerical work at that time?-—Miss Hunt and myself. 179. Was Miss Hunt exclusively employed at the clerical work? —Oh, no. 180. In addition, she was performing attendant's duties?— Every afternoon, and she went down with the girl who looked after the cows and the poultry in the morning. 181. When Miss Howden came to see you, what did you tell her would be her duties? —I said I thought the three of us would make a strong combination and work happily together for the benefit of the institution, and that she would help Miss Hunt in her duties and relieve occasionally. 182. Miss Howden alleges that you engaged her as a clerk alone?—l did not. 183. Was it clearly understood that Miss Howden was to be a clerk attendant?— Yes; that was the position. 184. Very much the same as Miss Hunt was doing?—No; Miss Hunt had more duties than Miss Howden. Miss Howden would only relieve on an afternoon when Miss Hunt had to take a girl to a situation. 185. When Miss Hunt was here, would Miss Howden have any other duties than her clerical duties? —Yes. In the evening, when the staff was off duty, she sat with the girls, and helped to keep order in the workroom. There were always two of the staff off duty, and that made us somewhat weak. 186. Miss Howden complains that she was not. engaged to do cow work : what does she mean by that?—l do not know. ' 187. Did Miss Howden have to supervise the milking? —She had to be with the girl who did the milking and attended to the poultry—just to walk about. 188. She had nothing to do with the animals themselves?—No; none of the staff have. 189. That was understood when Miss Howden came?—Y'es. 190. And the salary was to be what?—£s2 a year, until the new wing was opened. 191. That is, the building that has not been commenced yet?— Yes; I thought it would have been commenced before now. 192. What was to happen when the building was opened?—l said I hoped then to be able to give her clerical work only. The staff would be readjusted, and there would be more of them, and things would be different; but that until then things must go on as they were. 193. What salary was Miss Hunt getting at the time you engaged Miss Howden? —I think it was £45, but I would not be positive. It may have been £50. 194. Miss Howden was getting quite as much as Miss Hunt?— More than her. 195. How long had Miss Hunt been here then?— Two years and a half, and she was also doing almost all the work Miss Howden was to do. 196. Who has been doing the clerical work since Miss Howden left?— Miss Hunt. 197. In addition to all her other duties?— Yes. 198. Is she getting any more money for that now?— She is getting more than £50 a year now. 199. Have you asked for a clerk who would do nothing else? —No. 200. Would you have any trouble in getting a woman to act as clerk attendant? —No. 201. Did Miss Howden make any objection to going on these lines? —Not the slightest. 202. Did you use these words to Miss Howden after she was engaged, " probably you would like to relieve Miss Hunt every other week, and that will enable you to have a long lie in every other week " I —l do not think I sajd- such a thing to anybody. 203. If it was Miss Howden's duty to relieve Miss Hunt you would tell her so : you would not pat it that way? —I do not think so. lam not in the habit of using these indefinite terms. 204. After Miss Howden was here a short time she went to Timaru on some case of sickness with her people, and was away a fortnight?— Yes. 205. Was she on full pay at that time? —Yes. 206. Who was doing her duty?— Miss Hunt. 207. I think you wrote to her that if she wished to stay any longer she had better send in her resignation? —Yes. 208. Did Miss Howden then come back? —Yes. 209. How long was it after that before she had the influenza? —Not very long. 210. Between the time Miss Howden returned from Timaru and the time she had the influenza, did she complain at all about being delicate? —She had a cough, and was not a strong woman. 211. When she got the influenza, it is suggested you had no sympathy with her in any shape or form : tell us what was done?—] said she had better stay in bed. The doctor ordered her hot baths, and Miss Mills attended to her while she had them. I sent her in such diet as I thought it advisable she should take, but she refused to take it. She would not do anything I thought was for her benefit, so we left her to the doctor.

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212. Did you do what you could for her?—Y'es; what I would do for anybody else. 213. Have you had influenza here?— Yes; two or three times. 214. And other members of the staff? —Yes. 215. Have they been nursed here? —Yes; and they have always done exactly what I told them to do. 216. Had you any idea that Miss Howden was in a dangerous condition?— No. 217. I think she soon recovered after she got to the Hospital, and then she came back?— Yes. i 218. After she came back, did anything occur that made you feel there was something going on in the Home that was not compatible with discipline?— There was a great deal of unrest, both in the first and second classes. The girls were very unmanageable, and I could not understand what was the matter. I could not make out why they were so naughty and so rude and so abominable. 219. What did you do?—I did not do anything. 220. When was it you had reason to believe that the unrest was due to a certain extent to Miss Howden? —One evening when Mrs. Kaye was holding a class here Miss Mills came to me and said she had a dreadful thing to tell me. Miss Mills was rather given to exaggerating things a little, and I rather laughed at her. She said she had something this time, and she told me Miss Howden was trying to tamper with the girls. I asked her how she knew it, and she said H M told her. She said that two or three of the girls were talking in the passage, and somebody said, "Shall we tell Miss Mills?" and the other girls said, "Oh, great big mouth, do not tell." Miss Mills said, " Come to my room if you have anything to say." She had no idea what she was going to hear. She thought it was something about running away. Then H told her Miss Howden had told her my name was going to be "Walker," because of something in the paper about cutting off her hair. I forget what else she said. Altogether, I thought it was a most extraordinary remark for an attendant to make. If the girls had said it I should simply have taken no notice of it, but I thought it was dreadful that one of the attendants should talk on these lines and say it was " hellish " to be here. 221. Did you have the girls brought in before you?—No; I waited until Mrs. Kaye came out from her class. I always saw her to the tram, and I told her going along the road what Miss Mills had told me. She said, "I shall go back with you; this is serious." We went back, and she asked me where was the best place to talk the matter over without the girls hearing. I said I did not know where we would be free from interruption except in the schoolroom, and we went there. I fetched in Miss Mills and Miss Hunt, and Mrs. Kaye then suggested the girls' statements should be taken in writing in her presence. So I sent Miss Hunt to the office for paper and ink, and H M was, I think, the first girl fetched downstairs. All the girls slept in different dormitories, so there could be no talking to each other on the subject. H came down, and made the statement which was handed in. 222. Did that girl know before she came into the room what she had been sent for?—No; she was in bed. 223. Did she make these statements voluntarily or were they put to her?— Mrs. Kaye warned her she must speak nothing but the truth, and that she was not called upon to make any statement/about Mjiss Howden if she did not wish to, but that as she had made it to Miss Mills she would like the girl to repeat it. I took it down, and H signed it, and Mrs. Kaye signed it. 224. Was the same procedure adopted in regard to the two other girls?— Yes. 225. Did any one girl have an opportunity to tell another one what was going to be asked her? —No, because they were in separate dormitories. 226. As soon as a girl made her statement, was she sent back to bed?—No; she sat down in the room. 227. There was no speaking by one girl to another before making a statement?— No. 228. Then, these statements were made independently by the girls?— Yes. ( 229. Was one girl's statement shown to another?— No. '230. When did Miss Howden know about it?— The girls told Miss Howden about it, and she came to me the next morning. 231. What did Miss Howden say?—l showed her the statements, and she denied them. I asked her if she was prepared to put her name to these, and she said " Yes," and she wrote across them, " I absolutely deny these charges, 'y I should like to say, in connection with this matter, that Miss Howden thought it was impossible these girls could have made these statements, so I sent Miss Hunt to fetch the three girls in. They came in, and all three, in the presence of Miss Hunt and myself, told Miss Howden she was a liar, and Miss Howden told them they were. Altogether it was a most disagreeable scene, and we sent the girls out of the room, as nothing more could be done. 232. When did you first know that the two other girls were prepared to say that similar statements had been made to them ?—After Miss Howden left. 233. Then I think you sent these letters to the Department, with the letter that was read the other day?— Mr. Pope came down on the 30th December. I told Miss Howden previous to that I should keep an open mind on the subject —that I knew the girls were most untruthful, but that I had never known them to go against their own interests. 234. In what way were they going against their own interests?— Miss Howden was very good to them. When she went out she always brought them in lollies and fruit and gave them things. She took a good few of them out to afternoon tea, with my permission, and so on. When Mr. Pope came down I showed him these letters, and said, " I do not know whether you think there is anything in them, but will you kindly look over them." He told me he had no hesitation in saying these statements should go' to Wellington at once. 235. In your letter you warned the Department the girls were untruthful?— Yes.

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236. Did you write any private letters to the Department?— No. 237. All the Department had were the statement of the girls and your letter?— Yes. 238. What was the next thing you heard from the Department?—l think Miss Howden must have been telegraphing to the Department, because I had a letter to say she would be answered through me in the course of the next day. The next was she was asked to send in her resignation. I think that came by letter. 239. Miss Howden, of course, was living in the Home all this time? —Yes. 240- What happened then?— Miss Howden said she refused to resign until it suited her and she had thought things over. I told her if that was so there was no other course open to me but to wire her decision to the Department. This 1 did, and the Department sent a message that Miss Howden was to be dismissed, and to be.paid a month's salary in lieu of notice. 241. Up to the time when you had reason to believe that Miss Howden was undermining your influence with the girls, had you any feeling against her?— No. She certainly applied herself to learn the clerical work. 242. You had no complaints to make against her? —No. 243. You found her, so far as you could see, conscientious and loyal? —So far as I knew. 244. And I suppose you were greatly surprised when you discovered to the contrary?—l was horrified. 245. Your own personal feelings to Miss Howden were the same as to the other members of the staff? —Yes. I have nothing against her whatever. 246. Have you in any- way tried to do anything to get Miss Howden out of her billet except sending these papers to Wellington?— No. It is too much trouble to teach them their duties to want to get rid of them. 247. Miss Harrison is the schoolmistress? —Yes. 248. Miss Harrison apparently thinks you have no sympathy with her work. I believe you have certain views on the education of the girls ?—Yes. 249. Do you consider it is more important they should learn arithmetic than Shakespeare's plays?— Much more important. 250. Your own idea as to their education is to fit them with useful knowledge for life?— Yes. 251. Have you yourself when you have had the girls with you in a shop tried to get them to calculate for the"purpose of exercising their minds? —Yes, to see what they could do. 252. That is to say, you have given them the number of yards and the price, and asked them what it came to ? —Y'es. 253. Are you specially anxious that the girls should be trained in arithmetic, mental and otherwise? —Yes; I think that is the most important. 254. Did you write this letter to the Department, viz. : " 9th January, 1908.—The Secretary for Education," Wellington, —Sir,—ln reply to the School Report of the 31st December, 1907, 1 think that in trying to keep up with the syllabus Miss Harrison attempts too much, and that it would be better if the girls were kept more at reading, writing, and arithmetic. Nearly all the girls who come hete are past the school-age, and that being so, the syllabus need not be adhered to. It is most important that all girls should be able to read, write an intelligible letter, and be able to do easy sums in mental arithmetic, so as to calculate the cost of things while in a shop. This 1 find service girls unable to do : also to manage their wages. I think it is a mistake for girls who have passed the Fifth and Sixth Standards in the above subjects to attend the school. There is much otherwise for them to learn to fit them to earn their living, and little enough time to learn it while here, as they have much to unlearn. I would also like to say that it seems waste of time in most cases for girls of eighteen years and over to attend school. Their minds are past school work, and they do n.ot apply themselves. Plenty of work can be found for them in the institution. If girls who have passed the Fifth and Sixth Standards, and also the girls who are over eighteen, attended a class once a week on the laws of health, and were otherwise exempt from school, except drill, it would, I think, be found that the teacher having fewer standards to teach would have better results instead of a smattering. Possibly this would be better than_ taking all the girls on alternate days. I wish to say that Miss Harrison is a very conscientious teacher. —E. T. Branting"?—Yes. , 255. What are the differences between yourself and Miss Harrison in regard to the teaching' —What I state in that letter. 256. What does Miss Harrison want?—I think she keeps to the syllabus too much. That is all I know about it. ,„„.„. , , ,-i 257. Miss Harrison thinks she should stick to the syllabus?— Miss Harrison would like to see them at school all day long. , 258. Otherwise, is there any friction between yourself and Miss Harrison J —JNo. You think a good deal of her?— Yes; she is a very straightforward woman. 260. And doing good work for the girls? —Yes, to the best of her ability. 261. Generally, during the eight years and a half you have been here,' have you found the training of the home is doing the girls good?— Yes; they are very much improved. We have turned out a number of good service girls, who are doing very well. 262. Can you remember of your own knowledge girls who after they have left the Home have turned out immoral and loose women or failures generally ?—Some of them have. 263. Can you give me any idea of the proportion ?—lt is a very small proportion. Of course, a large number of girls are very old, and I do not get a chance with them. 264. What do you mean by very old?— They are nearly twenty-one. 265. Has your" past experience with the younger girls been hopeful ?—Yes ; they are, doing very well considering what they come from. 266. Do you find that the girls get more refined and more womanly in the Home?— Yes, most of them.

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267. I suppose when they come in they are of the coarsest possible material? —Some of them are pretty coarse. 268. Do you keep in touch with all the girls you can after they leave here? —Yes, every girl. I have a large correspondence with them. 269. Are the letters which the Commissioner has seen letters written spontaneously?— Yes. 270. And do you generally find from their correspondence that they look back with a certain amount of affection to the time they stayed here? —The better class of girls do. 271. Can you recall any instances where girls after they have left here have absolutely refused to have anything to do with the Home or yourself?— One or two. 272. They nave never been near the Home nor written?— No. 273. Do you find that the girls' physical development improves while here? —Yes, at once. 274. Is there any feeling amongst them, so far as you can see, that they are outcasts, as Dr. Symes put it the other day?—No; rather that they are doing the Government a favour by coming here. 275. And generally are they happy and cheerful?— Yes; too noisy altogether. 276. Are your relations with the staff generally all right? —Yes; we always seem to get on very well together. 277. There are no exceptions at all? —Not that I know of. 278. If you can get some system of classification, will that help you very much? —Yes, a great deal. 279. Have you any suggestion to make in regard to the staff? Should their hours be shortened or their pay increased? —The Department from time to time increases their pay without solicitation. 280. With regard to this reception-room, may I ask if there is any examination made except an ocular examination? —No. 281. Is that merely for the purpose of seeing whether a girl requires the doctor or not?— That is so. 282. The Commissioner.} When is this examination made? —As soon after she comes in as possible. 283. In the case of every girl sent here?— Those who are committed or who have absconded. 284. Mr. Russell.] There is nothing further than that?— That is all. 285. And the moment you are satisfied on that point?— Nothing more is done. 286. The Commissioner.] I suppose you would prefer that examination to be made by a medical officer ?—Very much. 287. Have you ever suggested to the Department it should be? —No. 288. Why?—lt seemed to be part of my duty, and I have had a training as a nurse. It is not a pleasure. 289. Mr. Eussell.] Is it in order to try and economize you have never sent for the doctor?—l never thought about it. 290. Has any question been raised by the Department that an extra fee might be wanted for such work?—l never thought of that. 291. You might explain about the diluting of the syrup, and how that came about?—ln the first instance it happened that they were giving the girls a great deal of jam, and I said, " Why not give them golden syrup with their boiled rice?" Last winter we were very short of vegetables, and a good deal of rice was used, partly as a vegetable and partly for puddings. I said when I went to school we had boiled rice and treacle and water. I said the water would make the treacle run better, and it would be economical, and teach the girls economy. They then said they were going to give them some on their bread, and that it would not spread. I said to put a little water in it, that it would not hurt them, as they had food enough. I had no feeling in the matter. It was not done to economize and keep down the expense. 292. Have you ordered it to be discontinued now?—We have not used treacle for some months. 293. If you use it again it will not be diluted? —Certainly not. 294. Mr. Salter.] Are all punishments entered in the register on the day on which they are inflicted? —No; Ido not think they are. They are entered in a small book, and then transferred to the punishment register. The clerk should see to that. 295. Has this not been your practice : When punishments are inflicted they are entered on a rough sheet, and then that sheet is submitted to you once a month, and after you have revised it it is then copied into the punishment register? —No; I have never done that that I know of. 296. You swear that you have never had submitted to you by the clerk a list of punishments; that you have revised it, and then the list as revised has been entered in the register ?—Never, to my knowledge. 297. You know the regulation in regard to the register, which says, " In such book a record of all corporal punishment, all confinement in cells, of all continuous restriction of diet as is indicated in clauses (a) and (b) of regulation 122, and of an}' other punishment named in these regulations, shall be made on the day on which the punishment is inflicted." That has not been done? —No. 298. Are you prepared to swear positively that the list of punishments submitted to you for revision has never been in any way altered —that is to say, you would notice a girl put in the cell for a certain time for a certain offence, and would then say that the punishment was too great for the offence, and would then reduce the punishment to be entered? —No, never. 299. You swear that positively? —I am quite willing to swear that. 300. And you never gave any instructions to the clerk to have that done? —Not that I can ever remember. 301. And it was never done? —Not that I ever remember. 15-H. 21,

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302. Does that book contain, according to these regulations, a register of all corporal punishments ?—So far as I know. 303. Of all confinement in the cells? —Over three hours. 304. And of all continuous restriction of diet as indicated in this Regulation 122? —Yes, I think all continuous restriction of diet. 305. Are you sure?—So far as I know. 306. But no confinement in the cell for a shorter period than three hours has been entered there? —Never. 307. Why?. —It has never been done, and I thought the present regulation was the same as the old rule. 308. I think you have already said that some of the attendants have inflicted corporal punishments?— Yes. 309. Frequently?—No; very seldom. I nearly always do it myself. 310. When you have inflicted it yourself on several occasions, I think you have inflicted the maximum number of strokes ?—Yes. 311. Did it ever occur to you it might be advantageous, or a good thing, to try- a smaller number as a deterrent?— No. 312. Is it because the regulation gives you the privilege of inflicting twelve strokes that you gave twelve strokes? —No; because I thought they deserved twelve. 313. Now, there is a regulation which says that no inmate shall be punished more than once for the same offence. I believe the evidence shows that in some cases for the same offence you have put the offender in the cell for several hours, you have given her twelve strokes with the strap, and restricted her diet, as in the case of H M ?—Yes. 314. Is that not three separate punishments for the one offence? —I do not know. That is the ordinary punishment. 315. Surely if a girl receives twelve strokes of the strap that should be an end of the punishment so far as she is concerned. If in addition to that she is put in the cell and on to a restricted diet, that is three punishments for the one offence? —That is the usual thing. In addition to that, they have the runaway dress on for an indefinite period. 316. With regard to the punishment dress, the regulation says, " Punishment by the imposition of some badge of degradation or of some special article of dress may be inflicted, but not without the sanction of the Minister." Do you obtain the sanction of the Minister to use that form of punishment in every case?— No. 317. You simply got a general authority to use the punishment dress, and you use it at'your own discretion ? —Yes. 318. The Commissioner.] What do you mean by "general authority"?— Mr. Heywood wrote to the Department about it, and asked if I could put it on at my discretion. 319. Have you a record of it?— Yes. 320. I would like to see it, because it is evidence that the Department does not insist on compliance with its own regulations? —I will get it. 321. Mr. Salter.] Regulation 112 says, "Light shall not be excluded from any- cell to such an extent as to make it difficult for a person to read ordinary newspaper type; and when a cell is occupied a light shall be shown therein from dusk to daylight." I want to know whether that has been done when girls have been confined in the cell ?—Yes. There may have been occasions when no light was shown, but I do not know of them. 322. Do you take pains to see that this particular regulation is adhered to?—I certainly do. 323. What lamp is provided?—A hurricane lantern. 324. Where is that placed?—lt is put just outside the two cells, and it is there from dusk to dawn. 325. Would the light from that lantern be of any practical use to the inmate in the cell?—I think so. It certainly throws light into the cell. 326. C A swore that she was in the cell for a month, mostly- locked up—those are her own words ?—"-That is not true. 327. Have you, according to the regulations, obtained the sanction of the Stipendiary Magistrate, or two Justices of the Peace, or of the Minister for that punishment?— No. The girl could not stand it to begin with, and I am sure she never did it. 328. Do you make it a practice to obtain the necessary sanction where confinement has been for more than forty-eight hours? —Yes. 329. From whom?—l write to the Department. 330. Before you put the girl in the cell? —No. 331. If she'were in for more than forty-eight hours it would take more than forty-eight hours to get a reply from Wellington as to whether you could keep her in any longer ?—I generally write to the Department, and ask them to wire a reply. 332. Regulation 116 says, "In a reformatory any inmate may be confined in a cell for any period not exceeding one week, but if the period exceeds forty-eight hours the sanction of a Stipendiary Magistrate, a Justice of the Peace, or of the Minister must be previously obtained " : do you obtain the authority of either the Minister, or the Magistrate, oi of a Justice of the Peace to put a girl in a coll for more than forty-eight hours?—l have very seldom put a girl in the cell for more than forty-eight hours. That is a long time to be locked up. 333. G J says she was in the cell from the 2nd until the Bth of November?— That means spread over that time. 334. The punishment register says simply, "In cell from 2nd to Bth"?—That is in Miss Howden's handwriting. 335. Where would Miss Howden get her information from?—l do not know. lam quite certain G J was not shut in the cell all that time.

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336. You think this entry is wrong? —I am sure it is wrong. 337. There is an entry against H M , " In cell from Bth to 16th " ?—That would be in cell and detention-yard. 338. There is an entry against the name of A M , " In cell from Ist to 16th "I —lt should be in cell and detention-yard. 339. Who checks these entries? —These are all in Miss Howden's handwriting, and were possibly passed without comment. Ido not think Miss Howden meant to make that mistake. I think it is just an innocent error. 340. When both cells are occupied, do you allow the doors to be unlocked? —We let one girl out at a time for exercise, or take one girl upstairs when the other is out. 341. Regulation 119 says, " Every inmate confined in a cell shall be taken for exercise outside the cell for two hours a day, and during confinement shall be regularly visited at least once in every two hours from 5.30 a.m. to 9.30 p.m."?— They are let out in the detention-yard, as I have explained. 342. Is that a compliance with that regulation?— Yes. 343. I would like to know what means they have for attracting attention at night supposing a girl is locked up?— She can rap. 344. Where is the nearest room ?—The first-class dormitory, and up till quite recently there was a bedroom downstairs. And the girls can hear upstairs. 345. Supposing they are sound asleep?—l have tested it with Mr. Pope, and proved it. 346. M- H told us she was placed in the cell on the 25th February for scorching an apron?— Yes; but that was not all. She was very impudent, both dumb and open. They often say things like that, but that does not make them true. 347. There is no entry in the register about scorching the apron. It is made to appear it was for impudence?— Yes; the apron was not badly scorched. I should like to say the girl was brought to me at the office in the early part of the day, and I talked to her, and told her to be reasonable and go on with her work, and she went down to the laundry determined to be impudent to Miss Dean, and she was. 348. A girl named C W was brought back to the Home : what was that for?— She had been stealing. 349. What had she been stealing?— Money. 350. Is it not a fact it was her own money —money put aside to pay her wages?— No. 351. Is that not so? —No; it was her mistress's money. 352. Did she ask you to purchase a light summer dress for her? —No. 353. Do you know how she spent the money she stole? —She bought herself a white petticoat and a pair of boots, two pairs of white lace gloves. 354. All articles of dress?— Yes. 355. When you went to bring her back, what did she say to you? —She said it was a sudden temptation, and I said that I considered her employer had no light to leave money on the dressingtable to tempt the girl, and I was sorry for her. She put 10s. back again in token of her contrition, and was very.sorry she had done it. 356. She did not swear at you? —She did not. 357. Did you punish her when you brought her back?— No. 358. Why not?— Because I considered the employer more to blame than the girl. 359. Did you apply- to the Minister for permission to cut the girl's hair?—l did. 360. Was the report you received from Matron Early about the girl A G a favourable report?-—Very. 361. I believe you made a promise to Mrs. Bean that you would send that report to Wellington without note or comment? —Possibly I did. Ido not remember. 362. Did you do so? —I think I waited for Mr. Pope to come down. 363. You knew this girl was able to get a good situation with Mrs. Bean?—l did not consider it a good situation. 364. Why did you form such an opinion about Mrs. Bean? Why did you think Mrs. Bean would be away from home so much that it would be detrimental to this girl's interests to be there? • —Most clergymen's wives are. 365. You knew nothing special about Mrs. Bean? —No. 366. That was merely soreness -fjn your part?—l judged from experience. I have a sister married to a clergyman, and I know. 367. How long had this girl been away from Te Oranga when Mrs. Bean tried to get her?— About a year. 368. I believe the Department referred the matter to you for a report?— Yes. 369. Did you report against it? —I did not wish the girl to leave the Samaritan Home until she was twenty-one. 370. The Commissioner.] "Why was it originally recommended she should be sent to the Samaritan Home? —There is a letter of mine with the recommendation. I thought the discipline of the Samaritan Home would be so much easier than the discipline of this Home. 371. Mr. Salter.] Is it a fact that you had any hand in having the " Black Maria " sent for this girl? —No. I sent for the girl, and Miss Early refused to let her come out, and I said, " Let the police bring her." I did not mind how the police brought her. 372. I think during the last fortnight the girl was here she behaved very well? —Yes; but she was very nervous and very unstrung, and it would not have taken much to make her as bad as ever she was. 373. Am I right in assuming you treated her better on the second occasion than when she was first with you?— No. I thought she was not well, and I told them to take good care of her, and to give her a cup of tea and some supper. t

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374. Your objection was not because you had any ill-feeling against Mrs. Beau for going behind your authority to the Minister? —Not a bit. 375. You did not resent it? —I thought it was rather nasty of Mrs. Bean, but Ido not know I resented it. 376. Do you remember the case of that girl L R ?—Yes. 377. How long was that girl here?— From the time the institution opened until she went to service. 378. Was she a fairly good girl?— She was a fairly good girl, but very slow, and I thought unable to earn her living. 379. Was the time she went to Mr. A the only chance she had had to go to service? —Yes. 380. Do you- remember when she.reached twenty-one?-—Yes. 381. I think you wrote to the Department to have her name taken off the books? —Yes. 382. Was that done?— Yes. 383. After she had been taken off the books, is it a fact that you had a license made out to Mr. A ?—I spoke to Mr. Pope, and said I did not think she was quite able to guide her own life. I said I should like her to have a trial at service, and that if she did well she could continue, and I would put her money in the savings-bank, and that if she did not do well I would bring her back to the Home. 384. Did you get any special permission from the Department to keep her after she was twenty-one?— Mr. Pope said it would not matter —that she would stay in the Home, and I could keep a supervision over her. 385. Do you know whether Mr. Pope has any right to say whether a girl should be kept after she is twenty-one? —If I could have managed it I would not have let her out of the Home. 386. The Commissioner.] You acted in what you believed to be the best interests of the girl? —Undoubtedly. 387. Mr. Salter.] What about her wages? —I still hold £2 Bs., which lam waiting to put in the bank for her. 388. Mr. A had to apply to you once, if not twice, for a receipt?—l forgot to send a receipt. 389. You did not send the receipt on the official form?—l could not, because she was over age. She was held for her own benefit, not for mine. 390. That was your opinion? —Yes; I still hold to that opinion. I am sorry she has been told she is twenty-one. I should like to have held her for a year. 391. But is not the girl entitled to know when she is twenty-one and when she is free?—l believe Miss Howden told her before she left the Home. 392. Why do you think Miss Howden told her?— Because it was reported to me by her sister that Miss Howden had told her before she left the Home. I spoke to Miss Howden about it, and Miss Howden said, "Do you think I would do such a thing?" I believed Miss Howden then, but in the light of subsequent events I believe Miss Howden did tell her. 393. The girl herself did not know-: she said her sister told her?— Miss Howden went up to the Home, and afterwards her sister wrote to her and told her she was twenty-one. 394. Are there any girls in the second class who have not been committed here for any particular offence? —Not that I know of. 395. What about J P and her sister?— They were transferred from Auckland. 396. What had been their offence?— Ungovernable temper, I think, in both instances. 397. Was not her offence simply that she was unfortunate, and had no one to look after her? —Nothing of the kind; she had brothers and sisters. 398. She was not sent here for having committed any crime, but because she was uncontrollable at home : is that not so?—I do not know. 399. Are you prepared to say that all the girls in the first class are better than those in the second class? In other words, have they earned their promotion to the first class?— Most of them have. Some of them are in there because they are young, and are more likely to be contaminated by the girls on the other side. 400. Is it not a fact that one girl, V S ,is taken occasionally to the receptionroom?—Yes. 401. Does that not point to the fact she should be in the second class?— Well, she is a very well-behaved girl, and I think she is jnore sinned against than sinning. 402. Did you tell Miss Harrison that Miss Howden had given the information to Mr. Fendall about the Home which caused him to write the letter to the newspaper?—l said it was probable. I could not say she had, because I did not know. 403. Why did you conclude Miss Howden had done that?— Well, taking all the things that had been going on at the Home together, it seemed probable. 404. I suppose you are satisfied now, after hearing Mr. Fendall's statement, that Miss Howden had nothing to do with it?— Yes. 405. With regard to these girls' statements taken before Mrs. Kaye, you said Miss Mills said to the girls, " Come up to my room " ?—That was what was reported to me. 406. Do you know whether the girls went with Miss Mills to her room on her invitation?— H said she went. 407. Did the others go too? —No. 408. Then, Miss Mills had something to do with her making the statement?—No; she made a voluntary statement to Miss Mills. 409. Did you tell Mr. Pope you believed Miss Howden was at the bottom of the whole trouble? —I may have done so. 410. Did you tell Miss Howden, when speaking to her about this business, that the girls were such liars they would swear your life away, and that you would be broad-minded and let the matter

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drop? —No, I did not. I said I would keep an open mind on the subject, and that the girls were liars. 411. You did not intend to let the matter drop?—No, I did not, most certainly. 412. You have admitted the girls are liars : then, why did you believe them on this occasion? —Because they were acting contrary to the things I have ever known them to do—they were acting against their own interests. I know they would swear your life away if they could get anything out of it, on occasions. 413. There has been something said about the money deducted, from the girls' mark-money for church offertory: what deductions are made? —2d. per month from the Protestants and Id. per month from the Catholics. 414. Is there any record made of the deductions? —The clerk should keep it. 415. Has there ever been any record? —Yes; I think we could trace it right from the very first, and find out exactly how much money should be in hand. 416. But if it is deducted for church purposes, why is it not applied for church purposes? Why is it kept in hand? —It is not necessary to put it in the plate for church purposes. There are many things in connection with the church that it is nice to give a little to. 4171 Is a proper account of that kept? —I think so. I have always instructed Miss Hunt and Miss Howden to keep an account. 418. I think you subscribed ss. to a presentation to Mr. Seaton when he went away? —I suppose so. Ido not remember. 419. Was that a personal gift?— No. 420. Is it a fact that this ss. was taken out of the church money?—l suppose it was. 421. You told Miss Howden to take it out?—l expect so. It was the girls' money, and : t was for the girls' benefit that Mr. Seaton came here and gave them lectures and a singing-class once a week, I thought it was a proper thing to do with their money. Mr. Seaton was not a personal friend of mine. 422. Is it a fact that you practise a very rigid economy in conducting the Home? —No, I do not. 423. One of the attendants —Miss McPherson—said the bread and dripping and bread and jam were rather scantily spread :do you agree with that?— No. 424. You can produce books showing the amount spent per month for groceries and meat and bread?— Yes. 425. Do you think the meat supplied for the Home is ample for the purpose?—We are all very well, and we all eat the same meat. 426. The inmates get as much as you think they ought to get?—l do. In addition to meat, we give them poultry and eggs, of which they all have their fair share. 427. Is it a fact that private letters have been written by you to Sir Edward Gibbes in connection with Home matters? —I may have written about two in connection with the institution. They might all be published for anything I have written. 428. The What is the object in marking them "Private and confidential"? —I do not know that I have written anything of a very confidential nature to the Department. 429. Nothing you have written has been with the idea of taking an unfair advantage?— No. 430. Mr. Do you remember saying to Miss Howden you always knew how to act, because Mr. Pope had told you to write to Sir Edward Gibbes and make your letter private and confidential? —I have no recollection of it. 431. Have you any understanding with the Department about writing confidential letters about matters? —No. 432. On this particular occasion you did not write a private and confidential letter on this subject?—lf I did, I do not mind the Department showing my letter. I do not remember any letter. 433. It would not be on the file if marked "Private and confidential"? —No doubt they would have it. 434. You have admitted you told Mrs. Bean about this girl being a bad character ? —I did not. 435. You said she was of immoral tendencies?— That was giving her true character. 436. How did you know this girl was of immoral tendencies ?—Her sister told me, and said she was very glad A was in the Home. 437. And you believed it?—l She came to me and said she was thankful to think she was in the Home. 438. Is it your practice when a girl is going to service to tell her mistress all that is bad about the girl?— Certainly not. I did not want that girl to go to service, and I did not think Mrs. Bean would make any use of the information I gave her. I thought she would have respected my confidence, but she appears not to have done so. 439. So far as the ss. given to the postman is concerned, your minute on the voucher, when it was questioned by the Audit Department, is not true?—l said to Miss Howden, " Distribute it." I did not give her any particular thing to put down. 440. The Commissioner.] You were asked to account for the item, "Dinners, 105.," and you said you had to go to town to meet several service girls, and had to get your dinner. Either that is true or false. It was to cover up that ss. to the postman that that explanation was made? —No, it was not to cover anything. 441. Why did you deceive the Department? It was not a correct explanation?—l had no intention to deceive the Department. All I intended to do was to save the vouchers coming up and down from Wellington to know about this and that and the other. 442. It was to put a stop to the irritation of getting the vouchers backwards and forwards that the explanation was made?— Yes.

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443. And so you instructed the clerk to say something which was not true? —Yes, I told her to distribute it. 444. But that was not correct?—No, it was not. 445. Mr. Salter.] You admitted E S came back looking very thin? —Yes. 446. Yet within two days of her coming back you gave her this strapping? —Thinness is not illness. 447. You said she looked as though she had been starved? —Yes, but she said she had not been, and I ordered her on full diet on that account. 448. Did she sleep on the floor of the cell?— She had a mattress on the floor of the cell. 449. You were not very clear in regard to the ear-boxing. There has been a lot of evidence to show that you indulged in this practice. Do you say that that evidence is not correct?—l do on two occasions quite recently in which I was represented as boxing girls' ears. I distinctly remember never touching their ears. The girls seem to think you are boxing their ears if you touch them anywhere. 450. You admit hitting them on the head? —Yes. 451. When Miss Howden was ill, and the doctor said she had to have attention, you say you gave her diet which she refused : what did you give her ?—I told Miss Simpson to put her on milk diet and light puddings. She insisted upon having a chop, and it was given to her. She said she felt as though she must have it. When the doctor came he said it was all wrong. 452. The night she was ill, and required somebody to look after her, I believe you and Miss Hunt went to the theatre? —I should like to explain that. Some time previous an arrangement was made that I should go to a certain play—" Tannhauser " —because if I missed it then I should not see it again for a very long time. During that day we seemed to be exceptionally busy, and it required a very great effort to go at all, and I should have disappointed a good many people if I had not gone. So I told Miss Mills to take charge of Miss Howden until the night nurse came. When I came back from the theatre I went to see Miss Howden. 453. You say that after she recovered and came back you noticed a good deal of unrest amongst the girls ?—Yes. 454. How did they show this?—By impudence to the staff. I really thought I would have to turn the whole of the first into the second class. 455. Has that never happened before? —Nothing like that. They have all settled down, and they could not be better girls than they are now. 456. Did Miss Howden refuse to resign until her case had been heard? Was that not her ground of refusal? —No, she never mentioned any case. She said she would not until she had time to think it over. 457. Then her dismissal was effected without giving her any opportunity to make an explanation? —Mr. Pope was here on the 30th. Why did she not speak to him? 458. It is a fact that her side of the story has never been heard by the Department?— Yes, she wrote to the Department. 459. Explaining the whole matter? —I do not know what she explained. 460. Some of the attendants say they work for thirteen hours a day: is that so?— Yes. 461. Do you not think those hours are rather long?— That is for the Department to decide. Many times during the day they have short times off. 462. Do you consider half an hour for a meal is sufficient? —I think so. 463. The dressmaker told us she makes blouses and other things for you? —She made one. 464. Only that one?— She may have done other work. 465. Is she supjiosed to do that? —If necessary. As I give all my dresses and clothing into the institution before they are half worn out, it does not seem unreasonable she should turn up a blouse for me. 466. In regard to the discount of 10 per cent,, supposing there should be a balance in favour of the girls, how would you distribute that amongst them? —I remember at one time when there was a balance in their favour I used to buy them a bag of lollies, but lately there has never been a balance. 467. The Commissioner.] What is your practice in the matter of inflicting punishment for not knowing lessons?—lt does not often happen. 468. It has rather been made a point of. I know one instance where a girl was put in the cell for not knowing her catechism will not learn. 469. There is a line to be drawn between " will not " and " cannot," I only want to know how you deal with these cases?—We are very lenient with them when they first come in, and put a girl on to help them, and give them plenty of time; but they prefer playing to doing this. Then when they come to say their lessons to me on Sunday for a long time they never know them. Then I say, " Well, girls, if you do not say these lessons before Wednesday you will have to take punishment." They simply took no trouble, and would not learn. 470. I understand you positively- assert there was no connection between the illness of the S girl and the thrashing she got from you —that there was nothing in her physical condition to show she was unfit to be strapped ?—No. 471. You are quite clear about that? —Yes. 472. I want you to tell me something about the history of these receptacles you use for stores in the pantry? —I bought more than I wanted. They were new enamel ware, and we wanted something to put jam in, and I used them. 473. Did it not strike you as being rather out of place—that you were placing the people in connection with the institution on a rather low- standard by using such articles as these?— They use them in the asylum in the same way, and in many institutions. I should say, " Evil be to him who evil thinks."

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474. Did any one remonstrate with you for using them? —No. 475. It is not true you ever said they were quite as good as the girls had at home? —I never did. 476. How long has the school been established under a certificated teacher? —About four years. 477. What obtained before that? —Miss Macintosh had six backward girls for two hours every afternoon, and I took the girls two evenings a week—one evening for composition and one for letter-writing. 478. Has the result of the new system been advantageous to the institution? —Yes; 479. A distinct advance? —Yes. 480. Can you suggest any direction in which it might be still further improved?—l think, it would be better if the girls were taught as suggested in my letter. 481. You wish to say nothing further in regard to the hours, or anything of that sort?— No. 482. Do you attach any importance to the statement made by Miss Harrison that some of the girls are too tired to properly do justice to their lessons? —I do not; they are not at all tired. 483. You do not think it is a fact? —I do not. The girls are as lively as possible. 484. Was the school started upon your recommendation upon these present lines?—No, I had not much to do with it. I may say, though, I repeatedly recommended the appointment of a teacher. 485. How is the catering done for the supply of stores for the Home? —By contract. 486. Who lets the contract? —The Government. 487. Without reference to you?— Yes. 488. And you simply send for such stores as you require?— Yes. 489. Do you always have your meals with the staff? —Yes. I may sometimes have my tea alone. We have the same meat and vegetables as the girls. We may have a different pudding. 490. It has been suggested that there is too much institution even at meals —that is to say, that the girls and their failings are discussed, and all that sort of thing. Have you anything to say about that ?—I think it would be better if they were not talked about so much, but the staff say that is the only time they are all together with me, and can discuss matters. 491. Surely you give the staff opportunities of discussing with you matters affecting the girls? —Yes. 492. Could you not put a stop to that discussion at meals?—lf anybody dislikes it, I could. 493. If you think it is not desirable, would not a hint from you stop it?—l do not mind if the staff do not mind. 494. You see it has come out now?— Not from my present staff. 495. As a matter of fact, we know it is done, and you yourself think it is done too much?— I think it might be. 496. You keep in touch with these girls, as I can see from the letters you gave me the opportunity to read ?—Yes. 497. Do you still, where circumstances appear to warrant it, interfere absolutely with the girls—for instance, take one letter, where the girl told you she felt her temptation so great that she must revert to her old course? What would you do in a case of that sort?—l am thinking of getting her back again. I cured her before, and I suppose I could cure her again. 498. That appears to you a very proper thing to do? —Yes, especially when the girl asks for help. 499. It would be your practice to take prompt steps?— Yes. 500. In regard to classification, and apart altogether from what the Department proposes to do, what is it that is urgently needed in the matter of classification? —To separate the bad girls from the girls who are improving. 501. Does that mean you want a separate class for what you would term the almost incorrigibles?—Yes, until they improve; and then I think there should be a class for probationers. 502. Would you be in favour of having a class in which every girl should be put when she first comes into the institution ?—Yes. 503. You would deal with them as a separate and distinct class?— Yes. 504. It did not seem to me that Mr. Recce's suggestion entirely met the matter—that is, having a third class, and dumping them all into it?—Oh, no; you would contaminate some of the girls who might not be very bad. >" 505. The greater inducements you can offer to the girls by evolution, or whatever you like to term it, the greater possibilities there are of the girls being satisfied with their chance to get forward?— That is so. 506. If you had these facilities it might do away with the necessity for corporal punishment altogether? —I think the country is best prepared for peace that is best prepared for war. If they knew there was to be no corporal punishment they might presume on their knowledge. 507. You think corporal punishment is to be avoided, and only inflicted when absolutely essential? Yes. It might be provided that before corporal punishment is inflicted it should be necessary to apply for the sanction of the Minister. 508. Do you think corporal punishment should be inflicted upon any young woman without medical supervision, because there are certain periods when it might be very harmful to them. Have you considered that aspect of the matter ?—No; but there have never been any detrimental effects yet. 509. Do you find the Department quite willing to meet you in any reasonable way?— Yes. 510. Will the proposed new wing meet all your requirements? —I think so. 511. Is there anything else you wish to lay before the Commission? —No.

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Saturday, 21st March, 1908. Thomas Ingram Smail examined on oath. 1. Mr. Russell.] I think you are City Missioner and Lay Evangelist?— Yes. 2. I think for many years past you have been attending Te Oranga Home?— Yes, from the opening of the Home. 3. Are you there very often?— Yes. I used to go twice a week —on Wednesdays and Sundays —but my other duties took up too much time, so Mrs. Kaye takes the Wednesday class. 4. Have you had a good opportunity of watching the Home and all the details of its management?— The very best. 5. Broadly, what is your opinion in regard to the general management and administration of the Home? —It is one of the very best managed places I ever heard of. 6. And, so far as the Department is concerned, do you consider the Home is doing good work for the girls?—l do. 7. Have you noticed any appreciable change in the manner of the girls?—ln many cases. 8. And in all cases does it tend to have a refining and bettering influence on the girls there? —I think, as carried out, the Home would better a girl if she was prepared to be bettered. 9. And if they are not prepared to be bettered it gives them a chance anyhow?— Yes. 10. Will you tell me if, in your opinion, the Matron looks after the girls as well as a mother could look after them?—l think so. 11. What is your opinion as to the feeling between the Matron and the girls?— Those who have spoken to me about her have always spoken of her as being their best friend. I may explain I have had-opportunities of hearing them saying that when the Matron or anybody else has been out of reach! After service on Sunday nights the service girls return to town with me in the tram. Certain of the girls have been more outspoken than others, but in all the experience I have had of the girls, both in the trams and in town at entertainments with me, or when I have been at their entertainments at the Home, there has not been a girl who has not spoken to me in terms of the highest admiration of the Matron, and who has not looked upon her as her best friend. 12. You think the girls have affection for the Matron? —I am sure of it. 13. Have you had an opportunity at any time of noticing the Matron's treatment of the girls? —Yes. 14. And from what you have seen, what would you say?—ln a kindly motherly way, putting before them their faults, and encouraging them to do better. 15. Do the girls generally appear to be happy at the Home? —Quite. 16. Have you seen them at their play and entertainments?— Yes; I have played with them. 17. You find them full of fun and life? —Yes. On what is called the Matron's birthdays, when two annual parties are given, I sit amongst the second-class girls, away from the Matron and the other visitors, and I have seen them, when the Matron came into the room, get up a little applause; and when any one has said a kindly remark about the Matron it has always been applauded to the echo. 18. Have you found as time goes on that the girls speak in a better way, and lose their coarseness?— You would not know them as the same girls in some instances; they become much more refined. 19. Taking the building as it is now, could the Matron or the Department do anything more to promote the welfare and well-being of the children ?—No; I think they are as well classified as possible at the present time. 20. Have you ever had any complaints from the children about the food, or any hardships of any kind?— Never. 21. Have you seen them at work at their outdoor tasks?—l have not seen them at work, but I know the work they do. 22. Do you consider it beyond their strength?—l do not. It is most healthy. They must have physical work or you could not hold them. 23. Do you remember the girl named A G ?—I do. 24. You have heard, no doubt, there was a difference between the Matron of the Samaritan Home, practically backed up by a lady, on the one hand, and the Matron of this Home on the other, for the possession of this girl?— When that girl was dealt with in the Court she was given to me to take to the Samaritan Home until arrangements were made for her to enter Te Oranga Home. I saw her at the Samaritan regularly twice a week. Then I remember when she was sent to Te Oranga Home. Then I remember when she was sent to the Mental Hospital, where I saw her regularly. I remember her when she came back to the Samaritan Home, and then I saw the whole of this difference in connection with her going to Mrs. Bean's house. I was opposed to it from the commencement, although I was asked by the Samaritan Home authorities if I could assist them. I was opposed to her going from the way the girl appeared to my individual self. She told me there exactly what she told the Matron in Te Oranga Horne —that the girls were all against her— that she had no pleasure upstairs. Then she was continually telling me she was sick of life—that life was nothing to her. On one occasion she asked me if I could tell her why she was kept there, and I told her she had given her own answer, and that I could not be a party to putting out a girl who was sick of her life. The Home authorities spoke to me about it on more than one occasion, and I said I could not recommend the girl should go out, because she did not appear to me to be fit to go out. In addition to that, she used to get into very dour and sulky states. 25. Apart from your own intimate knowledge of the girl, if you knew Miss Early on the one hand and Mrs. Branting on the other, whose opinion would you rather take as to the desirability of letting out girls?— Mrs. Branting's. 26. Why?—l think Mrs. Branting has had much more experience, and I think Mrs. Branting carries responsibility more as it should be carried than Miss Early does.

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27. You consider Mrs. Branting was acting in the best interests of the girl when she wished to have her back at Te Oranga for a further period?—l think so. I thought she was right, because I did not think the girl was fit to go to service if she could not stand for a short time the discipline of Te Oranga Home. 28. Is there anything in the discipline that is severe?— Nothing for the class of girls that you have. 29. Do you consider the Home is doing good work for the girls so far as you can see?— Most undoubtedly. I am not saying this now without having said it before. I have stated publicly before that the Dominion was fortunate in having two such managers as Mrs. Branting and Mr. Archey. 30. So far as you can see, the Home and grounds are well equipped by the Department for the children? —Yes; I have seen them on their play-nights, and there has been no fear. When I see them they are just as much at home with the Matron as I was with my mother. 31. Dr. Symes made the suggestion that the girls thought themselves outcasts: is there anyfeeling of that kind?—l have never heard of it, nor has it been expressed to me. I would like to say, in reference to some of the girls who have been examined, that E S told me she could barely expect such kind treatment from the Matron as she received after what she had done, and that she would always look upon the Matron as her friend. H M complained to me because she thought the Matron might let her come up both on Sundays and Wednesdays. She said she never felt so comfortable as when she came to see the Matron. Z MeG , of all the girls who have spoken to me, has paid more compliments and been more grateful in connection with the Matron than any one else. She would come down in the tram with me, and all the way she would be singing the praises of the Matron, and would always effusively kiss the Matron on arrival at the Home. 32. Has any girl on any occasion spoken to you except in good terms of the Matron? —Never. 33. I now want you to give us your opinion on the question of punishment. In the first place, supposing when a girl's time is approaching to a close she is more difficult to deal with, would you consider it a proper thing for the Magistrate, upon application made and proof such as he would require, to keep that girl for an indeterminate period in the Home?— Decidedly. That is not a new idea. I put that before the Minister of Education last year. It was brought up at the Conference. 34. Will you tell us your ideas in regard to corporal punishment?—l believe in it for certain girls. 35. But what about girls, say, over eighteen years of age?—l would not do away with corporal punishment. I think it would be a dangerous thing for these girls to know it was done away with ; but I would put any restrictions on the Matron that might be thought necessary —that it should only be inflicted under the authority of the doctor or in the doctor's presence. I know cases where the punishment has done good; and I remember a very serious disturbance in the female gaol at Lyttelton that would have been stopped instantly had the Matron possessed authority to administer corporal punishment to the offender. I know Mrs. Branting has told me that punishing the girls puts her about very much. I once saw Mrs. Branting after doing it, and I have not the slightest doubt she felt it more than the girl. 36. Can you suggest something which might be an equivalent and as efficacious as that? Supposing we get another wing in which to put refractory girls, could we then, in your opinion, dispense with corporal punishment?—l should not obliterate it from the punishments of the Home until I saw the working of the new building. 37. Would you say that no punishment of that nature should be inflicted until the case came before the Magistrate?—l am quite agreeable to that. 38. The Commissioner.] You come into contact with the girls at the time of their committal, and you are able to judge the demeanour of these girls and compare it at a subsequent period with their appearance and behaviour? —Yes. 39. Have you found the difference marked?— Yes. 40. You find the discipline and treatment at Te Oranga has the humanising effect that is desired? —Yes. 41. Of course, you know the criminal classes and prostitutes about Christchurch?—Yes. 42. Have you come in contact at any time with girls who have been at Te Oranga, but who have gone back ?—I have known girls I have been doubtful about. I could not say the girl was on the town, but I had an idea things were not right. 43. What proportion of them? —Very small indeed. 44. And these are girls who probably under any circumstances would relapse?— Yes. 45. That is to say, they are sexual degenerates?— Yes. 46. You agree, then, that it is desirable, in the interests of the State, that if a girl has shown herself to be impervious to reformative treatment at Te Oranga she should not be turned loose on the community at twenty-one?— Certainly. 47. How would you. safeguard that?—l should have the law so made that she should again be brought before the Magistrate and redealt with. It would be the same as a Judge giving an indeterminate sentence, so that her discharge would ultimately depend on her conduct after that further committal. 48. Naturally, the fact of that hanging over her head would have a beneficial effect?—A very good effect. 49. What about the other forms of punishment?—l would continue to cut the hair. There is nothing that a girl can use so well to disguise herself as her hair. The effect of the hair-cutting has been to keep them from running away. It has the same effect as the punishment dress. In my opinion, too, when a girl has her hair cut off she is a bit of a hero amongst the other girls, and has a kindly time from them.

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50. Will you be good enough now to deal as widely and fully as possible with the question of classification as an improvement upon the existing system, and with a view specially to reducing the necessity for corporal punishment? —The first thing in classification in a reformatory is a reception ward, where every girl, good, bad, or indifferent, diseased or clean, goes in for a certain time. The very best attendant that can be got —a woman judged for tactfulness, kindly ways, and real solid interest in the work of reforming girls—should be appointed to that ward under the Matron. This is to me the whole foundation of success. It should not be a little place, because a little place would not do. These diseased girls should be put into the ward here until they are cured of their disease, and before that, seeing they would have to show a course of good behaviour, this reception ward would have to be a place of some magnitude. A meeting of rescue-workers held in the Guildhall, London, brought forward the great good done in remand homes. We would not need separate homes, but one well-equipped home where the girls would be classified. The Matron and her attendant would say to a girl, "We know all your bad qualities; we want to see some of your good qualities ;we want to help you to be a good girl." When girls come into a strange home they are very amenable to that treatment if given in the proper way. You have all sorts of girls, and their departure from the reception ward should not be hurried. I would keep them three months, to find out something about them before I shifted them to another place. I would have a sleeping-room for the diseased girls, and keep their trouble a perfect secret. If would be a constant work, but it would be a splendid work for some woman really devoted to helping a girl to do what is right. Until that is done classification is quite haphazard. I would commence the reformation by extending the good points of a girl, because every one I extended would be another kick down for the bad points. Then I should have three classes after that. I think you will see that will simplify matters very much, because a girl going in need not be shifted in a month or six weeks to the third, or second, or first; in fact, before I put any girl into the third or lowest class, I should feel myself justified in giving her the benefit of the doubt by putting her in the second class, and if she would still misbehave herself, I would allow her to work into the lowest. The great thing of all is encouragement. I think this, to a great extent, would do away with the need of corporal punishment. When a girl comes in expecting to come to everything that is black and repellent, and finds kindly ladies taking an interest in her, and being to her what she never had before —a real true sympathetic friend—she is very amenable to good influences. The rest is a simple matter ; but a large issue is involved in the question of the adult-juvenile criminal. The Press of the 11th February had an article on the subject, and the suggestions there put forward, in my opinion, are those that should be adopted in this Dominion. W 7 e want to keep our young people out of the gaols altogether, and to do that we must have a proper sized reformatory. The Government want to face the matter in a whole-hearted way, because the Government can have no better asset than a good reformatory system that keeps an influx from the gaols. I have seen plans of the proposed new buildings, but I have seen nothing of this reception ward, and, in my opinion, if the Government is only going to spend a certain amount of money, it would be far better to spend it on a receiving ward than on a punishment ward. In regard to the second class in connection with the present Te Oranga Home, I have seen girls that I thought would not be very long in getting shifted up, and I have seen these girls moved up. I think the Matron has shown discernment and good judgment in gauging the fitness of the girls for classification. But there are some girls there who need the very strictest of treatment. The present system of classification at the Home seems a very admirable one, and I think it has been worked admirably ; but I would like to emphasize that the whole essence of classification in a reformatory is a commencement at the new end. I should like, in conclusion, to say a word for the staff. I see them at the Home, and I take tea with them every Sunday night, and I think the Home is very fortunate in having such a staff. I think they are good, honourable, straightforward women, and Ido not believe salary is the whole thing they are working for. I believe they take a great interest in their work, and have a higher motive in doing so than merely the salary they get for it, Monday, 23rd March, 1908. Ada Harrison further examined. 1. Mr. Salter.] Do you remember a conversation that took place some time ago with Mr. Walker in reference to Miss Howden's salary, and the deduction of the time of her illness from her holidays? —I do not remember anything being said about her salary. 2. Miss Howden said Mrs. Branting had said that the fortnight she was ill was to be deducted from her holidays at the end of the year, and that she asked Mr. Walker about it in your presence. Do you remember this? —Yes. 3. Do you remember how the conversation arose? —Mr. Walker and I went round to the porch to ask the Matron for a holiday for the girls after the examination. The Matron was not there, and Miss Howden came to the door. There was some talking and laughing about giving the girls the holiday, and then Miss Howden said, " I do not think it is very kind of you, Mr. Walker, to want my illness taken off my holidays at the end of the year." Mr. Walker said he had never heard of it before, and that it did not come within his work, or words to that effect, There was nothing said about salary. Elizabeth Howden further examined. 1. Mr. With regard to the punishment register, I want you to tell the Commissioner what instructions you received in regard to entering punishments, and what was the practice all the time you were here? —Miss Hunt helped to initiate me into the work. The Matron said I must be particular about the punishments, and that I had to always take them out of the small

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book and put them on a rough sheet, and take them into her for her approval. This I always did. On some occasions they have been altered. Sometimes something more has been added to the offence, although I cannot quite remember now what it was. I remember, though, the case of J L , and I know that after she was two days in the cell, and not the detention-yard, the punishment was altered to read " In cell and detention-yard," and the offences were increased. It was just for " Insubordination," but something else was put on to it —I do not quite remember what. 2. Did Mrs. Branting actually make the alterations herself?—No; she never made any alteration. She simply instructed me. I always wrote up the punishments, but I never wrote them into the book without first referring them to her. I sometimes altered them then by her instructions. She said I could write them up, but that I was to be thoroughly conversant with the regulations, and was never on any account to enter a punishment that exceeded the regulations. 3. You are perfectly clear that Mrs. Branting did on certain occasions make alterations by increasing the offences?— Yes. 4. Is this the memorandum-book from which you prepared the rough sheets? —Yes. [Book produced and claimed by Miss Hunt as her private property.] 5. The Commissioner.] Where did this book come from?—lt is the book I entered the punishments in. 6. How do you come to be in possession of it to-day?—l took it. 7. Why?—To protect myself. I knew it was not my book, but I took it purposely. I felt I had not been dealt with justly, and that it was only my word against somebody else's, and so I took this book to bear out my statements. It is the book in which the punishments were entered, and I used it for that purpose. 8. This is the rough book from which the official punishments are entered up?— Yes. There is nothing private in that book. It all relates to the institution. 9. Why did you take it?—l simply took it to protect myself. 10. At what period did you anticipate you would have to protect yourself?—l knew I had been unjustly dealt with, and I knew the Matron did not always speak the truth about things, and I took it. I felt uncomfortable about it, and I took it to a member of Parliament and told him what I had done, and he gave me permission to hold it. Ellen Maria Hunt further examined. 1. The Commissioner.] I understand that you swear distinctly that this book produced by Miss Howden is your private property?— Yes. Susannah Isherwood examined on oath. 1. The Commissioner.] Where do you live?—At Burwood. 2. I suppose you have been acquainted with this Home for a long time? —I have been acquainted with it for six or seven years. I have visited it frequently, although not within the last six months. I must say I have always found Mrs. Branting most sympathetic and kind in talking to the girls. She used to tell me about their little ailments, and often asked me if I knew of good places to which they might be sent to service. I have been inside and outside when the girls have been working in the paddock. I have seen them haymaking, and they were always laughing and joking as they worked. I must say that the more I saw of the Home the more I admired the Matron. 3. You have volunteered this evidence?— Yes. Clara Bone examined on oath. 1. The Commissioner.] Where do you live?—l live on the property adjoining this Home I have been here longer than the Home, so I have been acquainted with'the Home since it started J have a horse and trap, and go to town frequently, and I often carry parcels to and from the Home, and often give the girls a lift in and out from service. The girls always talk to me and never on any occasion have they complained about the Home. I sometimes fetch girls from service and they often ask me which side of the Home they are going to, and have said they would not mind going back to the second division if there were not so many bad girls there The girls them selves have remarked to me that if there was more classification it would be better for them Then the girls on the first-class side have spoken to me as to what they could do that would best please the Matron. They said they would do all they could for the Matron, because she was so kind to them. I see all the work they do outside, and Ido not think any of it has been too hard for them Ihey seem to have great fun at felling trees, and there is always a scramble as to who shall climb the tree I have never seen the attendants pushing them to do work. In fact, they seem to me to do much as they like. 2. Have you seen the girls improving from time to time?— Yes, and the girls have told me \*\ 7t im P rov f d ' TT one told m e she was as big a liar as there was in Christchurch, but that since sne had been at the Home she had improved, and she thanked Mrs. Branting for it. Roland Henry Pope examined on oath. 1 Mr. Russell.] I think you have been for many years in the service of the Education Department I —Yes, I am just completing my twenty-fifth year. 2. May I take it that the particular work you look after is the industrial schools?—l am in charge of the branch of the Department that deals with industrial schools, deaf-and-dumb and mentally backward children, and also infant-life protection. 3. The whole of your time is practically taken up in looking after children in one form and another ?—Yes; children under the care of the State.

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4. You are constantly paying visits to these different homes throughout the country?— Yes, as frequently as I can. 5. Ever since this Home started you have been here in the performance of your duties? —Yes; many times. 6. I think the Department takes a very great interest in this question of the reformation and care of children generally ?—The Department regards it as one of the most important branches of its work. I have repeatedly heard the senior officers of the Department say that. 7. Is the Department niggardly in the matter of funds in regard to these homes, or does it give all that is required?—l have jotted down one or two figures. Since 1900 and the present reclassification of industrial schools we have spent on the industrial schools and the school for deafmutes, in capital expenditure and buildings and properties, over £54,000, and the Department is now committed to works that it must carry out in the very near future which will amount to another £25,000, or probably nearer £30,000. We spend annually on these institutions something like £40,000. 8. How much does this Home cost to maintain annually?— Something under £2,000. That, of course, is the net expenditure. 9. So far as you can see, apart from the question of buildings and classification, is this Home well supplied with everything that could possibly be wanted for the care and comfort of these children ? —I really think so, having regard to the fact that we must study the taxpayers' pocket. 10. Is there anything you can think of that, by the further expenditure of money, of course, on proper consistent lines, would add to the well-being of "the children? —It is a somewhat difficult matter. You have to remember that if you spend too much on these institutions you may probably to some extent undo the work that you have in hand, because you must bear in mind we are trying to fit these girls to take up a position in the world, and if we bring them up on lines superior to what they will be likely to meet with in their ordinary walks of life outside, we may do more harm than good. 11. The Commissioner.] That does not cover the ground. Clearly, every girl you reform through the machinery prepared by the Department is a clear gain to the State, and every girl you do not reform is a clear loss and expense to the State, and therefore the interests of the taxpayers should scarcely be considered. Mr. Russell's question is more in this direction : Can you suggest any further method—and here is an excellent opportunity to do so—that would help forward the work of reformation at Te Oranga ?—Manifestly, we need more buildings. 12. Mr. Russell.] I mean, altogether apart from buildings, because they, we understand, are practically approved. I want to know whether you can suggest any further expenditure of money under present circumstances by which the work of reformation would be made quicker and better. First, do you consider all their physical wants are provided for? —Yes, I think so. 13. The food is plain and good?— Yes; the Matron has absolutely no interest whatever in providing anything but the best. The contract conditions are that the best shall be supplied. 14. You are satisfied that, so far as the quantity and quality of the food are concerned, they are all that the children could want or should want"?—l have very frequently seen the food here, and I have on more than one occasion eaten some of it, and it has always struck me as being very much of the same quality of food as one would get outside. 15. Taking the rank of life from which these people come, I suppose you consider the conditions here are at least as good as those in the majority of their own homes? Well, the food would,! think, be plainer, but it would be more sensible food. I think it is quite likely some of these girls would get more luxuries outside, and probably less of the necessary food. 16. But the Department does not think that is necessary so long as they get wholesome food? —I think the dietary scale of these institutions is such as would make healthy young women. 17. Does the scale provide for a girl who may be delicate or may want something better in the way of food? Is there any elasticity in the regulations?— The Department practically supplies anything that the Medical Officer or the manager suggests for the physical benefit of an inmate. 18. So, if a delicate child was not getting what was wanted it"would be because the Medical Officer or Matron had not applied for it?—l may say we have paid as much as £1 per week for board outside the institution, so as to give a girl a suitable chance. 19. You are at this Home pretty often? —Yes. 20. And not only have a general knowledge, but an exact knowledge of what goes on here? —Yes. . 21. And does your Department, in addition to taking a general interest in the children, take an individual interest in the case of each child?— The Department takes an individual interest, I think the Commissioner has had an opportunity of seeing the way we do things, and 1 feel the Commissioner, from his knowledge, will give us credit for trying to' do our best. " The system here is exactly the same as at Burnham. 22. You keep an account of each child, and watch its progress?— Yes. 23. You have been visiting this Home for eight years and a half, and the Matron has been in charge of it the whole of that time?— Yes. 24. Have you ever, on any occasion, had to complain or object to anything she has done or to her administration or treatment of the children?—l think that, without exception, I have always felt that the Matron's actions have been prompted by a strong desire for the very best interests of the inmates in the Home. 25. Are you of opinion that she has a personal interest in each child, and that her great endeavour is to get them on?—I am absolutely certain about that. 26. So far as you can see, does the Matron love the work, and is she a woman whose desire is not so much to earn a salary as to assist in the reformation of these girls?—l would say that Mrs. Branting is absolutely wrapt up in her work.

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f?. Ito you, as representing the Department, approve of her methods of dealing with the cases here generally ?—When I first began to come to Te Oranga Home I had an idea that the Matron was perhaps a little bit on the hard side in her treatment of the girls. I have absolutely changed that opinion. She has, I think, a thoroughly good manner with her. In an institution of this sort you must have a woman who is prepared to assert herself, otherwise the girls would simply ride over her. 28. Does she combine kindness with firmness, so far as you have seen?— There is no doubt about that. 29. Are the girls as a whole fond of her, so far as you can see?—l should say so, decidedly. Their free manner with her leads me to think they certainly are; and it is the manner of the inmates to the managers and other members of the staff that we mostly go by in forming an opinion as to the relations between the officers and children. 30. In addition to the qualities you are giving the Matron credit for, have you found that she has ability as well? —Yes; I should say Mrs. Branting is distinctly an able woman, and a woman exceptionally well qualified for this position. And it is a position that I regard as the most difficult of all the positions under the Industrial Schools Acts. 31. With regard to the treatment of the children generally, do you think they are overworked at this wood-chopping?— No. lam quite sure there is nothing in that. I agree with those witnesses who say that the girls regard the thing more as a pastime than as a labour. 32. You have seen the letters in the papers saying the girls are doing men's work? —That is absurd. 33. You have had that under your own supervision for many years?— Yes. I have seen them frequently at work here, and girls of whom perhaps I had a more thorough knowledge than others, and who knew me, have made jocular remarks about their work. 35. If you, as representing the Department, had seen at any time that the girls were doing improper tasks, or tasks too difficult for them, would you have stopped them?— Most certainly. 36. Have your remarks the same application to the question of the lupins? —I have never seen the girls working in the lupins, because I was not here between October and December, when the girls were working there. 37. Have the girls an opportunity of making complaints to you?—Oh, yes; the girls have made complaints to me. In fact, it is one of the battle-cries here, " I will tell Mr. Pope." When the girls are brought before me they generally run away giggling and laughing. In one instance I insisted on a girl coming up and telling me about her grievance, but she laughed and said it was all over, and she had nothing to say. 38. Has any girl at any time made a serious complaint to you about Mrs. Branting or any attendant ?—Never. 39. From what you can see, do the members of the staff treat the girls, when the Matron is not present, improperly in any way?—l have never seen anything that would lead me to bring the matter under the notice of the Matron; in fact, I should say from my visits that there is a very good feeling between the staff and the girls. 40. And equally between the Matron and the staff? —I think so. 41. There was one little episode in regard to Miss Howden. Some time ago some complaint was made about Miss Howden, and some letters were sent to the Department?— Yes. 42. Did the Department deal with that matter itself? —The position is this: I came to Te Oranga Home on the last day of the year. Mrs. Branting, in the course of a talk about institution matters, brought out two or three sheets of paper, and said to me, " Mr. Pope, I do not know how to deal with this matter. I would be very pleased if you would look it over and give me your advice." The sheets that she produced were those statements made by the girls B and B against Miss Howden, and contained Miss Howden's denial. I read them over, and my first impulse was to say to Mrs. Branting, "Why do you not exercise your powers and terminate Miss Howden's engagement?" On thinking it over, I said to her, "Seeing there has been so much public agitation against Te Oranga Home your best plan will be to send these statements to Wellington with a covering memorandum." The statements were sent to Wellington, and at the same time a letter was forwarded by the Matron from. Miss Howden to the Department complaining about her position at Te Oranga Home, and alleging that she was made to do work here that she had not been engaged to do. In the course of conversation with me, Mrs. Branting told me that these statements were made under such circumstances as to make her entirely lose confidence in Miss Howden. She told me, as, of course, I knew, that it was absolutely impossible to keep a member of the staff at the Home in whom she had not confidence. When these reached Wellington the Secretary for Education was absent in the North. I acknowledged both memoranda to the Matron, and told her they would receive consideration. Sir Edward Gibbes's return to Wellington was delayed, and then I, regarding the matter as a very serious one, put the letters before the Minister myself. My recommendation was this : that as Mrs. Branting had quite lost confidence in Miss Howden, and Miss Howden was so dissatisfied with her position at the Home, and in view of the other corroborative statements Mrs. Branting made to me, the best thing to do was to ask Miss Howden to resign her position, we paying her a month's salary. The Minister approved that recommendation. Mrs. Branting shortly afterwards reported to the Department that Miss Howden did not see her way to resign. Then the only course open to the Department was to dispense with Miss Howden's services. We did so, offering her a month's salary, which she declined to accept. 43. What are the usual terms on which you engage attendants? What notice are they to receive? —A month's notice. 44. So in giving her a month's notice you simply did what you would have done to any other attendant ?—Yes. 45. Miss Howden says she was to get £60 in eight weeks' time. Have you the letter that was sent up to the Department?— This is it: "Te Oranga Home, Christchurch, 4th January, 1908.—

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To Sir E. 0. Gibbes, Secretary, Education Department, Wellington. —Dear Sir, —It is with much reluctance I address you upon this matter, but having applied to the Matron without success for a modification of my duties, I feel that I must appeal to you. The facts briefly are that last July I was offered and accepted the position of clerk in the above institution, at a remuneration of £52 per year for the first six months, with an increase of £8 per year at the end of that period. At the time of being engaged the Matron asked if I would be willing to do a little relieving occasionally. This I readily agreed to, and concluded it would be during my office-hours, but within a very short time I had full attendant's work, morning and night, in addition to my office-work. Even on my return last October from two weeks in a private hospital, from pneumonia, I had to get up at 6.30 and do attendant's work, although requested to be relieved. My working-hours are from 6.30 a.m. till 8.30 p.m., with half an hour for meals. 1 do not think the Department would expect a clerk in any of their institutions to do attendant's work in the morning before 9 o'clock and till 8.30 at night. Under the strain the quality of the office-work would be bound to suffer. At present there is increased work, it being the end of the year; returns have to be made out, licenses renewed, &c. Had I been engaged as clerk-attendant the position would have been very different, and one I would not have accepted, but I was engaged to do clerking work, that I have been at for the past ten years. Apologising for troubling you, and knowing this will receive your careful consideration.—Yours obediently, E. Howden." 46. At the same time that this letter went up the statements made by the girls also went up ? —Yes. 47. Did Mrs. Branting send this letter at the same time: "4th January, 1908.—The Secretary for Education, Wellington.—Sir,—Enclosed please find a communication from Miss Howden complaining of overwork. When I engaged Miss Howden I thought I made her duties quite clear : in the mornings, alternate weeks, to take with Miss Hunt the supervision of the girls who milk and feed the fowls. She made not the slightest objection to this till Tuesday last, when she asked to be relieved of relieving Miss Hunt. I, in course of conversation, said I hoped wi three should all work happily together, and that when the new wing was up there would be more: iris, and that there would be a readjustment of the staff, and she would not be required to do anything but clerical work. I hoped the building would be up in about six months, and when the building was open I would ask that her salary be then £60 per year. I told Miss Howden on Tuesday, the 31st December, 1907, that I was not prepared to make any alteration until the new wing was up, and that if she was not satisfied she had better send in her resignation; that Miss Hunt had done the work and much more for a long time previous to her taking it over, and had not found it excessive. She said she did not wish to leave, but wished only to do office-work. She wished to place the matter before you. Hence this. —E. T. Branting. P.S.—I should like to state that I always take the girls for an hour in. the evening unless there is a class. In any case all the staff but one get that hour as leisure " ?—Yes. 48. I think in answer to that a memorandum came down from the Department asking Miss Howden to send in her resignation, which she refused to do, and therefore she was dismissed ?—Yes. 49. Did you ever have any complaints from Miss Howden when you were here? —No. 50. Did Miss Howden also send this letter : " Federal Coffee Palace, Christchurch, 4th February, 1908, —The Minister of Education, Wellington.—Sir,—l have to strongly protest against my dismissal from the clerkship of the Te Oranga Home on the report of some of the inmates without being given an opportunity to be heard in my own defence, and the charge made against me is utterly without foundation, and if you will grant me an interview I am sure I can prove this to your satisfaction. It is a very serious thing for a person in my position to leave the service under such circumstances as these I have been forced into, and I most respectfully request your early- attention to my case. —Yours obediently, E. Howden"? —Yes. I replied acknowledging the letter, and stating the matter was under consideration. 51. Then this Commission came along?— Yes. I should like to say there was never any intention on the part of the Department that Miss Howden should be anything else but clerk-attendant. There was not the work here to keep a clerk going. That was distinctly stated in the memorandum to the Matron when Miss Howden was engaged. She was to be clerk-attendant at a salary of £52. 52. The Matron had that memo, from the Department?— Yes. 53. It was not likely, in the face of that memo., the Matron would go and engage a person as clerk only ?—I think it is exceedingly unlikely. 54. In how many cases has hair-cutting been resorted to as a punishment in any of these reformatory institutions? —We have only nad two cases of hair-cutting as a punishment in connection with our industrial, schools—these two girls at Te Oranga who had their hair cut last November. There was a little girl here a short time ago who was very- much addicted to absconding. She came here with her hair short, and the Matron was authorised to keep it short, The Department for the last six or seven years has always been averse to hair-cutting. We have on three separate occasions declined to allow the Matron to cut girls' hair as a punishment. It was only in the case of these two girls, when we considered something very drastic should be done, that we agreed to it. 55. Were these cases considered by the Minister himself?— Yes. 56. And the authorisation was by the Minister? —Yes. 57. Then, so far as the Matron is concerned, this hair-cutting was under the direct authority of the Minister? —Yes. 58. Is this the correspondence which took place on the subject : " 4th November, 1907. The Secretary for Education, Wellington.— Re H M . —Sir, —I have to report that on Saturday this girl was the ringleader of an attempt to abscond on the part of four girls. I returned from town by the ten past 1 o'clock tram, and was informed that H M had absconded at noon, taking G J with her. I joined the searchers in the lupins; came in after a time to find E S and M H had absconded. Fortunately, they ran into Miss

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Mills, who was searching the road. I went then to see Mrs. Kaye, and was told of two more who were missing. However, they turned up, so you see it was a very anxious time. We thought we had lost H and G . I spoke to the girls of the sin, &c, at prayer-time, and one girl — F B appears to have been conscience-stricken, and asked me to take her to the office. When there, and before the constable, who had arrived, she said she knew where the girls were, and would take me to them. We found them through a manhole over the lavatories. They were going when the place was quiet. H has asked about ten girls to go out with her, and the four arranged to meet at a low house in town, of which II knew. I cannot keep this girl shut up continually, but, as an example, have I your permission to cut the hair of the two worst girls, H M and E S ? This would stop the trouble.—E. T. Branting."—" Hon. Minister, —The absconding of girls is a serious matter. The consequences may, and in some cases have been, exceedingly deplorable. I consider that in. ordinary circumstances the cutting of a girl's hair would be an outrage that could scarcely be defended, but, of course, sentiment has its limits. H M is a very bad and unruly girl, as these papers show. E S has not hitherto been reported as particularly unruly, but no doubt the Manager has good ground for her recommendation. I recommend that she be authorised to carry out her proposals.—E. 0. Gibbes.—7th November, 1907." " Approved.—G. F."?—Yes. 59. Apart from the sentiment altogether, do you consider it is a proper thing to do in the case of girls of this kind? —When it comes to a question between keeping the girls here and saving them from such a step as these girls were taking, I think there can be no question whatever about it. 60. Do you think if this E S , who is away to-day, had had her hair cut it would have prevented her going?— Very likely. 61. It would make them more easily recognised ?—There is no doubt about it. 62. In regard to corporal punishment generally, will you give the Commission the benefit of your ideas on that point? —The Department all through has been averse to corporal punishment if it could be avoided —that is, speaking particularly in regard to the elder inmates. The managers are very well aware of that, and they endeavour as far as they possibly can to avoid corporal punishment. I may say that at Burnham corporal punishment has been reduced very considerably. Here the number of cases is small, and it has been inflicted in only grave cases, as I think an inspection of the punishment register will show. A strapping is generally inflicted as the result of a long-continued course of action which is designed to upset the discipline of the Home, or in the case of absconding or attempting to abscond. 63. In the case of these girls who are now away, what punishment could be inflicted on them when they come back, short of corporal punishment, that would have any effect on them, and would tend to impress on them and the other inmates the seriousness of the business? —Supposing we had deprived a girl of all privileges and pleasures, and she deliberately endeavours to upset the discipline of the school, and behaves in such a way as only those who have seen it can appreciate, in such a case it seems to me, with the means we have at present, hardly anything else can be done. These offences are against the whole discipline of the school, and some means must be taken to maintain the discipline, otherwise you would simply have a mutiny. 64. If we had a building to put the worst girls in, would that help at all?— There is no doubt that would bring corporal punishment down to a minimum ; but I thoroughly agree with Mr. Smail when he said he thought it would be a grave thing to entirely eliminate the power to inflict corporal punishment. If girls of this class in the Home now knew that had been done, well, I think the consequences would be very very bad indeed. 65. The Commissioner.] Do I understand the Department exercises no control over corporal punishment inflicted in the Home except by virtue of these regulations?— That is so. 66. Although you say the Department generally disapproves entirely of corporal punishment, it leaves it practically to the managers of these institutions to inflict it or not as they think fit?— We carefully scrutinise the copies of the punishment register that come to our office once a month, and if it appears in any case the punishment is beyond the offence we are not slow to call the Manager's attention to it. 67. The question naturally arises, if you admit that you are averse to corporal punishment as a Department, and yet think it would be a disastrous thing in the interests of the institution to do away with it, why not keep the infliction of corporal punishment entirely in your own hands? Of course, there is the difficulty that the Manager could hardly act except by telegraphing. If site wrote it might take three or four days before she got an answer from Wellington, and it is difficult sometimes to say what is wanted in a telegram without making it of inordinate length. 68. I only suggest that as a sort of modus vivendi between the two extremes. The present outcry is against the indiscriminate use of corporal punishment by the person who is in immediate charge of the children, and the public probably would be generally satisfied if the control were kept in the hands of the Department?— Well, I think some such means might be devised to meet the case of big girls. I would not say it would be necessary in the case of big boys. 69. Mr. Russell.] Would it be better, in your opinion, if the question of punishment were remitted to the Magistrate, so that he could hear both sides?—l am inclined to think not. Our whole aim is to keep the children away from the Court, We constantly say to the inmates as soon as they are admitted, "Now, so far as we are concerned, we hope this is the last connection you will have with the Court." Our aim is to put all that behind them. I think, therefore, the decision could be safely left to the Minister. 70. The Commissioner.] Upon the advice, perhaps, of the Manager, indorsed by the Medical Officer?— Yes. 71. Mr. Russell.] These are your ideas generally on the question of punishment? —Yes. I hope when we have this third-class'building erected that corporal punishment will be almost eliminated,

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72. Supposing that then the inmates assault the staff, as has been done before, and continue impudent, what are you going to do ?—lf a reformatory cannot deal with these girls, then the only possible thing to do is to send them a step further. 73. You agree in regard to girls of a certain class whose conduct has not been good that it would be a good thing to have the power, under certain restrictions, to make their sentence indeterminate? —I would say the same as I did in giving evidence before the Burnham Commission as to this detention after twenty-one years. My reply was this : When an inmate of the Home who was regarded by the Manager as unfit to be at large was nearing twenty-one, that his or her case should be brought before the Magistrate; and I would, in order to insure that inmate having an absolutely fair hearing, advocate that the Government should provide the inmate with counsel, so that his or her case might have the very fullest hearing. Then, if the Magistrate was satisfied that it was a case for further detention, he should have power to extend the period of detention under the original order to, say, twenty-five years of age. But I would provide that the Minister's powers of license during that period should remain as they are at present —that is to say, if during the four years' extension the inmate showed sufficient improvement to warrant being licensed out the Minister should have power to license him or her out as at present. If on coming near the twenty-five years of age there was still no improvement, I would repeat the process, always preserving the Minister's power to license out. I think that the indeterminate sentence savours too much of confirmed criminality; and in many cases it may not be that; it may simply be because of moral or mental weakness, and therefore I prefer the extension of the period of detention for some definite time. 74. Do you agree with the other witnesses that the result of the training of the girls at this Home has been a great improvement in them and has effected a great upward movement?— There can be no two opinions about it. It has really been wonderful. 75. Can you give us any idea as to how many girls have gone through this Home? —Since the Home was established in 1900 sixty-two girls have passed out of control—that is to say, they have passed out to service, and have done sufficiently well for their period of "detention to be absolutely terminated. At the termination of the period of control thirty-two were of good character, thirteen would be classed as fair, eight as bad, three of them were missing at the time, three were weak-minded, and in three cases the period was terminated by death. Our system is that we do not claim a success until an inmate has been beyond the control of the school for three years. Well, there are only thirty-nine girls who have been beyond the control of Te Oranga Home for three years, and of these nineteen are known to be of good character, two are unknown, two are weak-minded, two of them remained on at Mount Magdala, and one has died since. 76. I think this number included girls who were rapidly drawing near twenty-one when they first came here?— Yes. At first we culled from the industrial schools the absolutely incorrigible cases. They were about the wildest team I have ever seen. When I first visited Te Oranga there were nine inmates, mostly young women, in a state verging on open rebellion, and 1 went away from the Home feeling we had a very tough row to hoe. These girls were almost hopeless at the beginning. I expect, seeing that we get the girls younger now, that we will in the next half-dozen years be able to put up a much better record. 77. These ten failures include the girls who came here first?— Yes. 78. Is it not true that, as you could only keep these girls until they were twenty-one, the Home had very- little chance with them in the year or two before they attained their majority? — That is so. 79. Can you give us any figures at all showing how the girls have done who have been in the Home five or six years?—No ; the period is not long enough yet. 80. But so far as you can see, although the three years have not gone by, are the girls who have been beyond the control of the Home for two years giving fair promise?— Decidedly. 81. You consider it is a good investment for the country to carry on this Home here? —I am absolutely certain of it. 82. And generally, from your experience, you can suggest nothing beyond the question of corporal punishment and the question of classification which would improve the management?— Of course, if we had considerably more staff we could give the girls a great deal more individual attention, but I would not advocate that, It would mean we would have a large number of women here with comparatively little to do. 83. Do the children suffer through'this extra staff not being at the Home?—l do not think so. There is sufficient staff to carry on the work of the Home. 84. Including the moral part of it?— Yes. Of course, we have immense help from outside workers. There is Mr. Smail : the Department cannot thank him too much. W T e have also Mrs. Kaye, Mr. and Mrs. Inwood, and the Official Visitors : they are all doing really excellent work, and the Department is grateful to them for it. 85. Mr. Salter.] How many times a year do you visit Te Oranga?—Perhaps four or five times, on the average. Last year I was here less often than usual. 86. Do you ever make suggestions to the Matron in regard to matters in connection with the Home?— Constantly. 87. In writing or verbally? —Our procedure is this: I come here, and Mrs. Branting brings matters before me, or I bring them before her, and we discuss them, and then she writes officially to Wellington about them. lam then in possession of the facts, and in a position to advise the head of the Department. 88. With reference to communications from Mrs. Branting to Wellington, did you ever suggest to her that she should write direct to Sir Edward Gibbes, and mark her letters " Private and confidential "?—I never suggested she should mark any letters " Private." You are referring to the case of A G . Mrs. Branting had a talk to me about the girl, and she put the matter

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to me very fully. She told me she would like to state her case more fully to Sir Edward Gibbes than she had done in an official memorandum, but at the same time she did not wish to have it on the file in the ordinary official way. I said to her, " Well, you always have an opportunity to mark your letter "Confidential." That is what took place. I am sure there is absolutely nothing in that letter. 89. Acting on your suggestion, do you know whether Mrs. Branting did write such a letter to Sir Edward Gibbes? —Yes, she wrote a confidential letter. 90. Would that letter get on the file? —No. 91. Would you say that was acting as the Manager of the institution should act on a public matter?—lt is a common, enough thing for officers in the public service to write confidentially about matters. 92. But this was a matter in dispute between Mrs. Branting and Mrs. Bean, and, as I am instructed, this was your suggestion in order to get information before Sir Edward Gibbes? —I had the information myself, and I could have given it to him. 93. But that is not the point. You made a suggestion to Mrs. Branting by which she was to get certain information before Sir Edward Gibbes which would be confidential, and would not be put on the public file, and I want to know if you think that is a correct method of procedure ? —It is a thing which is done in the public service. 94. But was it a fair suggestion to make in connection with such a matter as this?— Quite fair, and under similar circumstances I would do the same thing again. If you will accept my assurance, there was absolutely nothing in that letter which would suggest that Mrs. Branting tried to get behind Mrs. Bean. 95. Can you tell me whether there was any correspondence marked " Confidential " between Mrs. Branting and the Department in regard to Miss Howden? —Absolutely none. 96. Will you tell me whether the Matron ever asked for permission to cut hair before? —Yes. Permission had been refused by the Department as far back as 1901, again in 1905, and I think there was another case. The Department said " No, we will use that as a very last resource." 97. They rightly regarded it, as I think Sir Edward Gibbes put it, as an outrage?— Yes. 98. Do you remember what offence had been committed when Mrs. Branting applied for permission to cut hair before? —Absconding. 99. Then, at first the Department regarded hair-cutting as an outrage, but afterwards did not so regard it?— The position was grave, as you will see by the minute which has been quoted. It was thought to be an altogether unusual offence, and should be dealt with in an unusual way. 100. Will you tell me what record there was of A G 'sage?— The position was simply this : In accordance with the Department's practice we applied to the Registrar-General for the certificate of birth of A G , and that was supplied to us, and by a strange coincidence that certificate was not of the same A G as we had here. 101. Was there another A G in any of your schools?—No; but she was born within a few months of the girl in the Home. As soon as Mrs. Bean gave me the facts that would enable me to make a further search I had that search made, and the matter was at once righted. 102. The Commissioner.] It was a pure accident? —Yes, an extraordinary coincidence. 103. Mr. Salter.] But could not the facts stated in the first certificate have been verified in some way?— No. I think, speaking from memory, we had neither the father's nor mother's names. The mistake occurred through the closeness of the date of birth, and living in the same locality. 104. But the fact remains that had it not been for Mrs. Bean's interference, as I may call it, this girl would have remained under the charge of the Department for nine months longer than she ought?— Yes ; and an excellent thing too for her. 105. Then, Mrs. Bean stated that the Department has asked for no information about this girl for four months. Is it not your practice to keep an eye on the girls who go out to service? Can you explain how it is Mrs. Bean has never been asked to report, especially as you regarded her as such a bad girl?— The regulations are that the departmental visit has to be made once in six months. 106. Do you never ask for reports from the mistresses?— Yes; but this was altogether an unusual case, as you know. 107. Then there is the case of that girl L R , or C C : by whom was permission given to keep that girl beyond her twenty-first birthday?—No permission was given to keep her beyond her twenty-first birthday. The position w-as simply this : I know that girl very well indeed. She is a half-caste Chinese, ancTthere was a grave danger of her going back to the Chinese life. Some two or three years ago the Matron had reported to the Department that the girl had such characteristics that she thought it would be an excellent thing if she could be dealt with after she was twenty-one years of age. However, a situation was found for the girl, and much to Mrs. Branting's surprise she was doing well in it. She reached twenty-one years of age, and Mrs. Branting, with a view to protecting the girl, asked me whether I would object to her having a wages agreement made out, not a license made out on the departmental form. She said that so far as she knew the girl did not know she was twenty-one, and that it would be a splendid thing for her if she could still be led to regard the Matron as her protector. I said, "If you think, that will assist you in keeping the girl under your protection I will not object to your having an agreement made out." No license was ever signed. 108. You consented to a course which was irregular?— Yes; we have to sometimes sail a little bit close to the wind. I will state an instance. We had very recently to allow a Burnham boy to go loose on society. He is one of the vilest creatures we have ever had in one of our industrial schools. Taking advantage of a technicality, we have kept him as long as we could; but pressure has been brought to bear on us, and we have had to allow him to go. That means that this degene-

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rate is now loose on society. The only action our Department could take was to let the police in that district know that such a person was coming into the district. That shows, to my mind, the absolute need of an extension of the power of detention. 109. The Commissioner.] The point is this : Has any officer of the Department the right to arrogate to himself the power to go outside the law, and your answer can only be—and you ought to be content with it—that you do it in the interests of the girls?— Yes. The Matron hoodwinked the girl, as it were, in her own interests. She was written off the books in the ordinary way, so what other motive could the Matron have had but the girl's own interest? 110. Mr. Salter.] But it was an illegal act on your part to keep the girl after she was twentyone?—There is no legal direction, and we did it in the girl's own interest. I take the responsi bility. 111. If that were continued, might it not open the door to abuse?— Well, I do not think so. 112. In this case there was a license made out in the name of Mr. A ?—No license was ever issued. It was made out on the agreement form. 113. There is money belonging to this girl now in the hands of the Matron? —Yes, the Matron has told me that. 114. And she has not banked it? —She cannot bank it, because the banking can only be done for inmates. 115. Is it a right thing for the Matron to hold money belonging to a girl over twenty-one, who has a right to possession of her own money?—l am not in a position to speak about that. I presume the Matron is holding it until the girl asks her for it. The girl certainly has not suffered. 116. You said just now that the Home was well provided for, and that we must consider the taxpayers' pocket. There seemed to be some reservation in that statement, and I would like to know, if you did not consider the taxpayers' pocket, would there be some other provision made for the girls?—lf we did not consider the taxpayers' pocket, it might come that the girls would have Chesterfield couches to sit upon. 117. That is absurd, surely?— That is what I meant. We equip the Home according to what we consider is suitable for the inmates, and, so far as that goes, the Home is absolutely well equipped. 118. Is it not a fact that the manager of any public institution would be patted on the back for having managed the concern in an economical manner ?—I have known of no case in our Department, and it is not so. Our order is to provide for the inmates properly. 119. You admit the food supplied here would be plainer than that supplied in their own homes? —Yes, but better. 120. You saw the sample of bread and dripping and bread and jam that was brought into the room? —Yes. 121. Do you not consider the girls rightly consider that as bread and scrape?—Oh, no. The jam had manifestly been put on some time, and it had soaked in a bit. That is what happened there. 122. One of the attendants'said it was scantily spread?— Yes. 123. Do you agree with that?—No; not from what I have seen on the table. There is no scrimping, and no object in scrimping. 124. Do you, as representing the Department, approve of the Matron using bedroom chambers for storing the jam?—lf I had noticed that in any of my inspections I think I should have said tc the Matron, "Matron, I think to avoid comment I would not refill these." Ido not like it, and it is not what I should do. 125. Surely on your visits of inspection you would have seen them?—l never noticed any of them. The Commissioner has seen them. They were right up on high shelves, and out of view. 126. With regard to the statements made by the girls about Miss Howden, you know the girls have a reputation for being liars?— Yes. 127. Do you consider, as a fair man, it was right to judge Miss Howden on these statements, not on oath, of three girls who are admittedly liars?—l did not judge on the statements of the three girls. Mrs. Branting told me that other girls had made similar statements to her. Also, I would point out to you that one of the main factors in causing the Department to ask Miss Howden to resign was her dissatisfaction with the conditions under which she was working here. That in itself was a considerable ground for our action 128. That was quite a different matter?—No, the two things were considered together. 129. Did you attach any weight to the statements of the girls?— Yes, some weight; and to the fact that Mrs. Branting had told me of the unrest in the Home, and other minor details. 130. Did the other information that Mrs. Branting gave you refer to Mr. Fendall?—No, I do not think it did. 131. Did Mrs. Branting tell you she blamed Miss Howden for giving Mr. Fendall the information? —Not then. 132. But afterwards? —Oh, since she has said she thought it was probable the information had come from Miss Howden. 133. You are satisfied now that Miss Howden had nothing to do with the information given to Mr. Fendall?—l think that has been made clear. 134. With regard to Miss Howden's salary, has Mrs. Scale anything to do with your Department?— Yes, she is the officer who visits children who are boarded out and placed out at situations. She has nothing to do with the Head Office administration. 135. Have you any reason to doubt that Mrs. Scale told Miss Howden that her salary would be £60 per annum?—l know nothing at all about it, 136. There are certain substantial contributions made to this Home at Christmas time by th.3 public?— Yes.

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137. Is any record kept of the moneys supplied by the public at Christmas time? —I do not think so. 138. Are not considerable sums subscribed ?—-I understand so. Sometimes money is given and sometimes presents in kind. 139. Do you know what the money is given for? —For the delectation of the inmates at Christmas time. 140. Do you know whether the money is spent on them?—l cannot say. 141. Is there no record you ever see in the course of your inspection? —No. 142. Are you aware that part of the money provided by the public at Christmas-time for the delectation of the inmates was spent in putting down a tennis-court?— Quite likely. The position is this : The Matron some considerable time ago asked me about the laying-down of a tennis-court. I said " I do not think the Department will grant you a tennis-court, but why not do the same as you did for a piano—raise half, and I have no doubt the Department will give the other half." So these subscriptions may not have been spent in lollies and that sort of thing, but have formed the nucleus of the fund which the Government subsidised for the tennis-court. 143. Do you think that the money that is subscribed by the public at Christmas-time for the special purpose of giving the girls a treat should be so spent?—lf it was distinctly given for a certain specific purpose; but I do not know that it was. 144. As representing the Department, are you satisfied with the explanation given by Mrs. Branting about that 10s. for dinners?—Of course, I do not pretend for an instant to approve of what the Matron did there. It is inexplicable to me why she did it. Knowing how very straightforward Mrs. Branting is I cannot understand why she did that in the case of a paltry 55., because I have known of cases where she has acted often in such a very different way. I simply do not understand why it should have been done. 145. Do you know anything about the system that is carried on here in regard to discount on the girls' purchases ?—I am quite satisfied with the explanation that has been given. 146. Do you not think it would be better if the girls' accounts were kept quite separate and distinct from the Matron's account? —How do you mean? 147. I understand that the purchases made on behalf of the girls go into the Matron's private account, and the discount of 10 per cent, is allowed on the full amount?—lt is all in the name of the Matron. 148. And it includes her private account? —Possibly. 149. Do you not think it would be wise, in a public institution of this sort, to have the girls' account kept entirely separate from the account of the Matron, so as to show exactly what was done with the discount?— Possibly it would. 150. We had some evidence by the dressmaker that she makes blouses and other things for the Matron: would the Department approve of the dressmaker making clothes for the Matron in Government time? —We would certainly not object to a little trivial thing like that. If you knew the long, long hours the Manager of an industrial school puts in—she is on duty you might say the whole round of the clock—l do not think you would raise any objection. I for one certainly would not. 151. You said just now that you approved of punishment with the strap if a girl absconds?— If a girl absconds —and we all know what absconding means—namely, putting herself into imminent moral danger—l would say, as a last resource, the only thing to be done is to strap her. 152. If this proves to be ineffectual?— Yes; but we have a good many cases where it has done good. You will see by the punishment register that in the majority of the cases only one strapping is given to a girl. 153. Do you think the attendants here should have the right to administer corporal punishment?— Yes, I think so. As a general rule it is not done, but there may be cases where it is advisable. 154. Do you think there would be any advantage in the Matron having to advise the Department in regard to the infliction of corporal punishment in any particular case? Do you think the Department would act contrary to her advice ? —We act on the advice of our officers if we consider the advice is sound, but not otherwise. 155. The I understand this is the only female reformatory in New Zealand? —Yes. 156. Therefore, Te Oranga gets hot only the culls from the other institutions under the Industrial Schools Acts, but the girls whom all the Magistrates in New Zealand consider require reformative treatment? —Yes. 157. Were you aware before the evidence was given in connection with this Commission of the method in which this punishment register is kept?— No. 158. It had never come to your knowledge in any shape or form?— No. 159. Do you agree with me it is absolutely essential the regulation should be strictly complied with? —Quite. 160. Of course, steps will be taken to put a stop to that in the future?— Yes. 161. Has it ever come to your knowledge that there were allegations in regard to boxing ears in connection with the institution? —No. 1.62. That, of course, you would feel called upon to discourage in every possible way?— Yes. 163. In regard to the question of classification, in the light of what Mr. Smail gave us on Saturday, and in the light of the suggestions made by Dr. Alice Moorhouse, I want to know what opinion you have formed, as a man of considerable experience in dealing with these girls, as to the ideal'method of classification, without any regard to cost or any other consideration? —I think there should certainly be four classes. For a long time we thought of being able to do with three, but I am convinced we must have a probationary class, and the building that is now planned has

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provided for that. The upstairs part will be devoted to the probationary class, and the downstairs will be for the third class and worst girls. 1 would not put every girl into the probationary class. There may be some who may be so thoroughly bad that the Manager should have power to keep them apart at once from the ordinary reformatory girls. She should be able to put such a girl into the third class straight away. If the girl showed rapid improvement she should advance her to the second class. 164. Would you make the power of moving forward from class to class a most importantauxiliary to the discipline of the institution? —Yes. 165. And would you agree with Mr. Smail as to the special qualities the person in charge of the reception ward should possess of finding the good and eliminating the bad? —I would attach very great importance to that. 166. You know many of these girls have never had a chance?—Y"es. We have cases here where the girls almost from the outset have shown they were amenable to different treatment. 167. Do you think sufficient advantage has been taken of the possibilities of girls after they have been here some time, and showing themselves not very amenable to the treatment and discipline of the Home, being given a chance to show what they can do under different auspices? The particular case in my mind is that of A G . Is that a very uncommon case?— Yes. In former times we took a good deal of advantage of that sort of thing, partly because we were so overcrowded here, but in a great many of these cases they did not answer to the change of treatment. But the case of A G is certainly one where the discipline of the Samaritan Home has been beneficial. 168. Just tell me, shortly, what governs your actions in transferring girls from here to Mount Magdala ?—They are cases of this kind : Where a girl is probably coming near twenty-one years of age, and she is incorrigibly bad, we know that Mount Magdala will take in such a case as that, and will do their best to retain them after twenty-one. In one or two cases they have been successful. Mount Magdala has on several occasions helped us in extreme cases. 169. Do you still retain rights of supervision?— Yes, in virtue of our right to visit any inmate licensed out, we claim the right to visit Mount Magdala, 170. And do you personally exercise supervision?—l have not been to Mount Magdala for some considerable time. Mrs. Branting visits the girls there, and, unless I am very much mistaken, Mount Magdala is also under inspection by the Department of Hospitals and Charitable Aid. 171. What do you pay for these girls? —At Mount Magdala we pay 6s. a week for the first year, and it drops Is. a week every year. 172. But you only send bad cases there? —Very bad cases, or cases where we are absolutely sure control after twenty-one is necessary. 173. And then the girls are licensed out to the directoress?—Yes. Ellen Theresa Branting further examined. 1. The Commissioner.] I wish you to explain this entry in the punishment register : " R C. M. W . Absconding from laundry. Threatens to go first chance she gets. Twelve strokes with the strap. Wearing the punishment dress. Still in cell." What does " Still in cell " mean ?—lt means she was kept on in the cell, and was still there when the report went to Wellington. 2. From when? —I cannot remember. I suppose from the 24th November. I admit that the book should be made up every day, but Miss Hunt as clerk-attendant has had many duties to perform. 3. What is this rough sheet Miss Howden referred to?— Miss Howden used to bring me the sheet that went up to Wellington. 4. Miss Howden attempts to make this point: Before any entries were made in this punishment register she prepared for your approval a rough list of all that was going to be entered, so that you could alter it or approve of it as the case might be before it was finally entered into the register. That is the gravamen of her evidence. Is that true or is that false?—l never altered it. She brought it to me certainly, and I said, " That will do," or " That will not do." 5. Why should you say "That will do" if it was a correct register of the punishments? Because she made it up from her own notes and Miss Hunt's notes and from what I could recollect of what went on during the month. 6. If you inflicted a certain punishment, how did you keep a record of it?—l knew what went on in the month, and I could remember every one of them. If I put a girl in the cell I could remember every case. 7. Did you ever instruct Miss Howden when you saw an entry " In cell " to alter it to " In cell and detention-yard "?—lf I thought a girl had been in the cell and detention-yard I certainly would; but Ido not remember anything about these alterations. I have not the faintest recollection. There was no object in it. I did not want to deceive anybody. 8. Of course, apart from the particular gravity of these cases referred to, the point is that the register is not a correct and fair record of the number of punishments?—l contend that it is. 9. When is this book signed by the doctor?— When she comes every month. 10. What is the value of it?— That she approves of the punishments. 11. She really only casually goes through the bookl—Yes. 12. I want you to tell me what governs your action in respect to letting the girls go out to service? —Their suitability. 13. At what age do you allow girls to go out? If you say you never consider a girl's age in sending her out that answers my question ?—I consider the suitability of the girl and the situation coming forward.

E. T. BEANTING.]

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14. But, surely there is an age below which a girl is not fitted to go out?— They come to me at fourteen, and I generally keep them a year or a year and a half before sending them out for training and discipline. 15. What else do you consider when the time comes?—l say to that girl, " You are improving. 1 see you are trying to do your best, and lam very pleased to see it. Now, if you go on like that a little bit longer I shall have no excuse for keeping you in the institution. lam proud to see you getting on so well." I said that to a girl to-day. I tell them to try and not go with the bad girls, but to keep to themselves. Then she goes out to service. 16. For what period, as a rule, is the license made out?—lf I see a mistress will not give a high wage, or the wage I think the girl deserves, I make the license out for six months, and then renew it. 17. How do you find places for the girls? —People are constantly writing. I have more applications than I have girls to fill. 18. You simply use your own discretion in discriminating between the places for differentgirls?—Yes. 19. In regard to the payment of girls for services inside the Home, just describe what is done? —There are six paid positions-in the Home—in the kitchen, scullery, sitting-room, sewing-room, laundry, and the milking-girl, and sometimes I give the poultry-girl 2s. The wages of these girls average from ss. to Bs. per month, according to how they prove themselves industrious and willing to learn and be useful. 20. Do you occasionally have cases in which you think that a girl might with advantage be subjected to discipline other than that of Te Oranga, such as in the case of A G ?—Not very often. Sometimes we have to transfer girls to Wellington and Caversham. 21. Have you any at Mount Magdala at present?— Yes, seven. 22. What are they there for? —They made such a disturbance here that it was advisable to separate them from the other girls. They were all Roman Catholic girls. 23. Mr. Salter.] In regard to the money subscribed by the public for the benefit of the inmates at Christmas, what record is kept of it? —The money is banked. 24. What is it subscribed for?— For the benefit and recreation of the inmates, not specially for Christmas. 25. Do you use any part of it for any special meal for the inmates? —Yes, I buy a good many things at Christmas in the shape of lollies and fruit. But Mr. Smail is always so good in helping me out with Christmas goods. Every girl has a substantial Christmas gift, and if I can do without spending the money I consider that is sufficient, and then it goes to the recreation fund. From this recreation fund I have bought a piano, erected a gymnasium, and laid down a tennis-court, and lam very keen now on getting the girls a swimming-bath. I think if I can save money Tor such a purpose it is more beneficial than buying the girls something to eat when they have plenty already. The girls have something special for the whole of Christmas week —as much as they can get through. The Official Visitors collect most of the money, and they are quite aware of what 1 do with it, and are in sympathy with my objects. 26. How much is there to the credit of that fund now?—£94. I have to get £150, because the swimming-baths will cost £300. I will then get a Government subsidy of £1 for £1. I may say the girls are just as keen about it as I am. 27. Mr. Russell.] When the girl L- R , in giving her evidence, said you cautioned her, and told her to lock her door, as Mr. A might come in and sleep with her, was there any truth in that? —None whatever. I was amazed to hear her make such a statement, and I thought it a great shame that such a thing should be said about any man's character. I may say I always give the girls who go to service a general caution. 28. You want to deny on oath that you made this particular statement?— Yes, T wish to totally deny it. MTSS HOWDEN'S APPOINTMENT. During the progress of the inquiry Miss E. Howden submitted the following questions to the officers named in reference to the terms and conditions of her appointment to the staff at Te Oranga Home, and the Commissioner directed that the questions and answers received thereto should be added to the evidence. Questions to be answered by Mrs. Scale. 1. Did you recommend Miss Howden for appointment at Te Oranga?—The Matron asked if I knew of a suitable clerk-attendant, and I mentioned Miss Howden favourably. 2. Had you confidence in her suitability for the position ?—Yes. 3. In your opinion, was Miss Howden straightforward and truthful? —I had no reason to doubt her in these respects. 4. Do you remember telling Miss Howden at the station that Mrs. Branting would give her £60 per annum to commence with as salary?—My words were, " T understand that a suitable clerkattendant will be paid £60 a year." 5. Did you understand that her position at the Home was to be that of clerk only?—No ; as the position was that of clerk-attendant, and not clerk only, I thought probably other duties might be expected. 6. Were you aware later on that Miss Howden had to do cow work?—l was subsequently made aware that Miss Howden had the supervision of the girls when they milked the cows kept for the use of the school. 7. Whose authority had you for naming the salary —viz., £60?— The Matron mentioned this sum as the salary of clerk-attend ant prior to her business interviow with Miss Howden. C. F. Scale, Visiting Officer, Industrial Schools

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Questions to be answered by Mr. Walker. 1. Do you remember Miss Howden, in the presence of Miss Harrison, speaking to you in reference to her holiday? —No. 2. Do you remember Miss Howden telling you that she was informed by the Matron of Te Oranga that at your suggestion the time of her illness was to count off her holiday? —No. 3. Did you make that suggestion to the Matron? —No. 4. Did you deny this allegation to Miss Howden, and add that it was the first you knew of her illness, or words to that effect? —No. I may have said that it was the first I knew of her illness. 5. Did you also add that, as a matter of fact,* it did not come under your Department?— No. (i. Please state what you remember of this interview? —I remember Miss Howden saying that the expenses in connection with her illness were heavy. I remember, too, that the Matron remarked that she thought Miss Howden acted very foolishly in getting out of bed, or leaving her room and walking to the door or gate to reach her cab, or words to that effect. Anything that was said at the time was said in a joke; there was laughter. F. T. Walker. Questions to be answered by Mr, Beck. 1. Do you audit the books of Te Oranga Home?—l audit the Post-Office Savings-Bank accounts of inmates at service, and all amounts paid by the Education Department as wages and pocketmoney to girls in residence at Te Oranga Home. 2. Have you ever suggested any alterations in the method of book-keeping at the Home? —Yes. 3. What did you suggest?—l suggested that a less complex system of book-keeping be adopted. On returning to YVellington, immediately after auditing, I discussed the matter with Mr. Pope. 4. Were you satisfied as to the method adopted in keeping account of the resident inmates' wage and mark money I —l was satisfied at the time that all moneys paid by the Department for wages and pocket-money had been properly accounted for. 5. Was such expenditure included in the Manager's private account?—l do not understand what is meant by " Manager's private account." At the time of auditing I understood from the Manager that she allowed the girls to incur certain expenditure, and saw that the accounts were paid out of their wages and mark-money. 6. Did you recommend that the girls' articles should be kept separate from her private account?—l have no recollection of so doing. 7. Do you know how the girls get the benefit of the 10-per-cent. discount allowed on the goods purchased for them by the Manager ?—I am under the impression that Mrs. Branting told me that the amount allowed as discount was expended for the benefit of the girls. 8. Do you remember the Manager saying your suggested alteration would increase the work of the clerk? —Yes ; but this statement was made by Mrs. Branting before she was fully aware of the alteration that. I proposed should be made. 9. Did you reply that your wish was tp decrease it if possible? —Yes. 10. Did you then understand Miss Howden's duties were restricted to clerking?— No. 11. Have you any recollection of Miss Hunt volunteering the response to a question of yours that Miss Howden did only clerk's work? —No. 12. Did Miss Howden contradict this statement?—l could not say. 13. Have you any method of checking the Manager's expenditure?— 14. Have you ever questioned such expenditure?— 15. Are vouchers received for this expenditure?— 16. What expenditure was questioned in December in regard to dinners?— 17. What was the explanation of the Manager?— 18. Were you satisfied with the explanation of the Manager?— These questions [13 to 18] seem to have been asked under a misapprehension as to my duties. (See my answer to question No. 1). 18th March, 1908 J. Beck.

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EXHIBITS.

EXHIBIT No. 1.

List of Punishments inflicted at Te Oranga Home since 7th February, 1906.

Date. Inmate. Offence. Punishment. 1906. feb. 7 .. 7 .. E. W. .. E. M. Trying to abscond Boasting of her immoral conduct while at service to inmates, continually* Most impudent to all the staff, and will not work or obey orders 6 strokes with strap. 10 strokes with strap. ilar. 15-16 M. C. 24 hours in punishment, or 12 hours each day for two days in denten-tion-yard. A day in detention-yard. 3 hours in cell. 9 hours in cell, and wear punishment dress 3 hours in detention-yard. 10 cuts with strap—5 on each hand. 10 cuts on hands, and sent to bed for the rest of the day. 12 cuts with strap on hands. „ 26 . . „ 25 . . „ 28 .. M. R. M. E. G. N. Bold and unmanageable Striking a girl in the face Trying to abscond, and inciting two other girls to do same Insolent and disobedient to attendant For untruthfulness Insubordinate to staff on the way to church ipril 8 .. A. C. „ 13 .. E. O'L. .. „ 14 . . ., 29 .. „ 28 .. M. R. .. M. R. .. E. O'L. .. Struck a girl, M. W., across the face, and afterwards told a lie Insolence and insubordination Insolent to staff 12 cuts with strap—6 on each hand. Placed by attendant (in absence of acting-manager) in the cell for 3 hours. 3 hours in detention-yard. 4 hours in detention-yard. 4 hours in cell. 5 days in detention-yard. 3 days in detention-yard. day 3 .. 9 .. „ 23 .. fune 3 „ 15 .. M. C. M. C. M. R. .. M. C. E. D. Frequent insubordination Very impudent and insubordinate Very quarrelsome with inmates and impudent to staff Continual insubordination and impudence Continual insubordination, and quarrelling with inmates Quarrelling and making a disturbance with inmates, and threw a jug at staff, and most impudent Most impudent and defiant Defiant and impudent Fighting (twice) Constantly insubordinate Stayed out all night from her situation ruly 1 . ■ E. O'L. .. One night in cell, and 4 strokes with strap. - 4 hours in cell. 12 hours in cell. 4 strokes with strap. 6 hours in cell. 24 hours in cell; 6 strokes with strap. 8 hours in detention-yard. 5 hours in the cell. 4 hours in detention-yard. 3 hours in detention-yard. 6 strokes with strap ; 7 hours in cell. 12 hours in detention-yard. „ 17 .. „ 19 . . „ 21 . . „ 23 .. „ 24 .. E. D. E. O'L. .. E. B. R. C. M. W. R. B. „ 29 .. Uig. 3 .. 3 .. 9 .. „ 11 .. „ 12 .. „ 15 .. „ 29 .. Sept. 3 9 .. „ 14-17 V. H. .. R. C. M. W. A. G. M. R. .. M. R. .. M. R. E. D. E. D. H. M. M. C. M. C. Impudent to staff, and quarrelling with inmates .. Impudent to staff, and insubordination Fighting with inmates Most impudent and defiant Trying to abscond with another inmate Defiant and impudent Long continual bad behaviour Defiant and impudent Refused to work, and impudent to staff Insubordination Defiant to staff, bawling through the Home, and refusing to do what she is told „ 22-25 M. R. Pilfering from inmates, using bad language, and threatening to strike Matron Insubordination ; this girl is incorrigible Absolutely refused to work Absconding from her situation 7 hours in detention-yard. 12 hours in detention-yard. 5 hours in detention-yard. 18 hours in cell; 8 strokes with strap; 36 hours in detentionyard. 9 hours in cell; 36 hours in deten-tion-yard ; 6 strokes with strap. 5 hours in detention-yard. 8 hours in detention-yard. 24 hours in cell ; 12 strokes with strap, and 12 hours in detentionyard each day. 6 strokes with strap. „ 26 . . )ct. 4 .. 5-28 M. C. M. C. E. S. 8 .. 8 .. „ 18 .. E. W. .. M. S. A. S. Filthy talk, and immoral behaviour „ 20 .. „ 27-30 M. R. A. S. »> ,, • . . . Fighting, scratching, and spitting upon another inmate Quarrelling, and inciting other inmates to do same.. Absconding from the Home; stealing from a house in neighbourhood the sum of £2 ; and sundry other things Absconded; climbed over detention-yard wall, and robbed houses Impudent to staff, and threatening to strike an inmate Absconding and stealing 4 strokes with strap. 6J hours in detention-yard. 24 hours in cell, 12 strokes with strap, 12 hours in detention-yard. „ 30 .. A. S. 24 hours in cell. „ 31 .. >Jov. 1-30 E.O'L. .. A. S. 7 hours in cell. Still wearing punishment dress, and in cell when cannot be watched. 12 hours in cell. ,, 11 .'. R. C. M. W. Insolent to staff, and continually quarrelling with the inmates * I wish say that B. M. >ehaves in such a low way that she by her conversation contamii Lates the second-class girls.—E. T. B.

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List of Punishments inflicted at Te Oranga Home since 7th February, 1906 — continued.

Date. Inmate. Offence. Punishment. 1906. Nov. 16-17 E. D. Long continual impudence, and most disobedient. When in cell shouted to inmates to make a disturbance Coming from church she absconded .. 24 hours in cell. „ 18-30 H. G. N. 48 hours in cell; wearing punishment dress ; taken out to work each day, rest of time in spare „ 19 .. „ 24 .. M. C. R. C. M. W. Most impudent to staff, and will not obey orders .. Absconding from laundry ; threatens to go first chance she gets When at outside work tried to abscond room. 12 hours in cell. 12 strokes with strap; wearing punishment dress ; still in cell. 4 hours in cell; wearing punishment dress, girls go to school and go out to watched they are put into a „ 30 .. M. B. ... „ 30 .. „ 30 .. Dec. 1-31 4 .. 4 .. „ 10 .. „ 24 .. „ 30 .. 1907. Jan. 4 .. 11 .. 15 .. H. G. N. A. S. R. C. M. W. R. C. M. W. A. M. M. S. H. M. .. A. M. A. H. The detention-yard is very insecure, so these two work as usual, and at times when they cannot be spare room for safety. Still threatens to run away the first opportunity spare room for a change started to tamper with fers to remain in cell. Kept apart from the other inmates. Striking another inmate with a club Striking an inmate in the face Most impudent to staff, and refuses to work Punching, pinching, and kicking the girls Impudent to staff, and insubordination she gets. When put into the the windows, and says she pre4 strokes with strap. 6 strokes with strap. 12 hours in cell. 6 hours in cell. 11 hours in cell. 17 .. „ 18 .. Feb. 5 .. 7-28 M. C. E. O'L. .. A. S. A. S. E. D. A. C. A. A. Continual bad behaviour Most insolent to Matron Making a disturbance at night; refused to stop, and used bad language at staff Insubordination, and using bad language . Continual insubordination Striking an inmate with a stick continually Absconder from her situation. She is kept apart from the other inmates. For absconding Absconded ; climbed over the recreation-yard wall and robbed houses Indecent talk, and most insolent to staffj Continual disobedience, and quarrelling with inmates 12 hours in detention-yard. 8 hours in cell. All night in cell. 5 hours in cell. 6 strokes with strap. 10 strokes with strap. 11 .. 19-27 A. A. A. S. 12 strokes with strap. Sent to gaol on 27th February. Mar. 3 .. „ 10 .. J. L. J. L. 8 strokes with strap. 10J hours in cell. fl2 strokes with strap; 6 strokes J with strap. Each 48 hours in cell, and wearing punishment ( dresses. „ 12 .. R. M.) E. T } Trying to abscond when outside working together „ 12-26 „ 20 .. „ 22 .. ;, 22 .. „ 25 .. April 22 .. „ 12 .. „ 13 .. „ 24 .. R. M. J. P. L. K. A. A. J. L. J. L. J. L. E. D. J. L. Kept apart from other inmates. Quarrelling with inmates ; most insulting to staff.. Insubordination constant Inciting others to defy authority, and most defiant.. Continual insubordination Striking an inmate, and telling falsehood Continual insubordination, and most insolent to staff Continual insubordination Striking an inmate 4i hours in cell. 6 strokes with strap. 16 hours in cell. 12 hours in cell. 12 cuts with strap—6 on each hand. All day in cell. 5 hours in cell. Sent to bed for a week—from 24th April to 1st May. 12 cuts with strap—6 on each hand. 12 cut* with strap—6 on each hand. 6 hours in cell. May 6 .. 7 .. 9 .. S. S. J. L. J. L. Striking an inmate Kicking an inmate, and telling falsehood Striking an inmate on arms and legs with piece of timber • Striking an inmate Very insubordinate for week. Threatened to run away first opportunity Refusing to work, and most insolent to staff Continual insubordination Quarrelling with inmates, and continual bad behaviour Threatening to run away again Insubordination Insolent to staff, and inciting other inmates to make a disturbance Threatening to strike staff; bad language; and absolutely refusing to do what she is told Giving way to temper ; throwing spade at inmate ; and insolent to staff Systematic thieving and lying 11 •• June 2 J. P. A. B. 4 days in bed. 4 hours in cell. Wear punishment dress. 4£ hours in cell. 4| hours in cell. 3| hours in cell. 8 .. ,, 21 .. „ 24 .. J. L. M. R. R. B. „ 26 .. July 5 .. „ 16 .. R. B. R. H. .. M. R. .. 8 hours in cell. 4 strokes with strap. 3| hours in cell. „ 19 .. A. M. 12 hours in cell. „ 19 .. H. M. .. 9J hours in cell. „ 27 .. .;, 27 .. Aug. 9-31 M. C. M. B. F. B. Absconding from her situation 8 strokes with strap. 5 strokes with strap. 12 of the strap ; 48 hours in cell; wearing punishment dress, and kept apart from other inmates. 6 of the strap. „ 17 .. E. O'L. .. Striking the staff, and continual bad behaviour for over a week Trying to abscond when outside working. An agitator and very insubordinate girl Insubordination, and most insolent to staff ; causing much trouble with the other inmates, and inciting them to insubordination 21 .. C. J. 6 strap ; all night in cell; wearing the punishment dress. All day in the cell. „ 22 .. C. J.

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List of Punishments inflicted at Te Oranga Home since 7th February, 1906 — continued.

Date. Inmate. fence. . lenl 1907. Aug. 28, .. J. L. Impudence, and talking of absconding, and inciting 7 hours in cell. others to do the'same Knocking an inmate down, and about 6 of strap; all da; the head; night. Threatening to do for ajgin if she could get hold of All day in cell and her. A violent temper Most insolent to staff, and would not work .. 7 hours in cell. Insubordination. A bad influence in the Home .. 5-| hours in cell. Absconding from her situation .. .. 48 hours in cell;. f nnTiislimpnt-, rl^pQ* 7 hours in cell. „ 30 .. A. A. 6 of strap ; all day in cell and all night. All day in cell and ail night. „ 31 .. A. A. Sept. 11 .. „ 12 .. „ 16 .. „ 21 .. „ 22 .. „ 23 .. „ 28 .. C. W. - .. J. L. I. E. A. C. A. C. A. M. J. L. Very insubordinatef .. .. ... All day in cell. Insubordination .. .. .. .. 6 hours in cell. Refusing to work, and very bad behaviour for weeks All day in cell. Fighting and quarrelling with the other girls'; .. All day in cell, ant strau. 7 hours in cell. 5-| hours in cell. 48 hours in cell;; a,nd wearing the punishment dress.* All day in cell. 6 hours in cell. All day in cell. All day in cell, and 8 strokes with strap. Punishment dress, and to remain in cell at night, and in detentionyard during day, till she behaves better. „ 28 .. A. M. srrap. This girl behaves very badly, gives great impudence, Punishment dress, i and is a very bad example to younger inmates. cell at night, ar Says she will not work for the Government; that yard during day, she will abscond first chance ; and threatened to better, smash everything she could. Exhibited violent temper Inciting six gfrls to abscond with her .. In cell from 1st to Mount. Mairrlo.Ia Oct. 1 .. A.M. In cell from 1st to 16th. Taken to Mount Magdala. 5 strokes of strap. 4 .. 7 .. 8 .. 9 .. 19 .. Nov. 2 .. R. H. .. E. W. .. H.M. .. M. R. .. K. W. H. M. .. Mount Magdala. Refusing to do what she is told, and using bad 5 strokes of strap, language to staff Bad temper, and insolent to staff ., .. 4J hours in cell. Inciting girls to abscond .. .. In cell from 8th to Continual insubordination] .. .. 12 hours in cell. Very impudent, and continual bad behaviour .. 8 strokes of strap ; Absconding, and the ringleader of the absconders. In cell and deten Was constantly inciting a number of girls to 2nd to 10th; 12 abscond, and join her in leading a bad life and hair cut. Absconding .. .. .. .. In cell from 2nd to of stran. 4| hours in cell. In cell from 8th to Kith. 12 hours in cell. 8 strokes of strap ; in cell all night. In cell and detention-yard from 2nd to 10th ; 12 strokes of strap, and hair cut. In cell from 2nd to 8th ; 8 strokes of strap. 12 strokes of strap, and hair cut. 2 .. G. J. 2 .. 2 .. 2 .. 7 .. „ 11 .. „ 22 .. „ 22 .. Dec. 7 .. „ 13 .. 16 .. „ 17 .. „ 19 .. „ 20 .. „ 20 .. „ 26 .. „ 31 .. „ 31 .. 1908. Jan. 2 6 .. 9 .. E. S. M. H. I. E. A. S. J. L. C. W. .. R.M. .. L. T. C. J. A. C. M. H. F. S. E. S. M. H. J. L. E. W. .. J. L. or scrap. Absconding. This girl also was constantly inciting 12 strokes of strap, others to abscond and lead a bad life Absconding .. .. .. .. .. 8 strokes of strap. Insolence .. .. .. .. .. 3 hours in cell. Very insolent, and refusing to work .. .. 6 hours in cell. Continual insubordination, and the most insolent girl In cell and detentic in the Home Very impudent, and absolutely refusing to work .'. 7 hours in cell. Insolence .. r. .. .. .. 5 hours in cell. Insubordination .. .. .. .. 3 hours in cell. Idleness and insubordination .. .. .. 8 hours in cell. General bad behaviour .. .. .. 4 hours in cell. Refusing to work] .. .. .. .. „ Insolence .. .. .. .. 5J hours in cell. Insubordination .. .. .. .. 8 hours in cell. 8 strokes of strap. 3 hours in cell. 0 hours in cell. In cell and detention yard 2 days. 7 hours in cell. 5 hours in cell. 3 hours in cell. 8 hours in eel!. 4 hours in cell. 5J hours in cell. 8 hours in cell. , .. .. .. .. 4 hours in cell. ,, .. .. .. 6£ hours in cell. Insolence, and general bad behaviour .. .. 8 hours in cell. 4 hours in cell. 6£ hours in cell. 8 hours in cell. „ 22 .. „ 25 .. „ 29 .. „ 29 .. E. W. .. R. H. .. E. S. J. L. J.'L. G. J. E. W. .. Refusing to work .. .. .. .. In cell aH morning. „ .. .. .. .. 3 hours in cell. Absconding from her situation, and leading an im- 25 hours in cell; moral life for some weeks strap ; in cell an< to 17th. to 17tn. Insubordination .. .. .. All day in cell. Refusing to work .. .. .. 111 hours in cell. . Insubordination .. .. .. .. 7 hours in cell. Attempting to abscond, and inciting others to. do 5 strokes with stra] same Attempting to abscond .. .. 3 strokes with stra] Refusing to work, and informing girls she did not 6 strokes with stra] intend to Trying to abscond, and inciting other girls to do same 5 hours in cell. Threatening to fight other inmates, and destroying All day in cell. the punishment dress Refusing to work. Most insolent to staff .. 6 hours in cell. Insubordination .. .. .. .. 3 hours in cell. Continual bad behaviour for over a week, and most 5 hours in cell. insolent to staff Continual bad behaviour for a number of days .. 5J hours in coll. Stealing money from her employer (£1 lis.) .. Returned to Home Quarrelling with girls ; bawling and shouting about 7 hours in cell. the building ; most insolent to staff, and giving as much trouble as possible. Continued for days In cell aH morning. 3 hours in cell. 25 hours in cell; 12 strokes of strap ; in cell and detention-yard to 17th. All day in cell. Ill hours in cell. , 7 hours in cell. 5 strokes with strap. „ 29 .. Feb. 4 .. E. E. A. S. 3 strokes with strap. 6 strokes with strap. „ 3 .. H. M. .. 5 hours in cell. All day in cell. „ 15 .. „ 17 .. „ 20 ... L. T. M. C. M. R. 6 hours in cell. 3 hours in cell. 5 hours in cell. „ 24 .. „ 27 .. „ 29 .. M. H. .. C. W. .. E. W. .. 5J hours in coll. Returned to Home. 7 hours in cell. * This girl is sibject to epileptic fits, and was not strong enougli to be strapped or kept in confinement.

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EXHIBIT No. 2. Duties and Salaries of Staff. (While the girls are at drill in the morning, and during prayers and classes in the evening, all the attendants except one are practically off duty.) Miss Macpherson (Workmistress). Salary : £52 per annum. 7 o'clock to 8: Domestic duties. 8 to 8.30 : Breakfast. 8.30 to 12 : Dressmaking; charge of first-class girls. 12 to 1 : 'Recreation; dinner; supervise girls at recreation. I to 4.45 : Supervise girls at outside work. 4.45 to 5.30: Domestic duties to superintend. 5.30 to 6: Tea. 6to 7.30: Sewing evening, take charge of sewing and recreation. The classes the staff take turn and turn about. One afternoon and one evening a week, one Sunday a month. Miss Runt (Sub-matron). Salary : =£60 per annum. 7 to 8 : Superintend milking cows and feeding fowls. 8 to 8.30 : Breakfast. 8.30 to 12.15 : Office. Relieve the staff that is off duty four afternoons a week. Thursdays, receive inmates' relations and friends. • Meet girls coming from service, &c. And help generally. One afternoon and one evening a week, one Sunday a month. Miss Harrison (Teacher). Salary : £162 per annum. Miss Mills (Senior Attendant). Salary : £57 per annum. 7 to 8 : Domestic duties. 8 to 8.30 : Breakfast. (Each staff superintend one of the girls' meals a day, turn about.) 8.30 to 12 : Reception room; sewing and mending; charge of inmates' clothes. 12 to 1 : Recreation and dinner ; supervise recreation of girls. 1 to 4.45 : Sewing, and a number of girls to teach mending, &c. 4.45 to 5.30 : Superintend domestic duties. 5.30 to 6 : Tea. 6 to 7.30: Recreation. 7.30 to 8 : Staff take turn about at the singing. Off duty one afternoon and one evening a week, and one Sunday a month. Miss Simpson (Cook). Salary : £52 per annum. 7 to 8 : Breakfast. Dinner at 12.15. Put food away morning at 10.30. Afternoon tea at 2.30. Tea at 5.30; and get meals for member of staff that- has supervised girls' meals. Supervise girls at play in evening, and take turns at evening classes. One afternoon and one evening a and one Sundaj' a month. Miss Dean (Laundress). Salary : £40 per annum. 7to 8 : Laundry (Saturday, Monday, Tuesday; other days, domestic duties). 8 to 8.30 : Breakfast. 8.30 to 12 : Three days outdoor work (about eighteen girls). 12 to 1 : Recreation and dinner; supervise girls. 1 to 4.45 : Outside work—cows, fowls, &c. 4.45 to 5.30 : Supervise domestic duties and girls. 5.30 to 6: Tea. 6to 7.30: If recreation and sewing classes, help supervise girls. Classes and meals are taken turn and turn about. Off duty one afternoon and one evening a week, and one Sunday a month.

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During the year and in season instruction is given in cooking, singing, bee-culture, poultry-rearing, gardening, dressmaking, cutting out, patching, knitting, fancy-work, fruit-preserving, bacon-curing, plain sewing. (This time-table is subject to variations.) •

By Authority : John Mackay, Government Printer, Wellington.— 1908.

Time-table of Duties.

Hours. Monday. Tuesday. Wednesday. Thursday. Friday. Thursday. Friday. Saturday. Sunday. 7 to 8 Kise at 7 o'clock ; m ilk cows and feed pou ltry ; domestic duties (daily). 8 to 8.30 ... Prayers; breakfast; reading (daily). Domestic duties; laundry; outside work; sewing 8.30 to 12.15 Laundry- work ; two hours school; domestic duties; halfhour drill for all girls Laundry-work; two hours school; domestic duties; halfhour drill for all girls Domestic duties; | Domestic duties; Domestic duties; two hours school; I two hours school; two hours school; outside work; outside work; sew- outside work; sewmending; half- ! ing: outside work ing; outside work hour drill for all girls Domestic duties; church; reading; domestic duties. 12.15 to 1 ... Church; reading. Dinner ; reading ; re creation (daily). Domestic duties; Domestic duties; Domestic duties; two hours school; two hours school ; two hours school; sewing; outside 1 sewing sewing work i 1 to 4.45 ... Laundry-work ; two hours school; sewing ; outside work Laundry- work; two hours school; sewing ; outside work Domestic duties; bathing; outside work to 3.45 p.m. 4.45 to 7.30... Tea ; domestic dutie s ; reading (daily). 7.30 to 8 ... Recreation; prayers Mrs. Kaye's class ; prayers Recreation ; prayers i Singing - class ; one Sewing ; prayers hour sewing; prayers Recreation ; prayers Sunday school; prayers.

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Bibliographic details

EDUCATION: TE ORANGA HOME (REPORT OF COMMISSION, TOGETHER WITH MINUTES OF EVIDENCE AND EXHIBITS)., Appendix to the Journals of the House of Representatives, 1908 Session I, H-21

Word Count

143,054

EDUCATION: TE ORANGA HOME (REPORT OF COMMISSION, TOGETHER WITH MINUTES OF EVIDENCE AND EXHIBITS). Appendix to the Journals of the House of Representatives, 1908 Session I, H-21

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EDUCATION: TE ORANGA HOME (REPORT OF COMMISSION, TOGETHER WITH MINUTES OF EVIDENCE AND EXHIBITS). Appendix to the Journals of the House of Representatives, 1908 Session I, H-21

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No known copyright (New Zealand)

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Pages 1-20 of 148

Pages 1-20 of 148

Pages 1-20 of 148

Permanent link to this item

Bibliographic details

Word Count

EDUCATION: TE ORANGA HOME (REPORT OF COMMISSION, TOGETHER WITH MINUTES OF EVIDENCE AND EXHIBITS). Appendix to the Journals of the House of Representatives, 1908 Session I, H-21

Using This Item

No known copyright (New Zealand)

EDUCATION: TE ORANGA HOME (REPORT OF COMMISSION, TOGETHER WITH MINUTES OF EVIDENCE AND EXHIBITS). Appendix to the Journals of the House of Representatives, 1908 Session I, H-21

Using This Item

No known copyright (New Zealand)