NOTES OF NATIVE MEETINGS.

Appendix to the Journals of the House of Representatives, 1885 Session I, G-01

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1885. NEW ZEALAND.

NOTES OF NATIVE MEETINGS.

Presented to both Houses of the General Assembly by Command of His Excellency.

Notes of a Meeting between the Hon. Mr. Ballahce and the Wanganui Natives at Banana, on the 7th January, 1885. Major Kemp read an address of welcome: "An address of welcome from us, the chiefs, and the whole of the Wanganui people. We welcome you, the Hon. John Ballance. You have come in the clouds of your ancestors, which have descended upon you this day. Welcome, Mr. Ballance, Minister for both Europeans and Maoris. We are very thankful to you for this your first coming among us. Your predecessors came to us in the darkness of night, in the days that have gone by. You have come in peace, your garments shining as the snow on the mountain—a symbol that the white hawk of the sky and the beast of the earth will dwell together in harmony. We, your servants, are pleased that you have come, borne upon the waves, in order that the eyes of the halt, the lame, and the blind may see you. We welcome you also, Mr. Ballance, as one of the Ministers administering the Government of Her Majesty the Queen of Great Britain and Ireland, under whose shelter we live. Submission was made by the chiefs and all the hapus who assembled at Waitangi on the 6th of October, 1840, as well as by all other chiefs of New Zealand, and by which submission we are still bound. May peace be with us all." Mr. Ballanoe said : Major Kemp and chiefs and people of Wanganui, I have to return you my sincere thanks for the honour that you have done me to-day. I recognize in this reception personally good will towards myself and feelings of loyalty to the Queen. It did not require that Major Kemp should say in his address that the people of the Wanganui Eiver were loyal. I knew that before. I did not come here to promote loyalty, because that already existed. When I received from Major Kemp an invitation to visit the people of Wanganui at Banana I recognized two things—first, that no Native Minister had visited the people of Wanganui Eiver before, and next I felt that, as the Government of which I am a member had just taken office, it was my duty to come and see the Natives and talk over with them the affairs which are common to the welfare of both races, as a friend and as a Minister of the Crown, and I shall have the pleasure and the privilege of speaking to you in both capacities. I hope that before this meeting is ended we shall be able to express our views fully and freely to each other on the affairs which relate to the interests of both. I again thank you for the warm feelings which you have shown towards me. On the Bth January the Hon. Mr. Ballance met the Natives in the runanga-house. Major Kemp said : This tribe has invited the Native Minister to come here. I myself was down at Wanganui when the invitation was sent, and returned here. You are the first Minister that has accepted an invitation to come up the Wanganui Eiver. My people asked me to send the invitation, and I did so at their request, and they told me not to mention to you the object for which they desired you to come here. The subjects, numbering eight in all, have been written down, and will be brought before you for discussion. I will speak on other matters—not those that have been written down to be brought to you; they are so lengthy that I will leave them for others to address you upon. I have always taught the people of Wanganui to aim at the ends sought by rich Europeans, but now I have changed my opinions, and I think it is best that the people should only act in accordance with law. I think that all the lands should be subdivided, and the title of each person ascertained; not that I wish to prevent sales or leases of land, but I think that if it is intended to sell the land it should be cut into small blocks and sold to private individuals, because it is population that will bring prosperity to this Island. Previous Governments have assisted the speculators to obtain large blocks of land, ten or even twenty thousand acres each. As a result of this, the European who acquires the land goes away, and takes the rent to some other place; then this land becomes like a spring of water flowing towards him —he derives benefit from a great distance. I think now that if this practice is continued we shall never receive any benefit from it. Companies have done the same thing—they have acquired large blocks of land—and that is why we have always objected to companies, who, if they acquired our lands, would leave us landless. I think, therefore, that we should avoid companies altogether, and negotiate with the Government : they are the most responsible power in New Zealand, and the guardians of great and small. Now that the late Government have gone out of office, a new Government has entered with the new year, and with a new policy. There has always been a Minister called a Native Minister, but the practice hitherto I—G. 1.

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has been for him to confine his attention to the towns, and if the Natives wished to see him they had to go to him; and he was always too much engaged to give his attention to the Maoris, so we invited you to come here to see us. I think that, now there is a new Minister who has taken office with the new year, he should go round amongst the Maoris and explain his views and his policy to them. Ido not blame any particular Minister; perhaps the Maoris have been somewhat to blame themselves hitherto. I will not occupy the time of the meeting at any great length; I will allow others to bring the subjects before you. I will simply say that a number of Maoris who intended to be present here to-day have been unable to come, owing to a large slip in the river, which has prevented their coming. Paori Kurimate said : Major Kemp having opened the meeting, I will now bring before you the subjects for the meeting. First of all, there is the exterior boundary of the property of the Wanganui people ; they are boundaries of our ancestors, and have descended to us, and our desire is that the Parliament will confirm to us the land within these boundaries. You, however, will be aware of these boundaries, because they were made known to you by the Committee in 1880; they are given in the schedule to this document. The second subject is, that we wish the Native Committee to be confined to the Wanganui District only. Third, we have agreed to allow a steamer to be put on the Wanganui Eiver; this will be dealt with by the Committees. Fourth, the Committees will also deal with surveys of land belonging to the people. Fifth, the sales by the people of their lands will also be dealt with by the Committees. Sixth, the leases intended to be executed by the people are to be dealt with by the Committees. Seventh, the Committees are also to deal with the question of railway where it goes through land held under Maori title. Eighth, the Committees are to deal with the question of surveys within the boundaries of their tribes. These are the principal subjects, and the earnest request of the people is that these matters that have been brought before you to-day should be sanctioned by Parliament. [The schedule of the boundaries was then read over, and Paori resumed his place.] Mr. Ballance said : Friends of Wanganui, I have to repeat to you once again the great pleasure it has given me to meet you here on this occasion. Major Kemp has referred to the fact that lam the first Native Minister who has accepted an invitation to visit the people of the Wanganui Eiver. I think the practice is a good one, and I hope it will be repeated, and that in future Native Ministers will visit the people of Wanganui at their various settlements; they will then be able to ascertain the real wants and wishes and interests of the people, for I recognize how impossible it is for the people to assemble in the large towns, away from their different settlements, to wait upon Ministers. It has therefore given me special pleasure to be here to meet you on this occasion, and I should just like to say to you that the Premier of the colony would himself have liked to have been here with me, but the pressure of business prevented him. Mr. Stout takes as keen an interest in the welfare of the Native race as I do myself, or as keen an interest as any man in the colony. I should like to say this, too, for the Government, as a whole, that they are exceedingly anxious to establish good relations with the whole of the Native people. The Government feel that this can only be done by meeting the people and taking them into their confidence, for we feel that no one is so capable of understanding what is best for the people as the people themselves. It may be necessary, and is necessary, that in the enactment of laws for their welfare they should receive the assistance of Government, and the Government can often come to their assistance in administering the laws. We wish the people to understand that when laws are made they are not made for one race, but made for the people as a whole. I was exceedingly pleased to hear the sentiments expressed by Major Kemp with regard to the disposal of Native land, the more so as those sentiments are my own and have long been so. It is necessary that the land should be administered and disposed of for the benefit of the people, the owners of the land. The monopoly of the land is an injury to the people of both races, though it will benefit a few; but the laws are not made for the few but for all. The question, therefore, of supreme importance is how to get the land disposed of, that the greatest number of people may live by it and on it. Population brings prosperity, it is true, as Major Kemp has said, and the largest population means the greatest prosperity ; but there is one essential condition, and that is that the land shall not be held by the few; for in some countries we find that there is a large population, and the land is held by a few persons, the consequence being inevitable—a large proportion of the people are pauperized. Now, I should like to say, with regard to our own views upon the land question, that we desire that the people themselves should join with the Government in administering their lands for the welfare of both races. Before I have done I will show you, I think, how this can be accomplished. Now, there has been brought before me to-day a number of subjects—eight subjects —which seem to occupy the first place in your attention. The first refers to the external boundaries of the Wanganui District, and the second refers to the appointment of Native Committees—that is to say, that the Native Committee of Wanganui should be confined to the Wanganui District. I take it that these are one subject, not two, and that, when the district has been defined, the Committee shall confine its attention and its duties to that district. I agree with what Paori has said about having the boundaries of the district revised ; nothing has appeared to my mind more absurd than the fact that some of the members of this Committee are living at Otaki. W That connection have the people of Otaki with you in the disposal of your lands and the regulation of your affairs ? It is right, therefore, that the boundaries of the district should be revised, and I have the power under the law to make the necessary revision. I shall have the new district established, therefore, on my return to Wellington ; but I should like to say further with regard to it. I will first send you up a map containing the proposed boundaries of this district, and I shall let you settle the lines among yourselves, because you might have to make some revision. The great thing is to have only those in the district who are of one mind with regard to the disposal of their lands. As to the power to be given to the Native Committees, that is a very large question, and is a question that will have to be very carefully considered by the Government. I think the Committees may do a great deal of good in the ascertainment of title to land : and here I would like to say one thing with regard to the Native

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Land Court. I have recognized the great loss and inconvenience to which the Native people are put by the Native Land Courts sitting only in the large centres of population. I think, therefore, that it would be wiser that the Land Court should move about and hold its sittings more on the land where the title is to be investigated. I have, by representations made to the Judges, tried to urge upon them that they should hold their Land Courts in more convenient places for the people whose titles are to be ascertained. As to the relations between the Committee and the Land Court, I should like to make these as clear as possible. It may sometimes happen that the Committee, in ascertaining the title to land, may themselves—the members of the Committee—be interested in having the title ascertained in a given direction. It is right, therefore, that there should be appeal to a body above suspicion, who will have no interest in the question of title. Therefore, I think that, after the Committee has ascertained, the title, there should always be an appeal to the Land Court; and then it will be necessary, of course, that the Court should give legal sanction to the decisions of the Committee. You ought therefore to recognize that the Land Court still remains to decide ultimately the question of title amongst you. Now, with regard to the third subject introduced by Paori, I should like to say this: Paori has referred to the question of putting a steamer on the Wanganui Eiver. It is not for the Government to build steamers and put them on rivers, that is a question for private individuals, and I am glad to inform you that there are a number of people in Wanganui who are thinking of forming a company for building a steamer and placing her on the Wanganui Eiver. I have no doubt that many of you will be glad to assist in that enterprise, for it is one which will confer great benefits upon you all. There are difficulties in the way—not great difficulties, perhaps, but difficulties in the way of steamers passing up and down the river. These rapids will have to be made so as to allow the steamer to pass up and down ; and I think it is likely that the Government will come to their assistance and vote money for the improvement of these rapids. I trust we shall find you all assisting in this work. A steamer would give greatly-increased value to your lands, and it would make the Wanganui what it was intended to be—a great highway for the people into the interior; it would make it more convenient to get down to Wanganui and get up again. Your wool and your produce would be sent down at a cheaper rate, and you would be able to get up and down with much greater facility, and, I think, at a less expense, than by means of canoes. Now, with regard to the survey of the land—the fourth question —Paori thinks that the Committee should deal with this question, and I agree with him that the Committee should have a large control in the matter; but the greatest of all questions is the. question of money for the surveys. Will the Committee find the money ? No ;I do not think the Committee, in the first instance, can find the money for the surveys ; and I think it will be necessary, therefore, that the Government should come to their assistance, having some security that when this is done the cost of the survey shall be repaid from the proceeds of the land when it is disposed of. Now, with regard to the sales by the people and the leases of land, though these are put down as separate subjects, they are really only one. Paori thinks the Committee should deal with these questions, with the sales and with the ■leases. Well, now, I have certain views upon this question, which I will bring before you; and they differ somewhat from the views that have been expressed by Paori. I think the people themselves should have the principal control in the leasing and sale of their lands. That is the first principle that I would lay down; but I am not sure that a Committee over a very large district would be the best body to deal with this subject. And now I will tell you what I propose should be the legislation next session upon this subject. Last session, as you are aware, the Government determined to run a railway through this Island, and they knew that, if they fixed the railway, there was a probability that certain speculators would come and acquire from the Natives large blocks of land along the line of railway, to the injury of both the Natives and the Europeans. I would like just now to remove a wrong impression that has prevailed in the minds of some of you as to what we have done respecting this land. It has been said we have taken land along each side of the railway five miles in extent. That is a mistake ; we have not done anything of the kind. What the Government have done is this: they have taken in all the land that is likely to bo increased in value by the railways in the schedule to the Act. The whole of the King country is taken in along the line of the Wanganui Eiver, through Lake Taupo and Eangitikei. The extent of land in the schedule to the Act is 4,500,000 acres. Now, what has been done by the Bill is this: the Bill says that no private individual shall touch the land. The Bill does no more than that it saves the land to the owners. That land is absolutely the property of the Maoris, and more so than it was before. I also put in the Bill, when it was first introduced, a means of settling the land for the benefit of the owners, but it was thought better to hold over that portion of the Bill until the object had been carefully explained to the Native people. Now, what we propose is this : that, when the title to a block of land has been ascertained, the owners themselves of that particular block of land shall have the power of dealing with it. Much harm has arisen through some people who are put in the deed of title exercising rights for all, and to the great injury of the owners. For instance, in some cases there are ten people put in the grant, but there may be a hundred owners; and these ten people have exercised the right of ownership, selling the land sometimes and appropriating the money to their own uses. We propose for the future that the whole hundred people shall have a voice in saying how their land shall be leased and disposed of, and we shall carry out our object in this way : the hundred people (owners of the land) shall meet together and elect a Committee; this Committee shall remain in existence for two years, and at the end of that time the people shall have the right of appointing a fresh Committee. All dealings with the land shall be managed through that Committee. Now, in order that the land shall be sold and disposed of for the interest of both races, we propose to have a Board for a large district; that Board shall consist of three persons—a Commissioner appointed by the Government, and two persons elected or nominated. Now, this Board shall have the power of leasing and of selling all lands whenever the Committee wish the Board to do so, but not before then. The land shall be sold and leased as Crown lands are sold and leased; it shall be sold, as Major Kemp has expressed

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it, in small blocks. Where the land is fit for grazing purposes for sheep and cattle, it will be sold in small runs ; where it is fit for growing purposes, in small farms; where a township is to be, it will be sold in sections fit for a township : and the proceeds will be handed oyer to the people who own the land. Now, with regard to roads and surveys, we propose that, when a block of land is to be disposed of, the Committee of the block shall arrange with the Board how much shall go to surveys and how much shall go to roads ; and this money shall be appropriated out of the first proceeds. 1 may say a few words with regard to the difference between selling land and leasing land. I may tell you, first of all, what has been done on the West Coast. Certain reserves were set aside for Te Whiti and his people. Those reserves have been leased by the Government for a certain term— thirty years. At the present time the rents from those reserves amount to £7,000 a year, and the proceeds of those reserves are now enabling Titokowaru and his people to have their parties all over the country. The rents from those reserves, though only £7,000 a year at the present moment, will soon be £10,000 a year. I think, therefore, it is better for the interest of the people that they should lease their land rather than sell it. In the case of leasing their land it remains to them for ever, and they are enabled to live in ease and comfort. I have noticed with great regret that when land is sold the money is soon parted with, and the money and the land are gone too. How much is any one of you the better for any land you have sold at the present moment ? But where you have leased your land your rents are coming in year by year, and remain with you for ever; but the Government will give to you the- right to say whether you will sell or lease your lands, and assist you in carrying out whatever decision you may arrive at. Now, we have not exactly fixed upon this plan, but this at the present time is the intention of the Government regarding your lands. I should like, therefore, to have your mind upon this subject. We think that this is the best thing to do—what I have suggested; it enables the owners of the land to exercise the principal voice as to how their own land shall be disposed of, at the same time you get the assistance of the Government in enabling you to dispose of your land. The Government brings all the machinery of the law and their own power to assist you in carrying out your own decision. I think, if a Board were established, that the lines laid down for the District of Wanganui would be very convenient lines for a district in which one Board should exercise its functions. With regard to the election of Native members, it might be best perhaps if one of the members was elected by the General Committee —that is to say, the District Committee, and one by the people directly. Now, the powers of the Committee would be exercised in this way : if the two Native members said that a thing was not to be done or was to be done, it would not be done or done accordingly, but if one Native member agreed with the Commissioner then it should be done or not be done. In that way the majority would rule. You will see, then, that the power really rests with the Native people and their representatives. Now, I will say a few words with regard to the railways and roads through your lands. He must be a very ignorant person who would object to a railway or a road being taken through his land. All Europeans are anxious for railways and roads; that is the great trouble of the Government —Europeans clamouring for railways and roads where the Government have no money to make them. I think, therefore, the Natives should be very glad to welcome this railway through their land. Land which is worth now not more than five shillings an acre will be worth five pounds an acre when the railway runs through the land. I therefore appeal to all the owners of land and all the Native people to welcome and assist this railway in passing through their country. I have heard there are two or three obstructionists —wild men-—who are opposed to the passing of the railway through this country. I hope you will all use your influence to teach those people that they are opposing the interests not only of themselves but of the whole of the people in this district. We look to you to assist us in overcoming any obstruction. And here I would return my sincere thanks on behalf of the Government to Major Kemp and to Paori for the valuable assistance which they rendered in getting the survey for the railway through the country, Of course, I know that the assistance will be given in the future as in the past. Eespecting the land over which the railway passes I will say one word. The Government do not ask from you any land. If any of the owners of the land over which the railway passes are willing to give the land which is the site of the railway, two chains wide, the Government of course will receive that land and be thankful for the gift. The Government, of which lam a member, propose to treat the Native people just the same as they would Europeans. If they want land for the purpose of building the railway, and the people wish to be paid for it, the Government will pay for the land. The Government do not wish to take any land—not a single acre of land—without paying the fair value for that land. The only land they want is just sufficient for the railway to run upon—two chains, or three or four chains, or it sometimes may he a little more when it has to pass through cuttings, &c. I therefore wish you to understand that in the matter of this land the Government will act precisely with the Native owners as they would act with European owners. The land will be taken under the Act, and, when the title is ascertained, the value of the land will be found out by arbitration, and the money paid to the owners. I think I have now said all that is necessary with regard to the railways and the leasing of lands, but there are many other questions which I have not touched upon which you may desire to have some information about, and if you wish for further explanation I will give it. I have dealt sufficiently, I think, with the surveys, although Paori referred to an eighth subject. I have now to explain that my colleague, the Minister for Public Works, upon my recommendation, is desirous of affording the Native people an opportunity of taking small contracts on the railway; and it is proposed, therefore, that along the middle portion of the railway near Manganui-a-te-ao the survey be made, and small contracts given in such a way that the Native people may tender for them. The railway has been commenced at Te Awamutu and at Marton, and it is also the intention of the Government to commence at Manganui-a-te-ao. It is proposed to reach that point by means of canoes. If the steamer is built before, we should reach it by steamer. I have now explained to you what the Government intend doing with regard to the railway, and I feel sure you will all feel greatly satisfied that it is the intention of the Government to give you the opportunity of assisting to build this railway,

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which will lead, of course, to a large expenditure of money amongst you, and be a great benefit to you in that respect. Eeference has been made to the desire of the people to keep within the law. Upon this point I would like to say that if we take the Native people into our confidence the law will be such, I hope, that your actions and desires will be to keep it. Within the law is safety and prosperity ;no people can expect to succeed or prosper who break the law. In this respect I would refer to the action at the present time of Te Whiti on the West Coast. There was a Peace Preservation Act which prevented the Natives from moving about in large bodies, and gave Government large powers. This Act expired last year, and it is not the intention of the Government to revive it. The people on the West Coast shall be treated as any other people; as long as they keep the law they shall be protected; but if they break the law they shall be punished under the law. I do not object to their passing up and down the coast and holding meetings, so long as they keep within the bounds of the law. A law of repression, which prevents people from going about and pleasing themselves in their own way, is an act of tyranny if there is not the inclination on the part of the people themselves to break the law. I cannot say that I know exactly what are the intentions of Te Whiti, but it is sufficient that we judge him by his acts. The Government are powerful enough to preserve and uphold the law, and prevent outrages if they are committed, but w 7e shall wait until these acts are done before we bring the law into force. I think, of course, myself that Te Whiti is very foolish in spending the money 6f the people in the way that he is doing; but that is his business, not mine. I would like to refer to a question that has been much talked about, especially in the Waikato, of late. I refer to the Treaty of Waitangi. You are aware that Tawhiao lately paid a visit to Lord Derby, the Secretary of State for the Colonies. He told Lord Derby that the Treaty of Waitangi had been broken, and he asked Lord Derby to exercise his power and authority and enforce the provisions of that treaty. Lord Derby referred the question back to the Government of New Zealand for its consideration. Why did he do that ? Because he knew that he had no power to interfere with anything done in the colonj^. We have a Parliament of our own, and that Parliament is m this matter greater than Lord Derby and the Imperial Government. Any well-informed and honest European could have informed Tawhiao that his mission was entirely useless, that the laws affecting both races are not made by Lord Derby or by the English Parliament, but by the New Zealand Parliament. The result was that the petition was referred back to me for my consideration, and for such reply as I might make to it—rather it was referred back to the Governor, and he referred it to me, as Native Minister. That will show you how badly advised these people have been in going to England for the redress of their grievances. What do they ask with respect to the Treaty of Waitangi ? They ask that the lands shall be the property of the people; but we say that by the laws of the colony and under that treaty the lands are the property of the people. With regard to the land that was confiscated for rebellion, even the Government of the colony had nothing to do with that confiscation. It was confiscated by the British Governor at a time when the administration of the affairs of the Native people were in the hands of a Governor under the British Government, so that the Government and the Parliament of New Zealand are not even responsible for that. The reply, therefore, that we make is, that the provisions of the Treaty of Waitangi aro being kept by the Government and the Parliament of the colony, for not a single acre of land can be taken from the people unless they wish to sell it themselves. Tawhiao asked that the people should have a Government of their own under that treaty, but there cannot be two powers and two authorities in the same country. When we give the Borough Councils in large towns power to do certain things, those Councils are not more powerful thantthe Parliament of the colony. In giving to the people, therefore, the powers, to which I have referred—the electing of their own Committees, and leasing their own lands—we are carrying out the provisions of the Treaty of Waitangi. Then, you have your representatives in the New Zealand Parliament, and you are part of the Parliament yourselves and make your own laws. With regard to this question, there was a very respectable chief called Wi Katene, a chief of the Ngapuhi, who was greatly troubled upon the subject of Tawhiao's visit to England. Katene had formerly been a member of the House of Eepresentatives, and he knew a good deal about the ways of Parliament. He was not certain that Tawhiao was doing right, so he sent a letter to the Governor asking the Governor to give his opinion on this question. The Governor was asked to inform him whether he thought that there was any use in Tawhiao's visit to England. The Governor referred the letter to myself, and I made a reply such as I have told you to-day. Katene did not act altogether fairly by me with that letter. He published his letter in the Koromako, but did not publish my reply. To sum up on this question, I would say that you must look to the Parliament to make your laws, and you must look to the Government to assist you in bringing them before the Parliament. There is no other authority from which you can receive anything. It is not my business to refer to that part of Tawhiao's visit in which he was feasted and treated.with great kindness by the people of England. There are some chiefs that would not like to be treated in that way, it destroys somewhat of their independence, but this is no affair of mine. I have dealt with the two aspects of the question of public importance which relate to the subject of Tawhiao's visit to England. I have thought a good deal over that question, and I have come to this conclusion: that it is not so much for the Government to interfere as for you to consider yourselves what shall be done. I therefore think that that subject can best be dealt with by your own Committee, the Committee of which Paori is chairman, so that, when any person comes to me for liberty to prospect the country, I intend in future to refer them to the Committee. I think now I have spoken upon most of the questions of most immediate importance, but I may have omitted many subjects which I shall be glad to explain when they are brought to my notice. Einally, I would say that it is tho intention of the Government to legislate only for the benefit of the whole people. The Government are not influenced by private individuals in those questions affecting the lands of tho Native people. We are not a Government that is to be influenced by the land-shark ; therefore, when we obtain the opinions of you with regard to questions affectino- your lands, we shall act upon them solely for your own benefit. We shall consult you and ask your

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opinion in all parts of the Island with regard to these questions before we proceed to deal with them. It is my intention to visit the people in the various parts of the Island, when these subjects will be brought before them, seeing that our desire is to be guided largely jay the opinion of the people themselves. I have done for the present. Major Kemp said : I arise to express on behalf of the meeting the pleasure afforded us by your speech, and also to ask you to have a road made from here to Murimotu, a distance of about twentyfive miles, and then without any difficulty a steamer could bring up the material for the railway, iron and so forth, and it could be taken over from here to Murimotu. This road would benefit another settlement as well as this one, a settlement called Iruharama, about three miles distant. As far as Te Whiti is concerned there is no fear that I will ever join with him. I tell you, as I told Mr. Bryce before, that I would never have anything to do with him. With regard to the King, before they left for England, Topia came to me and asked me about their visit, and I said, " Well, your visit will have no result whatever, because a Government has been given to this Island by the Queen, and to that Government you will have to refer." The Ngapuhis also came round and asked me to sign a petition. Almost every one in other places had signed the petition; they came here, but we refused to sign. There were two parties who went to England, the Ngapuhirepresentatives and Tawhiao. I said with regard to the Ngapuhi representatives that went home to England that their visit would have no result. I told them that their proper process was for the whole of the people of the land to apply to the Government of New Zealand and get their support and assistance, and that might have some effect. As it is, neither of their missions has been successful. With reference to the taking of land on each side of the railway for a distance of five miles, that was an idea of mine. I have thought that the land along the railway, as soon as it became valuable, would be obtained by speculators who would get it away from the Maoris, and it would be better if it were placed in the hands of the Government, together with a Committee. I think that the Committee should be the child of the Government, and the Government should be in the place of a parent. They could have full management of all sales and leases. It has always been said that the Governor was the protector of the colony and the protector of the people. Ido not think that it would be good to leave the management of the lands with the Committees alone. Ido not think that they would be able to carry it out properly, but I think that they should be assisted by the Government and the law, in case they allow lands to be alienated altogether. If the Government and the Committee carry on the management together, whenever the Committee desired to sell the land the Government could carry out the details, but I do not think it would be advisable to leave the management with the Maoris only. I am afraid if it is left to a Board of Maoris that they might be influenced by payments of money —they might be bribed, in fact —and by that means large speculators would get hold of the land, and they would reap the benefit of its being cut up again and sold in small blocks. I have always endeavoured to keep my people and my lands within the law. I have never listened to Te Whiti or any one else. This colony has been branded with the brand of the Queen, and who can wash off the brand. It has been said that the children of Japhet shall enter into the tents of Shem. With regard to the steamer, if- I were a man of means I would certainly pay half the cost of the steamer, but, as I am a poor man, I shall have to leave it to the company. I never allow myself to be influenced by any other Maoris. Every one joined the King ; I held myself aloof from him. Whenever they have come to me I have received them with suspicion ; I never say to them that they are doing w Trong ; I just keep my thoughts to myself. If the King were to come to speak to me I should simply look at him; I reserve what I have to say for my people only, and for the Government. I only contend with the Government, and if you say that the land is not to be cut up into small blocks, but is to be sold as it has been hitherto, I should have nothing to say; but you agree with me that the land should be cut up and sold in small quantities for the benefit of the people. As an -illustration of the necessity for a road between here and Murimotu, I may say that the Murimotu land is mine, and the wool produced at Murimotu is all taken via Napier, whereas if there were a road this way it would all come down here, and be taken in the steamer to Wanganui. I will give every assistance to the steamer, and if there is any obstruction I shall do my best to overcome it, and I have no reason to believe that I shall not be successful. Hakaria. (a Koriniti chief) said : With regard to the steamer, this is for you (Kemp) and your people. I have nothing to do with it. What I want is the railway. I should like to see the railway commenced at Marton as soon as possible. I am interested in the Te Kopua Block—that is, in a portion of it. I will go on to Te Kopua Block and wait there until the railway is made as far as that from Marton. Poari Kuramate said: You, Hakaria, have obtained your wish because the railway has been commenced. I wish now to thank the Minister for coming here to listen to what we have to say. Hitherto our thoughts remained in ourselves. We have not had an opportunity of expressing them. You (Mr. Ballance) have said that you think it best for the people themselves to manage their land. I think it would be best for the Committee to deal with the questions of title to land or any disputes that may take place between the people. This is what I have always tried to impress on the people whenever any difficulties occur. With regard to the lands along the railway, I think that they should be surveyed as soon as possible, and after that further arrangements may be made with regard to their management. The present Native Committee is a Committee for the whole people, and not to deal with private interests. It has been appointed under the Native Committees Act, and lam Chairman. With regard to the Treaty of Waitangi, five hundred Natives of this Island tendered their submission to the Queen at the time the treaty was made. I think that the Treaty of Waitangi has been fully carried out. The Queen promised reserves, and to the chiefs their chieftainships and the rights to their land, and they have always had them. Hoi said she simply stood up to say that when Hakaria was going to Te Kopua to wait for the railway she was going there too. Bini (a Jerusalem chief) said : There have been many Governments, but none have come here

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before you; some are dead, and some have fallen. You (the Government) are their successors. Your coming here has given pleasure to all the people, so that both races ■will bow down to you. I am loyal to the Queen, and have always been since 1862. You have now come here to make all matters right, that is why I wish to speak to you. You said both races are to be treated alike. The Maoris of this river have hitherto been governed by a Council, but you say now that both races are to come under one Government. I have nothing to say with regard to the law that you have already arranged. There are two people living here, one blind and the other can see ; a letter arrives for the blind man and also for the one that can see. The blind man could not read his, but handed it to the man who could see to read it to him. The man who could see added to the letter, and the blind man, believing the letter, agreed to the contents of it. The blind man represents the Maoris, the man who saw was the European, the letter written to them represents the law. I ask you to have the laws put into Maori so that the Maoris can understand them. I have heard that the books of the old laws have been lost. Whakaheirangi said : I salute you, Mr. Ballance, as the Minister who has accepted the invitation of the tribes of Wanganui. You came here on the 7th day of January. I have heard your speech. It has given me great pleasure. I will not greet you further, but go to the subject of the exterior boundaries. I have not seen any Europeans coma within the boundary for the purpose of stealing. If they did so I should arrest them and take away their property. My great desire is that the land owned by me within the exterior boundary should be surveyed. I cannot wait for the appointment of a Committee, because things might happen in the meantime. My land might be stolen. Te Peehi said : I salute you, Mr. Ballance, and thank you for coming here. I wish to speak upon a matter which you mentioned in your speech, namely, the road from Waimarino to Mangonui-a-te-ao. I was very pleased to hear you say that the road would be made. I only wish you to leave this matter in my hands, and allow me to go back to my people and discuss the matter with them. The reason I ask is that when the explorations were going on for the railway obstruction was shown, and I was instrumental in removing the obstruction. I think, therefore, that you should allow me to go back to my people and discuss this matter with them, and come here and let you know the result. That is all I have to speak to you about. Major Kemp produced a surveyor's theodolite and case of drawing instruments, and said : The Government has charge of surveys and of sales in conjunction with the Committees. I have come to the conclusion that, for the good of both races, they should induce a large population to settle in the country. Ido not think it would be a good thing for the country to be occupied by the sheep of large landholders. Ido not think it would be a good thing to have so many cattle running on large holdings either. Now that, in this new year, a new Ministry has come to us, I say that what we require is population. We want permanent settlers—Europeans to settle among us permanently. If the land is used for grazing purposes only, people will not remain here; they will go away to England and other places. This (the theodolite) was bought as a sign that I have kept within the law, and J am in favour of settlement, to show that I want the land to be covered with people—not with cattle or sheep. As you have carried out all my wishes, this is for you ; we will go and take the bearings together. You are the parents and these are the children ; and I hope that any differences that may occur will be dealt with by you and the Committees, and, if you cannot settle them satisfactorily, Ido not know what else can be done. I hope you will consider all the grievances that the people suffered during the late administration. I have nothing to do with Te Whiti. I turn to Europeans; this (touching the theodolite) is my European. I hope that you will not consent to any surveys or anything being done in lands except through the Committee. Hitherto it has been the practice for a private individual to have a survey made without the knowledge of the people— to have it made clandestinely. You can use the Committee to hurry matters on, and get the surveys made speedily. I hope you will not consider that the matters that have been brought before you are unimportant; they are matters concerning only the people here, not outsiders ; we consider them of great importance. With reference to the railway, I think that wherever there is a station erected a township should be laid off, and this should be managed by the Government and the Committee. No private speculator should be allowed to obtain land near the railway. The Government and the Committee should have the management of the lands near the railway. The Governor is the highest person in the place, and he should be at the head. I mentioned to you before that I thought that the Governor and the Commissioner should have charge of the country within five miles of the railway. I put five miles as the limit in case private speculators should step in and obtain land from the Maoris. All the matters of importance have been brought before you and satisfactorily settled this morning. It only now remains for me to repeat my request to you to have the road made from Banana to Murimotu. If the steamer goes up the river, another road could be made from Eetaruke across, and also one from Mangonui-a-te-ao; there are some very shallow places in the river above. With reference to prospecting, lam of opinion that it should go on. Ido not think that gold should be allowed to remain hidden in the ground. I think also that, wherever there is coal, it should be obtained, and that the timber of large totaras and other timber should be utilized. If there were gold here I should invite the Europeans to come and dig it as soon as possible. If Ngatai were here I should advise him to have the gold prospected for at once, or, if Eangitu were here, I should advise him so, too. I don't think that gold should be allowed to rot under. We should do all this in order to increase the prosperity of the Town of Wanganui. That is all I have to say. Here is my devil (the theodolite). Winiata said: I come from Manganui-a-te-ao, and I was one of those who assisted in getting the prospectors for the railway. The railway passes the settlement of Manganui-a-te-ao about five miles distant from it. It is quite true what you say that opposition was offered by a few persons in our locality to the railway and with regard to the road that you say you wish to make to Waimarino. I think, with the last speaker, who came from Manganui-a-te-ao, that the matter should be left to us ; we will discuss it with our people, and let you know our reply. That is all I have to say.

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The meeting then adjourned for dinner, and on resuming, Aperaniko Taiawhao, having given the usual salutations, said he had been a monitor of the Church, since a lad. It was not the Government who had put a weapon in his hands to strike his relatives with ; he did it himself to retain his independence. The Government was not the cause of the fight at Moutoa, nor was he the cause himself. He became a servant of the Government, being made a Magistrate, and afterwards he was made a captain, the Government having formed a Native contingent, and Kemp and he were in command for five years. When the sky was clear they returned to their homes, he returning to his duties as Magistrate and monitor. He did so for years, and Kemp went to Tongariro and stopped his Europeans, and in consequence of that he (Aperaniko) had had no duties to perform for five years. Kemp and his Council took all the duties. He told this to the Government, and hoped they would take it into their consideration. Major Kemp followed by saying that all the subjects in which they were interested, and for which the Native Minister was invited, had been satisfactorily settled except one in which he was personally interested, and which he asked should be carried out, and that was the road from Banana to Murimotu. The Government had already spent money in surveying it, and the Natives did work on the road. It was hardly more than a track, but had always been used by the Natives. At present it followed the range, but if it was passable for vehicles wool would be brought to Banana instead of being taken to Napier. He asked the Minister to have the road made passable in order to benefit the district generally. It could be made use of in conveying railway material to the interior, because when it reached the plains it was level until the line was reached. Mr. Ballance then rose and replied to the various speeches made. He said: I have listened with great attention to the speeches which have been made to-day, and I think I am fully informed upon the various subjects which have been brought before me. I must say that they have been presented with great clearness and moderation. There is nothing objectionable that has been said to-day by any of the chiefs that have spoken; Ido not say that all can be granted, but of course there will be things said that will receive consideration and that perhaps will have to be refused. I believe, however, that on the main questions we are agreed. Major Kemp, I think, hardly understood my reference to the local Committees appointed by the owners of the land. I did not mean that these Committees should have power to dispose of their land in large blocks. Their duty would be to say when they wished their land sold, and, when they came to that conclusion, it would be for the Board on which the Natives would be represented to sell their lands in accordance with the laws of the colony. They would not have the power to sell the lands in large blocks to speculators, the law would prevent that. Their land would be sold in accordance with laws which would be fairly understood by the whole of the people : those laws would not differ in different districts, but the same law would apply over the whole colony. The danger therefore anticipated by Major Kemp need not be apprehended. I should like to say (enforcing what I said before as to the power of the people to regulate their own affairs under the laws of the colony) that, shortly before Tawhiao went to England, he and the leading chiefs of the Waikato signed a petition to the Government to prevent the sale of drink in the King country. That petition was immediately answered by the Government, and a Proclamation was issued in accordance with the petition prohibiting the sale of drink throughout the whole length and breadth of the King country. You will see, therefore, that the laws of the colony are sufficient in most instances if they are only applied and asked for. Where they are not sufficient,' then, on ascertaining the wants of the people, the laws can be made sufficient. I would like to say one word with regard to the steamer. A short time ago a petition came from Father Soulas, of Jerusalem, asking for the establishment of a mail between Wanganui and Jerusalem and the intervening settlements. That request was granted, and the mail is now running between Wanganui and Jerusalem, delivering letters at all the various settlements as they go up and down. The mail, I think, now goes once a fortnight. If the steamers are put upon the river I have no doubt we shall be able to establish a weekly mail, and that will be a still greater convenience to the people living in the different settlements. Hakaria referred to the railway leaving Marton, and said that he desired that the railway should be commenced immediately. In answer to that, the survey is being pushed on with great energy, and we hope, in the course of two months or so, to be able to accept the first tenders, and about the same time we hope to receive tenders for the portion of the line commencing at Te Awamutu. I was pleased to hear the reference which was made by Peehi and Winiata to the road from Manganui-te-ao to the railway-line. I understood from both those chiefs that they were favourable not only to the railway but to the construction of a road from the railway to the Wanganui Biver; but they desired to consult their people before they came to any decision with regard to the road. That was a very reasonable request. Now, I wish to ask them to call their people together and discuss the matter, and send me down a letter giving me the result of the meeting. I hope they will not lose any time, as our desire is to hasten the construction cf the railway in every possible and conceivable way. Aperaniko has referred to his services rendered to the -colony in various capacities. I was very much pleased to hear him recounting his services in conjunction with Major Kemp. It has always given me great pleasure to hear old chiefs recounting the deeds they have done on behalf of the Government of the colony. Aperaniko asks that his services shall not be forgotten. I can only reply that they are not forgotten, and shall not be forgotten. Major Kemp has referred to the surveys of Native lands, and he thinks that the surveys should be dene through the Committees. I think the proposal is a very good one, and that the Committees should be asked to advise with regard to land going through the Court. He also referred to townships established on the lines of railway, on Native lands, and of course I think that the Natives themselves should have a large voice in saying where townships should be upon land of their own, and I will bring that question before my colleague, the Minister for Public Works, who will have this question under his control. Now I will refer to the subject which Major Kemp has referred to, and one which is of great importance to this settlement, the question of the construction of a road from Banana to Murimotu. I may say that: I am very anxious for the making of that road, so that the produce of Murimotu may be

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taken to Banana and down the Wanganui Eiver. It is a matter which will involve the expenditure of a considerable amount of money, and I cannot give any certain promise upon the subject. But this I will do : I will press the subject on the attention of the Minister for Public Works, and show the great importance of the road in getting the produce away from the interior. I recognize all that Major Kemp has said about the road, its great importance to this district, and in fact to the colony at large, and, if the money is available, I have no doubt that the road will be shortly commenced; at least nothing shall be wanting on my part personally to urge the matter of the road on the attention of the Government. That is all I can say upon the point. Major Kemp may depend upon it that he will have in myself an advocate for the construction of the road. Now, I think I have put before you, and discussed without reservation, all the important questions which have been brought under my notice to-day. I have given you my mind unreservedly upon the various subjects, and, in return, I would ask you, when any questions arise which you do not clearly understand, to at once communicate with me on the subject. I can assure you that every matter, whether it is of great or small importance, shall receive my attention, and you shall receive a reply respecting it. I again thank you for the words which you have spoken, and for the friendly feelings expressed towards myself and the Government. After this, Honinui made an application for a flag, which was granted by the Native Minister. Bird spoke of a promise made by Sir Donald McLean, some years back, that a place should be built in Wanganui for the Natives to live in when they went to town, and, in replying to a question as to whether it could now be granted, Mr. Ballance said that, if Eini would write to him, he would make inquiry as to what had been promised, and see if it could be fulfilled. Bangihuhatau asked that a mail service should be instituted from Manganui-a-te-ao to Taupo, and, in reply, Mr. Ballance expressed the hope that shortly it would be established, as he admitted its importance. This concluded the business. On Friday, 9th January, 1885, the Native Minister and party proceeded up the river from Banana to Jerusalem, or Kawaeroa. After the usual welcome by the Natives assembled, Tohiora said : This settlement has always been occupied by the Queen's Natives. Hori Kingi came here in search of recruits for the Native Contingent. This sword was presented to me by the Queen for personal bravery against her enemies. Imu Matera said : I express my pleasure at your arrival here to carry out the wishes and desires of the Natives. You come here as a strange individual to marry your policy to the policy of the Natives. All the tribes of Wanganui are pleased at your having come here, and express their pleasure at your doing so. You have come here to ascertain the views of Major Kemp and the views of the Natives. We cannot sufficiently express our pleasure at your having come here. This settlement has always been occupied by Maoris loyal to the Queen. The people of this pa fought against the Hauhaus, and prevented them from advancing on the European population. Now our priests have come here to teach and educate us, and to educate our children in the way in which . they ought to go. Mr. Ballance said : It has given me great pleasure to meet the people and chiefs of Jerusalem on the present occasion. I have often heard of the loyalty of the people of Jerusalem to the Queen, and therefore it gives me a double pleasure to meet you. I have also heard of the prosperity of this settlement. You have referred to Father Soulas's presence amongst you. I know of one service which he has lately rendered to you, the people of Jerusalem. He applied to the Government for a mail between Wanganui and this place, and I had great pleasure, after making inquiry, to grant the request: it is the highest place on the river at which letters are delivered. I have also heard of the good he is doing among the people. I hope the people will support him in the work he is performing. I wish the settlement of Jerusalem increased prosperity in the future, and any service that I can render to you I shall be pleased to render. The Native Minister then went on to Pipiriki, where he was addressed by Earaetinai, who said : Salutations to you, my friend. lam a bad man ;I am called a wild man. I have fought against you; I was your enemy. After the days of Te Kooti, I stand in your presence to-day, having given up fighting and my adherence to Te Kooti. For the future I will be loyal to you and to the Queen. Salutations to you, as the saviour of the people and the land, Whether you are successful or not in saving the land, I salute you. Bangitauera said: Salutations to you, from the days of old down to the present time. Salutations to you, the saviour of the people, and greeting to you on your visit in response to the invitation of the people. It has been said that you will save the people and the land. Salutations to you. You are a stranger to this place, and the land is strange to you. It is out of love for you that your friends have sent an invitation to you to come here, that you might benefit the poor and the indigent. Eaeoroto said : I also would like to say a few words to you. This is my settlement. Ido not live at Banana, although I come from there. These two who have just spoken are the only remaining ones of my relations. All the rest were killed during the war ; they were Hauhaus. Both my parents are dead, and we have been deprived of a great portion of our land by others, who have stolen it from us. It was an assurance from Kemp that he would restore to us all our land that induced us to leave the Hauhaus and give in our submission to the Queen. I then asked Kemp to give us some token from the Queen —that is, I asked for a flag similar to the one flying here. I hope, now you have arrived here, that you will give me a token from the Queen- —that is to say, a flag like this. This flag does not belong to us; it is only borrowed for the occasion. You see here all that remain of us ; hundreds of us were killed at the different fights, at Moutoa and other places. Other tribes are coming and surveying our lands, and we ask you to defend us from them. All I have to say, in conclusion, is that we, the remnant of battles in former days, are very pleased to see you here to-day. 2—G. 1.

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Turahoe said : The last speaker spoke truly with regard to the flag that is flying here, and I repeat his request that you will supply us with one, that it may be known that we are loyal to the Queen; that she may be for the future our benefactress, and that we may have the protection of God, whose servant she is. Mr. Ballance, in reply, said : My friends, the people of Pipiriki, I am glad to meet you here and receive the expression of your friendly sentiments. I have heard what you have said regarding the past, and also with regard to the future. I think the past should be forgotten, and that in the future we should be friends. This is one of the reasons lam here to-day—to see the people, and to express my friendship for them. As Native Minister it is my duty to assist, to the best of my ability, all those who are loyal to the Queen. You have expressed your loyalty, and that is sufficient for me. The request to have a flag in token of your loyalty is a very reasonable and proper one, and I shall have great pleasure, on my return to Wellington, in sending you one as a token of our friendship. An expression has been made by Karaetinai about being a wild man. I think it is only a figure of speech. Whatever he may have been in the past, he does not look like a wild man now; the reason being, no doubt, that he is friendly to the Queen. My friends, I wish you to prosper ; I shall be happy to assist to insure that prosperity in the future. You have all seen what war has brought you to. You are few in numbers ; but for war you might have been strong to-day. There is time yet to strengthen your position by living in friendship with the Government. The Government is strong enough to insure justice to all, and will take care in the matter of the Maoris to see that justice is done. The Native Minister, after some conversation with the principal Natives, then returned to Wanganui.

Notes of a Meeting between the Hon. Mr. Ballance and Te Kooti and his People at Kihikihi, on the 3rd February, 1885. Te Kooti: Welcome, friend, welcome. Although every one else has remained away, welcome to you who have come, the person who takes care of the land and of the people; the person who Saves from trouble the sinful man and the wicked man. Come and spread good over the people who are evil, over the whole earth. [Te Kooti and his people here sung a song, and Te Kooti presented the Native Minister with a dogskin mat and a whalebone mere.] Mr. Ballance : Te Kooti and friends, —I thank you for your kind expression towards me to-night. I know that your words are good, and I take it that your heart is with your words. When men speak good of others they should not entertain evil in their hearts. I therefore believe, from the way you have expressed yourself to-night, that you entertain nothing towards the Government and towards the Queen but friendly and loyal feelings. The Government of the colony is great enough to shelter all the people of the colony, to protect them, and to defend their land and their liberty and their lives. Some time ago my predecessor extended an amnesty and forgiveness to Te Kooti and to others who had committed offences in the eyes of the law. To-night I register that amnesty. In this respect one Government does not undo what the previous Government has done. The forgiveness was complete, the pardon was also complete. We therefore expect that in the future Te Kooti and the Government will understand each other, and we shall expect loyalty from Te Kooti and his friends. His words to-night, as well as the presents which I accept, are a pledge of loyalty to the Government. The Government and the institutions of the colony allow the fullest latitude to all the people of the colony to do what they please, so long as they do not injure others and break the law. You may preserve your own institutions and your own religion intact. We have no right to, and we do not, interfere with you in the exercise of these rights. It is our duty to defend you and to protect you, and to make no distinction between you and the rest of the Native people or the Europeans of the colony. It is my earnest desire that in future we shall all be one people—that is to say, that we shall live together in peace with our neighbours and cultivate our own lands, without interference from others. If you have any grievances you have only to make them known and the Government will redress them. It is my duty as Native Minister to listen to every grievance, and, if possible, to remove it, and place you in a position so that your rights will not be invaded. In addition to the friendship which has been expressed to the Government and to myself as the representative of the Government, I hope to hear, before this meeting is ended, the expression of your views upon all those subjects to which I have referred. I am unreserved in my speech, and I hope you will also be unreserved in your speech. I think it best to be candid with you and tell you what I mean. I shall not speak words to you and entertain sentiments different to the words. Again I thank you for your expression of good will, and hope now that you will express your views openly. Te Bangihiroa, of Tarawera, said : May you and your assistant enjoy good health, Mr. Ballance; you who occupy the place that Mr. Bryce occupied to carry out the laws of the colony of New Zealand. My word to you, in reply to your suggestion that we should talk about the lands, is this : I have something to say about the land which Mr. Bryce gave to us, known as Orakau. The piece which was given to us is the same as if it were out at sea —that is, it is under water, and we would like to have a piece given to us inland in the vicinity of Orakau, in the same place, but not in the same position. Am lan eel that I should have been placed by Mr. Bryce in the water to reside ? We have heard what you have said about your love to the people, and carrying out the laws and showing affection for them with regard to their lands, and we would ask you now that you would give us some land at Orakau —that is, dry land. That is the block of land that I want to speak to you about to-night. That is, the block of land that the Government promised to give to us, was 266 acres altogether. Now, I ask that you give us the whole of it, including the portion of the Government land where the blockhouse at Orakau now stands—about forty acres, more or less. My only means of subsistence that I have in the Waikato is through your affection towards me. The only land that I have a right to reside on in the Waikato is the land which has been given to

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me by you, That is why I think lam right in asking you now to take me out of the swamp at Orakau, and to put me on to the dry land. Tv Takangahau, of Uriwera, seconded the request of the previous speaker, that some dry Land might be given them, instead of the swamp at Orakau. Te Puri and Horopapera, after greeting the Minister, also requested that dry land might be given to them at Orakau. Wineti Hipirimi said that he was a lame person, and could not be expected to swim to his land, and preferred the same request as the preceding speakers. Timoti and Matui, both of Ngatiporou, made the same request. Te Bangihiroa said: I refer now to a remark that you made, that the Government have no wish to interfere with the Maori religion. During the time that I was travelling, in accordance with the Amnesty Act, instituted by Mr. Bryce, I went over to Heretaunga, and I went to Wairoa, which is in the district of Hawke's Bay. There were 220 of my party. We found that some of the people of the place had built apa to fight me—to oppose me —but I paid no attention to that pa, because I knew that I was going in accordance with the law, and the law is supposed to be as a parent over all people. The people of Te Wairoa presented guns at us with the intention of shooting us. This is a question of mine to the Native Minister with regard to people who are travelling about in accordance with law and in accordance with religion that is in existence in the Islands, and to the statement of the Government that Te Kooti should not be allowed to travel all over the country. Te Kooti agreed to the request and he would not go to Te Wairoa. I wish you to understand that I intend to go to Wairoa in the coming January. I shall go in accordance with the law. The only canoe that I shall make use of to convey me to Wairoa will be the law. The paddlers of that canoe are affection, the making of one, and religion. I wish the Native Minister to make it known within the Hawke's Bay District, in order that the people of that district may not cause trouble when I go there. Te Bito ote Bangi (alias Te Eapatu), of Ngatikahunu, said: Greeting to you, the person who has been appointed to office during a season of peace. I will tell you what my desires are. My desire during the year that has just passed was that Te Kooti should pay a visit to the East Coast and to Te Wairoa. In consequence of the views of some of the chiefs who sent petitions to the Government he was not allowed to go there. I myself sent a letter to you during the month of November last. I said to you in my letter, "Allow Te Kooti to go to Te Wairoa." But, in accordance with the way in which you looked upon those letters which have been sent to you by those who bore ill-will to him, he was restrained from going there; but now that I have seen you and you have seen me, and as you are the Native Minister, I say this word to you : I wish you to consider the matter and to allow him to go during this year. I think that you—the Government — should be his assistant and protect him, and see that no harm comes to him. If you, or somebody representing the law, accompanied him, none of the people who have ill-feeling against him would have power to molest him. There are chiefs at Heretaunga and Te Wairoa who have different feelings regarding this matter, but they would have no effect if you would allow somebody connected with the law to accompany him. The reason they would have no power would be because the supreme power rests with the Government. Their power would be subservient to the Government. Mr. Ballance : I have heard what you have all said with regard to the land at Orakau. You have asked that you should not be put on the water. I have made inquiries about this matter and ascertained that the land is not fit for settlement, in consequence of its being liable to be flooded. I hear that there is but a very small portion of it dry land, and that nearly the whole of it is flooded at a particular time of the year. I think there must have been some mistake in giving you this land: it could not have been the intention of the Government to give you land which was generally covered with water to reside upon. I think, therefore, the request that you have made is a reasonable one. I will make further inquiry into the matter, and see and get sufficient dry land for you to reside upon. I have not inquired into the particular block that you have asked for —that is, where the blockhouse stands. Ido not know whether the Government have it at their disposal to give to you ; but I will see that you get land either there or somewhere else. I shall make inquiry into this matter, and be able, perhaps, to inform you before I leave Kihikihi as to the land which may be available. I hope you are all satisfied with regard to that. I will now pass on to the other subject which has been referred to —the letter which I sent asking Te Kooti not to go to the East Coast. Tv Takangahau said, quoting my own words, that the Government have no wish to interfere with the Maori religion. If you will read that letter again you will see that it did not prohibit Te Kooti and his people from visiting the East Coast. That letter simply contained advice that it would be better for yourselves in the existing state of feeling not to visit the East Coast at the present time. The Government had no objection, and have none now T, to your visiting the East Coast. It has been rightly said that it is the duty of the Government to protect all who are acting in accordance with the law. That is perfectly true, but the Government have not got it in their power to prevent a bad man taking a gun and shooting some of you. It was in order to prevent harm from coming to yourselves that I wrote that letter asking that you should not go at the present time. There is a sore and bitter feeling amongst some of the people on the East Coast, who do not forget the past; and I thought it better that you should remain here for some time until that bitter feeling had passed away. Time heals all wounds, and in a few years it is probable that the people|of Te Wairoa, who fortified their pa and took guns and threatened you, will have forgotten all that took place a few years ago. You have said that it is the duty of the Government to protect you, and I admit that it is the duty of the Government to protect you; therefore as far as the Government can protect you it will do so in the exercise of your religion and the exercise of your liberty. Only the Government may still advise you in these matters. If they find that harm is likely to ensue from this visit the Government will tell you of it, but they will not interfere with the exercise of your liberty. It will be a matter left entirely with yourselves. Now, with regard to the Government action : the Government will advise these people at Wairoa not to interfere with you

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so long as you do not interfere with them. "When I said that the Government would protect you in the exercise of your religion I meant what I said. So far as the arm of the Government will stretch they will try to protect you, and they will advise all others not to interfere ; but if they see that danger is threatening any of you the Government is bound to tell you. I was glad to hear the sentiments that were expressed by Tv Takangah.au that the object of your people in going to the East Coast was affection, and the making of the people of one, and religion. Those objects are lawful. I am sure when the people of the East Coast know your intentions that they will allow you to come in peace and to return in peace. I hope therefore that' you will not misunderstand me—the Government did not interfere with your liberty, but only offered you advice when they thought that danger was threatening you. I think now that I have dealt with all the subjects that you have introduced, and I hope that I have dealt with them fully. What you have said is very good, and I have been very much pleased to hear it. Te Kooti: The reason of my expression of good feeling to you is that lam a person who has been brought out of trouble. The Queen is the ruler over all the Islands, the Governor is the ruler over this Island. Mr. Bryce took my hat off my head. Mr. Bryce and Mr. Wilkinson were delighted at what had been done in order that I might not return to my old ways. This is you during the present time telling me to remain. I agree to it. I told you that I was going to Te Wairoa. Your advice to me to remain was good. You have been privileged by the Almighty that your action be good to the children, and also to the land. They are still asking me to go over there (to the East Coast) during next year. The road by which lam supposed to go is the road that has been laid down by Mr. Bryce, and your word to me, and affection, and the making of one, and Christianity. This is an expression of good will towards you. Go away, but do not forget me. Mr. Ballance: Now I have heard what you have all said, and I think you have no more grievances to bring before me. I receive Te Kooti's expressions of good will, and Ido not doubt their sincerity. I will not forget Te Kooti, and if I see evil impending I will let him know. What will be said to him will be in the way of advice, if any advice is needed. While Te Kooti keeps the contract that was made between him and Mr. Bryce the Government will be his friend, and they will allow him the right to exercise his freedom in his own way. I think that I have said all that I intend to say with regard to it, and I think you understand my views. I am sure you will not expect me to say any more on the present occasion.

Notes of a Meeting between the Hon. Mr. Ballance and the Natives at the Public Hall at Kihikihi, on the 4th February, 1885. Wahanui, who spoke first, said : This is the time for the welcome to the Native Minister, who has arrived amongst us, and to talk to him about matters concerning our lands. Taonui : Welcome, greeting to you; you who have come to see us. It is well that you should come to see us that we may hear from you the policy that you intend to carry out during the present time, and also hear what you have to say regarding the land and the people. Welcome to this place. Welcome to you, the person who has been appointed as Minister for the Native race.. This is the way in which we intend to welcome you. Greeting. Salutation. Greeting to you, who are now seen by us for the first time. This is all I have to say to you in the way of welcome. Hopa te Bangianini: Welcome to you, my younger brother. The reason I address you is because I am the karaka tree that first grew in this Island —that is, I was here before the Europeans came. Come and see us, and tell us what your policy is, whether for good or bad. I have no other person to go to except the Queen in England, who is represented by yourself, as you sit there. You are the person who points out the Queen's policy. I salute you. Welcome. You are known as the Native Minister, therefore I welcome you as such. Hitiri te Pairata: Salutations to you, the Minister. You are known as the Minister for the Natives. Welcome. Although one person of note may fall down, another rises in his place. That is why we welcome you now. Come, that you may see the Native people. I have a great deal to say, but it is all embodied in the one word " love." Aforo te Taratutu : You have been baptized in two waters, as you come to tell us the truth. Welcome, so that we can see each other. We have an old proverb that says, " When one person of rank passes away another one is there to take his place." Now, you stand in the position of a person of rank. You have taken the place of one who has passed away (Mr. Bryce). All I have to say to you is " Welcome." Te Hoti Tamehana : I shall not address you in the way the others have addressed you. All I shall say is, "Welcome here to see us." Welcome to the place where other Ministers have been before you. Although a great deal may be said, we are all assembled here for the purpose really of seeing you. Ido not welcome you as the Native Minister, or as anything else in connection with the Natives. I merely welcome you as you have come here to see us. There is the boundary of the confiscated land. I have nothing to say outside of that. It is well for you to come and see us, but you cannot unloose the trouble that is fast on my back. All I have to say is, " Welcome to you, my European." Manga (Bewi): There are two kinds of ministers that have been here. The first kind of minister preached to us about God. Time went on and we were told that there was another sort of Minister —that is, this kind of Minister (a Minister of the Crown). My first acquaintance with the last kind of Minister was in Sir Donald McLean's time. We considered the policy of that Minister ;he passed away, and another Minister came to the front having a different policy. We have a lot of things to bear in mind. We must bear in mind your policy, and compare the policy of future Ministers with it. You must consider, now that you have come to see us, that we bear in mind the policy of previous Ministers. Welcome. Welcome to consider all these different policies that have been laid before us, to consider all the matters that refer to the Maoris and to the Europeans that are in the presence of the Minister. It is well that you should come here and look

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into these matters. They are matters of great importance from a Maori point of view. It is well that you should consider carefully this word, that there should only be one policy for the Europeans and the Natives. You, the present Native Minister, carefully consider this word, that there should be only one policy for the Europeans and the Natives. lam very glad to see you within this house, and of your appointment to the position of Native Minister to conduct matters for the Native people. Give us some new policy that will be clear to the Native mind. I have nothing new to say. I say the same now as I said to Sir Donald McLean in his time. Do you search for some new word to tell us or some new policy. From the commencement of these matters we only looked to the Almighty—that was taught us by the ministers. Now, this is a Minister who conducts matters according to law; the other was one who conducted matters according to religion. Do you search for some new policy. [To the Natives : Have I said anything wrong ?] A song was here sung by the Natives assembled. Mr. Ballance, in reply, said: My friends, I thank you all for your very cordial welcome. It has given me great pleasure to meet the chiefs and people of the Waikato. I recognize that the different tribes of the Waikato may hold different opinions upon various subjects of policy, yet you are all agreed in welcoming the representative of the Government. Your words show the feeling which you entertain towards me simply as a representative of the Queen. I have listened to your sentiments and they are all excellent. It has been well said by a chief who has spoken that the Queen is supreme in this colony. It does not require us to go out of the colony to find the power of the Queen. The Queen, represented by the Government and by the Parliament, is here as much as in England, and it is from that authority in the colony that will proceed the redress of all grievances. It has been said that one man passes away and another comes. Yes, that is so ; but the Government and the Parliament remain and will survive the lives of us all. The son of William Thomson has said that we cannot unloose the trouble that is fastened on his back. Why not ? He can unloose his own trouble if he chooses, but, if he will persist in pursuing false ideas and false hopes, troubles will remain on his back. Rewi has referred to the hope that a policy will be given which will be clear to the Native mind. I have only to say, on this point, that I shall try to make my ideas clear to all of you. I wish to keep nothing back, but to take you into the confidence of the Government and state the policy that the Government intend to pursue, without any reservation whatever. I have heard that there are many subjects which are agitating your minds at the present moment. There are the questions of the railway, of the Land Court, and of the land. I hope to hear the expression of your views upon these and other subjects, and I shall try to explain anything that may be obscure and make it clear to your minds. It has been said that a promise was given by my predecessor that nothing would be done beyond the survey in the matter of the railway until a representative of the Government had appeared amongst you. I looked to find this promise in the records of the department but I could not find it, for I felt that it was my duty to make good all promises. When I heard from several of your chiefs that such promises had been made, I lost no opportunity of announcing that I should appear amongst you; and I am here to-day to discuss all the questions that you may think of importance, to put plainly before you the policy and intentions of the Government with regard to the lands and the railway and roads. If there are other subjects which you wish me to refer to I hope you will not be backward in referring to them yourselves. It is well that there should be a clear understanding between the Government and the Native people. The present Government believes that there should be no differences between the two races; in other words, that they should be made one race. It is our sincere desire to promote in every possible way the happiness and prosperity of the Native people; therefore, where there is a difference of opinion, I hope that we shall discuss that difference and see whether it cannot be adjusted. I will now say no more at the present time except to again thank you for the very cordial welcome which you have given to me, the representative of the Government. Wahanui : It has been decided to welcome you this day—that is, to welcome you in the first instance, and, having finished the welcome, we suggest that you adjourn till after dinner, after which we will meet again. We, the Maori people, have been discussing amongst ourselves as to what should be said, and we have not arranged anything yet about the line of proceedings, and now, as the time as come, we ask for an adjournment to enable us to discuss the matter. We ask you now to allow us to dissolve the meeting until after dinner. Mr. Ballance replied that he was entirely in the hands of Wahanui, and, if Wahanui wished for an adjournment, he (Mr. Ballance) would be very pleased for that course to be taken. On resuming after lunch, Wahanui said: lam going to speak upon the matters about which I was sent by the people to Wellington. One was one of the policies which we, the Maoris, had initiated, and which referred to the people and the land. It was fully understood that there was nobody who would interfere or complain of what was done within the boundaries of the land that we had marked out. After we had arranged this policy—when it was settled that we were to hold on to the land, and that we were to preserve the land and the people, and to keep the tikanga —this was universally agreed to by the majority of the people at that time. After we had got this policy finally settled, then we were to fight with, or negotiate with, the Government with regard to matters within the district. After that the fighting took place ; people got wounded in the arm and in the shoulder, and there was great trembling, and then the old policy broke up. The policy was then broken up, and the men divided, and the land was separated, and everybody took a new departure, some of them according to European ways, and they were all split up. After this break-up took place there was no recognition of relationship; every one worked for himself. One brother would not do the same as another brother; but we do not charge the Europeans with bringing this about. The Europeans assisted the Maoris, but the Maoris themselves were to blame. Everybody was more or less wounded (or tainted) with the system up to the time of Mr. Bryce. When Mr. Bryce took office he made a compact with me, which was signed, that a search for the railway was to be made,

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and, if a suitable line were found, he was to return and let me know. There were five of the Ngatimaniopoto present when this contract was made, but they are not here now. I spoke to the five who were there, and I said, " How shall we do in the absence of the majority of the people ?■" They said. "It cannot be helped, we must act for them as they are not here." They said, "We will agree to what Mr. Bryce asks." It was then agreed, on the understanding that it was only to be an investigation to find out the best route for the railway, and after it was found they were to return and let the Maoris know before doing anything else. I then said to Mr. Bryce, " What you wish for has been agreed to; now I want you to agree to my request." Mr. Bryee asked me, "' What do you want ?" I then said, "I am going to send a petition to the House, and I want you and your Cabinet to back it up." I went on with the petition at once, but you know yourselves what it is. We were not consulted with regard to the erection of trig, stations ; the consequence of this was that the Maoris got unsettled seeing what was being done, as one brother could not advise the other or tell the other anything about it, and I was sent to Wellington by the people. When I got to Wellington I spoke to Mr. Ballance, and he will remember what I said to him : (1.) With regard to the external boundary-line; (2.) To leave us to sanction the making of the railway-line; (3.) That the gold should not be worked by Europeans without our authority ; (d.) With regard to giving power to the Maori Committees to conduct matters for the Maori people ; (5.) That no liquor licenses should be granted within certain boundaries; (6.) That the Native Land Court should not try any of our lands without our first sanctioning it, and that the Europeans should refrain from interfering with the Maori lands, but leave the Natives to manage them themselves. I spoke to Mr. Ballance at Wellington about all these matters. I am mentioning these matters that you—Mr. Wilkinson —and your people, the Ngatimaniopoto, may hear. I referred to all these matters in my speech to the House, and I now say to you, the people who are here, that whatever you have to say to Mr. Ballance, bo clear. If you are satisfied to allow the railway to go on, say so; if not, be clear to say so ; lay your matters fully before the Minister. The reason I went to Wellington was that I might lay these matters before both Houses. I will now leave the matter for Mr. Wilkinson and his people to talk to Mr. Ballance about. John Ormsby : I stand up, in accordance with what Mr. Ballance said this morning, that nobody should keep back anything, but speak out openly his thoughts. I say that that was a very good remark that fell from Mr. Ballance, therefore I stand up to say what the Maori feelings are in connection with the matter, what they have been and are, to give the reasons why the European race and the Maori race have been estranged. The causes that estranged us are still in existence, although they are all working together. Nothing has ever been done or said yet to enable us to do away with this estrangement. The only thing that has been done, so far as I know, was the petition that was sent to Parliament. In that petition was set forth everything that the Maoris were afraid of would do them harm, and also what they desired should be done to benefit them. In order to make what I am stating clear I will go back to the commencement. There are two principal things about which the Maoris are very fearful: One is anything that pertains to our land, which refers indirectly to the Native Land Court, and to roads. Possibly Mr. Ballance will say, " Why is it you fear these two things?" Now, the reasons are these :We have never seen any good yet come out of the work of the Native Land Court. Where now are the numerous blocks of land which have been passed through the Native Land Court ? They are not in the possession of the Maoris, but they are in the possession of Europeans ; therefore I say there can be no good result to us from the action of the Native Land Court. Now, with regard to the roads. It has been stated that, as soon as ever a road is formed, then a Boad Board is also formed—that is, the Eating Act is enforced. The Act gives the Government power to proclaim within the Eating Act any land, although it may not have passed through the Native Land Court; and our lands, although we might not have used them for twenty years, still the rates would go on accumulating, and, whenever we use them, the accumulation of rates would be demanded from us. Possibly you will reply, and say, " That is your fault, because you do not put your lands quickly through the Court." Then I shall say, " Through which Court are we to pass them? " Because, as I have shown, we are fearful of the action of the Native Land Court, because of the evil acts by which the Native Land Court is worked. Those are the reasons that we have dreaded up to the present time. We thought at the time that we sent our petition that we would explain to the Government what we wanted—that some Acts would be passed that would be beneficial to the Native race. We wished that we should be allowed ourselves to manage matters concerning our own lands. The reason why we wish to manage our lands ourselves is because we, being the owners of land, know all about it, and are the proper persons to manage it. In accordance with the present procedure of the Native Land Court, anybody can go in and lay a claim to a block of land whether he has a right to it or not; and, should he be strong, and press his fictitious claim, the Court will give judgment in his favour. Another fault that I have to find in connection with the Native Land Court is that there are others backing up those that appear before the Court. Those are the Government and the companies. They back up people who put claims in to the Court. The reason why I associated the Government with companies is because the Government is a purchaser of land the same as the companies are. One says, "I am the proper person to buy ;" another says, "I am the proper person to buy." The fact of them having paid money to Natives on account of land strengthens the claim of those people when they are in Court, and I have found out that a Court is merely a machine by which the lands are transferred by the Native owners to either the companies or the Government. I will not say that these Acts were made with the intention of bringing about evil, but I believe they are made thinking that they would produce good; but when they were worked it was found that they produced evil; and I therefore consider that this, the 4th day of February, 1885, should be the commencement of an era in which we would start a new policy in connection with these matters, and that it should be done in accordance with Mr. Ballance's remark that we should lay our matters fearlessly before him, and hide nothing. There were two things granted to us out of the petition : One was to keep in future the companies from dealing with our lands; the other was to

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give the Native Committees power. But, with regard to the forming of the Native Committees, that was not carried to such an extent as we wished. It was only a shadow when we came to take hold of it to work it—it was not substantial. I now ask that the Committees shall have some power given to enable them to force disputants to bring their cases before the Committee, andfthat the Committee should be placed in the position of the Native Land Court. What the Europeans desire is that the land should be granted individually, but I consider that it would not be proper to individualize the titles; that they should be given in favour of hapus, because from the time that our ancestors first settled on this land it was always divided amongst hapus ; nothing was known about individualizing titles; then each hapu can appoint its own Committee, and then the Committee representing each hapu could manage or decide whether their land should be rented or sold. I will now refer to what I said with regard to the Government purchasing Native land. I will now refer to what I said with regard to the Government purchasing Native land. It has been said that the Government is the proper person to purchase Native lands, but I say " No." There are no persons who have more right to dispose of Native land than the owners of that land; and I say that if the Government have the selling or the purchasing of Native lands it shuts the Natives out of the market; and we wish the Government at the present time, during the time that we are ignorant as to what should be done, to look after our lands for us—that is, that no person should be allowed to come in and interfere with our management of them. I consider that if the Government were to act in this way there would be no further trouble. There would be no road opened by which a single person from a hapu could go to the Government, and say, " Give me a couple of pounds on account." Everything that that hapu wanted to do would be done through their Committee or Board. I will now refer to the Maori members in the House of Parliament. We claim that four members are two small a number for us in the House. When we compare that there are only four Maori members and ninety European members, that four is too little. The election of Maori members should be regulated in the same way as that of European members— that is, according to population. According to your way of doing it, about every five thousand people are represented by a member. The Maori race numbers some forty thousand. According to the European basis of population there is a member for every five thousand, including women and children; but, when we come to appoint the Maori members, you only allow a Native member for every ten thousand. I say that there should be eight Native members, to put us on an equal footing with the Europeans. Perhaps you will say that some of the Maoris vote for European members, but the Maoris should be restricted to vote for the Maori members only. That is one of the matters that lam very anxious that Mr. Ballance should consider. Another matter is the passing of the laws. Previously it has been the custom for the Acts to be made by the Europeans only, and the Maoris have no voice in the matter; although the Maori members may be in the House at the time that the Acts are passed they have no knowledge of them—they have no voice, no power. I consider that, in the formation of Acts that refer to the Native race, the Natives should be consulted. When it is proposed to pass an Act that affects the Native race copies of the proposed Bill should be circulated amongst the Natives beforehand, so that they may have something to say about them, or it might be left to the Natives themselves to propose an Act, and leave it to the Parliament to ratify it. I consider that this could be very easily done, and the European members could be got not to oppose it. Something of this kind might be done, as we are trying to meet each other's views. It is said that there should be only one law for the Maoris and the Europeans. I would ask you, has there only been one law during the past for the Maoris and the Europeans ? I say to you there has not been only one law. I will show you how it is with regard to lands owned by Europeans : the owners of those lands are allowed to sell them or not as they think fit. With regard to Maori lands, some of them are placed in the hands of the Public Trustee; he has to deal with them. There is a Trust Commissioner also appointed, who has the power to give authority to any sales or leases that have taken place or not as he chooses. What I say is, that these Trust Commissioners should be done away with, and, in their place, give the power to the Native Committee of each hapu. I have one more thing to speak about, and then I will sit down. With regard to the gold and other products of the land. During the present time our land is overrun with prospectors for gold. They are coming amongst us on account of the strenuous action of the European people and posssibly of the Government itself. Possibly some of the people say, "Oh ! the owners of the lands have sent us here to prospect;" but I reply to them by saying, " You don't know who the owners of the land are;" for, when we ask you to give us authority within our tribal boundaries, you say, " Oh, we don't know that you own the land within them:" and in the same way, when a Maori sanctions mining for gold on land, he is not the only owner of the land to give his sanction. I therefore ask that the Government should stand forth to keep the Europeans from prospecting for gold on Native land, and that notices should be circulated among Europeans that they are not to go and prospect for gold on Maori land. Now, we do not wish you to think that we want to stop prospecting, that it shall not take place hereafter, because I am anxious to have some money put into my pockets as soon as possible; but I want to have it done in a proper way, by the proper powers. There is something else in connection with our petition regarding liquor in the King Country. We sent our petition in, and in it we defined the boundaries of the land that we wished covered by the Proclamation. When the Government issued the Proclamation there was a gap in it; the portion we were most anxious about was left out. Now, I have said, Mr. Ballance, that, if you have any real affection for the Native people, this is one of the means by which you can show it. Make these regulations with regard to drink in the King Country as stringent as it is possible to make them. This is the day that we wait to hear your statement to us regarding that matter, in order that we may do what you wish us to do in accordance with the law. I will now repeat the heads of the matters that I have already brought before you. The first is the Native Land Court. We object to it, and we have shown our disapproval of it in the petition. (2.) The roads and the railway. Our objection to them is the fear that we may be rated in connection with them. (3.) We ask for extra powers to be given to the Native Committees; and (i.) That it

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shall not be left for a person to consent or not to take his matter before the Committee, but that it shall be compulsory for him to do so. (5.) To adjudicate the lands in favour of hapus, and not individuals. (6.) To have a Committee appointed for each hapti. (7.) For the Boards to conduct all matters relating to sales or leases, as the case may be, and that the Government and private Europeans have nothing at all to do with it. Let them —the Committees or Boards—be independent of the Government or companies. (8.) Do away with all prospecting for gold, coal, iron, or any other mineral that may be found under the ground—that is, do not allow prospecting for these things to take place during the present time, not until things are settled. (9.) That the number of Maori members of the House be increased, and whenever it is proposed to pass an Act that affects the Maori race that copies of the Bill should be circulated beforehand amongst the Native people; and, if these things that I have referred to are carried out, I believe that good will be the result—that is, your knowledge and experience will be combined with my knowledge, and good will be the result. (10.) To have the boundary of the prohibition licensing district rectified, and make the prohibition to be enforced in that district very stringent indeed. Should these things be carried out I am sure that good will be the result of them. To Hoti Tamehana spoke in favour of retaining the Native Land Court. Hopa te Sangianini, after referring to his greeting to Mr. Ballance that morning, said : If you want to put your railway through, put it through; but, as to the payment for the land, do not part with it yet; make no payment on account of it. If a man of rank or a man of no rank asks for payment, give him nothing, but as soon as their names are in the order of the Court you will know whom to pay. Will you treat me in that way or not ? Go on with your railway (or public works), that is your policy, but we shall still expect you to conduct matters for the good of the Native people. We must now be joined together and not be at enmity, and we should combine to resist an outside foe, should there be any. Taonui said that the causes of trouble coming amongst them were those nientioned by Mr. Ormsby. He went on to say : These things mentioned by Mr. Ormsby are what we have all been discussing. We wish that all these matters that have caused pain to our hearts and trouble to our land may be done away with ; and this is the day on which they can be done away with. Then we shall truly be one, and say to each other, ' Ehoa, tena koe ; Ehoa, tena koe.' We shall then nod our heads one to another and gaze in each other's countenances. After some more to the same effect, he said: "If you carry out these matters I shall nod my head to you; if you will not carry them out I will not nod my head to you." Pineha Taiuhaki referred to the introduction of Christianity into the Island. He stated that as time went on he heard of the Native Land Court and of Sir Donald McLean, whom he took to be a land purchase officer, but afterwards found out that he was called a Minister. Time went on and he saw Mr. Bryce, who put a road (railway) through their land. Mr. Bryce said, " Allow the roads to goon in order that the Maori people may be benefited." He thought that they (the Maoris) would be allowed to use the train without payment. Te Hauraki said :I am going to speak what is in my mind. My first word to you is with regard to the external boundary. I want you to ratify it, in order that people may not enter it and interfere, and in order that no Maori may go and take money from Europeans for land within that boundary. Do not allow the Court to have any jurisdiction within it. The land there should be treated as Heripukanga was. Do away with the payments that have been made on account of that block, and leave it for those who took the money to refund it. That piece of land is within the external boundary. I want Mr. Ballance to remove any payments that have been made on account of it. That is all I have got to say about that. I have already asked you to be stringent in making regulations regarding this block. Leave the road (railway) for the present. It will go through in the course of years. Leave it for some years hence till you have settled all matters concerning the land for the Natives to reside on; then the railway can be made. Let the Land Court be outside the boundary. Do not let it go on inside it. Aporo te Taratutu also deprecated the railway being pushed on in a hurry. Mr. Ballance said : I have listened carefully to the speeches that have been made here to-day. I heard Wahanui narrate what he had done in Wellington. Most of the questions "discussed here to-day were discussed between us when he was in Wellington during the session. He has referred to the erection of a trig, station. The erection of trig, stations, as the Native people are aware, has nothing whatever to do with the title to the land. They are erected to enable the land to be surveyed, and the titles to be made out when the time has come for that purpose. Most of the subjects that concern the Native people were alluded to from time to time between us. When a Bill was brought forward to deal with the Native lands on either side of the railway, it was referred to Wahanui for his opinion. With some parts of that Bill he agreed, and with other parts he disagreed. He made a speech at the bar of the House, in which he referred to, the parts of the Bill which he described as the teeth of the Bill, and asked that the teeth should be drawn. We listened to his advice and we agreed to withdraw those parts which he considered objectionable until the Native people had time to consider the whole question. The Government thought that time should be given for deliberation, and that this question should be discussed amongst the Natives themselves before we proceeded finally to legislation. The Bill finally passed in its present form, and deals with four and a half millions of acres of land, going up to Te Awamutu, and going down as far as Wanganui. The object of this Act is to prevent private dealings in that land, to prevent private parties from going behind the actual owners and acquiring the territory in order to enrich themselves from the contemplated approach of the railway. The position is this : That land cannot be touched by private individuals, or until the Native people themselves desire that it should be dealt with. I listened with great pleasure to the clear speech that was made by Mr. Ormsby, also to those made by others, and I shall deal with Mr. Ormsby's speech point by point, for it seems to have dealt with the whole question. He has referred to two things which he says are attended with some amount of danger to the people, viz., the Land Court and the roads. With some of his

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views I slightly disagree. If I understand him aright, he wishes that the Native Committees now constituted should deal internally with the Native title, to the exclusion of the Native Land Court. The Native Land Court is supposed to be an independent tribunal, that will decide fairly between the conflicting parties. It may be that sometimes the Native Land Court will make mistakes. I am not prepared to state that the Court is immaculate ; but let me ask, Is the Native Committee immaculate ? Might it not also make errors ? Might it not be partial in its decisions, and fail to do justice ? Might not the majority of the Committee be entirely on one side, and might not that majority favour the people of its own tribe to the injury of the people of the other tribes ? lam not disparaging at the present time a Native Committee, but I am pointing out that no institution is altogether perfect. All require to be hedged in with sufficient safeguards. Now, with regard to the action of the Native Land Court in the country which has been taken under this Act, I would say this: It is not my desire to force the Native Land Court upon the people, but if the people ask for the Native Land Court why should it be refused ? . Then, only a short time since most of the important chiefs and people and landowners signed a petition that the Native Land Court might sit and adjudicate upon their title. Ido not know whether they are still of the same mind, but, suppose they are of the same mind, why should they not have a Court ? This is a matter entirely for themselves. Now, let me say one word with regard to the action of private persons in the Native Land Court. I have given instructions that when an application is made for a survey a copy should be sent to the Chairman of the Native Committee, as well as copies to the principal chiefs, so that all may know what is going on. lam now considering whether some legislation could not be had to prevent the abuses which have occurred through Natives who have very little claim to the land taking action to set the Court in motion. I agree very largely with the remarks of Mr. Ormsby upon this point, and I hope that next session we shall be able to take such measures as will prevent abuses from occurring again. Now, with regard to roads and railways, I suppose that the Natives are governed by the same feelings and the same views as the Europeans upon this point, namely, that nothing is more desirable than to have roads and railways through their land in order to give their land a value. They must know that there are large blocks of land in this country which have really no value at all, because there are no roads or railways through them, and if they had to sell this land at the present moment they would not receive more than three or four shillings an acre, whereas if railways or roads were made through it it would sell for as many pounds an acre. But I have learned from the speeches that were made to-day by the more responsible speakers that no one objects to roads and railways. What they do object to is that the land should be rated on account of these roads and railways. I object to this Eating Act as much as Mr. Ormsby or any other Native present. I think it is unfair to rate land that is not in the condition of being used. The Government have the power of proclaiming Native lands subject to the Eating Act, and of course they may abstain from proclaiming land under the Act. Ido not think any of this land along the line of the railway, or along the roads leading up to the railway, should be proclaimed under the Act. When the land has been leased or sold, then the time will have come for putting on rates; and I infer that no Native will object to pay rates when the land has been leased and is being cultivated, for the rates are put on for the benefit of the roads, and roads cannot be made without them. It should be borne in mind that the money is not lost. It goes into the roads, and the roads give a value to the land. But, as I have said, that only applies in my opinion to land which has been sold, leased, or is in actual cultivation, and therefore there is no danger to be apprehended that the land referred to will be brought under the Eating Act. Now, with regard to the powers of Native Committees, I am inclined to believe that the Native Committees may render great service in administering the laws among the Native people. I desire, therefore, to encourage them in every possible way, and I propose next session to bring in an amending Bill to the Committees Act, giving to the Committees power to adjudicate on cases up to a certain amount among their own people. At the present time they have this power, but they can only use it when the parties agree to submit their case to the Committee. But what I propose is to give the Committee the same power as a Court. I think it is also desirable to give them some revenue, if they desire it, and I am considering the expediency of handing over to them the collection of the dog-tax, for instance. I think also that the Chairman should be paid a small sum for attending to> the duties that may come upon the Committee. Then we propose to give them larger powers on preparing cases for the Native Land Court, so that all cases will come before the Native Committee in the first instance, and then go on to the Native Land Court, which will finally deal with the matter. With regard to vesting the title in hapus, instead of individuals, I have a few words to say. There are great abuses that have arisen from vesting the lands in a limited number of owners to the exclusion of others. In some cases those in whom the land has been vested as trustees have exercised the rights of owners, instead of trustees, and those not included in the grant have been wronged. I propose to bring all in. When the Land Court has found out the owners to a certain block of land, we propose that those owners should meet together and elect a Committee of, say, seven members, who should have the right of managing that particular block for the interest of all the owners. We propose that when they wish to lease their land for instance, that they should come to a Board consisting of three members, and that Board should put in motion the machinery, in order to have the land surveyed, cut up and leased. It is proposed that the Government should advance the money for the surveys, and that this money should be repaid out of the rents. Now, in order that this Board should be thoroughly represented, we propose that there should be one Commissioner appointed by the Government, the Chairman of the district Naitve Committee should be another member, and that another should be perhaps elected by the Natives themselves, but we have not yet decided how this third shall be appointed. Now, I agree that all large questions of legislation affecting the Native people should be circulated amongst them before being introduced. It is my intention to circulate the Bill amongst the Native Committees and amongst the principal chiefs and landowners of the Island. The Boards will have the power of conducting all sales of land and all leases, but they will have no power of 3-a. 1.

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doing so unless the Committee of the particular block is willing. The fullest power, therefore, will be given to the people themselves through their local Committees, and no reason will be allowed to prevent or precipitate the action of the Committees. With regard to the question of prospecting, Mr. Ormsby seemed to imply that the Government had given permission to prospectors. If any prospector has said so he has alleged what is not true. The Government has given no permission to any prospector since my interview with Wahanui. If any prospector says so in the future, let him produce the writing authorizing him. In proof of this, it is but a short time since a notice appeared in the Gazette, stating that no permission be given to any prospector to prospect, unless he first had the consent of the Native owners and the Native Minister. The Native Minister has the power of delegating his authority to some other person. When I was on the Wanganui Eiver I delegated my authority in that district to the Chairman of the Maori Committee, and I have no objection to delegate my authority likewise to the Chairman of this Committee, to give permission or not to prospect, but I decline myself to give any permission to any prospector to go upon land the owners of which are not known. Now, with regard to the number of Native members in the House, I listened with great attention to the statement of Mr. Ormsby on this point. I took up the same question last session and discussed it in the House, pointing out that the Native people had not their fair and just share of representation, but we differed with regard to the population—it was one in five thousand. Now it is one in about six thousand. Then, again, a difference of opinion exists with regard to the number of the Native people. You will find it in Hansard that I stated in the House, last session, that there were forty thousand Maoris in New Zealand, and I stated that on the basis of the last census returns. Mr. Bryce got up and said that there were not more than thirty thousand. This would reduce the number of members, according to the basis that he stated, to perhaps five or six. Ido not agree with Mr. Ormsby that the Native people should lose their right of voting for European members. That is a privilege which they enjoy when they own land in their own right; and I hold that it is only right that they should enjoy the same privileges as Europeans, I may say, further, with regard to the number of members, that I advocated, last session, that the number should be increased, and I shall still advocate it. I shall propose that they shall have the same number of members in proportion to population as the Europeans. With regard to the licensing district, there has been some misunderstanding or mistake in the matter. As an earnest of our intention and our regard for the Native people, we acceded to that petition and acted upon it. We took in a tract of country which perfectly astonished every person that saw the Proclamation. The Government received a strong remonstrance against the Proclamation from persons living at Kawhia, but it is now said that we have excluded some portion of the district from the Proclamation. I was not aware that we had done so, and I cannot yet realize the fact; but I will look further into the matter, and, if we find that there is a portion where there is no European population that ought to have been taken in, I shall take immediate steps to have it remedied. Reference has been made to companies coming in and purchasing land. I think that no stronger proof could have been given of the intention of the Government to keep companies out. There is not a company in the colony at the present time that is not violently opposed to the Government on account of its action in regard to Native lands. With regard to the restrictions upon Native lands that are passed through the Court, there is scarcely a day on which Europeans have not come to me and asked that restrictions should be lifted in order that the lands might pass out of the hands of the Native owners, and I have not in a single case lifted the restriction, although in some cases, where the action was commenced by my predecessors, I have been compelled in good faith to carry it out. That ought to be an earnest of my intentions, and of my action with regard to the protection of Native land. With regard to the Government purchasing land from the Natives, lam not anxious that the Government should purchase land. The Government had advanced large sums of money on lands that are under Proclamation, and will be satisfied if they can get that money back. The Bill that we intend to introduce will prevent the necessity of the Government acquiring lands, the principal object of the Government being to get the land and country settled; and, if the Natives will do that themselves by leasing their lands, the Government will assist them and not otherwise interfere. I think I have now gone over seriatim most of the questions which have been raised by Mr. Ormsby. If I have left any point obscure, upon it being pointed out, lam ready to explain it. I have been as full in my explanations as possible, and have kept nothing back with regard to the intentions of the Government, and I hope I have made it clear to all your minds. John Ormsby : I was very pleased to hear Mr. Ballance's replies to the matters that I mentioned. Mr. Ballance's reply with regard to the Native Land Court is correct —that is, he says if any person sends in an application to the Court it would not be well to refuse that application. I say that the Committee that was appointed would be the proper body to deal with the land. I will admit that the Committee itself is not properly constituted just now. I was very pleased indeed to hear what Mr. Ballance said about increasing the powers of the Committee; and if those extra powers are given to the Committee, then I would suggest that the present Committee be broken up and a new one elected, and then each one would strive to elect his representative. On the election of the new Committee it would most likely be found that each hapu and tribe had its representative. Mr. Ballance was right in his statement that some chiefs, owners of the land, had already sent applications in to the Native Land Court for hearing. The reason those applications were sent in at that time was that there was no other course open to them; but, after the Native Committees were elected, then it was considered that those applications should be recalled, and the matters left to the Native Committees to deal with. We should remember that this deciding about the titles for land is a matter that requires a great deal of attention from all of us. It should be borne in mind that the Native Land Court has been in existence for over twenty years or more, and no other system has been established. The reason I speak in favour of the Native Committees is that I refer to actions that took place before ever the Native Land Court was in existence. In those days land was sold, and there was an end of it; there was no trouble afterwards in connection with it. There might

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have been a solitary case of trouble; that was all. After that the Court was established, on the supposition that it would do away with all troubles and evils, but it was found that it was the introducer of all troubles and evils; and numerous are the blocks of land that have suffered through the action of the Native Land Court, and so have the people. lam not prepared to say that the fault lies with the Court itself, but it is with those who conduct the matters that concern the Court. I hold with Mr. Ballance with regard to that, and we can settle that amongst ourselves. Now, with regard to the second of my questions—that is, the road—Mr. Ballance says that he believes the feelings of the Maoris are the same as the Europeans with regard to that. The Maoris are perfectly willing that the road should be made. Mr. Ballance was perfectly right when he said the objection was to the rates, not to the roads. Mr. Ballance has said that his own opinion is that the Eating Act should not be enforced upon this land ; not until such time as something has been done in the way of disposing of the land. Now, as far as I am personally concerned, I am fully with Mr. Ballance on that point; but I would like it to be put in this way : not that we should be told that the Act will be left in abeyance, but that it will not be put over such land. If it is possible for him to sign a document satisfying us all that the Act shall not be put in force over our lands,-it will be well; but we do not want that: we just believe what he says, but we bear in mind the compact that was entered into between Mr. Bryce and ourselves regarding the railway-line. A new king has arisen in Egypt, who knows not Joseph. That was not Mr. Ballance's fault, because the compact was not laid before him, and he was not made acquainted with it. Now, with regard to the Committees, we are very strenuous in asking that more power should be given to the Committees in the next session of Parliament, that they should have more power to deal with the troubles that crop up amongst the Maoris themselves. There are two sources of trouble : one comes from the land, in connection with the boundaries and the ownership to land; another source is robbery and assault and other petty crimes. lam divided in opinion about this matter. I think, perhaps, it would be wrong for the Committee to have power to deal with cases that only represent in value one or two or three pounds. It might be well to leave the power of the Committee to the larger subjects, such as dealing with land. With regard to dealing with crimes, I would have nothing to do with that. Have a Court independent of the Committee for that. With regard to adjudicating the land in favour of hapus, Mr. Ballance looks at that in the same way that I do. It is right which he says that it was the custom to give the land to ten people, and those who were not registered owners suffered thereby; but the proper way would be as suggested, that the owners of a piece of land, having been found, should amongst themselves elect a Committee to manage the block. With regard to Boards, we have not settled amongst ourselves with regard to that; it might be well to have three to form a Board, or possibly five. If it would be satisfactory for you to have five, let five be the number. With regard to prospecting for gold, I am with Mr. Ballance in his suggestion that he would delegate his power in this respect to the Chairman of the Committee. That would mean that it would be for the Committee to decide as to whether they would allow prospecting to go on. But for the present it would be well for you not to do that until things are a little more settled, and then let that power be delegated to the Committees. With regard to increasing the number of Native members in the House, I am clear as to what Mr. Ballance said with reference to his having brought the matter before the House. lam not able to persist in my statement in consequence of what Mr. Bryce has said, that there are only thirty thousand Maoris in the colony. I think no one can say exactly how many there are ; but we ought to look at it in this light: there is a large block of land, four million acres in extent, and there is no one to represent it. The way it is at present: a member is elected, we know nothing about him, we never saw him. If a member were elected for this district he would not be able to go to the Thames. This district extends as far as Taranaki. A member of Parliament only gets £200 a year; £50 of that is expended in keeping him in Wellington, and he has no means of travelling about the country. But that does not matter, as I have heard from Mr. Ballance that he is in favour of increasing the number of representatives. Mr. Ballance thinks it is advisable for the Natives to vote for European as well as Maori members, but I thought it was as well that Europeans would not be able to turn to Maoris and say, " You vote for your own Maori member." I accept the explanation that was given with regard to the licensing boundaries. Mr. Ballance has said that he will endeavour to find out how it occurred, and set it right. lam prepared now to prove to him that the boundary has been wrongly fixed. I think that the Government should appoint some person to look out that there is no sly grog-selling. If Mr. Ballance would like me to show him the part that has been left out I will show it to him. I will now conclude what I have to say, and ask you that those reasons you have brought forward may be written down and signed, so that we can keep it and show it to future Governments. Mr. Ballance : As no one else wishes to speak I will now reply to what has been said by Mr. Ormsby. With regard to what has been said about the Land Court, I agree to a large extent that the Court has not worked very well in the past. I freely admit that blocks of land went through the Court and the Natives saw very little of the money, the proceeds, or the land either. It passed sometimes into the hands of the lawyers and sometimes into the mouths of land-sharks. But you are aware that an Act was brought in two or three years ago which prevented lawyers from sitting in the Court, and removed many of the evils; and I trust that the powers that we are going to give to the Committees will tend to remove most of the evils remaining. It is the desire of the Government to remove from the operation of the Court all objections which might be taken by the people themselves who own the land. We have thought that, when the land has passed through the Court, it should remain in the hands of the people, subject only to the cost of the surveys and the fees which are now paid. Mr. Ormsby has asked me to tell him at once that the Crown and Native Lands Eating Act should not be put over the lands —that is to say, for the railway, and for the roads which lead to the railway —made for the use of the railway. I think that is a very proper request, and if Mr. Ormsby will address to me a letter upon the point I will send to him an official reply, which will be recorded in the department, which will be kept on record for future reference, and will be binding on future Governments. With regard to what I have said to-day, it is being taken down

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here word by word in shorthand, and will be published. I will send the chiefs and people a copy of that speech—that is, a copy of the proceedings to-day. I agree also that criminal proceedings should be excluded from the operation of the Committees, but I do not think that civil proceedings should be so excluded. Of course, if it is the wish of the Native people that they should not deal with civil cases, it is not the wish of the Government to force them upon them; but I understand that, at any rate in many districts, this was a power which was highly valued by the Committees. In respect to the boundaries of the licensing district some mistake has evidently been made, as I said before, and it has probably occurred in this way : The boundaries of a certain district were set out in a petition sent down by the chiefs and people who signed the petition. The Survey Department may not have understood the boundaries there delineated, and have taken certain boundaries of their own, but that is a matter that can easily be remedied, and if the proper boundaries are pointed out the remedy will be applied. With regard to sly grog-selling, the Government, of course, are very anxious to put it down: it is a loss to the revenue, and the Government do not wish to see the revenue decreased in this way. The only thing the Government can do in the matter is to appoint active policemen, who will see that sly grog-selling is not carried on, and if the culprits are discovered you may depend upon it they will be severely punished. I think I have now noticed the matters introduced in Mr. Ormsby's reply. lam sure that there has been a large general agreement with my speech as a whole. I think we clearly understand each other, and that all points of difference will be satisfactorily settled. I have done the best I can to put the matters at issue clearly before you, and I thank you all for the attention you have paid. John Ormsby: There are two things that I wish to explain: one is with regard to the Committee. I think there was a misunderstanding about the Committee not dealing with crimes or small matters. The Committee being composed of twelve, it is too much to expect that they shall travel all over the place to deal with cases of this sort, and perhaps it would be better that a Maori Magistrate should be appointed to settle such cases. People may, perhaps, ask, Which, out of all these ten things which have been brought before Mr. Ballance have been really agreed to by him and settled ? One thing we are clear has been settled by him—that the Eating Act will not be enforced in this district, because he has promised to answer a letter which we will write to him stating that it will not be done. We, as Maoris, think all the subjects should be included in the letter, not only that one, but the whole of them. What power will the Board have that is proposed to manage the lands? Will they be allowed to sell to the highest bidder, or only to the Government ? The Maoris are most anxious that they should not be shut out from the market, but that they should be allowed to ask the best price they can. You might finish this meeting now, but the Minister must not think that it is all settled, because when we get outside some one may think of something else. James Thomson said that there were two classes of Maoris —the chiefs and the inferior people; and, possibly, when the Native Minister meets them, he would confine his attention to the chiefs and have nothing to say to the inferior people. He wished to advise the Minister not to confine himself to the chiefs, for the inferior people had land as well as the chiefs, and in future to be careful not to make laws for the benefit only of the chiefs and not the inferior people. He asked to be consulted in the matter if it was intended to make laws only for the chiefs. He then went on to say: This is with regard to an Act that was passed last session that affects the Maoris. That Act provides that you only shall meddle with our lands, and that nobody else shall. You are the present Minister who introduced and passed this Act through the House. The Act provides that, although lam the owner of land, lam not to sell it or lease it unless you tell me to. If you say that I can sell my own land lamto be allowed to sell, it and not otherwise; and when the money is paid lam to give it to you and you are to bank it for me; and, after you have banked this money in payment for my land, then you have got to take out your portion for looking after the land. Now, I think that if, before passing that Act through the House, you had consulted the Native people as to whether they were willing to have it, it would have been better. Perhaps you will explain why you do not allow anybody outside of the Government to interfere in the purchase and sale of land. Now, we inferior people consider that, although we are of inferior position, we are the proper people to deal with our own lands. It may be that one person has a large area, and I may only have one acre, still lam the proper person to manage my own acre. In accordance with this Bill I may only own one acre, and it may be worth £1; you will take 10s., and I will take 10s.; therefore I consider that this is a Bill that strikes the Maoris—does them harm. We object to the Native Land Court, as it devours the land; but here we find that you are devouring the land. That is all I have to say. Perhaps you will be good enough to explain the matter and set my mind at rest. Mr. Ballance : I will first of all reply to Mr. Ormsby, and then I will deal with Mr. Thomson's remarks. There is much to be said for the contention that a Committee composed of so many as twelve members might not be a very convenient tribunal, and it might be well to appoint a SubCommittee out of the general Committee, or to appoint the Chairman to exercise the power. lam not alluding now to criminal offences, but to civil cases. However, that is a matter for consideration : it is a matter that I have not yet much considered. lam glad the suggestion has been made, and I will consider it. With respect to the Board's power of leasing the land, it is the intention that the land shall be in every case submitted for public competition, so that the highest price will be obtained for the land, and there will be no favouritism. Mr. Ormsby has asked that an answer similar to the answer that I proposed to give him with regard to the Eating Act shall be given to the other subjects. Those answers are contained in my speeches, with the explanations which I have given, and the official report of my speeches will be the very best replies you can get. He will see that most of those questions are proposed legislation, and will be dealt with in the Bill which we propose to circulate before the session, so that there will be ample time to discuss them amongst yourselves. I have tried to make these questions as clear as I possibly can, and have made long explanations. I hope you will take them exactly as I have given them, and, if you think there is any point still obscure, lam quite prepared to explain it; but I think I have put it beyond the possibility of even

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misinterpretation. Now, with regard to chis question that has been raised by Mr. Thomson about chiefs and inferior people. I did not raise the question; I did not say anything to provoke jealousy between the chiefs and the inferior people, as he calls them; I should never think of doing so. If I wanted to create divisions amongst people, and to work out ends which would not be for their benefit, that might be the course I would take. That responsibility is upon the speaker. Now, let us look at the legislation of the past, and see whether any distinction has been drawn between the chiefs and the inferior people. For your representatives in Parliament every man has a vote. Where is the distinction there ? For the election of your Committee every man has a vote. Where is the distinction there ? You will see that the speaker himself made the distinction, and tried to create a jealousy that should not exist. Further, he has produced an " Act" which really never has become law at all. He tried to frighten you by telling you that the Act had passed. I tell you that there is no such law. It is true that there was a Bill brought in last session containing some of these provisions; but who opposed those provisions and tried to prevent them from becoming law ? Why, one of the very chiefs of whom he seems to be jealous—namely, Wahanui. [Applause.] Where is the cause now for any jealousy between the chiefs and the others ? I have not raised the question ; upon his head must rest the responsibility. James Thomson: I did not say that an Act had been made for the benefit of the chiefs, and another for the inferior people; but what I did say was, " Look out and do not do it in future. I did not say that it had been done, but what I did say was, that it should not be done in the future. You came here for the purpose of seeing the chiefs. You did not come here for the purpose of seeing the inferior people ; therefore I said to you, " If you come here again, come to see all of us." Mr. Ballance : I have only to say that the statement which has just been made is equally as untrue as the first statements. I did not come to see only the chiefs and not the inferior people; I came to see all the people and speak my sentiments unreservedly to them. He admits that he did not say that distinction had been made in the past, but he warned me that it should not be done in the future. I say the distinction never has been made in the past. Judging by the past, then, why should he think it would be done in the future ? You will see he had not considered the question carefully when he spoke. [Applause.] Manga said that he could not let the Minister go to-morrow, as there were other subjects to be brought forward. Mr. Ballance : I have heard what Eewi has said about not going to-morrow. I should like to remain if there is any more business to be brought before me, but I have other meetings in different places, and my time is very short. If there is any other important business of course I will wait for it. Manga : Where are you going to-morrow ? Mr. Ballance : I was going to-morrow to Whatiwhatihoe, by invitation. Manga: I will not agree to your going. As soon as we are both of the same mind, then I will let you go; when you have settled everything, you can go to see Tawhiao. When we have finished I will accompany you to Whatiwhatihoe. Mr. Ballance said he should be glad if Eewi would accompany him to Whatiwhatihoe, but he thought that most of the important questions had been settled. Wahanui said that some of the most important things were to be gone into on the next day. It was then arranged that the following morning should be devoted to business, and that in the afternoon Mr. Ballance should leave for Whatiwhatihoe. The meeting was continued on Thursday, the sth February, 1885. Wahanui: When I was in Wellington Mr. Ballance asked me to give up a road for the railway-line to be made. I replied to Mr. Ballance and said, " I will not discuss the matter now ; it is left for the whole of the people to settle, and everything in connection with it is to be settled by the people themselves." I have come to the people who are on one side. I have not been able to see all the people; only the ones that I have seen are in the house at the present time—that is, Ngatimaniapoto and Ngatiraukawa. There are some from Whanganui here present. Those who are not present are Ngatitawharetoa. Ido not wish you to consider that what lam now saying is in the light of keeping back the railway-line, but what I am anxious for is that I should be able to see those people who are absent, after I have seen you, after this meeting. After those people have been seen by me then the final settlement will take place. Although they may not pay any attention to what I say, still the fact of my having seen them will be sufficient, in accordance with the statement that I have already made, that the matter will be left for the people to settle, because the timber country through which the line passes, and other things in connection with the line, are all in the vicinity of the land owned by these people. I want to discuss with them the matters that were gone into yesterday. Yesterday you did not refuse to us the things that have been refused by two or three previous Governments. Neither is this action of mine withholding from you the thing which you are most anxious to obtain. The only reason we adjourn the matter from this day to some other is because of the road from Kawhia. Now, we wish you to turn that road into the Alexandra Township, not to come across the Waipa, but leave that till we have time to breathe over it —consider it. We wish that road to go from Kopua into Alexandra, instead of touching the railway-line. After the first matter is settled, then there will be time to go on with the second matter. Do not be dark at what lam telling you to your face. Leave us to see each other and discuss about this road during the next few days. I shall conclude what I have to say now. Te Bangituatea: I now greet you for the first time that you are appointed Native Minister. You are called the Minister for the Native race; that is right. I therefore greet you. Come in accordance with the talk. Come to see us. You are the person to whom all the talk is made fast, things pertaining to mankind are made fast, things pertaining to the land are made fast. Another of my words to you is—let Ngatoroihangi's fire stijl burn on and run through the country lam

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afraid of the Europeans who are anxious to purchase land; I shall hold fast to that. The last thing I have to say to you. is—l do not intend to let mine go. Taonui: We have heard what Wahanui has said. He has said that we first wanted to see some of our own people who are absent, then we will finally conclude the arrangements regarding the railway. Leave these days for us to discuss the matter in, because of the statement Wahanui has made' —we have not yet been able to see each other. After we have seen each other and gone into the matter we can finally settle it. I now ask you to let it stand in abeyance for the present. What I mean by this is, that I do not wish to commence the formation of the line for the present. Let it remain in abeyance, as asked for by Wahanui. That is the meaning of what lam saying. Wait a bit before you commence to form the line, that we may talk the matter over. Pineaha : I belong to the Ngatiraukawa. I belong to one of the tribes that has land within the boundary. I greet you in the first instance. Welcome the Minister, the person to whom has been given the name of Native Minister. Great is my praise to you. I praise you very much for the careful way in which you have considered these matters with us yesterday. Those matters that we went into yesterday are all invalids of previous Governments. Now, during your day these matters have been made clear, or resuscitated. May you continue to live long to conduct matters for the Native and European races. That is all my word of greeting to you. I support the request of Wahanui and Taonui in connection with the railway-line, and I am anxious that you should accede to it, namely, that we, the four tribes, should be allowed to settle the matter regarding this railway. That is all. Te Herikiekie: I am one who manages matters for the Whanganui end of the block. I support Wahanui's request, that is, that you should leave for a short time, for us to consider the matter, in order that we may have something to say in connection with this railway. It would not be right for us who are assembled in this house to settle the matter in the absence of the others; but, if it is left till there is a universal acquiescence from the whole of the four tribes, there will be no trouble afterwards. John Ormsby : The reason I rise is to explain why these elderly people have requested that the formation of the railway-line should be delayed. The meeting yesterday was highly pleased with the replies that the Native Minister made to the subjects which had been laid before him. The sting of the scorpion has been broken off: the road we look upon as the scorpion, and the rates as the sting from it. Yesterday that sting was destroyed; now we have changed that insect, the scorpion, into one that we can utilize. There are matters that we want to discuss amongst ourselves, and why we ask you to postpone matters is, that we may settle how much land we shall give up to you for the railway-line, and how much for station sites, and also concerning other matters that belong to the formation of the railway-line. Now, it is known that there are a number of people who own land and live in the vicinity of the land where the line will go that may have different wishes and views to ours. What we should like would be to have time to discuss the matter amongst ourselves, finally settle it, and then hand it over to you. We should like you to state to us what your idea is with regard to this railway-line—how much land will be required, and what you want us to do in the matter. Mr. Ballance, in reply, said : It is perhaps better that I should now explain, in answer to the questions, what my views are on them. Of course that will not preclude any one else from raising and discussing any other question which may occur to him. Wahanui, Taonui, and others have asked for time to discuss the question regarding the railway, not for themselves, but for others who are absent. I therefore take it that they have already made up their minds with regard to this railway—in fact, I know that, from speeches made by themselves, and from letters I have received. It is, of course, well that these questions should be discussed, but I understood they had been thoroughly discussed by the Natives from the one end of the railway-line to the other. Now, I have met the people at both ends of the line, and a great many in the middle of the line. I understood that Ngatai represents the people at the upper parts of the Whanganui Eiver, and that he is one of the persons whose decisions have yet to be taken on the question; but I understood from Ngatai himself, through others, that he has already made up his mind in favour of the railway. Herekiekie, who comes from Whanganui, says that lie asks for time. I met his son at Whanganui, and also at Banana, and he seemed to be in favour of the line going on at once. I, of course, am glad to hear that these questions are to be discussed amongst yourselves. You are aware what took place in Parliament last year with regard to the railway. Parliament went to great pains to ascertain the best route for the line. It took the evidence of Wahanui and others with regard to it, and they fixed the line. Surveys are being made, and are nearly completed. I understand from the engineers that in about three weeks they will be prepared to call for tenders for the work itself. That will, of course, give ample time now to consult those Natives who are not present. Our desire is to push on the line with all speed, so that there will be no delay in the construction of it. That is the wish of Parliament, and I understand it to be the wish of the people amongst you. With regard to what the Government propose as to the land along which the railway is taken, I wish to explain this matter fully. I did not explain it yesterday. I intended, but omitted to do so. The engineer has determined the quantity of land chat will be necessary for the construction of the line. He says he requires one chain in width, except where it runs along the side of hills where cuttings are made, where a little more will be required^ —perhaps two chains. This is so reasonable that I am sure no one here will object to it. Then, with regard to stations, I am told that we shall require perhaps five acres, or, for some stations where there is likely to be a large settlement, ten acres, for each station. Now, we propose to deal with the Natives in the matter of this line precisely as we should deal with Europeans. The law is the same in both cases. We have considered the principle that, if we take land for public purposes such as a railway, we have the right to pay for it. When, therefore, the owners are found and the title is determined, the matter will go to arbitration, and the owners will be paid for the amount of land taken for the railway. When the payment is made will entirely depend upon your-

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selves—that is to say, when you are prepared to go and prove your title to the land. Wahanui has referred to the railway passing through certain bush country, and I will explain this matter to you. Some of the owners object to the bush being cut down and the railway taken through that country. They say the line should go round the bush, not through it. I have consulted the engineer upon the point, and he tells me it would be a very much worse line if it were taken round the bush, and, as the railroad is made for ever, he thinks, and I think, too, that it should be taken by the best route ; but, if it injures the bush, so much the better, for the owners will get the value of the timber cut down. In other parts of the country, where Europeans own timber land, they are very anxious that roads and railways should be taken through their land, in order to develop the value of the timber ; so I should strongly recommend the owners of the bush to insist upon the line going through it, for their own benefit. However, subject to what I have said as to the payment, the engineer must take the railway by the best line. If it were European land, of course it would not do to allow every man to be an engineer for the railway, for it would have as many turns in it as a serpent. However, the Native interest cannot suffer, because the land will be paid for. If it is very valuable, they will get a higher price for it, as we shall make no distinction between them and Europeans in this matter. One of the speakers said he did not intend to let his land go. Of course he did not refer to the land for the railway. He referred to his land generally I suppose. We do not wish him to let his land go. Such a matter will be left to the owners to say what they will do with their own land. All the Government asks is for the land for the railway and for roads, and that they shall pay a fair price for it. I think now I have touched all the points, and will merely repeat, with regard to discussion, by all means discuss this matter among yourselves. lam very glad to hear that my statement with regard to the Bating Act is satisfactory. I have expressed my sentiments very fully, and need not return to it. The engineers are at work in reference to the railway, the Government has gone to considerable expense, Parliament has authorized the line, and I wish you to agree among yourselves as soon as you possibly can, I may say, further, that, with regard to Ngatai, to whom reference is to be made in this matter, I expected to meet him on the Whanganui Eiver. I was told he could not come down because of a slip in the river, and then it was said he would meet me here; but I was informed that he was Very favourable to the railway ; but he is not here, and lam not responsible for that. With regard to the road from Kawhia being formed so as to touch Alexandra, the engineers have laid it out so as, when continued, to join the railway-line. I should also like to see a road made to Alexandra as well, but I was told that road would be very difficult and very expensive, and of little use in winter. I will see about that road, and, if I can induce the Public Works Department to make it, I shall do so, because I recognize that the more roads the Native people have the better for themselves. I think now I have referred to all the questions raised by the various speakers. Hopa te Bangianini said the question had arrived now at the talk about the railway-line and the bushes it would go through. He owned a swamp, over which the railway would pass, and he obtained eels, which were his principal food in summer, from this swamp. He said he had heard that in England railways were taken over viaducts, and he asked that this might be done in this case, instead of filling up the swamp. Aporo Taratutu said that the forests were of very large extent. They commenced from Mangawhare and extended as far as Te Kumi. The owners were Ngatiapa. He was clear about the statement that those bushes should be preserved. Payment should be made for trees that were cut down, because the matai would be used for sleepers. He said that he was going to keep his kahikatea trees," because in summer he used the berries of that tree for food. John Ormsby : I want to say a few words with regard to what Eangianini and others have said with regard to what our views are concerning these timbers—kahikatea, &c. I understood Mr. Ballance to say that he had been informed that it would be very expensive to make a road from Alexandria to Kawhia to tap the railway-line. That is wrong. It would not take much money to make it. During the present time the Government is economical. It is fair to say, now that the road from Kawhia to Kopua is already finished, that it would be, perhaps, about twelve miles from Kopua to the railway-line. There is the large Waipa Eiver between, and the Mangawhare, which would require to be bridged. If the road were made from Kopua to Alexandria it would be only about four miles in extent; it is all level land ; there are no hills to go over, and no creeks to bridge; and this small length of road would open some very valuable land; and it would only take a very small vote to make it. That is why we think that, for the present time, the road should go there. Kingi Hori : I belong to one of the four tribes who have ownership in this land—Ngatimaniapoto, Ngatiraukawa, Ngatituwharetoa, and Whanganui. My first word to you is this: I have much greeting to give you, because you are a stranger; but I shall leave all that on one side. My word to you is, to be very clear in managing matters that pertain to the Natives, that is, those Natives within this provincial district that I have mentioned—the four tribes. They are making friends with you; therefore I say to you that your management should be proper. We wish you to do away with everything that they object to. You must consider that this is a trial effort of theirs to deal with the things according to European custom. I have lots of things to talk to you about, but Ngatimaniapoto yesterday ruled some of them out of order. One thing I want to speak to you about is this: If any applications for surveys of land in the Taupo District are sent in, they are not to be allowed. I believe this matter was mentioned by Ngatimaniapoto yesterday; but, as this is the first time I have seen you, I want to deliver my speech regarding this question. I support Wahanui's request regarding the railway-line—that you should not be in a hurry to proceed with the formation of the line. Give us time to discuss this matter with the whole of the four tribes that own the land within the boundary. Salutations to you. Hopa te Bangianini: I consider the line has gone through. The whole thing is settled; we are only talking now subsequent to the settlement of it. This is merely a Committee of Management. With regard to that Kawhia road over Pirongia, Ido not care what they do with it.

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Leave the matter for three weeks, and then the whole thing will be settled. A matter of more importance fo me is, that we should continue to bear affection to one another. Mr. Ballance: I agree with the remarks of Hopa, that the watercourses should not be interfered with; but the engineer will take care of that, for the sake of the line itself, and put in bridges and culverts. No injury whatever will be done to Native land. Something has been said about eating berries from trees, and so on ; but let me tell you that the money that will come to the people through the construction of this railway will be worth all the berries in the world, and the eels, too. [Laughter.] The Government proposes to let the contracts in such a way that the Natives may be able to take them. That is to say, that a portion of the line will be let in small contracts, so that the Natives themselves may contract and make the line. Therefore a large amount of the money for the construction of this line will go amongst the Native people directly. With regard to the Alexandra Eoad, lam surprised to hear Mr. Ormsby's statement; it is entirely contrary to what I have already heard; but, if the line is only four miles from Kopua to Alexandra, and if the road is to be easily made, Ido not see why it should not be done. This is one of the matters I shall take notice of, and see whether the line cannot be constructed to Alexandra, but without interfering with the other portion of the road that is going on. The road at the present time is only six feet wide. I have given instructions that it should be widened. I believe that it is the wish of the Natives at Kawhia, and of the Natives generally, that it should be made into a cart-road. Instructions, therefore, have been given to widen the line. If the road is as easily made as Mr. Ormsby has stated, you can have a road all the way to Alexandra. Ido not know that there is anything else now to say with regard to it. I think we fairly understand each other. I understand that it is the wish of all of you that these roads and railways should go on. I have explained the matter as fully as I can, and I have only to say, in conclusion, that not a single Native right will be prejudiced. As I said yesterday, greater powers will be placed in the hands of the Natives to deal with their own land, when their land will be enormously increased in value through the construction of this railway and roads. I therefore call upon you all to assist the Government in carrying on these works. Manga: When Mr. Bryce was here it was arranged to give up the railway-line, and I wrote a letter to Mr. Bryce and asked him to hurry on with the formation of the line, in order that it might be completed within five years, that I might ride on it before I die. I thought that was all settled, and that there would be nothing to talk about with regard to that; but I find they are talking about it again. That is all I have got to say about the railway-line; I consider it was settled long ago. Now, it will be well for you to leave the balance of this month for us to consider the matter. It has been previously understood from all parts of the boundary that the thing was settled; now we have objections coming from some parts, and it would be well if we got the balance of this month to settle it, in order that we might discuss these matters that we take great interest in. It is not that we have any doubts in our minds regarding you in the matter, but it is amongst ourselves that we want to settle these matters. Some people of these four tribes who own the land within the boundary are causing trouble. Wahanui has estranged himself by going to the Parliament, to Wellington. Tawhiao was estranged by going to England. This is one matter that is causing me some consideration. Tawhiao was away in England, and Wahanui has been absent at Wellington. Mr. Ballance : With reference to what Manga has said about leaving the remainder of this month for them to discuss this matter among themselves, I think the suggestion is a very good one, and lat once accede to it. I should like to say one word, about Wahanui's going to Wellington, as Manga has referred to it. I was there, too, and discussed the questions with Wahanui relating to the welfare of the people here; and I consider that Wahanui rendered great service to the Native people by his presence at the Parliament last session. He was able to put the views of the people before the Parliament, and represent all their interests, as if the Parliament had been here. His presence there was advantageous to the people, and I see no objection to the people sending as many representatives as they can. Mr. Ormsby yesterday asked for more members of Parliament. I can only say that Wahanui is worth half a dozen members of Parliament to you in the way he hag stated your case to the Parliament. I have now to ask you, if you have discussed all the questions relating to your interests, to allow me to go to Whatiwhatihoe, as I have an appointment there to-day. We have discussed all these questions very fully, and now I propose that you discuss them amongst yourselves during this month; and I wish you to remember this : that I do not come here to sow dissensions among the people. My object is to see you all united, to agree upon all these questions that affect your own interests. All the evils and the mischief that have arisen in the past, and that have most afflicted the Native people, have arisen from their own disunion. You should discuss these questions and agree amongst yourselves, and the Government will be content to assist you in carrying out those things which will be for our mutual good. That is all I have to say. Wahanui: This is in reference to two matters that were referred to—one by Manga, and one by Mr. Ballance. Mr. Ballance has given us three weeks to consider and discuss this matter. If we do not settle the matter within that time it shall be concluded as settled from now. I speak in this way in order that everybody may understand. We will settle it now, lest what has been offered to us now should be taken away; for Governments have offered us things, and we have not accepted them; and it may be, if we do not accept these offers now, at the end of three weeks that the offer will be withdrawn. We must settle it within three weeks whether the thing is to go on.. lam talking in this way in order that you may hear, and that my people may hear.

Notes of a Meeting between the Hon. Mr. Ballance and Tawhiao, at Whatiwhatihoe, 6th February, 1885. Tawhiao said : Greeting to you. Greeting to everybody. Mr. Ballance : I am very glad to see you, Tawhiao< '■ *■

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Tawhiao : I say the same. Mr. Ballance: I had intended to meet you at Whanganui, when you paid your visit there, but you went away too soon for me. You left the day before you intended, and I was unable to meet you. I hope you enjoyed your visit to England. lam very glad to hear from Major Te Wheoro that the people were very kind to you. Tawhiao: They were very kind indeed. It was not that they treated us well for one day only, but for continuous weeks. Mr. Ballance: So I have heard. It has given great satisfaction to the people of this colony. The Europeans, the people of England, are always hospitable to great chiefs when they leave this colony to pay a visit to the Mother-country. It is a strange country to you, but not to many of us. Taivhiao: They are very good people indeed. I have nothing good to say in favour of the soil, but the people are very good. They did not have anything bad to say to us. Mr. Ballance: The climate is not equal to that of New Zealand. You would not have such good health there as you have here. I suppose you have no wish to go back again. . Tawhiao: No; there is only one person of great importance that should go backwards and forwards, and that is the electric telegraph. Te Wheoro: I will speak to you with regard to certain matters that have been carried out since we went to England. One of them is in connection with your Act of Parliament for the Native race. My word to you is, to let it remain in abeyance. If, after consideration, we, the people, are led to discuss it and agree what are the things that would do us good, they should remain in the Act, and the other matters should be cut out. We would suggest certain things for our good to be inserted in the place of those that might be cut out; and, should there be any other Act for the benefit of the Native people that you intend to bring forward, we wish that you would circulate it amongst us first, in order that we might become acquainted with it, and that it may be carried out in the same way that I propose —that is if you have any Act to bring forward other than the one that is now passed. I consider that we will look with great pleasure upon this, because it shows you that the Natives are anxious to get done for them what will be for their benefit. There is another matter that I have to speak about. You were my Government during the time that I was in Parliament. I rendered you assistance; I was the opponent of the Government which has passed away. That is why I stand up to speak to you while you are here. lam your supporter. I therefore say to you—be careful how you manage matters concerning Kawhia. Do not let your management of Kawhia be carried out in the same way as Mr. Bryce's. Pay attention to this. I refer to this matter now because everybody is here to hear me. Now I wish you to notice if any of the Natives here rise in objection to what I have said. That is all. Taiuhiao : I wish that all laws should be carefully laid down, so that I can look at them and then tell you which I prefer. About the railway, I have heard it stated that the railway has been given up to you. It has been stated that the Ngatimaniapoto, those who are chiefs, have given it tip to you. Leave me the management of my land. Mr. Ballance said : Tawhiao, Major Te Wheoro, and friends ; I have great pleasure in meeting you here for the first time. I have long wished to meet Tawhiao and the other chiefs of the Waikato, and now my wish has been realized. I bring from the Government their friendly wishes and statements to the Native people, and give you all my assurance that the Government, one and all, wish the Natives all prosperity and happiness, and are prepared by every means in their power to bring about that result. The Government represent the whole of the people of New Zealand. They desire to rise to that high position of responsibility which has been placed upon them. Their wish is to make just laws which will not favour one person or one party more than another, but take all within their embrace. Differences of opinion may arise between us, but after we have consulted together lam perfectly sure none will remain. We will arrive at those conclusions which will be best for both races. The Government of which lam a member do not favour one race more than another. All are equal in the eyes of the law. Tawhiao has paid a visit to England, the place from which the European people have come. He has seen the greatness of that country, and what has pleased me more than anything else is the great kindness which has been shown to Tawhiao and his friends during his visit. It shows that our race wish well to the Native people. I only hope that the friendship will grow closer as time goes on, that all differences will be removed, and that the Native people will come to realize that the Government is their friend. I will now refer to Tawhiao's speech. His words are very good. He has asked that all the laws shall be so carefully prepared that he may look at them, and that he may have an opportunity of judging which to prefer. I thoroughly agree with that sentiment, and I will try as far as possible to carry out the wishes which Tawhiao has expressed. I think that all important laws, before they are made, should be submitted to the judgment and the discussion of the Native people ; and I shall take care that all Acts and laws shall be submitted to them before they are submitted to the Parliament. The Parliament of this colony is supreme and makes laws for both races. It is only right, therefore, that the people of both races should know what these laws are before they are put into force. I was very glad to hear Tawhiao say this, for it brings us together and tends to establish confidence by requiring that the laws under which you are to live and we Europeans are to live should be carefully discussed before they are passed by Parliament. Major Te Wheoro has had long experience of Parliament, and has in the past been of great assistance in making laws for the benefit of the Native people; and, although he is not a member of Parliament now, I shall be glad to see him during the next session, when we can discuss these questions together in Wellington. Major Te Wheoro has expressed his confidence in me and in the Government of which lam a member. We were of the same party when he was in the House, and went into the same lobby together—that is, voted on the same side ; and he rightly feels that that is some guarantee we shall be working together in the future. When men have worked cordially together in the past they are very likely to be united in the future, and I hope to be in a position to discuss these questions with Major Te Wheoro before they pass into law. Tawhiao and Te Wheoro both have referred to Kawhia, and they have asked that 4—G. 1.

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we should proceed cautiously. We shall proceed cautiously, and I should like to confer with both Tawbiao and Major Te Wheoro as to the steps to be taken witlvregard to Kawhia in the future. I shall always be ready to consult with them as to what is best to be done. Ido not know what they refer to particularly. If they refer to the survey —the trig.-stations—l should like to say a word upon that. The object of the survey is not to affect their lands ; it is to enable the people to have their lands surveyed when they wish to do so, but not before. I will now say one word in. regard to railways and roads. The railway has been authorized by Parliament through the centre of the Island, and must go on, that it may benefit the lands through which it proceeds. The only land that will be taken for it will be the land on which the railway will stand, and that will be paid for, unless, when the owners are determined, they may give it for the purpose of the railway. Europeans look upon railways as a great benefit to them, and they are an equal benefit to the Native people. They will give employment to the young, and they will increase fourfold or tenfold the value of their land. I hope you will therefore cordially assist us in carrying on these good works. Tawhiao saw, when he was in England, that railways intersected all parts of the country. Eailways have made England great, and they will make this colony great also. No one suffers by them : all are benefited. Tawhiao asked that the management of his lands should be left to himself. I may say one word with regard to this question. It is the desire of the Government to leave the management of Native lands as much as possible in the hands of the Natives themselves. The owners of the lands are the best judges to decide what shall be done with them. Last session, by Act of Parliament, we took in four and a half million acres of land. Te Wheoro : Tawhiao referred to Kawhia, and not to the land on each side of the railway. Mr. Ballance : I understand, of course, that Tawhiao referred to Kawhia ; but now I will speak generally with regard to the land for the Natives. It is the intention of the Government to allow the people themselves to manage their land by means of Committees. When the owners of a block of land are found out they will have the power of appointing a Committee among themselves to manage that land, and that land cannot be sold or leased without the consent of the Committee and the people. No private European will then be allowed to come in by a back-gate and get the land away from the people. What shall be done shall be done with the consent of the people themselves. When the people are prepared to lease, then the Government will assist by advancing the money for the surveys, and all they shall ask will be that the cost of the survey will be returned to them. But the law, although it is an important one, shall not be made without the Bill being circulated amongst the Native people. You will have an opportunity of expressing your opinion upon it. The invitation I gave to Te Wheoro I also extend, of course, to Tawhiao. I should be glad to see him in Wellington to confer with the Government during the session on this question. We shall treat him with the kindness and consideration due to a great chief of the people. Your leaders are those who are best able to protect you, and it is the desire of the Government that they should be taken into their confidence. I have now touched upon those subjects which have been referred to by Tawhiao and Te Wheoro. I had intended touching upon more, but I do not suppose that it is of importance to the people that I should go into a very long speech on this occasion. The most important part of my speech is, that we shall consult with the chiefs and the people before we pass laws affecting their interests. I have given you my word that that shall be done in future. lam very glad to meet you all here to-day, and I wish you much prosperity. You will always find me willing to assist you to the best of my ability in everything that affects your welfare. My ambition is that, after I have given up office, the people shall say that I have been a friend to the Native race. Taiuhiao said : What I wish with regard to the Acts that affect ourselves is that it may be left with me to make them, because lam the representative of the people. The Government also are the representative of the people. The Government is the cause of all the surveys, railways, and roads. I have heard about the railway. I agree to the railway going through, but it is to be left to me. I will manage it. I own this district. lam the head man here. lam the representative of the land. I truly say I agree to the railway-line going through. It can only .go through on my agreement. [Mr. Wilkinson here explained to Mr. Ballance that what Tawhiao meant was that, though Wahanui and others had given their consent, it received his ratification.] I have come from England, where I held a conversation with the representatives of the Government. I wish you to understand my statement about the railway-line—that I want to be consulted about railways and roads. lam giving up every point, on condition lam so consulted. Why is self-government for the Maori race being withheld ? Why is it not given to the Maori chiefs to manage things for their own good? Let them have it. Give the chiefs and the tribes a separate Government for themselves. Let them manage their own affairs. Give that to us to-day while the sun is shining. Mr. Ballance : I would just say a few words with reference to what Tawhiao has said. lam pleased to hear him say that he agrees to the railway. It is desirable that we should have the hearty support and co-operation of the Native people in this great work, for I feel assured it will be attended with great benefit to you all. Tawhiao has referred to England, and has seen Lord Derby. The Advisers of the Queen have spoken to him on this question of government. Lord Derby would not speak one word against the Government of the colony. He recognizes as fully as any man in New Zealand that the Parliament and Government of this colony are supreme within the colony. Lord Derby never told him anything contrary to that. Ido not say that others may not have said so, for their own selfish ends. We have evidence that Lord Derby and the other Advisers of the Queen never said anything but what was righc and proper. Lord Derby knows that the Queen, through Her Government and the Parliament, acts in this colony just the same as she does at Home. The Queen is here as well as in England—that is, her power is here. It is exercised here in her name and by her authority. Tawhiao said he would like to be consulted about the question of railways, &c. I agree with him, and it is my desire to consult him on all questions which affect the welfare of his people, and I hope to see him next session in Wellington, to consult upon these questions. He will find that the Government will always be prepared to

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listen with proper respect to any advice he has to offer. Tawhiao has also referred to selfgovernment for the Maori race. He says, " Why not give the people the right to manage their own affairs?" To a large extent I agree with that. We are now extending self-government to the Native race under the Parliament and Government and institutions of the colony. Tawhiao : We want it independently of the Government. Mr. Ballance: To that I answer, there can only be one supreme authority in New Zealand. Every one knows that divided authority would be ruinous to both races; but, subject to that, we are prepared to extend to the Native people large powers of self-government by means of their Native Committees. We propose to give to those Committees larger powers, and to make them really represent the people. Why, what did Tawhiao do the other day ? He signed a petition, with others of the Native people, asking that one of the laws of the colony should be put in force in the whole of the Waikato, taking in Kawhia; and did not the law come to his assistance ? The whole of the country was included, in accordance with the request of those who signed the petition, and the sale of drink was excluded, by the law of the colony, from the whole of this territory. Is it not therefore clear to your minds that, when Tawhiao has made his request, the Government was prepared to grant it, under the laws of the colony ? Does not that prove that the law of the colony is sufficient for the protection of both races'? I have said that requests made by Tawhiao will always be listened to with respect. That request was not only listened to with respect, but was granted ; and Tawhiao may make other requests which will be not only listened to with respect but may also be granted. I have said that the laws of the colony are sufficient. The laws may not meet exactly all the wants of the Natives, but you have the power, through the Parliament, of making them equal to the whole wants of the Native people ; and I have asked that Tawhiao shall consult with us, in order that these laws may be made more perfect and more beneficial to the Native race. That is all at present. Tawhiao asked whether any reply had been sent to England with regard to the petition to the Queen which had been referred to the New Zealand Government ? Mr. Ballance : Tawhiao has asked whether any reply has been sent to England with regard to the petition that was sent Home to the Queen. The Law Officers of the Crown are preparing a reply to the English Government with regard to this matter. The question that has been raised with respect to the Treaty of Waitangi has been carefully considered, and the opinion of the Law Officers of the Crown shall be sent Home to the English Government. The Treaty does not give the right to set up two Governments in New Zealand. The chiefs there bound themselves to accept the laws of the Queen, in exchange for which she guaranteed to them their lives, their liberty, and their property. We are prepared, under that Treaty, as I have said'—under the laws which the Queen has given to the colony, and under the Constitution of the colony—to give the Natives large powers of self-government. That is the meaning of the Treaty, and I tell Tawhiao this and the people this: that no foreign body, no foreign Power, will be allowed to interfere with the internal affairs of this colony. I say this in the name of the Europeans of this colony, and of a large proportion of the Native people. We prize and value our own institutions, and no foreign interference will ever be tolerated. I hope my words are clear here. Te Wheoro : The reason that I get up to speak is, that you and Tawhiao have referred to the journey to England, and have referred to the Treaty of Waitangi. I had something to do with that; lam concerned in it, so are all the people in New Zealand, whether they be friendly Natives or rebels. It is right what you said, that Lord Derby would never say anything to disparage the Government of New Zealand. The reason is this. He wants first to get your reply. You will not be able to foretell or to know whether mine would be trampled under foot, neither do I know whether it will be trampled under foot; but it would be known when your reply reaches England. All that we know is, that our petition has been laid before Lord Derby. The only reply that we got from him was, that he could do nothing until he received the Government reply. Lord Derby told us that, if ours was found to be wrong, we would be told so. It is correct that the power in the Island was given to the Government, but I had nothing to do with it. I had nothing to do with giving up the power to your Government. I have had nothing to say. I have been allowed no share in the management of matters for the Natives, and, although you may appoint me as a representative, everything that you instigated, and nothing that I recommended or instigated, was done. Your statement that all power was given by the Treaty of Waitangi to the Europeans is not correct. It was given to both of us. It was given to you, and to me, too. The reason I say it was given to me as well as to you is because it states in the Treaty of Waitangi that the Maori chiefs should be treated in the same way as the people of England, and given the same power. It was understood that the Maoris would be allowed to govern themselves in the same way that the Europeans are allowed to govern themselves. But lam very glad to hear the words that you have said—that is, that we should all join together in making the laws for the Native race. I want you to be quick in sending your answer to the petition. Your speech that you have made to-day shows that you are drawing near to us. Had previous Governments only agreed to do that.—to take the Maoris into consideration —there would have been no trouble, because the Maori race would have taken part in making the laws which govern them. With regard to Tawhiao's expression, "Do you give the Maoris a government for themselves ? " give it to the chiefs of the tribes, and the Island will be safe ; but let there be one head for us all. I will agree to that; and that one shall be to look after you and after me, that will be the Queen. It should not be Tawhiao, because he belongs to me—he is my king. If that is done, we shall both be safe. lam willing to accept the Queen as our head, and we shall be responsible to her for the management of our affairs in the same way as you are responsible to her. Give the government of the Maori race to the Maori chiefs. What harm is there in it? Has it ever been tried yet, to see whether evil will come of it or not? This has been the cause of all the trouble during past years: that the Maoris have not been allowed to try and govern themselves. That is the way that all the people here look at it. Paora Tuhaere : I support what Tawhiao has said, Now the Parliament makes laws; but

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will the Native representation be increased ? If the Minister will state that the Native representation will be raised so as to make it equal in numbers to that of the Europeans in the House, then that will be all right. If the House is allowed to make the law Ts, and then circulate the Acts afterwards, that would not receive support, as they would have been made by Europeans only. The proper way to do it would be as Tawhiao has suggested—that the Acts should be made by the Native race themselves outside the House, and that they should be taken into the House for ratification. With regard to the Treaty of Waitangi, it is not the Europeans outside of New Zealand who cause the trouble within it. It is the English people alone who cause the trouble; no outside foe. The Government seized the land and the foreshore ; it was not the Americans or any other foreign race ; and the lands that were confiscated were taken by England in consequence of the war. It is not right for us to remodel or alter the Treaty of Waitangi; but it should be left in the way in which our old people made it. We must leave it at that; in the way that Lord Derby told us, we will carry out the Treaty of Waitangi. Te Ngakau : I support what Tawhiao has said, that the tribes should manage their own affairs. I want to ask a question with regard to the statement you made, that you love the Maori race. Do you mean that it is the same kind that a younger brother should bear to an elder one ? I support what Tawhiao said about Kawhia—that you should go very carefully to work there. I have got something to say about Tawhiao's agreement to give up the railway. What he means by that is, that, when the railway goes through, he is to have all the management of the land in connection with it; that you are to have no power or claim on the lands on either side of the railway, but only the railway-line itself. I may say that I support what Paora said about the increased representation for the Maoris in the House. If you really show the love for us that you say you have, you will give us that increased representation. You will also give us a Maori Commissioner, to assist the Government Commissioner here. Wherever there is a European Commissioner let there be a Native Commissioner, too. I have seen in the Native Land Court that there are sometimes three or four Judges and only one Assessor. There should be an equal number of Assessors with the European Judges. If you agree to this, then we shall say that your love to us is real. If you do not agree I shall know that your love is not real. Mr. Ballance said: I will now reply to what has been said by Te Wheoro, Paora Tuhaere, and Te Ngakau. Te Wheoro has said that the Treaty of Waitangi was given to both races, but he thought that I said it was given only to the one race. He must have misunderstood me. I did not say so. I know the Treaty of Waitangi was given to both races, and I accept it as binding on both races. Te Wheoro asked that there should be no delay in sending the reply to the petition to England. I give him my promise that there shall be no delay. He says we should all join together in the making of laws, and that the chiefs should make the laws ; but does he mean that the people themselves shall have no voice in making the laws ? In electing members to the House, every person has a vote now. Does Major Te Wheoro propose that the vote should be taken from the people at large and given only to the chiefs ? If he does, Ido not agree with him there. Te Wheoro : No ; I do not mean that. Mr. Ballance : Then, again, all the people have an interest in the land. Shall only the chiefs exercise jurisdiction over the land in future? I could not agree to that. All the people have rights to the land who can prove their claims to it. Therefore I say that all the people shall have a voice ' in the government of the country. That is the principle upon which we have acted, and the principle upon which ■we intend to act in the future. You have all a voice in" the election of your own Committees. We propose to give you great powers of self-govern-ment over these, and not to take from you any of the powers you now possess. Te Wheoro has referred to the Queen, but I cannot say that I clearly understand him there ; but I was exceedingly glad to hear his expressions upon one point which I clearly understand,, that we all acknowledge the authority of the Queen. Te Wheoro thinks, however, that the Queen should rule from England in her own person—that is, to rule by her own authority alone; but the Queen does not rule in her own person and by her own authority alone. The Constitution of England requires the Queen should rule through her Advisers —through her Ministers. She never acts upon her own responsibility, but only upon the advice of her Ministers. The Queen and Parliament rule Great Britain. The Queen —through her representative, the Governor —and the Parliament of New Zealand rule New Zealand. That is the law of England as well as the law of this colony. Now I will refer to what Paul Tuhaere has said. He has asked me a straight question : Will the Native representation in the House be increased ? I reply to him that last session, as the papers will show, I advocated in the House an increase of the Native members. He asks that they should have the same representation as the Europeans. I reply to that, that they are entitled to the same representation in proportion to numbers. Paul Tuhaere : Yes. Mr. Ballance :■ lam glad to hear that Paul Tuhaere agrees with me there. I shall be prepared to advocate that in Parliament. Paul has referred to Acts made outside by the Natives, and taken into the Parliament for ratification. I wish to make myself clear upon this point. The Parliament, which is composed of Maoris and Europeans, has the supreme voice in the making of laws, and, while we are prepared to consult the people outside with regard to these Bills, still Parliament must have the supreme voice. I have said that, as a member of the Government, I am prepared to advocate that the people shall be consulted, and that proper respect shall be paid to their wishes and their wants; but the Parliament is the supreme law-making authority. Te Ngakau has made a very excellent speech, and he has said, in regard to the railway, he is quite prepared to allow the land to be taken over which the railway is to run, but the Government are not to interfere with the land on each side. I give my promise that the Government shall not interfere with the land on each side of the railway. All that we want is simply the land over which the railway runs, and, if the people are not prepared to give that land to the Government for the construction of the railway, seeing that it will benefit the land on each side, the Government are prepared to pay for it. I hope

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you are satisfied on that point. Then, Te Ngakau has said that it is not fair that there should be several European Judges sitting in the Native Land Court and only one Assessor. I agree with him very largely there, and, in future, it is my desire that there should only be one Judge and one Assessor sitting on each case. He has asked for a Native Commissioner. I will carefully consider that question; and I will not give him an answer now, but I will carefully consider it, and give him an answer on a future occasion. I have now given answers to all the questions you have put to me. I hope those answers are clear to your minds, but, if they are not clear, lam prepared to further explain them. Te Wheoro : With reference to your remarks about the voting—about the elections—l have nothing to say but that Ido not find fault with it. I want you to give the Maoris a Government for themselves, and let them manage matters concerning their lands and the-whole race, and the matters regarding elections will be included in that. We wish to be allowed a Government for ourselves, in the same way that the Europeans are allowed a Government for themselves ; and the people that you might appoint to govern the Maoris could be found out by the Maoris electing themselves by vote; and it would be the duty of that self-government so elected to see that none of the lands were wrongfully obtained by Europeans, and they would carry out the same principles that you have enunciated here. We do not wish to do away with your Parliament, but we wish the Maoris to have one Government under the European Government. The elections would still go on, but the Maoris would have a Government for themselves. When I mentioned the Queen being the head for us all, I did not mean that we were not to consider the Government here. What we want to do is to lay before the Government here those matters in connection with the Maori race, and the lands owned by us, after we have agreed amongst ourselves, and then take them to you to ratify. All the troubles that have occurred amongst us have been during the time that Governments have been in existence. Now we think it is time to make a trial as to whether it would not be well to lot the Maoris manage their own affairs for a time, and see what the result would be. That is the meaning of what I have said. I did not keep it from you when I was in the House; I mentioned it there. I then asked you to give the Maoris self-government, and you, personally, were agreeable to it; and, in consequence of that, I got the Maori members to be on the side of your Government; and that state of affairs existed at the time it was decided by the Maori people that I should go to England; and even when I was in England I considered that you were my friend in the House, and I felt sure that you would try and give the matter your best consideration, and do the best you could for the Natives. I have laid these matters before you previously; it is the policy of both of us. That is why I tell you these things. With regard to the railway —I have nothing to say about it. There are about a thousand chiefs; some say the railway is a bad thing, some say it is a good thing. Some may know all about it, but who can tell ? The only thing that is really apparent about it is, that the Maoris will suffer by the railway; but I will explain what Tawhiao meant. He said, " I will agree to the railway, but leave the management of the matter with me; lam the chief." Consider that. Do not let it cause you trouble of mind. I agree to your having the •line, if you give the management of affairs to him. This is the first time you and I have heard the statement Te Ngakau made about the Native Land Court. It is perfectly right, but it does not matter, as, if you had a thousand Assessors in the Native Land Court, they would be of no effect. You must not think that lam speaking at random. lam one of the first Assessors that sat in the Court. I have seen how wrongly these things are managed. You need not ask me for particulars ; it is sufficient for me to say that I have seen how wrongly they are managed. I have nothing to do with the remark of Te Ngakau about giving more Assessors, or making them equal in number to the Judges. That is a thing that has brought us to the grave. That is where our trouble lies —in this Assessor business. It has caused trouble in the past, and is the cause of trouble now. It would appear, when a block was going through the Native Land Court, as if the land was owned by the Court itself, and not by the litigants. That is why I would not have anything more to do with it—because I saw the evil in connection with it. That is why I am qualified to speak as I do, because I took part in it myself. Mr. Ballance : I understand from Major Te Wheoro that he recognizes that the Parliament of this colony is supreme, and I am glad we are so far agreed; but he wants under that Parliament one Government for the Natives. But there cannot be a separate Government for the Natives under that Parliament, any more than there can be a separate Government for the Europeans. The Native people of this Island, although I have no doubt they have a great respect for Major Te Wheoro, would not be prepared to accept his rule. The different tribes have different wishes in this matter. My firm belief is that nineteen out of twenty of all the Natives desire to live under the Government, and Parliament, and institutions of this colony. What they require above all things is justice and fairness in the consideration of their interests, and that I say Parliament and the Government are prepared to give them. When he comes to see the disposition of the Parliament to extend local government among the people, and to do justice by them, he will come to accept what I have said to-day as true. Te Wheoro : Hear, hear. Patara te Tuhi asked for tho use of the " Hinernoa " to bring Natives to a meeting to be held a Whatiwhatihoe on the 12th March. Mr. Ballance said he would refer the proposal to the Government for an answer.

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The Hon. Mr. Ballance met the Maobis of the Haueaki Distbict at Parawai, on the 11th February, 1885.

The Maoris welcomed the Minister by singing a tvaiata, and with the usual speeches. Mr. Ballance, in responding to the welcome, said : 1 thank you for the welcome which you have given me to-day. I reciprocate the sentiment of the last speaker that the two races are one, and that they are brought to each other more and more every day in those things which make a united people. The question of language is nothing, and will be cured in time; as your young people are educated in the public schools of the colony they will grow up to speak the same language as the majority of the people of this colony. I was particularly pleased with the way in which I was received.—in the singing of a hymn. I venture to think that no Minister of the Crown has ever been paid such a compliment before, for I am informed that the name of every member of the present Government was included in that hymn. It was a compliment intended on the part of the poet, and was well sustained by our friends the choir who sung the hymn on this occasion. I can assure you that that is a compliment that lam never likely to forget. One speaker has referred to the question of roads and to grievances. I will not go into matters of business to-day—those questions will be discussed to-morrow, when we have plenty of time; but I should just like to say this on the present occasion : that roads are necessary for the civilization of both the European and the Native, and I hope it will be made clear to your minds that it. is not contrary to your best interests that roads should be made through the country. The particular grievances which have been referred to we will discuss on another occasion. I was particularly pleased to meet my old friend, Hoani Nahe, on the present occasion. We have sat in Parliament together. I will venture to say that no Native representative has ever been more faithful or more active in the discharge of his duties, and I regret exceedingly that he is no longer a member of the Legislature. This is the first occasion on which I have visited the Thames. I have often heard of the loyalty of the Native people of the Thames, and I am sure that the one or two occasions on which wrong has been done—on which lives have been lost—are exceptions to the general rule, and do not affect the loyalty of the people as a whole. I say, in reference to that subject, that there is no occasion for violence; that the laws of the colony are ample to redress all grievances, and I bring you this message : that, as far as I am concerned, I am willing to discuss all questions of difference between us with the view of arriving at a just solution of all grievances that may exist. lam glad to meet you all on the present occasion, and wish you all the happiness that may be in store for you. You must all have derived great advantages from the stores of wealth which have been produced from the soil in this part of the country. You must recognize that the advent of the Europeans in this part of the country has brought you all much wealth and much happiness. I am perfectly sure that nothing will arise in the future to disturb the contentment which at present prevails. Once again I thank you for the welcome which you have given me.

Notes of an Interview between the Hon. Mr. Ballance and the Thames Native Committee, 12th February, 1885. Mr. Ballance : I have great pleasure in meeting the Native Committee of the Hauraki District. The Committee are charged with certain duties and some responsibility, and I recognize the great importance of the Committee in looking after the interests of the people. The Committee may do a great deal of good in curing abuses, remedying grievances, and seeing that no one is injured. I propose, with regard to the surveys, which is a very important thing, surveys of land intended to be passed through the Native Land Court, to have copies of all applications for surveys sent to the Chairman of the Native Committee, so that no case will be brought secretly before the Court without the Committee knowing. I would like the Chairman to represent to the Government the grievances of the people in his own district, and that matters affecting the people should be brought before the Committee, so that they might be transmitted to the Government through the Chairman. With regard to the hearing of civil cases, I propose that they should have jurisdiction up to a certain amount; but that agreement shall not be required before the case is brought before the Committee : that, if one Native sues another for a small debt, he shall be compelled to bring it before the Committee, and the Committee shall decide upon it. There is one objection, that is, it is sometimes difficult to get the whole of the Committee together. It might be desirable that the Chairman and two or three members of the Committee should be appointed to sit upon these cases. Of course there would be no objection to the whole of the Committee sitting, but that would be in cases where it would be inconvenient for the whole of them to come together. I would like the Committee to report also upon cases which are going before the Native Land Court. It is the intention of the Government next session to bring in a Bill to deal with Native Lands. We propose that, when the owners of a block of land have been found out by the Native Committee, that a Committee shall be appointed from those owners of, say, seven members, and that that Committee shall have the power of dealing with the land in the block where there are numerous owners, that is to say, if there are more than twenty owners. That Committee is different from this Committee. Then we shall have a Board appointed for a district, to sell or lease the land. We intend that the Board shall consist of three members, one European, to be appointed by the Governor, the Chairman of the District Committee, and one Native, to be nominated by the Governor. When the local Committee shall wish to sell or lease a portion of their block, they will apply to the Board; and then the Committee would arrange with the Board for the cost of surveys and for roads; and then the Board would proceed to dispose of the land in accordance with the wishes of the Committee. If the majority of the owners of the block objected to the action of the Committee they might, by petition, stop the action of the Committee, and the Committee would have no power to proceed any further. This will give the people power to deal with their own lands, the Government acting as mediator and assisting the Natives, but giving the people them-

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selves the right to say what shall be done with their own lands. Then, the land shall bo disposed of in accordance with the land laws of the colony. For instance, land will not be allowed to be sold in large blocks if it is agricultural land. There will be a limit placed on the size of the blocks, in order that there may be a large population placed on the land. The Government think that they have a right, for the good of both races, to prevent what is called " land monopoly for the few;" and therefore the land shall be cut up into the smallest areas suitable for settlement. That is the limitation which the Government put upon the powers of the Committees and of the people. Hoani Nahe (Chairman of the Committee) : said that he was pleased and satisfied with what the Native Minister had said. He said that the Committee wished that, before the Bill referred to by Mr. Ballance was brought in, it should be circulated amongst the Natives. They were very pleased to hear that they were to be allowed to manage their lands themselves. It was his opinion that, if the preliminary investigation of land were gone into by the Native Committee, it would be much easier for the Native Land Court, and thereby the Maoris would be relieved of the expenses they were now put to in attending Court, and paying Court fees, &c. The Committee had great objection to the action of the Native Land Court in charging fees. They had heard that the Natives of the Arawa had got licenses to purchase guns and ammunition, and they had heard that the reason the Arawas were so anxious to get guns was to avenge the murder of Kereopa, who was murdered by Natives some time ago. That was why they sent a notice concerning this matter to the newspaper, and also one to Mr. Wilkinson. They suggest that applications from the Arawas to purchase guns should be referred to the Native Committee. He asked whether it would be advisable for the Hauraki Committee to deal with matters in the Waikato and vice versa. Hoani Nahe then read some of the minutes at the last meeting of the Committee, one of which was where they wished to get some revenue to carry on their work and pay for stationery, and also with reference to the payment of the clerk and Chairman of the Committee. It was proposed that the Chairman should be allowed to frank letters on public service, also that the Committee should have power to issue summonses to bring anybody before it. If an amending Act to the Native Committees Act were passed there ought to be a clause inserted so that, whenever a person falls out of the Committee, there should be the power to elect another in his place. Tamati Paipa spoke with reference to a dispute that existed between himself and Mr. Alley about the boundary-line of Hikutaia No. 1. He stated that Sir F. Whitaker promised to settle the dispute. Several surveyers had been to survey the line. Mr. Ballance said it was understood in the Native Department that Sir F. Whitaker had settled the whole dispute. Tamati Paipa said that the boundary-line of Hikutaia No. 1 had not been settled. Hikutaia No. 1 was surveyed and went through the Court, and was stibdivided, some years ago, some of the land going to the Government, and some being left as Native Eeserves. Mr. Ballance : I am very much pleased at the business-like way in which the Chairman, Hoani Nahe, has brought before me the several matters relating to the Committee. It shows that they have given a considerable amount of attention to the duties pertaining to the office, and it has confirmed me in the opinion that the Committees are calculated to materially assist in the administration of the law in matters relating to their own people. I will now deal with the various questions that have been brought forward, one by one. It is quite right that copies of Bills relating to the Native race should be extensively circulated amongst them before being introduced into the Legislature, and I purpose sending to the Chairmen of the different Native Committees copies of the Bills which we intend to introduce into the House next session—that is to say, copies of the more important measures, for sometimes there are Bills brought in with very short notice, and we might not have time to circulate those Bills amongst the people. Those are Bills, generally, of small importance, and all the principal Bills I shall have circulated amongst them. I agree that the Committees may materially assist the Land Court in inquiring into cases and making the preliminary investigation required of them by the present Act. The Government have long been of opinion that the expenses of the Native Land Court are too great, and various measures have been taken for the purpose of reducing them. I think the action of the Committees themselves may lead to the reduction of those expenses. I feel myself shocked and disgusted at the enormous expenses attending the passing of some blocks through the Native Land Court, for it is a notorious fact that some of the blocks have been entirely eaten up by the expenses of lawyers and agents, and in various other ways, the Natives deriving no benefit whatever from the sale of their lands, while their lands have gone from them for ever. The object of the Government is to remedy these things. I heard what Hoani Nahe said about the Arawas trying to obtain licenses for guns and ammunition for the purpose of making war upon some neighbouring tribe. I confess that I was very much surprised at that statement, for I-was under the impression that the Arawas themselves were exceedingly loyal people, and I cannot now suppose that that feeling of revenge or retaliation is general amongst them, or that there is any general desire to shed blood. Perhaps what Hoani Nahe refers to is the desire of a few men, but very few. The Arawas know that Kereopa was justly punished according to law for the great crime he had committed, taking the life of the Eev. Mr. Volckner; and I believe that the Arawas themselves as a body are perfectly satisfied with the course that the law took in that case; but lam very much obliged to Hoani Nahe for mentioning the matter, and I am quite sure that Mr. Kenrick will be cautious in issuing licenses, making due inquiry into the character of the people who apply for them. I also agree with the suggestion made by Hoani Nahe that Mr. Kenrick, when there is any doubt in his mind, should take the advice of the Native Committee. Eeference has been made to a very delicate matter, viz., the Committee of one district interfering in another district. You will see yourselves that, if the Committee of one district interferes in another district, it would lead to a great deal of jealousy, and might lead to trouble ; but it might be desirable in some cases, where matters affected both districts, or where the people of one district were affected by

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the action of both Committees, that the Chairmen of the two Committees should meet together and discuss the matter amongst themselves in a friendly manner. In that way they might be able to remove the difficulty. The matter of the expenses of the Committee is one that lam now considering. I have already given instructions that the stationery to be used by the Committee for purely Committee purposes, be supplied by the Government free of any charge. With regard to the revenue of the Committee for general purposes, that is now under consideration, and I shall not be long before coming to a decision. As to the right of the Chairman to frank letters, I shall bring that before the Postmaster-General and consult him upon the point. With regard to the right of the Committee to issue summonses, the Act gives them- power now only to deal with civil cases, and not with criminal. I am very doubtful whether the time has come for the Committee to deal with criminal cases. I think the ordinary Courts should continue to do that work. What I referred to in giving the Committee larger powers to deal with small debt cases was to give them there larger power, and, if possible, to increase the amount for which they can sue. I quite agree with what Hoani Nahe said about filling up the vacancies caused by members falling out of the Committee. That is a power possessed by all local bodies, with the exception of the Committees, and shall be one of the provisions in the Bill—that when a member falls out there shall be the right of re-election immediately. I now have touched upon all the different questions brought forward by the Committee, and I shall just say, in conclusion, with regard to what has been said by Tamati with regard to Hikutaia Block, that I am not acquainted with all the facts, but I shall make inquiry into them, and I hope the affair can be arranged without much trouble. I trust the Committee will themselves assist in getting the matter brought to an amicable conclusion.

Notes of a Meeting held at Paeawai, Thames, on the 12th February, 1885, between the Hon. Mr. Ballancb and the Haubaki Natives. Ha/pi Bewi said : The first question is regarding Komata (Te Puke Block at Ohinemuri), a block that was purchased wrongfully by Mr. Thorpe. That portion of land is where the steamer at present lands passengers and goods. Tukukino owns that piece of land, and he is asserting his ownership. He built a fence on his land, which was agreed to by Mr. Mackay. It overlaps Mr. Thorpe's boundary. He built a fence to show that that piece had been taken wrongfully, and .1 wish to draw the attention of the Native Minister to the fact that it has wrongfully come into Mr. Thorpe's possession. Other disputes have been settled, and the Natives at Hikutaia have got their lands back; but this piece has not been settled yet. Tukukino still persists in his claim to it. Another matter is in connection with Mackaytown. It is four years since it was leased. It was exempted from the gold field. The main portion of the land in that district has been bought by the Government, but a portion has been retained by the Maoris. Now, we consider that we own Mackaytown, and as it has been leased for four years, we consider that the Government should pay us the rent. There are twenty-two shareholders who have not signed, and they want to get their proportion. The difficulty is, that the interests have not been subdivided yet, as it is not known which is the Government's and which is the Natives'. The third matter is, the topw-places on the Owharoa Block. Lots of applications have been made for these, but they have never been agreed to. Another matter is that the reserves that were fixed at Waihi are useless, because they are on the mountain and cannot be cultivated, and I ask you to exchange them for some lands on the flat, where we can make use of them. These lands will do for Europeans who have cattle or sheep ; but, as we have no cattle, we want lands that we can cultivate. Another matter is the tramway at Waihi Gold Fields. Ido not know why the revenue from that is not paid to the Maoris. There was fifty acres put on one side for us, but there is no timber on it at all. We want that substituted for a piece within the Ohinemuri No. 7 Block, on which there is some firewood and some timber. If it is given to us within Ohinemuri No. 7, we can then get a supply of fencing and other timber. There is a road over the portion that we want, but the bridge is broken at present; but the Europeans are going to repair it. There is a piece called Marutatai, at Te Aroha, promised to us, but it was not carried, out. That is all I have got for you. I will keep some back for some other Minister. When you reply will you commence with Tukukino? Whatever matters you agree to we want in writing. Haora Ta/reranui: lam going to talk to you about the troubles of the Ngatitamatera, the tribe living at Ohinemuri. One of our troubles is connected with our reserves in the Waikawau Block. A portion of that Waikawau Block was awarded to the Government. It was sold to the Government : a portion was returned to the Maoris. After the awards were made in favour of the Maoris for the reserves, the Maoris had to pay for the surveys of them. I ask that you will do away with those claims for payment by the Natives for the surveys of the reserves, and that the Crown grants be ordered to issue to the Natives. There was one block called Waiaro which was not included in the Government survey, and we were called upon to pay for it. The Government Agent, when the land went through the Court, told the Natives that the Government would pay for all the surveys. The Government Agent was Mr. James Mackay. It was a verbal statement. It was seeing that certain reserves had been made in other places, and the Natives had not been charged for them, and it was promised that they would not be charged, for the surveys in this block. With regard to the surveys in the Waikawau Block, I ask that the Crown grant should issue. Another application that we make to you. is, that the Native owners of the reserve should have power to grant leases to the Europeans who wish to occupy them. Another application of ours is concerning the Native reserves in the Ohinemuri Block ; when the reserves were marked off by the Native Land Court it was on the map ; we considered that they were not in the 'exact positions that they would turn out to be when they came to be surveyed. We asked that, when the surveyor went on the ground, one of our people should go with him and point out the tapus, &c.; but, when the surveys took place, we' were not informed of it. We discovered afterwards that the reserves had been made in

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different places to where we intended. All these matters are in Mr. Smith's Survey Department, and he can explain about them. I wish that you would consider the matter so as to have it set right. One of the reserves is put on the edge of the boundary of the gold fields. The reason why it was put there was that there was some firewood. When the survey of the reserve was finished, it was found that it did not include the firewood at all, and now we cannot get this timber that we want. We want you to try and have the matter set right for us. I ask that the Crown grants of the reserves in the Ohinemuri Block shall issue to us. Now I will cease to talk about those matters; I will refer to the roads. There is one road that goes to Tauranga; it goes through Te Paeroa Township. There is a Native settlement of twenty acres in that locality; there is also some European land in that locality. Within the twenty acres of the Maori block is a sacred place; there were some bodies buried there a long time ago, and it is still used as a burial-ground; a portion of it is precipitous. The Council have determined to run a road right through the Native cultivations. The Maoris say, " No; it should not be so, because you take land from us that is available for cultivation." The Council say, "We want to do it in order to make the road straight." Now, there is an European block close to it; the road goes over it, but the road is bent, and the Council never attempted there to straighten it; but over this Maori land they straighten it by taking it through the land. The portion where the road goes over the Maori land is called "Te Pure-o-te Rangi." Beyond that twenty-acre block is another settlement of the Natives, about three or four acres, and the road goes right through it and takes it nearly all away ; and I ask you to give some consideration to this matter. I bring this before you because the Maoris are very incapable of doing any work for their living: the Maori means of support is being able to cultivate potatoes and other food for themselves. If this twenty-acre block is spoiled by the road, and also the four-acre block, where is the land on which the Maoris are to cultivate? The Natives do not agree that the roads should be opened there. There is another road that leads from Paeroa to Te Aroha—that is, the new road they are laying off. They have run it right through the centre of the native lands :as soon as ever they came to a block owned by Europeans, they turned it off directly and ran it through a Native block—they avoided the European block. When they got to a piece owned by Mr. Bennett, they took only a very small portion indeed off it. As soon as they crossed the river, directly on the other side was a Native block of land all under cultivation, and they ran it right through that. This block on the other side of the river is about three acres, and the road goes right through it. The present road that goes to Te Aroha goes over the block called " Te Rawhitiroa," and this new road is now laid parallel with it. [A map was then produced by Mr. Cheal, District Surveyor, who explained the position of the road m question.] Mr. Ballance said that a deviation of the road should be made to suit the Natives; and, in future, surveyors would be instructed to take the road with the least possible injury to the Native cultivations. Haora Tareranui continued : Another matter is, that we want to have a pound erected. The reason why we ask for a pound is that we can see plainly that there will soon be trouble on account of the absence of a pound. The Europeans' cattle are running over our land and breaking into our fences, and as soon as they break through the fences they get into the cultivations and destroy all the food. We have disputes with the Europeans about these matters, but because we obey the law we do not come to blows over it. Some time ago the Europeans wanted a pound in Paeroa, and one was built, but it was never authorized. The Maoris consider that the reason the pound was never given effect to was, because the Europeans saw that they had very little land to run their cattle on, and they would have to run them on the Maori land, and they would not have the pound, as it might be used for their own cattle. If you were to send anybody up there you would most likely find that the cattle will have broken into the settlements and have eaten the food. The fences are built in the same way as the European fences, but the European cattle get in; therefore, we ask that you will authorize a pound to be erected there. If you authorize a pound to be erected there, anything that is impounded should be advertised both in English and Maori: the reason I ask this is, that pakehas are not the only owners of cattle, and Maories would like to know if any of their own stock get impounded. It has been seen that Maoris lost their horses altogether by having them impounded here : they did not know anything about it, and their horses were sold. This is a personal matter of my own : Some time ago I made a claim for compensation on account of land during Sir Donald McLean's time. Sir Donald McLean said to me, " Let it be till Igo to Waikato, and if I hear from the Waikato chiefs that you have any claim to the land you shall have compensation." After Sir Donald McLean's death a meeting took place at Cambridge; that was in 1876 ; Dr. Pollen was there as Native Minister. Dr. Pollen said at that meeting, that everything that Sir Donald McLean had promised he would carry out; but we were to meet him in the schoolhouse and lay our matters of complaint before him there. I went over to this schoolhouse, and, in the midst of the chiefs of Waikato and Ngatihaua and some others that were there, I said openly to him, " Here is the word that Sir Donald McLean said to me. He promised me that when he got to Waikato he would inquire if I had any claims to Waikato lands. He told me that if the Waikato chiefs agreed that I had any claim to Waikato lands he would give me some compensation for the loss of them;" and when I made this statement all the chiefs that were in the schoolhouse at the time acknowledged that I had claims. Dr. Pollen then asked me who was present at the time Sir Donald McLean made this promise. I said Mr. Puckey was; and Dr. Pollen said, "I will refer the matter to Mr. Puckey." After I came back I saw Mr. Puckey, and we sent numerous letters to the Premier. Subsequent to that, Ido not remember the year, Sir F. Whitaker came to Grahamstown, and Mr. Puckey and myself saw him about it. Sir I<\ Whitaker said to me, " Have you not got any land?" I replied to him by saying, " Because I have land here should I lose land that I had in the Waikato?" After that Mr. Sheehan was Native Minister. I went to Cambridge—l forget the year—and I told Mr. Sheehan all about this matter. He told me that after he had been to Auckland and returned to Cambridge, then he would settle it. He went to Auckland, but I did not 5—G. 1.

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see him after that up to the time that he went out of office. After that I saw Mr. Bryce; it was in 1882, in the month of January. I laid the matter before him at Ohinemuri, and he told me that he would let it stand over till he got to Wellington. After he got to Wellington I waited to hear from him. After a long delay I wrote a letter to Mr. Wilkinson, saying that I was waiting for Mr. Bryce's reply. Mr. Wilkinson sent that letter to Mr. Bryce, and Mr, Bryce replied. There is a statement in that letter that Mr. Bryce will go into it when he comes north. When I heard that he had arrived in Auckland I went to see him, but he would have nothing to say to me. I saw in Hansard a statement by Mr. Bryce that all applications for compensation for Waikato lands should not be considered. Therefore I consider that Mr. Bryce has dealt treacherously with mo. Therefore I apply to you to give effect to my application. The writings in connection with it are in Mr. Wilkinson's possession, or in somebody else's. Hapi Bewi said that he had forgotten to mention that there was another tapu on the Ohinemuri No. 7 Block. It has been through the Court; five acres was laid off for the tapu. A sawmill has been erected on this tapu. Tukukino said he would commence from the time of Sir Donald McLean. Sir Donald McLean said to him, "I will leave the land to you and to Te Hira; all I want is the gold—that is for Europeans. If they do not find any gold they go away. All they want to do is to go and search for it. If there is any they will remain and dig." The reason he was in opposition to the Government was on account of land. That is why he obstructed in those days. The Government showed him no consideration when he at last gave up to Mr. Wilkinson. My application to you now is that the place where my ancestors are buried should be given back to me; that place is where the steamer lands on the bank of the river. What I would like would be to have the portion given to me from where the steamer goes on shore to the Komata River. You are the Minister for the Natives, that is why I speak to you about this matter. If you will agree to that will you put it in writing ? All I ask for is ten acres there. There is another matter I want to speak about—namely, the European who is living near me. At last I find out how bad an European can be. Had it not been that I [addressing Mr. Wilkinson] coiisidered the way you and I had arranged matters we should have come to blows. The pakeha's name is White. This European killed all my pigs without any reason, but I instructed my people not to molest him because it had been said that if any trouble were to occur in Hauraki Tukukino would be the cause of it. [Tukukino thought that trouble of that sort should be done away with and that the European should be done away with. Tukukino then referred to the timber within the gold fields, at a place called Waitekauri, and said he had a promise from Sir Donald McLean that it should be left for him personally, and he still holds to his claim, as he has never received payment for it, and the timber on the land here has all been paid for and cut; but the timber in the Ohinemuri Block, extending as far as Hikutaia, has never been paid for. He asks that the Government should give him payment for it. It is at a place called Waitekauri, at Ohinemuri. Maritoto is close to it. He includes them both in his remarks. He has often referred to this matter before, and will persist in his claim until he gets some satisfaction. Another matter refers to the stones in the Komata Creek. The Europeans take them out of the creek without giving any recompense for them. When they first commenced to take the stones they took them from the land owned by Te Moananui, and they (Europeans and Maoris) quarrelled about it. They assaulted each other, and the Natives took the stones that the Europeans had got in a cart, and threw them all out. The owner of the stones did not arrange with the Europeans about them, but some other people took upon themselves to make the arrangement. After they had made this arrangement they took payment on account.] Haora Tareranui said that he would explain what Tukukino meant. These lands are not passed through the Court; the arrangement was made by some Natives who professed to have a claim to the land. Moananui said that had the land been through the Court it would have been all right for the people who claimed it to sell the stones. So the interpreter was told that they should go and buy stones from land which had been through the Court and of which the owners are known. The stones were wrongfully purchased, extending up to a place called Kurere, which is not through the Court. The trouble is that some Maoris give up the stones and others refuse to do so. The arrangement that he (Haora) wants to make is, that the contractors should get the stones and not pay any of the purchase-money, but an arrangement should be made between the people who sell the stones and the people who do not want to sell them that the money should be paid into the bank. The interpreter got some friends on the part of those who wanted to take money for the stones, and they arranged it by taking money on account. The reason Tukukino referred to it was because he was afraid that the principle should continue to be in existence. At the time of the quarrel with the Europeans Mr. William Nicholls, the interpreter, said there was no law about the matter at all. Here a Native said to Nicholls, "If there is no law about it I can shoot you, and there will be no trouble about it." Mr. Ballance: I have heard the speeches which you have all made upon a great number of subjects to-day. You have gone into a great many matters of detail with regard to roads and reserves. Many of these details are not known to me, and will require that they should be carefully inquired into before any decision is arrived at. The first speaker referred to Komata, which is held under Crown grant. He must be aware that a Crown grant cannot be easily disturbed; in fact, it cannot be disturbed at all. Tukukino claims to have some right to the land on the ground that it is a tapu, or sacred place. Why was the land sold in the first instance ; and why did he not put in his claim at the time ? However, that shall not provent inquiry for the purpose of ascertaining whether Tukukino has any just claim to the land. I am sorry to hear that Tukukino cannot live on friendly terms with his neighbour, and that he has met with the worst European in the land. Tukukino may be slightly prejudiced in this case, and has measured the badness of the man by the strength of his own convictions and claims. I am glad, however, to hear that Tukukino did not fight the European when he threatened him. In that instance the Maori showed himself much superior to the pakeha; and I admire Tukukino greatly for his forbearance, for that is a

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quality, from what I had heard, which is quite opposed to Tukukiuo's character; and now I hope that in future all these questions will be settled quietly and peaceably after discussion, and in the way that Tukukino proposes they should be settled to-day. I will make inquiry into the matters he has referred to, and see, if possible, that justice be done. The next question is the rents derived from the reserves and land at Mackaytown. I recognize that the Maoris are entitled to the rents from the land which has not yet been acquired by the Government from the Natives; it is only fair that these rents should be paid to them, and I will see that they are paid. References have also been made to the tapus in various blocks of land. I can only say, with regard to those, that they will be carefully looked into; and, if the Natives are suffering any injustice in respect of these tapus, the remedy will be applied. It is impossible for me to-day to give any more positive reply until they have been inquired into. Hapi Bewi has referred to reserves at Waihi, which, he says, are useless, and would like to have exchanged. I will also inquire into that subject; but I think that some application ought to have been made sooner for the exchange of these reserves. It is a very difficult thing to affect reserves after they are once made and after the surveys have taken place. If there has been any mistake in the boundaries of these reserves—in excluding the timber which the Maoris reasonably expected—l shall take care that the surveys are rectified. Then reference has again been made to the tramway, and the Natives think that they should receive a portion of the money from the tramway running over Native land. lam inclined to agree with them that they are entitled to this money; and that grievance also shall be remedied. With regard to the timber reserve at Ohinemuri, I am told that some mistake has been made in the matter, and I will see what can be done in the way of redressing that grievance. Application has been made by Haora with regard to doing away with surveys for certain reserves at Waikawau. I admit that the usual rule is that, when reserves are set aside for Natives, the surveys shall be done at the expense of the Government. Ido not know why an exception was made in this case; but I will refer the question to the Surveyor-General, and ask him why the Maoris are charged with the cost of the surveys; and I will inform them of the result of the inquiry. Also reference has been made to the granting of leases to Europeans ; the Natives wish to have the power to lease their own lands. lam expressing my own opinion when I say that I think it is desirable to give the Natives every facility for leasing their own lands to Europeans. The Europeans can, in the great majority of cases, occupy the Native lands with great benefit both to the Natives and to themselves ; and it is desirable that the Natives, where they wish to do so, should be drawing rents for leases of these lands. Wherever, therefore, applications are received from the Natives to lease their own lands, those applications will be received with favour ; and, subject to restrictions to prevent abuse, we shall assist the Natives in leasing the lands. I have heard what has been said with regard to the question of roads which have been taken through some of the reserves and cultivations. Instructions have been given to the surveyors in several cases to avoid, as far as possible, roads being taken through cultivations. If in any case roads have been taken through cultivations and through reserves where they could have been taken otherwise, it has been done there contrary to instructions, or because there was no better line for the road. In one case, where the plan of the road was produced, it was shown by the surveyor that the road was taken in that direction because it would be a better line of road —that is, it would save a great distance ; but good was accomplished, because a slight deviation was suggested by the surveyor which will, to a large extent, meet the objections which have been raised; and I propose that in all cases the matter should be referred in the first instance to the Native Committee, and the Chairman of the Native Committee should bring the matter before the Chief Surveyor of the district or before the Eesident Magistrate, and that inquiry shall take place into the alleged grievance. An application has been made for a pound. When I was in the Waikato an application was made that there should be no pound. I suppose a desire for a pound is an indication of the advancing civilization of the Natives of this part of the country. I, however, have no power to grant the request which has been made for a pound: that must be done by the local body —by the Eoad Board or by the County Council; and you must apply to the local body to grant you a pound. If cattle trespass upon your land you have a right by law to sue for trespass ; and I am informed that you have not been slow to avail yourselves of the privilege in the past : that Haora, who made the request for a pound, has himself been successful in suing where cattle have trespassed upon his land. There is also a provision here in the amending Act which gives you power to impound cattle upon your own land ; and this provision will be explained to you afterwards by Mr. Wilkinson. Now, reference has been made to a claim for compensation on the part of Haora, which, he says, was promised to him by Sir Donald McLean. He has shown that he has followed up his claim with all diligence and energy ; and he has convinced me also that Sir Donald McLean gave him a sort of promise. I will look further into this matter, and see what can be done. It is probable that I shall advise him to send a petition down to the House, which is the proper course to be taken in all these cases. Now I think it was Tukukino who had referred to the timber at Waitekauri; Ido not know what right he has to the timber there. I would like to have a conversation with him upon the subject after the meeting is over ; and, if he can convince me that he has any right to those trees, I shall see that justice is done in the matter. I cannot see that very much injury has been done in taking the stones from the creek. The Natives sued the County Council, obtained a judgment, and were successful. The only grievance has arisen where the land had not passed through the Court, and where the wrong person has sold the right to take the stones. I think, however, it is very probable that they can arrange that matter among themselves. I would suggest that they should refer it to the Chairman of the Native Committee to decide between them. Where the land was passed through the Court, then the owners will have been ascertained, and there is no fear of any injury being done. That is one reason why the Natives themselves should be anxious that the land should be passed through the Court. In reference to this subject, Taipari has asked that a Court should sit here as soon as possible; and I have promised that I shall do all that is in my power, and get a sitting of the Court here at no distant date, I have taken steps also that the expense of putting land

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through the Court shall be very much lessened in future, so that injury will not be done to the Natives in taking away their land by indirect means. On all these various questions that you have raised to-day I shall take some steps by making inquiry and seeing that the merits of the case are properly ascertained. If I cannot grant your request I shall let you know, and where I can grant your requests I shall be happy to do so. Paora Tiunga said that he was one of the persons who caused trouble in connection with the survey of the Piako Block. The reason he objected to the survey was that he saw that trouble would ensue to the people owning the land. An arrangement has been made with the Ngatimaru, and they have laid off their boundary line ; but as soon 'as their line arrived at the Ngatihako boundary he (Paora) stopped it. The reason he obstructed it was that lie was not aware that the Ngatihako had any liabilities with the Government in respect of their part. Pineaha te Wharekohai said that he had had no Government money on account of the Piako Block. The Ngatimaru had no money on account of theirs, and the Ngatihako had none on account of their share. The Ngatipaoa had the money. Another question is about the railway that goes round a block called Te Eae-o-te Papa. If the railway goes round there he wants to have a clear arrangement made first, as he is not clear about them taking the railway in that place. He complains about the snags that have been taken out of the Waihou Eiver; that is, where they get the eels from. He held on, and would not give them up until Mr. Bryce came, who took them away by force. The Government, through Mr. Bryce, took those things away, and gave no consideration for them. He (Te "Wharekohai) will have to fell a kahikatea and let it fall into the river so as to make a place for the eels. Mr. Bryce paid the people who worked in the creek to take those things out, but the owners of them received no consideration. Te Wharekohai said that this was causing him a great deal of darkness, and if something was not done he would have to fill up that river again with trees. Now the steamers that get up the rivers are continually carrying away the banks ; and some Europeans cut down a tree that had some dead bodies in the branches, and they drifted away in the river. Another complaint is about a block of land called Te Bito-o-te Atua. The person who got it was not an owner, and the people who owned it were absent from the Court, and they did not get it. There is another block called Pohututaka, of which Te Wharekohai and his people are the owners, but it was passed through the Court and others got it. Another is Waihou No. 4 Block, which was passed through the Court and given to some neople other than the owners. He has considered for a number of years past, and decided not to break the law, so he refers these matters to the Native Minister. This Waihou No. &is out of their hands without any good reason. The case was decided in his absence. Mr. Battance : I will now reply to Paora, as he says he desires to go away. He has complained that the survey might affect his interests in the Piako Block, but he has not shown it clearly. How can the interests of the Ngatihako Tribe be ascertained unless the survey is first made ? It is the Court that has to ascertain the title, and the Court cannot proceed to ascertain the title until the survey has been made. The fact that he has not received money, and that some have received money, would not affect his claims, for the Court would have power to cut out his block and hand it over to him, giving the other portions to the tribes who had sold their land and received the money. I would, therefore, ask him to reconsider the matter, and see whether he would consent to the survey, and to the Court sitting to ascertain his title. The Government do not wish to press this matter, but will give time for discussion, and I hope they will quickly arrange among themselves so as to allow the survey to go on and the Court to sit. Eeference has been made to the survey for the line of railway over the land owned by the speaker. How could the railway affect his land ? His land would remain to him after the railway was made, and be more valuable than it was before. The tribes in all parts of the Island are asking for railways, because they know that the railways give increased value to the land. lam afraid, therefore, that our friend is behind the times in objecting to railways. If he will only make inquiry he will see that the making of the railway does not take the land from him. Nothing can dispossess him of the land to which he is entitled; and I strongly advise him to ask that the railway be pushed on before he dies, although I can see that he will live many years yet. I am glad to hear from him that he has considered the advisability of upholding the law. I can assure him in regard to that statement that he is a very much better man than before, for the law will protect both him and his land, and allow not one single acre of land to be taken from him without fair compensation for it. If land were taken on which to build the railway he would be paid for that land according to its value, and therefore he would be a richer man after the railway is made than before. As to the lifting of snags out of the Waihou Eiver for the purpose of improving the navigation, I am sure he will see that that must be a great benefit to him if he has got land on the banks of the river. When I was up the Wanganui Eiver all the Maoris on each side of the river asked that the snags should be taken out of it; they were willing that the eel-weirs should be all removed in order that the steamers might go up and down. Now the value of their lands would be greatly increased, and food, which was scarce before, would be enormously increased. Then, again, his young men would find employment upon the railways and receive money; that would buy sufficient food for them without eels. These are the opinions of the most enlightened amongst the Natives at the present time. He complains that the Land Court has decided adversely to him in some claims, but he admits that he was absent; the responsibility there rests on his own shoulders. Why was he absent? If he had been there he might have maintained his title. The Court is not responsible for absent people ; they ought to look after their own rights. In order to prevent people from being taken by surprise in future I have given instructions that all applications to bring land before the Court shall be submitted to the Native Committee.of the district, so that in future the people will be able to learn from the Committee whether any of their lands are affected. He will see, therefore, that in all these matters ample provision has been made for the protection of himself and his people. Hoani Nahe said that he would speak about some things that Ngatimaru wished to refer to the Minister. One is the Kauaeranga Bridge. The Maoris have no road to their land, but they have

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to go on the railway-line to get to the road, Mr. Spencer's land lying between them and the road. He asks that some arrangement might be made by which they can get a right-of-way through this man's land to the main road. There is a block of land owned by a Maori through which four roads have been taken. These roads were taken over the block of land not as public roads but as private roads. The reason why they were able to take these four roads over the one block of land was because the Government gave them the power to do so; if the Government had not agreed to it it could not have been done ; therefore he asks the Government to consider this case and find a road out for the Natives. This Mr. Spencer, who will not grant these people a road, has been a member of the Council, and he has solicited the Maoris to give up portions of their lands for roads. Mr. Spencer was one who was most strenuous in getting the main county road put through over Maori land. When Mr. Bryce had a meeting, a Native stood up and said that Spencer had offered him a buggy to allow the road to go through his land. Now, according to this, Mr. Spencer really owes the Natives a buggy, and he ought to make up for this by giving the Natives a road. Another matter is, that when the Native Volunteers were, disbanded they returned the rifles, except two, which were missing, but were paid for; the missing rifles have since turned up, and the Natives ask to be allowed to keep them. They also ask that one of the targets that was given by Sir Donald McLean may be given to them, and also a small supply of ammunition to practice with. There is a block of land called Kahakaharoa. Before the land went through the Court it was occupied by some Europeans, but he (Nahe) heard that the Government leased it to the Europeans. These Europeans have a number of cattle running upon it, and they have cut down the timber. He thought that the rents which have been paid on that block, or which have accumulated, is a largo amount. After the land went through the Court Nahe's people were found to be the owners of it. The European who was living on it was named J. Lewin. The Native owners of the land wish that they should receive what has come out of it in the way of payments for the timber, or rent. With reference to the Court to be held at the Thames, Nahe said it was proposed that this Court should only be for land about which there is no dispute. Pepene said he had three things to remark about : the first one is in connection with Te Aroha.* They sent in applications concerning that during the past year. The reply was, that a Court should be granted for it, but afterwards Mr. Gill stopped it. What they wish is, that this land should be brought before the Court, and then it would come out in Court whether the Government has obtained that portion of the land. Mr. Gill said that the Ngaiterangi people sold this land to the Government. They replied, " You and the Ngaiterangi come into Court and prove that." Mr. Gill said, "No ; Ido not agree to have it before the Court." If this matter is brought into the Court it will be settled at once, and if they lose they will drop it. If this is not done they will continually press for a Court. They object to the hearing being stopped by Mr. Gill. What they want is that the Government should not interfere to stop the hearing. The second word is regarding Tiepa, a piece of land within the Te Aroha Block. There has been a great deal of disputing about this land. Ho thinks this should be allowed to go into the Court also. The remarks made about Te Aroha apply also to this piece. The third matter is regarding the hot springs at Te Aroha. He complains that they are charged when they go to bathe there. If this regulation is allowed to exist it is really overriding the original agreement that they had with the Government. This statement about admitting them free was only a verbal one. Messrs. Wilkinson and Mackay conducted the arrangement. Tamati Paetai said that he was one who threw open his land for the county road. The reason was that a law was made then that the Maoris should not be charged rates. That arrangement extended wherever the road went, up to the end of the Hauraki boundary. They want to have a distinct assurance that they will not be charged rates. The road has been laid off to go over their lands. They want the agreement by which they were not to be charged rates to be enforced in the future. Another subject is in reference to the Wharekawa No. 1 Block on the East Coast. It was originally leased by Hohepa Paraone and Miriama Konehu to Mr. O'Keefe. At that time it had neither been surveyed nor passed through the Court; subsequently it was passed through the Court and given in favour of two grantees. The grantees were Hohepa Paraone and Miriama Konehu. The lease of O'Keefe lapsed, and the land was then purchased by the Government—that is, Hohepa Paraone's share. They have searched in the bill of the sale but find that Miriama Konehu's name is not there. The reason he mentions it is that Miriama Konehu is dead and he (Tamati Paetai) has been appointed by the Court as trustee for the younger child. Kapihana te Tuhi spoke about the land at Te Puriri. This land was purchased by the Commissioner with pipes and Bibles, and other trivial articles, and they now want to know how they can get the land back again. He also objected to the dog-tax being collected from him. There is another matter in connection with the block called Taparahi Nos. I and 2. The Tairua Company surveyed their land and it was put through the Court. He mentioned this in order that the Court might not give judgment against him. The company have done this because they wanted to include a lot of kauri timber in their block. The company has purchased the No. 1 Block, but No. 2is still in the hands of the Maoris, but the company have taken in a portion of it. Another matter is concerning a block of land at Oroua. The old survey has been ignored altogether, and the new line has been put in another place. Tamati Waka spoke about Wairua te Eangiatapu, over which a road has been run by the Council. He thinks the road through the Totara should be sufficient, and that the other should not be gone on with. Another matter is in connection with the final payment on the Moehau gold field block. The Government has some money that he ought to have. Wiremu Turipona said he wanted to speak about the lighthouse at Pokohinu, to which he has a claim. It is for the Government to prove that he has no ownership.

* Land between the eastern boundary of Te Aroha Block and the western boundary of the Katikati and Te Puni purchase.—G.T.W.

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Te Meremana complained that the Government had paid everybody except him for taking a water-race over the hills. Hakipene Hum spoke about Hikutaia No. 1, that was sold by two Natives, and a number of owners did not agree to the sale. That European, to whom it was sold by the two, took possession as a gum merchant. The land was not leased, and when that European failed the creditors seized the place he was living on as an asset in his estate. He (Hakipene) wants it returned to the Native owners. That piece of land is within the boundaries of the block owned by the Natives. [Hikutaia No. 1 Block.] Another matter is about the land taken for the railway. Ohoupo Nos. 1 and 2 are the pieces in dispute. He has applied to the person in charge of the railway line to pay him for that piece, but has not got the money. Another subject he has to speak about is the kauri timber on Hikutaia No. 2 and Whangamata No. 3 Blocks. These lands were put through the Court at Shortland, and the Government then purchased them. Fourteen owner's received payment, and four were allowed to receive a separate payment on account of the kauri timber. There were two purchases, one for the timber and one for the land; fourteen were paid for the land and four for the timber. The twenty-seven people did not get any payment for the kauri timber. These twenty-four were the owners of Hikutaia No. 2, and thirty were in the Whangamata No. 3 Block. Thirty owners obtained payment for the land, and four only obtained payment for the timber, and these four who got money for the timber were part of the thirty who got payment for the land. He thinks the Government ought to consider this matter, and pay the others who did not get so much as the four. Matiu Pono said he would refer to the matter spoken of by Meremana—namely, the water-race. Some landowners, over whose land the race runs, have been paid, some have not. His (Matiu's) portion was not paid. For about a mile it runs over land owned by himself and his hapu, which has not been paid for, extending up to the reservoir within the gold fields. There is a piece at the reservoir owned by his and another hapu. The reservoir is owned by them. They have never been paid for the water going over their land, and their land has suffered by caving-in and other matters through the water-race being opened over it. Sir Donald McLean promised that the matter should be settled some other time. Matiu Pono went on to say that he was ready to give up land for roads without asking for payment. He has received a notification from the Thames Borough Council to pay for some land at Tararu. There are a number of them who have claims to land over which the road goes at Coromandel, and they have been asked to pay rates. They have given up the land for nothing for the roads, and do not think that they should be charged for rates, and ask that the rates should not be enforced. He (Pono) would not agree yet that the land over which the railway goes should be surveyed. With reference to the land that has been surveyed in the past, the surveyors have asked the Maoris to write to the Government requesting them to pay the surveyors for their labour, that the Government should settle with them. He would agree to this if the Government would lay no claim to the land, having paid for the surveys. If the Government do not put the payment they make to the surveyors as a lien upon the land he is willing that they should pay them. Another matter is about the Europeans who go out and catch flat fish on the mud flats. All those mud flats are owned by the Hauraki people. He wishes the Minister to stand up for them in this matter. Epeniha said he would speak about the reward that has been published for the finding of gold in the Thames District. Asks that money should be paid to no other people than those of Hauraki. Mango said that he gave up his land for the gold to be worked, and considered that he should have been paid money when the gold was got. Mr. Puckey was appointed to pay the miners' rights fees to them; but, after he left, the payments on the three blocks—Kauaeranga No. 13, Pouhau, and Tutukaka—dwindled down to almost nothing. When Mr. Wilkinson was appointed, he claimed from him payment on account of Kauaeranga No. 13, but never got it. After Mr. Wilkinson went away he demanded it from Mr. Kenrick. Mr. Kenrick told him that there was no revenue from there. The money he gets from Tutukaka is very small; it is only for residence sites ; but he considers that it is not right that he should be put off with only the fees for residence sites. Some of the lands that they gave for gold mining are now lying idle, and they want the Government to remove the Goldfields Regulations from those lands where there is no mining. Ngapari said there had been a road taken through a tapu, to which he objected. The Europeans climb up and go over it, and when the fence is broken by Europeans climbing over the cattle get in. He wishes the Minister to give effect to the tapu, to keep people from going on it. When Mr. Sheehan was Native Minister he spoke to him about land called Te Manuka : he did not receive the payment for it. During Mr. Bryce's time he applied for a payment of Native revenue from Grahainstown. A Native (whose name could not be ascertained) said that he applied, in 1874, for dead people's shares in some land. The people who made the order said that they had leased. The name of the block is Tapapa No. 1, at Te Puriri. He put the land through the Court. Has never been able to do anything in the absence of the map. Another matter is in connection with a block called Arikirau No. 3 ; he applied for the shares of some dead people, but never got a hearing. Hohcpo Mataitaua asked for a Government medical officer at Coromandel, and asked that the appointment should be restored to Dr. Hovell. Another matter is with regard to people getting oysters on the beach frontages of their lands; think that these people should pay a license-fee to the Natives. Te Baika said he had been appointed a trustee for eight children of a man named Utuku ; the name of the block in which he was interested is Pukewhau. When their father died and they were left orphans they had no house to live in, and asked that he (Raika) should dispose of their parents' interest in the land and build them a house, to which he agreed. When he signed the deed the house had been commenced. When he signed he asked for payment of the moneys in the

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bank. He (Baika) referred the matter to the Chief Judge, who requested him to send a copy of the deposit-receipt of the bank, which he will have received by this time. He (Eaika) thinks it would be well if the money were forthcoming, in order that he can pay for this house for the children. The house is finished, and the carpenter has been good enough not to press him very much for money. He has applied to the carpenter for the bill, but has not been able to pay it. Himipuru said he wished to speak about the money that he should get out of Te Aroha Block. Previous to the investigation of this block by the Court it was arranged that he was to have this money, but before he got paid the money the land passed the Court, and he was absent, having received no notice that the land was to be put through the Court. When the land went through the Court, all his claims on it went with the land, extending up to a portion of the block called Manawam, which was given by the Government to some other Natives than the owner. The way that land was put through the Court had the appearance of robbing the Natives. He would like to know whether his name was to the original deed of cession of the Aroha Block; he is waiting to know if he is to go to get the money; he wishes that the Government should pay him now in satisfaction of his claims that were lost to him by that investigation, of which he did not receive any notice. Parata te Mohu spoke in connection with the gold field at Manaia, which is owned by them: it is land that has not yet been passed through the Court or surveyed. When the Hauraki gold field was put through the Court there were no surveys then, and the money was paid to Taipari and some others. He does not want to have that block surveyed ; and if there is any money to be paid on account of that gold field he wishes it to be paid to himself for the people. The only surveys on it are the surveys of men for their claims. He has no money to pay for the surveys. W. H. Taipari complained that they were to be rated on account of the road for a distance of forty or fifty miles from Tararu right to Te Aroha. He referred to the county road. These are people of whom it was said they were not to be charged any rates. What Matiu said with regard to the matter is right, and also his statement about the fish. He (Taipari) has seen his lawyers about it, and asked them to summons the men who get the fish; the lawyer said that the best way would be to send a petition to Parliament about it. Mr. Ballance : Taipari has made a very good proposal —that the grievances which have not now been dealt with should be held over till I return again. I think, however, that you have brought forward a pretty good list of grievances, and if you get them answered you ought to be pretty well satisfied. I can conceive no grievance which you have not introduced to-day. You have referred to so many that you have introduced the same thing over and over again. I will begin by referring to the grievances brought forward by Hoani Nahe. I can hardly call them grievances, because they are reasonable requests. lam sorry that the Volunteer corps has not been maintained in this district; but lam glad to hear that, although you are not still enrolled, you are acting the part of Volunteers. I would like to say more upon this question of volunteering, but I have not time. Hoani has asked that two guns, which were paid for, should be allowed to be retained by the Volunteers of Hauraki. I think that is a very proper request. lam quite willing they should retain them; in 'fact, since they have paid for them, they may be considered their own. As to the request for a target, that also I shall grant. Hoani has referred to the land leased by the Europeans; that matter I shall look into. He wishes to have the Native Land Court as quickly as possible, but thinks that no land should be brought before it which is in dispute. Ido not know what he alludes to; because after all most land that is brought before the Native Land Court is in dispute. I have said that the Native Committee may materially assist in settling these disputes, so that, when the land does come before the Court, there will be little difficulty. Pepene has referred to some land at Te Aroha, and he thinks that the Government should not stop the hearing; he shows great confidence in the Land Court, and is willing that the Land Court should settle the dispute between himself and the Government. He also refers to another block of land called Tiepa, and is willing that the Land Court should also there decide. It is a very fair challenge on his part, and I accept the challenge : the matter will not bo stopped, but will be allowed to be settled by the Land Court. If the Land Court awards the land to the Natives, well and good. Then, he referred to the hot springs at Te Aroha, and thinks that the agreement has been broken, on the ground that a small charge is made to the Natives for admission to the springs, but the charge only applies to some of the springs; the others are free to all. Then, in the case where the charge is made, no distinction is made between the Europeans and the Natives. The charge is a very trifling one, and has been put on simply to pay the cost of the improvements which have been made. The springs have been enclosed and made private for those who use and enjoy them. Why should the Natives therefore refuse to pay a small sum when the Europeans.are willing? I hope they will look at this matter in a reasonable light, and see that what has been done is a very reasonable and fair thing. Ido not agree with him that the agreement has been broken. They are open for everybody. The charge that has been made is only to recoup the cost which has been incurred in improving the springs which attract people to the district, and really enhance the value of the land which belongs to the Natives. Now, Tamati has alluded to the county road, and thinks there should be no rates upon the land. lam aware that there are no rates now imposed on it, but the law requires that, when the titles of Natives are individualized, then rates may be charged, and the reason is this : that the road improves the value of the land, whether it belong to Europeans or to Natives. If the Native lands derive benefit from the roads, why should they not contribute to maintain them ? But it was said that an agreement was made that no rates should be charged when the land was first handed over. I cannot understand that such an agreement should have been made, because no private person has a right to say that the law shall not be enforced. I think, therefore, it is only reasonable that, when the Native obtains his title to the land, he should stand in exactly the same position as the European. Wherever I have gone the Natives have made that one request invariably—that there should be no distinction made between them and the Europeans. With regard to the land that has not been passed through the Court, or which is held by a great number of people and cannot be used, that is a different

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matter; and I think we should be very cautious before we ask the Natives to pay rates where they cannot use the land. So far I agree with them. Tamati has also said that one reason why the Natives should not pay rates is because they have no wealth, but the Natives are really more wealthy than the Europeans. They may not have more money to spend, but they have more land, and land is the great source of wealth in every country in the world. I hope you will turn your land to such account that you may reckon yourselves to be the wealthiest people in the colony. If you squander your land, you will soon be poor : if you use it properly you will have plenty of money, and he able to become wealthy. Eeference has been made to certain blocks of land: I have no particulars or facts regarding this land that you have referred to to-day, but in all those cases I shall refer the matter to Mr. Wilkinson, and ask him to make an inquiry into the facts ; and then, if there are any real grievances, I will see that they are redressed. I have placed on record all that you have said with regard to those blocks of land, to which you have referred. None of your speeches shall be lost sight of; all that you have said will be carefully inquired into, and you will hear further with reference to them. The Eev. William Turipona has referred to a lighthouse on land which he claims as his own. I would like to say, with regard to that, that the fact that a lighthouse is erected upon land does not mean that the land has been taken from the Native owners, and therefore, when he saw the lighthouse, it was no evidence that the land had passed from him, if it at the time really belonged to him; but I am informed that the land does not belong to him, but really belongs to the Crown ; and if the land does belong to him, it is for him to prove it. I am only giving him the statement which I have received; and, if the land does really belong to him, I have no doubt he will be able to make good his title. The matter of compensation for land taken for the railway has been referred to by Hakipene, and a Government officer told him that he was not prepared to pay the money, if I understood him. I will inquire into this subject, and see that the money, if it is due, is paid over. The Government compensates the Natives for land taken for railways, and, if the land was taken from any Native, the money will be paid to him which has been awarded as compensation. The same remarks will apply to -the water-races which have been referred to; I will inquire into that subject, and see that any money which is due is paid over. Matiu Pono and Taipari have referred to flat fish, and another Native has referred to oysters. This is a matter of law, whether Europeans have a right to fish on the foreshore. They may have a right, for they have a right to fish in the ocean. I will make inquiry, and find out whether really they have any rights or not. lam inclined to think they have rights—that you cannot prevent them by law from catching either fish or oysters. Then, again, reference has been made to roads over the tapu country. I referred to that before, and told you that the surveyors had received instructions to be very cautious where they took roads. In all these matters, if you bring your complaints before the Government Agent, they will bo carefully inquired into. Hohepa has applied for a Government medical officer at Coromandel. At one time a small sum was paid to the medical officer there for attending the Natives, but I am told that the climate was so good, or the Natives so very strong, that the services of a medical man were not really required, and the doctor had so little to do that the Government thought it was not worth while to pay him £25 a year for doing next to nothing, I congratulate the Natives of Coromandel on their satisfactory condition, and I hope that they are not now in a worse state than when the services of the doctor were not required. I may say generally, with regard to the services of medical men, that where the Government find the Natives require the services of a medical man, they are willing to pay for them, and when representations have been made to us that there has been sickness amongst the Natives, the services of a medical man has always been called in. If we should find, therefore, at any future time that the Natives of Coromandel require the services of a doctor, we shall see that they are placed at their disposal. Te Eaika has referred to the fact that he is trustee for eight children, and asks that the Government shall see about money that is coming to them. I shall make immediate inquiry into that matter, and hasten the payment of the money, so that the house which has been built for them shall be paid for. With regard to the Manaia gold field, lam told that the money cannot be paid until the owners of the land are ascertained. The money is now in the hands of the Warden awaiting the information which will enable him to pay the money to the rightful owners. I shall, therefore, ask Parata to assist in pushing on the survey. He says he has no money for the survey, and that is the reason why it does not go on ; but I think there should be no difficulty in getting the money advanced, or inducing some private surveyor to undertake it, if they know that the money is in the hands of the Warden, and will be paid over to them when the survey is made. They have only to arrange that the money shall be deducted for the cost of the survey out of the first moneys coming to them. I have now gone over most of the questions which have been referred to. I have told you that, in reference to those matters that concern the titles of land, they shall be inquired into. I have not now the information at my disposal which would enable me to give you final answers, but none of those subjects shall be neglected. As I have said, I hope to have the pleasure of seeing you at no distant period; it may be before the next session of Parliament in June, but I am not certain ; it may be deferred until after the session, but I shall be happy to receive from you at all times any letters asking for information or the redress of grievances. I again recommend you to use your Committee for the purpose of assisting you in inquiring into these matters. It is the desire of the Government to encourage and to strengthen these Native Committees, so that they may assist the Government in the work of administration, and be of use to the Native people. I explained to the Committee this morning the larger powers we propose to confer upon them, and they will explain that to you. I hope we shall get on well in future, and that permanent peace and friendly feeling shall be established between the two races. I can assure you that it is the strong desire of the Parliament to. make laws which will be of equal benefit to the two races; and when any of you feel that you have suffered an injury, your best recourse is to the law. The Government is strong to assist the weak; and it is my earnest desire to so administer the Native Department that no one shall be able to say we have acted partially or with favour, but that all shall be treated with equal justice. Mrs. Bipeka Turepona said that she had put in some claims to the Government for some land

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that she and her hapu had at Tauranga. She was never in rebellion. Another question is about the lands that Moananui sold to the Government, A member of her hapu never received any payment for this land. She had commenced to send in applications in 1878 that the Government should give them some proportion of the land that was confiscated, and also something out of the land that was sold by Te Moananui. The replies were that she had no claim to the lands. She has sent in applications from 1878 to 1884, and has not been lazy in the matter. [Mrs. Turipona here read one of the letters that she got in reply.] She has three claims—one through the confiscation, one by the sale by Te Moananui, and one regarding the external boundary of the Tauranga lands.

Hoani Nairn said he would forego what he had to say about his own matters, and would refer to what had been said by Eipeka. During the time he was a member of the House he received several letters from her, and made inquiries of Mr. Clarke and some others regarding them, and discovered that in this district and in the Taranaki District there were a certain number of Natives who took part in the rebellion and there was a certain number who did not. After the fighting was over a Court was established to inquire into the claims of the different people; and the people who attended these Compensation Courts were appointed to look after the land given to themselves and others of their own tribe who were not attending the Court. These people who were appointed sold the land without the consent of the others. After these inquiries he was able to reply to the letters that Mrs. Turepona sent him. Hoani Nahe went on to say that he was not quite clear about the Minister's reply about the right of road across Spencer's land. He wants the Minister to write him an authority to the person in charge of the Government stores to enable him to remove one of the targets. Mr. Ballance: I am told that the claims which have been advanced by Eipeka have been heard and inquired into repeatedly, and the answer that has been always made is this: that she has no claim against the Government, but only against her own people; that, if wrong has been done, it has been done by the hapu to which she belongs in abusing the trust reposed in them; and the speech of Hoani Nahe seems to confirm that. However, it is still open to her to press her claims. She can petition the House, and a further inquiry will be made : that is her right; and the Government is strong, as I have said, to protect the weak when the weak are right. I overlooked the point referred to by Hoani Nahe about the road through private land. lam under the impression that it is the County Council that has the right to take roads through private lands. I think that., after the liberal way in which the Natives behaved in giving land for the county road, private individuals in the County Council should give a road for the Maoris; and I shall look into this matter and have representations made to the County Council. PereM said he was in trouble about a piece of land called Pikewahine, which was surveyed by Mr. Rowe. He made three applications to the Chief Surveyor to ratify that survey, but he would not do it. The Chief Surveyor said he would find the surveyor to do the work. He thinks perhaps from that that Mr. Eowe has not got a surveyor's license. He paid Mr. Eowe a part of the money •for the survey of the land. Mr. Ballance said that he would represent to the Chief Surveyor the position in which Pereki was. Arani Watene referred to the timber on the block of land at Tararu which was cut without authority. The rule that the Government have laid down is that the land should be first passed through the Court; but the timber on this land was sold a long time ago, and the Government paid the money over to the Natives. When the land was passed through the Court, it; was found that Arani Watene and her people were the owners of it, and not the people who received the money for the timber. Since the land has been adjudicated in their favour she finds the timber has been all cut down. Considers that the Government is responsible, and that they should pay her something because the Government paid these moneys away. Mr. Ballance said that if Arani Watene would send him a letter he would consider the matter.

Notes of a Meeting between the Hon. Mr. Ballance and the Botobua Natives, on the 16th February, 1885. Wliititera te Waiatua, who was the first speaker, presented an address (attached), which was a welcome from the chiefs and the people of Ngatiwhakaue. [Translation.] This is a welcome to the Native Minister from the Ngatiwhakaue Tribe. Friend, Mr. Ballance, salutations. Welcome to Eotorua; welcome to the land which has been left to us by our ancestors. Our joy is very great at your coming here to see us, so that you may bo able to listen to our grievances and troubles, and to afford us relief. Although you have been absent in body, we have heard of the good measures that you brought before Parliament. It is on this account that our joy is very great, for we have heard of the policy expressed by your Government at meetings at Waikato and Wanganui. We believe and hope that we shall now obtain prosperity in consequence of the policy of your Government. In past times many troubles have rested upon us. Welcome to Eotorua. Come and remove the grievances which are resting on us. Welcome to the Arawa Tribe, who have always been loyal and upheld the Queen's laws from the time of fighting down to the present. We hope that Providence will watch over you and enable you to carry out your good work affecting the Native people. Long live the Queen ! Now, as you have come to see us we will therefore tell you the subjects which we wish to bring before you. The bulk of the subjects we wish to discuss we will postpone for another occasion. These are the subjects we will now mention : (1.) For many years past the Government have been devising laws affecting the Native lands ; but those laws still press heavily upon the Natives : therefore it is our desire that some new policy should bo enunciated with regard to these matters, therefore we propose that a law should be made jointly affecting the Native lands. (2.) Lot the Native Committee of Eotorua have the direction of the 6—G. 1.

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surveys. (3.) We ask that the survey charges should be lessened, and the Government should pay for our surveys. The Government should pay for the surveys in the first place, and when the lands are put to use and we derive a revenue from them, then we will repay the Government the cost of the surveys. (4.) The train from Waikato to Eotorua: let that be made speedily. (5.) " The Thermal Springs Act, 1881:" let that be firmly upheld by your Government. Mr. Ballance, in reply, said: My friends, the Native people of the great Arawa Tribe, I thank you very cordially for the very kind welcome which you have given me. I have not, in my travels through the North Island up to the present time, met with any welcome more cordial, and I feel assured that it fully represents the opinions of the Native people of this part of the country. That welcome is a guarantee that our relations will be in the future as they have been in the past, friendly. There was no occasion to assure me of the loyalty of the Arawa Tribe. The loyalty of the people has long been known to the Government of the colony. In times of difficulty and danger the Arawa Tribe, when called upon by the Government, have always rallied to the call. On one occasion I had the pleasure of seeing what the Arawas were ready to do at the bidding of the Government. It was in 1868, when I met the Native contingent of the Arawa Tribe on the West Coast, when the war was going on there, and I saw some of their services. I was then a fellowsoldier with the Arawas, fighting in support of the laws of the colony. You have referred in the address which you have presented to-day to the land which has been handed down to you by your ancestors. That is a sentiment which I gladly reciprocate. I believe it is one of the dearest to the Maori race that, at any rate, a large portion of the estate handed down to them by their ancestors shall be kept for their descendants. I say it deliberately—and I say it in the presence of the fact that I am criticised severely in some parts of the colony for expressing this sentiment—that it is not the desire of the Government to strip the Natives of their lands. On the other hand it is the desire of the Government to assist the Natives in preserving a large portion of their territory, in order that their prosperity, and their existence, and their happiness may be maintained in the future. A landless people is a discontented people, because they are likely to become paupers, and they are likely to become a burden on the Government. You will have seen yourselves that the Government, in trying to assist you in realizing rents from the property around Ohinenrutu, are most anxious to preserve to the people a large portion of their heritage. Ido not refer only to one Government, but to several Governments. I will have something to say to you, perhaps to-day or perhaps to-morrow, with regard to the railway which is now being constructed, and I shall ask you to sell to the Government or to the company, for the purpose of constructing that railway, a portion of the land through which it passes : but I shall ask the people to preserve to themselves —that is to say, every hapu to preserve to itself —sufficient land ; and I shall be able to show you that the land which will be kept will be more valuable than the whole of the land is at the present time, in consequence of the railway. The reason that I make that proposal is that I fear the railway will not be constructed unless the Natives are prepared to sell a portion of the land through which the railway passes. That railway has not been undertaken by the Government, but by a company. Therefore, if you are anxious to get the railway completed, we shall have to discuss terms with regard to the land, which will be advantageous both to the colony and to the Native people. You have referred to the policy affecting Native lands as a whole, and I will explain to you briefly what that policy is. In fact, you have struck the key-note yourselves when you said that the management of the land should be joint— that is, that there should be joint management by the two races. I thoroughly agree with that proposal; and a measure will be submitted to Parliament next session to enable the Government to manage the Native lands—that is to say, that the Government should sell or lease land belonging to the Natives for their benefit and in accordance with their wishes; and it will be done in this way : When a block of land has been declared by the Court vested in a certain hapu, the hapu will be called upon to elect a Committee. We will suppose that the number of people in whom the land is vested is one hundred ; they will meet together and elect a Committee of seven persons, who shall hold office for two years. There shall be a Board appointed also for certain districts. The Board shall consist of a person appointed by the Government, who shall be a Commissioner, the Chairman of the District Native Committee, and some other Native to be appointed by the Government. When the Committee wish to sell or lease their land they will apply to the Board. The Board will have power to advance the cost of the survey, and to arrange with the Committee for the construction of roads. Each district will probably be made coterminous with the district of the large Committee. It may, however, sometimes happen that the Committee do not fairly represent the opinion of the people. lam now referring to the local Committee appointed for the land. In that case power will be given to the people —that is, to the owners of the block—to meet and to veto the action of the Committee by a majority. Now, the Government will place one limitation —a very important limitation —to the disposal of the land, and the limitation is this : In order that the land shall carry the largest available population the Government will see by regulations or by Act that the land shall not be disposed of in blocks above a certain area. That is the limitation that the Government will place to the power of the Committee and of the Board ; for the policy of the Government is this : not to allow the land to be held by a few persons. They believe that a large European population settled upon and cultivating the land will be best for the interests of both people, larger rents to the owners of the land, and greater prosperity to the colony generally. Reference has been made to the cost of the surveys, and upon this I will say a word or two. The Government do not propose to, and will not, charge for surveys more than the surveys cost themselves—that is to say, the Government will make no profit off the surveys. It is proposed to advance the money for the surveys by the Government, and to deduct the amount from the rents, or the purchase-money of the land if sold ; but the owners of the land, of course, will have a voice in this matter themselves. Now, with regard to the Native Committee. It is proposed to give the Committee (I refer to the large Committee, the District Committee) larger powers. Wherever I have gone I have been highly pleased at the way the Committees in the various districts have discharged the duties which has been conferred upon them by Parliament. I have found great intelligence and great zeal

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in the discharge of their duties, and an honest desire to benefit their race. Now, in the case of civil debts, the Committee can only adjudicate where the two parties agree. I propose to give them the power to adjudicate on cases when one party summons another for debt, and somewhat to increase the jurisdiction—that is to say, the amount which can be sued for. Then, again, I have given instructions that, when an application is made to the Native Land Court for a survey of land, a copy of the application shall bo sent to the Committee, in order that the Committee may know what is going on with respect to the lands of the people. Then, at the present time, when a member of a Committee falls out, either through death or through resignation, you have no power of filling up his place until the number falls below six, when the Committee lapses, and then you may elect another. But I propose to give you the power possessed by County Councils and by municipal Councils, to fill up vacancies whenever they occur. And now I shall refer to the Thermal Districts Act, to which you have called my attention. You ask that it may be permanently established by the Government. I take it, therefore, that the wish of the Native people—at any rate, of large section of them—is, that the Proclamation bringing the Act into force shall not be restricted or removed. I take it from your address —I suppose I have placed the correct interpretation upon it—that your desire is that the whole of the land proclaimed under the Thermal Districts Act shall remain under'the Proclamation. I will tell you what took place respecting this matter during the session: I had the pleasure of several conversations on this point with Mr. Tapsell; in fact, he brought down a private Bill to enable the Proclamation to be permanently retained over the lands. I told him that the Government were not in favour of private-Bill legislation —that is, affecting Native lands—and I gave him an assurance, with which he was satisfied, that, if it were the wish of the Native people, the Proclamation should be retained over their lands. I have not departed from that promise, but am prepared here, in the presence of the people, to ratify it in the same terms in which it was first made. I, in fact, am now convinced, from the address which you have presented to-day, that it is not your wish that these lands should pass from under the Proclamation ; and I think that the wish of the Native people in this respect should govern the action of the Government. I have now gone over the various subjects which you have raised in your address to-day; and, while again thanking you, I would suggest that we might perhaps adjourn for an hour and return again, when we can go into matters of detail and general business. I would just like to make one request, and it is this : the pressure of public business, and the fact that I have appointed several other meetings with the Natives in various other parts of the colony has made my time exceedingly limited here, and—consistently, of course, with the proper discharge of business—l trust that our speeches will be made as brief as possible. Again I thank you for your very kind welcome. Whititera te Waiatua: The Chairman of the Committee of Eotorua is absent. I would now like to read an address from the Committee of Eotorua: — " This is a welcome from the Native Committee of Eotorua to you, the Native Minister. Friend, salutations to you. This is a welcome from the Chairman and from us, the members of the Native Committee of Eotorua, to you. "We are extremely glad that you have come here to see us, so that you can listen to the speeches which we have to make, and the subjects we have to bring before you. Although you have not come to see us before, your good fame has reached us; and we are much gratified with the policy of your Government. We have heard that the policy of your Government has been indorsed and approved by a great many of the Native people of this Island; particularly with regard to the giving an opportunity of self-government to the Natives. Although only a small amount of self-government has been given to vs —to the Natives—we were very glad to get it. No doubt the Government are right in thinking that a child should walk before it starts to run ; but in our opinion we are capable of conducting matters of great importance connected with the tribes—that is, with regard to the administration of the land, and various matters connected with the tribes. Now, as you have come to see us we will take the opportunity of coming to you and presenting certain subjects for your consideration. May God guard you !" Mr. Ballance : I have now to thank the Native Committee for the address which has just been presented. The opinions expressed in that address are very gratifying. I quite concur in the opinion that the Native people are quite capable of conducting their own affairs under the laws of the colony. We are extending gradually to the Native people the powers which have long been given to Europeans. Municipal or local government has been for ages one of the great glories of Great Britain; and it is believed by all authorities that those institutions have conferred more peace and more happiness upon the people of Great Britain than all other causes combined. Causes which have produced such beneficial effects amongst Europeans are, I believe, calculated to produce the same effects amongst the Maoris. These opinions of mine are not the growth of to-day or yesterday : I have thought and meditated over them for more than twenty years, and I am convinced of their salutary effect. Whititera te Waiatua : As you have proposed that there should be an adjournment, I have to explain that when the meeting resumes it will not be a meeting of the whole tribe. You have probably received a document suggesting that the various sub-tribes should come before you separately to bring their matters under your consideration. Mr. Ballance said that that arrangement would do very well. Betireti Ta/pihana : We wish to reply to what you said to-day. We will withhold some of our replies to a portion of your statements for another occasion. I will only speak with regard to the subjects mentioned in the address presented to yoii to-day. The first is to give the Maoris extended powers for governing themselves. You, in speaking on this subject, referred more particularly to the District Native Committees and to the Committees for managing blocks of land. The members of the District Committee have been elected according to law by the people, and their powers are what you have stated to-day; but they are quite aware that they have not sufficiently large powers to deal with all the subjects they wish. With regard to your statement that the owners of land would be authorized to elect Committees to administer the different blocks of

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land. That although the Committees may be appointed or elected to deal with the various blocks, still they will not be in a position to deal with Native matters generally. At the time when troubles first commenced—that is to say, when the fighting commenced on this Island— former Governments gave large powers to the chiefs, and they' were able to carry out the government of the country satisfactorily. The late Sir Donald McLean and the various Civil Commissioners were the friends who worked with those Native chiefs. The arbitration about land disputes, and about boundaries, and about quarrels, were settled satisfactorily. Subsequent Governments took back the authority from those people, and retained it in the hands of the Europeans. Trouble then commenced, which has gone on increasing up to the time of Mr. Bryce's Government. It is the wish of the owners that the land should be made a source of profit. As they have not power to administer it, nothing can be done with it for their benefit; and if the Government will give extended self-government to the Natives, I think that great good will result to the Natives, to the Europeans, and to the colony generally. That is all I have to say with regard to that subject. We ask that the Government will assist us to call a great meeting of all the chiefs, that they should assemble here and discuss various matters which will then be referred to the Government. We believe, if the Minister could meet the Native chiefs face to face and discuss various matters, that great benefits would result. The drawback at present is the jealousy existing between ourselves—the want of unanimity. I will refer to another subject—that is, the railway. This railway was a subject of discussion between the company and Ngatiwhakaue. The company asked Ngatiwhakaue to give up fifty thousand acres as an endowment for the railway :if they did that, then the company would make the railway, and the Maoris would have shares in the railway of the company, and various other proposals were made. When the Government heard of this proposal the Ministers were very angry indeed about it; and the Native Committee upheld the Ministers in their opposition to this proposal, because they considered that the direction of the land has been given over to the Ministers. The Native Committee then said, "Yes; your objection to this plan is a just one. You take the railway under your own management, and make it." The Government replied, "That is good; we will accept that proposal;" but the Ministers said, "You must give up sufficient land for the railway—that is, for the track of the railway—and sufficient land to make the railway-stations. ' We agreed to that unanimously. We also asked that there should be no delay; and the Ministers replied, " Yes, the railway shall be made speedily." Before a year had elapsed the same Ministers returned and told us that the township was not a Government township at all, that the benefits of that township would be received by the Maoris only, and they said, " You must give us land for the railway." We agreed to that proposal, and said, "How much land do you require?" The Government land-purchase officers said, "Let Ngatiwhakaue give twenty thousand acres." Ngatiwhakaue were rather staggered by this request, because they considered that they have only a small quantity of land, and that twenty thousand acres is out of proportion; they could not afford to part with that amount. But the old people and chiefs of the tribe were strenuous in saying that the land should be given. The young people of the tribe said, "Well, we will give ten thousand acres and sell ten thousand acres, because the ultimate benefit of railways being made goes to the colony." The result was that twenty thousand acres were set apart—handed over to the Government. Now, with regard to your request to-day that the Arawas should give more land for the railway, are you making that demand to Ngatiwhakaue or the Arawas ? We wish to be clear upon that point. When the twenty thousand acres was handed over by Ngatiwhakaue they said, " Let the railway be made quickly;" and the reply was, "Yes, it will be made soon." Are you now asking them (Ngatiwhakaue) to give-more land ? Do you wish to take the whole of the balance which remains to them ? Or are you making this request to other people than the Ngatiwhakaue ? Ngatiwhakaue, including women and children, amount to six hundred Natives, and we have only thirty thousand acres of land left, and we cannot afford to part with any of that. Now, with regard to the surveys—with regard to our request that the Government in the first place should pay for the surveys, and whenever the land became a source of revenue, then we should return the Government money out of the first proceeds. We ask that the direction of the surveys should be given into the hands of the District Committees. We make that request on account of the troubles that are caused by surveys. If the direction of the surveys is left in the hands of the Native Committee everything will be clear, there wall be no quarrelling, and it will not then be in the power of any one individual to go and carry on a survey and make trouble. Another cause of trouble is about the money for the surveys. However, I will not speak at great length about the troubles that arise out of surveying the land, because they are matters that are well known to the Government. I will now speak with regard to the Thermal Springs Act. In our address to you wo asked that the Thermal Springs Act shall remain in force. The reason we make this request is that yours is a new Government. In asking the Government to retain that law in force, we wish that the terms of the Act shall be carried out with regard to the disposal of the land. If the land is to be sold or leased it must be done by public auction. This matter rests entirely with the Government, it lies in their hands; so that all the troubles which now rest on the laud, and all the troubles affecting this district, rest entirely with the Government. Any troubles that have arisen in the past, or that may arise in the future, rest with the Government; but when the Government give the land back absolutely to us to deal with, then we will know that the responsibility rests on ourselves alone. There will be further discussion about this subject afterwards. It would not be right to talk about it now, because there arc many people here who are not interested, and who should not be present. With regard to your expression that the time at your disposal is very short, it is the wish of this people that every man, great or small, may have an opportunity of expressing his views to you, because it is many years since the Arawa Tribe have had an opportunity of laying their matters before a Minister. They did not like to do so to Mr. Bryce when he was Native Minister. There were a number of people present at the meeting this morning. They were representatives from different tribes, living' at different places, who wore sent here to bring their matters before you. Ngatiwhakaue live at two large centres, at Ohine-

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mutu and Maketu ; but at each place there are separate matters for discussion. That is all I have to say. WMtitera te Waiatua : I want to explain something with regard to one of the statements made by the last speaker. One of the requests mentioned in our address presented to you this morning is that the survey charges shall be reduced. Some years ago, when the surveys were first commenced in our district, the charge made by the surveyor was £1 per day. Even if twenty small pieces were surveyed in one day, the charge would only be £1. After that the Government directed that £3 per survey was to be charged; so that if there were thirty small pieces the charges would amount to £90. This was the plan adopted by surveyors in the past, until lately; but now we are told that the surveyors charge £6 for surveying a piece of land. The charge now for surveying our •small blocks of land is £6 each. The land may only be a quarter of an acre in extent, yet there is a charge of £6 made; if it is only ten perches in extent £6 is charged. So that the surveyor, though he might survey a number of these small pieces in one day, yet charges £6 for every piece. Under this arrangement we feel that we are unable to meet these charges. They are too heavy. That is why we made the request, that you will look into this matter and have the charges reduced. Rotohiko Haupapa : This is a matter which largely affects the Natives—this matter of surveys —and I wish to say something on the subject. Some years ago a surveyor made a number of surveys at Maketu. His name was Frasi. That surveyor charged £1 per day ; and it made no difference whether he made one survey in a day or five or six different surveys, he charged £1 for all of them. So that if the surveyor completed six in one day each piece paid one proportion of the pound, and the result was that the charges came very light indeed. What Whititera has stated is perfectly true : the charges at present are very high. I certainly approve of the plan adopted by Mr. Frasi, which I have mentioned. Mr. Ballance : I will now reply to the various subjects which have been brought forward. With regard to the surveys, lam sorry to hear that the charges have been raised. I have made inquiry of Mr. Brabant, and lam informed that it is quite true. I think that some mistake has been made by the Survey Department, and I agree in the expression of opinion that the mode adopted by Mr. Frasi in charging so much a day is perhaps the best one; but I propose in future, as far as possible, to leave the question of employing the surveyors in the hands of the Natives themselves, so long as they employ qualified men. At any rate, whatever mode may be adopted, I shall see, as I said this morning, that the amount charged to the Natives shall be no more than the amount actually charged to the Government. I agree that you have a very solid grievance, and I shall see at once that it is remedied. With regard to a section of the Natives, or the Ngatiwhakaue, having business to transact at Maketu, I am afraid that time will not permit me to visit that district. At any rate, I shall not be able to go there before my return to Wellington. I should very much like to visit Maketu, because I have heard a very excellent account of the Natives who live in that part of the country, and I should like to see them very much. If, therefore, I can return before the session—if time will permit—l shall do so, and visit Maketu. Now, with regard to the Thermal 'Springs Act, I have heard what Tapsell has said. It is quite true, I believe, that the Ngatiwhakaue do wish that the Act should remain in force over the whole of the land proclaimed ; but it is right that I should say here that a few of the hapus, I am told, wish the Proclamation removed. Of course that may not influence lho to remove it; because, if there is a division of opinion I shall in that case have to exercise my own judgment. lam inclined to think that the Proclamation should not be removed off any portion of the land. That is my strong opinion, and it v/ill require very forcible arguments to induce me to consent to the removal of any portion of the Proclamation. Now, with regard to the surveys being placed under the District. Committees, I am inclined to think that in the survey of all Native lands the District Committee should be asked to give advice. At any rate, I shall see that notice of the surveys be sent to the Committee, in order that they may know what is going on. Now, with regard to the railway, I understood Tapsell to say that his particular hapu had given ten thousand acres, and sold ten thousand. That statement is hardly correct. The whole twenty thousand acres were sold by this hapu, and I would like to ask him whether that is not so ? lieiireii Tapihana : There was a document—a deed of gift added to the deed of sale—saying that some of the land was given—that a portion of the land was absolutely given. It was not stated in the deed of gift the exact number of acres that were given, but certain persons signed a supplementary deed saying that they gave their interest for nothing. Mr. Ballance : As a matter of fact the whole of the land was paid for. Now, Tapsell has put a question: he says ho has sold twenty thousand acres to the Government, and he says that his hapu have only got thirty thousand acres remaining, and he asks, Is that too much for the people to retain in their own hands ? He further wanted to know whether I applied to his particular hapu when I said that a certain portion of land should be sold to the Government, or to the company, in order that the railway should be constructed. Those are strong and proper questions, and I will give clear answers. He must, of course, recognize that there is no part of the country which will receive greater benefit than the Township of Ohineniutu. The position of the reserves or the leases is, as ho is aware, very unsatisfactory. A great many of the lessees refused to pay the rents, some of them are not able to pay, and. the Government have taken steps to compel them. He cannot complain that the Government have thrown away any chance in enforcing the leases. The Government have been strenuous in attempting to get for the Natives at any rate the prices obtained at the sale. The success of the whole township and the validity of these leases depend upon two things—that the Government township shall be the only township, and that there shall be no rival to it. And here I would point to the fact that some of the Native owners of land have been very much injuring the Government township by giving leases and encouraging building here in Ohinemutu. It must be clear to every one of you that, unless you support your own township and support the Government, the Government cannot get for you your rents. We think,

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therefore, that you ought to be all united in trying to assist the Government township. For, after all, it is your own township —it is your own land—the Government are only acting for you. Then, again, the success of the township depends upon the railway : if the railway is made all difficulties will disappear immediately, and if the railway is not made I am afraid that the difficulties will increase. lam mentioning these things to show you that it is to your interest to support the railway by giving to the Government a certain portion of land; but now I come to the point. You say you have sold to the Government twenty thousand acres, and you have only got thirty thousand acres left. Assuming this to be true, I must admit that you have acted in a very liberal spirit, and I would not ask your hapu to give any larger portion of land. My address applied particularly to the owners of land along the line of railway; for they must see that the railway itself will largely benefit the land which they occupy; and if they give up twenty thousand acres of land, and occupy twenty thousand acres, the twenty thousand acres will be worth more, when the railway is made, than the whole forty thousand acres were before the railway was made. You will see that the Government have very little to do with this matter. lam putting the whole question before you. It is not a Government question now at all. The company have undertaken to do this work, and I think that they will require the assistance of the Government before they can complete it. I wish, therefore, the whole of the hapus to discuss this question of the cession of land before next session, so that then the Government may be in a position to come forward, and to authorize the construction of the railway by raising the necessary amount of money. For, I fear, unless something of that kind is done, that the railway will be indefinitely postponed. That is the position with regard to the railway. Now, with respect to what Tapsell ha>s said about giving larger powers of self-government to the Natives. lam very glad to think that he agrees with the opinions and sentiments that I expressed this morning. He very rightly says that intertribal jealousy has been the cause of most of the mischief in the past to the Native people. There is no doubt of that fact at all, and I find that there is not only intertribal jealousy, but great jealousy amonst the hapus of one tribe, and I would strongly advise you in the future to arrange your difficulties and see whether you cannot agree on one line of action. You have heard, of course, that Tawhiao is exceedingly anxious to set up in this colony an independent Government. Now., that is a proposal that can never be tolerated, and lam glad to think that the whole of the Arawa Tribe is with me in this statement. There can be only one Government in this colony, and an independent Government will not be tolerated on any account whatever. There is one Parliament and one law, and we believe that the Natives will be more contented and more prosperous with one Government than they would be with two Governments. There is no difference of opinion amongst the Europeans on this subject—they are all agreed, and nineteen out of every twenty Maoris also agree that there should be only one Parliament and one Government, But, subject to that, I of course would give a very large amount of power to the Native people, and I see no objection at ail to a meeting of the Native chiefs as Tapsell has suggested. However, that is a matter more for the Native people themselves perhaps than for the Government. The present Government are always glad to see distinguished chiefs coming down to Wellington during Parliament to discuss questions, and that is perhaps the best way of meeting together and discussing questions of supreme importance to the people. It is my intention, however, before introducing Bills affecting the Native people, to have them circulated in Maori before the beginning of the session, so that, taking into consideration what I said this morning and what I have said now, there are ample means for the Native people to consider questions which relate to their interests alone. My desire is to see that the Native people should be treated precisely as the Europeans are treated, without favour, and that equal justice may be done to both races. Betireti Tapihana : I would explain with regard to what I said about Maketu. The representatives of the Maketu people have come here and brought their subjects with them. Do I understand you to say that you will not ask Ngatiwhakaue to give any more land for the railway ? Mr. Ballance : Yes; unless they do so voluntarily, because, as I said before, I think that they behaved in a very liberal spirit.

Notes of a Meeting between the Hon. Mr. Ballance and Natives at Mokoia, 18th February, 1885. Wi Keepa Ngawhau : I want to make known to you the thoughts of my people. [A song, "It is time for peacemaking."] This is an incantation to meet us as one people. I will now speak on the subjects that I wish to lay before the feet of you, the Native Minister. Welcome! We are glad you have come to see us. Welcome to Eotorua ! Come to see the people who are loyal to the Queen. Come to see the people who took part in upholding the Government of this Island against the King. Welcome to Mokoia ! —to the land of your ancestress, Hinemoa. Come to Mokoia, where the whole of the Arawa Tribe were destroyed by Ngapuhi. It was on account of the law stepping in that we were prevented from taking revenge on the Ngapuhi. Baratemea : Come to Mokoia. Come to the place that Sir George Grey used to visit, and bring his words to us. Sir George Grey was the first white chief to come and see us. You are the second. Te Eiri Karamu : We bid you welcome. You are the person who is to bring prosperity to us. The Native people were very glad that you have come to see us. Come to bring us relief from the troubles which afflict us. During the numerous Governments that have existed in New Zealand in the past none of them have afforded relief to the Maori people. Mr. Bryce afforded us very little relief. Welcome to Eotorua —to the resting-place of Bangituhau, our great ancestor. Come to the resting-place of your ancestor, Tutanekai. Come to Mokoia, which is the most sacred place in our district. Come to the Lake of Eotorua ; our mana rests over this lake. The first speaker has told you that we have always been loyal; as a proof of it you find us living on our own land. Come to see the Native people, and to bring them relief. We wish you every prosperity.

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J/r. Ballance : My friends, the Native people of Mokoia, it has given me great pleasure to be here to-day, and to receive your warm and cordial greeting. lam very much delighted with the way in which you have received me. That greeting seems to convey the position of the Arawa Tribe generally, its unfaltering loyalty to the Queen, to the Government, and the laws. When Wi Keepa called upon me yesterday, and asked me to visit the Island of Mokoia, I was afraid that time would not permit me to do so, but I found that I could not resist the strenuousness of his appeal; and now I am greatly delighted that I have come here, for I have not in any part of the Island received a more warm and friendly greeting. Te Keepa has said that his object is to bring the two races together. I reciprocate that sentiment: that is my desire. Another speaker has said that I have come to bring you prosperity. That is also my desire; but I will tell you this : that no one person can bring you entire prosperity unless you yourselves largely contribute to it. Prosperity must largely depend upon the industry and unity of the people themselves. My wish is to assist you in attaining that end, but in order to reach it we must co-operate together. I recognize that there is no tribe in New Zealand that has been more friendly or more loyal to the Queen, and therefore there is no tribe for which I have a greater regard than for the Arawa. I recognize also that this is the sacred spot of the Arawa Tribe. There is no part of New Zealand more rich in history or tradition. It was on this island that you experienced the greatest calamity that has ever befallen any tribe, and I am glad to hear that the attachment of the people to the Government has prevented them from seeking to take revenge. The time for revenge is past, and now we must seek together to live in peace and amity under the laws. Then, your ancestors lie buried on this island —ancestors whose fame has reached to all parts of the world, for there is no book written upon the Maoris and their traditions that does not contain an account of the story of Hinemoa. That is one reason why I visited your island—to see the place where so many valuable traditions are enshrouded. I trust, therefore, after we have disposed of the business, that I shall have an hour or so to spend in looking over the wonderful sights of the island. And now I will say no more with regard to the greeting which you have given me, but will ask you to proceed as soon as possible to business. I will only add that I shall never forget the greeting which you have given me to-day. Batema Awekoteko: I will now mention the subjects which we wish to discuss. The first subject is the Tikitere Hot Springs; wo ask what is the wish of the Government with respect to them. It is known that when the late Native Minister visited us, we handed that land over to the Government for the purpose of having a town made there. It is our desire with respect to that land, that it should be cut up and leased. The second subject we wish to talk about is the Island of Mokoia ; let that be held according to the Native mana or customs. We ask that no surveys shall be made of it, nor any leases be permitted to be made for portions of the land on this island. The third subject for consideration is the land on the Bast Coast, obtained by the Arawa through conquest, namely : Otawa, Te Puke, Bangiura, Pukeroa, Kaikopoku, Purekina, Waitahanui, Tahunaro, Whakarewarewa. These lands have all passed into the hands of the Government. Seeing that the Land Court did not admit the claims of all the hapus of the Arawa to these lands, we ask the Government to give us some consideration for our interests in those places. The fourth request we ■have to make is, that you will be pleased to give us a school for our children. We have not settled whether the school should bo built on Mokoia or at Te Ngae, on the mainland. The Government formerly had a school established at Tikitere ; we wish that school to be reopened. We only want one school; we have not decided where we would like it. The fifth subject is this, we ask that the Eotorua-Patetere Block may be re-heard. When that block was brought before the Court, Ngatiwhakaue and all its hapus joined together in setting up different ancestors ; they set aside our common ancestors, and set up different ones for the purpose of excluding us. But when the Court was held the Ngatiwhakaue set up our very ancestors for the purpose of having the block subdivided. We ask that the privilege of local option may be given to us ; that publichouses may not be sent into our district, unless we consent to them being built, only as far as affects the Tikitere Block, and the Island of Mokoia. What we wish is that no public-houses should be built on Mokoia or within the boundaries of our block, without the consent of these two tribes being first obtained, because we are now becoming fully alive to the evils attending on publichouses. We ask that the dog-tax and road-tax shall not be collected in this district. Another request that we have to make is that you will be good enough to give us some grass-seed. The Maketu-Eotorua road runs through the Whakapungakau Block; we ask that we may be helped to fence that block, by a present of fencing wire. It is to prevent our stock from straying on to the road. We would contribute the posts and the labour. We only ask the Government to assist us by giving us some fencing wire. The distance we want to fence is about three or four miles. Our tenth request is that you will relax the restrictions affecting the issue of arms and ammunition. The eleventh subject affects an old man called Ihaka Ngapaura, whose name was left out of the Whakapungakau Block. We have already applied to the Chief Judge of the Native Land Court, and have been informed that there is no law under which it could be done. We also ask that Te Ngae may be made a polling place for the election of Members of Parliament and other members. It is only for the Maori members, because there are not many of us qualified to vote for European members. Thirteenth : We ask that a piece of land at Te Ngae, three hundred and sixty acres, given to the missionaries, may be reheard. The reason we make this request is that the people living here are not aware how the missionaries became possessed of that land. Our idea is that the land was given as a mark of affection to the missionaries for religious purposes, but, seeing that it is no longer put to that use, we think that the land should come back to us. Another reason why we wish the matter inquired into is that we may know how the missionaries became possessed of that land. W Te do not understand at all how it was that the land passed from us. Fourteenth: We ask that we may be authorized to erect a public pound about Te Ngae; that we may be authorized to erect it and to keep it. The reason we ask this is that there are constant disputes between us and the European living at Te Ngae. We are always quarrelling over our stock. Fifteenth: We ask that a letter-box or post-office maybe opened at the

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European house at Te Ngae. The Committee of these tribes would appoint somebody to look after this. These are all the subjects that we wish to bring before you. To Kiri Karamu : Before yOu reply to our questions there is one subject which lias been omitted from our list. We brought it under the notice of Mr. Bryce forrnerty. It is about the stone image of our ancestor Matua-a-tonga. We ask that the law may order that image to be brought back to us. That image is now in gaol in Ohinemutu. We also ask that a Native Assessor may be appointed for these two hapus as a colleague for Mr. Brabant; also, a Native policeman for these two hapus. The reason we make this request is that a bad name has been given to this people —members of these hapus have been accused of being thieves—that is why I ask that an Assessor and a Native policeman should be appointed. Concerning our request that spirit licenses shall not be issued for any house in our district, I have taken a great dislike to ardent spirits. I will never consent to Europeans building hotels within my boundary. I wish you prosperity. Wi Keepa Ngawhau endorsed what Te Kiri said with regard to. spirit licenses. Kereopa : Eor many years past we have had no medical attendance. The only place at which we could seek relief was the Hot Springs. Our health depends upon the preservation of these hot springs. For some years past, when winter comes round, the lake rises and overflows the hot spring on this island, and we cannot use it. We have done all we can to keep the lake-water out, but we cannot do so. We ask that the Government will give us some assistance in repairing this hot spring. We shall be very glad if you can help us in getting something done to this spring. That is the only doctor we ask for. Mr. Ballance: Eriends of Mokoia, you have presented to me to-day a very long list of grievances. lam afraid they are too long to have them all granted to you. It is the longest list that I have yet been presented with. I suppose the reason is that it is so long since any Native Minister has been here before. However, I will take them one by one, and see how each case stands on its merits. The first request is with regard to the Tikitere Hot Springs. The subdivision has taken place, and I understand that it was the intention to turn it into a village. I will see that that promise is carried out as soon as possible. I understand, however, that the subdivision has not yet been completed; but when the subdivision is complete, then we shall be able to carry out the promise. lam told that the Tikitere springs are very valuable, and are likely in time to attract a great many tourists, which will be a source of great wealth to the Native owners. But I would like to warn you upon one point. It .has been the custom for some Natives about here to levy blackmail upon tourists—to charge extortionate sums for seeing the springs. Now, I advise you in this matter to be reasonable for your own sakes; if you charge too much you will keep the tourists away; you should, therefore, fix a low scale for the charges, if there are to be any, and not depart from the scale. You have asked that no leases should be given, and no surveys made on the Island of Mokoia. The Island of Mokoia is your own; it will remain with you to say whether surveys shall be made and leases granted. No person shall interfere with Mokoia against your wishes. Reference has been made to the Toa claims on the coast; and it is said that the late Sir Donald McLean gave a promise with regard to the Toa claims. In looking to see whether such a promise had been given, I referred to the speech which was made by Sir Donald McLean on the occasion, and I could find no promise. The matter was before Parliament last session. I can state nothing further on the subject until the inquiry is complete. You have asked for a school at Tikitere, and if you are prepared to give a site, I will bring this matter before the Minister of Education, Mr. Stout, and I think I can give you a promise in his name that a school will be immediately erected. It will, therefore, be for you to select a site and send a letter to Wellington asking that a building may be erected. With regard to the Botorua-Patetere Block, I understand that the subdivision has taken place. The land having, therefore, passed the Court for some time—two years—it is impossible now to have a rehearing. , The time has elapsed in which a rehearing can be granted. Yoii have asked that no publichouses may be erected on Mokoia. You have the power under the Act to exclude publichouses from Mokoia, and the Government will assist you in carrying out that desirable object. lam very much pleased to hear that you see the necessity of guarding against the introduction of drink amongst the people. No cause has more contributed to the decadence of the Native race than drink, and the Maoris, for their own sakes, should themselves take united action against the introduction of drink amongst them. Some time since a petition was sent by Tawhiao and the chiefs of the Waikato asking that the prohibition should extend over the whole of the Waikato country. The Government recognized that the prayer of that petition should be granted, and the Proclamation was extended over some millions of acres of land, excluding strong drink from that area. The matter rests largely with yourselves, and if you ask the Government for assistance it will not be denied. You are opposed to the dog-tax and to rating. lam now thinking of handing over the dog-tax to be collected by the Native Committees for Native purposes only; and I suppose that you will have no objection to pay the dog-tax when you find that the revenue is distributed for your own benefit in the district. lam told that it will be a great thing when a large number of the Native dogs are cleared off, and that the breed is likely to be improved greatly by a reduction in the number. In some places they are becoming an intolerable nuisance. Now, with regard to the subject of rating, we wish that the Natives should understand this : That when they get land in their own name, they should stand in the same position as the Europeans and pay rates. The roads can only be maintained by rates being levied, and the roads give a value to the land. How can you get your produce to market without roads ? and how are roads to be maintained without rates ? It is better that the Native owners of land should pay rates than that there should be tollbars erected upon the roads. Now, the Government have no tollbars on the roads, and they ask, therefore, that the Natives shall pay rates the same as Europeans. There is no reason why the two races, in this respect, should not approach each other. You ask that the two races shall be made one. Why, therefore, refuse the responsibility which the Europeans have to bear ? With regard to the Island of Mokoia, there are no roads upon it, and therefore it shall pay no rates. It is not liable for rates under the law, and rates will not be charged upon it. Now, with regard to a present of grass-seed, I would like to say

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this : this Government does not make presents of this kind. I think a spirit of independence should be cultivated amongst the people, and that when they want these things they should pay for them, the same as the Europeans have to do. We want to guard against the people becoming a race of beggars, for nothing is more degrading to a people than to be continually asking alms and assistance. Now assistance has been asked—that the Government shall give the Natives some fencing-wire, if they will supply the labour. The Government assists Europeans to make the roais, and therefore should assist the Natives. I think, therefore, that you have made a very proper request and a very liberal offer. This is a public work, and you offer to do a portion of it if the Government will do the remainder. I therefore accept your offer,, and the Government will contribute the wire. With respect to arms and ammunition, the restrictions at the present time are not severe. Any respectable Native can, by applying to the Eesident Magistrate, obtain as much ammunition as he pleases for shooting birds. The restrictions do not apply to respectable Natives, but only to those of bad character; and I suppose we are agreed that there are bad characters amongst the Natives as there are amongst the Europeans ; but if any respectable man wants a gun all he has to do is to ask the Eesident Magistrate for permission to buy one. Now, with regard to the request that has been made that the name of Ihaka Ngapaura should be placed in a block of land, I am sorry to say that the law does not permit that to be done. The list of names has been finally made up and cannot now be altered ; but I recognize that there has been some mistake in excluding the name of Ihaka from the list of names, and I would make this suggestion and convey it in the nature of a recommendation, that the people themselves combine together to give Ihaka a piece of land. You have got the land amongst you, and nothing is easier than to arrange that Ihaka shall have a portion of it. A request has been made that Te Ngae shall be made a polling-place in future for Maori elections. lam told that there are sixty residents there. That shall be done. You have referred to a grant of land made to the missionaries many years ago, and you say that, since that land has been leased and is paying rent, it should be restored to the original owners, and taken away from the missionaries. You assume that it is not now used for religious purposes, but that is hardly correct; the rents are used by the missionaries for religious purposes, I presume. The land must have been originally given by the Native chiefs, otherwise it could not have been given into the possession of the missionaries, and I am told that it is now held under Crown grant. Now, you know that a Crown grant cannot be disturbed. Their title is complete, and cannot be disturbed now. My advice to you, therefore, is to let the missionaries remain undisturbed in the land. You have asked that a public pound shall bo established at To Ngae. The Act that was passed last session gives to the local bodies the power of erecting pounds; but it also gives to the Natives the right of suing for trespass. If the European cattle trespass upon your grounds and destroy your crops, you have the right of suing them in the Magistrate's Court. You have also the further right under the Act to make a pound on your own land. But you are required in a certain time to drive the cattle to some pound at a distance. The Impounding Act of last session was a very important Act—important to both races—and I am consequently having a translation made of it into Maori, when I intend to circulate it amongst the people of the colony. Now you have asked for a letter-box at Te Ngae, and you propose that a Committee shall be appointed to take charge of the letters. The coach passes Te Ngae, and therefore I think there will be no difficulty in arranging the matter, and I shall bring it before the Postmaster-General on my return to Wellington, and ask him to grant your request. Now a subject of great importance has been brought before me. (I think I have answered the fifteen subjects, and I hope you are all satisfied.) Te Kiri has referred to the ancestor of the Maori people, a stone image. I cannot understand how a stone image can be your ancestor ; but lam told that it was brought in the first Maori canoe to New Zealand, and that it is highly prized by the Arawa people, more especially by the people of Mokoia. Now that stone image has been somewhat desecrated : it has actually been placed for safe custody in a police cell, and I should like to assist you to have your ancestor restored to the Island of Mokoia, where it remained for five hundred years. But I have one little difficulty to surmount. You sold the image to the European, and got' the money. The European says that this ancestor of yours is his own, and he thinks so much of the ancient progenitor of the Maori race that he is determined to stick to it. What am Itodo in such a case as that? He says that no money will buy it back again. Now, I may say this, if you can only arrange with the pakeha to get the image back again, I will undertake to have it restored to Mokoia, for I freely admit that this is a more proper place for your ancestor than a police cell. If you will only assist me I am ready to do what I possibly can to have the image once more restored. Can I say any more ? It is for you to advise the remedy, and I will assist you in applying it. I have been asked to appoint a Native Assessor, and I am informed that a Native Assessor has lately died—an important chief amongst you. That is a reasonable request, and I will have it done. Assessors are not now paid by the Government, except when they perform some duty. We recognize that it is a position of trust and confidence, the same as a Justice of the Peace among the Europeans. We wish to make it a position of honour, so that the best man in the tribe will be appointed an Assessor. If you will select one from among yourselves, and send me his name, I will have the appointment made. lam not so sure about the policeman. If you are going to exclude drink from amongst you, there will be no necessity for the appointment of a policeman. No matter what people say, the Arawa are not thieves, but people often become thieves through drink; if, therefore, you are going to give up drink, there will be no necessity for the policeman. We will wait and see the result of that effort before the appointment is made. You have referred to your doctor, and I understood from that reference that you do not wish an European physician to be appointed amongst you, but that your doctor was in your hot spring. Was I right in placing that interpretation on your words ? [Yes.] Well, the Government are prepared to assist you in repairing this spring, but I am not sure that we can keep back the lake. Water finds its level, and lam afraid that when the lake rises the spring will rise too. However, we will do what we can to assist you in the matter. Now I would like to tell you what the Government are doing on the mainland with regard to medical assistance. "Under the agreement for handing over the Township of Ohinemutu, it has been arranged I—G. 1.

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that a hospital shall be placed at the disposal of the Maoris free of charge. Since my arrival amongst you I have given orders that that hospital shall be furnished and prepared for the reception of patients, so that in future when any of you are ailing you will be sent over to the hospital and receive medical advice gratis. Ido not know that the Government can do any more for you in that respect. And now I have answered all the subjects referred to in your speeches, and I hope you are satisfied with the answers that are given. If any further explanation should be required, lam prepared to give it. Patera Pokeno asked whether it would not be more convenient for Mr. Johnson to receive their applications for arms and ammunition. Mr. Ballance. said that Mr. Johnson could receive the applications and forward them to the Eesident Magistrate. Petera Pokeno asked that some blasting powder might be given to help them to split the posts for the fence. Mr. Ballance: The suggestion that Mr. Johnson should issue licenses, or refer them to the Government, is a very good one, and, I think, will save you trouble in future. I therefore consent to that proposal. With regard to blasting powder, the blasting powder has always been given to the Natives of Tauranga, and it shall be given to you. Wi Keepa Ngaivhau said that he did not object to anything that had been said about Matua-a-tonga; it was he who handed over that stone to the European. The whole tribe were very angry with him for his action in that matter. The case was taken before the Eesident Magistrate, but it was not decided who was in the wrong. The result was that their ancestor was put in gaol. Some time afterwards Mr. Bryce came to Eotorua. William Marsh told Mr. Bryce that it was time their ancestor was sent back, seeing that it had been degraded. He (Wi Keepa) approved of that request, and it was stated that they should apply to Mr. Brabant to have the stone sent back. They applied to him and also to the policeman, and asked that the stone should be returned, but he did not know at present how the matter stood. With regard to the Native Minister's promise to assist them in repairing the hot springs, he (Keepa) did not think himself that Mr. Ballance should have been asked to help them. Te Kiri Karamu said that he would always ask the Government to assist him when he required help. He considered that the hot springs were of great benefit to every one. He would be very glad if the Native Minister would assist them not only to put this spring in repair, but other springs also. He hoped that the Minister did not consider that the Natives have been exorbitant in the charges made to the tourists at Tikitere. The charge was fixed at ss. a week some years ago, and the same payment is still in force. Mr. Ballance: As to what Te Kiri has said about the charges at Tikitere, I did not refer to Tikitere when I talked of exorbitant charges. What I said was this : that exorbitant charges were made in some places to tourists for viewing the springs, and then I expressed the hope that the people of Tikitere would not follow so bad an example —that they would not do a thing so injurious to themselves. I am very glad to hear from Te Kiri that the charges there are moderate, and I think that the people have shown great intelligence in fixing the charges so low. With respect to the repair of the hot spring here, I do not see why any one should object to the Government giving you assistance; but the Government, in repairing the hot spring, do not wish to obtain any rights over the spring which they do not possess at present. The spring will remain open for the use of the Maoris, and I suppose that you do not object to Europeans using it also. Now, I would like to say one word with regard to the hospital. Ido not mean that slight cases of sickness should be sent to the hospital; 1 only referred to dangerous and serious cases, where the person was likely to die; but of course the hospital will not be open for slight or trivial cases. And now with regard to your ancestor. Where is Wi Keepa ? I think that he should take the lead in getting back your ancestor, and that he should bring it back himself for the tribe, and not allow a policeman, by returning the image to the island, still further to degrade it. It is a very degrading thing for your ancestor to be in gaol, and I hope you will take immediate steps to have him released; but I am told that when a proposal was once before made to have him returned to the Island of Mokoia, you could not agree among yourselves. Why was this ? Why should there be any dispute about it ? If you agree about his return, and the European who paid the money does not object, I will have him brought back to-morrow. So you must arrange that matter among yourselves and let me know. Te Kiri Karamu said that that was the only ancestor who was not eaten by Ngapuhi.

Notes of a Meeting between the Hon. Mr. Ballance and the Tuhoubangi Natives at Whakarewarewa, on the 19th February, 1885. Address of welcome. This is a welcome from us, the Tuhourangi Tribe, to you the Native Minister. Friend, salutations to you. Our joy at your coming to see us is very great, because we know that you are coming to hear the subjects that we will bring before you. Now for the first time prosperity will come upon us through the action of your Government, and perhaps your Government will be able to take away the troubles which rest upon us. Here are we, the Tuhourangi Tribe, assembled to greet you and to welcome you to our place. "We ask you to come, and to hear and consider the subjects we shall bring before you. We wish you all prosperity. Mr. Ballance : My friends of the Tuhourangi Tribe, 1 beg to return you my sincere thanks for the very cordial welcome you have given me—a welcome which you have given me in the name of the Queen and the Government. I have never met with a more hearty reception than from the Tuhourangi section. lam glad to come amongst you, principally because I bring you a message from the Government of friendship. You have referred to the policy of the Government as one bringing peace and prosperity. In reply to that I say that it is the earnest desire of the Government to promote the prosperity of the Maori people. Our policy is not one of force and repression to be applied to the loyal Natives of New Zealand, but of friendly discussion and

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assistance to enable them to work out their own destiny in a way that will secure the permanent prosperity and happiness of the race. When we, therefore, have any measure which we desire to establish by law for the good of the people, it is our intention to take the people into our confidence. Questions, therefore, of great importance must be settled by the consent of the people themselves. If I could not administer the affairs of the Native people in the way that I have said I should cease to be Native Minister ; but I believe that our policy is calculated in the highest degree to promote the prosperity of the people generally, and therefore I have confidence in that policy, and will pursue it to the end. I have to apologise for not being able yesterday to keep my appointment to meet you. I had intended to leave for Tauranga this morning, but changed my intention in order that I might be able to give sufficient time to the people of Tuhourangi, and therefore I trust you will excuse my not meeting you yesterday. Again I thank you for your cordial welcome, and shall now ask you to proceed to business, so that we may have sufficient time to discuss those matters of importance to both peoples. Himiona te Eura : Come to New Zealand. Come to the Arawa. Bring peace and goodwill. Come to dispel the gloom and darkness, and bring us the light. There were many good actions performed in the past, but we have not benefited by them to the fullest extent. You are a new Minister; you will be able to lead us in the right path. We hope it will be for you to bring us a good policy and to direct us properly. Welcome to Tuhourangi, who are a large and important section of the Arawa people. This tribe has remained under the Queen's laws from the first. My hands have never been stained with blood. None of the Tuhourangi have taken up arms against the Europeans ; on the contrary, the Tuhourangi have always performed the military services required of them by the Government, and upheld the laws. Welcome ! Welcome, our parent 1 We strongly indorse the words you have spoken. Bring us health. Bring us prosperity. Tamehana te Ngarara then led a song of welcome, and said : Welcome my friend ! Welcome ! the father of the Native people. You are like a saviour of the Maori people. It is for you to come to preserve them, and take away all that is evil. You have come to show affection to your Maori children. Come to the resting-place of the canoe. Bangihiwea : Welcome, our friend. Bring us good tidings. Bring us the light of day. Come and see us and listen to our words. Come while the sun shines high in the heavens. [Song.] Mr. Ballance : My friends, I thank you once more for your words of welcome, and I have only this to say, I shall not forget them. Wiremu Pauro : These are the subjects which Tuhourangi wish to lay before you : — {Translation of letter.'] " Te Wairoa, 18th February, 1885.—T0 Mr. Ballance, Native Minister.—Friend, salutations ! These are the matters which Tuhourangi will now bring before you for your consideration—First, Botomahana-Parekarangi Block; let that be reheard. This is a matter which affects Tuhourangi very deeply, and Tuhourangi will listen with great interest to your reply on the subject. Second, let subdivisions be made in this block, apportioning it to the various tribes." Wi Keepa llangvpuawhe : Tuhourangi surveyed their external boundaries, but, when the land was brought before the Court, one portion was awarded to a different tribe, and another portion was given jointly to Tuhourangi and another tribe, and so on for the whole block. It was cut up in that manner. In future we do not wish to have the whole block heard at once ;we would like the various internal blocks taken one after the other, because some people who own a bit of land on the far side have to make a claim to the whole block, and conduct their case as for the whole block. Wiremu Pauro : Third, we ask that the District Native Committee will be allowed to adjudicate upon this block and ascertain the title—that is, to the various pieces that I have mentioned. Fourth, let it be left to Tuhourangi to decide the date upon which this block shall be heard. Fifth, let the adjudication be held at Te Wairoa. Sixth, we ask that authority may be given to the nineteen persons forming the Tuhourangi Committee, that they may be legally constituted. We ask that these nineteen persons forming the local Committee of Tuhourangi may be authorized so that they can act under the direction of the District Native Committee, and so that they may be able to deal with local matters. Seventh, we ask that the District Native Committee may be authorized to adjudicate upon the Paengaroa Block. Eighth, that the charges made by the surveyors may be reduced. These are all the subjects brought forward by Tuhourangi as a tribe; but there are several matters which will be brought forward by the sub-tribe of Tuhourangi, by Ngatiwahiao. First, the Ngatiwahiao ask that a Native school may be built at Whakarewarewa. We will give three acres for a school site. The site must be duly considered, and it must be decided where the site shall be; it will be a little further inland than this. Second, we want a township laid out at Turikuri. Third, that the bridge about to be built across the stream beside here may be widened to eight feet. The Government officer knows about that bridge. Fourth, that we may be allowed to purchase arms and ammunition ; that we may be allowed to buy arms and ammunition at reasonable prices, such as those at which they are supplied to Europeans. Fifth, we ask that a rehearing may be granted for the Pukeroa-Aruawhata Block. Sixth, that the lands over which the Arawa have a right by conquest, and which have already passed into the hands of the Government —that is, lands in the vicinity of Maketu. Let the Government give the Natives some monetary consideration. Seventh, That the Government will give us half a ton of fencing-wire. These are all the subjects we have to bring before you. Mr. Ballance : I will now take the subjects in the order in which you have presented them. The first matter to which you have referred is the rehearing of the Eotomahana-Parekarangi Block. In the last session of Parliament the Government, hearing that it was desirable that this block should be reheard, passed a special Act enabling it to be done. By that Act the land was placed in the same position as Native land the title to which had never bsen determined. You ask that the rehearing of that block shall take place, and I suppose you wish it to be reheard quickly. The

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rehearing must take place by law, and, as to the time, that I shall refer to the Land Court Judges. You say, secondly, that, in the matter of subdivisions in the block, they should be heard severally. That is closely connected with the other part—the first question, and that I shall refer to the Chief Judge who has the matter under his control. Thirdly, you wish the Native Committee to adjudicate upon these questions before they are referred to the Native Land Court. The Committee has now certain powers given it by law. It is competent for them to proceed to ascertain, in the first place, the ownership of the block, and to make recommendations to the Native Land Court. I have no doubt, therefore, that the Committee will proceed to perform the duties imposed upon them by law. Now you wish the Tuhourangi to decide the date of hearing. Any representations which you have to make upon that question will be forwarded at once to the Chief Judge of the Native Land Court. If you will let the Government know they will take immediate steps to acquaint the Land Court with your desires. Then you wish that the adjudication next time shall take place at Te Wairoa instead of Ohinemutu. I should have thought that it would have been more for your convenience that ,the rehearing should take place at Ohinemutu. It is not so far away at any rate from Whakarewarewa as Te Wairoa. The wish of the Government is, in these matters, to have the Court sitting where it is convenient for the great majority of the owners of the land ; and if Te Wairoa is more convenient for the great bulk of the owners, then I think the sitting should take place at Te Wairoa; but I think if it is more convenient for the great bulk of the owners that it should be at Ohinemutu, then 1 think the Court should sit there. If you will write a letter showing where the people wish it to be held, and the numbers residing at the different places, we will forward a copy of it to the Native Land Court. I understand that you have a local Committee appointed out of the Tuhourangi Tribe, consisting of nineteen persons, whose duty it is, I suppose, to attend to questions relating to the interests of the tribe, and you ask for that Committee authority. There is only one Committee that has authority by law, and that is the District Committee ; but the Government do not object to your electing a Committee for the purpose of considering questions relating to your own hapu. It is not illegal, but it is not constituted under the law. Now, we propose next session to introduce legislation, and the Bill will be circulated amongst you before the session, establishing local Committees to look after the blocks of land belonging to the different hapus and tribes; and . will explain to you how that Committee will be constituted. Suppose there are a hundred people declared to be the owners of a block of land. The owners will have the power of electing a Committee of, say, seven persons, to manage their affairs relating to the land. That Committee will have power to carry out the wishes of the owners. When the Committee wish to sell or lease their lands, they will apply to the Board to do it for them; and, after arranging for the surveys and roads, the Board will proceed to act according to the wishes of the Committee. But the Committee may sometimes act contrary to the wishes of the great majority of the owners. When that is the case, the majority of the owners may veto the action of the Committee. The object, of this is to place the control of the land in the owners of the land. There will, however, be one limitation to the action of the Committee, and it is this : the land must be sold or leased under the land laws of the colony, and this is to prevent the land being disposed of in too large areas, the Government believing that it is to the interest of both races that the land should carry the largest possible population in comfort. I will now proceed to the next subject, in which you ask that the District Committee should have power to investigate the Paengaroa Block. The same answer will be made to that as in the other case. The Committee have certain powers to investigate titles under the Act, and they may exercise those powers. Now, with regard to survey charges, you ask that they may be reduced. lam sorry to say that I find in many cases that the survey charges are much too high. In some cases unauthorized surveyors have been selected by the Natives to perform their surveys, and the Surveyor-General has been compelled to decline to acknowledge their work: the result is, that in many cases the Natives have had to have their work done over again. I propose going into this question upon my return to Wellington, and seeing that the charges are so regulated that the Natives will have ample powers of protecting themselves. I think that the District Committee should know what is going on in this matter ; and, in future, when an application is made to have land surveyed, I have given instructions that a copy of the application shall be sent to the Chairman of the Native Committee. The Committee will then have power to inquire whether the surveyor is authorized, and they will also have power to check the charges. I hope, therefore, that in future the survey charges will be so reduced and so regulated that you may have no further cause of complaint. These are the eight subjects brought forward by the Tuhourangi Tribe, and, if the explanations are not sufficient I will explain further after I have referred to the subjects brought forward by the other hapu. I will now refer to the questions brought forward by the Ngatiwahiao hapu, and I will proceed in the same way as in respect of the others. You are desirous to have a Native school, and I would like to ask you how many children you think would go to the school. Wi Pauro : About fifty. Mr. Ballance : That is very good, but I would like also to point out that there is great irregularity in the attendance of Native children, and I would like to ask you as a favour that, when a Native school is established, you will take action to see that the children attend regularly. The school-teachers complain that sometimes the attendance will be eighty, for instance, and sometimes it will suddenly be reduced to fifty, and, through the irregularity of attendance, a teacher is prevented from doing justice to the children in their education. Now, I would ask you, if a Native school is established, to see that the children attend regularly. lam glad to find that you have offered a site for the school. I will bring the subject before the Minister of Education—who is Mr. Stout, and I shall recommend him to establish a school hero as soon as the site has been fixed You have also asked that a township should be established at Turikuri. lam afraid that a township cannot be established until a subdivision of the land takes place, for at present it is impossible to find out the owners; and it will, therefore, be necessary to have the subdivisions before the Government could proceed—if they were disposed to do so—to establish a township. Ac

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soon as the subdivisions have taken place the Government will consider whether a township can be established. The district is under the Thermal Springs Act, and I presume that you are satisfied with that Act. I have found, up to the present time, that every hapu of the Arawa Tribe is thoroughly satisfied with that Act, except one; and I think I was able to convince even that particular hapu that they were best protected by allowing the Act to remain upon their land. They seemed first of all to be desirous of selling the whole of their land—a thing that would be most injurious, if not fatal, to the hapu. I strongly recommended them to retain, at any rate, ten thousand acres of land for the use of the hapu; that would be one hundred and forty-three acres to each inhabitant, and the result would be that they would be protected in future against the dangers of pauperism. Thirdly, you have asked that the bridge may be widened; the present width of the bridge is four feet, and you ask that it shall be made eight feet. You must remember that the four feet was your own proposal, and I am afraid that it has gone too far, even if it were desirable, to change it to eight feet, because I understand that tenders have been called for. I can see very little object in changing it to eight feet. You could not very well bring carriages in amongst the hot springs. lam afraid that you would be soon living on horse-flesh if you were to do that. Now, I would say one word with regard to this bridge lam informed that you charge tourists 3s. to cross the creek here for the purpose of viewing the springs, and the tourists complain that the charge is exorbitant. When it was first proposed that this bridge should be erected, it was said that, if the bridge were put up, the Natives would reduce their charges. In other places no charge whatever is made to view the hot springs, and I think it is only a reasonable return that you should reduce the charge—say, to Is. 6d. —as soon as the bridge is up; and I think that, if you do so, you will receive as much money as you receive now; for the present charge is prohibitive, and keeps a large number of people away: I believe, indeed, that you will receive more money if you reduce the charges, because you will be attracting tourists. I have authorized the bridge to be constructed rapidly, and hope that in a few weeks it will be completed. The fourth subject refers to the purchase of arms and ammunition. At present there is no difficulty on the part of any respectable Native in purchasing arms and ammunition. In future Mr. Johnson will have power to give authority for the purchase of arms and ammunition, and, as he will be residing in the district, you will have no difficulty in the matter. When you have received the permission you can buy them, in any shop you please, and, of course, you will do then what Europeans do—that is, buy in the cheapest shop. There will be no restriction on your purchasing in any one place—you can purchase where you please. The object of the restrictions is that some Natives, who are not of very respectable character, should be prevented from getting an unlimited supply of arms and ammunition; but those restrictions do not apply to respectable Natives. I suppose that you will agree with me that there are bad Maoris as well as bad Europeans. lam happy to think that they are only few in number however. The fifth subject to which you have referred is, the rehearing of the Pukeroa-Oruawhata Block. This block is part of the Township of Ohinemutu, and the land of that township has been sold—that is to say, the leases have been sold, and people are paying rent upon those leases ; it is, therefore, impossible now that the rehearing of that block can take place. You have referred to the Toa claims. That Toa question is involved in great difficulty. It was said last session that Sir Donald McLean, many years ago, had given a promise that these Toa claims should be met, and it was said that he had given this promise in the speech that he had made upon one occasion. That speech was published in the Waka Maori; but when we came to go into the speech to find out whether the promise was contained in it or not, we discovered that there was no allusion to that matter at all, and, therefore, there was only the statement of Mr. Sheehan that the promise had been made. This caused great surprise in the Committee, and the Committee were in doubt as to what action to take. The matter has been left over till next session, when a further inquiry will take place, and I have no doubt that justice will be done. Well, now, you have asked for a ton and a half of fencing-wire. For what road do you want this wire ? Wiremu Pauro ; We want it to fence the right-hand side of the Taupo Boad. Mr. Ballance : The Government, in some cases, have given fencing-wire for a Government road where the Natives have undertaken to supply the labour and the posts. Would you be prepared, therefore, if the Government gave the wire, to supply the labour and the posts ? Wiremu Pauro : Yes. Mr. Ballance: Then, since you are prepared to do that, I will recommend the matter to the Minister for Public Works. I shall ask you therefore to put your proposal in writing, stating where the road is, the mileage of the road you want fenced, and I will send it to the Minister for Public Works. I have now referred to the various subjects you have brought forward, and shall be prepared to answer any questions you may desire to put. Wi Keepa Bangipuaivhe : With regard to the place where the Court should be held when the rehearing of the Eotomahana-Parekarangi Block takes place, if—as I think it will be—it is found that this rehearing was granted on the application of Tuhourangi, and that application still remains, I think that the choice of the place should be left with Tuhourangi, because, when the adjudication took place formerly, Tuhourangi were put to great straits in providing food; and it was found that, although Tuhourangi had to bring their food from a great distance, yet they were able to supply food for their adversaries. Tuhourangi thinks that they, being the most vitally interested in this block, should have the rehearing fixed for Te Wairoa. The bulk of the people who have to go there, apart from Tuhourangi, will be the counter-claimants, and the Tuhourangi will be able to provide food with the assistance of Ngatiwahiao. My plan would be this : that all lands in the vicinity of Ohinemutu should be heard at Ohinemutu, and all lands near Wairoa should be heard at Wairoa. If this request is granted, Tuhourangi will build a house expressly for the accommodation of the Court. Mr. Ballance : That is a very liberal offer, and if you will put it in writing in a letter to me I will forward it to the Chief Judge of the Native Land Court and ask for an immediate answer, and I shall forward the answer to the Chairman of the Committee. There is one question that I asked

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yu to which I have had no answer, and that is the question of charges to tourists; but there is another question that I want to bring before you. I have been told that you have stopped tourists from sketching your springs and remarkable places, and that in some cases you have actually torn up the sketches. Now, lam perfectly certain that this action has not been done by any respectable member of your tribe, for these sketches are calculated to enhance the importance and value of your land and to bring visitors from foreign places "who have seen these sketches to see the places themselves. lam quite sure, therefore, that this has been done under some misapprehension, if it has not been done by some malicious and bad persons. I would like to hear your opinions on these questions. Maika Pa/wpopoki : The proposal to make charges for Europeans coming here was not the action of one person; it was decided by all the people that such should be done. The reason that the Natives imposed these charges was with the object of raising a revenue, seeing that under the Thermal Springs Act they are debarred from giving leases to Europeans and raising revenue in that way. This explanation also refers to the charge for making sketches. I cannot give you a reply at once that the charges will be reduced, because that matter must be referred to the Committee. If they can reduce them, they will send you information. We ask that you will give authority for the Committee appointed to look after this place, and that you will also grant them the assistance of the Government Agent. This is the only explanation we have to give. Mr. Ballance: I do not understand that you propose to charge tourists for sketching your wonderful places. I do not say that I object to a charge being made here. What I said was that the charge was prohibitive—that you injured yourselves: that it was so high that you are keeping visitors away from the places ; and I urge upon you that, in recognition of the fact that we are providing a bridge for you, you ought to meet us by reducing the charge; for by erecting the bridge we are giving greater facilities for tourists to come and visit your places. The present means of crossing of course prevents tourists from coming here, as there is some danger. Considering, therefore, that our action is likely to increase the number of tourists, we think that you ought to reduce the amount; and you must remember that, if the amount is only one-half, you are very likely to get double the number of tourists at least. Now, if you get double the number at half the amount, you get the same revenue and you get the wonders of your place circulated everywhere. You make your place popular, and draw tourists from all parts to it. Now, I trust that no charge will be made to sketchers in future ; I think it is an improper interference with their liberty; besides, it is injurious to yourselves. The owners of some of these wonderful places are exceedingly anxious to get photographers and others to come and sketch their places in order that they may become popular. What has drawn tourists from all parts of the world to visit Eotomahana but the sketches that have been made of it ? Why, you ought rather to pay people for making these sketches than to charge them. I have put this question fairly before you, and I will leave it to the Committee to hold a meeting and come to a decision as soon as possible. I will leave it for you to decide. Wiremu Pauro : We agree to your suggestion, and some of us quite indorse what you have said; but still it will have to be done through the Committee. Tamati Paora : With regard to our application for a school, hitherto we have sent our children to the Wairoa school or to the Ohinemutu school; but the distance is so great that they get weary and refuse to go at all. With regard to the reduction of the charges, the Committee must settle that matter. We hope that you will give legal effect to the regulations made by the Committee, because there are a great many troubles connected with this place, these troubles being the result of Europeans coming here. It is necessary that there should be proper regulations for the Europeans to come here to live and to bathe, &c. If you will agree to allow the Government Agent of the district and the Native Committee to frame regulations and give effect to them, then it will be well. Mr. Ballance: lam very glad that you have made a proposal about the Government Agent assisting the Committee. Although the Committee has been formed under no law, yet at the same time it is perfectly proper that you thould have a Committee to conduct your affairs; and I shall ask the Government Agent to give the Committee all the assistance in his power. With regard to a school, I think I may say that if you arrange for a site, and are prepared to hand over a site to the Government, and write a letter, that the Minister for Education will cause no delay in the erection of a school. I shall make a strong recommendation to him on the subject, and I have no doubt he will attend to it at once. Tamati Paora said that his proposal to Mr. Johnson was that they should pay one part and the Government one part of the cost of the bridge, so that they might contribute towards the expense to which the Government had been put. Mr. Ballance : Of course the Government have no objection to your contributing to the cost of the bridge. The Government undertook to erect the bridge at their own cost entirely, with the expectation that you would meet their views respecting the charges; but we will leave that matter with your Committee. Hori Taiaiuhio : With regard to the nineteen persons appointed by Tuhourangi for a Committee—those people were properly elected. Wi Eeejja Bangipuawhe: The nineteen persons who form the Tuhourangi Committee were elected by the six hundred owners of the Botomahana-Parekarangi Block, and the nineteen names were submitted to the Native Land Court. The Judge directed us to send this list to the Chief Judge. When the list was referred to the Chief Judge, he found that there were a hundred owners who had not given their consent to the appointment of these nineteen persons, and he replied that he could not give effect to our wish until the whole of the owners of the block had given their consent. When the Native Land Court opened at Maketu, Judge Mair sent a message to me asking me to come and get the list of the nineteen names, because the Chief Judge had not been able to accede to our wishes and give effect to it. We declined to take back the list, because the thoughts

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of the six hundred who agreed to that Committee were still the same, and only a minority did not give their consent. The nineteen people still have the confidence of the six hundred people ; but the consent of the remainder of the grantees has never been obtained. The hundred people who have not consented did not object to this Committee; but we have not been able to obtain their consent, because they are scattered all over the country. Hori Taiawhio : This Committee performs a great many works in the way of carrying out the work of the tribe —in keeping order, This Committee has heard a great many land disputes and other disputes; but they have no legal standing, and therefore we now ask that they may be recognized. Mr. Ballancc: I will say a final word about this Committee. I am glad to hear so good an account of it; I believe what you have said as to the desire of the Committee to act rightly in the interests of the people, and I believe it exists by their consent. It has been rightly said that it ha 3 no legal standing ; dug we can only give it a legal standing by force of law. A law must be passed before it has a legal standing; but in the meantime its position is not contrary to the law, and it is evidently doing much useful work, therefore, as I said, the Government Agent will be instructed to give it every assistance, and I trust that next session a law will be passed to give these Committees, who represent the owners of blocks of land, a legal position. I intend to have a Bill drawn up on the subject, and translated into the Native language; that Bill will be circulated amongst you before next session, and I shall be glad if you will give your opinions upon it, so that in future your Committees will have all the force of law, and have the strength of law for everything they do. Wi Eeepa Bangipuawhe: Some years ago Mr. Halse, who was then Under-Secretary for Native Affairs, asked us for our advice as to the best means of preserving the Terraces by keeping Europeans from writing their names, and the Government had a number of notices issued, and they were posted in the district, but the result was not satisfactory; people were not deterred from doing damage. When the land passed the Court, and this Committee of nineteen persons was elected, the Government again communicated with us on the subject of preserving the Terraces and other wonders ; the Committee formed regulations for the prevention of Europeans writing their names or breaking the Terraces or encrustations; and according to the regulations of this Committee, if an European is caught in the act of writing his name, or doing other damage, he will be called upon to pay at once. Some Europeans who have been detected in breaking the regulations and writing their names, &c, have, upon demand being made, paid; but other Europeans have refused to pay. These regulations have been printed and circulated by the Committee in English and Maori; but these notices have not the force of law, although we try to persuade the Europeans that they have. Only a day or two ago, a party of ladies went there under the guidance of Mrs. Graham, and no attention was paid to these regulations ; but the tourists carried away a great number of encrustations. This is the reason why we ask that the Committee may be authorized, so that they may be strong in preventing damage from being done. Mr. Ballance : I am very glad that you have brought this question of the Terraces to my notice, and I think that something ought to be done to prevent damage being done to the Terraces. The law is 'not nearly stringent enough, for I think that a payment for damage done to the Terraces is not sufficient ; my opinion is, that any person who wilfully damages the terraces ought to be liable to be criminally prosecuted and sent to jail. There are some rich savages who would not object to pay any amount of money for damage done to the Terraces ; but if they were liable to a month's imprisonment they would think over the matter two or three times. I think the law should be that any person who wilfully damages the Terraces should be liable to imprisonment. I have heard that the Maoris have been giving a great deal of attention to this matter, and have watched carefully that damage is not done ; but they cannot be everywhere, and damage will be done in spite of them. I am inclined to think that some person should be authorized to prosecute, and that a very severe punishment should be meted out to anyone who damages the Terraces. With regard to the party of ladies who went the other day and brought away encrustations, I would like to say one word. There are a great many people who think that it is no injury to the Terraces to put in some wood and have an encrustation formed upon it by the action of the water. I am inclined to think that that is no offence, because it does not injure the Terraces ; that is not what I referred to. I meant persons cutting out pieces of the Terraces, and the lesser offence of writing their names. Of course, the offence of writing their names is very small compared with the offence of cutting away a piece of the Terrace. Some people do not think that the writing of their names is any offence; for instance, the Duke of Edinburgh wrote his name when he was there, but some savage, in order to get the duke's autograph, cut it out. I think that for that offence six months in goal, with hard labour, would not be too much. Now, I will look carefully into this matter, and see whether the law cannot be amended so as to afford, ample protection to the Terraces ; and I shall ask your Committee to be kind enough to continue to assist us in future, and I would like to thank it for what it has done in the past. Wiari Ngatai then read an address, which was as follows : Friend, Mr. Ballance. Salutations to you. This is a request from Ngatiwhaoa, one of the hapus of Ngati Tuhourangi, who were ascertained to be the owners in a block called Patetere South. Their names were admitted in that block on account of their being descended from Kaea and Manawa. The Court decided that those were the ancestors from whom the block was claimed. This was in 1883. We ask that you will give effect to our request; that is, that you will afford us relief from the grievance under which we labour. First, we were the registered owners in the Patere South Block, the Court having awarded this block to Kaea and Manawa, in 1883; secondly, the unauthorized subdivision of this block which was made by some of the descendants of Kaea and Manawa —that is to say, the subdivision of seven thousand acres that was sold to the Government in 1884. We were not present in the Court when that subdivision was made. We were present in Court when the list of names was submitted and passed by the Court. That was in 1883; but these people who subdivided the land did not acquaint us of their intention to subdivide it subsequently, so that we knew nothing about the subdisvision of the seven thousand acres, or about the selling to

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the Government. This is why we ask you to consider this matter. We ask that you will give back to us fifteen hundred acres out of the seven thousand acres. That is all we have to say. Mr. Ballance : That is a matter which is new to me, and I shall have to make inquiry into it; but I fear that it is now too late to alter what has been done by the Court. Did you appeal against the decision of the Court ? Wiari Ngatai: No, we did not. We were not aware of the action of the Court. Mr. Ballance,: But the Court gives notice of its sittings and of its hearing these questions. If any person has interests and does not appear to defend them the responsibility rests upon himself. That is the case in all the European Courts, and it is so in the Native Land Court. However, I will inquire into it and let you have a reply, because I am not now familiar with the facts. Wiari Ngatai said that there was no notification in the Gazette that this seven thousand acres would be purchased by Government; but the Gazette contained a notice that the land would be heard by the Court. He was, however, satisfied with the Hon. Mr. Ballance's answer. Maiha te Aporo then read an address from the other hapus of Ngati Tuhourangi. The hapus of Ngati Tuhourangi greet you, the Native Minister; and they bring before you their various requests. The first is that you will be good enough to give them some fencing-wire. The reason we make this request is this: there is a great scarcity of food at Te Wairoa, and the result is that the parents have to go away a distance to procure food, and while they are away the children neglect to go to school. That is why we ask that you will give us some fencing-wire, in order that we may be able to cultivate food at Te Wairoa for the children. We also ask that the restrictions concerning arms and ammunition may be relaxed. I would explain that our livelihood depends to a certain extent upon our being able to procure birds. Often our woods are full of birds, and we are not able to procure them, having no guns or ammunition. Another request is that you will give us a flag for these three hapus. Mr. Ballance : With regard to the request for fencing-wire, we only give fencing-wire in the case where the Government has got a road and the Natives are desirous that it should be fenced, and then it is subject to the condition that they provide the posts and labour. It is only upon these conditions that fencing-wire is given. With regard to the restrictions upon ammunition, I give the same reply in this case as I gave before—that there will be no difficulty, upon application to Mr. Johnson on the part of any respectable Native, in purchasing sufficient ammunition and arms to produce him food. Now with respect to the flag : have not you got a flag already ? Maiha Aporo : Some hapus of Tuhourangi have flags, but we have none. Mr. Ballance : I will send you a flag. Maiha Aporo said that the fencing-wire asked for was for fencing a Government road. Mr. Ballance,: I thought it was for something different, but if you will send down a letter, I will do as I said before. Aporo Wharehaneho : The charge for the medical man coming from Ohinemutu to Te Wairoa is £2 2s. We ask that the Government will give us some conveyance for the purpose of taking our sick people to Ohinemutu as occasion requires. Mr. Ballance : With regard to the medical man, I will tell you what the Government is doing. It has built a hospital, and is about to furnish it, at Ohinemutu. In all cases of dangerous disease amongst the Natives there is no charge made in that hospital. You may send a person who is dangerously ill to the hospital and he will be treated without charge ; but it must be a serious case. As to the conveyance the Natives must see that the sick person is brought to the hospital. We think they should do that, considering that the Government has gone to great expense in providing treatment for people who are dangerously ill. Tamati Paora: As a rehearing cannot be allowed for the Pukeroa Block, we ask that you will give us a piece of land on the opposite side of the river where we may keep our buggies. When the present Governor visited Whakarewarewa we asked him for two flags, but we have not yet received them. The reason we asked for them was this: Whakarewarewa is becoming an important place, and we like to have a flag to hoist in honour of distinguished persons who come here. I have to make a personal request—that is, that I may be granted a salary. I was long ago appointed an Assessor without salary, but the appointment has not been a source of profit to me, and I would like to have a yearly salary. Mr. Ballance : The land here, as you are aware, belongs to the people of Ohinemutu; it does not belong to the Government; but I understand that you want a reserve or some place for your traps. I will see whether a reserve cannot be made for the purpose that you require. Now, with regard to the flag : I do not think that this giving flags should become too common, because then the flags would become of little value. I will see that a flag is sent to the Ngatiwahiao. With regard to the position of Assessor, we think that the honour of the position ought to be sufficient. Amongst the Europeans, when a Justice of the Peace is appointed, he is always appointed without salary, and people are very anxious for the position, and very proud of it when they get it. They are called the " Great Unpaid," and they are very proud of the title. Now, I think that the Maoris should be very proud of the title of Assessor, and that they should seek thus to be called the " Great Unpaid; " but the Assessor at the present time gets payment when he sits with the Resident Magistrate. He gets a guinea a day, and if he is in the Native Land Court he is also paid. I have been asked by many Natives to appoint them Assessors, and I have said that if they are people of rank in their tribe and looked up to by the people, I would have no objection; and they should consider it a great honour to have the trust and confidence of their own people. They are leading men, and are respected both by Europeans and by Natives. Mita Mahai asked that Eeweri, the Native policeman at Te Wairoa, might be dismissed, as he was very indolent and did not serve summonses, and he often goes away from Te Wairoa, and appoints somebody else to carry the mail to Ohinemutu instead of taking it himself. Mita also asked that something might be done for old Tumakohu te Wharepipi. Mr. Ballance : With regard to the policeman, you have brought a very serious charge. You

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have called him indolent, and if that is proved I think that the policeman ought to be changed, but I will have to refer the matter to Wi Kespa, who is the Assessor under whom the policeman is placed, and if the report from Wi Keepa is that the policeman is not performing his duty, we will have to change him. With regard to the chief that you have referred to, I will take that matter into consideration and make inquiry. You say he is very old ? The Natives said that he must be nearly a thousand years old. Mr. Ballance : A man of the age of Methuselah is entitled to some consideration. I will make inquiry into the matter ; but why do not the people support him ? I think the people should support the old man. There is one thing said about the Maoris that they do not sufficiently consider the old people, and I think that is a grave fault. It shows, however, that you have some regard for him when you brought the matter to my notice. Wi Keepa Bangipuawhe : I uphold what Makai has said with regard to the policeman. This policeman does not fulfil his duties or carry out his instructions. Pie is always engaged in other pursuits. I quite indorse the complaint that Mita has made. Karora, who belongs to Ngatirangitihi, and lives at Tarawera, said that he was deputed by his tribe to lay their grievances before the Minister. He read an address as follows : Friend, the Native Minister. Salutations to you. We are very glad on account of your coming amongst us. You have come to do away with the evil which gives us trouble. We ask that you will authorize the making of the Haihainga road—that is, extending from Eichmond on the sea coast up to Tapuaeharuru and the Tarawera Lake. That road is sometimes used by travellers. We ask that this matter may be considered. Secondly, we ask that you will make an arrangement to this effect: that the Tuhourangi boats conveying passengers start from Te Wairoa and proceed along the lake till they come to Moera, and then hand over the passengers to us for us to take them up to Eotomahana. We make this request because at present Tuhourangi have it all their own way ; we get nothing out of it. We only wish to have the carrying of the Europeans for a short distance. The small piece over which we wish to carry the Europeans has been awarded to Ngatirangitihi. Thirdly, we ask that a township may be made at Tapahahoro. Fourthly, we ask that a plough and cart and horses may be given to us, the Ngatirangitihi. Mr. Ballance : With regard to the road, that is a matter that I shall bring before the Minister for Public Works, if you will write me a letter on the subject. Now, as to the passengers, I would like to say this : that from what I have heard they are perfectly safe in the hands of the Tuhourangi people. Ido not want the tourists torn in pieces between the contending tribes. They complain now that the charges are too high, but what would it be if another tribe came in and imposed charges for themselves ? I thought you could not claim the water of the lake as well as the land ; but, if there is any difficulty there I recommend you to settle it with the Tuhourangi people. Discuss that matter amongst yourselves and come to a conclusion, but do not interfere with the tourists. Now, with .regard to the township, I do not know that I can give you an answer upon that point now, but I will make inquiries. I would like to ask this question : suppose a township is made, would any people live in it ? Wi Keepa Bangipuawhe : Not a cabbage could grow there. Mr. Ballance : Then, how are people to live, and what is the use of a township without people ? With regard to the plough and cart and horses, I would like to say this : that this Government has thought it better for the Maoris themselves that they should not receive gifts and presents. It would be much better for yourselves that you should be independent in these respects. The people that are always asking for alms and gifts are generally a degraded people. You will all be a very rich people if your lands are properly administered. That is the object on which the attention of the Maoris should be fixed, to save their lands for themselves, and have the rents coming in from them, or, where they sell their lands, to have a portion put in the bank, so that, when the occasion requires, they may be able to provide themselves with money. At present when they sell land they generally spend the money next day, and then they offer another block for sale, and, of course, when all the land is sold they will be paupers ; that is a position I do not desire to see, and I am prepared to assist the Maoris to administer their own lands for their own benefit, and to save them from the destructive operations of the land grabber. My desire is to see the people thoroughly independent, and not to be dependent upon alms or doles from any one. Karoro : The reason I want the arm of the lake fenced off is that that part of the lake belongs to Ngatirangitihi. Mr. Ballance said that there must be no toll-gates on the water. The Government have abolished all toll-gates on land, and they will not allow them on the water. Tamati Poor a said that the Native Committee would have charge of this. He wished to reply to the Minister's speech about the charges. The Committee have had a meeting and agreed to the charge suggested by Mr. Ballance, and they ask that the Government alone will bear the cost of making the bridge. They hope that the Government will assist them in carrying out their work. The question of charges for people making sketches was not quite settled. Mr. Ballance : I am very pleased to hear of the decision at which the Committee has arrived, and I return, on behalf of this community, my sincere thanks. I think that they have arrived at a very wise conclusion, and my firm belief is that they will get as much revenue as they got before. The Government will bear the whole cost of the bridge, and push it on as rapidly as possible to completion. With regard to the sketches, I sincerely hope that you will not make any charge for that. I shall ask you to confer this favour upon me and abolish all charges for making sketches. The Government Agent will be instructed to assist the Committee, as I have said before, in every possible way. Tamati Paora said that they would make no charges, provided they (the Maoris) appeared in the sketches.

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Notes of a Meeting between the Hon. Mr. Ballance and Tauranga Natives, at Whareroa, Tauranga, on the 21st February, 1885. Pikea said : Welcome to Tauranga. Come to Tauranga to see the tribes of Tauranga; come to bring us good tidings. Come and stay with us a long time, so that we may hear your words. Hohepa Hihutaia .• Welcome to Tauranga, to see our tribe —the Ngaiterangi. My first request to you is that you will not return to-day, but that you will stay with us a long time. We wish you to stay with us to-day and to-morrow and the next day. This is the united wish of the Ngaiterangi tribe : that you will stay a long time with them. We want you to stay with us a longer time than other Ministers stayed when they came to see us. The hearts of the people are rejoiced at your coming to see them. We hope you will not weary of listening to the words which Ngaiterangi may wish to speak, nor of the subjects they wish to lay before you. Do not stay with us just a short while and make a flying visit; stay with us a long while. Do not be in a hurry to return. Come to see your canoe and the Ngaiterangi people. Ngaiterangi have always borne a good name, and we hope that you will continue to think well of them. I again reiterate the request of the people that you will spend a long time with them. If you only stay a few minutes, just like stepping from one'place to another, then your love for Ngaiterangi is not strong, but you will be making light of Ngaiterangi if you do not accede to their request. Hori Ngatai : Do not think that, because only a small number of Ngaiterangi have come here to welcome you, it is a mark of disrespect. There is an ancestral boast of ours that, although but one man of Ngaiterangi is seen, he is capable of doing great work. Welcome, friend, welcome. Come to bring us your words, and to tell us what you think best. The days of love between the Europeans and Maoris ceased when Sir Donald McLean died, down to the time when Mr. Bryce became Native Minister; and since then Ido not know that any love has been shown to the Maori people, or that they are living in a state of prosperity. Ido not believe in the statement which is so often made, that the Maoris and the Europeans are living together as one people. I do not believe there is any truth in it; but, now that you have come to see us, it may be that that saying will come true, and that you will show us the love that Sir Donald McLean used to show us. [A song of welcome was sung.] Welcome to see us, because there are many troubles resting upon us which Mr. Bryce never removed. We are not living in a state of prosperity. Tareha : Come to see all your tribes. Come and treat us the way we were treated by Sir Donald McLean; he brought us love, and treated us properly. Let your protection of the Maori people be like his was. Ido not think that Mr. Bryce should have been called a Native Minister; he was only a Minister for the Europeans—he did nothing for the Natives. If you treat us like Sir Donald McLean treated us, then you will indeed be a father to us. Salutations to you, if you have any kindly feeling for the Maoris in your heart. Let there be one law for both races, and show us the same love that is extended to the Europeans. Wiremu Parera : Come to see the Native people. You have been to see all the other tribes; it is but right that you should come and see us. Welcome to Tauranga. Tauranga is the land ; Ngaiterangi the name of the people. Ngaiterangi were a great tribe in times past : their fame spread through the land ; but trouble came upon them, and you see how few there are at present. In the days of Sir George Grey peace was made with this tribe, and it has never been broken since. That peace still remains in force, and it has spread over all the land. We greet you,. the new Native Minister; we greet you in memory of Sir Donald McLean. The love to the Natives ceased when Sir Donald McLean died, but now the Ngaiterangi think that perhaps you may renew it. This is not a new saying: that the Maoris and Europeans should be as one people ; that is an old word. I have always held to that word, and treasured it up in my heart. But lam not sure that such is the case. I think that we are not yet living together as one people, for when the Europeans are in the house we stand outside the door, and, instead of being invited to enter, we are told to go away. When the Europeans call to us and tell us to come into the house and sit down with us, and live with us under one roof, as it were, then I will know for the first time that we are really living as one people. Come and see us and remove the troubles that rest upon us. Ngaiterangi have many subjects to bring before you for your consideration. [Song.] Te Puru Temea: Welcome to Tauranga. Come and see the Ngaiterangi people and bring them your love. We are very pleased at your coming to see us. Other Ministers have passed through Tauranga without turning on one side to meet us. Come to visit us and the Europeans also, and to bring us the good tidings. Come to make us live together as one people. Of course we, the Maoris, think that the Maoris show greater affection to the Europeans than the Europeans to the Maoris. Bring us the right; come to teach, the Maori people what they should do. Do not treat us as we have been treated by other Ministers. Welcome to Ngaiterangi, for since the peace was made Ngaiterangi have been living in peace and goodwill towards the Europeans. Since that peace was made Ngaiterangi have never done anything wrong to the Europeans. When Sir George Grey was Governor he showed great love to the -Ngaiterangi people. When the present Governor was here we were very much pleased with what he said, when he came to see us at this place. Ngaiterangi supported what he said on that occasion. Te Ranahia Kahuhoti : Salutations to you, the Native Minister. Come to see the Native people ; come to greet them. It is only right that you should come to see them. Come to give them help and to lead them in the right path. I uphold what the chiefs have said with regard to the love for the Maori people having ceased when Sir Donald McLean died. It has never been extended to us since. When Mr. Bryce was Native Minister he gave us no sign that he had kindly feelings towards the Maori people, but your fame and your good name has come to us : we have heard that you treat the Maoris kindly ; the fame of your kindness and your love has preceded you. I will now mention the various matters which Ngaiterangi wish to bring tinder your consideration. [Eanahia then read a copy of the letter from the Native Office to Wi Katene on the subject of the Ngapuhi deputation to England, and went on to say :] The Natives think that the advice contained in this document is

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good. Ngaiterangi, so far, have confined their speeches to greeting you. They have not yet brought forward the subjects which they wish to have discussed. I repeat what the other speakers have said with regard to your spending a long time amongst us. Mr. Ballance : Friends of Tauranga, of the great Ngaiterangi Tribe, I thank you very cordially for your welcome. I have heard your words, and lam very glad to think that the people of the Ngaiterangi Tribe are glad to see me. You have referred to Sir Donald McLean, who was a great Native Minister, who went amongst the people and won their affection. I think that Sir Donald McLean did his duty in that respect, but, from my personal knowledge of him, it is true that he bore great love to the Maori people. I was in Parliament with him for two years, and watched his great anxiety to serve the. best interests of the race. Sir Donald McLean died, but he left behind him people equally desirous of promoting your welfare. I think it is a good practice for the Native Minister, who ought to be the friend and guardian of the Native people, to pay frequent visits to them at their various settlements, as much as time will permit; but there are many hapus in New Zealand, and I am afraid that, if I have to see you all, I cannot devote much time to each. It has been said by one speaker that my love will not be great for the people if my time is short amongst them. I cannot agree to that sentiment, for I have many engagements, many appointments, to other tribes, which I must keep. I shall therefore ask you not to measure my regard for you by the short time I have to spend amongst you. I shall be compelled to leave to-night in order to attend a great meeting at Gisborne on the 24th of this month; that appointment was made many months ago, and the people have assembled there from various parts, and the engagement must be kept ; but I trust that this is not my last visit to the people of Ngaiterangi, and therefore, if my time is short on the present occasion, I hope that I shall have an opportunity of seeing you before very long. So long as I remain Native Minister I shall consider it my duty to understand and hear what the people have to say, in order that I may know their wants, and be able to meet them and redress their grievances. You have referred to my good name which has come amongst you ; that is to my mind a very flattering statement. I will tell you on what I think that good name rests. It is my earnest desire to treat the Natives as a people who are entitled, to kindness, to justice, and to consideration. We are all fellow-citizens under the law, and my efforts are being directed to bring the two races together, on the ground of equal justice and protection to the Native people. I will not remain Native Minister and allow you to be wronged in any respect without standing up in your defence. It is my duty to protect you in the possession of your lands, and to see that they are not wrested from you by unworthy dealings, but that, when you part with your lands, it shall be after due deliberation and in the light of day. My desire, and also the desire of the.'Government, is to see that the Native people are educated. It is only by the education of the young that you can ever hope to take the same position as Europeans. We are therefore establishing Native schools throughout the country, and we hope that the older people will support these schools and see that they are properly attended. It is our desire to extend to you larger powers of local government, so that you may be able to protect yourselves to a large extent, that is to say, to have the right through your Committees to do certain things through the law 'of the Colony. It has been said that you are not living in a state of prosperity; but there is no' reason, with your large landed possessions, why you might not in the future attain to a position of great prosperity and happiness. That prosperity will largely depend upon yourselves, and it will be the earnest desire of the Government to assist you in attaining it. One of the speakers has read a letter which appeared in the Gazette, addressed to the people of Ngapuhi. I wrote that letter in order to remove a false impression which is obtaining in the King country and among certain sections of the Ngapuhi Tribe. Some foolish people thought tliat they could, by going to England, obtain certain powers from the English Parliament. I told them, what all intelligent people know, that the British Parliament cannot interfere in the affairs of this colony. We have a Parliament of our own, and- that Parliament is independent within the shores of this colony. The power of the Queen is here just the same as it is at Home, and her representative is the Governor. The laws of the colony therefore are supreme, and all grievances must be redressed under them. It may be that some of the laws are not perfect, and do not work well for the Native people ; but I believe, if the grievances under which they rest are only made known to Parliament, that it is sufficiently strong to pass just laws. I shall be prepared next session to submit to Parliament measures which- affect the welfare of the Native people, and to remove some of the grievances under which the Natives are now resting. I therefore hope that you will bring your grievances before me to-day, so that we may be able to discuss them. It is by discussion and by petition that those grievances will be made known and remedied; and I am prepared to give a respectful hearing to any grievances which you may have to urge. I again thank you for the very cordial welcome which you have given me, and I will now ask you to proceed to the matters which you have to bring before me. Te Mete Bauhawa: I will now mention the subjects which affect Ngaiterangi very deeply. The first matter to which I will allude is the Eating Act. The second subject is the restrictions which the Government have placed upon the land between Ngakuriawhare and Wairakei, that is to say, the Native lands. Third, about the Crown grants to lands which have passed the Court or been awarded to the Natives. Fourth, with regard to the Queen's authority extending below highwater mark. Fifth, with regard to the issuing of arms and ammunition to the Natives. Sixth, Ngaiterangi wish that they should have a District Committee of their own—to have a separate district. Seventh, with regard to the Thermal Springs Act: that has been brought from forty miles inland—from Eotorua —and made to extend over our lands. Eighth, with regard to Road Boards. Ninth, we ask that the Government will be pleased to call a member of the Ngaiterangi Tribe to the Upper House, seeing that the choice of calling a person to the Upper House rests with the Government, so that there may be three Native members in the Legislative Council. The Government are always passing laws affecting the Native lands. In the opinion of the Ngaiterangi people the

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Eating Act is a very unjust Act, because the Natives, being an impoverished people, are not able to pay either the rates on the land, or the property-tax. We ask that these laws may be repealed so far as they affect Native lands. If the Government will not repeal these Acts, then we will continue to think that they are not desirous of affording us any relief. With regard to the restrictions placed by the Government on the Tauranga lands, when Ngaiterangi made peace with the Government many years ago they gave over the whole of their lands to be placed under the law ; but it; was understood and it was mentioned at the time by the various Ngaiterangi chiefs that they were to retain the disposal of the land in their own hands. •It was then settled that fifty thousand acres should be confiscated on account of the tribe having joined in the rebellion; and the Ngaiterangi Tribe now ask that all restrictions shall be removed from the balance of the land which remains to them. Ngaiterangi are under the impression that lands are passed through the Court for the sake of ascertaining who are the owners, and, when that has been done, Crown grants or certificates should be issued to the people who are found to have an interest. Ngaiterangi are at a loss to understand why there should be such a delay in the issue of the grants ; if it is on account of the fees due, or the survey liens, there might be something in it—there might be a valid reason for the delay. Some people here have made application to the Civil Commissioner, and offered to pay any survey charges that may be due on the land. There are some cases in which the Government have said that no survey charges will be made ; but there are some cases where the survey has already been paid for, and neither certificate nor Crown grant has been issued to the owners. Mr. Brabant is acquainted with the names of those lands, but I can mention two—Tauwharawhara and Paengaroa. The fifth subject is with regard to the issue of arms and ammunition. The restrictions regulating the supply are very strict, and Ngaiterangi are not able to obtain arms and ammunition. We do not wish that this privilege of obtaining licenses may be restricted to the chiefs only; we wish that any person may be allowed to get them if he wishes. Ngaiterangi think they are entitled to this consideration, because since the time of their peace-making they have never done anything wrong to the Europeans. The fighting that took place between the Europeans and the Ngaiterangi arose from a very great cause, which could not be controlled; but even that fighting was carried on in a straightforward and manly spirit. During that fighting Ngaiterangi committed no murders, and when the fighting was over and peace was made Ngaiterangi firmly held to that peace and did not break it. The whole of the people of Ngaiterangi have heard that in other districts the restrictions are not so strict with regard to the issue of licenses for arms and ammunition; that is why Ngaiterangi now request that the regulations may be relaxed. We do not know whether the stringent regulations are the act of the Government officers, or whether they are carrying out the wishes of the Government. The Native District Committee extends from Katikati and Te Awa-o-te-Atua inland to the south end of Taupo Lake. It comprises a very large district, and Ngaiterangi think it is much too extended. Ngaiterangi are very urgent that they may have a separate Committee of their own. There are some blocks of land which have already passed through the Court and been awarded to Ngaiterangi, yet they have been brought under the action of the Thermal Springs Act. Taumata Nos. 3 and 4, and Oropi, are the names of some of the blocks. This land is bounded by the road that goes through the bush to Eotorua, and is situated on this side of the Mangorewa Gorge. Ngaiterangi are very strenuous in asking that this Act may be confined to the lands owned by Ngatiwhakaue and other tribes that have hot springs upon their land. There are no hot springs near this land, and it is quite unreasonable that they should be brought under that Act. If White Island were a little nearer there might be some excuse for it. The Ngaiterangi think that these matters are unjust to the Native people. Ngaiterangi ask that the Government will call one of their tribe to the Upper House, so that this person may be able to assist Ngaiterangi in getting relief from Parliament for any grievances from which they are suffering. The Ngaiterangi think that this request is a reasonable one to make, and will have no difficulty, so far as they are concerned, in selecting a person to recommend. These are all the subjects about which I have to make an explanation, but'Ngatai will speak with regard to the two other matters. Ilori Ngatai : Because it has been left for me to explain these two subjects, it is not that they affect me more deeply than they affect the whole of Ngaiterangi. With regard to the rates, this matter has pressed very heavily upon me. I will speak of the case of a block of land which the Government gave to me. This land is situated near a very ancient Maori track. When the confiscated lands were dealt with, the vaarious Ngaiterangi hapus had portions of the land adjoining awarded to them. The Council appointed a Eoad Board for the district in which this land is situated, and I have been put to great loss through the action of the Eoad Board. I was summoned by the Eoad Board to pay rates, because they thought that I was the right person to pay them. I was summoned for £16. I appeared in Court, and lost the case, and was ordered to pay £8. Another demand was afterwards made upon me, and I paid £9. Ido not know why the Eoad Board or the Government should have a' grudge against me, because they made no demand upon other owners of land adjacent, but only upon me. I was told that, if I did not pay, the Council would take the land, or that they would put me in gaol. I think I have been treated in an exceptional manner ; other people owning adjoining lands have not been treated in this way. I have been made an example of and harshly treated. It is my wish, and the wish of the whole of the Ngaiterangi, that this rating should be done away with. If I am to be treated in this way in future, I ask that I may be killed outright, and not killed by degrees ; for I may as well say at once that I have no money to go on continually paying these charges. lam in fear and trembling because I am afraid that some very stringent measures will shortly be taken against me with regard, to rates. I ask you how lam to obtain relief from the action of the Eoad Board. Mr. Ballance : Do you object to pay rates the same as Europeans who hold land in the same way? Hori Ngatai : Ido object; the reason I object is this: that lam the only one who is called upon to pay rates: none of the others are called upon to pay. Maoris own land all round the road,

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but lam the only one called upon to pay rates. I live at Tauranga, but part of my land is situated near that road. That is all I have to say on that subject. I will now speak with regard to the coast-line—that is, with regard to the high-water mark. Now, with regard to the land below high-water mark immediately in front of where I live, I consider that that is part and parcel of my own land. This land formerly belonged to a tribe called Ngatimarama, but we came from the East Coast and took it by conquest. I will look upon the land below high-water mark as being part of my own garden. From time immemorial I have had this land, and had authority over all the food in the sea. Te Maere was a fishing-ground of mine. Onake, that is a place from which I have from time immemorial obtained pipis. Te Eona is another pipi-bed. Te Karaka is another place. lam now. speaking of the fishing-grounds inside the Tauranga Harbour. My mana over these places has never been taken away. I have always held authority over these fishing-places and preserved them ; and no tribe is allowed to come here and fish without my consent being given. But now, in consequence of the word of the Europeans that all the land below high-water mark belongs to the Queen, people have trampled upon our ancient Maori customs and are constantly coming here whenever they like to fish. I ask that our Maori custom shall not be set aside in this manner, and that our authority over these fishing-grounds may be upheld. The whole of this inland sea has been subdivided by our ancestors, and each portion belongs to a proper owner, and the whole of the rights within the Tauranga Harbour have been apportioned among our own different people; and so with regard to the fishing-grounds outside the heads : those are only small spots. lam speaking of the fishing-grounds where hapuku and tarakihi are caught. Those grounds have been handed down to us by our ancestors. This Maori custom of ours is well established, and none of the inland tribes would dare to go and fish on those places without obtaining the consent of the owners. I am not making this complaint out of any selfish desire to keep all the fishing-grounds for myself; lam only striving to regain the authority which I inherited from my ancestors. I ask that the Queen's sovereignty shall not extend to those fishing-grounds of ours, but remain out in the deep water away beyond Tuhua. These are all the subjects upon which we wish to hear your opinion. We have now laid them before you. In our opinion they affect the Natives very deeply. I dare say some Natives have private matters to bring before you, but these matters which have been spoken about affect the whole of the people. Knowing that they affect the whole of the Maori people, we take this opportunity of bringing them before you. If I had seen that any of these matters were improper, I would have told the people not to mention them ; but I think that they are all legitimate matters for discussion, particularly with regard to the issue of licenses for arms and ammunition. I know that Natives in other districts can obtain them more easily than we can. Why should Ngaiterangi be debarred from obtaining these privileges, seeing that all the other Natives get them? Ngaiterangi are not a disloyal tribe that they should be treated in this way. Ngaiterangi will not buy arms and ammunition in great quantities, but only when they want to obtain birds. The only guns that we have now in our possession are guns that we have obtained in the fighting at Motiti against Ngapuhi in 1830. The only more modern gun that I have is one that Sir George Grey gave me. Mr. Ballanca : I agree that the subjects which you have brought before me are proper subjects for discussion, and I admit that you have put them before me in a very fair way, and have shown great skill in the manner in which you have discussed them. I cannot agree, however, with your reasons in many cases, and will give my reasons where I differ from you. Now, I shall take the subjects in the order in which you have presented them. First of all, with reference to rating, Ngatai says that he has been treated in an exceptional manner; if he has, that undoubtedly is wrong: but I am not sure that he has been so treated. The County Council and Boad Board have no power under the law to make exceptional treatment of any one. Ngatai says that some have not been rated, while he has been rated. Now, the reason, I think, is, that Ngatai holds the land in his own name, while those who have not been rated, that is to say, other Maoris who have not been rated, do not hold the land in their own names. But you ask that Europeans and Natives shall'be treated alike, under the same law. Now, I agree to that, but will you say that any Europeans have not been rated in the same way as Ngatai? Why are rates paid at all ? To make and keep in repair the roads. How can roads be kept in repair if rates are not paid by the owners of land ? The road is for the benefit of owners of land, to get their produce to market, and without the roads they cannot go to market. If, therefore, Ngatai holds land in his own right, in the same way as Europeans hold land, I think it is only fair and just that he should pay rates as Europeans do. But he says that other Maoris do not pay rates. Well, that is for their benefit, I suppose; but let Ngatai compare himself with the Europeans and see whether he is unfairly treated. If the Eoad Board treat him in an exceptional manner compared with the Europeans, then the action of the Eoad Board is wrong. But if the Eoad Board treat him the same as it does Europeans, then I think the action of the Eoad Board is right. Now, if Ngatai can show me better reasons, I will submit; but I think that my reasons are stronger than his. He will have an opportunity of discussing the question after I have answered the others. Now, I come to the question of the restrictions on land. Te Mete asks that those restrictions should be lifted. Well, I think that the owners of land ought to have the power, of dealing with their own land ; but these restrictions have been put on to give them greater power to deal with their own land. Most of the evils with regard to the land and to the Natives have arisen from the practice of a Native who owns a share of land selling it to a European: the Waitara war was caused in that way; but we wish to prevent that practice, and these restrictions are only kept on until the Maoris have power to deal with their own land. I propose next session to bring in a Bill to give the owners of a block of land power to elect a Committee, and this Committee shall have power to either sell or lease the land of the people who own it. In the meantime the restrictions will be kept on, to prevent, as I say, one or two persons selling the interests of others as well as their own; and I think, therefore, you will agree that these restrictions in the meantime are right. The third subject is with regard to Crown

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grants; you complain of delay. I shall inquire into this matter and see that the Crown grants are issued at once without further delay; there is no reason that I can see why there should have been delay. The fourth subject refers to the Queen's authority between high- and low-water mark. This is a question of law, and depends upon the construction that is placed on the Treaty of Waitangi. It is an important question, and I shall submit it to the Law Officers of the Crown upon my return to Wellington. If those rights were ceded by the Treaty, they are in the Queen; if they were not distinctly withheld they are also in the Queen, for the Queen in all her dominions owns the land between high- and low-water mark. It is not the wish of the Government to restrict or to curtail Maori customs, unless the Natives wish it themselves ; and therefore I shall make careful inqury into the subject. The fifth subject is in reference to arms and ammunition, and you complain that the Ngaiteraugi Tribe have been treated in an exceptional manner. I think there is some mistake here. The Ngaiterangi Tribe have not been treated by the Government in an exceptional manner. . The good faith and honour of this tribe have been fully recognized. Since the peace was made between them and the Government it has never been broken or disturbed. Those who are familiar with the history of the colony will never forget the generous conduct of the tribe at the Gate Pa. Contrary to the custom of some tribes, they took care of the wounded, fighting bravely, and in the light of day. I shall therefore see that, with regard to arms and ammunition, they will not suffer exceptional treatment, and they will have as many arms and as much ammunition as they require for their use. They will be treated as a loyal tribe ought to be treated, and, by applying to the Resident Magistrate to purchase these articles, they will receive the permission, and be able to purchase them where they please. There is only one reservation that I shall make, and it is this : that if there is any bad. character the permission will not be given in that case. For I suppose you will all admit that there are a few bad characters amongst the Maoris as amongst the Europeans ; I am glad to believe, however, that they are very few. Now, the sixth subject has reference to a separate'district in which a Committee shall exercise its authority. lam afraid, however, that this district will be too small. Are there any other tribes that would join with you in having a separate Committee ? Te Mete Baukawa: If the Native Minister will be pleased to extend our boundaries so as to take in Te Aroha or so as to take in Whakatane, those people would like to join us. This district would also include Tuhua Island. The Ngatiwhakaue boundary extends nearly as far as the Bast Cape, and we should like the whole of these tribes brought into one district. Hori Ngatai : I am very strenuous that the Tauranga people should have a separate Committee for themselves ; although you may think it is a small district, it is not so. This district is so large that it includes the Arawa country, and the Arawa think that they are to have the direction of affairs. Mr. Ballance : I was well aware that the people present did not represent the full strength of the tribe, and I should like to give to the tribe a separate district ; but I want to see the District Committee strong and powerful. Ido not want weak districts or weak Committees. Now, Te Mete is a member of the present Committee : I would like to ask him what their opinion is on this subject ? Te Mete Raukawa : The Arawa, being a distinct tribe, wish to obtain that Committee for themselves only ; they look upon me as an outsider, but I being selected by the Ngaiterangi became a member. It is my wish to give up my appointment on that Committee, and that we should have a Committee for our own district; but, if you do not see your way to it, I shall have to continue to be a member of the Eotorua Committee. Mr. Ballcknce : My desire is to do it, but I wanted to know the opinions of the people on the subject. I suppose the Arawas themselves would be agreeable. Is that so? Ilori Ngatai : I do not think that it matters much what they think, because it would not do them an injustice in dividing the district. I think that we ought to be considered. Mr. Ballance : That is a very good answer, and I think so, too. Te Mete Baukaiva : It may be that the Arawa will not consent to the district being broken, because they want to obtain a control over the whole district. It should be considered that the Arawa and Ngaiterangi are two distinct tribes, with conflicting interests. As the election took place at Ohinemutu, the Ngatiwhakaue were able to obtain a majority. We do not have a sufficient voice in the matter. Ido not think that the Arawa should be consulted. Mr. Ballance : It is quite clear that the Ngaiterangi have not a sufficient voice in the Committee. Ngaiterangi number a thousand people, I am told, and out of twelve members they have only one. According to population, they would be entitled to have three or four ; and, as it is your wish to have a separate Committee, I shall see if that can be done. I will ask the people of Ngaiterangi to send me a petition upon the subject. That petition should contain the names of the other tribes that wish to join you, and the boundaries of the district should be defined, and then we shall be prepared to decide the question. Now I come to the next question, number seven, about the Thermal Springs Act. What do you wish to do with your lands which are under the Thermal Springs Act ? How does the Thermal Districts Act injure you ? If you wish to lease your lands, you have the power to do so. You have the right to hand over your lands to the Government to lease for your benefit. Several hapus have already decided to hand over their lands to the Government. The Ngatiwhakaue are now receiving large rents from lands which were so handed over, and you may do the same thing. If you wish to sell your lands to any one who comes to buy, the Act does not permit of it. But we think that the land in that part of the country should not be sold; we think it should be managed for the benefit of the Native owners, so that Europeans shall come freely into the district and look about; and we know that that is for the benefit of the Natives themselves, for had it not been for the Act most of the land would have been sold to Europeans, and have gone from the Natives for ever. I think, therefore, that it is not for your benefit that the Act should be lifted. lam told that the Act does not take in the whole of the Tauranga District, and I think,

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therefore, that you should be content to have your lands disposed of in accordance with the Act. Now, with regard to a member for the Upper House. Tho Maoris altogether, in proportion to population, are entitled to two or three members and no more in that House. Ido not think that it is of any consequence to the Maoris that there should be more members in that House. Supposing we gave a member to the Ngaiterangi tribe, and this tribe numbers a thousand people, how many Maoris would be entitled to be members in the Legislative Council ? Why, that would mean forty members. The house itself would not hold more than one-tenth of the number; there would be no seats for them, and they would be standing in the streets. Besides, we do not think that it is of much consequence to have Maori members in the Council. The Governments are made and unmade in the other House. That is where the power is, and that is where you should seek to have the power, and never mind what the Upper House does. Now, I hope that you will abandon the idea of asking for another member in the Council, for the two reasons I have given you. The Natives agreed to what had been said by the Native Minister. Mr. Ballance: You ask that the survey charges may be reduced. At present you are not charged for surveys where you keep your lands and occupy them yourselves ; but, where you wish to sell your land or to lease it, then the survey charges are made, and the Government charge no more than they pay themselves, and I think that is fair. Now I would like to speak to you on another subject, namely,-the question of succession orders. It has been represented to me that sometimes the cost of these succession orders is more than the whole value of the land, and I think that that is very unjust. I propose, therefore, to reduce it, and to make a uniform charge of something like ss. for each succession order. Now you. pay £1, and other charges bring it up to about £1 145., and I propose to reduce them accordingly, so as to have one charge all round. I have now dealt with all the subjects that you have brought before me, and I have given you my reasons openly upon those points where we cannot agree. That is one of the great advantages of our meeting together, so that, if my reasons are stronger than yours, you will submit, and that things may go on smoothly in future. Mori Ngatai : I quite understand the meaning of your reply with regard to highway rates. I quite approve of paying rates. I have already told Mr. Brabant that Ido not object to pay highway rates, but the reason my heart was dark is this : the charges made upon me by the Council are so exorbitant; another reason why my heart was dark is this : I was the only one called upon to pay. I admit that the reason I was called upon to pay was because my name alone appeared in the Crown grant. I quite agree with the principle of paying rates. As you promised to make a reduction in succession orders, to reduce them to 55., I think it would be a very excellent thing if you could reduce the highway rates to 55., too. All the Government works that I embarked in result in my having to pay something heavy; for instance, at a Native Land Court which was held here some time ago I only stood up for one minute, and yet I had to pay £8 Court fees.. I cannot understand how this occurs. The people's names were all placed in a certificate of title by Mr. Brabant, but now the granting of succession orders when people die is handed over to the Native Land Court. I think that the power to appoint successors should be left with Mr. Brabant. The Native Land Court brings trouble upon the people from the heavy charges, and I ask that Mr. Brabant may be authorized to make the succession orders. Ido not see any need for the Native Land Court coming here at all. We think that the Government send Native Land Courts here for the sake of collecting fees, and we think that they are treating us very badly. Piahana : I will speak with regard to the road rates. I own a back section, with a European between the road and myself; I have no access to the road. Beyond me, again, is the land belonging to another hapu, lying between me and the beach. I have been summoned by the Eoad Board for rates for that piece of land. There are three of us on the Crown grant for the land. I have been treated the same way as Ngatai. I ask that the rates may be reduced. I was ordered to pay £8, and a demand is being made on me for payment every year, and I hope to obtain relief. Mr. Ballance : I am glad that Ngatai and I have agreed so far that he is in favour of the principle of rates being imposed. Now we have advanced towards each other ; we are all agreed that the roads must be maintained by rates, and the only question remaining is the amount. If you are charged too much, you have the right of appeal; if you are treated differently from the Europeans, you can appeal to Mr. Brabant, who will see that the law is the same in both cases. If your land is valued too highly, then the amount will be reduced upon your appealing; but lam told that you are sued, not for the rates for the year, but for arrears for several years back. Since then the law has been altered, and now you can only be sued for two years' arrears of rates, so that some of the grievances which you brought before me should never occur again. Ngatai thinks that the rates should be reduced to 55., the same as the succession orders. What the Eoad Board does is this :it finds out how much money will be required to keep the roads in repair; it values the whole of the land in the district, and then puts on sufficient rates to make up the amount required for the roads—it may be three farthings or it may be a penny in the pound—and all are treated then with equality. If a man has much land he will pay a big rate, but he cannot complain of that; and, if he has little land, he will only pay a small rate, and he will not complain of that, so that the more rates the land pays the better he is off. I should like to be a large landowner, even if I had to pay large rates. I agree with Ngatai that many of the fees charged in the Land Court are much too high. I think Mr. Brabant should be allowed to grant succession orders. I shall take steps to have the law so altered that he will have that power. I can assure you that the Government have not sent the Land Court here to get large fees. It is the law that requires it to be done, and not the Government: the Government are only carrying out the law; but I quite agree with you, and I would like to see Mr. Brabant doing the whole of the duties of the district. All these questions I shall inquire into, and see what can be done as to affording relief to the Maori people. Hori Ngatai: We heartily approve of what you have stated. I hope that the alteration with regard to Mr. Brabant making succession orders will take place speedily, because on the 10th

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of next month a Native Land Court will be held here, and I shall then be called upon to pay £10 for Court fees. I hope that it will be unnecessary for Mr. Clarke to come here to hold the Native Land Court. It can be done away with; Mr. Brabant can make the succession orders just as well, and my £10 will be saved. If the alteration in the law cannot be made in time, when the Land Court opens here on the 4th of March next we shall withdraw all our cases. Mr. Ballance : The Native Land Court has got certain powers by law which are not possessed by the Commissioner; that is the reason that the Native Land Court is required to sit. With regard to the fees—that is to say, for the succession orders—l shall take steps immediately on my return to Wellington by the Ist of next month. I shall do what I possibly can, so far as the law allows me, to reduce these fees. Te Puru spoke about a piece of land surveyed and given to a European, and complained that the European was now fencing land which was never sold, to him. The land was sold according to the survey boundary, but the European was fencing a great deal more than was sold. It was a case where the European was taking in the beach. Holiepa Hikutaia said that in October, 1883, a block of land called Hungahungatorua was brought before the Compensation Court. Mr. Clarke heard the case in 1870, and awarded the land to him. No one objected to the survey. He had been asking for two years past for a rehearing, as the Court awarded his house and the cultivations on the land to other people. Mr. Clarke awarded Penetaka one part of the land in 1870 and him (Hikutaia) the other part, but by the late decision (Hohepa complained) he was deprived of his houses and cultivations, and therefore asked for a rehearing. He would not give in the list of names, because he was dissatisfied. He applied in last October for a rehearing. Hone Makarauri said that the subject he was going to speak about was one of general interest. It was with regard to the proposal to build a railway-line from Tauranga to Eotorua. They did not object to the railway being made, but they were informed that, when the railway was made, five chains on each side of the track would be taken without payment. Hone said that he did not know if such was the case, but they had been so informed by the Europeans in Tauranga. If this were so, if the railway ran through the land of a man who owned fifty acres, the whole of his fifty acres would be absorbed. He did not think that more land should be taken than was absolutely required for the track of the railway. Mr. Ballance : I shall answer those speakers who have brought forward their private grievances. The first speaker referred to the fact that some European was fencing off land which belonged to the speaker. No man has a right to do anything of the kind, and I understand that a letter on the subject has been sent to the Government; therefore the matter will be seen into, and he will not be allowed to fence off other people's land. The second speaker referred to a rehearing which he asked for. This application must be made to the Commissioner, Mr. Brabant, when the whole of the circumstances will be inquired into. It is only right, when an application of this kind is made, that both parties should be present; and therefore when our friend's opponent Penetaka is here Mr. Brabant will make his inquiry. If there is fresh evidence to be brought forward, and if there is a good case shown for the rehearing, I have no doubt that the Commissioner will grant it, but you will have to prove your case before him. With regard to the last speaker, Hone Makarauri, I have this to say : that, if any persons told him that five chains could be taken on each side of the railway without payment, they told him what was not true. No person has a right to take Native land without payment. The Company or the Government must even pay for the track on which the railway runs. The land is valued, and compensation must be made according to the value. In some cases, however, the Natives are so very anxious for railways that they have given the land over which the railway will pass, because the railway gives a great value to the land on both sides of it, and therefore the Natives have freely given the land without payment at all; but that is with themselves, no person can force them to do it; if they insist upon it, the land must be paid for—that is the law. PaiJceha said that he had a block of land, of which people were robbing him. This land was Haukapa. He wished to give the land to the Government. The land was situated at Matamata. Tareha asked that his land at Te Aute might be surveyed. He applied to Mr. Smith, who said that there was a difficulty about the title. Jonathan Brown claimed the land; but Colonel Haultain decided that the land belonged to Tareha, who therefore asked that the land might be surveyed. Mr. Ballance said, with regard to the survey, that inquiry would be made as to the difficulty to which Mr. Smith referred. Te Wineka spoke with reference to Te Eereatukahia, near Katikati, and said that that land was reserved by Te Moananui and his sister Ngari, on the understanding that it was to be a reserve for a number of people. Te Moananui afterwards sold the whole of that land. The land was sold to provide food for the people who came to cry over the death of Ngari. Ngari's children should have succeeded to her interest in that land; and the Government said that provision would be made for the children out of the Matakana land. An inquiry was made before the Commissioner, and the land at Matakana was awarded to Wineka and his people. The Commissioner asked them to set apart a portion of the land for Ngari's children in place of that sold by Te Moananui. They agreed and gave seventy acres for those children, whose names had been placed in the certificate for that seventy acres. Wineka thought that the land which had been obtained by Mr. Gill should be cut in two, half to be retained by Mr. Gill, and half by him. Marata spoke with reference to Matapihi No. 3 and stated that Mr. Clarke adjudicated upon that land and decided that four names should go in the Crown grant—namely, Hamiora Tv, Te Aepu, Eaniera te Hiahia, and herself (Marata). Mr. Brabant called upon them to hand in the list of names, which was done, and the land subdivided. The land was then awarded to Hamiora Tv, Te Aepu, and herself. Only twenty-five acres were given to her and Te Aepu. She had been .

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informed that the land was to be reheard, for the fourth time, and objected to the matter being opened up again. Marata also spoke about the list of names handed in for the certificate of the Otawa Block. She said that supplementary lists had been handed in, and she had been injured and her land taken from her. She hoped that the new list would not be accepted, but the old list adhered to. Pane Titipa said that Sir Donald McLean and Mr. Clarke gave him a piece of land at Manawatu. He was absent from Tauraiiga when the land was dealt with, and it was all taken. Sir Donald McLean promised to give him seventy acres as compensation, which land had never been defined. Pane said that there were papers relating to the matter in Wellington, and Mr. Halse would remember about it. Mr. Halse had since stated that the documents could not be found, but Mr. Clarke said that they were in. Wellington. One of the documents was referred to Mr. Brabant, who sent it to Wellington. He now asked that the piece of land might be defined. Pane also referred to an island near Katikati called Te Hoa, and stated that some of the islands were awarded to him, but this one was not. The island was nearly covered at high spring-tides. He asked that he might be authorized to send in a list of names for a certificate of that land. He also asked that the sandbanks between Whareroa and Katikati might be given to them, as the birds rested on them, and at that time of the year they were covered with curlew. He would not agree to Te Hoa and the other sandbanks, being taken by the Government, as they came to him from his ancestors. Te Harawera spoke with reference to a piece of land at Ngakuriawhare, outside the confiscated boundary, and said that that land —Maurihoro —had not passed from him, but belonged to him and to those associated with him. Pomare spoke about a piece of land adjoining the Mangorewa Eoad, from which the timber was being taken, and said that Mr. Clarke said, that the timber on that land should not be taken to make bridges without his (Pomare's) consent. Mr. Clarke said that any money due on account of the bridge timber should not be paid until the land had passed the Court. The land had been awarded to Ngaiteahi —that is, the land from whence the timber for the bridges was cut. Pomare asked that the money on account of the bridge timber might be paid to them. Pomare also referred to the Haireni Block, and said that he first heard that Mr. Clarke and Major Mair awarded it to Pomare, Hone Makaranri, and Ngaiteahi. Hone Makarauri had had a new survey made lately. Mr. Brabant decided against him (Pomare). Hone Makarauri said that Pomare and others opposed him, but Mr. Clarke awarded the land to him. It was decided by Mr. Clarke that Pomare's name was to be placed in his list so far as the Te Pari part of the block was concerned. The Government afterwards caused a survey to be made, and the case was heard by Mr. Brabant. He admitted that Pomari had a right to Te Pari. Mr. Brabant suggested that she should have ten acres, which was agreed to. He (Makarauri) did not object to another hearing being granted. Te Whare Heira said that he was a joint owner with Titipa in the Hopai Island. The Commissioner ordered a survey to be made of the island, and the part that he applied for was left out. Mr. Turner, who surveyed the land, left out a portion of it. An application was made to Mr. Brabant about that portion, Tney wanted the list of names to apply to the whole island, and wanted the piece that was excluded from the survey to be included in the block. Beneti Ngatai spoke about a piece of land at Tawhai called Ongari, Lot No. 5. Enoka Te Whanake had that land excluded from sale on his (Eeneti's) account. The land was leased to Mr. Vesey Stewart for six years (afterwards extended to ninety-nine years) for £12 a year. Beneti asked that inquiry might be made into this, as the land would not now revert to him during his lifetime ; and also that he might be paid in advance for the ninety-nine years. There were 100 acres in the block. Mr. Ballance : I shall now reply to the principal subjects that have been brought forward. My time is limited, and I have some appointments in town which I desire to keep. I hope you will excuse my replying to all the various small matters which you have brought forward with regard to land. I have not all the facts before me, and it is impossible for me to go into these questions. Most of them are disputes between yourselves, and ought to be settled amongst yourselves, or before the Court. In many of these cases the law has given to the Commissioner the right of decision, and therefore you ought to appear before him and make good your cases. Some of the cases should come before the Government, and those, of course, I will deal with. As to what Eeneti has said about the lease for ninety-nine years, I would point out to him that it was the act of the owner of the land. It appears that he sold the land to Mr. Stewart, and that then the lease was granted for ninety-nine years. If the sale Had been completed the land would have passed from him for ever; now, he is getting a rent of £12 a year. I admit that ninety-nine years is too long for a lease, and no lease should be granted for so long a term; but the act is done, and cannot be undone. The fault does not rest with the Government, but with the person who sold the land. A request has been made to me for a cart. With regard to that, I would say that this Government does not make presents of that kind ; we think that it irrjures the people themselves ; it puts the people continually in the position of being beggars, and destroys their independence. We think that the people should be independent ; and. yon can be independent, with your splendid landed territory, if you only take care of it. Now, with regard to the request that has been made for the division of the £25 for the bridge I would like to say one word. The Government have got the £25, and wish to pay it over ; but why do you not settle amongst yourselves as to who is to get it. This is one of those matters that a Committee might deal with, and therefore I think that you should refer it to the Committee, or to two or three members, and let them decide. If you will do that, and the Committee decide, I shall abide by the decision of the Committee. Eeference has been made by Pane Titipa to a promise of Sir Donald McLean. I am told that there are some papers on this question; then, I will ask my friend to write me a letter, and I shall look into the papers, and, if I find that a promise has been made, I shall see that the land is defined and the pro9—G. 1.

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mise carried out. With regard to what Marata has said I may say this: that these rehearings are in the hands of the Commissioner; he will hear both sides, and decide fairly. Eeference has been made to a sale of land to Mr. Gill. Ido not see how the Government can interfere in this case. Eeference has been made to the promised provision for the children of Ngari. It is quite clear that Te Moananui had a Crown grant, and therefore had a right to sell the land. He had a legal right to sell the land, and he sold it, and Mr. Gill got a title. I think that the act of Te Moananui was wrong; but who is responsible for that ? If a chief sells land which he ought not to sell, and appropriates the money to himself, that is the fault of the chief. Therefore no one is to blame in this case hut Te Moananui. The one thing that I have pleasure in hearing is, that the children have received their land; and lam afraid that nothing more can be done. If you are ready to sell your land, that is the fault of those who sell it; but I hope that the law will be so amended as to give the people generally more control over their own lands, in order that abuses of this kind may be prevented. Now, I have discussed all these private grievances with you ; there are many others, no doubt, but I hope you will excuse me going into them. Most of the questions relating to land are dealt with by the Commissioner and by the Land Court. If there are other questions which you wish attended to, if you send me letters upon the subjects I will answer them. lam very glad that we have been able to go through all the business that you have brought before me. I shall now finish by saying that I wish the tribe great prosperity, and that it may become strong again; and I wish you good-bye.

Notes of a Meeting between the Hon. Mr. Ballance and Natives at Whakato, near Gisborne, on the 24th February, 1885. Hirini te Kani said : Welcome to see the people. They are here before you. Come and show us your work. It is on account of the Government work, the Land Court, that there are no people to welcome you to-day. Come to greet us, and to hear our greeting. We have not seen a Native Minister for many years. Come to us in remembrance of Sir Donald McLean, to see your people. We like you to come and see us, as you are the Native Minister. Tamati te Bangituaivaru: Salutations to you. Come to see us, in remembrance of Sir Donald McLean, who has shown love to the Native people ; come to us in the same spirit. It is very good that you have come to see us. Come to see the people, and to see the land. It is for you to say whether we are to live or die. Arapeta Potae then addressed those of the Ngatiporon who were present, and sang a song of welcome. Maraki te Eoari, of Wairoa, said: No Minister has come to see us since Sir Donald McLean, who brought prosperity to us. Since he died I have had no help. Hapimana Tinipaora : Welcome, the Government of New Zealand. Come and see the people. Come and see the griefs of the people. Come and examine into the troubles of the people. Come, the Native Minister. Come, my father; come, my friend, that I may show you the troubles under which I labour. Come to bring us help. [Song.] Come, my friend, perhaps you will be a Native Minister in reality, and not in name only. Come to see the Native people. Buitene, of Tologa Bay: Come to bring us relief. Where were you in all the past troubles, that you did not come to see us sooner. Come to see us ; come to see the land spread out before you. Who was it that consumed the land ? It was you. Salutations to you the devourer of the land. Will you be strong enough to save us ? lam afraid not. Can you save us or can you not ? Come to see us. Wi Peri said: Welcome, the Native Minister; welcome to come and see us, in terms of the invitation which the Natives of this district offered you. This word of invitation went out from their mouths, calling you to come to see them, as you have never seen them before. The last Native Minister, they say, was Sir Donald McLean; you are the next one to come and visit them. You are called the Native Minister —that is, the Minister for the Native people. It is very good that you have come to see us. These are all the words that will be spoken to you to-day. The only proceedings to-day are welcoming you. This is a day of pleasure, a day of amusement. My young people will indulge in amusement before you. The tribes will not speak on important subjects to-day. To-morrow the words will be spoken. Welcome to see the East Coast Natives. This is our word to you to-day. We hope that benefit will result from your having come to see us; benefit to both tribes, Europeans and Maoris. This ends the greeting to you. It is for you to reply, if you wish to do so. Mr. Ballance : My friends of the Native people, in the name of the Government of the Queen, ■which I represent, I thank you for your words of welcome to-day. When I first received the invitation to visit the people of this coast on the present occasion I at once assented. One of my reasons was this : I considered that the Native Minister should be a Native Minister in reality, and not in name only. I thought that it was the first duty of the Native Minister to make himself familiar with the wants and aspirations of the people. Acting upon that, I have visited various parts of this Island, and have come in contact with many of the tribes of the Native race. I have tried to understand their wishes, and, as far as lay in my power, to promote their prosperity. You have expressed the sentiment that I am come in the spirit of the late Sir Donald McLean. I know the confidence placed in Sir Donald McLean by the Native people. It is in that spirit, therefore, that I have come amongst you, earnestly desiring to do something to promote the prosperity which he sought to bring amongst you. I have appreciated the loyalty pervading the people to-day. I have heard that loyalty expressed in your songs. You have given expression to the loyal sentiment that the canoe should be fastened to the Governor. That is a just sentiment, and one that will be attended with great benefit to the Native people. The Government and the Parliament are sufficient in themselves to provide for the lasting welfare

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of the Natives. You have no need to go to England for rights and justice. There is both the power and the inclination in the Government and the Parliament of the colony to do full justice to the Native race. I know that you have grievances and troubles. It has been said that perhaps I have come here to-day as a swallower of the land. I reply that that is not true. It is the wish of the Government to protect the lands of the people. I have told all the tribes that it is for their welfare that they should not part with their lands, but that they should keep sufficient for themselves to maintain the race in independence. My belief is that, if you part with all your lands, you will become a race of paupers, and that the welfare and independence of the race depend entirely on their keeping sufficient of their lands in their own possession. I firmly believe that the day of wars is past in this colony, and that a much brighter day has dawned for the Native people—a time when they can devote themselves to industry and to peace ; when their happiness will be found in the cultivation of the soil, and not in making war upon the colonists and upon themselves. This, then, is the policy of the present Government: to consult you, to listen to your grievances and to try to remove them, to assist and strengthen you in the possession of your lands, and to see that, when you part with your lands, you do it in the light of day. The Government, therefore, holding these views, desire earnestly to promote your permanent welfare. We ask you to discuss these questions together. You have amongst you many chiefs of great intelligence and zeal, and I feel certain that, if you listen to the advice of those chiefs, you will not go far wrong. Wi Peri has referred to the present occasion as a time for greeting only, and I hope that I shall be able to-morrow to explain more fully the intentions and views of the Government; and I shall not, therefore, on the present occasion, interfere further with your enjoyment, but again thank you for your cordial words of welcome. The meeting was continued on the 25th February. Wi Pere said : The object of this meeting is to carry out the business of the Church. It was notified in the invitation that this meeting was in connection with the Church. There are some other matters which affect us very deeply. These are the troubles affecting ourselves; but no intimation was given in the invitation concerning those matters. I want to tell you that to-day will be completed the matters affecting the Church; after that, we will proceed with the matters which we have to lay before the Native Minister. We want to proceed with the business relating to our Church, so that it may be strengthened, so that we may return to the Church which we deserted some time ago ; we are now coming back to the fold. I ask that all the people who came here will remain for the present. The people belonging to the place must proceed to get food to entertain the visitors. To-morrow this meeting will come to an end and separate. It may be decided that we shall not separate for some time, that the work shall proceed. That, however, depends upon how we arrange matters to-day. I want you to be united to-day, and not to be distracted by anything else. My people will not separate to-day or to-morrow; they will remain in ono place. We will remain together until the business of this meeting is completed. Wi Peiiuhairangi, of Ngatiporou, said : Wi Pere has explained the object for which this meeting was called. The second word is contained in this document, which I shall read : " Whakato, 25th February, 1885. This is a request of ours the Native people living on the East Coast which we are now making to the Native Minister. We ask that you will consider the various matters which follow: (1.) The election of Committees to administer various blocks of land —that is, Committees for the various hapus of the East Coast Natives. This matter has been brought under the notice of Parliament. (2.) Let Boards be elected consisting of two Native members, and one European member appointed by the Government. (3.) Do not let the Native Eating Act apply to lands which have not passed the Court, or which are not occupied; let that be repealed for the present. (4.) Let an alteration be made in the Duties Act, which now provides that the whole of the duties shall be paid in one sum whenever lands are leased—that is, the duty has to be paid for the whole term. Let that duty be paid annually as the lease goes on. (5.) Let the custom of buying shares of Native land cease—that is, where there are a number of owners in one block. Let the duties of the Frauds Commissioner cease. (6.) Let a Eoyal Commission be appointed to inquire into the grievances affecting Native lands on the East Coast; let it be appointed in conformity with the existing laws, and in accordance with Native custom. (7.) The trustees for minors' interests in blocks of land : let these trusteeships be put a stop to—that is, they must not be allowed to sell the shares of those minors, but rather let that matter be left in the hands of the Native Committees. (8.) Let the Native Land Court laws be amended in certain directions. (9.) Let the Native Land Court now sitting at Waiomatatini be adjourned sine die at once, for the reason that the Native claimants have no money to pay the Court fees. Secondly, let it be postponed till the Native land laws are amended, and until Native Committees for the various blocks have been appointed or elected. (10.) The power for granting or receiving applications for rehearings now vested in the Chief Judge should be taken away from him. Let the applications made by Natives for rehearings be dealt with by the Government. Let these matters be considered by the Government and by certain Natives. (11.) With reference to the power now exercised by Government and by County Councils in taking roads over Native lands, before making such roads let application by made to the Native owners as to the best line to be adopted." These are all the subjects mentioned in this document. I wish to make some remarks in explanation of the ninth subject for discussion. It is with regard to the adjournment of the Waiomatatini Court. I support that proposal. This is a matter which is a grievance to the Natives of the East Coast; they know that some troubles arise in the Court. We know that certain people are entitled to certain blocks of land ; but, owing to the action of the Court, these peoples' claims are not upheld, and they lose their land. There are some people who are well known to be owners of land; but, owing to their ignorance and incapability of conducting their case in the Court, their land passes into the hands of people who are better educated, or who know how to conduct their claims better: and those people lose their land. Secondly, with regard to the Court fees, the

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Natives have no money to pay the Court fees, and are forced to borrow money from Europeans. After the lands have passed the Court the money which has been advanced upon them will be made a lien upon the land, and will bring trouble to the Natives. There are others who will indorse what I have said. Tamanui Tera: Welcome to see the people, and to bring us relief from the troubles under which we labour. I indorse the statement of the last speaker with regard to the Waiomatatini Court. I came here to support the request for an adjournment of that Court. Let that Court be put a stop to. There are others here who will support me in making this request. Let that Court be stopped absolutely. Another of my desires is that you will go with me to see the people. I wish to accompany you; I wish to guide you to Waiapu. I came here from the Ngatiporou ; I was sent to represent them. I came here on account of the troubles affecting our land. My desire was to go to Wellington. You stated yesterday that you would come to see us at another time; but lam afraid that it will be a long time before you return; that is why I ask you to go with me to Waiapu now. If you wait till you go back to Wellington there will be a great delay, and the Court will not be put a stop to if you go away to Wellington. We want you to go to Waiapu now, otherwise the Court will go on. I want you to listen to my song. [Tamanui then sang a song, "Where were you in the time of trouble?" I allude to the Koreke, which live in the mountains. That is all I have to say. Wi Pere : This is another matter which affects one of the hapus living at this place. They wish to make their requests to the Native Minister now with regard to this matter. [Wi Pere then read, the following letter: "To the Hon. the Native Minister. Friend, salutations to you. This is a request from us, the undersigned, asking that you will speak to the lessee of the Whangara Block, calling upon him to cease buying shares in that land, bacause that land is restricted. Restrictions were placed upon that land by the Native Land Court in 1871. We ask, therefore, that you will instruct that European to cease purchasing that land." The Native owners have represented to the lessee that this land has restrictions placed upon it, and they have asked him to desist from purchasing. While the present meeting has been going on this European has bought out certain shares ; probably his object is to buy up all the shares, by which means the restriction can be done away with. If there is any person to take our part perhaps you will inform us—that is, to tell this European that he is acting illegally. The Natives are wearying of representing this matter to the European ; he will not listen to what they have to say. The desire of the Natives interested is that those people who have sold to this European shall cease to have any interest in the land. The grantees well knew that there were restrictions upon the land; yet they were persuaded by this European to sell their interests, and take money. I suppose they thought that the non-sellers would be strong enough to hold the land for them. We think, of course, that the Native Land Court will protect the land and prevent it from being sold ; but we are troubled that this European should have gone on purchasing the land in this way, and we ask you to take some action in the matter. That is all I have to say with regard to that subject. I will now speak concerning the Native Land Court now sitting at Waiomatatini. I wrote a number of letters to Ngatiporou asking them to have that Court adjourned to a future time, so as to enable them to attend this meeting, because this meeting was called on their account. The whole of Ngatiporou (including the old chief now present, Tamanui Tera) agreed to have the Court adjourned; but three people stood up and insisted upon the Court proceeding. The result was that the presiding Judge listened to the representations made by the three Natives, and paid no attention to the word of the bulk of the people. I advised some of Ngatiporou to make representations to you upon the subject; perhaps they have already done so. I request you to grant the application made by Tamanui Tera and to direct that the Court be adjourned, because the laws which the Natives wish to be passed have not been completed. The Natives consider that, if these measures which they wish passed are passed during the forthcoming session, there will be no lands to apply them to if the Court goes on now; because the Natives in this district have only a little land left: commencing from Wairoa and extending to the East Capa the whole of the area owned by the Natives only amounts to about a million acres. There are only thirty or forty thousand acres of land owned by the Natives which have not passed the Court. There may be a hundred thousand acres. It is the great desire of the bulk of the Native people in this district that just laws should first bo passed affecting the Natives and their lands, lest things be allowed to remain and to go on as at piesent in their unsatisfactory state, troubles constantly arising between Natives and Europeans. If the present Court would only deal with troubles now existing between Natives and Europeans it would be very well; there would be no objection. I wish to tell you that I myself am responsible for these troubles, because you and the Premier requested me to put a stop to land-selling until after the forthcoming session of Parliament. When I came back I found that troubles were still going on, and I was foolish enough to pay no attention to the request you made me. I did nothing to stop them ; I allowed the present evils to go on. These people have no other matters to bring before you. You are aware of the grievances which they have laid before you to-day, and that there is a great deal beside with regard to those matters. It is the earnest wish of the people of this place that all troubles between them and Europeans may be done away with; secondly, that whatever lands remain to the Natives may be dealt with under a new law, and administered by the Native Committees. I again earnestly request you to give effect to the wish expressed by one of our old men—that is, with regard to the Court. If you yourself have no power to stop that Court to day, will you to-day and to-morrow and the next day communicate with the proper authorities, and, if necessary, go there yourself and put a stop to the Court. I sent full information to all the people of the East Coast with regard to this meeting. That Court was the means of preventing them from coming here. We have received a number of letters from the people, explaining that this Court was the reason why they did not attend. Their letters show that their desire to come here was very great; but they were precluded from doing so by the Court sitting in their own district. The Natives

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consider that, as you are the new Native Minister, there should be new and better laws, because they have seen that, under the laws passed by former Ministers, great evils have come upon the Native people. In some of the speeches of welcome made to you yesterday it was stated that Sir Donald McLean was the last Native Minister who went to visit the Native people, and we explained that it was he who afforded relief to the Native people when they were suffering trouble —that is, the troubles existing at that time—but now the new trouble is about the land. The troubles affecting the land commenced from the time of Sir Donald McLean down to the time when Mr. Bryce was appointed Native Minister. It is the great desire of the Natives that all troubles between Europeans and Natives in this district shall be put an end to. My earnest wish is that you will grant the request made by Tamanui Tera with regard to the adjournment of the Court, because we all uphold the application made by that chief. I wish to speak with regard to the District Native Committee. I ask that you will instruct Mr. Booth to let that Committee proceed with its duties now. Some time ago it was the custom to call Native members, or have them elected, to seats in the County Councils; but during the recent election no Natives have been asked to stand. The Natives present desire to discuss with you the various matters they have brought before you, so as to arrive at some satisfactory conclusion. Hapimana Tunupaora : I shall now speak of a trouble which affects my district, that is, Ngatikahungunu District; but, when I explain it, it may be seen that other places are affected as well by this grievance. The various hapus of Ngatikahungunu living at Wairoa make the following request to you, the Native Minister : (1.) "With regard to blocks of land wrongfully purchased by the Government : Euakiture, Otaramarama, Otukarangi, and Te Waiau; those are the blocks I refer to. These lands were brought under the Native Land Act. (2.) Some of our lands were taken by the Government surveyors without cause. Te Ahu-o-te-Atua was one, Te Buanui, Tuparaki, Waiau, and other places. (3.) A reserve which we made for one of our hapus at Otaramarama, containing three hundred acres, has been laid out in the wrong place, within a block belonging to Urewera. (4.) With reference to a Native reserve which Sir Donald McLean gave back to us : a hundred acres at W Tahaharera, also two hundred acres situated at Ohinikaka. This land has been taken by Government and given to Europeans. (5.) Eegarding roads made through Native lands. We ask that the Government should fence both sides of these roads. (6.) With reference to the lands that are wrongfully purchased by Europeans. With regard to those improper purchases, we ask that the Government may appoint a commission to inquire into these matters. We ask that this commission may be formed of either Maoris or Europeans. The great troubles under which the Natives labour are those mentioned by Wi Pere, but those which I have mentioned are only local matters. I shall be able to make an explanation with regard to the first matter that I brought before you. I say that the Government purchased those four blocks of land of mine wrongfully, and they got them through the action of the Native Land Court. The law provided that lands should first be surveyed, pass the Court, then be Crown-granted, before purchases were made; but these four blocks of land, were purchased by the Government, that is, by Mr. Locke, before they had passed the Court, and before they had been properly surveyed. The land "was merely estimated to contain so much. Euakiture was estimated to contain fifty thousand acres, Otaramarama was estimated to contain thirty-eight thousand acres more or less, Otukarangi and Te Waiau were only estimated : none of these blocks had been properly surveyed previously; they were only estimated to contain so much. After the Government had obtained possession of those lands then they sent their surveyor to survey them, and it was discovered that the area was greater than had been estimated. I will make an explanation with regard to the second subject, concerning the threa hundred acres that were set apart for another hapu. That reserve was included by Mr. Jodiah Hamlin within two thousand acres set apart for the Urewera. I have made repeated applications during past years to the Government about these reserves. I have made frequent applications by letter, but, as you are here now, I make this application to your face. I will now speak about portions of our land which have been taken by Government surveyors— namely, Waiau and three other blocks. Major Biggs was the Government officer at the time these lands were included within the confiscated boundary. If my explanation with regard to the various matters has not been clear, when you get up to reply you may make further inquiry if you think necessary. I shall now speak of a block of land called Paeroa, which I brought before the Native Land Court in 1867, and handed in a list consisting of eighty-one names. Throe years after that block passed the Court a lease was drawn up for the land and signed by twenty persons; sixty-one were left out. When those sixty-one persons found that their names had not been placed on the certificate, they applied to the Court for a rehearing, the European who leased the land having told them that it belonged to the twenty people only. The sixty-one persons wished to have their names inserted in the certificate. When they brought their application before the Court they were informed by the Court that what the European had told them was quite right, that there were only twenty persons in the certificate. Mr. Munro was presiding Judge. The case was afterwards brought before Judge Heale, and he told them that it was quite true, that only twenty persons had their names inserted. When I brought the land before the Court in the first instance I handed in one list containing eighty-one names; why was that list not adopted? Wi Pere : I omitted to explain, with regard to the block of land at Whangara, that the native interpreters are urging the Natives to sell, and I wish you would issue instructions to those interpreters telling them to desist; but the Natives think that the licenses of those interpreters should be taken away. Baniera te Heuheu : Salutations to you, the Native Minister. Wi Peiwhairangi omitted to include one subject in the document which he read; it refers to the trouble that has come upon the Natives in consequence of the action of the Government. There is a ferry boat across the river at Uawa, Tologa Bay. I think the Natives own the water at XJawa, and they own the land on both blinks. People are summoned if they are taken across in Native canoes. Another complaint that

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we have to make is, that wo were never informed what the regulations were affecting that ferry. There is another matter, which concerns Te Awapuni, which was formerly a lagoon or lake, and is near the mouth of the big river. The Waipoua runs into it. I signed an application for a survey of that land, so that our claims to the swamp might be adjudicated upon. I received an answer to the effect that that land belonged to the Queen. There is a Crown grant for a portion of land outside it, on the sea side of this lagoon. All the land surrounding it has been Crown-granted. This is all I have to bring before you. Bulca te Aratapu, of Waiapu, said : I desire to greet you, the Native Minister ; it is for you to extend relief to the Native people. The Native people on the East Coast are rejoiced at your having como to see them, and bid you welcome, because we are in hopes that good will result from your meeting us. It may be that you will be able to advise some measures for the good of the Native people. The Europeans were acquainted with the manners of the Native people formerly. It was known then that the Natives were a foolish, ignorant people; but when the good tidings, that is, when Christianity, was brought here, then we knew that the sun shone in the sky. We know now that we are living in much greater prosperity than formerly : but, although we are living under the law, a great many troubles have come upon us, and there is great wailing amongst the people. lam not bringing an accusation against the Europeans only. I admit that this was the fault of the Natives. I wish to speak in support of some of the subjects mentioned by Wi Peiwhairangi. You know that some of the subjects alluded to by Wi Peiwhairangi have been brought under the notice of Parliament. I will speak concerning the grievances under which the Native people suffer which have been caused by the action of the Native Land Court. There are many Natives who are great landowners; the law requires that they shall pay certain fees before they can bring their land before the Court; on account of their not having money to pay those fees they are unable to do so. On the other hand, there are Natives who are very small owners in the land, but, because they have money and know how to conduct their business, they are able to bring their claims before the Court. Then, lands in one district are taken to a distant Court for adjudication, and people are precluded, from attending on account of their having no money. These are real grievances, which deeply affect the Maori people. I will now speak about the applications for succession. This is a great grievance with us. Supposing there are ten grantees in a block and one dies and leaves two or three children, they have to pay for the succession order. Supposing there are only twenty acres in this block of land, and there are ten owners, consequently they only have two acres each. When one of the grantees dies, it may be that he is succeeded by four or five children ; their shares in the land are very small, not a quarter of an acre each, perhaps. I mean that the fees are altogether out of proportion to the value of the land. These people will have to continue paying for these succession orders, and, when the successors died, successors to successors will have to pay, so that there will be no end to it, and this land will be a constant liability. The Maoris are a very ignorant people, but they are quite alive to the fact that this matter presses very heavily upon them. We ask that you will do away with the fees for making succession orders. I wish to speak about roads running through Native land. With regard to this, we know instances where the roads could have been taken by much shorter lines; but the surveyor, having full authority, followed a much longer route, and the consequence was that a much larger quantity of our land was taken for the road. Of course, if there are any difficulties in the way of the road being taken straight, it would be quite different; but I am speaking of cases where the line has been made unnecessarily long, and a much greater quantity of our land taken in consequence. Some of our people have been sent to gaol on account of having obstructed the surveyors laying out the roads in this manner. It arose this way : The road had already been laid off, but the surveyor, having full authority no doubt to do so, came and made a deviation of that road. Some of us went to the surveyor and represented that we ought to be consulted in the matter, but he would not listen to us. The Natives took away the tools belonging to the surveyor; they were brought up for it, and had to pay £40. Eruera Pahou was one of the offending parties. He paid £40, but the others were sent to gaol. Mr. Ballance : Was it a county road, or a Government road ? Bulca, te Aralapu: It was a county road. Wi Pero : I forgot to allude to the work of erecting trig, stations on the East Coast. Surveyors from the Bay of Plenty have been doing that work. The surveyors in the Bay of Plenty surveying Native land, instead of cutting the boundary-lines, have been taking the points between the various trigs, and making those the boundary-lines. Mr. Ballanca : Before proceeding to speak upon the subjects brought forward to-day, I should like to say a few words with regard to the law. I said yesterday that, in my opinion, the time of war had passed for ever —that is, war between the two races in this colony —and that the time of discussion had come. • You have referred to your troubles, and I am not prepared to deny that you have many grievances ; and the great question that has to be settled is, how are these grievances to be redressed. I say, and say deliberately, not by violence and obstruction. That course can produce no good result. It would only mean destruction to the Native people, injury to the colony, with, perhaps, a little benefit to a few evil-designed persons. Therefore I think that the true remedy is in meeting together and discussing questions relating to the two races openly and in the light of day. For the Government of which lam a member I will say this : that it is its earnest desire to meet the Native people fairly, and try to understand their wants and their troubles ; and, when we have arrived at a knowledge of them, it is the duty of the Government to bring the questions before Parliament, so that the laws maybe improved. In many respects the law may not be perfect, but the place where perfection may be obtained is Parliament, and no where else. Many of the existing laws are good, but they are badly administered. In such cases the responsibility rests upon the Government of administering them better. Where the laws are defective and should be made better, the responsibility rests upon Parliament and upon the Government. In,

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Parliament you have some representatives who are sent there specially to advocate your cause, and they, I think, will admit that the House has always shown an inclination to listen with respectful attention to what they have to say, even in cases where they may not altogether agree with them ; and it is a well-known fact that the Native representatives, especially during the last five, six, seven, or eight years, have been men quite capable of fairly representing the interests of the Native people. They have been men of zeal and honest purpose. There is hardly a question now affecting the Native people that is not brought before and discussed in Parliament; and therefore I have asked you, with confidence, to refer all your grievances to the Parliament and to the Government. It has been said by some in the Waikato that the proper power to grant all your wants is the British Parliament; and a deputation headed by Tawhiao lately went to England for the purpose of inducing the British Paj^"^>*ent to interfere in this colony. They presented a petition to Lord Derby, and that petition was i^erred back to the Governor of the colony, because neither the British Parliament nor Lord Derby had any power to interfere in New Zealand. There are societies in England which live by agitation, and which represented to the Natives who went to England that the British Parliament would do something to redress what they called their grievances. They represented that if only Tawhiao were placed at the head of affairs all would be well. Even if that were possible—we know it is not possible, but were it possible—who, then, would rule the Maori people? Why, less than half a dozen chiefs who have surrounded Tawhiao, and who would pull the wires; and I venture to think that their own interests would be placed before the interests of the race. I tell you there is no hope in that quarter. In the first place, they have no power, and, in the next place, if they had power, it would not work well for the Native people. Enough on that head. I shall now ask you to follow me in detail over the subjects which have been so well introduced by the various persons who have spoken to-day. I will take those subjects in the order in which they were presented, and try to do full justice to them. In those cases where we cannot agree I will show you my reasons for differing from you; and, after I have done, if you can give better reasons than mine, I shall be prepared to submit. Therefore, let the strongest reasons prevail. The first subject is the appointment of Committees to administer blocks of land. The second subject refers to the appointment of Boards for disposing of the land. I shall deal with these two subjects as one. It is the intention, next session, to introduce a Bill for the purpose of giving the Natives the power of dealing with their own land. If the owners can be dealt with separately without having their interests defined, then, I think, the land is very likely to be wjongfully dealt with; but, where the people have the power of dealing with their land by some organization representing themselves, then the land is likely to be well administered. Now, what we propose is this : that, in the case of a block of land having passed through the Court, and one hundred persons having been found to be the owners, those owners should meet and elect a Committee. We propose that the Committee should consist of seven persons, and have the power of dealing with the land. The Committee should have power to sell or to lease. But it may be that, in some cases, the Committee might be acting contrary to the wish of the great majority of the owners ; and, after the Committee have made up their mind to a certain course, we would give a majority of the owners the power to veto the action of the Committee. I will show you the reason for this. Under an old Act of Parliament ten persons were often put in the title, and these ten represented the whole of the owners who were placed in the schedule, and' were trustees for them. Now, we have found by experience that, in a large number of cases, these ten persons have assumed to themselves the rights of owners, to the exclusion of all the others. We propose to take the power out of the hands of these persons, and to extend the power to all the ownei'3 to control their own lands. When the Committee has made up its mind to sell or lease its land, it will apply to the Board to take action. The Board will have the power to arrange with the Committee for surveys and roads —what proportion the land ought to bear. In order that the Board should fairly represent the Native people, it is proposed that there should be one person, a Commissioner, appointed by the Government; that the Chairman of the Native Committee of the District should be a member of the Board; and that there should be another member of the Committee, a Maori, to be appointed by the Government. This will give the people power in every case, after full discussion and openly in the light of day, as I have said, to dispose of their own lands; and no persons will be able then to get possession of Maori lands by a back door. Now, there will be one limitation to this power, which I should like to explain to you. The lands will have to be sold or leased under the laws of the colony. This is done to prevent monopoly, to obtain for the Native owners the best price, and to obtain for the colony a large European population. I believe that, if this becomes law, it will enable the Native people to administer their own lands better in the future than they have ever done in the past, and to put a stop to the scandals which have been a disgrace to the colony. I will now come to the third subject—the Eating Act. With regard to this Act, lam not personally in favour of it. Ido not know whether the Eating Act will be repealed by Parliament, as there is a strong feeling in favour of the Natives paying rates; but my opinion is that Native lands should not pay rates until they can be used, and therefore I am not in favour of the present Eating Act. I refer to the Native Lands Eating Act. But I think that, when the title has been ascertained, and the interests of the Native owners subdivided, the time has come when they should take the same position as Europeans, and my reason is this : I think that, since roads are calculated to benefit Native lands, Native lands should, contribute to the support of the roads, and that the Native owner should stand in precisely the same position as the European—pay rates, and be elected, or elect members, to the Eoad Boards and County Councils, and exercise a voice in reference to roads and lands generally. That is my opinion on this head. The fourth subject refers to the 10-per-cent. Native land duty. I admit at once that this is a very serious grievance. I know the difficulty of small lessees paying a large amount of duty down at once, and my opinion is that the old system should be returned to, and the duty paid once a year. Where the duty is paid in a lump sum it interferes very largely with the rent which the lessee can

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afford to pay. Where the duty is paid year by year he thinks less of it, as he has not to pay the money down at once; and, indeed, is not required to pay the money until he has produced something from the land. The fifth subject refers to the buying of Native shares, which it is thought should cease. Under the proposals which I have made with regard to future legislation that custom will cease. Then, with regard to the Frauds Commissioners, I have long been dissatisfied with the way in which the law has operated ; but, if in future the land is to be disposed of by Boards and Committees, then there will be no further occasion for Frauds Commissioners. It has been said that a Eoyal Commission should be appointed for the purpose of considering the grievances on the East Coast. I admit that the state of titles on this coast is now very bad, and some remedy must be provided. I have not yet arrived at a conclusion as to what that remedy should be, but before next session I shall have given it full consideration and be prepared to suggest a remedy to Parliament. The seventh subject refers to the trustees in the case of minors. We have found by experience that, in many cases, these trustees have very grossly abused their position. Ido not know that the remedy proposed —to refer the matter to the Native Committees—is the right one. I think it probable that the true remedy is to place these trusts under the Public Trustee, and let him appoint some responsible person in the district for the purpose of managing the trust. He, then, would be responsible to Parliament for the way in which he managed the trusts and distributed the money, and it would be impossible for the money to be misappropriated or misspent. But at any rate some kind of remedy is necessary ; the present system is exceedingly objectionable. The next subject refers to the amendment of the law affecting the Native Land Court. I think that, in many respects, the Court does require some kind of revision. lam inclined to think that, for instance, where the Chief Judge sits in a case, he should not be the person to take the rehearing. Eegarding the subject touched upon in connection with the Land Court —the Waiomatatini Court —now sitting, I would like to say a few words. You have asked that the Court should be adjourned. During the session, and since then, I have received numerous applications from Natives that the Court should sit. In fact, I was pressed in all directions for the Court to sit at Waiomatatini. In accordance with those requests, the Court now sits. And you now ask that the Court should be adjourned sine die. Is this the wish of the majority of the people ? lam not in a position to say, but I have heard that some of the most important chiefs living there, of the Ngatiporou tribe and others, are in favour of the Court going on. In this case you see the people are divided, and what am Itodo ? Of course, I respect the opinions of the chiefs who have to-day asked me for an adjournment of the Court, and would like to comply with the request, but I have no power to adjourn the Court. That power rests with the people who have cases before the Court, and with the Chief Judge. I can only represent to the Chief Judge the wishes of the chiefs who have spoken to-day, and then leave the matter in his discretion, and that I shall do; but I can go no further. The last subject was the question of roads through Native land, and you think that this subject ought to be referred to the Native owner as to the best lines to be taken. It is thought that the engineer is the best one to lay off the roads, because he has most knowledge in these matters; but I think that, when you have your local Committees or your District Committee, it would be a very proper thing for the engineer to confer with those Committees in the case of taking roads through Native lands—that they should consult together as to the best lines to be taken; and, in the case of Government roads, I shall see that that be done. In the case of County Council roads, you must see after that yourselves, by bringing the proper pressure to bear on your representatives in the Council. I have now gone over the eleven subjects to which you have referred, and dealt with each. Tamanui Tera has said that I should go to Waiomatatini for the purpose of seeing the people there with regard to the Court. I had intended to visit that place on the present occasion, but the necessity of being here prevented me. I regret very much that I am not able to visit the people of that place on my present trip. lam required to be in Wellington by Saturday, and must postpone my visit; but I hope to have the pleasure of seeing the people there before Parliament meets. Wi Pere has referred to the Whangara Block, and has asked me to bring pressure to bear to prevent people from buying shares. He says that the land is under restrictions. lam afraid that I cannot prevent the European from buying shares, any more than I can prevent the Natives from selling shares, except in one way. Ido not agree that any land should be dealt with on which there are restrictions; and since I ha,ve been Native Minister I have not allowed the restrictions to be lifted in a single case. The action of these people in buying shares is quite illegal. They can get no title, and they are only throwing their money away. Again, I think it is wrong on the part of the interpreters to be acting in cases which are undoubtedly illegal. Where restrictions have been placed upon lands, those lands are in the nature of public trusts, and restrictions are placed on land so that the land shall not pass away from the Native people ; and I say that any person who tries to get behind the law in that way is doing an illegal act. The only way that I can prevent Europeans from dealing in these lands is by adhering to my resolution that the restrictions shall in no case be lifted. It is quite true, as Wi Pere said, that I advised him to sell no more land until the law was clear. I should consider it disastrous to the Native people if they parted with the whole of their lands, or did not keep sufficient to preserve them in a state of independence in the future. I have heard a person, who was once a Judge of the Native Land Court, say that the sooner the Natives had parted with the whole of their lands the better for themselves, for then they would have to work for their living the same as labourers, and they would be forced to adopt habits of industry. I saw a letter also published in the newspapers from another person who had been a Judge of the Native Land Court, and in this letter he taught the same doctrine: he thought that the sooner the land was got from the Natives the better, even if it passed into the hands of the speculator. Now, I have no hesitation in denouncing this doctrine as grossly dishonest and cruel. I dispute the conclusions. I say that the only way the Natives can be preserved or attain a high state of civilization is by preserving their lands. That is the conclusion at which I have arrived after a great deal of thought; and lam bound to tell you, therefore, that the whole object of the

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policy of the Government shall be to enable the Natives, if they wish it, to save their own lands. I met with a hapu at Ohinemutu who wanted to part with the whole of their lands. I found that they had ten thousand acres left, and that these lands were under the Thermal Springs Act. They wished to have the Act lifted, in order that they might be able to sell the last land belonging to the hapu. I found there were seventy people amongst them, and that the land, if divided, would amount to 143 acres each, and I thought that that was not too much for the people, and refused to lift the Act; for I knew that, if the Act were lifted, the lands would be sold at once, and in less than one month the money would have gone, and the land, too. When a Native holds land in his own right, then I think that he might be able to deal with it the same as the European does; but, until then, the people should have the power of protecting their lands. So much on that head. Now, the next question is one of some importance :it refers to the District Committee; and it has been requested that this District Committee shall be called into existence as soon as possible. I will say, with regard to the District Committees, that in most places where I have been the District Committee is at work, and I have found, without exception, that the chairmen and members of those Committees are the very best men that could have been appointed. I have found that the Committees have risen to a very high sense of the responsibility devolving upon them, and are exceedingly anxious to administer their duties with the greatest possible benefit to the people. I have great pleasure in complying with that request, because I feel certain that the Committee elected in this district amongst the people would not be inferior to any of the other Committees. I shall therefore give instructions that the necessary machinery be employed to establish this Committee without delay. With regard to the election of Native land owners to the County Council, I would say that, as ratepayers, they should vote at the elections to the County Council; and the ratepayers ought to see that all their names are put down on the list, so that when the time for election comes round they will be able to exercise their votes. And let me tell you this : that the County Council will begin to consider your interests when you have begun to exercise your power. The County Council has great respect for the ratepayers and will obey their instructions. Now, I come to the question raised with respect to the blocks wrongfully purchased. These blocks were sold fourteen or fifteen years ago, lam told, and Crown grants have been issued. I have no power to go behind Crown grants; where you have sold land legally, the land has been sold and parted with, and cannot be dealt with again. You cannot expect that, after having sold your land and taken the money, you can have the land brought into the same position as before you sold it. With regard to the reserves which Hapimana says have been given to the pakehas, I will make inquiry into that matter upon my return to Wellington, and let him know the result of my inquiry. With respect to roads through Native lands, he thinks that the Government should fence both sides. When the roads are taken, it will be for you to make the bargain with the Government or the County Council in that matter. Where you sell the land for these purposes, I am not sure that the Government is called upon to fence the roads ; but, where you give the land, I am inclined to think it would be fair if they either fenced or contributed something to the fencing of the roads. The next subject is in reference to the lands wrongfully purchased by Europeans, and he thinks that a Commission should be issued. Of course, if they have been legally purchased, then, as I have said, they cannot be interfered with. If there is a dispute about the title, my former answer will refer to this. I hope next session by legislation, to enable all these old questions to be satisfactorily settled. Hapimana has referred to a case where eighty-one persons were in the title, and where sixty-one persons were left out of the grant. If he will write me a letter upon this subject I will promise him that it will be inquired into. Reference has been made to a ferryboat on the river, the land on both sides belonging to the Native owners; and Raniera has said that the Natives have been fined for taking people across in canoes. I will inquire into that matter also, if a letter is written upon it giving me all the information. Ruka has made a very clear speech with regard to some grievances, which I shall deal with now in detail. He has referred to the Native Land Court and thinks that the fees are too high. I agree that in many cases the fees are much too high, and I propose to take steps to reduce them. The Judges of the Native Land Court have now received instructions, in cases where Natives are unable to pay the fees, to remit them. He thinks, also, that the Court should be held in the district where the land is and where the great body of the owners reside. I agree with him, and have given instructions to that effect. He has also referred to succession orders, the fees on which he thinks are much too high. I agree with him there also, and it is my intention to reduce the fees to, say, five shillings in each case. At the present time, I have found that in a great many cases the fees are so large that they sweep away the whole of the land. Again, I find that much inconvenience has arisen from the great delay in granting succession claims, and I propose, next session, that the Resident Magistrate should have power to hear succession claims, giving the people the right to appeal to the Land Court if they think proper; and, if a Court be held once a month, there can never be much delay in future. These and various other questions will be dealt with by legislation next session. Now I have gone through all the various subjects which have been introduced by the different speakers. I shall hear what you have to say in reply, and be prepared further to deal with the questions. I shall be very glad indeed that you should criticise my opinions, for it is only by discussion that we can really arrive at the truth. Wi Peiwhairangi : I ask that the speech which you have just been good enough to make to us may be translated into Maori, seeing that notes have been taken of it. Mr. Ballance said that he would have this done. Wi Peiwhairangi : With regard to the ninth subject which I brought before you, I hope you will not consider that I was acting for myself alone in bringing that matter forward. It is the wish of Tamanui Tera and a great many people. Mr. Ballance : I understand that. Wi Peiwhairangi : When the Court opened at Waiomatatini I was present and a number of the other people who are here now. All the chiefs of Ngatiporou, including Wiremu Keeha and others, stood by and called upon the Ngatiporou to withdraw the whole of their cases. Te 10— G. 1.

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Hokamo then said that he would only bring forward two claims. They were lands in which the Government was interested, and there was a balance of money due. The bulk of the people agreed that those two blocks should be heard. The Ngatiporou generally approved of the resolution to withdraw the whole of the lands from the Court. When the Court opened the whole of the people went into the courthouse. I stood up before the Court and said : "I am one of the persons who has an application before the Court." I said that all the lands between Tawhiti Maunga and Uawa would be withdrawn. The Court asked me my reasons, and I explained that we had no money to pay the Court fees ; and, secondly, that we wished to have time to see if some better law could not be devised. The Court then asked how long an adjournment we required; would we be satisfied with three months, or more ? I then said that we would ask for an adjournment for three months, and if that was found to be too short we would get a further adjournment. The Court agreed to my request. Hone Paerata then said that he would withdraw Waipiro from hearing. Waipiro is the largest block belonging to Ngatiporou now before that Court. It amounts to thirty thousand acres, and has not passed the Court. When Hone Paerata asked for this land to be adjourned, another man said, ''This is the land which I particularly wish should be heard." There was a dispute, but it resulted in Hone Paerata's request being agreed to; this block was adjourned for three months, on the understanding that, if three months was too short, there would be a further adjournment. After we had finished speaking before the Court, the whole of Ngatiporou rose up and withdrew all their claims ; subsequently all the applications for succession were withdrawn. Then a European called William Milner stood up and said that the succession claims were to go on. He claimed on behalf of his children, his wife being dead. Eight claims were heard, and he paid £14 14s. fees. This European then went outside and said to the people, " Look at me, I have been called upon to pay these heavy fees." The Natives were then more strenuous in having the succession claims adjourned, when they saw how much this European had to pay. Sir George Whitmore then spoke to the Judge and said that it was his wish that the fees should be lessened. The presiding Judge said that he had not the power to make any reduction, but that he would refer the matter to the Chief Judge. Sir George Whitmore went to Auckland and saw the Chief Judge on the subject, who agreed to reduce the charges to ss. for each application. When they became aware that the whole of the claims had not been adjourned they turned their thoughts towards this meeting. Ngatiporou then said, "It is the wish of the people of influence and importance to come down to this meeting;" but one man —he was only one of a number of applicants—got up and said, "I do not intend to go down to this meeting." Ngatiporou then became undecided, because they thought that, if some of them came here, some of the people would proceed with the business during their absence ; and the Court encouraged these Natives to bring their cases forward. If you are able to adjourn the Court but for a week, so as to give Ngatiporou an opportunity of signing a petition, you would find that it was the united wish of the whole tribe that the Court should be postponed. Tamanui Tera is the man of highest rank amongst Ngatiporou ; he is the head of their tribe, and whenever he speaks he speaks the wish of the whole tribe. There were two great chiefs of Ngatiporou—Te Hokamo, who is dead, and Tamanui Tera, who is the great surviving chief. I see that some of our European friends have been putting the matter before you in a different light. Of course we only hear what you say to us from your interpreter ; we do not know what they say to you. I ask you to support me in this: that the lands which I withdrew from this Court should be held back till some better law has been devised for dealing with Native lands. I shall represent this matter again to the Judge. Hone Paerata : I shall speak to you about Waipiro. I adjourned that claim for three months. I ask that you will assist me in having that land adjourned from the present Court. I will bring it before the Court on some subsequent occasion. There are two chiefs interested in that land, myself and another. I ask that it may be adjourned, so that the District and Local Committees may deal with it hereafter. Wi Pere : I have heard all the matters relating to the Court now proceeding at Waiomatatini. I know the evils that will come upon the land in consequence. I say that, directly those lands pass the Court, they will pass from the hands of the Natives. There are many reasons why I say this. First, the troubles that affect the Court itself: the custom of the Court in fixing the witnesses who are to give evidence, and the men who are to conduct the various cases ; so that, when one person has been appointed an agent to conduct a certain case, if he should prove to be incapable, he cannot be replaced by a person possessing greater knowledge. Native Committees would not act this way. They would first of all carefully consider who are the most suitable persons to act as agents. The fault of this rests with the Native Land Court. Another fault is, the Natives going to Europeans and borrowing money to pay the Court fees. The former Government passed a law which provides that it is illegal to advance moneys on lands which have not passed the Court; but who will inform the Government when breaches of that law are committed? Another fault of the Court is this : In some cases the real owners of the land are set on one side on account of their not being able to conduct their cases, and the land is awarded to persons not possessing such large claims, or having no claims at all, but who are more able to conduct their cases; and afterwards, when subdivisions are called for, the real owners will ask for their shares to be given them, but the other people will argue that the Court will refer to its former notes and judge accordingly. Another fault committed by the Court is this: paying attention to the applications made by persons who are not the owners of the land, and giving way to them and doing as they wish. A great many blocks of land have been dealt with in this way. I therefore urge that you will ask the Chief Judge to adjourn this Court, as he has the power given him by Parliament to do so. In the whole of this district, extending from Wairoa to Waiapu, the only lands that remain to the Natives are those immediately about Waiapu; and I think that when a better law is passed there will be no lands to which to apply it, as all the lands will have passed away from the Natives. I went to Opotiki to persuade the Natives to withdraw their land from the Court. lam informed that two

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blocks which have been dealt with by the Court have since been sold absolutely. The people who are in treaty for these lands are waiting until the three months laid down by law expires, when they will conclude the purchase ; and the result will be that the Natives, having tasted the sweets of getting money, will still offer lands. My wish is the same as yours, that is, that proper Committees may have the administration of the land, so that the whole of the dealings may be clear and aboveboard, for the reason that the land now remaining in the possession of the Natives is very small indeed. A former law provided that no smaller quantity than fifty acres would be deemed sufficient for each Native. I believe such a law was passed some time ago. Now we find some Natives who have no land at all. I will not accuse the Europeans of bringing about this state of things. The blame rests equally upon the Natives. There is fault on both sides. I am not opposing the Court for the sake of obstruction, but rather think that we should wait for the present until a better law is passed by the forthcoming Parliament; but it may be that a majority in the House will prevent such a law being passed, and the result will be that, when one or two years have passed there will be no land left to the Maori people. lam in hopes that, if these matters are held over until a new law is passed, then the Maoris will be able to retain a little land, at all events. I will now speak with regard to what you have told us to-day. I heartily approve of what you have told the Natives at this meeting, because you agree that the Native land duties should be paid yearly instead of in a lump sum. lam the more emphatic upon this point, because it bears heavily upon the Natives as well as upon the Europeans. The only people who are not injuriously affected by this law are the rich Europeans : men with five or ten thousand pounds each. This burden does not press heavily upon them, but it weighs very heavily upon the poor man, and prevents him from renting Native lands, and it stands in the way of the Native lands being occupied and improved. Great ovils have resulted from this law. I will now speak concerning Committees to administer blocks of land. I agree that the law about Crown grants having a limited number of people only is altogether wrong. The great fault has been this : that when those Crown grants were issued no trust was implied in them. The law absolutely gave the land to the ten persons; they were not appointed trustees. The law regulating the issue of certificates is equally bad. No trust was imposed in the certificates, but absolute power was given to the people whose names were inserted to lease or otherwise. Under the Act of 1873 every owner had his name inserted in a memorial of ownership, and each man, woman, or child had a voice in the matter. The great evil arising from that law is this : that Europeans were enabled to come and buy Natives' shares. I heartily indorse what you say with regard to the real owners of the land having the administration of it. The Native people are all of that mind also. It should be the duty of the Frauds Commissioner to see that the Committee gave effect to the wishes of the people ; and a clause should be inserted to this effect: that the Local Committees shall have no power to deal with the land unless in accordance with the wishes of the owners ; and, in the case of Crown grants, it should be provided that Natives shall not be allowed to sell their respective shares unless the tribe and the Committee first agree, so that the Local Committee shall be the mouthpiece of the tribe, and carry out their wishes, the members of the Committee being selected from the owners of the land. The Land Board should be formed of two Maoris and one European, elected by the Government and the Committee. The duty of the Committee will be to explain to the Board what the wishes of the owners are —whether they wish to place stock upon it, or lease it, or sell it. These are the ideas of the Maoris with regard to the duties of those Committees. With regard to your suggestion that the Chairmen of the Native Committees shall be members ex officio, I think that a very good suggestion; but that must be decided at some future meeting. But with regard to our wishes generally, you have replied to them, and we are very much satisfied with what you have said. What you said is quite right, that you are not able to give effect to our wishes regarding all of those matters. Some of those matters will have to be referred to Parliament. We know that it is impossible for you to give effect to our wishes with regard to certain matters at present, when you have not the power to do so, but which it will be necessary for you to refer to Parliament. The whole of the words which you spoke to this meeting have given us satisfaction, and we consider that the various questions which were brought before you have been fully answered. The only thing about which we are not perfectly satisfied is this adjournment of the Waiomatatini Court. There is another matter which you did not quite answer to our satisfaction, and that is with regard to the Native Committees; but that rests with you; you may be able to give your attention to it before the House meets. It is with regard to their setting to work to devise laws for the benefit of the Europeans as well as the Natives, so that the old state of things might be altered. The old state of things was, that the Europeans alone made laws respecting the Native people. I ask you to take us into your confidence, and make new laws under which we are to live in future. Tour coming here and having these matters brought before you is a parallel case with my going to Parliament to make known the wishes of the people. I brought an Act before the Parliament last session to endeavour to give effect to the wishes of the Native people; but, owing to the forms of the House, this Bill of mine was put lower and lower, till at last the session closed without my being able to bring it forward; and a great many European members had their measures treated in the same way. In consequence of my Bill having been treated in this manner, the Natives think it would be far better for you to take the matter up and bring in a measure, because it is well known that the Government alone are able to get any measures they wish passed through the House. We ask you to make this a part of your policy, and not leave it to the Maoris. I ask you not to hesitate in having the Waiomatatini Court adjourned, but to act promptly in the matter. You say that you have not the power to adjourn ; but, in the event of some great trouble arising in consequence of the action of that Court, the responsibility of going there and putting an end to that trouble will fall upon you. If any person is killed or injured, will the responsibility be placed upon the Chief Judge of the Native Land Court, or will it fall upon you ? Do not think that lam making a threat; it is only a prophecy of mine ;it is only within the range of possibility that some trouble may occur. I say this because it is only some Natives in each hapu

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who are anxious for the Court to proceed; it is not the wish of the majority of the people. I urge you to be strong and not to content yourself with simply representing to the Chief Judge that it is the' wish of the people that the Court should be adjourned, but rather instruct him to adjourn it. I wish you to communicate with the Chief Judge to this effect: "In my opinion, the Court ought to be adjourned." I say this because the Native lands are surrounded with troubles, and this is the first time that any light has come upon them. The rays of light are endeavouring to come down on our land; but the law shades it and prevents it from coming. It is my wish that, if your Ministry is defeated, it will only be defeated on account of works that you are doing in the day-time, and it will eventually become known that, even if you were defeated, you fell by good measures —it was not because your Government was carrying out a bad policy that you were defeated. It would be quite right, if the Waiomatatini Court were only dealing with lands upon which Europeans have claims—lands upon which there is a dispute between Europeans and Natives—for it to proceed. No exception can be taken to any word that you have spoken to-day. You have made no promises ; but you have told us plainly that you will do what you can, and that you will bring new measures before Parliament hereafter. I suggest that you ask your various colleagues to advise the Chief Judge to postpone that Court, so that a speedy answer may be given to Tamanui Tera. You have agreed to our request with regard to the District Committee. I ask you to instruct Mr. Booth specially in that matter. I am very much pleased with the reply you made about Whangara. The Maoris, of course, are rather unreasonable in pressing for action to be taken immediately; but it is only natural in them to urge that. No other European speculators have behaved in such a manner as the European is doing with regard to that land. Other Europeans buy land that is not restricted, held under memorial of ownership, or otherwise. I would suggest that the present Government select some Natives to advise them upon all matters affecting the Native people, so that a representative person may be obtained from the East Coast District, some man who is acquainted with the wishes of the people. Ngapuhi may be represented, and other tribes as well, that their wishes may be known ; but you are acquainted with the wishes of the people of this district, on account of having met them to-day. While we have been engaged in speaking, a large present of food was made to you and the Europeans associated with you; but some greedy people have taken it. Mr. Ballance : I shall now refer to the questions which have been brought before me. First of all, permit me to thank you for the present of food which has not reached me. I hope it will do the people good who have got it; and that will be some consolation to those who have not got it. We are often called upon in life to make sacrifices for others—that is said to be the highest duty ?of civilized man; and in the case of the food I gladly make the sacrifice for the benefit of those who obtained it. Now, there was one question which I omitted to notice in my first speech. It refers to trig, stations. The object of trig, stations is not to define the boundaries of land belonging to people, but to enable the boundaries to be afterwards made when the land has passed through the Court, or is passing through the Court. The trig, stations, therefore, cannot affect the title to land. I wish you to clearly understand that. Therefore, I hope you will all assist in the work of making the trig, survey, and not obstruct it, because it cannot affect your interests prejudicially in any respect. I hope that I have made myself clear on this head. Now, with regard to the Waiomatatini Court, I have this to say : this is a matter that ought to be settled amongst yourselves, or, rather, amongst the Ngatiporou people. I do not think that I can go farther than this—to represent to the Chief Judge what you have said about the matter. I have no right to advise him, but I can represent to him what you say. My position is this, that I can only hear one side of the question to-day. The Court at Waiomatatini can hear both sides of the question, because both parties are there; and no Judge is called upon to decide on hearing only one side of the case. I hear to-day the wishes of those who are opposed to the Court going on ; but there are some important chiefs, and, no doubt, a great number of people, at Waiomatatini who are in favour of the Court going on; and that is my great difficulty. With regard to the prophecy that some person might be injured or killed, that I do not attach much importance to, because I am fully persuaded that Ngatiporou will never resort to violence in a matter that concerns their own affairs. I have seen the loyalty of that people myself when they rallied to the call of the Government to put down rebellion, and I will not believe that they are now going to break the law. lam as desirous as Wi Pere or any one that the lands should not pass out of the hands of the Native people, and I would use every power placed in my hands to prevent it, and, therefore, if he can show me any means by law by which I can assist him, I shall be only too ready to respond to his call. The law at present affords us many means of doing so, and I hope that next session we shall be placed in possession of complete power in this respect. I do not think that very much harm can be done before Parliament meets. Wi Pere will remember that last session he assisted us to pass an Act by which four and a half million acres of land was prevented from falling into the hands of speculators; and if he will assist me —and I am sure he will—we will take care that the remainder is placed in the same position. In the meantime I am using all the powers that the law has placed in my hands to save the lands from spoliation. Now, as I have said, I shall represent to the Chief Judge the opinions expressed by Wi Pere, Tamanui Tera, and others. I believe that both my duty and my power end there. With regard to the District Committee, I have already asked Mr. Booth to lose no time in bringing the Committee into existence, and I am sure that no delay will take place. With regard to the surveys of land in future, 1 have instructed that the notice of all surveys to bring land under the Court shall be referred to the Native Committee. This will enable the Native Committee to know what is going on. I had forgotten to say one word with regard to the Waiomatatini Court, which is of importance. You can ask the Court to place restrictions upon the land, and, if you can show that the quantity of land that is passing through the Court is not too much for the people, I am sure that the Court will accede to your request. With regard to the Government undertaking the charge of the legislation to which I have referred, it is the intention of the Government to bring in the Bill. I shall myself

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take charge of the Bill, and use every power to get it passed into law. I shall have it prepared before the beginning of the session, and hope to have it circulated amongst the Native people, so that they will have an opportunity of discussing it before the House meets. Wi Pere: I ask you to bring before your colleagues this proposal, that chiefs from various districts may go to Wellington to advise the Government with regard to the proposed legislation. Do not consider the expense that will be incurred; it will only be for one time. The Government should not consider this expense; they should look at the great expense incurred in printing and circulating Government documents amongst the half a million Europeans in these islands. Before leaving Wellington I asked that a certain number of copies of the Native Committee Eeports and Native Hansard should be sent to me : only a few copies have been sent. With regard to this new word you have spoken —that is, applications for surveys—l am glad you referred to it, because that was overlooked by us. It will be well if the choice as to who are to carry out the surveys was left in the hands of the Committee; they would then arrange that the lowest prices should be charged. According to the present law, only in the cases of land surveyed by Government surveyors are thecharges reasonable. If surveyors other than the Government surveyors are allowed to survey the land, the charges are very high indeed. The block may only be a small one, yet as much as £1,000 is sometimes charged. I had the Mangatu Block surveyed, and the charge was very small; that block contained 160,000 acres. There was another block of land of ours, which was only 30,000 acres, yet £1,400 was charged for the survey; and all the land was swallowed up to pay for the survey. I only paid £700 for the 160,000 acres. There are other cases such as this : the Natives get a block of land surveyed and they pay for the survey; it is afterwards found that the survey is inaccurate, and the land is re-surveyed by a Government surveyor, and the Natives are charged for the second survey. It was the Chief Surveyor who authorized the first survey being made. The Natives paid for it, and they are afterwards called upon to pay a second time for a fresh survey. I shall now refer to a matter which you arranged while I was in Wellington—that is, the 500 acres for myself and my people in the Patutahi Block. The sections which I selected in Wellington are, I find, nothing but pumice; no food will grow there. That is the reason they have not been already purchased by Europeans. Those lands would not fetch 10s. or £1 an acre. There is a small piece of land —it is a sort of hill —which still remains in the hands of the Government, and, although a great part of it consists of cliffs and precipices, I would be glad to take that, because the land is good, although it is very broken. The place I speak of is on the Patutahi Eoad, where it ascends the hill. Mr. Barraud is no doubt acquainted with this land ; he will know whether it has passed into the hands of Europeans or not. But it is not sufficiently large to discharge this liability. I ask you, in case of my being obliged to take this 500 acres, that you will add another 500 on account of its inferior quality. I have made inquiries about the burial-grounds, and I find that the Europeans are very hard in their demands with regard to those matters. I inquired of a European living near as to the quality of the 500 acres, and he advised me not to go to the land at all, because it was not good. I think, therefore, that I should have the whole of the balance of the land, even if it is three thousand acres ; I would then withdraw my claim to have the burial-grounds given to ' me. There is a European owning land at Taratahi who would sell his land for £12 an acre. This European, on whose land the burial-grounds are situated, offers to sell at £10 an acre, and, if the Government will buy them, I will hereafter endeavour to pay off the Government money year by year. If the Government will pay for the five acres, I will pay for the balance of it; if the Government will purchase the land for me from some Europeans, even if they have to give as much as £2,000 for it, I will repay the Government any excess that they have to pay. There was one case where a certain piece of land was arranged to be given for the Natives, and the reserve was made in a different place altogether; the graves were not included. The people present here desired me to request you to give them some ammunition. Some of the people advised me not to make this request, lest it should be said that we want this ammunition to shoot one another. I wish to explain to you that, in years when birds are plentiful, a chief should have as many as twenty licenses granted to him. My elder brother is in the habit of getting as many as a hundred issues of ammunition in the season when birds are plentiful. The reason preserved birds were so scarce at this meeting is that the Maoris had no ammunition. When Maoris go to shoot birds they shoot them for others —for great meetings, &c. —so that they may be able to entertain chiefs who come to see them. I hope that you will appoint some competent person who will be able to tell you when birds will be plentiful, so that ammunition may be issued freely during that time. The Natives have noticed that birds will be plentiful this year, and the shooting season should commence in April. I hope you will consider this matter now. Mr. Ballance : With respect to the supply of ammunition, there will be no difficulty about any respectable Natives receiving permits to purchase as much as they please. They have only to apply to Mr. Booth, the Eesident Magistrate, and he will grant them permits, the only limitation being that, if there is any known bad character, he will not issue licenses to him; but every respectable Native will have a permit, without any difficulty. I hope that meets your views upon that point. Several licenses can be granted. The restrictions have been greatly relaxed, and you will find no difficulty in future in obtaining sufficient for your wants. Now, with regard to the Patutahi Block and the graveyards, if Wi Pere will call to-morrow, we shall be able to discuss those questions, and I will try to effect a fair arrangement. With regard to the Hansard, I gave instructions that they should be sent to him, and lam surprised that they have not been received. I will have inquiries made by telegraph, and have them sent as soon as possible. Wi Pere : Some came, but others did not; it may be that Natives have taken them away from the post-office. Mr. Ballance : With regard to the meeting of Native chiefs in Wellington, that is a matter that I have thought a great deal about. It occurred to me that a meeting of the Native chiefs before the session commenced, from all parts of the Island, might be of some good, if they were able li—a. i.

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to discuss those questions which related to the welfare of the race. The matter is now under consideration, and it will be discussed by the members of the Government as soon as they gather together in Wellington. As soon as the decision is known, the leading chiefs throughout the Island will be informed of it; and if it should be determined to call a meeting of the kind you will hear more of it. I now presume that we have exhausted all the topics of discussion, and that nothing further of importance is left to discuss at this meeting. I hope, therefore, that you are all satisfied and are of opinion that I have met you fairly and openly. Remember that no people ever get all their wishes satisfied; it would never do if they got all they wanted, for sometimes they prefer wants which, if satisfied, would not be for their good. I think now that we fairly understand each other. We have arrived at this point, that questions can be openly discussed between us, when the reason for and against every request or demand will be fairly and openly argued out. My desire has been to do all that I possibly can to elevate the condition of the Native people; and that is the desire of every member of the Government. The Premier, Mr. Stout, has charge of the question of education, and his anxious desire is that schools should be established in all the Native settlements, and he wishes me to impress upon you the necessity of the elder people seeing that the children attend school with regularity. One of our great difficulties is that, when a school has been established and the children have attended for some time with tolerable regularity, the attendance falls off suddenly without apparent cause. The parents get indifferent and the children fall away. Now, I have to make this request at the conclusion, that, when schools are established, you will all unite to see that the children attend them. You can only hold your own with Europeans if you are an educated people, and you should all see that in the. future, for your own sakes—for your own existence — the children are fairly educated. Where I have found boys sufficiently educated, I have assisted them to get employment in the Civil Service, and I shall continue to do so. I make this, therefore, as a last and most important request, that, while the Government are willing to establish schools—to erect buildings and pay for them, and pay for the teachers—you will do your part, which is to see that the children attend, the schools. And now, finally, I thank you all for the very cordial welcome you have given me, and also for your patient hearing.

Authority: Geoeqe Didsbuey, Government Printer, Wellington.—lBBs.