THE STEAMER "HINEMOA." (PAPERS RELATING TO THE REFUSAL TO GRANT THE USE OF THE "HINEMOA" TO CONVEY THE MARQUIS OF NORMANBY, HIS FAMILY, ETC., TO VICTORIA.)

Appendix to the Journals of the House of Representatives, 1879 Session II, H-26

H.—26

Sess. 11.—1879. NEW ZEALAND.

THE STEAMER "HINEMOA." (PAPERS RELATING TO THE REFUSAL TO GRANT THE USE OF THE "HINEMOA" TO CONVEY THE MARQUIS OF NORMANBY, HIS FAMILY, ETC., TO VICTORIA.)

In reply to Addre.su of the House, 19tJi November, 1879.

No. 1. The Peemiee to His Excellency the Goveenoe. memorandum for Mis Excellency. Sic Geoeoe Geey presents his respectful compliments to the Marquis of Normanby. Sir George Grey understands that, at the meeting of the Executive Council this day, the Marquis of Normanby caused to be read out to the Council a minute, which had been entered upon the proceedings of Council, regarding a conversation which had passed at the meeting of Council on the 14th instant, and which, in Sir George Grey's belief, formed no part of the proceedings of the Council, as it took place before the minutes of the last proceedings were read and confirmed ; but, as the Governor has thought it necessary to enter upon the minutes of the Council his view of the matter, Sir George Grey now transmits a paper which he dictated on the 14th instant, immediately after his return from the Council, with the intention of transmitting it to the Governor, but which, upon second thoughts, he withheld, intending to destroy it, not wishing to embarrass in any way the Governor, who is about to leave the colony. He now, however, transmits it to the Governor, as he thinks it right this paper should remain on record, His Excellency having placed on the minutes of the Executive Council a minute recording his recollection of what took place on the 14th instant. Wellington, 21st January, 1879. G. Geey.

Enclosure. In reference to what passed in the Executive Council this morning, with regard to the " Hiuernoa," Sir George Grey thinks it right to make the following observations : — 2. When he recently returned to Wellington, he found that His Excellency had stated to Ministers that he desired, if possible, that the "Hinemoa" should take him to Melbourne, the Governor paying (Sir George Grey presumes out of the sum allowed by the Home Government for his passage) for the cost of coal, and that the vessel should then proceed to Sydney and convey Sir Hercules Robinson from Sydney to Wellington, as the new Governor of New Zealand. 3. Sir George Grey understood that the question was an open one, and did not know that any opinion had been expressed to the Governor by Ministers upon the subject, although he knew they were all anxious the Governor should have the vessel if possible. He asked for any written communication from the Governor regarding it, and was told there was none. He therefore presumed that the matter might be dealt with verbally, if Sir George Grey desired that it should be so treated. 4. Sir George Grey expressed the following views to Ministers upon the subject: He stated that the " Hinemoa " was especially intended for service on the coasts of New Zealand: to convey troops or assistance to any point if a sudden disturbance should unfortunately take place ;to afford assistance to settlers at any point if an alarm occurred, such as unfortunately takes place in New Zealand from time to time ; and for services of a like nature : and that upon the whole he was inclined to think that the Government ought not to set the example of sending the " Hinemoa " for any period of time from the colony. That in New Zealand, as has happened, a lunatic (for they never confine their lunatics) has committed a terrible murder and created great alarm in a remote district; that on other occasions men of violent passions have done the same thing; whilst, from any cause of this kind, at any unexpected moment, a temporary disturbance might take place which could easily be stopped by immediate action, but which, if a vessel was not readily available, might grow into a very serious affair. 5. Por these reasons Sir George Grey felt that, if an event of the kind he has alluded to took place, he might be justly and severely blamed, and would himself feel that he was culpable, and had not done his duty to Her Majesty's subjects, by running the risk of allowing the " Hinemoa " to leave the Colony of New Zealand; and for this cause he felt unwilling to allow the vessel to go to Melbourne and subsequently to Sydney.

IL—26

2

G. But, to speak candidly, he felt a reluctance in coming finally to this decision, for he wished to oblige the Governor, and also feared that he might give him serious offence if he did not meet his wishes in regard to the " Hinemoa." 7. As ho this day stated to the Governor, it was from such a hesitancy that he did not write to him upon the subject; and he thought that before or after this day's Executive Council the Governor might possibly mention the subject —that Sir George Grey could then explain the matter more fully— that there was a chance that His Excellency would have acquiesced in the views offered to him—and that, as the Governor had not himself written upon the subject, the whole matter might have been disposed of without any written documents passing. 8. Sir George Grey tried to-day to explain this to the Governor, who would not listen, but said it could not be explained; and Sir George Grey then assured him, in answer to the charge of his conduct having arisen from intentional disrespect upon his part, that such was not the case —that no disrespect had been intended; when His Excellency thought it right to reply that it would take a great deal to convince him that intentional disrespect had not been intended. 9. Sir George Grey has only further to say that he kept nearly silent at the Council to-day, as wishing not to be involved in what he regarded as a most unseemly scene, the Governor having treated him in an angry manner, and having replied to his assurance that no intentional disrespect was meant, that it would take a great deal to convince him that no disrespect was meant. 10. Sir George Grey thinks it right to say that, feeling what is due to himself in his private capacity and as Premier of this colony, he certainly cannot again attend the Council unless summoned upon some affair of special importance, because he will not subject himself to what he regards as insulting manner and disrespectful words ; for nothing in His Excellency's position justifies him in treating Ministers, or, indeed, any gentleman, in the manner in which he this day treated Sir George Grey. Wellington, 14th January, 1879. G. Grey.

No. 2. His Excellency the Govebnoe to the Peemiee. Memorandum for the Son. Sir Georqc Grey. The Governor presents his compliments to Sir George Grey, and begs to acknowledge (this day) the receipt of his memorandum of the 21st instant, which he requests may be added to the minutes of Council, in reply to what took place at Council on the 14th instant. Sir George Grey enters into various reasons why, in his opinion, it was undesirable that the " Hinemoa " should leave New Zealand. The Governor readily admits that there may be many reasons, including the possibility of a murder being committed by a lunatic, which might lead Sir George Grey to the conclusion that the use of the "Hinemoa" should not be granted; but he must again remind Sir George Grey that these reasons, however good they may be, are entirely irrelevant to what took place at Council, because the Governor took especial care to point out that what he complained of was not the question as to whether the use of the "Hinemoa" was or was not granted to him (which he always stated was a question entirely within the discretion of Ministers), but that no answer whatever had been vouchsafed to his request by Sir George Grey, although five out of the seven members of the Government had expressed themselves favourable to the proposal. The Governor first made the suggestion to Ministers on or about the 10th of December, and they assured him that they would at once communicate with Sir George Grey on the subject, and subsequently told him that they had done so. The Native Minister also, before leaving for the North, called and assured the Governor that he would speak to Sir George Grey on the subject as soon as he saw him, and that he would telegraph the answer to him in a few days, but that he was sure that it would be all right. After Sir George Grey's arrival in "Wellington, the Postmaster-General informed the Governor's Private Secretary that he had again spoken to Sir George Grey, and that he had promised to send an answer that day. The Governor had no reason whatever to doubt these assurances which he had received from the various Ministers in town ; and, therefore, having waited until the 14th of January, a week after Sir George Grey had arrived in Wellington, he could naturally draw no other conclusion than that the delay was caused by Sir George Grey purposely abstaining from giving any answer, which, to say the least of it, was a discourteous act. The Governor was further led to this conclusion by the recollection that, on other occasions, Sir George Grey's conduct to him has not always been marked by any great amount of consideration, especially in relation to the use of the " Hinemoa." He could not forget that since Sir George Grey has been in office, on almost every occasion (and they have not been many) on which he has aked for the use of the " Hinemoa " to convey him from one part of the colony to another, difficulties had been raised to his having her; and that last year, in Auckland, when the Governor, in pursuance of a promise which he had given two years before, wished to visit Hokianga, Sir George Grey positively refused to let him have the "Hinemoa" for three or four days to take him to that place, although at that very time she was lying at Onehunga for a fortnight doing nothing. The Governor purposely refrained from putting his suggestion that the " Hinemoa " should be permitted to take him to Melbourne into writing, because he was anxious that Ministers should be entirely unfettered in their decision, and he would have been perfectly satisfied with a verbal answer, whatever the decision arrived at by Ministers might have been; and he begs that it may now be distinctly understood that he in no way questions the wisdom or propriety of the decision arrived at by Sir George Grey. "What the Governor did complain of, and what he considers he has a perfect right to complain of

3

H.—26

was the want of courtesy and consideration, whether intentional or not, shown to him by Sir George Grey, in neglecting for so long a period to give him any answer, when he must have known that the Governor had to make his arrangements for moving to Victoria. A matter to be entered on the minutes of Council must take place in Council; but, as Sir George Grey is anxious that his memorandum should appear on the minutes, the Governor will submit it, together with this reply, at the next meeting of the Council, and it will then be placed upon the minutes. Government House, Wellington, 24th January, 1879. Nobmanby.

No. 3. The Premier to His Excellency the Governor. Memorandum for His Excellency. Sic Geoege Gkey begs to acknowledge the receipt of the Governor's memorandum of the 24th instant. 2. His Excellency is mistaken in believing that Sir George Grey asked that the paper he addressed to the Governor on the 21st instant should be added to the minutes of Council, in reply to what took place at Council on the 14th instant. 3. Sir George Grey's only desire was that his paper of the 21st instant should remain on record in the Governor's Office, and that a copy should be preserved for record in the Premier's Office. He does not think that the paper should be placed upon the minutes of the Executive Council. 4. Sir George Grey further respectfully states that, in his belief, the Governor was not justified in entering upon the proceedings of the Executive Council of the 14th instant the minute which he understands His Excellency caused to be so recorded; and he respectfully protests against that minute having been so entered. 5. The remarks His Excellency was pleased to address to Sir George Grey upon the 14th instant were made before the business of the Council commenced, and without any warning or notice that the subject His Excellency alluded to was to be brought under the consideration of the Council; and certainly His Excellency's remarks formed no portion of the deliberations, acts, proceedings, votes, or resolutions of the Executive Council. His Excellency's Instructions particularly direct that the business of the Executive Council should not commence until the minutes of the last meeting be read over, and confirmed or amended as the case may require. This had not been done when His Excellency addressed his remarks to Sir George Grey. 6. Sir George Grey respectfully points out that His Excellency is not authorized by law or custom to depart from the explicit Instructions of Her Majesty upon this head, which Instructions are necessary as a matter of convenient regulation, as it prevents any member of the Council, in the heat of any temporary excitement, from giving vent to his feelings until the orderly and methodical commencement of the business, under the prescribed regulations, has allowed time for any heat to evaporate. 7. Generally, with regard to the observations His Excellency has been pleased, in his memorandum of the 24th instant, to make upon the subject of his applications for the use of the " Hinemoa," Sir George Grey is conscious that an investigation into each case would show that he had always acted for the good of the Service, and that his earnest desire, holding this object in view, was, in as far as possible, to meet His Excellency's wishes with the most courteous respect. 8. Sir George Grey was not aware that these various matters were in His Excellency's mind, and influencing him, when he made to Sir George Grey, on the 14th instant, the remarks he thought proper to address to him. Even a misunderstanding on His Excellency's part on these subjects would not, however, in Sir George Grey's belief, justify the treatment which he received from the Governor on the occasion alluded to. Wellington, 28th January, 1879. G. Geey.

No. 4. His Excellency the Goveenoe to the Peemiee. Memorandum for the Hon. Sir George Grey. The Governor presents his compliments to Sir George Grey, and begs to acknowledge the receipt of his memorandum of this day's date, and in compliance with Sir George Grey's request, the Governor did not bring his memorandum under the consideration of the Council. Government House, Wellington, 28th January, 1579. Noemanby.

No. 5. The Peemiee to His Excellency the Governoh. Memorandum for His Excellency. Sic George Geey presents his respectful compliments to the Marquis o£ Normanby. 2. Sir George Grey encloses, for His Excellency's information, copy of a communication made yesterday afternoon to the Colonial Secretary by a member of the House of Representatives. 3. The Governor will probably feel, from this communication, that Sir George Grey really had good reason to hesitate and ponder in coming to a decision in favour of the "Hinemoa" being sent out of the colony, for the purpose of proceeding to Melbourne and Sydney, whilst such a feeling of apprehension as is disclosed in this communication existed in the minds of a portion of the European population.

IL—26

4

4. A man who has weighing upon his mind great interests, in which are involved the fate of many helpless and innocent families, and the future of two races, should be allowed to think long, and to preserve a calm mind, in coming to a conclusion upon such a question as was submitted for Sir George Grey's decision, especially as the circumstances surrounding it were varying from day to day. 5. The Home Government requires that this colony should provide for its internal safety in all respects, and has taken upon itself the duty of removing its Governors from colony to colony, either conveying them in vessels of war or making them an ample allowance to defray the costs of passage. Wellington, 28th January, 1879. G. Grey.

Enclosure. The Hon. the Peemiee, — Mr. Moorhouse waited upon me yesterday, and said that he had just come down the Wanganui River, and that he was much concerned at the state of things on the West Coast and up the river. He found that the young men of all the villages had gone to Parihaka, Te Whiti's place, and he gathered that extensive military preparations were being made there. He had learned, he believed on the best authority, that there were at the present time 3,000 men at Parihaka, and the Natives assured him that they had 300 tons of flour and 100 tons of powder in store there. Te Whiti, though generally pacific in his utterances, had sent to stop a search party in pursuit of Hiroki, and Mr. Williams, an officer of the Government, had been compelled to go back, because the chief who stopped the party with which he was, informed him that if he did not, Te Whiti's orders were to shoot him. Altogether this state of things was causing great alarm to the settlers, and Mr. Moorhouse felt it his duty to convey to the Government the information he had obtained. Above is & precis of what Mr. Moorhouse said, as nearly as I can recollect it. 27th January, 1879. G. S. Whitmoee.

No. 6. His Excellency the Goveenoe to the Peemiee. Memorandum for the Son. Sir George Grey. The Governor presents his compliments to Sir George Grey, and begs to acknowledge the receipt of his memorandum of this day's date. As regards that portion of it which refers to the " Hinemoa," the Governor must decline to make any further remarks upon that subject. The memorandum signed by Colonel Whitmore, a copy of which is enclosed by Sir George Grey, is, however, a matter of a much more serious character, and one which opens up an entirely new question, showing, as it does, that a state of feeling exists among the Natives of which the Governor considers that he ought long ago to have had official intimation. The Government either were or were not informed of the state of things now reported by Mr. Moorhouse. Three hundred tons of flour and a hundred tons of powder are not things which the Natives could collect in a day, and the Government should have had full knowledge of all that was taking place. If they had that knowledge, it was their bounden duty at once to have given the Governor official notice of it; and if, on the other hand, they were not aware of the existence of the state of things depicted by Mr. Moorhouse (the truth of which the Governor takes for granted Sir George Grey does not dispute or deny, or he presumes he would never have sent the memorandum officially to him without auy explanation or qualification), then the Governor can only say that it is little creditable to the Government that a private individual should be able to discover that which the Government, with all the staff of the Native Department to assist it, had failed to observe ; and it would certainly tend to shake the confidence of the country in the management of Native affairs by the Government, for the conduct of which they have always claimed so much credit. The idea, however, that the Government had no knowledge of the state of feeling among the Natives in the Wanganui districts until they received Mr. Moorhouse's report is so preposterous, that the Governor is inclined rather to think that the information has been purposely withheld from him until now, when Sir George Grey has seen fit to forward it, not as a most important fact which should be communicated to the Governor, but simply to show " that Sir George Grey really had good reason to hesitate and ponder in coming to a decision in favour of the ' Hinemoa' being sent out of the colony for the purpose of proceeding to Melbourne." Sir George Grey must, however, have been perfectly aware that, had he given the Governor the slightest intimation that there was even an uneasy feeling among the Natives which might require the services of the " Hinemoa," he would have been the last man in the colony to have suggested that she should have been sent away even for a single day. It is perfectly true that the Governor had seen reports in the newspapers that the Native affairs were not in the satisfactory state in which they were represented to be ; but, as he received no official report, and as the Native Minister, on the day on which he left for Auckland, assured him that everything was going on in the most satisfactory manner, he had no reason to believe those reports, or to think that the Natives were not in as quiet and peaceable a state as they were in two years ago. Sir George Grey having now officially informed him that this is not the case, and that there is cause to anticipate some disturbance, the Governor must request that he may be kept informed of what is actually going on, and of the steps taken by the Government to meet any outbreak that might possibly take place. Government House, Wellington, 29fh January, 1579. Normajtbt,

H.—26

5

No. 7. The Premier to His Excellency the Governor. Memorandum for Sis Excellency. Sic George Gret presents his respectful compliments to the Marquis of Normanby. 2. Sir George Grey regrets that the Governor should have fallen into a mistake. He will find, on a reference to the correspondence, that what Sir George Grey said was, that he had " good reason to hesitate and ponder in coming to a decision in favour of the ' Hinemoa' being sent out of the colony for the purpose of proceeding to Melbourne and Sydney, whilst such a feeling of apprehension as is disclosed in this communication existed in the minds of a portion of the European population." Sir George Grey never alluded to the state of feeling existing among the Natives. Ministers had already fully informed the Governor upon that subject, and if they had believed that any change had arisen, further information would have been given to him regarding it. , 3. Any man, however, accustomed to deal with two races inhabiting the same country, must know, when a portion of one of those races becomes greatly alarmed regarding the other race, that from any sudden cause serious and disastrous events may unexpectedly take place. Indeed, such alarms, although without foundation, are not unfrequently the cause of the realization of the very events they appear to have predicted, and, whether they are founded in reason or arise from foolish or mischievous false rumours, they must enter into the calculations of a Government which is providing for the public safety. 4. It was to show that such alarm did exist, and had for some time existed, in the minds of a portion of the European population, that Sir George Grey, on the 28th instant, enclosed the memorandum from Colonel Whitmore, but he had no intention of implying the accuracy of the information given to Mr. Moorhouse, and indulged the belief that the Governor, relying on what Ministers had told him, would know how inaccurate that information must be. 5. The Governor is pleased to say that he believes that Sir George Grey has purposely withheld most important information from him. It is to be regretted he should have stated this. On his part, Sir George Grey has only to say, that the Native Minister gave the Governor the fullest and most accurate information regarding the state of the Natives, and that he will continue to do so. Wellington, 31st January, 1879. G. Gret.

No. 8. His Excellency the Governor to tbe Premier. Memorandum for the Hon. Sir George Grey. The Governor presents his compliments to Sir George Grey; and in reply to his memorandum of the 31st of January, he can only express his satisfaction that Sir George Grey is able to assure him that in forwarding the memorandum which was signed by Colonel Whitmore, he had no intention of implying the accuracy of the information given to Mr. Moorhouse, which, if correct, would certainly have been of a character to create uneasiness. Sir George Grey, no doubt, did add the words "whilst such a feeling of apprehension as is disclosed in this communication existed in the minds of a portion of the European population;" but Sir George Grey at the same time stated that the report was furnished by a member of the House of Representatives, which was of course calculated to give weight to the communication, and he in no way intimated that he had reason to believe that the report was either exaggerated or unfounded. The Governor certainly never for a moment believed that Sir George Grey would have forwarded to him, in an official form, such a communication (without distinctly expressing his disbelief in the report) simply for the purpose of showing that alarm, which he knew to be unfounded, existed in the minds of some people on account of the state of feeling among the Natives on the West Coast, a fact the Governor had already learned by reading the local journals. Sir George Grey is pleased to state that the Native Minister gave the Governor the fullest and most accurate information regarding the state of the Natives. The Governor can only say that Sir George Grey's idea of full and accurate information must differ very materially from what he understands by those terms. The Governor has not seen the Native Minister more than four or five times in the last three or four months, and he has received no written communication from him. It is perfectly true that, just before proceeding to Auckland, the Native Minister called on him, and in the course of a very short conversation he assured him that Native matters were progressing in a most satisfactory manner. It is also true that within a few days the Colonial Secretary informed him that the Government were taking steps to strengthen the police force on the West Coast, in consequence of an uneasy feeling exhibited by the Natives in that district; and, subsequently, on four or five occasions, casual conversations have taken place between Ministers and the Governor upon the subject, generally in reply to some question put by him. Not a single letter, report, or official document of any kind, relating to the state of Native affairs on the West Coast, has, however, been forwarded for his perusal; and he therefore considers that he is perfectly justified in stating that information which should have been furnished has been purposely withheld from him. Government House, Wellington, Ist February, 1879. Normanby.

IL—26

6

No. 9. The Premier to His Excellency the Governor. Memorandum for His Excellency. Sic Geoege Gret presents his respectful compliments to the Marquis of Normanby. Sir George Grey will feel much obliged to the Governor if he will be so good as to direct that Sir George Grey be supplied with a copy of the minute His Excellency caused to be entered in the record-book of the proceedings of the Executive Council on the 14th ultimo, with reference to the remarks the Governor thought proper upon that day to address to Sir George Grey. Wellington, 3rd February, 1879. G. Geey.

No. 10. His Excellency the Governor to the Premier. Memorandum for the Hon. Sir George Grey. The Governor presents his compliments to Sir George Grey, and, in compliance with the request contained in his memorandum dated February 3rd, the Governor begs to enclose a copy of the minute which was made by the Clerk of the Executive Council, of what took place at the Council on the 14th of January. Government House, Wellington, sth February, 1879. Nobmanby.

Enclosure. Extbact from Minute of Executive Council of 14th January, 1879. The Governor expressed his satisfaction that the Premier was present, because he had some remarks to make before proceeding to other business, and which he preferred making in his presence. Soon after he had accepted the government of Victoria, he had intimated to Ministers present that it would be a great convenience to himself aud Sir Hercules Robinson if they would allow the " Hinemoa" to take him to Melbourne, and then to proceed to Sydney and bring Sir Hercules Robinson on here; that he had expressly stated that he did not ask it as a matter of right, but as a matter of courtesy; and that he was quite ready himself to pay for the coal consumed. That five Ministers out of the seven had expressed their readiness to concur in this arrangement, but that it would be necessary to refer the matter to the Premier, but that he should have an answer in a few days. That Sir George Grey had now been in Wellington for a week, and that the Postmaster-General had informed His Excellency's Private Secretary that he had spoken to Sir George Grey upon the subject, and that he had promised to write to the Governor the same day upon the subject —still no answer had been sent. That the question of whether the " Hinemoa " was sent or not was not the question in point, as that was a matter entirely within the discretion of Ministers; but that the Governor was entitled to the courtesy usually extended from one gentleman to another, and that he had a right to complain that no answer had been sent: that now he begged to inform Sir George Grey that he had in consequence made his own arrangements, and that he should leave on the 11th of February, land at Christchurch, and finally embark at the Bluff, in the " Arawata," for Melbourne. Sir George Grey assured His Excellency that no discourtesy was intended; that he was still giving the subject his consideration. His Excellency stated that, under the circumstances, it was difficult for him to believe it, and that Sir George Grey, when he was himself a Governor, would have been the first to resent any treatment of the kiud.

Authority: George Didsbuey, Government Printer, Wellington.—lB79.

Price 6d.j