REPORT OF THE TAIRUA INVESTIGATION COMMITTEE; TOGETHER WITH MINUTES OF EVIDENCE AND APPENDIX.

Appendix to the Journals of the House of Representatives, 1875 Session I, I-01

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REPORT OF THE TAIRUA INVESTIGATION COMMITTEE; TOGETHER WITH MINUTES OF EVIDENCE AND APPENDIX.

Report brought up llth October, 1875, and ordered to be printed.

WELLINGTON.

1875.

{Extracts from the Journals of the House of Representatives.) Thubsday, the 29th day of July, 1875. Ordered, That a Committee of twelve members, consisting of the Hon. Sir Donald McLean, the Hon. Major Atkinson, Mr. Bradshaw, Mr. O'Neill, Mr. Rolleston, Mr. Bichmond, Mr. Thomson, Mr. Reid, Mr. Wood, Mr. White, Mr. Sheehan, and the Mover, be appointed to inquire into the whole of the circumstances connected with the acquisition and transfer to provincial administration of the Tairua and Fakirarahi Blocks, in the Province of Auckland, and of all dealings whatsoever therewith by either the Colonial or Provincial Governments up to the present date. With power to call for persons and papers. Five members to be a quorum; and report to be brought up within six weeks.— (Sir G. Grey.) Fbiday, the 27th day op August, 1875. Ordered, That the Tairua Committee be authorized to inquire, to such an extent as the evidence taken before them may appear to render necessary, into the circumstances connected with any purchase of land negotiated or concluded by Mr. Mackay, Mr. Brissenden, or Colonel McDonnell. — (Sir G. Grey.) Wednesday, the Bth day op Septembeb, 1875. Ordered, That four weeks additional time be granted to the Tairua Investigation Committee, within which to consider and report upon the matters referred to it.— (Sir G. Grey.)

ORDERS OF REFERENCE.

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The Select Committee appointed to inquire into the whole of the circumstances connected with the acquisition and transfer to provincial administration of the Tairua and Pakirarahi blocks, in the Province of Auckland, and of all dealings whatsoever therewith by either the Colonial or Provincial Governments up to the present date, have the honor to report as follows :— The Tairua block, of 36,000 acres, was conveyed by the Natives to the Queen on the 7th December, 1872, without any reservation being expressed in the body of the deed, except of certain timber rights, to which the Committee will presently allude. The purchase of this block from the Natives was concluded as stated by the Native Minister. It was one of several blocks reported on by Mr. Preece, in respect of which the recommendation required by the Immigration and Public Works Amendment Act had been made by the provincial authorities. On the 24th June, 1874, the Tairua block was proclaimed waste lands of the Crown, subject to be dealt with in accordance with the land laws for the time being in force for the Province of Auckland. No reservation was notified in this Proclamation. On the 25th July, 1874, Mr. Mackay wrote a letter to the Provincial Government, stating that there was a reserve of 1,000 acres at Tairua not yet defined on the ground. On the 15th July, 1874, the conveyance of the Tairua block from the Natives to the Queen was registered. On the 14th April, 1875, the surveyor appointed by the Provincial Government reported the desirability of reserving a valuable site for a township in the Tairua block. On the 15th May, 1875, the Provincial Government heard that this same town site was about to be surveyed on behalf of the Natives, and Mr. Mackay did not report the special selection of this reserve until after this survey had been made; and on the 2nd July, 1875, the Provincial Government first learnt positively that it had been selected by the Natives as their reserve of 1,000 acres in the Tairua block, and that the Natives had leased it to an interpreter named Guilding, in Mr. Mackay's employment. He (Mr. Guilding) had had full knowledge of the transactions connected with this reserve from the signing of the original deed assigning the Tairua block to the Queen. Mr. Guilding, it appears, subsequently admitted Mr. O'Halloran, another clerk in Mr. Mackay's employment, as a partner in this lease. It appears that Mr. Mackay was not cognizant of this transaction prior to its completion, and he states in evidence that he expressed his disapproval of it. Mr. Guilding was an interpreter, and Mr. O'Halloran a clerk engaged and paid by Mr. Mackay both in his public and private business. The Committee are of opinion that the leasing of this reserve by persons employed by Mr. Mackay, and presumably with special information on the subject, not accessible to the public generally, is open to the gravest objection. The facts relating to the acceptance by Mr. Crippen, a clerk of Mr. Mackay's, of a share in the Prospectors'" Claim, are as follows : — The prospectors requested their agent, Mr. W. A. Graham, to offer a share in this claim to Mr. Mackay, the General Government Agent. Mr. Graham did so, and Mr. Mackay refused to accept it, giving as his reason that it would perhaps be made use of against him in his official capacity. Mr. Mackay was then asked if he would like to give it to Mr. O'Halloran. He objected to Mr. O'Halloran receiving it, as he was connected with him by marriage; but he suggested that Mr. W. A. Graham might give it to Mr. Crippen, " who had been a faithful servant of his." The share was accordingly given to Mr. Crippen, and subsequently, as appears from Mr. O'Halloran's evidence, the share was divided equally between Mr. Mackay's two clerks, Mr. O'Halloran and Mr. Crippen. It appears from documents before the Committee that this share was very shortly afterwards sold for a sum of about £2,000. Mr. O'Halloran acknowledges that he received £700 or £800 for his half-share. Mr. Mackay states positively that he himself has no interest in the claim, direct or indirect. The Committee consider that this transaction was highly improper, and that, while Mr. Mackay declined the share himself, he should have peremptorily refused to allow any of the persons in his employment to accept it. The terms upon which Mr. Mackay was employed upon the purchase of the Tairua and other blocks are narrated in the correspondence between him and the Public Works Department in the year 1872, and subsequently in papers laid on the Table this year (C. No. 3). From the Ist August, 1869, till January, 1872, Mr. Mackay had been engaged in business negotiations with private individuals, under which he had arranged for acquiring certain rights to timber, and it was made a condition of his undertaking the acquisition of these lands for the Crown, that the arrangements for the timber Avhich he had previously made on behalf of private individuals should be respected. Under these engagements the Provincial Government have acquired about 150,000 acres of

EEPORT.

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land; but the timber, for the most part, has passed into the hands of private individuals, by leases extending over a period of from twenty-one to ninety-nine years. The prospect of land being required for gold mining purposes seems to have influenced the Government in making an arrangement which would otherwise have little, if anything, to recommend it as productive of public benefit. Your Committee are of opinion that it ought not to have been left to the Land Purchase Agent, considering his previous relations to those transactions, to determine the nature and extent of those rights of private persons which the Government had authorized to be respected. It is clear to the Committee that the equity and value of such rights as have no legal sanction should, in these and all future cases, be the subject of investigation by some independent tribunal; and some means should now be taken satisfactorily to adjust the claims to timber, the title to which may require validation, and to settle upon a permanent basis the respective rights of the holders of these leases, and of the public. The Committee, while recognizing the difficulties which the Government had to encounter when establishing the Land Purchase Department, are of opinion that the state of things which, as shown by the evidence, exists in the Land Purchase Department is not an unnatural result of the anomalous position occupied by some of the purchasing agents. Thus, Mr. Mackay stands in a singularly undecided position. At one time he is admittedly a Government officer, at another he claims to be in an independent position, conducting land purchases for the Government on commission. In his employment, and standing in confidential positions towards him, Messrs. O'Halloran and Crippen have the opportunity of taking part in Government landpurchase business, and are in a position to ascertain the intentions of the Government, and have access to Government records, and yet, at the same time, they are not in any way whatever under the control of the Government. The Committee consider that the engagement of persons on such conditions is inconsistent with the public interest, and they recommend that in future all persons employed by the Government as agents for the purchase of land, no matter whether paid by salary or commission, and all persons in their immediate employment, should be taken to be Government officers, and be subject to the ordinary rules of the Civil Service. Finally, the Committee express their opinion that the general effect of the evidence is to create a feeling of distrust in the administration of the Land Purchase Department, and to render it necessary that strong measures should be taken to purify the system, and remove from it those elements which, as shown by the evidence taken in regard to some of the agencies, are likely to bring discredit on the Public Service. With this view legislation will be necessary. As the law affecting the purchase of Native lands now stands, and in view of the power which the Government has to intercept or to prohibit private negotiations, the public generally refrain from entering upon private purchases, knowing the difficulty of completing them without the consent, tacit or expressed, of the Government. This has already, in some instances, as shown by the evidence, subjected officers of the department to solicitations from private parties, on various grounds, to allow them to complete, and sometimes to assist them in completing, private transactions. The Committee consider that the law should be altered so as either to re-establish the Crown's right of pre-emption, or else to permit the direct-purchase system to have full sway. The Committee are also of opinion that the purchase or leasing of Native lands directly or indirectly to their own interest or advantage, or for other persons, by Government officers or agents whose duty it is to purchase Native lands for the public, is contrary to the public interest, and that it should be an instruction to persons employed in the Land Purchase Department to refrain, on pain of dismissal from the Public Service, from being concerned in such transactions in the future. Under the second order of reference, of Friday, 27th August,' your Committee have taken a large amount of evidence, on oath, of a most conflicting character. Upon this they do not feel that they can arrive at any decisive or satisfactory conclusion. They have directed it to be appended to this Report. G. Grey,

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Wednesday, 4th August, 1875. The Committee met pursuant to notice at 12 o'clock noon. Present: Sir G. Grey, Mr. Sheehan, Hon. Sir D. McLean, Mr. Thomson, Mr. O;Neill, Mr. White. Mr. Richmond, Order of reference read. Resolved, on motion of the Hon. Sir D. McLean, That Sir G. Grey be appointed Chairman of this Committee. Resolved, on the motion of the Hon. Sir D. McLean, That the Committee do adjourn till Thursday, the sth August, at 11 o'clock, to allow time to procure papers, documents, &c. The Committee then adjourned.

Thuesdat, sth August. The Committee met pursuant to notice at 11 o'clock. Peesent: Sir G. Grey in the Chair. Hon. Sir D. McLean, Mr. Sheehan, Mr. O'Neill, Mr. Thomson, Mr. Richmond, Mr.. White. Submitted: printed copies of correspondence relating to the Tairua Native reserve; printed copies of correspondence of claims upon land taken over by the Province of Auckland from the General Government; also, printed copy of reports of Native Land Purchase Agents, and map of the Tairua district. Sir G. Grey read and submitted a telegram from the Superintendent of Auckland to the Hon. the Colonial Secretary. » Resolved, on motion of Mr. Thomson, That Mr. Mackay be desired to attend to give evidence on Friday, 6th August, at 11.45 o'clock. Resolved, on motion of Mr. Sheehan, That the Committee do adjourn till Friday, 6th August, at 11 o'clock.

Fbiday, 6th August, 1875. The Committee met pursuant to notice at 11 o'clock. Peesenti Sir Gr. Grey in the Chair. Hon. Sir D. McLean, Mr. Sheehan, Mr. O'Neill, Mr. Thomson, Mr. Richmond, Mr. White. Mr. Rolleston, The minutes of previous meeting read and confirmed. Telegram from Sir GJ-. Grey to the Hon. the Colonial Secretary, dated 15th June, 1875, read. Telegram from Mr. J Mackay to the Hon. Dr. Pollen, dated 15th June, 1875, submitted and read. The Hon. Sir D. McLean put in correspondence relating to Tairua Gold Kelds and Prospectors' Claim. Mr. Maekay's examination deferred. Resolved, on motion of Mr. Thomson, That the Committee do adjourn till Tuesday, 10th August, at 11 o'clock. The Committee then adjourned.

Tuesday, 10th August, 1875. The Committee met pursuant to notice at 11 o'clock. Peesent: Sir G. Grey in the Chair. Mr. O'Neill, Mr. Sheehan, Mr. Richmond, Mr. Thomson. Mr. Eolleston, The minutes of previous meeting read and confirmed.

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS.

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Resolved, on motion of Sir G. Grey, That the correspondence relating to the Tairua Gold Field and Prospectors' Claim be read to the Committee. Part of correspondence read. Resolved, on motion of Mr. Rolleston, That the Committee do adjourn till Wednesday, llth August, at li o'clock.

Wednesday, 11th August, 1875. The Committee met pursuant to notice at 11 o'clock. Peesent: Sir G-. Grey in the Chair. Hon. Sir D. McLean, Mr. Thomson, Mr. Rolleston, Mr. White. Mr. Sheehan, The minutes of previous meeting read and confirmed. Reading of the correspondence relating to the Tairua Gold Fields and Prospectors' Claim resumed and completed. Copy of a letter from Mr. Mackay to His Honor the Superintendent of Auckland, dated 28th June, 1875; also, a copy of telegram from Mr. Mackay to Messrs. Preece and Graham, dated 22nd June, 1874, submitted and read. Resolved, on motion of Mr. Rolleston, That witnesses be examined on oath. Resolved, on motion oJ Mr. Thomson, That Mr. Mackay be desired to attend on Thursday, 12th August, at 11 o'clock. Resolved, on motion of Mr. Sheehan, That the Committee do adjourn till Thursday, 12th August, at 11 o'clock. The Committee then adjourned.

Thuesdat, 12th August, 1875. The Committee met pursuant to notice at 11 o'clock. Present: Sir G. Grey in the Chair. Hon. Major Atkinson, Mr. Richmond, Hon. Sir D. McLean, Mr. Rolleston, Mr. O'Neill, Mr. Sheehan, Mr. Reid, Mr. Thomson. The minutes of previous meeting read and confirmed. Mr. James Mackay in attendance ; and, before being sworn, he requested that he might be present during the examination of witnesses, and have the privilege of cross-examining them. Granted. Mr. Mackay, during his evidence, handed report from Mr. John Guilding, Native interpreter, relative to Tairua reserve. Correspondence between the Superintendent of Auckland and Mr. James Mackay. Telegraphic communication between Mr. John Guilding, Native interpreter, and Mr. James Mackay, relative to leasing of Tairua block. Resolved, That the summoning of other witnesses be postponed until after the consideration of the evidence already taken by the Committee. Resolved, on motion of Mr. Rolleston, That the Committee do adjourn till Friday, 13th August, at 11 o'clock. The Committee then adjourned.

Feidat, 13th August, 1875. The Committee met pursuant to notice at 11 o'clock. Peesent: Sir G-. Grey in the Chair. Hon. Major Atkinson, Mr. Rolleston, Hon. Sir D. DcLean, Mr. Sheehan, Mr. O'Neill, Mr. Thomson. Mr. Richmond, The minutes of previous meeting read and confirmed. Mr. James Mackay in attendance, and further examined on oath. Mr. Mackay handed in during his evidence a copy of a writ issued against him and others in Auckland. Resolved, on motion of Sir G. G-rey, That Colonel McDonnell be summoned from Auckland to attend this Committee. Mr. Rolleston requested the Chairman to apply to Mr. Rees, of Auckland, for a copy of a declaration mentioned by Mr. Mackay in his evidence. Resolved, on motion of Sir D. McLean, That the Committee do adjourn till Wednesday, 18th. August, at 11 o'clock. The Committee then adjourned.

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Wednesday, 18th August, 1875. The Committee met pursuant to notice at 11 o'clock. Peesent: Sir Gr. Grey in the Chair. Hon. Major Atkinson, Mr. Eichmond, Mr. Bradshaw, Mr. Eolleston, Hon. Sir D. McLean, Mr. Sheehan, Mr. O'Neill, Mr. Thomson. The minutes of previous meeting read and confirmed. The Hon. Sir D. McLean in attendance, and examined on oath. Colonel McDonnell in attendance, and examined on oath. Besolved, on motion of Mr. Eolleston, That all original correspondence in reference to the purchase of the Te Aroa, Waiharakeke, and Hungahunga blocks be brought before the Committee, including the correspondence between the Government and Mr. Mackay, and between Mr. Mackay, as representing the Government, and Mr. Thomas Eussell. Besolved, on motion of the Hon. Major Atkinson, That the examination of Colonel McDonnell be postponed till Friday, the 20th August, when Mr. Brissenden will be present. Besolved, on motion of Sir G. Grey, That the Committee do adjourn till Friday, 20th August, at 11 o'clock. The Committee then adjourned.

Friday, 20th August, 1875. The Committee met pursuant to notice at 11 o'clock. Present : Sir Gr. Grey in the Chair. Hon. Major Atkinson, Mr. Eichmond, Mr. Bradshaw, Mr. Eolleston, Mr. O'Neill, Mr. Sheehan, Hon. Sir D. McLean, Mr. Thomson. The minutes of previous meeting read and confirmed. Sir D. McLean handed in the original correspondence between the Government and Mr. Thomas Russell, and between Mr. James Mackay and Mr. Thomas Eussell, with reference to the Shortland Saw-mill Company. Mr. Clarke, Under Secretary for Native Affairs, in attendance, and examined on oath. Mr. Clarke handed in papers relating to Hungahunga and Waiharakeke blocks, Eussell's purchase. Mr. Eolleston proposed, That the original papers with regard to the illegal issue of miners' rights at Ohinemuri, which have been stated to have a bearing on the method of conducting land purchases, be brought before the Committee, to enable the Committee to judge whether they are relevant to the present meeting. And the question being put, the Committee divided, and the names were taken down as follows :— Ayes, 4. Noes, 3. Mr. Bradshaw, Hon. Major Atkinson, Mr. O'Neill, Hon. Sir D. McLean, Mr. Eolleston, Mr. Eichmond. Mr. Sheehan. So it was Besolved in the affirmative. Mr. Clarke thereupon handed in the papers relating to the Ohinemuri Miners' Eights Inquiry, 1875. Mr. Mackay was called to make a statement regarding the alleged non-fulfilment of promises, ■with reference to the examination of witnesses made to him by the Committee. The Chairman then handed in the following letter : — " Sib,— " Wellington, 20th August, 1875. " I have the honor to most respectfully request that Sir Gr. Grey, X.C.8., and Mr. George T. Wilkinson, Licensed Interpreter, at G-rahamstown, may be examined before the Tairua Investigation Committee, as I believe they can give material evidence on my behalf in the questions submitted to the Committee for investigation. " I have, &c, " The Chairman, Tairua Investigation Committee." " James Mackay. Resolved, on motion of Mr. Eolleston, That the Committee do adjourn till Wednesday, 25th August, at 11 o'clock. The Committee then adjourned.

Wednesday, 25th August, 1875. The Committee met pursuant to notice at 11 o'clock. Peesent : Sir G. Grey in the Chair. Hon. Major Atkinson, Mr. Eichmond, Hon. Sir D. McLean, Mr. Eolleston, Mr. O'Neill, Mr. Sheehan. Mr. Eeid, The minutes of previous meeting read and confirmed.

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Resolved, That Colonel McDonnell, Mr. Brissenden, and Mr. Davis be summoned to attend a meeting of the Committee on Friday, 27th August, at 11 o'clock. Resolved, on motion of Mr. Rolleston, That the Committee do adjourn till Friday, 27th August, at 11 o'clock. The Committee then adjourned.

Friday, 27th August, 1875. The Cdmmittee met pursuant to notice at 11 o'clock. Present : Sir G. Grey in the Chair. Hon. Major Atkinson, Mr. Richmond, Mr. Bradshaw, Mr. Rolleston, Hon. Sir D. McLean, Mr. Sheehan, Mr. O'Neill, Mr. Thomson, Colonel McDonnell in attendance, and examined on oath. Colonel McDonnell during his evidence handed in and read a rough copy of a letter, dated 25th January, from himself to Sir D. McLean. {Vide Colonel McDonnell's evidence.) Mr. Davis in attendance, and examined on oath. Resolved, on motion of Mr. Sheehan, That the House be requested to pass the following Resolution : —" That the Tairua^Committee be authorized to inquire, to such an extent as the evidence taken before them may appear necessary, into the circumstances connected with any purchase of lands negotiated or concluded by Mr. Mackay, Mr. Brissenden, or Colonel McDonnell." Resolved, on motion of Mr. Richmond, That the Committee do adjourn till Tuesday, 31st August, at 11 o'clock. The Committee then adjourned.

Tuesday, 31st August, 1875. The Committee met pursuant to notice at 11 o'clock. Present : Sir G. Grey in the Chair. Hon. Major Atkinson, Mr. Richmond, Mr. Bradshaw, Mr. Rolleston, Hon. Sir D. McLean, Mr. Sheehan, Mr. O'Neill, Mr. Thomson. The minutes of previous meeting read and confirmed. Order of reference, dated 27th August, read. Mr. Brissenden in attendance, and examined on oath. Mr. Brissenden retired at the request of the Committee. Dr. Pollen in attendance, and examined on oath. The Hon. Sir D. McLean put in telegrams referring to Colonel McDonnell's letter of 25th January. Mr. Brissenden attended by consent of the Committee, and made a short statement. Ordered, That Mr. Mackay be summoned to attend the next meeting of Committee. Resolved, on motion of Mr. Rolleston, That the Committee do adjourn till Thursday, 2nd September, at 11 o'clock. The Committee then adjourned.

Thursday, 2nd September, 1875, The Committee met pursuant to notice at 11 o'clock. Present : Sir G-. Grey in the Chair. Mr. Bradshaw, Mr. Rolleston, Hon. Sir D. McLean, Mr. Sheehan. Mr. O'Neill, The minutes of previous meeting read and confirmed. Mr. Mackay in attendance, and sworn. Sir G. Grey sworn, and cross-examined by Mr. Mackay, Mr. Rolleston being in the chair. Sir G. Grey resumed the chair. Colonel McDonnell in attendance, and further examined on oath. Besolv'ed, on motion of Mr. Sheehan, That the Committee do adjourn till Tuesday, 7th September, at 11 o'clock. The Committee then adjourned.

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Tuesday, 7th Septembee, 1875. The Committee met pursuant to notice at 11 o'clock. Peesent: Sir G. Grey in the Chair. Mr. Bradshaw, Mr. Eichmond, Hon. Sir D. McLean, Mr. Eolleston, Mr. O'Neill, Mr. Sheeban, Mr. Eeid, Mr. Thomson. Mr. Dignan, M.H.E., in attendance, and examined on oath. Mr. W. H. Grace in attendance, and examined on oath. Mr. Mackay was present during the examination of Mr. Grace. Resolved, on motion of Mr. Sheehan, That the Committee do adjourn till "Wednesday, 15th September, at 11 o'clock. The Committee then adjourned.

"Weditesday, 15th Septembee, 1875. The Committee met pursuant to notice at half-past 11 o'clock. Peesent: Sir G. Grey in the Chair. Mr. Bradshaw, Mr. Eolleston, Hon. Sir D. McLean, Mr. Sheehan, Mr. O'Neill, Mr. Thomson. Mr. Eichmond, The minutes of previous meeting read and confirmed. Order of reference dated Bth September read. Mr. Wilkinson's report with reference to the Tairua reserve put in by Sir George Grey, and read. Resolved, on motion of Mr. Eolleston, That the Committee do adjourn till Thursday, 16th September, at half-past 10 o'clock. The Committee then adjourned.

Thuesday, 16th Septembee, 1875. The Committee met pursuant to notice at half-past 10 o'clock. Pbesent: Sir G. Grey in the Chair. Hon. Sir D. McLean, Mr. Eolleston, Mr. O'Neill, Mr. Sheehan, Mr. Eichmond Mr. Thomson. The minutes of previous meeting read and confirmed. Mr. Dalton in attendance, and examined on oath. Colonel McDonnell in attendance, by permission, in order to cross-examine Mr. Dalton. Resolved, on motion of Mr. Bradshaw, That the Committee do adjourn till Friday, 17th September, at half-past 10 o'clock. The Committee then adjourned.

Feiday, 17th Septembee, 1875. The meeting of the Committee was adjourned from half-past 10 till half-past 11 o'clock, by order of the Chairman. The Committee met at half-past 11 o'clock. Pbesent: Sir G. Grey in the Chair. Mr. Sheehan, Mr. Thomson. And there being no quorum, the Committee adjourned till Tuesday, 21st September, at 11 o'clock.

Tuesday, 21st September, 1875. The Committee met pursuant to notice at 11 o'clock. Peesent: Sir G. Grey in the Chair. Mr. O'Neill, Mr. Sheehan, Mr. Eeid, Mr. Thomson. Mr. Eolleston, The minutes of previous meeting read and confirmed. Mr. Grace in attendance, and further examined on oath. Resolved, on motion of Mr. Sheehan, That the Committee do adjourn till Thursday, 23rd September, at 11 o'clock. The Committee then adjourned. lI.—I. 1.

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Thursday, 23bd September, 1875. The Committee met pursuant to notice at half-past 11 o'clock. Pbesent: Sir G. Grey in the Chair. Mr. O'Neill, Mr. Sheehan, Mr. Richmond, Mr. Thomson. Mr. Rolleston, The minutes of previous meeting read and confirmed. Mr. O'Halloran in attendance, and examined on oath. The Hon. Sir D. McLean in attendance, and examined on oath. The Committee then adjourned sine die.

Monday, 27th Septembeb, 1875. The Committee met pursuant to notice at 11 o'clock. Present: Sir G. Grey in the Chair. Hon. Major Atkinson, Mr. Reid, Mr. Bradshaw, Mr. Rolleston, Hon. Sir D. McLean, Mr. Sheehan, Mr. O'Neill, Mr. Thomson. The minutes of previous meeting read and confirmed. The Hon. Sir D. McLean handed in a letter addressed to himself from Colonel McDonnell, beingthe same that was alluded to in the evidence of the latter as the one he had laid on the Hon. Sir D. McLean's table in Auckland. The Hon. Sir D. McLean made a short statement about the letter. Resolved, on motion of Mr. Rolleston, That the Committee proceed to consider their Report as to the Tairua block, with a view to such Report being brought before the House as soon as possible. Resolved, on the motion of the Hon. Sir D. McLean, That the Chairman be requested to draw up a preliminary draft Report as to the Tairua block. Resolved, on motion of Mr. Thomson, That, in reference to the application of Mr. Brissenden to be allowed to appear before the Committee to examine and cross-question witnesses, this Committee is o£ opinion that Mr. Brissenden be allowed, in the presence of the Clerk, to see the evidence referring to him, and that he can make such statement thereon in writing as he may think necessary. Resolved, on motion of Mr. Bradshaw, That the same privilege be allowed to Mr. Mackay. The Committee then adjourned sine die.

Thursday, 30th Septembee, 1875. The Committee met pursuant to notice at 11 o'clock. Present: Sir G. Grey in the Chair. Hon. Major Atkinson, Mr. Reid, Mr. Bradshaw, Mr. Rolleston, Hon. Sir D. McLean, Mr. Sheehan, Mr. O'Neill, Mr. Thomson. The minutes of previous meeting read and confirmed. Letter from Colonel McDonnell to the Chairman read. The Hon. Sir D. McLean in attendance, and further examined. Colonel McDonnell in attendance, and further examined on oath. Resolved, on motion of the Hon. Major Atkinson, That both Mr. Brissenden and Mr. Mackay be allowed to have a copy of the evidence. The Committee then adjourned sine die.

Thubsdat, 7th October, 1875. The Committee met pursuant to notice at balf-past 11 o'clock. Peesekt : Sir G. Grey in the Chair. Hon. Major Atkinson, Mr. Richmond, Mr. Bradshaw, Mr. Rolleston, Hon. Sir D. McLean, Mr. Sheehan, Mr. O'Neill, Mr. Thomson. Mr. Eeid, The minutes of previous meeting read and confirmed. Draft Report considered. Resolved, on motion of Mr. Sheehan, That the Committee do adjourn till Friday, Bth October, at 11 o'clock. The Committee then adjourned.

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Fbidat, Bth Octobee, 1875. The Committee met pursuant to notice at 11 o'clock. Pbesent : Sir G. Grey in the Chair. Hon. Major Atkinson, Mr. Richmond, Mr. Bradshaw, Mr. Rolleston, Hon. Sir D. McLean, Mr. Sheehan, Mr. O'Neill, Mr. Thomson. Mr. Reid, The minutes of previous meeting read and confirmed. Mr. Dalton in attendance, and further examined on oath. Mr. Brissenden in attendance, and sworn as to the truth of the contents of his statement. Mr. Mackay in attendance, and further examined on oath. The Committee then resumed the consideration of the Report. Resolved, on motion of Mr. Sheehan, That the Committee do adjourn till Saturday, 9th October, at 11 o'clock. The Committee then adjourned.

Sattjbday, 9th Octobeb, 1875. The Committee met pursuant to notice at 11 o'clock. Pbesent: Sir G. Grey in the Chair. Mr. Bradshaw, Mr. Eichmond, Hon. Sir D. McLean, Mr. Rolleston, Mr. O'Neill, Mr. Thomson. Mr. Reid, The minutes of previous meeting read and confirmed. The Committee resumed consideration of Report. Resolved, on motion of Mr. Sheehan, That the following be added to the Report:—" The Committee are of opinion that the purchase or leasing of Native lands, directly or indirectly, to their own interest or advantage, or for other persons, by Government officers or agents whose duty it is to purchase Native lands for the public, is contrary to the public interest; and that it should be an instruction to persons employed in the Land Purchase Department to refrain, on pain of dismissal from the Public Service, from being concerned in such transactions in the future." Resolved, on motion of Mr. Sheehan, That the Report be adopted, and that the Chairman be instructed to present the same to the House at its next sitting, and to move that the Report and the evidence taken be printed. The Committee then adjourned.

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Thursday, 12th August, 1875. Mr. James Mackay examined on oath. 1. The Chairman.'] Did you purchase the Tairua block for the Government ?—Tes. 2. Do you recollect the date ? —I am not quite certain. Some time in December, 1872. It will be found on referring to my report. It might be on the 6th or 7th of December, 1872. 3. Was a lease executed by the Natives for the timber over that block of land on the day before you purchased it ? —Tes. 4. "Was the lease to Messrs. Seccombe and Company ? —To Messrs. Seccombe and Son. 5. Had you any interest, direct or indirect, with Messrs. Seccombe ? —No, except what I had as their agent. In my report to Mr. Ormond of the 24th of January, 1872,1 stated that the timber had been acquired by Seccombe and Son. 6. Did Seccombe and Son soon after sell the timber lease to Messrs Preece and Graham ?—I believe they did. 7. Had you any interest, direct or indirect, with Messrs. Preece and Graham ?—None whatever, except that I had lent Mr. Preece some money, which I afterwards got back. 8. "What was the sum of money ?—£4oo or £450. They wanted me to take an interest, but I declined. 9. "Was the money lent when they began to make the purchase ? —I do not know what they did with it—whether part of it might be to enable them to make the purchase ; I had no share in the timber. They wanted me to become a partner in the timber if they got it. 10. How long was the lease for ? —The original agreement was for as long as they chose to cut, but the lease was limited to forty years. It might be forty or forty-five years. 11. Did you try to sell Seccombe's lease to any other persons ?—When I was acting as Seccombe's agent, I was asked to sell to Brogden and Sons. I was Seccombe's agent for surveying the block and getting a title. I stipulated with Mr. Ormond, when the Government asked me to purchase land, that I could not sacrifice the interest of my clients. Mr. Ormond said that he did not expect me to do so. I had to state in my report the position of the timber on the blocks ; that is, whether it had been alienated; and then an arrangement was made as to the purchase. That was why the report of 24th January, 1872, was written. 12. When you were trying to sell for Messrs. Seccombe and Son, did you state that the timber they had the right to would be cut in five years ? —I think not. On the contrary, I think I could find a telegram of Seccombe, addressed to me at Wellington, in which it is stated that there would be fifty years' cutting. 13. You did not telegraph to anybody to say that Seccombe had said five years. —I do not think so. At the time I was selling to Brogden I did not know much about it; and I telegraphed to Seccombe, asking him how many years' cutting there would be, and I think he told me fifty years. 14. I have seen a telegram with your name, in which it is said that five years is the time.—That might be. That has nothing to do with the question. The Native agreement with Seccombe for the timber is until it is all cut. I might have done so under instructions from Mr. Seccombe. 15. In the case of the Hihi and Piraunui blocks, did you purchase these from the Natives on the 21st September, 1872 ? —I cannot say the exact date when they were purchased. It is probably mentioned in the report of 24th March, 1873. It might possibly be September. Ido not recollect the date of these deeds. 16. On the day before the purchase of that block, was a lease of the timber and incidental rights for ninety-nine years given by the Natives to Messrs. Russell, Stone, and Wilson ? —Tes. 17. Then the Opango block —did you purchase that on the 24th of August, 1872, or about that date ? —Tes, about that date. 18. On the 29th of July was the lease of the timber and incidental rights given by the Natives to the same gentlemen ?—I believe so. 19. Did you receive any money from them for these timber leases—from Messrs. Russell, Wilson, and Stone, or any of them ? —They were originally my own purchases. I bought that timber and transferred it to them. 20. What did you sell to them for?—l got £100 over and above what I had paid to the Natives. 21. What was the sum paid to the Natives? —I paid the Natives £500. They paid the Natives £1,000 more. They carried out my original agreement for the Waiwhakaurunga and Opango blocks. I did not get anything for Hihi and Piraunui; I had not paid any money to signify on Hihi and Piraunui. I transferred to them before 1 had anything to do with the Government land purchases. I had nothing to do with the Government between 1869 and when I commenced to buy land in 1872. 22. Why was not mention made in the lease that you were the real person that sold to them ?—I suppose that nobody had anything to do with my private transactions when I was not purchasing land for the Government. Between the 31st July, 1869, and the time when I undertook to buy for the Government, I had as much right to buy timber as any other of Her Majesty's subjects, and therefore had a right to transfer. I transferred before I had anything to do with purchasing land. I had no personal interest when Mr. Russell and the others acquired the lease. 23. Why was it stated that the Natives were the real sellers ? —Because the agreement had only been made, and I had not paid the balance of the purchase money to the Natives. They (Russell and others) were the actual purchasers. I—l. 1.

Mr. Mackay.

12th Aug., 1875,

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

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24. Mr. Rolleston.~\ You sold an inchoate agreement to them?— Exactly so. 25. The Chair man.~\ Have you any copy of the agreement ?—I did no.t keep any copy. I handed it; to them. I gave over all the documents to the parties. I stated in my report that the timber on Whakairi and Kauaeranga had been purchased by a company. (Whakairi and Waiwhakaurunga are the same.) 26. The 7th of December, 1872, I believe is the date on which you bought the Tairua block from . the Natives ?—Tea. 27. When the block was purchased, was a reserve of 1,000 acres made for the Natives ?—When I first entered into negotiations for the purchase of the Tairua block, the Natives said they would take £3,000. No mention was made of a reserve. I had the deed drawn up with a reservation of the timber only. When the Natives came to sign it, they said they wanted a reserve of 2,000 acres, or they wanted £100 for every thousand acres, which would be £3,600, and they would not sign the deed unless I agreed to one or other of these demands. I said I would agree to give them a reserve of 1,000 acres, but that I should deduct £100, making £2,900 instead of £3,000. I said I would make a memorandum that they should get a reserve of 1,000 acres. They were not 'satisfied with the memorandum, and I indorsed it on the back of the deed. The memorandum stated that the conveyance was subject to a reserve of 1,000 acres, and that the selection of that reserve was to be made within three months. The reason why I limited the time was because Mathew Barry had found gold there, and I thought it might be opened as a gold field, and that the Natives should not be allowed to select in any way they liked on the block. I was ill in March, and could not attend to it, and in April the Government asked me to go to Waikato, and consequently the reserve was not laid off. These are the circumstances under which the reserve was made. That indorsement was made on the deed before any of the Natives signed it. 28. When did you first report to the Government that the reserve was made?—On the 24th March, 1873, as will be seen by my report. 29. Was Mr. Guilding your interpreter at the time ? Mr; Guilding was there, and Mr. Preece, and Mr. O'Halloran, and several others. 30. They all knew this reserve was made ? Yes, perfectly. ' 31. When was the reserve first selected;? It was stated at the time that they might require it in two blocks; the largest portion at their old cultivations at Pukiore, and the other outside. 32. When did you select the particular block ? I had not the leave to select. The Natives were to select it. 33. When did they select it ? —ln May last I sent Mr. O'Halloran and Mr. Guilding to Mercury Bay to get some signatures to a deed. The Natives made a request that it should be surveyed, and I gave directions to Mr. Guilding to go there with a surveyor and to survey the reserve. 34. That was in May last, after the proclamation of the gold fields ? —lt became necessary, as the ground near there was being worked. The Natives asked me to have it laid off, and accordingly I sent over to have it done. Mr. Guilding's report was on the 16th of June. 35. When did you report to the Provincial Government that this particular piece of land had been reserved ? —I have nothing to do with the Provincial Government in the matter. I act under the orders of the General Government. I certainly should not report to the Provincial Government. I should report to the General Government. I offered to give you any information, but you declined to receive it. 36. That was long after ?—Hot very long after, I think. It was as soon as I arrived in Auckland. I only arrived on the 23rd or 24th of June. I was here and at Nelson on account of the death of my father. The survey of the reserve was duly completed according to my interpreter on the 16th. I arrived at Auckland on the 23rd June, when I received this telegram from Dr. Pollen. (Eead telegram in papers marked B.) I then communicated with you at Grahamstown. On the 22nd June Dr. Pollen telegraphed to me, but it did not reach me till the 25th, when I immediately telegraphed to you as follows: (Copy of telegram read in papers B.) Other correspondence passed which I now hand to the Committee. On the 29th June I received a reply that you thought it desirable under present circumstances to communicate direct with the General Government. 37. AVhen did you report to the General Government that this particular reserve had been made ? —The Government knew it was made, as it was stated in my report of the 24th March, 1873. It was also excluded from the Proclamation of the Tairua block, under the Hauraki Gold Mining Districts Act, on the Bth or 9th of April. 38. That particular block ? —I,OOO acres. I have acquainted the Government that it has been surveyed. I acquainted them verbally with it as soon as I saw Sir Donald McLean. 39. When was that ?—About the time all this telegraphing was going on respecting the Tairua question. I made a communication on the 17th of July. That was after the question had been raised by your Honor. I think I informed Sir Donald McLean personally about the 11th or 12th of June. It was a matter of faith with the Natives. 40. Are you aware that the Provincial Government thought that the best town site on the block ? —I am not aware of the thoughts of others. 41. When were you aware that your interpreter was about to lease that particular block of land ? —When your Honor first charged me with it. 42. You did not know it before ? No. I telegraphed to him when I first saw the charge in one of the Thames papers, and asked him if he had anything to do with it, and I got this answer. The day after I arrived in Auckland I heard that your Honor had made a statement that I had a lease of the reserve, and I also saw it stated that I had fixed on it as a site for a township. I telegraphed to Mr. Guildiug and Mr. O'Halloran, asking whether they had any lease. I got the following answers : — " Have not got lease of Tairua reserve, but Natives have asked me to lease it. Do not see why I should not take it, as Jackson, of Tairua, will if I do not; besides which they owe me money." Mr. O'Halloran telegraphed, — "• Plan of Tairua reserve will be forwarded to-morrow to LaDd Court. Reserve has been surveyed at urgent request of Natives. Am not aware of any one having obtained lease. Natives have repeatedly asked me to lease reserve." On the 26th Mr Guilding telegraphed,—

Mr. Mackay.

12th Aug., 1875.

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" I have no lease of Tairua reserve, but have promise of one from Natives, and have paid money to them, and have got receipts on. account of rent. Do not see why I should not take it." Another private telegram was sent to me in Auckland as follows: —" Grace in Auckland to put injunction on 1 Tairua claim for Natives. Tookey told me. Tookey also says letters in Thames papers, re Block 27, Hikutaia, &c, are his dictation, and written by Grace. He also says he is Grey's mainstay, and supplies him with all information. Taipari wants Tookey, Grace, and himself to work together. Tookey also says that if I will give you up, that he will telegraph to Grey that he was mistaken, and that I have nothing to do with you, and for him to give up all objections to my lease re Tairua reserve." I answered, " Thanks for your honorable conduct in the matter. Try and get Tookey to commit himself to writing. Have you any objection to my letting the General Government have a copy of your telegram? " Mr. Guilding telegraphed, —"Will try and get him to commit himself to writing. No objection to your letting General Government have copy. Tautoru anxious to. see you re Pakirarahi." 43. Mr. Guilding having been a party to the original purchase of the Tairua Block ?—lt was a conveyance from the Natives to the Crown. Guilding was not a party to the conveyance. 44. His name appears as a witness ?—Yes. 45. And having therefore the knowledge that 1,000 acres had been reserved, and having the knowledge that this particular block had been taken, which is certainly the best town site there, the General Government and the Provincial Government having no knowledge that such a particular block was taken, is it, in your opinion, right that he should have used his official knowledge to try to secure that for himself?—l do not think that Mr. Guilding had any more special knowledge than the whole public. It is stated in a public document, published in the Blue Book, that the Natives had the right to select 1,000 acres in one or two blocks. 46. It is not so in specified blocks ? —Everybody knew it as well as Mr. Guilding. 47. That is no answer. That was not in reference to particular blocks ? —The largest portion of the reserve was to be made at a Native cultivation called Pukiore, and the other at a tapu outside, or at some other place. The block is selected in the places where it was originally intended to be, which can be procured, if necessary, by Mr. Preece, Mr. Guilding, Mr. O'Halloran, and several others, who were present when the deed was signed. 48. Where is it shown that the public had knowledge that that block was to be taken ? —I cannot say. The Natives knew very well. 49. lam speaking of the Governments. The Provincial Government, which owned the land, did not know. —I made the arrangement for the General Government. If the General Government have made a mistake in not informing the Provincial Government, lam not answerable for that. I did my duty. ■ 50. That is no answer to my question, as to whether it was a proper transaction.—l do not see anything improper in it. It was perfectly understood that there was to be a reserve of 1,000 acres. It is frequently done when private individuals buy, that so many acres are conveyed back. [It saves covenant to produce title deeds being recited in the conveyance, and gives both parties clear title.] If the block had been selected in places other than the Natives first said, there might have been objection ; but Ido not see anything improper in carrying out a distinct arrangement. [A private person would have made a reconveyance of the 1,000 acres. I could not make a reconveyance, not having the power to issue a Crown Grant.] 51. If that arrangement was made, why was it not stated at the time ? —For this reason. We all intended to carry the thing out in good faith. I did not trouble about it, thinking there was no difficulty. It was settled that there was to be a reserve of 1,000 acres to be fixed. The.endorsement stated that the conveyance was subject to a grant to the Natives of 1,000 acres. 52. Did you purchase also for the Government some blocks of land at Hikutaia ? —I did. 53. Was a Native reserve kept there ? —No, not within the blocks purchased. 54. Did you lease a block from the Natives ?—I and others leased a block, but no portion of what I purchased from the Government ; no portion of any reserve. 55. It was not kept by the Natives ?■ —The Native Land Court made certain land inalienable, and when they sold Hikutaia and Whangamata, I, with some other parties, did lease the inalienable block, which was altogether outside and distinct from the blocks sold to the Government. Hikutaia No. 1 and Whangamata Nos. 2 and 4 were made inalienable by the Court, except on lease for twenty-one years. The Hikutaia No. 1 block formed no part of the purchase, and had never been the subject of negotiations. 56. Did you offer that for sale as a town site ?—I and others did. I had as much right to lease as any other person. The Government had a town site in another place, which I laid out for Mr. Gillies, who was then Superintendent. Both the Superintendent and Dr. Pollen were aware that I, with others, had a lease of the block which was inalienable, and whicli the Government could not purchase. It was made inalienable for Native residence. Everybody kne.w; it was made inalienable in open Court. It was no portion of the land I had to negotiate for the Crown. 57. Did you, on the Bth of April, report to the Government that 45 lbs. of stone from Tairua had yielded 50 ounces of gold ? —Tes ; I was told so. 58. Was the Tairua proclaimed a gold field on the same date ?—I do not know whether it was the same date. The first intimation of the Proclamation I received was on the 9th/ I am not sure on what date I reported what I had heard about the gold. 59. Is this a true extract from a telegram of yours : —" Referring to Sir G. Grey's telegram respecting the shares in the Tairua Claim, the conversation related by Mr. Graham did take place with me, except that I did not say Mr. O'Halioran was a Government officer, which would have been incorrect. I said I would not accept any share in the claim, and objected to O'HaUoran's doing so, as he was connected with me by marriage. 1 suggested Graham might give ittoCrippen, who had been a faithful servant of mine. Graham said, 'All right; we were always friendly with the Meurants ;' and then gave it to Crippen. I have no interest in the claim direct or indirect. I may mention, for your information, that this communication took place months after the application to (Sir Donald McLean,

Mr. Madkay. 12th Aug., 1875.

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and subsequent to the Proclamation of the field. I assume Sir G. Grey wishes the Government to believe that I recommended the granting of a prospector's claim on consideration of getting an interest ■ in it. If Sir George Grey would kindly make inquiry, he would find that I had frequently refused similar offers of shares in claims."—That is correct. I wrote it. 60. Was Mr. Crippen your clerk? —He has been my clerk on and off at various times. 61. Do you know if he has sold shares subsequently ? —I do not know anything of what he has done subsequently, and do not care. 62. Mr. BoUeston.] "What was the effect of this lease of timber at Tairua ?—The timber was leased with the necessary easements for taking it out, such as right of road and the use of the water. 63. Was the land presumed to be valuable for anything but mining ? Did not Messrs. Eussell, Wilson, and Stone get all that was deemed of value in this block ?—These lands are valuable, as gold has been found through the whole of them. The leases do not interfere wth the right to mine. 64. At the time when you made the arrangement with Mr. Ormond to act as Land Purchase Agent for the General Government, had the Government the power to proclaim the land, cutting off the rights of Mr. Russell and the other parties ? —The Proclamation was not issued till October, 1872, subsequent to my agreement. I believe these Proclamations have no force over lands which have passed through the Native Land Court, but only over lands over which the Native title has not been extinguished. 65. These lands had not gone through at the time you were negotiating ?—In the Tairua case, I think the rights of Seccombe under the last lease would be acquired after the proclamation of the district uuder the Public Works Act. I found that several Europeans were trying to negotiate for the land I was instructed to purchase, and I asked whether the Government would proclaim a certain portion under the Act; they agreed to do so. There was great discontent because the flat lands at the Thames had been included, and the Government were requested to withdraw it from these lands ; they did so, and the line was taken along the base of the hills. These blocks would come within that Proclamation. Some of them had passed through the Native Land Court before the Proclamation, and others had not. The piece over which Mr. Eussell and others have the lease was passed through previous to the Proclamation, if I recollect rightly. 66. Does the Proclamation affect the timber. Can people get from the Natives leases of the timber, with the easements, in spite of that Proclamation ?—I should say not, provided there had been no previous arrangement. This agreement of Seccombe's was made on the 18th March, 1S64 (copy of agreement handed to Committee), so that they had the timber long before the Government proposed to deal with the land. I declined to purchase any land for the Government, unless the interests of the millowners, which I consider very great, were conserved. I should have been guilty of a breach of faith to men who had employed me as their agent if I had not done that. (Mr. Mackay read to the Committee a report of his, dated the 17th July, 1875, C. 3a, in which he shows the value of the interests of the millowners.) 67. Who was in negotiation for the flat lands, and what has become of them ? —They have since been included. Private persons wished to acquire them, and public meetings were held at the Thames to get them withdrawn from proclamation. Since then a Proclamation has been issued, including not only these but a larger area. 68. Is Mr. Guilding a paid officer of the General Government ? —No, he never has been. I pay my officers and clerks out of my commission. I am paid by commission. I am not a salaried officer. 69. What is Mr. Crippen's office ? —He is a private clerk. It costs me more than £1,000 a year for clerks, interpreters, and agents. 70. Mr. O Neill.] Have you a miner's right for the Thames Gold Field or Ohinemuri?—I am not the holder of a miner's right. 71. Mr. Thomson.] It appears the lease to Preece and Graham was dated only a day before the land was bought ? —Yes; to Seccombe and Son. 72. Was the Government acquainted with this ? —The Government was acquainted generally with the fact that these people had rights over the timber before I went to purchase at all. I stated distinctly the position of each block, and whether the timber was alienated or not. (Mr. Mackay read extracts from letter sent by him to Mr. Ormond, 24th January, 1872, and Mr. Ormond's reply.) 73. It would appear that these interests to which you refer were interests connected with the sawmills ? —Yes. 74. Do you consider that these interests could not have been easily acquired by the Crown, as they appear to interfere with the value of the block. Could the Government not have bought out these saw-mill owners?—(Mr. Mackay read figures from a return made up by him to show the extent of the saw-mill industry.) He proceeded: This lease was only in confirmation of an agreement made before, and to make the title of the Crown clear. The previous right was to cut for ever. (Witness referred to copy of original agreement.) I do not think the Government would have been able to get the land so cheap had not the timber been sold. 75. The Chairman.] How much did Preece and Graham give for this lease ?—I forget. £5,000 or £6,000. Seccombe had wanted to sell it for a long time. 76. Mr. Bolleston.] Do you consider that the lease to Seccombe was legal ? —I think it would have been an unjust act for the Government to have attempted to take a conveyance without acknowledging Seccombe's right. Mr. Munro, who is now a Judge of the Native Land Court, was the person who witnessed the agreement, and the money was paid in the Native Office in Auckland in the presence of Dr. Shortland, before the colony had accepted responsibility in Native affairs. 77. Ihe Chairman.] Is the lease lawful ? —That lease was not lawful at the time. There were several others in the same position, and, indeed, all the saw-mills. These agreements have been in a manner legalized by the 108th section of " The Native Lands Act, 1873," which states that whereas agreements have been made by private persons for the purchase of timber, flax, and other natural productions growing on Native lands, and that although such agreements were not strictly legal they shall be confirmed by the Court for a period not exceeding twenty-five years. 78. Mr. Thomson.] Did you take any part in the negotiations between Preece and Graham and Seccombe and Son ? Did Preece and Graham purchase these forest rights from Seccombe and Son through

Mr. Mackay.

12th Aug., 1875,

5

I.—l.

you ?—No, they partly talked over the matter themselves. I had some conversations with Seecombe about it. I was his agent from 1869 up to the time I was employed by the Government. Mr. Seccombe's case was one of those to which I drew Mr. Ormond's attention. 79. Mr. Solleston.] I am not asking whether this agreement was just, or calling in question your position, but I wish to know what has been the course of the Government from the first. Was this agreement made with the sanction of the Government ?—The agreement was drawn up and signed in the Native Office in Auckland. 80. The Government has been persistent in a long course of years in acting without any law at all ?—lt became a custom ; everybody bought timber, and I believe the Government winked at it. The Government could not enforce the law ; the people must have timber. Until " The Native Lands Act, 1873," such transactions were not recognized by law. I should say the dealings were illegal, except where the lands were held under Crown grant. 81. It was in 1872 that this arrangement in which Mr. Eussell and others are concerned was made ?—No ; it was made in 1868 or 1869. Mr. Russell's agreement was made before the land went through the Court. 82. Mr. Thomson.'] I have a question to ask respecting Mr. Crippen. You say you are not a salaried officer of the Government. Do you do work for private persons ? —I do not work for any private persons now. I have not taken in any new work since I commenced to purchase for the Government. 83. Tou say that your clerks' expenses amount to £1,000 a year ?—Tes. In addition I frequently share my commission with others whom I employ to assist me. I shared a large amount with Messrs. Preece and Graham for assisting me. 84. The business of your office must be altogether connected with Government business ? —I do not transact business for private persons. The other day Mr. Firth came to me and said he wanted a signature procured to a deed, and offered me £100 to get it. I said I did not take any private work, as I had been accused of various things. I said if I saw the Native I would ask him to sign, as he said he would deal only with me, but I would take no remuneration. 85. Under these circumstances, are you justified in speaking of Mr Crippen as your private clerk ? —He is paid by me privately, not by the Government. 86. Tou say his work is altogether connected with the Government ?—I am in the same position as any private land agent employed by the Government to buy certain lands. Certain limits are made as to price, and of course I purchase within these limits. The Government do not interfere with me whilst making these purchases. 87. But you objected to take an interest in this claim on the grounds that your position might be prejudiced ?—Tes, because in that question I was acting as Agent for the Government. I was not acting in my capacity as a land-purchase agent when dealing with the Tairua affair. 88. Do you not think that Mr. Crippen was open to the same objection as yourself?—No, because he was not my clerk as Agent for the General Government. I have never charged the Government for clerical assistance in my office at the Thames. 89. Do you think that young men placed in that position, being really to all intents and purposes Government clerks doing Government work, and at the same time acting as private clerks, have advantages in becoming acquainted with the Government proceedings, at the same time that they are in the position of private individuals ?—They very seldom know what I am doing for the Government as their agent. I sometimes occupy two positions. When acting as Agent for the Government lam not transacting land-purchase work. When I buy a block of land there are probably a number of signatures to be obtained, and I leave my clerks in the office to get the signatures, or to pay to the Natives their share of the money. They do that sort of work, as my business takes me all over the country. I was fourteen months Government Agent in the Waikato, and during that time Mr. Crippen was one of my clerks ;he was then paid by the Government. When I left he became one of my clerks, paid by me out of commission. At the time the Tairua block was proclaimed, I was asked to act for a few months as Agent for the Government, which I did. 90. lam referring to the share given to him in this gold mine ? —I do not know whether you have been acquainted with gold mining; but diggers have a habit when they find a claim, of behaving like men-of-war's men who have just been paid off, giving shares to Tom, Dick, and Harry. I have frequently, between 1869 and 1872, had my name put down for shares in mines when I knew nothing of it. 91. The Chairman.] When this share was offered to you, you were sitting in your office as General Government Agent ? —I do not know whether it was offered to me in my office. It was offered me two or three times, and I think once in the Pacific Hotel, and once in the street. It might have been offered in my office. 92. Mr. Graham said it was in the office that he waited upon you. It was offered to you as Agent for the General Government ?—No, not as General Government Agent, but when I was acting as Government Agent. 93. Tou knew it was very valuable ? —I did not know it was particularly valuable. I have been bitten so often about mines, that I have little faith in things of that sort. 94. Did you not think it became any agent of the General Government, when such an offer was made to him, to ask the gentleman making it to walk out of the office ?—lt was not offered to me as a bribe. I was simply asked to take a share in a claim. Anything I had done about the prospector's claim, had been done long before. Sir D. McLean had told me to tell these people they would get a claim. I was once offered a share in Hunt's claim, which was worth £26,000, and refused it. 95. Did the shares being offered not leave upon your mind the impression that a wrong state of affairs was likely to spring up ?—No. Miners ask a man to take a share —especially if they think he is a man of influence—and think that it adds to the value of a claim. People seeing my name amongst the shareholders would say that it must be a good claim. 96. I was asking about the General Government Agent, who had great powers in this case ?— Well, I declined it. 2

Mr. Mackay.

12th Aug., 1875,

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Mr. Mackay.

97. It was given by you to your clerk ? —No, it was not. I deny that. I said, " You can give it to him." What harm was there in that ? It was simply doing him a good turn. 98. I have a difficulty in knowing how it was determined when you were acting as private agent, and when as a Government officer. Were you always General Government Agent?—No, only at times when I was specially appointed. 99. Are the dates of the appointments and of the cancelling to be found ?■ —I was asked to take charge of Ohinemuri, I think, on the Ist March. That has not been cancelled yet. Ido not act unless lam told to do some particular duty. I was the officer who arranged the confiscated lands in* Waikato, and I have also had a great deal to do with Tauranga, and the Government have frequently asked me to undertake special work on account of my knowledge of those questions. I have undertaken it in some instances at great personal loss. When I went to Waikato, negotiations which. I had nearly completed for purchase of land before I went, had on my return all to be done over again. 100. Mr. Rolleston.] At the time you went to Waikato, it was thoroughly understood between yourself and the Government that you were entitled to continue negotiations you had in your hands as a private agent r —Decidedly. I was independent so far as land purchase was concerned. 101. It did not preclude your purchasing for private individuals? —I have bought no land for private persons since I acted for the Government. I have constantly declined. Mr. Buckland, Mr. .Firth, and Mr. Morrin have asked me to take land work. I refused to take anything new. When I made the arrangement with Mr. Ormond I was engaged in negotiations for private persons, and I would have rendered myself liable to actions if I had not carried them out. I distinctly stipulated about these things before I would buy land for the Government. 102. Hon. Sir D. McLean.] In reference to the question put by Mr. Eolleston as to these agreements being sanctioned, had the land in some cases passed through the Court ?—All the Mercury Bay land had passed through the Court, and many private individuals had leases of timber before I got instructions. 103. Having these completed leases, of course private individuals might have obtained these lands if they wished ? —Yes. 104. When were these equitable leases taken iip ?—I can hardly say when. I fancy that some of the Mercury Bay saw-mills leases were in 1868, 1869, 1870, and 1871. Nearly all the blocks were surveyed by the millowners. 105. Was there much pressure brought to bear on the Government to acquire these lands for gold mining, notwithstanding the existence of these leases ? —There was great pressure brought to bear by the public and the Superintendent constantly. Public meetings were held, and the Government were called upon to purchase. I think these purchases were advantageous. I know that nearly all the land is auriferous, and will become valuable for gold mining. I think the Government have got the lands very cheap. I have got land for 2s. 6d. for which private individuals would give ss. I have bought some land for 35., land alongside of which has been sold for 15s. A company was about to purchase a large extent of land on this Coromandel Peninsula, and were prepared to go to a much larger price than it was subsequently acquired for by the Government. I was negotiating, in partnership with Captain Daldy, for the purchase of the Waikawau block of 00,000 acres, and he would have gone to ss. an acre. In addition to that, I was asked to join a number of persons, some of them at Coromandel, amongst them Mr. Thomas, of an English gold mining company. These men would have found a large amount of money. I believe that this was one of the reasons why pressure was brought by the Superintendent to employ me. 106. Mr. BoUeston.] Would it have made much difference in occupation of the land whether it went into the hands of private persons ?—lt would not have been opened for gold mining. It did not all come under the gold-mining agreements. 107. Mr. O'Neill.] Have Preece and Graham much land at Coromandel?—Old Mr. Preece had a piece there when Mr. Williamson took possession under the mortgage. A piece of about 20 acres was left to him, on which he resided until his death, and on which Mr. J. W. Preece's mother now lives. There is a freehold of 150 acres at the mill site at Tairua, which Mr. Seccombe had passed through the Native Land Court in 1866, I think. 108. Mr. Eolleston.] All this difficulty has arisen from the abandonment of the original Native Lands Court Act, and going in for purchase by the Government ?—I am not aware.

12th Aug., 1875,

Fbibat, 13th August, 1875. Mr. James Mackay further examined on oath. 109. Son. Major Atkinson.'] I wish to ask you whether a writ was issued against you in connection with this case, and by whom ? —A writ was issued in the Supreme Court on the 10th of July last ■ against me and others. This is a copy of it. It was never served on me. There was a long declaration attached. It was removed from the Supreme Court after being submitted to the Judge. The declaration made strong allegations. 110. Mr. Rolleston.] Does the writ make any allegations itself?—(Mr. Mackay read the writ, and handed in a copy. He proceeded:) I have not got the declaration. It was removed after myself and several persons had seen it. My solicitor saw it. 111. Hon. Major Atkinson.'] I should like to know if you suffered any damage by that proceeding ? —I did ; considerable damage. It was published in the Auckland papers, and several friends came and asked me what fraud I had committed. It was alleged I had committed a fraud on the Government in the matter of the 1,000 acres reserve, had made a reserve long after the purchase, and had leased it myself. 112. Tlhe Chairman.'] Is that statement in the writ? —There were statements almost to that effect in the declaration. It was seen by myself, by Major Green, by my solicitor, and by several other people.

Mr. Mackay.

13th Aug., 1875.

7

I.—l

113. Is it true that Mr. Guilding and Mr. O'Halloran had entered into an arrangement with the jfr. Natives to take a lease of the reserve ? —I telegraphed to Mr. Guilding, and he stated that he had not. I only know of any arrangement by the telegrams which I put in to the Committee yesterday. I saw 13th . no arrangement made. 114. You say you had a telegram from Mr. Guilding, in which he stated that he had made no agreement ? —I asked him, and the telegram I put in was the answer. 115. If Mr. Guilding had completed a lease, and had proceeded to let town sites or dispose of them, would that have been a serious loss to the province ? —The province could never lose what it never possessed. It never possessed the 1,000 acres. That belonged to the Natives. 116. When did the province have notice, or the General Government, that this particular block of 1,000 acres was the property of the Natives ? —The Government never had such notice. They had notice that 1,000 acres were to be selected. 117. The particular block that Mr. Guilding took the lease of?— That is the block I always understood the Natives were to have. I informed Sir D. McLean about this reserve. 118. When was the date about of the survey?— The Natives made application on the 11th of May, 1875, to have it surveyed. They applied to me, first some time in February, 1873. I could not do it in March as 1 was ill, and I had to go to Waikato in April. 119. Did the agreement with the Natives state that the places were to be selected within three months ? —lt did, but that was a stipulation more on behalf of the Government than on behalf of the Natives. 120. Not having been selected within three months, and the whole block having been made over to the province, had the province not the ri<;;ht to dispute the selection?— Decidedly not; by no rule of law or justice. It was the delay of the Government and not of the Natives. The Government were bound to keep faith with the Natives, and would have been guilty of a breach of faith had they not done so. 121. Had the province the right to go to Court to ascertain the facts?—l think not; I think the province had no right in the matter. There was an agreement made with the Natives, and that was bound to be carried out. Some of the reserves in the Middle Island were not laid off for years after' the deeds were signed. 122. Did you in the month of April mark out or mark on the official plan of the Tairua block, in the Waste Lands Office at Auckland, another place as the site where the 1,000 acres was to be taken ? —I do not know where it was taken; I might do so. Mr. Tole might say, where is such and such a block, and I might mark out on the paper giving the information as nearly as I could. I got no application from the Government to fix the reserve. 123. Mr. Rolleston.~\ Was the purchase made on the spot ? —No ; at Shortland, under the sanction of the Superintendent and Dr. Pollen. 124. Did you, in April last, in the presence of Mr. Watters, point out a particular spot on the Tairua block as the place for this reserve ? —I might have; that "would not define it. The Natives have the right to select, not me. Casual conversations might take place, and I might make a rough sketch, but whether I put it at the right place or the wrong I cannot say. 125. Was Mr. Guilding the witness to the one final transaction in which the 1,000 acres were reserved ?—Yes, I said so yesterday. I mentioned he was there with several others. 126. And at that time the position of the reserve was understood ?—lt was not definitely fixed. They bad the right to select, and they thought the greater portion should be at Pukiore. lam not quite certain how much was to be at one place, and how much at another; it was left open. 127. The Chairman.'] You think the Government ought not to have been warned immediately where it was ? —I considered I was carrying out my instructions. It was suggested by me that these reserves should be made inalienable, and I received instructions to make them wherever necessary. 128. You think if a reserve was likely to be valuable as a town site, that the Government ought not to have known about it ? —The Natives had the right to select 1,000 acres ; it was bought subject to that. It would have been a most unjust act, and a breach of faith, not to have carried out that arrangement. 129. And your officer had a right to go and lease without the Government knowing what piece was taken ? —Anybody had a perfect right to go and lease it; the Natives have the right to lease it. 130. Witli regard to the Hikutaia block, what tribe does that belong to?—lt was disputed between Ngatipu and Ngatikaraua ; the Court made an arbitrary division of it. 131. —How many blocks did the Court give them ? —Whangamata Nos. 1, 3, and 5 were alienable ; Hikutaia Nos. 2 and 3 were alienable. The other blocks, Whangamata Nos. 2 and 4, were made inalienable by the Court; Hikutaia No. 1 was made inalienable by the Court. 132. You purchased from the Natives the Hikutaia block ?—I purchased from the Natives for the Government the Hikutaia 2 and 3, and Whangamata 1, 3, and 5 blocks. 133. You purchased the lease of one of the Hikutaia blocks for yourself ?—I with others got a lease of the block that was inalienable, or rather of a portion of it; the part the Natives did not want. 134. Did you, as a Government Agent, ask the Government before you did so ?—I was not acting as Government Agent. I was merely acting as Land Purchase Agent. I only buy the blocks lam instructed to buy. I was never instructed to buy No. 1. I could not buy what was inalienable. It was only a portion of it which was leased for township purposes. It was open for anybody else to do so. There was no fraud or wrong done to the public in the matter. 135. Then you did not consider that it was necessary for the Government to try to protect their own interests by getting the case as to the 1,000 acres inquired into by the Supreme Court ? —I considered you did me great injustice. It was a most arbitrary and unconstitutional act on your part (excuse me for saying so). The proper course would have been to complain to the Colonial Secretary, and to have asked for a Commission of inquiry into my conduct, if it was as you alleged. 136. You think that the Superintendent of the province, in going to the Supreme Court of the colony to ascertain the rights of the inhabitants of the province, acted in an unconstitutional manner ? —There was no occasion to go there. You could have been furnished with all the information, which

Mackay.

Aug., 1875,

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8

would have saved you from taking such a step. There are various ways of doing things. I consider you did me a great wrong and injustice without giving me any chance of defending myself. 137. How could I have got the information ? —I was instructed to give it to you, and you refused to take it. 138. Had you published offensive letters in the papers before that ?—I wrote one in my own defence. One does not like to be jumped upon, especially when his hands are tied by the Civil Service Regulations. But Ido not know that there was anything offensive in the letter. You made much more offensive remarks about me at Grahamstown, which were duly published and commented on by the papers. 139. Did you state yesterday that you were in no way under the provincial authorities, and would not recognize them ? —I said that I had nothing to do with them. My duty is to communicate with the General Government. Whenever I have gone to you, you must say that I have given you all the information in my power. I have been quite willing to give you any information you ask for. 140. Were you the proper channel of communication with the Superintendent, or had he the right to go to the General Government ? —I presume that the proper channel was with the General Government; but if I was instructed to give you any information I was the proper person to apply to, which would have saved trouble and unnecessary reference. 141. Mr. Boileston.] Is there any document from you to Mr. Guilding, expressing any opinion respecting his proceedings with reference to the Tairua reserve ? —No, I saw him shortly after. I said that I was vexed that he had taken it; that he ought not to have done so. I thought he ought to have asked me, as it had caused me a great deal of trouble, and had caused a writ to be issued .against me. Mr. Guilding said that he had a right to take the lease. I said I.wished he had first asked me whether I thought it was right for him to do it. 142. Mr. O'Neill.'] You state that you have no lease of timber at Tairua or Ohinemuri, of your own?— None. 143. The Chairman.'] Are you engaged in completing any purchase for Mr. Russell in the Upper Thames ? —I am engaged in buying land for the Government, a portion of which is, I believe, to go to Mr. Russell. I think that is mentioned in a report of mine, C. 3. 144. What I want to know is, you are engaged in completing that for him ?—I am buying in one block, and a portion is to go to him. 145. Mr. Rolleston.] Have you been instructed to make one purchase ?—Yes, the money would be apportioned, I assume, between Mr. Russell and the Government, according to the area he got and the Government got. He was buying the whole block, and I suggested that he should take one-half and that the Government should get the other. I wanted to get the whole Aroha range for the public, as it is likely to be auriferous. 146. It was proclaimed under the Public Works Act ?—lt has been proclaimed since (October, 1874). 147. Was this one of the arrangements you were previously engaged in for Mr. Russell ?—I never was Mr. Russell's agent in the matter at all. 148. This was not a block which you were previously negotiating for Mr. Russell? —Not at all. 149. Was it your suggestion that Mr. Russell should be allowed to prosecute some portion of this purchase with the Government ? —lt was. 150. Do you consider that these lands are bought for the Government at a cheaper rate than private individuals have to give ? —The circumstances of private and Government tmrchase are not the same. The Government buys good and bad, taking a large block, and calculates the average rate. A private individual will pick the eyes out (that is, take the choice pieces), and give more for it than the Government average rate. He may take only 500 acres or 1,000 acres of the best. 151. Could not the Government, when they entered into treaty for the land, have at once issued a Proclamation excluding Mr. Russell ? —Mr. Russell was there before the Government; they could have stopped him. 152. There was none of this negotiation done by you previously?—Mr. Russell asked me, but I declined to buy it, and he employed Preece and Graham. 153. The facts are that, notwithstanding a Proclamation securing the purchase to the Government, the Government entered into a kind of partnership purchase for the land r —Mr. Russell was negotiating for the land before the Government ever thought of purchasing it. He was buying both sides of the Thames River. I thought that one side should come to the Government, and I told Mr. Russell that if he did not agree to that I should oppose his purchase. That is how the matter came to be talked about. He said, " Would you let me go on with the west side ?" I said, " You had better apply to the Government about it." 154. The Chairman.] Would it have been possible for you to have purchased the whole block without consideration of Mr. Russell's claim ?—lf I had been instructed to do so, I dare say I could have purchased it, the same as now. It is a difficult block to purchase. 155. Then if the purchase had been made, could Mr, Russell's rights have been considered in open Court, and compensation made for any rights which might have been?—No doubt that could have been done. 156. Mr. Bolleston.] Do you think he would have any rights ?—The same as any other person under the Native Lands Act. Persons buying Native lands generally gave a deposit, and agreed to pay the expenses of survey. All Native lands are bought in that way. 157. Has not the law, as it now stands, practically done away with the operation of the Native Land Court till after purchase by the Government ? When the Government issued its Proclamation, would the Court have recognized any claim of an inchoate kind on an agreement with the Natives ?— I expect they would not, except in the case of flax or timber; Ido not think they would about the land. They would recognize a lien that a person had got for survey. Any agreement before the issue of a certificate of title or memorial of ownership would be illegal; but it has been the custom of the country to set this aside. Native lands were usually bought in the manner I have described. That was the common process.

Mr. Mackay.

13th Aug., 1875.

9

I.—l.

158. I see by your answers that you misunderstand me. After all your experience in these purchases, taking such a case as that of Mr. Russell's, would it not have been better for the Government Agent himself and for the public, that the whole of the land should have been purchased for the public by the Agent, and that then an open Court, constituted for the purpose, should have heard what Mr. Russell's claims were for consideration—if they were just, and how far—and then have dealt with his claims, rather than have thrown the responsibility upon a single individual, who was the purchaser of the land?—lt was referred to the Government, not altogether decided by me. I merely made the suggestion, which was agreed to by the Government. lam not aware of any Court which could have taken cognizance of the matter. I have always, even as a private land agent, had a great objection to buying land which other people were dealing for. I have never asked the Natives to set aside any man's bargain. It would be wrong to do such a thing for the Government, as it would cause great injustice to private individuals. 159. Whom was Mr. Russell dealing through ? Were you aware that he was engaged in actual negotiations with the Natives ?—I am aware ;he asked me to act, and I refused; and he employed Preece and Graham, and they were actually engaged in negotiations. 160. Mr. Richmond.] You stated, did you not, that he had paid money ? —He told me so. 161. The Chairman.] Would you produce a copy of your lease of the block at Hikutaia from the Natives ? —-I think it has been burned. It is given up. It was made, I believe, in Mr. Rowe's name. There were three or four people in it. I will make inquiry for it. 162. Mr. Rolleston.] Is that correspondence in reference to Mr. Russell's interest in Waiharakeke and Hungahunga on record ? —1 think so. I think there is some correspondence about it. I wrote a letter, and received one from the Government. Colonel McDonnell examined on oath: 163. The Chairman.] Have you ever had any conversation with Sir Donald McLean regarding a communication made to you by Mr. Brissenden, that he was empowered in some way to make purchases of timber leases for Mr. Vogel and Mr. Russell, and to buy land for Dr. Pollen, at the same time that he was purchasing land for the General Government ? —Tes. 164. Sir D. McLean.] When did this take place ? —ln Auckland, in January last, the 25th, in those buildings which Mr. Kemp is in. 165. Did you mention Dr. Pollen's name or Mr. Vogel's name ?—Tes. I went into the office and talked about a conversation I had had a few days previously relative to the lands handed over to Mr. Brissenden. I said I thought that there would be some difficulty in concluding those purchases. You said you were sorry to hear that, and I left. I fancied afterwards that you might have fancied that I would have put difficulties in the way, so when I came to see you to explain these difficulties, I told you, in reference to the Kairara and Tutamoi blocks, that Mr. Brissenden said he was empowered to have blocks cut out of these purchases for Mr. Russell, because of his contract, in which Mr. Vogel was concerned. IG6. These are your own views; they were not stated to me ? —This is what I stated to you as a good reason. I was expressing my opinion of Mr. Brissenden at the time I related these things to you, to let you know what he had told me. He also stated that ho was going to purchase land for Dr. Pollen, adjacent to some land that he had at Kaipara. I forget the name of the block. After I said this, something was said about the New Zealand Cross. Afterwards you said you asked me if I had any objection to put these things in writing. I said no, and I got paper and wrote to you. 167. What date was that on ?—To the best of my recollection it was on the 25th of January. 168. I never saw anything of you on the 25th of January. 169. The Chairman.] Did you deliver that letter?—l left it on Sir D. McLean's table. 170. Was he there?—No, he was not. 171. Did you keep a copy of the letter ? —I kept a sort of rough copy, which I think I have in my papers. 172. Was that the paper you read-to me?— Yes, I repeated the whole thing to Dr. Pollen what I told you (Sir D. McLean). I went to Dr. Pollen after I had seen you, and related it to him in his own office in the Government Buildings. 173. Sir D. McLean.] You related it to Dr. Pollen ?—Yes, I said to Dr. Pollen, " And he also said that you had employed him to buy land." He has made the same statement to others at Hokianga. 174. Mr. Rolleston.] I am not quite clear as to how the conversation arose with regard to Mr. Brissenden. Were you repeating a conversation of Mr. Brissenden to you ?—Yes. 175. And he stated that he was engaged to buy land for Mr. Russell ?•—He stated that he had permission to purchase timber for Mr. Russell, in consequence of his having a contract with the Admiralty. 176. What was your object for repeating this to Sir Donald McLean ?—I had an object in repeating it to Sir Donald McLean. 177. What was the object you had in view?— The object was this : I had been negotiating for the purchase of land in the North for two or three years, and I had succeeded in negotiating for a certain number of acres, when Sir Donald McLean came to Auckland. He told me that these lands I had purchased, with the exception of the Victoria Valley, were to be handed over to Mr. Brissenden to complete, and that after the Victoria Valley lands were finished there would be nothing more for me to do, aud that I had better petition the House if I thought my services were worthy of any recognition. I had previously —some time after Mr. Brissenden had been employed —certain offers made to me by Mr. Brissenden which I could not entertain, and I foresaw then that Mr. Brissenden had gained his object in getting me removed from the North. There were several things I had been the means of preventing Mr. Brissenden from doing which I considered excessively wrong, and I wished to show the state of the case, and to give him (Sir D. McLean) a good idea of how matters stood. That was my real and only object in mentioning that conversation. 178. The Chairman^] Were most of your purchases nearly completed when Mr. Brissenden went to take them up ?—None of the purchases were completed. A good many of them were surveyed. 2—l. 1.

Mr. Mackay,

13th Aug., 1875.

Col. McDonnell.

13th Aug., 1875,

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10

179. Sir D. McLean.] How many were surveyed?— There were Waopu, Pekapeka, Wairake, One Opoteka, of which the surveys had been commenced. That does not include the Victoria Valley purchases. A good many negotiations had only been waiting for surveys. The whole had been waiting for the Land Court. 180. None of them had passed through the Court ? —No ; none. 181. The Chairman.'] Were they so nearly completed that there was very little work left to do ?— There was very little work, except what might crop up at the Native Land Court. I consider that all the hard work had been finished ; such as getting the Natives together. 182. Are you aware whether any of them have been completed since ?—I believe some have. 183. Sir D. McLean.] Are you aware that Kaihu has not passed through the Court yet?— Yes. 184. The Chairman.] Was the impression on your mind that Mr. Brissenden was to get a large payment in consequence of what you had done, with little work comparatively speaking ? —Yes, I have been under that impression. 185. Did you understand from Mr. Brissenden that one particular block of timber land was to be cut out of the purchases (being made for the Government) ?—Not a particular block; simply in a general way. He told me also that I should get half the profits that would accrue to him from Mr. Russell. 186. Mr. Bolleston.] He made that offer to you; Mr. Brissenden's offers were to the effect that you should participate in the profits made from cutting out land to give to Mr. Russell ?—The offer was: He would get a certain profit—percentage —and that I should stand in with him in it. 187. And the transaction was —what ? —That certain good blocks of timber in these lands —valuable timber —should be reserved; should be cut out as reserves for the Natives ; but that, really, he should have them for Mr. Russell. 187. Who was it that Mr. Brissenden gave you to understand was in communication with him with reference to this proposal ?—I have no recollection of his stating. 188. Do you mean you have no understanding from whom the proposals to Mr. Brissenden came? —I did not understand that he was doing this with direct authority. I understood from Mr. Brissenden that he had permission to excise these blocks for himself and his friends; and he has repeated that to Mr. Webster, in my presence, about Kohukohu. He said he was allowed by the Government to excise certain blocks, and he would do so in this case. [With reference as to whether Sir D. McLean was present when I laid the letter to him on the table in his room, I wish to make a further statement.]

Col. McDonnell 13th Aug., 1875.

Son. Sir D. McLean. 18th Aug., 1875.

"Wednesday, 18th August, 1875. Hon. Sir D. McLean examined on oath. 189. The Chairman.] I wish to ask you whether Colonel McDonnell had a conversation with you, in which he told you that Mr. Brissenden had informed him that he (Mr. Brissenden) was empowered to purchase timber leases for Mr. Russell and Sir Julius Vogel, and land for Dr. Pollen ? —No, he never told me anything of the kind. 190. Did you ever desire him to put such a thing in writing ?—No ; I have been looking over the correspondence, and there is no letter of such a nature on record. 191. I wish to know whether there were any presents given to the Natives at the Thames from time to time by the Government ?—There were. 192. "Who distributed these presents ? —I do not know. The officers down there. Mr. Puckey, I suppose. 193. Had the General Government Agent anything to do in distributing them ? —I know one or two cases where he was authorized to make presents. 194. Do you think it probable that the Natives considered his clerks as being Government clerks too ?—No, Ido not think so. The Natives down there are generally intelligent. Taipari is one of them, and I think he would know the distinction. 195. Do you think they all did ? —I think most of them. I could not answer for all. 196. When the lease was signed in Mr. Mackay's presence, and Mr. Guilding acting as interpreter, and other officers as his clerks, do you think the Natives could distinguish between them and Government officers ?—The interpreter employed when the lease was signed was Mr. "Wilkinson. Mr. Guilding may have been there also. 197. His name is to it ? —He very likely was there at the same time. I understood Mr. Wilkinson was there. I understood Mr. Wilkinson was acting-interpreter. 198. Do you think they looked upon them as Government officers ?—I do not think the Natives generally would ; because Mr. Mackay had for a long time been acting for private persons, and disconnected with the Government. 199. Do you consider it a proper thing of the Government having allowed that share to be given to Mr. Crippen, when Mr. Mackay was acting as General Government Agent?—No, I do not; I do not consider it was. 200. Had he your authority to engage in this land purchase for Mr. Russell, near Te Aroha ?— He was generally acting under instructions from Dr. Pollen, who was resident in Auckland at the time arrangements were made for that block. 201. Was it you who put Mr. Brissenden in Colonel McDonnell's place to the north of Auckland ?—I did not put him in Colonel McDonnell's place. I removed Colonel McDonnell, and Mr. Brissenden was there negotiating at the time. He had been there for some time, backwards and forwards, and had entered into several negotiations. 202. Do you think that Mr. Mackay ought to have reported to the Provincial Government the particular block of land which he was going to select for the Natives on the Tairua block ?—I think he ought to have reported to the General Government, because he was an officer of theirs.

11

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203. Then he did not report to the General G-overnment about the reserve ?—He reported the reserve, but not the selection till recently —after the survey had been made. 204. After the block had been surveyed ? —Tes. 205. With regard to the timber lease of Mr. Russell on the Opango Block, which Mr. Mackay said belonged to himself formerly, do you recollect the reason that a Proclamation was issued on the 6th of September, taking that block from under the control of the province ?—I could not state the reason. I suppose there are reasons in the correspondence. I believe there is a correspondence about it. 206. May that be furnished to the Committee ? —I will look up the papers and furnish them if the Committee think it necessary. 207. Mr. Rolleston.] I should like to ask you to state the terms of the arrangement with regard to the purchase of Mr. Russell that was referred to in the examination of Mr. Mackay here ?—The terms of it are simply these: That Mr. Russell gives up the purchase on one side of the river, and on the understanding that Mr. Mackay does not interfere with him on the other side in completing a certain purchase. The land that Mr. Mackay wanted to complete the purchase of for the Government formed part of the Aroha block. Mr. Russell Was buying there, and he relinquished his claim on one side of the river, as you will find stated in Mr. Mackay's report, which has been laid upon the table. 208. The Chairman.'] Was the block which Mr. Russell was purchasing, and which now Mr. Mackay is purchasing for him, that included originally in the Proclamation issued forbidding purchases in that district ?—lt was outside the boundary that Mr. Ormond, as Minister for Public Works, had assigned to Mr. Mackay. I cannot state whether it came within the Proclamation or not. 209. Mr. Rolleston.] Did the Government understand that Mr. Mackay was to act jointly for the purchase of the whole for Mr. Russell and the Government, and subsequently there was to be a division of payment and of the land? —I cannot answer that question. Ido not know the particular nature of the arrangement. My understanding was, that Mr. Mackay threatened to purchase the whole for the Government if he did not get Mr. Russell to give up that portion nearest Te Aroha. 210. Is there correspondence upon the subject ? —There is a printed correspondence laid upon the table. 211. Does it show exactly what passed between Mr. Russell and Mr. Mackay?—l cannot tell the Committee that. 212. Or between Mr. Russell and the Government?— Dr. Pollen would know more about the transaction than I do. He was in Auckland, and had charge of these matters at the Thames. 213. Was there any understanding with Mr. Mackay as to whether ho was entitled to conduct private business at the same time ? —lt was understood that he was not to conduct private business, but to work altogether for the Government. 214. Do you think it was right for Mr. Guilding to take a lease of that reserve from the Natives ? —I do not think it was. If he had been a Government officer it would have been reprehensible. He was not iv any way a Government officer. He was not connected with the Government, except by working for Mr. Mackay. 215. Do you not think it possible for Europeans or Natives to have misconceived the position of Mr. Mackay, alternating as Land Purchase Commissioner and Government Agent, and as restricted from taking private practice ?—I think it is probable that Natives or Europeans might not know in what particular capacity he was acting. His transactions in connection with land were chiefly when he was not a Government Agent. He was Government Agent when in Waikato. When at the Thames, and in his district, he was purchasing land on commission. He was for a time acting as Agent at the opening of Ohinemuri. 216. The public had no means through the Gazette of knowing of any change in his position ?—No. 217. Do you not think the whole arrangements require revision in regard to this system of land purchase ?—The system is one that has been forced upon the Government from the circumstances of the country. They had to compete with numerous capitalists coming in, and had to employ the best agents they could to secure the land for the public. A reference to the correspondence will show how difficult it was for the Government to get any land at all under the circumstances. As soon as it is possible, the system which I prefer will be adopted, to employ officers on salary to acquire land, and not on commission. 218. Is the Government advised that the purchase of timber is legal upon land for which no certificate of title has been granted ?—lt is not legal, of course—not strictly legal. It has been permitted from the foundation of the colony to the present day. There was an Act restricting the purchase of timber and everything else, which was repealed by the Assembly. 219. The Chairman.'] Why were the Provincial Government at Auckland not allowed to interfere in these land purchases ? I ask that because Ido not admit that these difficulties were of a character which, I understand, the General Government feel them as being. —The Provincial authorities had been consulted about these. Under the first sum of £200,000 the Superintendent had been consulted; and both Superintendents had been consulted about these purchases, and one of them, at least, took an active part in the purchases. 220. But latterly that was not the case ? —Latterly, I believe, it was not the case. I would point out to the Committee this difference between the £200,000 and the £500,000: that the intention was to charge the £200,000 to the provinces, and consequently it was understood that the Superintendent should have a voice in the purchase of this land. There was no such condition applicable to the last sum of money granted for purchases. 221. Mr. Rolleston.] Would it not bo a great advantage to Mr. Russell and others to have these negotiations conducted by a Government agent for lands of which by Mr. Mackay's arrangements they would have the whole of the timber for ninety-nine years: I mean that the Government should buy the land ?—I do not think so. 222. Would it not make the Government their landlords, instead of the Natives ?—I do not see there was any advantage particularly ; after the land had passed through the Court the title was just as good as if the Government had it. A good many of these blocks had passed through the Native Land Court.

Eon. Sir H. McLean. 18th Aug., 1875. t

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223. Had this Tairua block passed through ?—I think the Tairua was one of the blocks. 224. The Chairman.~) "Was it a gold field at the time?—lt was supposed to be auriferous. 225. Was it proclaimed? —I cannot recollect; the Proclamation will show. 226. Mr. Rolleston.] I understand that these timber leases, or a large portion of them, were stated to be invalid by Mr. Mackay's report? —One or two were invalid through some informality —through the declaration of the interpreter not being to it. 227. But surely they were all invalid that that arrangement would apply to. Mr. Mackay would have no occasion to say to the Government "You must respect these arrangements," if they had a legal title? —The Government uniformly respect all equitable titles that Europeans have from the Natives, in the shape of timber leases or other rights. 228. The Chairman.] Who settled the equitable nature of the title ? —ln these cases Mr. Mackay was himself the party who had been purchasing timber for Europeans, and his understanding with Mr. Ormond is laid down specifically and clearly in the report before the Committee, wherein he recites a number of cases, and takes employment from the Government only on the understanding that these are respected. 229. Mr. Rolleston.] Then we come this; that it would be a great advantage to the holders of these questionable leases that the Government should buy the land, and practically validate them ?— I do not consider that there was any great advantage. They had an equitable right, out of which they could not be disturbed. 230. They had no legal right ? —They had, in most instances, on lands that had passed through the Native Land Court. Lauds which had not passed would not be in the same position. 231. The Chairman. —I proposed to the Government this plan : that their agents should buy the whole block of land from the Natives in the first place, and that then, in open Court, all equitable claims of Europeans should be determined in reference to that particular block, instead of giving to a private individual —to one individual —the power of determining and settling with the people who claimed ?—Your proposal was that there should be a Court of inquiry. 232. What objection was there to that plan ?—I do not know of any objection. I believe it would be a good suggestion to have a Court of inquiry. 233. Why was my proposal not replied to ?—I cannot answer that question; I think you made the suggestion to the Colonial Secretary. I cannot answer as to any correspondence between you. 234. Mr. Thomson.] I wish to ask whether the Government has any information as to whether the leases granted by the Natives to those persons were for the same areas of land as the leases subsequently confirmed by the Government ? I have heard something about these leases extending over larger areas ? —I am not aware of any such case. 235. The Chairman.] Have the Government in their possession, in reference to the Tairua block, any document which shows what was the area of the original timber leases from the Natives to the proprietors who claim a lease from the Crown ?—ln reference to Tairua particularly, I could not answer that question without looking up the documents, and seeing whether there is any discrepancy between the leases. I will see if there are any documents on the subject. 23G. Mr. Sheehan.] Do you know whether this Waiharakeke was inside the proclaimed boundary or not ? —lt was outside the boundary of the block Mr. Ormond instructed Mr. Mackay to negotiate. 237. If it were within the boundary of the Proclamation, there would be no occasion for making any arrangement with Mr. Russell?—No, the Government would have the whole control of the matter. 238. The Chairman.] Was any public notification issued that this privilege had been given to Mr. Russell, in order that the rest of the Queen's subjects that could might come in and claim a similar privilege ?—I am not aware of any except the Proclamation. lam not aware of any other notice. 239. Then it was an individual privilege ?—lt was a public matter. Ido not think it was intended as an individual advantage. Every individual that had rights would be on the same footing. 240. Were they informed of it ? —I cannot say whether they were informed of it or not. 241. Mr. Sheehan.] Of course, under the provisions of the 75th section of the Native Lands Act of 1865, all transactions for the acquisition of Native land, before going through the Court, are null and void ? —Yes, they are null and void. 242. I take it for granted that there can be no equitable interest which has been declared null and void by statute ? —-Unless the land had passed through the Court. If it had done so, it would, of course, be a legal title. A great number of blocks down there had passed through the Court.

Son. Sir D. McLean. 18th Aug., 1875.

Fbiday, 20th August, 1875. Mr. H. T. Clarke, Under Secretary for Native Affairs, examined on oath. Witness deposed: I have brought the papers referring to Hungahunga and Waiharakeke. 243. Mr. Rolleston.] I want to understand from Mr. Clarke what is the position of the Native Purchase Department in relation to the permanent head of the Native Department ? —ln what respect do you mean ? 244. Does all correspondence pass through the Under Secretary's hands ? —lt does. 245. All correspondence of every kind with regard to land purchase ?—Yes; the Native Land Purchase Department is considered a branch of the Native Secretary's Department. 246. The Chairman.'] Are you in charge of that branch ?—I am supposed to be in charge of both of them. 247. Mr. Rolleston.] These are the whole papers with regard to this transaction? —That is a complete file of the Hungahunga and Waiharakeke papers. 248. Do the printed papers of the Tairua block contain the whole of the correspondence in the department ? —Everything. If there are any not there, they are simply matters of routine. The principal matters are there. 249. Do the papers laid on the table with regard to«Mr. Brissenden contain the whole of the correspondence ? —The whole, except some unimportant papers.

Mr. Clark.

20th Aug., 1875,

13

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Thubsday, 26th August, 1875. Colonel McDonnell further examined on oath. 250. The Chairman."] What is the further statement which you wish to make to the Committee? —Tt was ahout whether Sir Donald McLean was in the room when I laid the letter on the table. • Sir Donald McLean was in the room when I laid the letter on the table. After 1 had finished writing the letter, I had the envelope in my hand, and was just going to moisten the gum, when I said, " No, I won't; I will go and read the letter to Sir Donald McLean, and have some more talk with him." When I went into the office, to the best of my recollection and belief, Sir Donald McLean was in the office, and I think it was Mr. Kemp, Civil Commissioner, who was with him ; but there was some one with Sir Donald in the office. I said, "This is the letter," and Sir Donald McLean said, " You had better leave it on the table." I did so, and at once went down to Dr. Pollen. I saw Mr. Brissenden standing underneath the Post Office balcony. During the time 1 was having the conversation with Sir D. McLean in the office, in reference to some remark I made, he said, " I wish I had known as much of this before as I do now, but we cannot go back." 251. Sir D. McLean.'] Before you go on, did you not state to this Committee that you left the letter on the table; and then you were asked if I was in the room, and you stated distinctly that I was not ? How is it that you have changed your statement ? 252. Mr. Rollesion.] I think the witness should make his statement first, and then he can be crossexamined afterwards. Witness.] When I saw Mr. Brissenden, I went up to him and said that he was to have blocks which had never cost him any trouble, and which he was to be. paid upon the acreage. I asked him to come up and see Sir Donald McLean, but he said, " No, if he wishes to see me, he will send for me." I went up again to the Civil Commissioner's office; I saw Sir D. McLean standing in the street just by the door of the Civil Commissioner's office. I wished to talk to him, when he made a remark about my dog. A gentleman then came up from the Club, and Sir D. McLean turned and walked with him. I went home, and told my wife all that had occurred. I said to her, "I do not think that McLean will knock me off altogether, as he said he would." The Committee will excuse me from making this remark. Under this impression, next day I got a kit of nectarines and peaches from my garden for Sir D. McLean, and took it away, imagining that he would be at the office. I went there, and left the fruit. When I came out I met Colonel St. John at the Club, and I gave him two peaches, and said to him that I had left some peaches on Sir D. McLean's table, when he said that he had gone to Waikato. I saw Major Heaphy, V.C., and I said " You are in luck ; come and have some peaches." 253. Sir D. McLean.] I wish you to explain how, in your statement the other day, which was very clear and distinct, you stated that you left the letter in my room, and that I was not there at the time ?—I was mistaken. I did not know I was coming before the Committee. I was in the lobby, and I was walked right up. I thought I was not going to be called till next day. 254. What difference would that make ? You have made two statements, one contradictory to the other. I merely want you to give an explanation of the two different statements. —The only explanation I can give is that when I went into your room with the peaches, you were not there, and that I was confusing that with the time when I went with the letter. I should like to make another statement before the Committee if they would permit me—not in reference to this, but it applies to that. Just before Sir D. McLean left for Australia, he told me that Mr. Brissenden had been employed to purchase land in the North, and that he hoped I would not interfere with him —implying that I would do nothing against him with the Natives. Some time after this Mr. Brissenden was a passenger on board the same steamer I went down to the Bay of Islands in—l think about the 16th of June, 1874. Mr. Brissenden asked me if I had been purchasing land in the North. I said " Yes, that I was employed as a Native Land Purchase Agent." He asked me what salary I got. I told him £300 a year, and 10s. 6d. a day travelling allowance. I said, " What do you get ?" " Well," he said, " I get £2 2s. a day, £1 Is. travelling allowance, and an interpreter allowed at £1 Is. a day, and 10s. 6d. travelling allowance. I get 4d. an acre on all lands I buy, and I have the permission to purchase lands for myself and my friends in small blocks." I said "Indeed !" He said, "I told McLean and Vogel that unless they gave me this permission it would be no speculation, and would not suit me, and that they must not expect my services." After some more conversation, he said, " I was afraid at the time I got this that it might be injurious to yourself and to Mr. Kemp, but I was assured by McLean that Kemp was well provided for, and that your claims on the Government were such that they would have to put you in some department or another, and that he did not care whether you bought land or not." I said to him, " How is it possible for you to have got permission, as you say you have, from the Government to purchase land on your own account?" He said, "I have got them pretty well by the wool." He said he was standing before the fireplace, and Sir Donald was on one side and Mr. Vogel on the other. They said they had sent for him to offer him the appointment, and entreated him to accept it. They asked him what he wanted. He stated what pay he wanted, and permission to buy land. They said they would give the pay and allowance he asked for himself, but they could not allow him to purchase land. He said to them, " You have sent for me, and if you will allow me I will tell you a story." This is the story which he said he repeated to Sir D. McLean and Mr. Vogel: " There was a man named Florence, who kept a large hotel in New York. He had a suite of rooms in the hotel for his private acquaintances. One evening, while he was there, a knock came to the door, and they called ' Come in.' The door was opened, and there was a man with gold rings on his fingers, and gold chain. He said, 'Is this Florence's room ?' ' That is my name,' said Florence. ' Well,' said the man, ' you sent for me, Florence.' Florence said he had not sent for him, when the man pulled out a newspaper, which had an advertisement, ' Wanted, a first-clans head waiter.' ' Now,' he said, ' You sent for me, Florence, and I come.' He then placed his credentials before Florence, who read them, and said, ' These are all right and satisfactory so far; now comes the question of pay—what salary do you want ?' He answered, 'If you want honesty, Florence, and a good man to conduct this hotel properly, 150 dollars a week ; but if you don't want honesty, I don't care what you give me.' " That was exactly the story as it was told to me. I need not say that I did not believe him.

Col. McDonnell.

26th Aug., 1875,

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14

255. Sir D. McLean.] You did not believe him ?—No, I have no belief in his statements. I told this story to Dr. Pollen, and I got Mr. Brissenden to repeat the story to others. He said to me, ''Now, I have been thinking if I cannot do some little service for you." I said, "You are very kind; what would you do ?" He said, " You told me you had £300 a year, and 10s. 6d. a day travelling allowance. I will give you £100 a year in addition." I said, "Have you any authority?" He said, "It will come out of my own pocket. It will pay me to give it, and you to receive it." He said, " How much land have you bought ?" I had my pocket-book, and made a rough calculation, and said, 80,000 or 100,000 acres. He said, " You let them rip ; drop them ; let me pick them up ; I will get the 4d. an acre, and I will give you half." This was on board the " Rowena," on the 16th of June. I had some thoughts of taking action, but 1 thought it better, from my experience, to leave him alone. While at the Bay of Islands we had a walk on the beach, and he then repeated that offer again; he repeated just as I have told you about the offer. At Ohaeawae I saw Mr. W. Earl, and I told him the w-hole statement; I also told Mr. Busby and other gentlemen. Mr. Earl advised me to take the £100, and enclose it in a letter to the Native Minister. I went to the Bay of Islands from Ohaeawae; I met Mr. Brissenden coming from Haruru. He got into my boat, and when we got to the hotel at Haruru, I said, " About that offer, I am going to speak clearly and straightforwardly." I took him upstairs; Mr. Dalton followed him. I had my own impression, for I told him what I thought, that he was a scoundrel and a Yankee sharper, and that I would not mix myself up with him in these transactions, that he could go his own road, and that I would never interfere with him, and that if I found him interfering with me I would horsewhip him. He said," I think you are right." He said, " the Government don't like you." I said, " Don't they ; it does not matter much to me." He said, " They don't like you ; they won't give you money to pay the Maoris, while I can draw a cheque for £10,000." Mr. Brissenden, also said, "If you don't help me to buy land, I will not be able to buy land. You were living in that district for some years, and have influence over the Natives, and if you attempt to baulk me I will not be able to buy land." I said, " I am not at all desirous to interfere with your purchases, as long as you do not interfere with the blocks I have made advances upon —that I will not permit. I was requested by Sir Donald McLean not to interfere with you, and I do not wish to do so." I told him, "As the Government were pleased to employ you, I consider it my duty to help you, but your proposal could only emanate from a scoundrel; —you were so connected with mining and swindles, but I believe you acted honestly up to your light." Here are letters which I wish to put before the Committee, written to my wife of the 17th, 18th, and 19th of June. In a letter dated the ISth of June, from Ohaeawae, I wrote—" Mr. Brissenden was a passenger with us in the steamer, but he intended to land at AVhangarei. Owing however to the gale of wind, we came on to the Bay of Islands. I had heard before I left Auckland that he was on his way to Mangakahia to try and purchase a block of land that I had promised the Natives to take from them. He tried to make himself agreeable, and commenced to talk about land, and how he got his present appointment. I felt, he said, when McLean offered it to me that I might, if I accepted it, be doing yourself and Kemp an injury, and I told McLean so, but he assured me that Kemp was well provided for, and that you had a claim on the country, and in consequence would draw your pay even if you never bought an acre of land, but that they (the Government) were obliged to put you under the head of some department or another. After a pause, he told me he had been thinking if he could not contrive to better my position. ' It's very kind of you,' I remarked, ' I only get £300 a year, and 10s. 6d. a day travelling expenses, w-hich won't pay. Pray, might I inquire what you get ?' ' Well,' he said, ' I'll tell you. I get two guineas a day pay, one guinea allowances, which makes three guineas a day. Then lam allowed an interpreter at one guinea a day, and travelling allowance for him at 10s. 6d. per diem; besides that, I get 4d. an acre on all land I buy, and the chance of doing business privately. I told McLean that unless 1 could do this it was not worth my while to accept service.' 'Then,' I replied, 'you make a good thing of it.' 'Yes,' he replied, 'I pick up a good many bits of sugar.' He continued: 'I think if you and I can agree we will do well.' 'Well,' I said, 'how?' 'Why, you see, I am allowed an interpreter,' he went on, ' but as you will continue to draw your pay whether you buy land or not, and if I applied to McLean that you be attached to me, you might simply be ordered to come with me without any extra pay. Now, I'll tell you how we can work it. I will give you £100 a year increase to your pay. You can draw it by the month or quarterly as you choose; in the meantime you had better let your purchases lapse and fall through, and let me commence over again. What is about the extent ?' He paused. ' I can tell you,' I replied, and produced my pocket-book. ' Well,' I said, ' taking Mangakahia, Waoku, and Mangonui, on a rough estimate, there is about eighty odd thousand acres.' ' Ah,' he said, 'I will share the 4d. an acre with you. Are you on the way to get more land?' 'Yes,' I said, 'about 3,000 acres and 2,000 acres.' 'Any more,' he asked? 'Yes,' I said, 'there is one block with some good timber on it, but there is no trouble about this block (Waitaroto), as the Natives have a title, and it can be bought off the reel!' ' Ah,' he said, 'if it is any good I will buy it myself.' ' Would you let me stand in with you in that too,' I inquired ? My 'cute Yankee friend said he would; and I then asked him ' if, when we had finished North, I was to go South with him, and share with him there." Waitaroto was of about 7,000 or 8,000 acres. He had told me that when he had finished the lands in the North, he would get the whole of the land purchases —in fact, that he was to be your (Sir D. McLean's) factotum in Native land purchases. This I did not believe; I only believed his offer to me, and trifling things, when he spoke. This took place when we were going up together in the " Rowena." In a letter to my wife, of the 17th of June, I wrote: —" I have much to tell you when I return ; and have been offered £100 a year more on to my pay ; but not by the Government. This appears mysterious, but I will explain in another note next time, when I can write more collectedly." On the 18th I wrote to my wife: —" Brissenden told me that he gets £3 3s. per diem pay, and travelling expenses, and an interpreter allowed him at £1 Is., and 10s. 6d. travelling expenses, and a commission of 4d. an acre on all the land he buys, besides doing business for other people, and getting paid for it. He offers me £100 a year in addition to my pay, from himself, and half the com-

Col. McDonnell.

26th Aug., 1875

15

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mission on all the land I can put him on to (for he could get little if I chose to prevent it)." [Wit- Col. ness handed in the original letters from which he had read the extracts.] If any member of the Committee has a shade of doubt about these letters, there is a young lady who was living in the house, and 26tli who has offered to give testimony to hearing the letters read by my wife. I was not aware that I had a diary, which I had on that trip when Mr. Brissenden made these statements to me. [Witness produced diary, and read following extract: —" September 12. —Took boat to Judge Maning's, with Yankee Brissenden. Partly smoothed the road for future operations at Native Land Court. Eeturned to Herd's Point. Very rough passage up in boat. 14th.—Left for Taheke and Ohaeawae. Name of timber land near Mangonui, mentioned by Maning, is 'Kauri Putete.' Tuesday, 15th.—Up all day arranging for land. Wonder if can be any truth about B.s (Brissenden's) tale about Vogel and block of kauri timber. Likely another lie. 15th October. —Eeturned to Ohaeawae. Brissenden returned. Long talk with Natives. Asked Brissenden again about buying forests for Vogel. Says he is going to do so. Says Pollen rubbed his hands, and wanted him to buy block near his property at Kaipara. N.B. —A lie. Sunday, 18th October, 1874. —Pish on the . Went along gaily all day, Camped for dinner at settlement. Brissenden wants Rawia, in Kairaia block, for Russell. Says he will make a thousand, and offers me to stand in with him. Says Whitaker will assist, &c. No, you won't, Mr. Yankee!"] 256. The Chairman.] These were made by you at the time ?—Yes, at the time. I wish to state decidedly in reference to Mr. Brissenden's statements as to Mr. Vogel employing him, and to what he said about Sir Donald McLean and Dr. Pollen. I believe he told a most damnable lie. I can bring forward people in support of a great many things which I have said. Mr. Dalton, the surveyor, could testify that Mr. Brissenden attempted to swindle the Natives with reference to a cheque. 257. Hon. Sir B. McLean.'] You saw these things, and made no report of them ?—I felt that he had the ear of the Government, and I had not, and that if he said I was troublesome I should be moved, and he would remain to carry out his rascality. He said if he could not make 2\ off the payments to the Natives, his name was not Brissenden, The first transaction was at Ohaeawai. There are three or four witnesses to prove my statement. I think it was in connection with the block Awaroa. I had agreed to purchase it for Is. 6d. per acre, and when we came to settle I had arranged with the Natives to give an advance. I said to Brissenden, "You can give the Native £20, and take his receipt." I then took up a book at the fire. Brissenden took Dalton aside into a small room. He had told me that he had five hundred sovereigns with him, besides the cheque book. He then gave the Native a cheque for £20. Mr. Dalton came back with the money in his pocket that Mr. Brissenden had given him. I think the Native's name was Hauraki, but I won't be certain. He took up the cheque and said, " What is the use of this ? I cannot divide the money." Brissenden said, "If you don't like to take that you will have no money at all." Dalton brought out five sovereigns from one pocket and three from another, till there were eighteen sovereigns. At last I said, "What is all this about? " I went to Mr. G-offe, in the bar, and asked him if he would give me £20 for this cheque. He could not do it. I had £12 with me, in my pocket, and I asked him to give me £8. He did so, and I said to the Native, " Here is your money for your cheque." I afterwards got the cheque cashed by Mr. Goffe. I said to the Natives that if they heard anything of this kind to let me know, and I would stop it. Mr. Brissenden had an arrangement with Mr. Dalton, whom he had under his thumb. I do not know what power he had. He was to survey 100,000 acres, and of what he got from the Government he was to give Mr. Brissenden half. He arranged with others I know for a positive fact; he told me so himself. He tried to get the same arrangement with Ingham Stevens. Dalton was to survey 100,000 acres, and to give him £50 out of every £100. This I swear, so help me God, is true —every word I have uttered to-day. I knew as long as I was with Brissenden I could baulk him ; but to speak openly or to write about him would only put me in the wrong box. I told my friends, and other people also knew it as well as I did. When Sir Donald McLean told me he was going to let Brissenden have this acreage, I thought it very hard. You may recollect, Sir Donald, this : during the time we had these conversations you said you were glad I told you about his pay. You rang the bell, and sent for Colonel St. John, I think. St. John came into the room, and you said, " I want this paper about Brissenden." Colonel St. John went out and brought in one. You said, "That is not the one j it is the last paper about Brissenden's appointment." He returned with half a dozen or ten sheets of foolscap. You said to me, " Read that," and I read it. In it was stated that the pay was to be 2s. over all lands except the Victoria Valley, and that against this would be placed former moneys he had received. You said, "He does not get so well paid as you." 258. Son. Sir D. McLean.~\ I recollect that. —It was on the same day as the other. 259. First, I want to ask you how you came to state on the first examination that when you left the letter in my room I was not there ? —That was an error. I did not recollect it at the time. When I got back and thought over it, it came back upon me like a flash of lightning. I can only account for my error because on the day following I took the peaches and left them on the table, and you were not in the room. 260. You say you made that statement in error —that you made a statement which was incorrect ? —Yes, it was incorrect about leaving it on the table, and you not in the room. 261. In reference to Mr. Brissenden, do you not consider that knowing all these things you ought to have reported to the Government ?—When I refused to become a rascal with Mr. Worgan, what was the result ? I was sent from the Wanganui district to Auckland at a loss to me of £75. I felt that it was hopeless in me reporting Mr. Brissenden. I felt he would use the influence he had, and say that I was a stumbling-block to the acquiring of land, in order that I should be moved away. 262. Had you not differences on the West Coast with most of the Government officers—with Mr. Worgan ?—No. 263. Had you no differences with Mr. Parris ? —I had. 264. You could not work with him ?—No; because he interfered with my work. I never interfered with him. 265. With what work of yours did he interfere ?—With the operations being carried on on the West Coast—with the military operations. r

McDonnell.

Aug., 1875,

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16

266. But subsequently, in other matters, did you not differ with Mr. Parris, or with any other officers on the West Coast ? —I have no recollection of any difference with Mr. Parris, except during • the military operations, and even then I had no feeling against him at all. I always had a great respect for him, which I have not had for other officers. 207. You travelled to the North in the " Luna " when Mr. Brissenden was there: During that time you might have told me of all these circumstances, on board of the "Luna" and elsewhere ? —Tes, I had opportunities certainly. I mentioned the matter to Major Green when I returned from the North. I told him that it was no use reporting, as I would not be able to prevent Brissenden from doing anything against me to get me removed. 268. You had no justification whatever for such an impression? —That was what I felt however. I thought I would report, and then I thought it would be no use. 269. You did not believe Mr. Brissenden's statements ? —No, most decidedly. I believe that he was trying to purchase for others, and was trying to effect reserves of kauri for Mr. Russell. I did not believe that the Government had given him permission to purchase for Mr. Russell. 270. Were you authorized by the Government to do anything for private individuals ?—No. 271. The Chairman.'] You mentioned Mr. Worgan, in the Wanganui district, who was he?—Mr. Worgan had been living in the Hawke's Bay district for a good many years, and he got an appointment about 1870 or 1871, which caused his removal from Napier into the Wanganui district, connected with the confiscated lands, to purchase certain claims of Natives who had not been concerned in the war. These claims were within the confiscated lands. 272. He had something to do with the purchase of land ? —He was extinguishing the Native title within some confiscated blocks on the lands claimed by the Pakakohe. 273. You objected to his transactions ?—Not at all; I did not object. It did not interfere with me. I had given Mr. Worgan a great deal of help, as I knew the Natives better than he. I helped him as I did Mr. Pharazyn and others. What I objected to was in reference to Murimotu. When I got home one evening from Murimotu, a messenger came to me from Mr. Fitzherbert, who was then in Wanganui with Mr. Bunny. Mr. Fitzherbert sent for me to a room of the hotel, and asked me about the quality of some land at Waitotara, mentioning the name of the block, which I think was near the Karaka, and was of about 7,000 acres or thereabouts. I told Mr. Fitzherbert that the greater part of the block was very good land, that there was some of rather indifferent quality, that there were about 500 acres of good land and 200 indifferent. Mr. Fitzherbert said, " The reason I have sent for you is because I have permission from the General Government to purchase this block, and to engage Mr. Worgan in purchasing it. I have spoken to Mr. Worgan, and he has promised to get it for the Government." The next day I went into town, and I met Mr. Worgan, and he asked me to go into a room in one of the hotels (Atkinson's Hotel) —that he wanted to speak to me. He placed a deed before me, and said, " I want you to get the signatures of the men I require to sign. Some of them are up the river at Ranana, and others at different places on the river. I want you to get their signatures to this." I said, " I will do so.". I thought it was a purchase of some land he had obtained for the Government, but on looking I found that the sale was to Mr. Iverson, to Mr. Russell, Manager of the Bank of New Zealand at Wanganui, and to one or two others. I forget the whole of the names. I said, " This is the very block that Mr. Fitzherbert told me you were going to get for him." He said, "Damn Fitzherbert! I'm not going to buy for him." I said, "He told me he had engaged you to purchase this land. What will the Government say P" As Mr. Brissenden, so said Mr. Worgan. He snapped his fingers, and said, " Let them do what they like." I said, " I gave you a horsewhipping a few years ago, and I should give you one now." I went straight to Mr. Fitzherbert, but he was not there ; Mr. Bunny was, and I told him what Mr. Worgan had been doing. I said, " You have engaged this man to purchase land for you, and he is actually engaged in purchasing it for private parties." Afterwards I was sent for, and when I came I saw Mr. Fitzherbert, who had a telegram in his hand, and he said, "Am I right in sending that telegram ?" I said, " Yes, so far as the facts being correct." George Worgan afterwards declared to Robert Pharazyn, and to many people, that he would get me moved. I know the result was that I was moved away from Wanganui. I thought that if I wrote about Mr. Brissenden I would be moved to some other place. 274. What reason had you for supposing that it would in any way interfere with you —that Mr. Worgan's action would interfere with you with the Government? —-From what other people had told me, I felt that was the result of my disagreement with Mr. Worgan, and Mr. Fox told Mr. William Pharazyn that there were too many cats to catch the mice. I was moved away because I interfered with George Worgan. I did not interfere with him about the land. I gave him the benefit of my knowledge and experience, and assisted him to get these lands; but not to get lands from Natives for private parties. I believe the Government have since found out about Mr. Worgan. 275. The Government had an inquiry, and Mr. Worgan was dismissed. I would like to ask you whether you had any questions of difference with Mr. Booth, Laud Purchase Commissioner ?—I had a few. He interfered with respect to the Murimotu block. 276. Had you anything to do with it on behalf of the Government ?—I went there to try to lease it for the Superintendent. 277. What was the nature of your difference with Mr. Booth in reference to Murimotu?—l really forget. It it was something trifling ; there was not much difference between us. 278. Could you work together ? —I believe we could have worked together. I was perfectly willing to work with Mr. Booth. 279. You did not interfere with him in any of his arrangements with the Natives ?—Not at all. I never interfered with Mr. Booth and the Natives. 280. Mr. Richmond.'] You told the Committee that you had a rough copy of the private letter you laid on the table of Sir Donald McLean, in Auckland; have you got it? —Yes, I wrote my letter from this at the time. It is not a correct cop) r. 281. Hon. Sir D. McLean^] What is it founded upon? Is it from recollection? —I wrote this first, and then wrote from it. It is not the exact wording I wrote, but the facts stated were the same as this. It is materially the same. [Witness read document which is indorsed, " Letter written to Sir

Col. McDonnell,

26th Aug., 1875,

17

I.—l

D. McLean, reporting Mr. Brissenden's statements to self. N.B.—But not a correct copy." The ■document was as follows : —" Auckland, January 25th, 1875.—Sir,—Referring to what I was saying today about Tutamoe and Kairara blocks, which included Totarapoka, and in reference to Mr. Brissenden, I have simply the honor to state that, if what he has told me on more than one occasion is correct, lam not astonished at his anxiety to conclude the negotiations I commenced. Mr. Brissenden has informed me that he wished to reserve some of the kauri I had reported on for Mr. Thomas Russell and Mr. Vogel, as the former gentleman had entered into a contract with the Admiralty for spars, and that he had permission also from yourself and the Hon. Julius Vogel to use his own judgment in negotiations of this kind affecting land at the time he received the appointment he now holds. With the above I have nothing whatever to do, but I venture to say this, should the negotiations for the above-mentioned piece of country be handed over to Mr. Brissenden to conclude, it will very much tend to complicate what I have taken much pains to bring to a satisfactory conclusion, as the Natives are anxious that I and not others negotiate these blocks ; and there are many details connected with them I have been at much time and trouble to find out. —I have, &c. (Also) : Mr. Vogel, according to Mr. Brissenden, desires him to procure him a forest of kauri timber. (Also) : The Government had given Mr. Brissenden leave to purchase land for himself, and to allow other Europeans to do so, if it was thought prudent, that is, if the said Europeans made themselves troublesome. —T. M." (Note at foot of second page) : " Had been requested by Dr. Pollen to procure some land for him at Kaipara near to private property."] 282. Mr. Richmond.'] Were all these in the fair copy ? —Tes, they were, with the exception of the note about Dr. Pollen. Everything else was written except the marks in pencil. 283. Mr. Rolleston.] Tou communicated the substance of that to Dr. Pollen after communicating -with Sir Donald McLean ? —I went straight to Dr. Pollen's office, and told him everything in that letter, and also related the story of Mr. Florence and the New York Hotel. 284-. Mr. Sheehan.] Was any third person present at any of these conversations with Mr. Brissenden ?—-Yes ; when we camped on the banks of the river to get dinner, when going to Kaihu, Mr. Dalton was with us. Whether he was paying attention or not I could not say. 285. That is the only occasion when there might have been a third person present ?—Yes, with the exception of a statement in Hokianga. He made a statement that the Government had given him permission to purchase land for private parties. 286. Sir D. McLean.] Would you name any who heard him make that statement? —Stannus Jones for one, and, I believe, Major Green also, but I won't be positive. Stannus Jones I know he has told, and also Mr. Webster at Hokianga, and Mr. Dalton. He told Mr. Webster, in Hokianga, that he had power from the Government to reserve any blocks of land, as long as he did not take too much. That he has been dealing for timber land could be found from Wi Tana Papahia as a fact. 287. Mr. O'JSTeill. —Was Mr. Dalton in Mr. Brissenden's employ ? —Brissenden said that he paid £300 for an interpreter, and that he gave it to Dalton. I have reason to believe the statement is incorrect. He had got Dalton under his thumb, and was screwing him. 288. What was Mr. Dalton ?—He is a Native Land Surveyor. Mr. G. H. Datis examined on oath. 289. Sir D. McLean.] You were a clerk in the Native Office ?—Yes. 290. You travelled with me when I was in Auckland ?—Yes ; from the time we left, on the 24th October, 1874, with the exception of a fortnight at Christmas. 291. A statement has been made to this Committee by Colonel McDonnell that he placed a letter on my table in the Native Office, in Auckland, on the 25th of January. Have you any recollection of any such letter ? —No ; I was in the habit of coming into your room and sorting any papers, making a precis of them, and recording them in a book. If there had been any paper such as mentioned, it would be among my records. I recorded everything, and kept them locked up. 291. Can you produce the record book ? —Yes. [Record book produced.] Witness: On the 25th of January there were four letters received and recorded, two from Captain Porter, and two from Mr. Locke. On the 26th January we went to Waikato I did not take the book with me. 292. Mr. Rolleston. Would you take letters lying on Sir Donald McLean's table not given for record ? —I used to take all letters and lock them up. 293. Sir D. McLean.] Did you ever see a letter from Colonel McDonnell, stating that Mr. Brissenden had informed him that he was authorized to purchase lands for private individuals, and mentioning Mr. Vogel, Dr. Pollen, and Mr. T. Russell? —I never saw a letter of that kind. We only received two or three letters from Colonel McDonnell, and these are entered. 294. You have no recollection of any letter of that kind ? —No. 295. If such a letter had been placed on my table, in the ordinary course it would have come into your hands ?—lt would; I would have taken it up after you left the office, and have registered it in the book. 296. Mr. Rolleston.] Would you have done so whether the letter was open or not?—l opened Maori letters, but not English letters. 297. Suppose a letter not opened to have been left on the table, should you have opened such a letter from Colonel McDonnell ? —I did not open any English letters. 298. Sir D. McLean.] You were in the habit of bringing any letters to me ? —Any letters or papers which came were taken directly to Sir Donald McLean, and he opened them. If I went in in the course of the day, he might give me what he had looked through and ask me to record them. 299. With reference to this letter, you never saw it ?—No, I never saw it. The only letter from Colonel McDonnell was one about land purchase at Whangaroa. 300. Mr. Richmond.] Do you remember seeing Colonel McDonnell in the office?—l cannot say. I was down town part of the day. I was getting ready to go to Waikato, and sorting papers. 301. Sir D. McLean.] If such a letter had been placed on my table by Colonel McDonnell, would Jfou not have seen it ? —I would have seen it when I cleared up the table. 3.—1. 1.

Col. McDonnell.

27th Aug., 1875.

Mr. G. H. Davis.

27th Aug., 1875.

I.—l

18

302. Mr. Thomson.] And if that letter had not been opened, would you have taken it and recorded it ?—I would not record a letter unless it was opened. I had to make a precis of the subject.

Mr. G. H. Davis.

27th Aug., 1875.

Tuesday, 31st August, 1875. Hon. Dr. Pollen examined on oath. 303. The Chairman.'] Have you any recollection of a conversation in January last with Colonel McDonnell, in reference to purchases by Mr. Brissenden in the North, and to statements made by that gentleman as to his being empowered to make purchases of timber leases for Mr. Vogel and Mr. Russell, and also as to his being authorized to purchase land for yourself at Kaipara? —I have no recollection of any such conversation, and I think it extremely improbable such a statement would be made to me. 304. You do not remember Colonel McDonnell calling on you and making such a statement ? —I do not remember. He called upon me frequently in and out, and I have had from time to time conversations with him, but not of any importance. If you ask me as to his calling at any particular time, and making that statement, I say I have no recollection of it. I think it extremely improbable that such a conversation could have occurred. 305. Tou do not remember his ever making such a statement to you ?—I do not. 306. Mr. Rolleston.] Have you heard, either through Colonel McDonnell or anyone else, of such a statement as that Sir Julius Vogel and Mr. Russell were obtaining leases of Native reserves, or what were called reserves ? —I have heard of such a statement within the last week only. 307. It has not come before you from Colonel McDonnell or anybody else previously?— No. 308. The Chairman.'] Did Mr. Brissenden ever receive instructions from you regarding land purchases to the north of Auckland?—Mr. Brissenden was not directly under my control. He is an officer under Sir Donald McLean. 309. Did he ever receive instructions from you on the subject of land purchases ?—The only instruction I ever gave him officially, which I can remember, was with reference to surveys. I heard some complaints with respect to the arrangements for the surveys which I did not like, and I immediately ordered that all surveys in the North, and in other land purchases, should be conducted entirely and exclusively through the Department of the Inspector of Surveys at Auckland, Captain Heale. 310. Have you had any conversation with him regarding lands at Kaipara ?—Yes; regarding Kaipara, amongst other places. 311. Was he requested to take any particular steps with reference to land in that direction?—l do not remember that. Kaipara is a very large district. 312. I mean with reference to lands in which you were interested yourself ?—No, he was not. I never bought an acre of Native land in my life, and never shall. 313. Mr. Rolleston.~] Have you ever had any conversation with Sir Donald McLean regarding a communication made to you by Mr. Brissenden, that he was empowered to make certain purchases ? Colonel McDonnell says, '; I was expressing my opinion of Mr. Brissenden at the time I related these things to you (Sir D. McLean), to let you know what he had told me. He also stated he was going to purchase land for Dr. Pollen, adjacent to some land he had at Kaipara. I forget the name of the block." —I do not remember any such conversation with Sir D. McLean. The statement about purchase of land for me is absolutely untrue. I never bought an acre of Native land in my life. I set myself from the first conscientiously in opposition to the waiving of the Crown's right of pre-emption. I never dealt in Native land, and never shall. 314. It was after his conversation with Sir D. McLean that he says he spoke to you. He says, " I repeated the whole thing to Dr. Pollen what I had told you. I went to Dr. Pollen after I had seen you, and related it to him in his own office in the Government Buildings." Is that the case or not ? —I have no recollection of such a thing. It is most imjjrobable. 315. Have you any recollection of his speaking to you with reference to Mr. Brissenden ? —There was perpetual jealousy and quarrelling between them about the land purchases. Colonel McDonnell had been employed in purchasing lands in the North, and he was jealous of Mr. Briesenden's interference with what he called his purchases there. There was the usual official jealousy and difficulties between them, which I did not give much attention to. 316. Mr. Richmond.] I suppose in some of these Colonel McDonnell complained to you of the way in which Mr. Brissenden was carrying on his negotiations? —No, except in the sense of showing that there was jealousy. He never made any formal or official complaint to me on the subject. 317. Mr. Rolleston.] Did you know anything of the terms of the contract with the Admiralty, as affecting any reserve in land purchased by the Government ? —I never heard of it until within these last few days. E. T. Beissexdex examined on oath. 318. The Chairman^] Do you remember having had any conversation with Colonel McDonnell regarding your being empowered to purchase timber leases for Sir Julius Vogel and Mr. Thomas Russell, and land for Dr. Pollen ?—I certainly do not. 319. You had no such conversation ? —No. 320. Never ? —Never to purchase for these gentlemen you have mentioned —Dr. Pollen, Sir Julius Vogel, and Mr. Thomas Russell. I have never had such authority, and I never stated that I had. 321. You never made such a statement to any person?—No; to my knowledge I never made such a statement. I am sure I never did ; such a thing never happened. I had been talked to by Mr. Russell about timber, but only to get information; not for me to get any.

Hon. Dr. Pollen.

31st Aug., 1875,

Mr. E. T. Sris-

tenden.

31et Aug., 1875.

19

L—l.

322. In that district?— There is no kauri in any district except to the north of Auckland. 323. Mr. Russell has had conversations with j^ou ? —Yes, he asked me about some timber lease or purchase made by a Melbourne company which had purchased the right to cut timber, but I think not to any large value. Mr. Russell had an agent at one time at Hokianga, who at the time I was purchasing was endeavouring to make some contracts for timber land or timber; Ido not know which. 324. An agent of Mr. Russell, not of Sir Julius-Vogel ?—Certainly not Sir Julius Vogel. 325. Had you any permission from the Government to purchase land for yourself? —Never. Since I have been a Land Purchase Agent I never have done so. I asked, previous to my connection with the Government, but I never got an answer favourable to my views. 326. Who was your interpreter ?—Principally Mr. C. E. Nelson. 327. Have you or Mr. Nelson refrained from purchasing land in the Kaipara district for fear of interfering with private persons ? —Never for fear of interfering with private persons. Only in cases where preliminary agreements or negotiations had been entered into for land by private individuals with the Natives, I have not interfered. I have refrained from doing so, that is, respecting those lands previously negotiated before the Act of 1873 came into force. I understood they were to be allowed to carry out such agreements. 328. In the cases of what individuals have you refrained from making such purchases ? GKve the names.—The first case that came under my notice was that of Mr. Stannus Jones, in the Hokianga district, in reference to a block of land known as Otawa, since named Arawhetotara. 329. Will you state any other cases ?—There is the case of this Melbourne company. I wished to purchase that land, as I thought it would be valuable. They had no real legal title ; in fact, they have none at present. 330. What other case ? —I think there is some case of Mr. John Webster in the same district. He wrote to me about a block, Omahuta, that he had previously advanced money upon, and I believe it was a fact; but so far, I have not goue into that negotiation. 331. What other cases? —There is that of Mr. Copland, on the East Coast, below the Bay of Islands, to the south. I have been asked to refrain from touching these lands. 332. What other cases ? —There is another of Mr. Tates further north, near the North Cape. He was in negotiation for land for Tates and Jones. I found I could do nothing, as the Natives were iv his debt in the stores, and I could not touch it. 333. What other cases ?—One at Kaipara, on the Wairoa, where Mr. Dargaville had some timber lease or timber purchase over some small blocks. He had advanced some money, and I agreed with the Natives that I should excise them from the purchase that was made for the Government. 334. What other cases ?—I do not remember any other distinct case. I think I was spoken to about other purchases, but I do not remember any more. 335. Tell the cases you were spoken to about ? —I cannot at present; not giving any weight to many of these conversations, I took no further notice. I did not desist from purchasing in any other case that I remember. 336. These were all the cases ? —I am trying to think. I have been spoken to by certainly fifty people, who would say, " You must not buy this block or that block," but on inquiry I found that no great dependence was to be placed on them. I simply went on and transacted my business. 337. You have not been spoken to by any other person ? —No, not in any particular case. 338. Have you been spoken to by any person about land near Dr. Pollen's run ?—All the land in that particular locality is through the Court, so far as I know. Ido not know 1,000 acres which is not througli the Court, and actual freehold property. 339. You have not refrained from doing anything there ? —I have not done anything there on account of the high price of the land, for which from 10s. to £2 per acre is asked. 340. Has anj r conversation taken place with reference to purchasing or refraining from purchasing ?—I think there ha.s. I had a conversation with Colonel McDonnell about the land in Kaipara. He had been in that locality, and he had bought a block or two which I had some difficulty in adjusting after I took the reins. He made a remark that it would not do to go into that district, as it would interfere with Dr. Pollen. I said I understood that all the land was through the Court, and that Dr. Pollen had got all he required ; but if he had negotiated for any land I supposed he would be allowed to carry it out, the same as other individuals. I think that is something like the conversation. That was some time in the month of July last year. 341. That is the'only conversation you have had on that subject ? —I think it is. It is very hard to say what conversations Colonel McDonnell and I have had. Very likely if any others have spoken to me, I should have done my duty. I had a peculiar game to play in Auckland, where I was surrounded with land-purchase agents and land speculators. I had a very difficult task to perform in breaking through those different rings. Generally I have endeavoured to put the Auckland people off the scent, and I believe I succeeded in breaking up their rings completely. Ido not think there is a man in Auckland that would undertake to purchase a bit of Native land in my district. 342. Hon. Sir U. McLean.'] It has been stated to the Committee that you had said that you had authority from the Government to excise certain blocks of land from the purchases you were making on behalf of the Government ? —That, to a certain extent is true, and I will tell you where. If you remember. Sir Donald McLean, I wrote to you in reference to a piece of land that Mr. Stannus Jones had negotiated for. I wrote and told you the exact circumstances, that I believed he had been in negotiation. I think I had also a personal interview with you, when you told me that you had no wish to interfere with private individuals who had entered into negotiations previous to 1873. I therefore made that statement of having authority to excise in cases where the Natives told me that it had been negotiated for, or that a certain portion of a block had been negotiated for prior to that date. I understood I had that authority. 343. Did you, in any other case except that of Mr. Stannus Jones, excise any block of land ?—I believe how that speech was made was this: One block was offered to us, on a certain piece of which the Natives said they had had an advance. I said, I think, " 1 have the power to excise that piece from the block."

Mr. __.. T. Bris-

senden.

31st Aug., 1875.

I.—l

20

Mr. E. T. Bris-

344. la whose favour?—ln favour of the person who had been negotiating. 345. State to the Committee in how many instances that had taken place.—l was not called upon, I think, in any other case, to make that exception ; but I made the statement that in cases where private individuals had been in negotiation, I had, I thought, the power to excise the portions for which they had been in negotiation, and to go on with the purchase of the rest of the block. 346. You made the statement generally, that you had a general authority ? —Yes, where such cases came under our notice. 347. There were no cases except this of Mr. Stannus Jones that were so dealt with ? —I think not. Ido not bring any to mind. If such is the case, mv correspondence will certainly point it out that bucli has been the case. 348. Had you any conversation with Colonel McDonnell in reference to this case ? —lt was with him I had the conversation, thinking at the time that I had repeated exactly what had been stated to me, that if in purchasing a block I found that a portion had formerly been in negotiation, then of course I could cut it off. Now I think of it, there is another piece called Tutamoe, on the Upper Wairoa, a piece of Parore's, which overlapped—a piece of 150 or 200 acres —which I ordered to be cut off at Parore's request. I was assured by himself, and also by Colonel McDonnell I think, that it had been paid for. The block passed through the Court without that piece. 349. These are the only two cases you acted in ? —Yes. Of course, in cases of Maori reserves they cut off whatever they wanted. In the Victoria Valley, I agreed to one block of 200 or 300 acres. The Natives demanded that the reserve should be made. 350. Was it the place they used for their own occupation ?—I believe so. In almost all the cases where they have made these reserves, no doubt it was with the intention of selling the land at a higher price. I have generally, at the Courts, been able to purchase the reserves. At Otangaroa I bought a block which had been divided into four pieces. They sold me, at first, No. 4 and. No. 1, but I succeeded in purchasing the four before I left. There are generally Europeans knocking about, who suggest to the Natives to have pieces reserved. 351. Did you make any proposals to Colonel McDonnell that he should join you in certain land negotiations, and that you should share the profits between you ?—No, never. 352. Mr. Bolleston.] When did you begin to purchase land for the Government?—ln March last year; but I went north of Auckland first in June—the 17th or 15th. Colonel McDonnell was a passenger with me in the same boat. I there first became acquainted with him. 353. Had you beeD negotiating in any private land purchases prior to that ?—Yes, very many. 354. Were any of these negotiations you had in hand taken over by the Government ? —One ; I may say two. I suffered severely under the circumstances. I came to New Zealand in 1868, and in 1869 I commenced negotiating for a large tract of country at the back of the Thames Gold Field, on the East Coast, on the Whangamatu Harbour and the Upper Tairua, of 70,000 or 80,000 acres. I had a great deal of Victorian capital to deal with. I conceived the idea that it would be a good speculation to buy that land, and I undertook it, there being no restriction at the time. After I had got it pretty well secured, the Government stepped in, and proclaimed the district. I had advanced £6,000 or £7,000, and had most of the land surveyed ; and in 1572, when I was very ill, Mr. Thomas Russell, and Mr. James Mackay, who was then Agent for the Government, came to me, and endeavoured to get me to pass my rights to the Government. I only had liens for £1,950, I think, which covered the surveys. Mr. Russell was my legal adviser, and he advised me to allow the Government to have my rights and privileges. I was persuaded to do so. Eventually they paid me £1,500. I had promises from Mr. Mackay, which were not carried out —whether he had power to make them or not I do not know—that in purchasing for the Government I would get the money. 355. Had these agreements any force of law ? —None whatever. Under the old Act only liens for surveys or expenses for passing through the Court were recognized. Any advances were simply made in good faith, but, though the Natives acknowledged the sums, I never got the money. The second case was in the Upper Waikato, in the Ngatiraukawa land, at Patetere and Waotu, adjoining the properties of Messrs. Buckland and Firth, on the south of the dividing range, between the east and west watersheds, at the back of Tauranga, taking in Te Niho-o-te-Kione, and the Waikato River on the west and south. That was estimated at 240,000 or 300,000 acres. I entered into negotiations for that. 356. On behalf of whom ? —Of myself and others. 357. Who were the others ?—Mr. Buckland, Mr. Russell, Mr. Tothill, Mr. T. Morrin, and myself —six of us. I succeeded in leasing the land, with the understanding that when we got it through theCourt we were to purchase it. Our intention was to divide it into runs and occupy it, or cause it to be occupied. The Government again stepped in, and proclaimed the district under the Public Works Act, and I had to desist. I came down two Sessions ago, to see about the proper adjustment. The Government said it was too much for private individuals to get. that it would be unpopular, and that they could not in any shape or form agree to it. I had had a great deal of hard work in the matter, and had spent a good deal of personal money, as well as the Company's money. I had vouchers to the amount of £3,600, and the Government, after some months, took over my receipts and agreements, and paid £3,600 into Mr. Whitaker's hands for division. 358. How was it divided ?—lt was divided according to the calls which had been paid up by the different individuals. Personally, I took nothing I had nothing for my services, nor had I put in any vouchers for what I had myself expended. I was careless about my expenses, and could not put in proper vouchers, and therefore did not attempt to put in any. I had my share as far as the calls ■were concerned. 359. Then you took service under the Government ?—I did, some time after that. 360. What were the terms upon which you took service ?—£2 2s. a day, and expenses, at first. I concluded that it would not be a paying thing for me to purchase lands on salary, and eventually I got it changed to a commission, and it is not of a very remunerative nature either. 361. Were you entitled to proceed with private transactions at the same time that you dealt for the Government ? —No, I did not consider that I had any right to touch laud in any shape or form. I have bought a farm in the Waikato since I have been in the Government service. I considered that I had no right to traffic in land, and I have not done it.

senden.

3lßt Aug., 1875,

21

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362. Was it a stipulation made with you ?—I do not think there was any mention made of it in my commission, but I certainly understood it and acted up to it. 3G3. Have you made any purchase at any time for Dr. Pollen, at Kaipara ?—Never ; I never had anything to do with his transactions. Mr. Aitkin was the man who purchased his land. 364. What were your relations with Colonel McDonnell in regard to the purchases to the north of Auckland ?—When I went North of course I had everything to learn about the country, as I had never been North before. I stated to Colonel McDonnell my position, that I had been sent North to negotiate for land that the Government required. I knew he was an Agent, or a Land Purchase Commissioner, as he signed himself generally. I said I thought the best way would be that we should travel together throughout the whole of that district. He was guided by me, and acted as interpreter principally. 365. Was he travelling with you under the authority of the Government ? Was he instructed to go with you ?—I cannot say. I saw no such instructions. 366. What were your relations with him ? Did he take your instructions ?—He was guided by me. Ido not think I should have given him instructions—that I should have taken upon me to give him instructions. You understand that when I received the commission, what I had received as pay previously was absorbed into the commission. 367. You state positively that you did not make any offer to Colonel McDonnell to increase his salary, or to make any payments to him yourself ? —I distinctly say I never did, but Colonel McDonnell requested me to endeavour to get him a larger salary from the Government. I attempted to do it in the month of August some two years ago when I came down here. I called on the Native Minister and made both that request and that he should get the Cross or New Zealand Medal. He had talked so much about his wrongs, and believed he was a much injured man, that he almost made me believe so too. It has never been my lot to be with a man who talked so much of his injuries, and really talked such rot, as Colonel McDonnell. He is a disappointed man, and believes himself to be a much injured man. 368. The Chairman.] When you sold to the Government this land of yours —the land of this Company in the Ngatiraukawa district —was it part of the agreement that you were to be employed by the Government ?—No, there was no agreement whatever. 369. No understanding of that kind?— Nothing of the sort; it was an after consideration. Ido not think the money was paid over till long after it was promised. 370. There was no understanding of that kind ?—None whatever. 371. Not with the Native Minister ?—No. 372. Do you know the proportion this £3,600 was shared in between the Company ?—There were certain calls made according to my requirements, and sometimes one person would pay and another would not. The money was not therefore paid equally. 373. You do not know what share each received ? —lt was divided according to the amount of calls paid. Ido not know the exact amount paid to each. 374. Son. Sir D. McLean.] Was Mr. J. S. Macfarlane interested in this Company ?—Yes; I had forgotten his name. There were six ; I only mentioned five before. 375. Were you aware that, as a member of that Company, he had urged upon me the necessity of giving you a portion of the land being negotiated for as a reward for your services ?—I am not aware of that. 376. Or that he had made any representations to the Government on your behalf as a member of the Company ?—I am not aware of that. 377. Mr. Rolleston.] How did you draw moneys to make payments to the Natives ? —I made applications to the Government, requisitions for certain moneys, and they were passed to my credit through Dr. Pollen, or latterly, Major Green, who now holds the position of General Government Agent in Auckland. I have never had money direct from them. 378. In paying the Natives, did you pay them in cash or cheques ? —Sometimes in one way, and sometimes in the other. 379. Mr. Richmond.'] How did the Natives get the cheques cashed ?—The storekeepers would send them to town, if large, and if small they would cash them. 380. Did they charge discount ? —I think they gave the full amount. In several cases I have referred the Natives to the Resident Magistrate, and have promised that I would send the cash to take them up (the cheques). I have done so in two or three cases at Hokianga, with Mr. Yon Stunner. I have not known any case in which the Natives were charged. 381. There was no difficulty in getting the cheques cashed ? —I have known no complaints on the subject. 382. The Chairman.] You know of no case whore the Natives have had to pay discount for getting a cheque cashed ?—No. 383. Mr. Richmond.] Or any difficulty in getting a cheque cashed ? —No, I have not. I have frequently been asked by Natives to give cheques instead of money. [I omitted to mention a cheque of Colonel McDonnell I allowed to be dishonored for reasons which I can explain if necessary.] Witness obtained leave to make a statement, which he did as follows : —lt is evident from the questions which have been asked to-day that certain statements have been made against me by Colonel McDonnell. There is no doubt that a strong feeling of jealousy exists on his part towards me. Since I have been in the North, I consider I have done my work well and faithfully for the Government. It has not been my rule through life, because something has been said against me by another, to turn round upon him, but I feel it my duty to make a few statements, and to put a couple of papers before you which show that the holes Colonel McDonnell lias dug for me, unfortunately he has fallen into himself. I think it is due to myself that I should do this. [Witness put in a document in Maori.] That will show you that he was not quite immaculate in land-purchase transactions. [Witness put in document in English, and also telegram from Sir Donald McLean, enabling him to appear before the Committee of the Provincial Council on Land Purchases.] The piece of land mentioned in the English document came to my knowledge from my being asked to pay for the survey.

Mr. E. T. Bris-

senden.

31st Aug., 1875.

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384. Hon. Sir D. McLean.] Was that block of Kaihu not passed through the Court? —One small block of 2,000 acres at Otawa was, which I recommended that Mr. Stannus Jones should have. Ido not wish to say any more, although there are many other things I could say. I have no desire to injure Colonel McDonnell. When I was appointed to buy lands, I felt myself thoroughly bound to behave straightforwardly, and I have done it. I believe the Government are satisfied; if not, they ought to be. I have laboured very hard, and I think I have done my work thoroughly.

senden.

31st Aug., 1875.

Thtjbsday, 2nd Septembeb, 1875. Mr. Eolleston in the Chair. Sir G-EOEaE Geey, X.C.8., examined on oath by Mr. James Mackay, through the Chairman. 385. Did you, in June last, instruct a person named Wilkinson, a Native interpreter, to proceed to Mercury Bay, to make inquiries respecting the Tairua land purchase and reserve ? —I did, as far as the Native reserve went. 386. Did Mr. Wilkinson, on or about 2nd July, give a report on that subject to you ?—I forget the date, but he gave a report into the Superintendent's office. I have a copy of the report, and will produce it to the Committee on the next day of meeting. 387. In that report, was it stated that O'Halloran and Guildiug went to Mercury Bay in April, and that the Natives asked Guilding to take the management of the reserves there ?—I think I had better refer to the report for that. The question is partly correct and partly incorrect, I mean, and it would take some time t< > explain. 388. Did you receh c one or two reports from Mr. Wilkinson ?—I have no recollection of more than one. 389. Was that report submitted to you twice ? —Several times. 390. When the report was first submitted to you, did it contain a clause in these words, or to this effect:—" After making careful inquiries, I could not find out that Mr. Mackay had been in any way connected with the matter, either by action taken by himself or by communication in any shape or form with the Natives. He, on behalf of the Government, granted the reserve to the Natives at their request, and had not that been done, the balance of the block would not have been the property of the Government, as the Natives were not satisfied with the price per acre." Was that paragraph in the report? —I am unable to say. Mr. Wilkinson had an interview with me on his return, and read certain notes to me, some of which notes I thought unnecessarily introduced Mr. Mackay's name, and I told him that I thought it was desirable —as I had no reason to believe that Mr. Mackay had had anything to do with the reserve himself—to leave his name out of any statement he made. But lam unable to recollect any words of the kind you have mentioned —in fact, it would be impossible for me to do so. He read me notes purporting to show what the results of his inquiry had been, and 1 certainly advised him to leave Mr. Mackay's name out, as there was no accusation against him of having had anything to do with the lease himself. 391. I wish to know whether this report was not written on a certain number of sheets of paper; that one of these sheets was taken out on account of this paragraph being in it; and that then the report was written without the paragraph ; —I mean that the sheet on which the paragraph occurred was destroyed, and its contents written on another sheet of paper (less the paragraph), and that the new sheet of paper was not, in consequence, filled up ? —My answer to that is that I really cannot tell whether the sheet was left out or not. My advice to Mr. Wilkinson was simply to omit all reference to Mr. Mackay, because I had no reason to believe that he was implicated in the lease. I cannot tell what the precise words I used were. 392. But it was in consequence of something having been said about me in the report that Mr. Wilkinson was asked not to mention my name ? —I only meant to intimate that I had no desire to bring his name unnecessarily into it. 393. Had you not, in your capacity as Superintendent of the Province of Auckland, in answer to deputations at the Thames, previously said it was a disgraceful thing (or words to that effect) that an officer of the Government should be able to make a reserve, take it at a place suitable for a township, and lease it for himself; —I am only going on what I saw in newspapers and what was told me? —I really do not recollect precisely what I said; but I will repeat what I have always thought. What I thought was this: that it was a disgraceful thing that a reserve should have been made for Natives in a block of land purchased by the Government; that that reserve should not have been selected for a considerable period of time; that ultimately it should have been so selected as to take out of the reserve what was believed to be a very valuable town site ; and that officers connected with the Government should have proceeded, without the knowledge of the Government, to try to lease a very valuable property of that kind. I have always thought that; I have frequently expressed it; and I believe still that I was right in holding those views. 394. You said " officers of the Government." I suppose you mean officers or reputed officers of the Government?—l mean officers whom I supposed to be officers of the Government at the time, but who, it now appears, were only reputed officers of the Government. I consider that the transaction was a very disgraceful one. 395. I'am not asking for Sir George Grey's opinion of what he thought, but I wish to know whether he ever expressed those views ? —I have often done so. I have always held those views, and have often expressed them, and shall always express them. 396. I wish to know whether you applied those expressions to me ? —I had no intention of applying them to Mr. Mackay if he was not implicated in the transaction. 397. That is not a direct answer. I wish to know whether you did express them towards me or not; not whether you did not wish to do it if I was not guilty, but whether you did so?—I cannot recollect ever applying them to Mr. Mackay. It will be found that I have got one of the copies of the injunc-

Mr. Jlolleston, __f._3._2.

2nd Sept., 1875,

23

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tion, and I was so particular on the subject, that I will show the Committee on another occasion that where it was stated in the injunction that Mr. O'Halloran was Mr. Mackay's brother-in-law, I struck the words out with my own hands, because I believed that by doing so I was removing any imputation on Mr. Mackay that ought not to be put upon him. 398. He is not my brother-in-law, but my wife's. Such being the case, and your not desiring Mr. Wilkinson even to mention my name, how is it I was joined in a writ issued by your attorney or yourself in the Supreme Court ?—The solicitor can explain that. I had nothing whatever to do with drawing the writ, and I simply tried to modify the most objectionable passages in it afterwards. I was told that the application for the injunction was put in the necessary legal forms. 399. But if ypu could use your discretion in striking out the objectionable part about Mr. O'Halloran being my brother-in-law, do you not think it was much more objectionable to leave my name in it when you believed I was an innocent person, and had nothing to do with the reserve ?—I had nothing to do with putting Mr. Mackay's name in the injunction in the first place; and in the second place, I did not believe that Mr. Mackay was an innocent person. I neither believed he was innocent nor guilty. I hoped he was not connected with it. 400. Have you a copy of the declaration which was attached to that writ ? I have handed in one copy ; have you the other? —I do not know. I have two copies of the injunction, which were sent down to me by the solicitor. 401. Ido not wish to take up the time of the Committee unnecessarily; but if these documents (now in Sir George Grey's possession) are laid on the table, I should like to look at them to refresh my memory, and possibly ask questions arising out of them. My reason for asking such a thing is this: that my conduct has been impugned, and that, therefore, lam in the position of a defendant, and have a right to make the request. 402. Sir George Grey.] Ido not regard Mr. Mackay as a defendant in this case. He has been summoned as a witness, and I think it is an improper remark to make to the Committee that he is here as a defendant. I also would submit to the Committee that it is a wrong position to place a Superintendent of a province in, to call upon him to answer as to the acts of the person who acts as Provincial Solicitor in drawing the writs, with which I have nothing to do. Such is a very unusual proceeding. I think the Solicitor himself should be sent for. As I stated before, I certainly —to prevent, as far as possible, blame being cast on a person before inquiry had been made —got words struck out of the application for the injunction upon consultation with the Solicitor. As to particulars, I think the Solicitor himself should be summoned, and the Superintendent ought really not to be required to speak on such subjects; because the Committee will see that the position I am placed in is this: that lam called, not by the Committee as a witness, but by a witness as a witness. I think it is altogether a very wrong proceeding. Until some accusation ia made against Mr. Mackay, Ido not think these things ought properly to go on. 403. Mr. Mackay.] Sir George Grey has, I think, misunderstood my meaning in the matter. What I wish to say is, that I consider I am in the position of a defendant in this way: That accusations have been made against me by the Provincial Government at Auckland, and also by his Honor the Superintendent—perhaps not directly, but indirectly. The public prints have made accusations against me respecting this Tairua reserve. Sir George Grey himself says he has given expressions of opinion about this matter, and I consider that my character is called into question in this business, I having been the person engaged by the General Government to carry on these negotiations for the Tairua land purchase; and if, as has been stated, anything has been done improperly regarding that purchase or the reserve, who is the person who will be blamed ? I am. So, therefore, lam in the position of a defendant—not before this Committee, but before the public. Accusations have been made against me when my hands were tied, and I was not allowed to defend myself. I was told by the Government that the matter would come before a Committee of the House, avid that I would be dealt fairly with. I have been subjected to unjust attacks both on my public and private character; and I ask that when the papers are laid on the table I may be allowed an opportunity of seeing them. Colonel McDonnell examined on oath. 404. The Chairman.'] Have you read this letter from the Natives, dated the 25th of July, 1875 ?— Yes. 405. Did you purchase that piece of land ?—I do not know whether I could really answer yes or no to that, but I will tell you the whole thing about it. I negotiated for it 406. For yourself ? —Partly for myself and partiy for Mr. Stannus Jones, and partly for the Government. My first negotiation was for the Government. 407. Then there is another piece of land mentioned by Mr. Dalton, of 2,000 acres in the Tutamoe block. Did you purchase that ? —lt is not the Tutamoe, but it is adjacent to it. The acreage is all wrong. Ido not know whether it was in 1828, 1829, or 1830, but it was one of these dates, before I was born, that my father came to Hokianga, and he went to the Kaipara River overland with two Europeans now living, a man named Hardiman, called Bob the Jew, and Jack Mann. He went overland by Mangahu, and when he got to the Native settlement on that side there was a large meeting of Natives, and they wished him to open up the Kaipara Harbour and survey the bar, so that Europeans could come and reside on the Kaipara, in the same manner as they had commenced to reside on the Hokianga. My father said it would cost him a good deal to build a vessel and to round and survey the bar, and that if he did so they must make him some recompense for his trouble and expense. He returned from the Wairoa to Hokianga, and built a vessel. 408. Is this an old land claim ? —Yes, the deed was given to me by my father in 1851, and my sister went home to England and lost it I saw Parore one day, and said, " Where is the land you gave my father with the kauri on it ?" He said the land was gone. I went back in 1873, the same year that that note would be written in. After I had finished the arrangement at Tutamoe and Kairara with, the Natives, Parore said he would divide the money with the other Natives, and next morning he said

Mr. Molleston, M.H.M.

2nd Sept., 1875.

Col. McDonnell.

2nd Sept., 1875

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24

Col. McDonnell.

that he would give me Mangakirikiri and Waipouitaka block in lieu of the one he had formerly given to my father. 409. Mr. Thomson.] You say this paper does not refer to the 2,000 acres ?—No, that refers to a, block of land called Otaua. 410. What is the acreage of it ? —4,125 acres. 411. Mr. Molleston.] Are you negotiating this for the Government or for yourself?— For Mr. Stannus Jones ; and I was to have a share in it if the Government permitted Mr. Jones to have it; if not, it was to belong to the Government. 412. Were you negotiating this simultaneously with the purchases you were making for the Government ?—At the same time. 413. Did the Government know you were negotiating for it ?—I believe they" did. 414. Did you ever tell the Government so ?—No ; but I did in this way. A list of lands was given to Sir Donald McLean the other day, at Haruru (Bay of Islands), and when we came to that name, I said to Sir D. McLean, " That block of land ought not to be in the schedule. That is the land for Mr. Stannus Jones. 415. Hon. Sir D. McLean.] I do not recollect any reference to this block of land?—lt was in. the schedule. 416. Who brought the list ?—I think either Mr. Kemp or Mr. Brissenden. 417. Mr. Thomson.] Have you any written document showing that the Government were aware you were purchasing this land for yourself and another gentleman ? —I had not myself any written document from the Government about that land. I refused to negotiate the block of land for Jones or for myself. I refused point-blank to do anything about that land in the first instance. 418. The Ghairvmn.] Were you in Auckland on the 25th of July? —Yes. 419. Was this executed in your presence (letter from Natives) ?—Yes; the document is in my own handwriting. 420. Mr. Rolleston.] Were you still an officer of the Government at the time that was conducted, and it is for yourself and others, not for the Government ?—Yes. 421. The Chairman. What is the extent of this land ?—4,125 acres. I believe half of it has since been purchased for the Government. 422. Mr. Sheehan.] You have said you were negotiating this block of land for the Government in the first instance. Did the Government refuse to allow the negotiation ?—No. 423. The Chairman.] Have the Government got half the land now ?—More than half. Mr Brissenden has swindled Mr. Stannus Jones and myself. 424. Is Mr. Stannus Jones here ?—No ; he is in Auckland.

2nd Sept., 1875,

Tuesday, 7th Septembeb, 1875. Mr. Dignan, M.H.E., examined on oath. 425. The Chairman] Do you remember Mr. "Wilkinson, a Native interpreter, returning to Auckland from an inquiry I had sent him on, and his coming into my room where I was sitting as Superintendent ?—Tes. 426. Were you present at the time ?—I was present when he returned. 427. "Would, you state what passed with regard to some omissions I asked him to make about Mr. Mackay's name ? —When he returned he was announced. I was in the room at the time, in the office. He came in, and said that he had a report, and one he could sufficiently give an explanation of as to what he had done. Tour Honor was called out. I think we were interrupted two or three times during the period the interpreter was there. Instead of reading the entire report in your presence, he was giving you an explanation when you returned. He said, " I positively assure you, Sir George, that Mr. Mackay had nothing whatever to do with it." You returned in reply, " But I did not want you to say anything about Mr. Mackay at all. I sent you to inquire in regard to the Natives, and the position of the reserve." He said, " I have it in the report." You said that he ought not to have a reference to Mr. Mackay in the report; that you did not want to have anything to do with Mr. Mackay in the report. The interpreter seemed a little confused as to what he would do with his report, and he asked your permission to write it again. You said he might do what he liked, that you did not want to have anything to do with Mr. Mackay. He asked permission to go out, and take that portion from the report. That is what I recollect about the matter. I may add that he talked about O'Hallorau and Guilding, and about a man who kept a house of entertainment having made arrangements for the lease of a portion of the reserve. Mr. W. H. Geace examined on oath (Mr. Maekay being present). 428. The Chairman.~\ Were you ever appointed or employed by me as my agent at the Thames? —No, not for any purpose whatever. I was in conversation with Mr. Mackay at one time at the Metropolitan Hotel, and he charged me with being your agent, I said I was not your agent, that I had never had anything to do with you, and that what I might have sent was of my own free will. He said, "That makes you an agent." I said, " No." He said, " Have you not been paid by Sir George Grey ?" I said, " No, I have never received a penny." 429. Are you aware that Crippen had a share given him in the Tairua Prospectors' Claim ?—Yes. 430. Are you aware how many scrip that share was divided into ?—I believe Mr. O'Halloran had an interest in the share, and I will tell you how I know it. Mr. Tookey and myself were acting for the Natives who were protesting against the granting of the license, and on the day before the case came on, Mr. O'Halloran came to us and said, "Do not oppose the granting of the license, and we will

Mr. Dignan, M.H.R.

7th Sept., 1875,

Mr. W. H. Grace.

7th Sept. 1875,

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settle the matter, and give you 250 scrip and £100 in cash." "We demurred, when Mr. O'Halloran said, if we would take it, we might make money as he had done, and that he had made £400 out of some of his shares already. 431. How many scrip was the whole share divided into ? —lnto 1,000 scrip shares. 432. What did they sell for each ?—Some time before the lawsuit, some time after the Company was formed, the scrip were sold at from £2. They went up to about £3 just before the lawsuit; then they went down a little, and directly after the lawsuit was settled they went to £4. Just before the lawsuit, I believe Crippen transferred all his shares away, transferred them into the name of another person. They had a meeting of the shareholders of the Tairua Company to appoint directors, and at that time Crippen was not registered. He had transferred all his shares. I believe he still holds shares. 433. Did you write a letter to me as Superintendent of Auckland, giving information about Guilding and O'Halloran's lease?—l did write that letter to you. 434. Do you remember my writing a letter to you, or sending a telegram to you ?—You sent a telegram. 435. In point of fact your letter was written to me as a public officer, and I asked you whether I could make use of it ?■ —Yes, I telegraphed back that I thought it would be rather premature. After that, I saw one of the Natives connected with the block, and I asked him what had been done about the Tairua reserve, and he said that O'Halloran and Guilding had been at Mercury Bay trying to lease the reserve for Mr. Mackay. I asked if he was sure it was for Mr. Mackay, and not for Guilding, and he said he thought it was for Mr. Mackay. I said, " What is the rent ?" and he said ■" £100 a year;" but we want more, and that is why lam here now. That occurred in Shortknd. (Questions put by Mr. Mackay through the Chairman.) 436. I wish to ask you if you have not told people at Shortland —told Mr. Guilding—that you were an agent of Sir George Grey's ? —Never. Guilding came to me one day—when Mr. Fryer, I think, and two or three others were present —and said that his firm was no good, that he had not got anything out of Ohinemuri, Tairua, or Hikutaia, but that he had got them this time, and was going to stick to the reserve at Tairua. 437. His firm ! What did he mean by " his firm " ? —He meant your office. 438. Afterwards he came to Mr. Tookey and myself, and said, " If you like I will join you, and give you all the information you want about the purchases in the district of Hauraki. I will join you, but I would like a guarantee of a certain sum of money." I called Mr. Tookey aside, and said, "We cannot trust him, for if he would throw Mr. Mackay overboard, who has been his best friend, I think he will throw us over." We decided not to have anything more to do with him. 439. You are certain that what you are saying is correct, and that the overtures did not come from Tookey to Guilding (Mr. Mackay read a telegram from Mr. Guilding to him of the 6th of July) ?—Witness produced and read a letter he had just received from Mr. Tookey, dated the 31st of August. 440. Did not that conversation which O'Halloran had with you respecting scrip refer to scrip to be given to the Natives? —I may say that most of the conversation was with Tookey. There was not much with me. O'Halloran did not tell us whom the scrip were from. Tookey said, " Well, I think we can come to some arrangement if you give us a transfer of the shares now, and the cash." O'Halloran went away, saying he would see us by-and-by, and when he came back he said he could not do it. 441. Are you not aware that the Company transferred scrip to O'Halloran, that 1,000 scrip was to be given to the Natives, and that 500 were held by O'Halloran? —I am not aware of that. 442. To hold them in trust until the questions between the Natives were settled ? —I was not aware of that. 443. Are you aware that the Natives were at that time disputing as to the division of that scrip ? —I never knew of any dispute about that scrip. What the Natives were making a noise about was that they had not been dealt fairly with, and had not got the interests they were entitled to in the Prospectors' Claim. 444. Son. Sir D. McLean.~\ What Natives were these ?—Te Moananui, Tanumeha, JJiwai te Kiore, Hohepa Paraone, Matiu Poone, and Tautoru Tawa. 445. Mi: Mackay.] You have not heard that 500 scrip were set aside for Nikorima and 500 for Taipari ?—I have heard that. I have a letter from Nikorima about that matter. 440. Are you aware that when the Tairua Company did not get the claim reserved as promised, nhat they then refused to give the Natives the scrip ?—I recollect speaking to Mr. Graham about it. He said they had not been treated fairly by the Government, and by all means for the Natives to go it and make their claim ; that the Natives had not been dealt with fairly either. 447. Is it within your knowledge that the Company objected to giving the scrip because they had not got what was promised? —I am not aware of that. I think I spoke to Mr. Graham, and he told me to go to you. 448. Are you aware that the scrip for Taipari has not yet been handed over by the Company ?—I am aware that Nikorima stopped the transfer, saying Taipari had no right to have any. 449. Are you sure that the transfer was not made to O'Halloran? —I do not know ; I should have thought that the person to hold a transfer of that description would be the Manager or Secretary of the Company. I do not know whether O'Halloran had it or not. Nikorima told me it had beeu done in your office, and that he had been deceived in the matter. 450. What had been done in my office ? —The transfer of those 500 shares. 451. You have heard that there was a transfer?—l heard there was a transfer. 452. You did not hear that was a transfer from Nikorima of 500 shares to O'Halloran in trust until the question was settled ? —I heard it was a transfer from Nikorima to Taipari of 500 shares. 453. You were acting, I believe, as agent for Te Moananui and Tautoru in this matter ?—Yes. 4—1.1.

Mr. W. H. Grace. 7tU Sept., 1875. \

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Mr. W. H. Grace.

454. Did your clients inform you that they came to me on the 26th of July ? —I know they saw you, and were written to by you. 455. Do you know that Te Moananui and Tautoru came to me ?—Yes. 456. Did they inform you what offer they made ? —They told me they would not agree to anything you had said. 457. They did not inform you that they had stated that if they got the scrip, and not Taipari, that they would withdraw from all opposition ? —No ; they did not. You told me yourself that the shares they were to have had were those shares of Nikorima's, which ought to have been divided amongst them. I never heard from you or from them about the 500 shares for Taipari. 458. They did tell you that I said they ought to have some portions of the shares Nikorima got ? —They told me you wanted them to agree to open the Pakirarahi block, but they would not agree. You told me the shares the Maoris ought to have had were those shares Nikorima had. 459. Did you ever say to me that these shares had better be given up to them: Taipari's shares ? —I do not think I said " Given up to them." I think I said, " The best thing you can do is to settle the matter, and to bring ii to a close, that these Natives should get shares." 460. Did you not, two or three days ago, say they should get compensation or that scrip ? —Not that scrip. I said to you, " Don't you think the best thing would be to settle with the Maoris and give them compensation ?" You said, "I think I will try to get 250 scrip for them." 461. You did not say anything about these scrip of Taipari's on that occasion? —Not that I know of. 462. The Chairman.] Did you suggest to Mr. Mackay to give them that scrip ? —Not that particular scrip. Ido not think I said anything about scrip. 463. Mr. Mackay.] Were you informed that I had any interest in that Tairua Claim, the Prospectors' Claim, by any one ? —I heard a rumour that you were interested in it. 464. Did any of these parties, O'Halloran, or Nikorima, or any of the Natives, tell you that I had an interest in it ? —Nikorima says in his letter that the share is yours, but it is put in Crippen's name. 465. Have you not stated that the reason why you went against me in all these matters was this,, because I had ceased to employ you to do my business as an interpreter ?—No. 466. Did you not, outside the Government gate, state that to me, about three weeks ago ? —I said to you you had not treated me fairly. The principal reason why I went against you was, that I tried to get some timber for Holdship, and you would not allow me. I got a notice from you saying that if I persisted you would report me to the Government, and get my license cancelled, or something to that effect. When I went to the Natives, they told me that you were trying to buy the timber for Gibbons. That is the reason I went against you. 467. I want you to say what you stated at the gate.—l said it was very funny you had taken a man who had written articles against you, and had thrown me overboard, who had helped you. I said that was one reason why I had gone against you.

7th Sept., 1875,

Wednesday, 16th September, 1875. Mr. J. E. Dalton examined on oath. 468. The Chairman.'] Have you been employed by Mr. Brissenden ?—Yes. 469. In what position ? —I was employed as interpreter. 470. Not as a surveyor ?—"Well, I was for a short time. 471. Have you had many conversations with him, when employed by him ? —Tes, I have had a great number, because I have been employed upwards of three years by him. 472. Has he ever told you anything regarding being authorized to purchase lands for private persons ? —He told me he was employed to excise certain blocks. 473. Whom for?—He did not mention the parties' names. 474. Did he tell you who empowered him to do that ? —He did not. In fact, I did not ask him. Of course, I took his word. 475. Have you yourself excised any blocks for him ?—No, I have not. I had his authority to do so, but I was recalled by the Government. 476. For whom was the block excised ? —Mr. Dargaville. It was on the Wairoa. 477. How large was that block ? —I cannot say, because I did not survey it. 478. Was it a timber block ? —There was timber on the block. 479. Was it timber blocks you were authorized to excise, or blocks generally?—l cannot b& perfectly certain, but I think it was timber blocks. 480. Have you assisted him to acquire lands about Kaipara Heads ? —No. 481. In the Kaipara district ?—I travelled with him all over the district, acting as his interpreter. Mr. Nelson was really the man. 482. Were any blocks excised there for individuals ? —Not that I am aware of. Colonel McDonnell was here called in. 483. Mr. Bolleston.] You understood, with regard to the excision of these blocks, that they were for private individuals, and not for the Government?— With regard to this block at Wairoa, I did. 484. Was Mr. Brissenden then acting as Agent for the Government ? —He was. 485. The Chairman.'] Were you employed by Mr. Brissenden at the head of the Waikato at onetime ? —I was employed in the Patetere country. 486. What were jrour duties there ? —My duties in the neighbourhood were generally to pick up information, and to keep the Natives quiet as regards selling land. 487. What do you mean by keeping the Natives quiet with regard to selling land ? —Well, I can hardly tell you, my instructions were so vague.

Mr. J. E. Dalton.

16th Sept., 1875

27

I.—l.

488. "Was it to prevent them selling land to other persons ?—Yes. 489. Even to the Government ?—Yes. 490. Did you buy against the Government at all ? —I did not exactly buy. I told the Natives I could get them a higher price. 491. You told them that you could get them a higher price than the Government would give ?— Yes. 492. In fact, you did your best to prevent them selling to the Government?— These were my nstructions and orders. 493. Mr. JRolleston.'] Acting for Mr. Brissenden ? —At that time—yes. That was prior to his appointment under the Government. 494. The Chairman.'] Did you try to acquire lands for these people —Mr. Brissenden and others P —I did. 495. They would sell their rights to the Government afterwards ?—I suppose so. 496. At an advantage ? —"Well, I do not know about an advantage, because the price they were willing to give was far above the Government price. 497. Was the block proclaimed at the time by the Government as one in which Europeans could not purchase land ? —I am not certain, but I think it was. 498. What was the date of your being employed there; a letter here gives the date as Ist October, ] 873?— That would be the date. [The following letter was then read: —" The Auckland Agency Offices.—The Auckland Land and Estate Department, Estate Agency Offices, High Street.—Shortland Street, Ist October, 1873. —My dear Sir, —I believe the Land Company, that is, Howard, McFarlane, Morrin, Earl, Major Wilson, &c, &c, will take over the whole of our liens. Mr. Brissenden, who is their agent, told me he could not arrange with the Government at Wellington to their satisfaction, and that if they (the Government) did not come to terms they would take over the land themselves. They have sent my son down there ; they find him a horse, and pay all his expenses, and one guinea per day for him to move about between Cambridge and Maketu, just to feel the pulse of the Natives, and keep them in good humour, as they fear, if left to themselves, C. 0. Davis's influence may be too much for them. Of course this is strictly confidential. They are anxious that no one should suspect their object. I was to request that you would take no further steps just at present. They mean business, or they would not go to the expense of sending my son down. I believe their object is to get as much land into their own hands as possible, and then to compel the Government to take it at their own price. Of course, they are not doing this for their-pleasure, nor for the public good; they are the wrong parties for that. I requested Myers to stay proceedings until further instructed. —Yours very faithfully, P. J. Damon.—Allan O'Neill, Esq., J.P."] 499. You were employed by Brissenden in the North. I mean in the Wairoa district, and every place north of Auckland ?—Yes. 500. Did you assist him in purchasing lands there ? —I did, 501. Did you ever bid against him?—No, I was employed by him ; in fact, all my duties were to interpret for him. 502. Were you present when the Natives were paid by him ?—On many occasions. 503. How were they paid; in money, or by cheques ? —Sometimes by money, and sometimes by cheques. 504. When they were paid in cheques, who cashed their cheques for them ?—The storekeepers, generally. If the cheques were for a large amount, Mr. Yon Stunner, at Hokianga, generally used to cash them. 505. No person with Mr. Brissenden cashed them ?—No person. I believe I offered to cash a cheque once, but I had not sufficient money to do it; it was a small cheque ; that was the only time. 506. What was the amount of the cheque you offered to cash ? —To the best of my recollection, £15, but lam not sure; it may have been £20; however, it was a small cheque. 507. Did you offer the Natives any money for that cheque ?-—I did. 508. How much did you offer to them ?"—For the £15, £14. I offered them £1 less than the amount of the cheque, whatever it was. 509. That was for the trouble of cashing the cheque ? —Yes. 510. Did Mr. Brissenden employ you to survey 100,000 acres of land in the North ?—He employed me to survey a block called Tutamoe and Kairara. It was supposed to contain 100,000 acres of land. 511. Did you enter into any arrangement with him as to the payment; as to whether he was to get any portion of the payment to be made to you for that survey ?—A commission was talked over between us, but it was never carried out, because I never finished the survey of the block. 512. Was Mr. Dargaville's block the only block that was excised? —Well, I cannot say positively, but I believe it was. There may have been other blocks excised, but Ido not know the particulars of them ; I only go by hearsay. 513. Who would know that ?—I believe Mr. Hardiman. 514. Who was he ?—He was a half-caste, employed by Mr. Brissenden. 515. Would Mr. Nelson know it also, do you suppose ?—Yes. 51G. Does this letter from your father truly describe your duties about Patetere, " to feel the pulse of the Natives, and keep them in good humour " ? —Yes, at that time it did. 517. "As they fear, if left to themselves, C. O. Davis's influence may be too much for them ? " —Yes. 518. Did you hear Mr. Brissenden, when he was their agent, state that he made any arrangement ■with the Government in Wellington to the satisfaction of the Government?—l did not hear that. The only person I knew in the matter was Mr. Brissenden. 519. Colonel McDonnell, through the Chairman.] Did Mr. Brissenden ever tell you he had permission from the Government to buy land for himself and others ?—Mr. Brissenden told me that he had power to excise blocks. 520. For himself and others?—l cannot exactly remember for himself; but I was under the impression that it was so.

Mr. J. E. Dalton.

16th Sept., 1875.

I.—l

28

Mr. J. E. Dalton.

• 521. Has he made this statement to you more than once ? —Tes, I have often heard him say so. 522. Has he ever mentioned this to any one else in your presence ?—I think so, but lam not perfectly certain. 523. Do you remember his telling Mr. John Webster that he had power to excise blocks in reference to Omahuta, and that he would do so in his case?—No, I think I was not present at that time. 524. Did he tell Mr. Yon Stunner that he held this power, to buy land for others, from the Government, and promised to get him a block ?—I have heard Mr. Yon Stunner say so. 525. The Chair man.~\ Did Mr. Brissenden procure Mr. Yon Stunner any land to your knowledge ?—I think not, but he was to have done so. 526. Tou mean he was to have done so, but did not ?—From what Mr. Yon Stunner told me, he was to have done so in a block I surveyed, called Manganui o wae. 527. Do you remember being at Mr. Wright's, Mangakahia, in October last (ISth), that is, yourself, Mr. Brissenden, and Colonel McDonnell, when you were on your way to Kaihu ?—I do. 528. Do you remember any conversation that took place at that time in reference to kauri timber, and Mr. Brissenden saying he wished he could manage to get a block of kauri for himself, alluding to Mr. Thomas Eussell's contract with the Home Government ?—I cannot say I heard Mr. Brissenden say that; but I often heard him say he would like to get kauri for himself. I cannot distinctly say that I remember that conversation. 529. Did he say he would like to get such a block for himself, alluding to Mr. Thomas Russell's contract with the Home Government?—l do not remember mention being made of Mr. Eussell's contract. 530. Do you remember hearing any conversation between Colonel McDonnell and Mr. Brissenden when you were camped for dinner on the banks of the Wairoa, on your way to Kaihu, in the punt, having reference to kauri timber and Mr. Eussell?—l cannot say that I remember Mr. Eussell's name being mentioned, but I recollect Colonel McDonnell and Mr. Brissenden talking about kauri timber. 531. About acquiring a block of kauri land ?—I cannot say that. We were pulling down the river; there were kauri bushes on each side of it, and I remember them talking about the bushes. 532. About kauri bushes ? —Tes. 533. Do you remember being at Kaihu on the 19th or 20th of October, 1874 ? —I remember being there in company with Colonel McDonnell and Mr. Brissenden. I suppose that was the date. 534. Do you remember Colonel McDonnell giving you his memorandum book to copy out of it the names of the boundaries of Tutamoe and Kairara, that he had purchased for the Government ?— I do. 535. Do you recognize this (memorandum book handed in by Colonel McDonnell) as the book in question, and are these the boundaries ? —[The following entry from the memorandum book was here read:—" Boundaries of land offered for sale by the Mangakahia Natives, and Parore of Te Wairoa : Commencing at the surveyed line of the Karaka block, Te Waitoto, on to the line of Pekapekarau, thence to Walton's boundary, thence towards the Wairoa (still on Walton's boundary line) to Uekiki Stream, across to Tai Mahue, on to the road to Kairara Eakapou, on to the Kowhai, and along the Awakino Creek to the mouth of Waiwhaka Tahitahi on to Erikarikari ki Orere Whakaupoko te Hua a Kawhite, thence on to the Karaka line."] —I cannot say that I recognize the book, but those are the boundaries. 536. Did you adhere to those boundaries ? —I did, as far as I possibly could, until I was stopped by the Government. 537. Who stopped you on behalf of the Government ? —Mr. Percy Smith. 538. Did you show Colonel McDonnell a letter from Mr. Brissenden to yourself, dated 12th November, 1874 ? —I did. I think that is the date. 539. Will you produce and read that letter to the Committee ?—The witness handed in and read the following letter: —" Kaihu, 12th November, 1874. —Dear Sir, —I have just been interviewed by Messrs. Dargaville and Parore about the piece of land you have taken into the survey of Tutamoe block. I enclose a sketch of the locality. Tou should not have gone to the east bank of Tangowahihne Creek, but kept the west bank. I have arranged with Parore that such shall be the case, so you will please return and cut out the piece encroached upon. Mr. Dargaville is to pay for all expenses you are put to, such as loss of acreage, loss of time, &c, &c. Have no fear, I will see that he fulfils that part of his agreement. I am most anxious to see you for many reasons. I am informed you wrote an account of your work to McDonnell. I am somewhat astonished not to have been the one chosen by you for such statements. I have received the Patetere survey money for you, and have stuck to it till we meet, for there was so much said about it, and so many claimants, I thought it best for you to make the distribution. lam now off to Wanganui with Mr. Nelson. Shall make the Bay of Islands, go North, return, this way via Hokianga in about three weeks. Be sure to leave directions here for me where you are to be found. If in future you wish to write about your work, or have any other information, please remember that I am the one to write to. —Tours truly, E. T. Beissenden." 540. Did you show this letter to Colonel McDonnell yesterday ?—I think it was the day I arrived, here. 541. Did you tell Mr. Brissenden you had shown this letter to Colonel McDonnell ?—I did; yesterday, I think. 542. Did the boundaries told you by Colonel McDonnell include the piece of timbered land that was excised for Dargaville ?—They did. 543. Did Mr. Brissenden tell you what authority he had for excising the land ? —He did not. All the information I received is contained in that letter. 544. Was it good kauri timber land? —Tes; I think there was a great deal of kauri upon that piece ; but I will not be sure. 545. What do you estimate as its size ?—lt is impossible to say within a few acres.

16th Sept., 1875,

29

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546. Did you ever tell Colonel McDonnell you thought it was about 5,000 or 6,000 acres ?—Yes, T did. Of course, this is only a rough estimate. I cannot say within a thousand acres or so. It is a large block of kauri, to the best of my belief. 547. Under what arrangements were you surveying with respect to your paying a percentage to Mr. Brissenden ?—I was to pay Mr. Nelson, through Mr. Brissenden, a percentage for any survey 1 might do in the Northern district. 548. "What was the amount of the percentage ? —There was no exact sum fixed upon. We spoke about several sums. At one tima I was to give half; at another time it was another amount. There was nothing decidedly fixed upon. 549. Who paid you for your survey ? —I never have been paid. 550. Who were to pay you ? —The Government. 551. You were to pay Mr. Brissenden a percentage out of what you received from the Government ? —I was to pay Mr. Nelson through Mr. Brissenden, but I have no doubt Colonel McDonnell understood that it was to be paid to Mr. Brissenden himself, and that I was to pay the money. I think Mr. Nelson was the party who received the money. Mr. Brissenden's name was brought in. 552. Then it was a similar arrangement with Mr. Nelson, you believe ? —Yes. 553. Who was Mr. Nelson ?—He was a Native interpreter. 554. To Mr. Brissenden ?—Yes. 555. Who paid Mr. Nelson?—l do not know, I am sure. To the best of my belief, Mr. Brissenden. 556. Were you to get a survey of large blocks purchased for the Government on the same understanding?—l was. 557. Mr. Botteston.~] Might I ask that that question may be repeated? 558. The Chairman.^ Was it the understanding that a percentage of 50 per cent, was to be given?—lt was talked over, but no arrangement was finally made. 559. Would you have been prepared to have given 50 per cent. ?—I cannot say that I should. 560. What would you have given?—lo per cent, is the usual thing, I believe, to Native interpreters. 561. Was Mr. Brissenden a Native interpreter?— No. 562. Then this was an unusual transaction ?—I should consider it so. 563. But 50 per cent, was talked about ? —Yes. 564. He was to get you the surveying of all the large blocks he purchased ?—Yes, he was. Mr. Nelson was to take the surveys, he being a surveyor as well as an interpreter, and to hand them over to me. 565. Do you know if any other surveyors were to pay Mr. Brissenden a percentage upon their work ? —I believe so, but I cannot state so positively. 566. Name the surveyors ? —I have heard Mr. Blake, but of course it is only hearsay. 567. Who else ? —Mr. Davis, I think, but I am not quite certain. 568. Do you remember any conversations with Colonel McDonnell on the subject of your paying any percentage ?—I remember Colonel McDonnell telling me that it was very foolish on my part to do so; that it was a thing he had never done in his life; and that it was the first time he had ever heard of it being done. 569. Do you know if Mr. Brissenden negotiated a block of land in the neighbourhood of Whangaroa or Manganui, named Kauri Putete, for a Mr. Holdship ? —I believe he did; but it was only hearsay. 570. Was that block of land excised out of another block ? —I cannot say. 571. Do you know any one who was employed by Mr. Brissenden to negotiate this or to purchase other lands for other people than the Government? —I think Mr. Hardiman. 572. Do you know if Hardiman was sent round to Whangaroa, Mongonui, and Ahipara ? —He was sent there. 573. Do you know if he was sent there expressly to tell the Natives in those districts not to sell any more land to Colonel McDonnell, but to wait for Mr. Brissenden, who had more money than McDonnell, and would give them a higher price ? —I cannot say what his business was. 574. Did you ever hear that he was sent on that business ? —I have heard since I have been here from Colonel McDonnell. 575. Neither from the Europeans nor the Natives there ? —No. 576. Do you know of any transactions between Mr. Brissenden and the Pakanae Natives about the Pakanae land ? —That would be Pakanae Flat. I heard 30s. an acre had been offered for it. 577. Just relate anything you know about that transaction to the Committee ?—I really know nothing about the transaction. I only heard from the Natives that they had been offered 30s. an acre. 578. By Mr. Brissenden ?—No, by Mr. Nelson. 579. On behalf of Mr. Brissenden"?—Well, they did not say that. 580. Was Mr. Nelson Mr. Brissenden's agent ? —Yes. 581. Hon. Sir D. McLean^] Was this land at Pakanae Heads ? —Yes. 582. The Chairman.] Do you know of any transactions between Witana Papahia and Mr. Brissenden about buying kauri bushes or land, either himself or any private parties? —I cannot say I do. 583. Have you heard of any such transactions ?—I have not, with regard to kauri timber. 584. Have you had any communication with any other Native ? —With the Natives generally in the district. 585. What have you heard, or what do you know ? —I believe Mr. Brissenden tried to lease or purchase —I would not bo certain which now —the bushes for a Melbourne Company, with which he was in some way connected, but how I cannot say. He sent me down with the papers connected with the Whangape district to Mr. Nelson. 586. To Mr. Nelson : with what instructions ?—To give Mr. Nelson the papers, and to come back and join Colonel McDonnell, who was lying sick at Ohaeawai.

Mr. J. E. Dalton.

16th Sept., 1875.

30

I.—l

587. Are you aware of £100 being given to Witaua Papahia for land at Omahuta or Whangape for private individuals ? —I am aware of £100 being given, but whether on account of private individuals or on account of the Government, I cannot say. 588. When and where was it given ?—lt was given in Auckland, I believe, but what the date was I cannot say. 589. Was that £100 spent by Mr. Brissenden on Government account? —I do not know. I was not present at the payment. 590. You do not know whether it was Government or private money ? —I believe it was Government money. 591. Do you know whether Paoratuhaere received the money in this way from Mr. Brissenden in Auckland or elsewhere ?—I do not. 592. Did Mr. Brissenden ever tell you to try and purchase back a cheque drawn by himself on the Bank of New Zealand for £20 for less than that amount P—Mr. Brissenden told me it would be a good ■way of making money. 593. Do you recollect a specific cheque for £20 ?—I recollect a cheque, but I think the amount was £15. I will not be certain. 594. Was the cheque an advance for the Government for the purchase of land ?—lt was. 595. Had you any money of your own to do this with ? —I had no money of my own at that time. 596. Whose money was it to be done with ?—lt was money I got from Mr. Brissenden. I asked Mr. Brissenden for the money and he gave it me. 597. Eelate all that took place upon that occasion.—lf I recollect aright, Mr. Brissenden said to me I might as well make a shilling or two that way as in any other. 598. In what way d i you mean ? —Cashing cheques. During the evening that Mr. Brissenden gave the cheque, I asked him for some money, and he gave me £14. The Natives went with the cheque to Mr. Gough, who had no money in the house. The Natives came back to me, and I said I would give them £14 for it. 599. Mr. Rolleston.] Mr. Brissenden gave you the cash ? —Yes. 600. Mr. Richmond.] As payment for the survey, or work done, I suppose ?—I asked Mr. Brissenden for the money. 601. For the money you had earned? —Yes. 602. Mr. Rolleston.~\ Was it money on account ? —lt was. 603. Do I understand that Mr. Brissenden suggested to you that it would be a good way of making money for you to cash cheques at a discount ? —He told me a good deal of money could be made by cashing cheques. 604. He was to give the cheques, and you to cash them ?—He did not say he would give the cheques; he said money could be made in that way. 605. The Chairman.'] Do you know the name of the block of land on account of which this cheque was given ? —I cannot say that I do. 606. Was the block called Awarua ?—I think that was the name of the block, but I have forgotten it. 607. Who ultimately cashed the cheque ?—I do not know. 608. Where did this affair of the cheque take place ? —At Ohaeawai. 609. Did Mr. Brissenden tell you a good thing could be made by transactions of this nature with " the Brown Brothers " ? —I heard him say a good thing could be made. 610. With " the Brown Brothers " ? —I cannot remember him using those words. I heard him say money could be made in that way. 611. Eeverting to the question of the land in the neighbourhood of Patetere, you have said that you were sent there to prevent the Government acquiring land ? —The first time ; yes. 612. Son. Sir D. McLean.] At what time were you sent there ? —I cannot give the exact date. 613. By whom were you employed? —By Mr. Brissenden. 614. The Chairman.'] Was it one of your instructions to double any offer made by the Government ? —I think it was. 615. Did you ever tell your father that such was one of your instructions ?—I think I have. 616. Son. Sir D. McLean.] Was any other surveyor beside you employed by the Company ?—I was not employed as a surveyor by the Company. 617. Whom were you acting for ?—I was acting for myself as a surveyor. 618. The Chairman.] What I should like to know is the date of the occasion when you were sent by Brissenden to Rotorua, intending to come overland and join him in Wellington ? —I cannot give the date when I started. 619. Where did you start from ? —I started from Ahipara. 620. Then Mr. Brissenden was at that time in the employ of the Government ?—Yes. 621. And he sent you to prevent the Government purchasing land ? —To pick up all the information I could in the district. 622. And to embarrass the Government purchasers ? You must give a distinct answer to the question ?—That was, I believe, my instructions. 623. Was that instruction, to embarrass the Government purchases, given you by Mr. Brissenden ?—That was the purport of my instructions from him. 624. And you were to oppose the Government ?—To oppose Messrs. Mitchell and Davis. 625. Son. Sir D. McLean.] By whom were Messrs Mitchell and Davis employed at that time ?— By the Government. 626. Are you sure ? —They might have been employed by private individuals. 627. Do you mean lately, at the present time, or a year ago?—lt was about twelve months ago. It was last June I think. On the sth of August last I was on my way to town. 628. The Chairman.] One of your instructions then was to offer double the amount the Government offered ? —Not then.

Mr. J. E. Dalton,

16fch Sept., 1875,

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629. What were your instructions ? —No price was mentioned. I was not to offer money exactly for the land. I was merely to put everything I could in the way of Mitchell and Davis ; and as far as I could to debar them from getting land. 630. Tour father states that one of your instructions was "to double any offer made by the Government " ?—I think my father must have meant the time before. Ido not recollect receiving instructions to that effect the last time. 631. Son. SirD. McLean.] What were your instructions at this time?—To pick up all I could, and to proceed down to Wellington, and to meet Mr. Brissenden here. 632. The Chairman.'] Anything else? —And to stop Mitchell and Davis as much as I possibly could. 633. To prevent them acquiring land ? —Yes, in the Taupo district. 634. Mr. Rolleston asked if Sir Donald McLean would be good enough to inform the Committee when and how long Messrs. Davis and Mitchell had been employed by the Government. 635. Son. Sir D. McLean.] I cannot tell you the exact date. The arrangement with Messrs. Mitchell and Davis was, I fancy, about 1873, but I would not be positive. 636. Was it continued during 1874 ?—I expect they were in the employ of the Government at that time. They had been employed by companies in purchasing land at Taupo, and they were taken over by the Government. The dates are in the printed returns laid on the table of the House. 637. Mr. O'Neill, to the witness Dalton.] Were you aware that Messrs. Davis and Mitchell were purchasing for the Government ?—I was under that impression. 638. I think you stated Mr. Brissenden was purchasing some land for a Mr. Holdship ?—I do not know whether he was purchasing, but I believe he was in some way connected with it. 639. At the time he was acting for the Government ?—Yes, he was. 640. Son. Sir D. ifcLean.] You have stated that Mr. Percy Smith stopped your survey. I want to know if there was any particular reason for stopping the survey at that time ?—I was not authorized by the Government to do that particular survey. Mr. Brissenden authorized me. 641. Are you aware that there was a dispute between two tribes of Natives about that particular block ?—I believe there was. That was one of the reasons Mr. Brissenden sent me down to take that particular survey. 642. Mr. Percy Smith is the officer of the Government who looks after these surveys ? —Yes. 643. And he instructed you to discontinue the survey ? —He did. 644. The Chairman.] Your father states that he was present when Mr. Brissenden arranged for you to go to Botorua ?—He was. 645. And a part of your instructions was to prevent the Government getting an acre of land, if possible ?—Yes, but this was the first time I went down to Eotorua. 646. But the first time you did not go to oppose Messrs. Davis and Mitchell? —Then I went to prevent the Natives selling the land to anybody. 647. But your father says he was present the second time ? —He was not present the second time, because it took place at Ahipara. It only took place the first time. 648. Who employed you the first time to go down and prevent the Natives selling land to the Government ?—Mr. Brissenden. 649. About what date was that ?—The date of the letter handed in—September, 1873. 650. Mr. Rolleston.] Was Mr. Brissenden then in the employ of the Government ? —I do not remember the exact date of his employment. 651. Son. Sir D. McLean here informed the Committee that this was before Mr. Brissenden was in the employ of the Government. 652. Sir G. Ore//.] I see your father goes on to say that he was not present the last time ?—He was not. 653. This last time was after Mr. Brissenden had been appointed Land Purchase Commissioner in the North ? —lt was. 654. Were your instructions, " After effecting your purpose at Eotorua to push overland to Wellington, there to have joined Mr. Brissenden?" —Yes. 655. And you only got as far as Napier, owing to the snow ? —I tried to cross Taupo Lake, but the snow was too thick on the hills I had to cross. 656. Did you ever tell your father one of your instructions at that time was to double any offers made by the Government. He says that positively :" I know one of his instructions were to double any offer made by the Government ?"—I do not recollect telling my father the last time that one of my instructions was to double any offers made by the Government. 657. You had no such instructions, then ? —To the best of my recollection I had not. 658. Would you have done it to stop Mitchell and Davis ? —Certainly I should. I should have carried out my instructious. 659. I understand your instructions were to prevent Mitchell and Davis buying land ? —Exactly. 660. And with that ohject you would have offered twice as much as the Government did? —I might have offered it. 661. You stated just now you would? —I would have done it. 662. Mr. Rolleston.] Did Mr. Brissenden ever tell you what was his object in opposing Mitchell and Davis?—He did not. He left me to draw my own conclusions. 663. What conclusions did you draw? —That he preferred this to the Northern district. 664. How do you mean ?—That he would sooner be stationed at Taupo than in the Northern district to purchase. 665. His object therefore was by this indirect means to get himself transferred?— Yes, that was the conclusion I came to. 666. Mr. Richmond.] By the failure of Mitchell and Davis ? —Yes. 667. Had you any idea why he preferred the Taupo district to the Northern one ? —There was a larger scope of country there.

Mr. J. E. Dalton, 16th Sept., 1875.

a great deal of trouble, inasmuch as the people receiving the money on Otongaroa were not the

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Mr.J.E. Dalton.

668. That he would make more money, you mean ? —I suppose so. 669. Mr. O'Neill.] Did you ever pay Mr. Brissenden or Mr. Nelson any money out of the commissions you may have received ? —No. 670. Are you still employed for Mr. Brissenden ?—No, I am contracting under the Government. 671. Mr. Rolleston.] Is there any recognized custom among surveyors of paying their employers any portion of the money paid to them by the Government, if they are so employed?—l cannot say with regard to the Government, but with private purchasers we generally give the interpreters 10 per cent, out of the survey. 672. Hon. Sir D. McLean.'] There is nothing of the kind in Government purchases. 673. Mr. Eolleston.] I would ask, is it permitted in the Public Service that a surveyor should pay a percentage to the Native interpreter. 674. Hon. Sir D. McLean replied that the Government had only the surveyor to deal with, and they did not allow the surveyors to accept anything. He is under Btrict instructions of Captain Heale, to whose office they are sent when done. Mr. Percy Smith is his deputy at the North, and certifies to the whole of the surveys. Any surveyor found paying anything to the interpreters, would not be continued in the service. That would be the short and the long of it. 675 Mr. Rolleston, to the witness.] Do you consider that contract surveyors are justified in paying commission in consideration of their employment by officers of the Government ? —I do not consider they are justified in doing so. 676. The Chairman.] I will put the question in another way. Mr. Brissenden was to get you the survey, and in consideration of his obtaining it for you, you were to give him a percentage ?—That would have been it if we had come to any final arrangement. 677. Did you come to any final arrangement ?—No. 678. What is the practice of private individuals who buy land through surveyors or interpreters? How much do they allow the surveyors ? —lO per cent, for the employment. 679. Has that been a common practice in the North ?—lt has. 680. In all private purchases ? —ln most of them. 681. Mr. O'Neill.] Under the understanding or arrangement with Mr. Brissenden, to whom was the money to be given ? —lt was given to the interpreter, Mr. Nelson. 682. The Chairman.] Who were the persons really to get it ? —lt was Mr. Brissenden who spoke to me about it. 683. Mr. Nelson's name was only used as a blind?— That was my impression, but I will not say so positively. 684. Mr. Richmond.] How were you paid ?—My expenses were given by cheque. 685. By whom ?—Mr. Brissenden. 686. Out of his private funds, or out of Government money ?—I cannot say. 687. Did you understand you were getting it from him privately ? —Yes. 688. The Chairman.] Had you been paid by the Government before ? —Never. 689. Mr. Rolleston.] What is your connection with Mr. Heale's department ? —I have been engaged as a contract surveyor. 690. Since then you have also been employed by Mr. Brissenden ? —Certainly not. 691. How are you paid for contract surveys ? —-By mileage rates. 692. The Chairman.] What is the amount? —I send in my vouchers to Mr. Heale, who then sends me a cheque. 693. To you personally ?—To myself, or any one I like to appoint. 694. Whom have you appointed up to the present time to receive your cheques ? —Mr. Yon Stunner and Mr. Bryers. 695. Are those the only persons ?—I gave Mr. Brissenden a voucher for £30, but that was a private matter between ourselves. This voucher has never yet been presented. 696. Mr. Rolleston.] How came he to receive money from you when he was indebted to you ?— He told me he was rather pushed for money, and I lent him the £30. 697. The Chairman.] Were you at Kaihu on November 14th, 1874, and on that date did you write a letter to Mr. Brissenden? —I may have written one. 698. Were you there about that time ? —I think that was the time I was there. 699. Was a Mr. William Graham up there at the time ?—Yes. 700. Who were Graham's employers ? —I do not know. 701. You state, in your letter, —" lam getting on very well with the survey of the Tutamoe block, having completed about thirty miles, including a small block for Colonel McDonnell of about 2,000 acres of very good land. I have had considerable difficulty with some of my lines. William Graham is here, and doing the best he can, of course, for his employers, but I am thankful to say I have arranged it satisfactorily, and I do not anticipate any further trouble on that score. The whole of the block, when finished, will contain about 45,000 acres, with some very fine kauri forest upon it." —I think the work was done for the owners of the Kopuru mill. 702. Was the land he was working at included in a block that had been proclaimed by the Government ?—Partly so. His land overlapped the Government land in some places. 703. Then partly it was outside any proclaimed block ? —lt was mostly outside and along the banks of the river.

16th Sept., 1875.

Tuesday, 21st September, 1875. Mr. W. H. Gbace re-examined on oath. 704. The Chairman.] Do you know anything about land having been reserved for any of Mr. Mackay's clerks up the Eiver Thames ?—I do not know whether they can be said to be reserved, but I know of two or three transactions in which they were concerned. There was one large block which.

Mr. W. X. Grace.

21_t Sept., 1875,

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33

one of Mr. Mackay's clerks was to have got. There was the Hukutaia Gold Field Township. I may start from Block XXVIL, at Shortland, which was taken out of the gold field and turned into a township. Nobody, I suppose, had the power to take it out of the gold field except the Government Agent. That was leased to Mr. Mackay in his own name. 705. What is the extent of this Block XXVII. ?—lt is about 150 acres. It is a part of the township of Shortland now. 70G. Is it leased as a town ?—The block was cut up into allotments, and the allotments were sublet to Europeans. At Hikutaia, I helped Mr. Mackay to put that through the Native Land Coui't. Mr. Mackay could reserve certain parts out of the gold field for the Natives. There was a block there reserved by Mr. Mackay—the only available place for a township. That was reserved by Mr. Mackay for the Natives, and then it was leased in Mr. H. T. Howe's name, who was a surveyor in Mr. Mackay's employ. An advertisement appeared in the papers stating that anybody wantiug allotments at Hikutaia was to apply at Mr. Mackay's office, at Shortland, and by paying a deposit of £5 they would get an allotment. I forget whether that £5 was on account of rent. 1 think it was. 707. What was the end of that ? —The gold field did not turn out. It was proclaimed a gold field, but the prospects were bad and the people forsook it, and of course the township matter fell through. Ido not know what Mr. Mackay has done with the lease. I got some of the signatures to the lease myself. There was a lease, signed by the Natives, for twenty-one years. 708. You know that Mr. Mackay was partner in that lease —that it was not Mr. Howe's ? —I understood so. Mr. O'Halloran and I used often to converse about the cost of the survey, and what profits would be got out of the township—between sixty and seventy allotments were taken up, realizing over £300. All the business was done in Mr. Mackay's office. I never saw Mr. Eowe at Shortland at the time. He was laying out the township. There was another transaction I may speak of. I was trying to lease a piece of land at Te Aroha for a private individual. Mr. Mackay has himself bought a large block of land, of 4,000 acres or more. 709. On which side of the river is that? —On the western side of the Thames River, at Waitoa. All the land in the Thames District was proclaimed under the Public Works and Immigration Act— proclaimed so that people were prohibited from dealing with it. That was the belief there. Mr. Mackay has since told me that that only applied to land which had not been through the Court. However, then I got a notice from Mr. Mackay, telling me not to deal with the Natives for any land. Mr. O'Halloran has got an agreement to lease 7,000 acres, a block at the base of Te Aroha Mountain, on the western side of the Thames River. I was present when money was paid to some Natives on account for this land. 710. In what year was that ? —lt was about last August twelvemonths, in 1874, when the Natives were preparing for a large feast in the Thames District. 7 LI. When was Mr. Mackay's own block purchased? —Before that; some time before that. I cannot tell how long. 712. Twelve months before ?—I should think more than that. There was one small piece adjoining at Waihekau. I got a Native woman to convey that to Mr. Mackay within the last twelve months. It was signed at the Native meeting, before Captain Fraser. It was twice signed, once at Tararu, but there had been some mistake in the spelling of Mr. Mackay's name, and it had to be redrawn, and the woman signed it again where the meeting was held. That was on the 22nd August, 1874. I think £50 was the consideration that was given for it. 713. Have you anything further to state about leases in the Thames District ?—I that certain individuals have had privileges to buy land and to deal with bush, while others have been stopped. At Ohinemuri, I was trying to buy timber for Mr. Holdship. I was served with a notice one day from Mr. Mackay, saying that if I tried to buy this timber I would be reported to the Government, and would get my licence cancelled. I went to the Natives, who had received from me £200 of Mr. Holdship's money, and told them that Mr. Mackay would not allow me to deal with them. Mr. Mackay has since tried to buy the bush for Mr. Gibbons, and the land for the Government. That ■was what the Natives told me. 714. Has the bush been bought for anybody ? —I have not troubled myself about it. I could not get it. I was told that I must not persist in dealing with it, and I left it. I tried to get the mone} r back from the Natives. 715. Did you get the money back ? —No; the Natives say they will stick to their bargain with us. In another instance I bought a piece of bush between the Thames and Ohinemuri for Mr. Holdship, and paid the Natives about £156, I think. In that instance, also, Mr. Mackay told me not to de.-il in the matter; and afterwards Mr. Gibbons got the Maoris to take some money, and said to them he would pay buck Holdship's money. Mr. Gibbons has commenced to work on it, and has not been told to remove from off the block by the Government Agent. Where we could not deal with the Natives, Mr. Gibbons is allowed to do so. In one of Mr. Mackay's reports there is a statement that Mr. Gibbons was in negotiation for some timber, and that therefore he would recognize his claim when he was buying the land for the Government, or something to that effect. The two Messrs. Fryer Brothers and Mr. ltuddock paid the Maoris £350 on this timber. Mr. Mackay told us that we could not get it— that it was for Mr. Gibbons. The Natives that took our money say they never received any money whatever from Gibbons —that they had never been in negotiation with him. The only money I know that Mr. Gibbons has paid them was through his bushmen crossing the boundary line, and cutting a few trees down in this block, for which the Messrs. Fryer and Ruddock paid, and the Natives made Mr. Gibbons pay 255. a tree. That is the only money they have received —that which was given on account of trees cut down by mistake. The Natives in the Thames have received a great deal of money through orders. I know one instance where a Native had got an order from Mr. Mackay, and I went to the store with him, and told him not to produce the order till we knew the price of the goods. We selected the goods, and he told us the price. When the Native pulled out the order, the storekeeper said that he could not supply the goods at the price he had named on an order from Mr. Mackay. One piece of woollen stuff, I recollect, was named at 2s. Gd. per yard; but the storekeeper said he must s—l. 1.

Mr. W. S. Graoe.

21st Sept., 1875.

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34

Mr. W. H. Grace.

charge 3s. 6d. a yard for it on an order. He said, " I cannot supply the goods unless at that price. If cash were paid I could sell it at 2s. 6d. ; but as it is an order from Mr. Mackay, you must pay 3s. 6d." In several instances storemen have offered me commission if I would take to them all the orders I could get. 716. Are these orders made upon any particular storemen ? —All orders for flour or sugar, or articles of that kind, were made upon Mr. Adlam ; while Goldwater, Williams, or Wilson (threedrapers), always received the orders for drapery goods. 717. Could you have taken orders to any other ?—No ; the order was made out upon the particular storekeeper. 718. Who made these orders out?—O'Halloran used always to make them out. I know that a private individual at that particular time was dealing with Natives, and he said they might have flour and sugar. They got it at £16 a ton, while Adlam was charging the Natives for flour —not first-class flour—£2o a ton on these orders. 719. Are these orders given for goods, or are they for any particular amount of money on the face of them ?—These orders state that so and so wants so many yards of cloth, or so many blankets and shawls. No price was put down. The Native took that order; of course, he never saw the bill. 720. Were these orders given in payment for land ?—Yes ; the Natives were not paid in money but by these orders. I have known Natives say " Give me money," and to be told that the Government had not sent any money, and that they could not have any. 721. Mr. Rolleston.] Do not the orders purport to be for articles to such an extent ?—No; 1 never saw an order made in that way. I have made out a list of orders. I used to assist O'Halloran, as he did not speak Maori. The Maoris were asked what they wanted, and they would say so many shawls, and that would be put down, and so on, in the order. The Native never knew how much money he was going to get. 722. The Chairman.'] Do I understand that the order said goods of a certain quantity ? —Yes. 723. And that then the shopkeeper supplied the goods? —Yes, and the bill was sent in to Mr. Mackay. 724. Then the Native found he had received so much money? —When it came to a settlement, it was found that this particular tribe owed so much money, and the question came, what land it was to be charged to. When these orders were given the land was probably not surveyed, and it was impossible to tell how much each was entitled to. 725. Mr. Rolleston.~\ Can you say whether Mr. Mackay or Mr. O'Halloran got any commission?— I cannot tell whether they got any commission. I would not like to say so. I have been offered commission myself. 726. The Chairman.'] How much did they offer you ? —They said if I would bring the orders they would give me some commission. I declined to enter into any arrangement. 727. When you went with these orders, were you able to bargain for the Natives to get the goods cheaper ?—I only went in one instance with a Native named Meremaua. 728. Do the Natives generally take the orders themselves? —Yes. 729. And they did not know what they paid for the goods ?—No, unless they asked the storeman. I have been on two or three occasions with some of the old Ohinemuri men, who previous to that time did not come to Shortland. On one occasion we went into Goldwater's with an order. They received a lot of goods —shawls and things of that sort —and I do not recollect their asking what the price was. 730. I understand from your evidence that, the Government at least have a great power of patronage in selecting the people on whom these orders are given ? —Yes, the Natives knew that they could not give a good title to a private individual, but by coming to the Government they would receive some money at any rate. When they came to settle up, all the money was mixed up in a total and charged to land. « 731. There are a great many storekeepers and shopkeepers in Grahamstown and Shortland, and by the Government selecting two or three to whom these orders were made, they had a power of exercising a great influence in the place over certain persons ? —There is no doubt that certain storekeepers got all the orders ; the others had no chance of supplying goods to these Natives. The Natives could not go to any shop they liked; they had to go where the orders were directed to. 732. The orders were made to particular storekeepers ? —Yes. If the goods were flour or sugar, the orders went to Adlam; the drapery orders were divided, as equally as we could, either to Goldwater, or Williams, or Wilson. I am speaking of the time when I had something to do with it, in July or August twelve months. 733. Mr. O'Neill.] What time was Block XXVII. leased?—l think in January 1869. It was passed through the Court in May 1868. Mr. Mackay leased it from the Natives, and afterwards, just before he went through the Bankruptcy Court, it was transferred to Oliver Mason Creagh. 734. What was the date of the Hikutaia affair ?—I forget exactly the date when Hikutaia was opened as a gold field, 735. Where is Gibbons's mill situated? —-He has a saw-mill of his own, and has also leased a mill from the Hauraki Saw-mill Company, both on the Thames Eiver.

21st Sept., 1875,

Thursday, 23rd September. Sir D. McLean re-examined on oath. 736. The Chairman.] AYe wish to ask you a question about Colonel McDonnell getting land. Mr. Stannus Jones says that he came to AVellington and saw you about a piece of land called Otawa, and wrote you a letter about it ?—He did. 737. And that you told him it was all right ? —I do not recollect telling him that. [Chairman read Mr. S. Jones's letter.] Ido not remember giving him any sanction. I was strict in preventing Europeans from getting land where the Government were purchasing, unless they had made

Hon. Sir D. McLean.

23rd Sept., 1875

35

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arrangements previously with the Natives. I acted in the same manner with everybody. If any one had rights prior to the Government purchasing, of course I could not interfere, and did not. 738. You do not recollect giving him this authority?—No, I do not recollect giving him authority for 5,000 acres. 739. The real point is this ;he undoubtedly told McDonnell this ; he admits it; and upon that he, with Mr. Brissenden, proceeded to negotiate for the block. The accusation arose against McDonnell, of having bought for himself. He makes a statement that it was for Mr. Jones, and that Mr. Jones had your authority ?—I think Colonel McDonnell stated that he had done so without any authority from the Government. I remember perfectly that Mr. Jones did write me a letter here in Wellington with reference to some land. 740. You did not distinctly tell him that it was all right ?—I have no recollection of doing so. I have made inquiries into the matter by telegram. 1 think the whole of the correspondence, including Mr. Jones's letter, is on the table of the House. I heard that Mr. Jones was very much embittered against the Government for preventing him from acquiring land iv the North. He was there, witli a Mr. Yates, endeavouring to get the best of the country, and of course it was the interest of the Government to try and prevent him. 741. Was it arranged that Mr. Dargaville should have some land ?—Certainly not. I never heard his name in connection with land till the other day. I told Mr. Brissenden not to interfere with any persons who had already entered into arrangements for the purchase of land from the Natives, and to abstain from meddling with them. 742. Who was to determine whether they had done so or not ? —lt was easily found out on the spot whether any arrangement existed between the Natives and Europeans. 743. How would it be found out ? —These are matters of public notoriety. A purchase of land is always well known where it takes place. 744. Did you hear of a case in which Major Green was concerned, in which he claimed to have purchased land up the Thames ?—lt.was stated in the papers —I know of it in no other way —and was not denied, so far as I have seen, that the agreement was antedated by twelve months in order to make it appear that it was come to with the Natives before the date of the Proclamation ? —1 heard some rumour about that when I was in Auckland, but I know nothing of the particulars. I was told that the rumour had been circulated by a man named Alley, who was formerly a settler in Hawke's Bay, an utterly unreliable character. I heard he had been circulating these reports. 745. I only mention this to show that some Court of investigation is necessary in order to decide upon such claims ?—I quite agree that a Court would be a very good thing. But these transactions are public. They have to pass through a Court before private individuals can obtain any right. 74G. What was the date of the Act enabling the Government to issue Proclamations exempting land from the operation of the Act ?—The first Immigration and Public Works Act was in 1870, and there were additional Acts in 1872, 1873, and 1874. Mr. G. E. D. O'Halloean examined on oath. 747. The Chairman.'] In his evidence before this Committee, with reference to the share iv the Tairua Prospectors' Claim, Mr. Mackay states, —" The conversation related by Mr. Graham did take place with me, except that I did not say that O'Halloran was a Government officer, which would have been incorrect. I said I would not accept any share in the claim, and objected to O'Halloran doing so, as he was connected with me by marriage. I suggested that Mr. Graham might give it to Crippen, who had been a faithf jI servant of mine. Mr. Graham said, ' All right, we were always friendly with the Meurants.' He then gave it to Crippen. I have no interest in the claim, direct or indirect." Did Crippen give you half of that share ?—Yes, he gave me half of that share, and I gave him half of a share at Ohinemuri. 748. What did you sell that half for?—l think somewhere about £700; I have not made up the amount. 749. According to this list, the whole share comes to upwards of £2,000 the whole share. You say you only received about £700 ? —Somewhere about £700. I have bought and sold other shares with the money. 750. I thought you stated yesterday that you had received upwards of £800 ?—I said somewhere about £700 or £800, and I think so still. I 751. Did the system prevail at the Thames of making advances to Natives on their land by means of orders or. tradesmen for goods ? —Yes ; Natives would come and ask for advances. They very ofteu used to come to Mr. Mackay, and in the absence of Mr. Mackay they would ask me for advances in goods, and I used to obtain them for them. 752. Did you give orders on storekeepers for certain articles ?—Sometimes an order was given, and sometimes I went with them to the storekeeper. 753. Who were the storekeepers employed ?•—Any storekeeper that the Natives liked to go to. 754. No person had a preference from your department ? —No. 755. Did you generally give the orders on particular persons ? —Yes, generally. 756. Who were they ? —There were a great many —Wilson, Hetherington, Goldwater, Litchficld, Adlam, Murdock; then "at Ohinemuri there was Austin, Bennett, Mitchell, and Cashell; and some in Auckland. There were others at the Thames. 757. Did Mr. Mackay ever give these orders himself? —Yes, I know he did sometimes. 758. How did these people get paid ?—They used to bring in the accounts, and sometimes Mr. Mackay would give them promissory notes for the money when he had no Government funds; at other times he paid cash. The orders accompanied the accounts. 759. They can all be found then ? —Most of them, I think. 760. Mr.'Botteston.~\ Were the orders sent to Wellington ?—No. 761. Sir O. G-reg.] What papers were sent to Wellington ? —Simply the vouchers, which were on

Hon. Sir D. McLean. 23rd Sept., 1875

Mr. G. S. D. O'Salloran. 23rd Sept., 1875.

36

I.—l

the Treasury form, the Contingency Form. The Natives acknowledged to having received a certain sum of money on account of the purchase of a certain block. 762. Were the orders you gave the Natives orders for so much money or for goods ?—For goods. 763. There was no specified amount of money ?—No. 764. Did the tradesmen then determine what the value of the goods was entirely ?—The Natives went and bought the goods and arrranged with the storekeepers as to the price, and if not pleased they sometimes would come back and have their orders changed from one place to another, if they thought they could get their things cheaper. 765. Have you any reason to suppose that the storekeepers made a difference in the price of articles that were given in exchange for those orders and articles given for cash ?—No, I have not; the Natives never complained to me. 766. Have you yourself taken any trouble to see whether the Natives got articles at a fair price ?— I have always considered that the charges made were fair. I have looked through the accounts to see if there were any overcharges. 767. Mr. Richmond.] Did Mr. Mackay know about your getting half of the share which wa» given to Crippen ? —He has known it since. I do not think he knew it at the time he made the arrangement. 768. Why did Crippen give you half the share ?—The share was not considered valuable at thetime. We made an arrangement that he was to have half of a share in a claim at Ohinemuri, and I was to have half the share at Tairua. The Ohinemuri share he considered equally valuable at the time. It was partly because we were in the office together. 769. Did you sell together ? —We sold partly together, and then sold separately. 770. Did these men, in giving a share to Crippen, give it as a sort of tip or bribe ?—I never understood so. I was not present when the share was given. 771. Mr. Rolleston.] What was their object in giving the share ?—I cannot say. Some time before, these people had been in the office, and they said they would give me an interest in the claim. It is a common thing for miners to do. I have been frequently offered shares in claims. 772. Mr. Richmond.] Do you know that Mr. Mackay prohibited them from giving a share to you ?—I have heard so since. I was not there at the time. 773. You say that prospectors are in the habit of giving shares ?—Very frequently. 774. Mr. Rolleston.~] With what object ? —They frequently want people to contribute to work the claim. 775. Mr. Richmond.] Did you pay calls on the share? —Tes, I did. 776. Mr. Rolleston.] You have been acting for a long time privately as an agent for shares ?— No, I have not. 777. Have you any share in the Tairua reserve ? —I have no share. G-uilding has made an arrangement with the Natives to lease, and he told me he would give me an interest in it. 778. Mr. Richmond.] For a consideration? —Yes, I have paid him some money. I have advanced him some money out of the money I received for the share at Tairua, to pay the exj)enses of it. 779. Do you and Mr. G-uilding hold the lease now ? —Mr. G-uilding is endeavouring to get a lease. 780. He has not got it ? —I do not think so. 781. Has he paid rent to the Natives for it ? —He has told me that he has paid money to them. I do not know how much. 782. Mr. Rolleston ] What is the position of the reserve ? Is it Crown-granted to the Natives ?— No. The Natives have pointed out the place. It has been surveyed, and a plan has been forwarded to the Native Land Court. 783. Has the Court given a certificate or any title on which they can deal ?—I believe not. 784. When did you first have an interest in the Tairua reserve ?—I think it was in July of this year. lam not quite sure; June or July. 785. Mr. Richmond.] Did Mr. Mackay, when he knew you had an interest in this share, and alsoin the reserve, express displeasure ? —He said he regretted that I had had anything to do with it. 786. Is that since you have been in Wellington ? —Before he came down. 787. Did he tell you that he had prohibited the miners from giving you the share ?—He told me the share had been offered, and that he had said I had better not have it, as I was in a manner connected with him. 788. Mr. Rolleffon.] Has Mr. Mackay's office at the Thames any indication outside that it is connected with Government ?—There is simply Mr. Mackay's name upon it. 789. Do the Natives understand that he acts for the G-overmnent ? —They understand that he acts for Government in the purchase of Native lands. 790. The Chairman.] Is Guilding an interpreter of Mr. Mackay's ?—He is in his office. 791. Was any arrangement ever made by Mr. Mackay to purchase land up the Thames from the Natives for yourself?— No. 792. He never tried to do it? —Not that I am aware of. 793. Have you heard of any attempt having been made to purchase land for Major Green ? —I have seen something about it in the papers, that is all. 794. Do you know a young man of the name of Nicholls, who was Major Green's agent ? —I heard from the newspapers that he was. 795. Had you any share in the Hikutaia Township ? —I had not. 796. Did you ever manage anything connected with that for Mr. Mackay ? —I did; it was my work in the office. 797. Was Mr. Mackay the owner of the town site ? —There were four or five connected with it— Mr. H. T. Eowe, Mr. Mackay, Mr. Butt, and Mr. Austin, I think. All I had to do with it was receiving applications for allotments in the township. 798. Were these applications received in Mr. Mackay's office ?—Yes; they were received by me, and deposits paid on account, in the office.

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799. Do you know where the lease to Mr. Mackay is of Hikutaia from the Natives ?—I never knew there was one to Mr. Mackay. 800. Did you never see one ? —No ; I saw a lease in favour of Eowe. 801. Where is that? —I do not know, unless Eowe has got it. 802. Did the storekeepers ever offer you a commission for the orders you sent to them for supplying goods to the Natives ? —I think they have. I can hardly be sure. 803. Do you know of any officer in Mackay's office ever having taken any commission ? —I do not. 804. I mean any of his private clerks ?—Guilding and Crippen were the only two there, and I am not aware of their having received any. 805. Have you any idea of the total amount paid to the Natives by way of orders?—No, I cannot tell. 806. Did it amount to several thousand pounds ?—I dare say it would; that at least during all the time. 807. Was much money paid to them ? —Tes, a great deal of money. 80S. How much do you think in money, roughly ? —I cannot say what the total amount has been. The purchases have been extending over three or four years. Sometimes large sums were paid to them in cash. The purchase of the Tairua block was altogether paid in cash. £3,000 was paid in cash in one day. 809. You have never entertained any proposal for taking commission on account of orders ? —I have not. 810. You have not benefited directly or indirectly by the supplying of goods to the Natives ?— No, I have not. 811. Mr. Rolleston.] You arc not aware of any Government officers having done so ? —I am not. I have had nothing to do with any Government officer but Mr. Mackay. 812. What was the general result of making large payments in cash to the Natives ?—ln the case of only a few Natives getting the money they generally kept some of it, but when it was divided among a number they generally drank it, and remained drunk until all the money was gone.

Mr. G. R. D. O'Halloran. 23rd Sept., 1875.

Monday, 27th Septembee, 1875. Sir Donald McLean, re-examined, on oath. [ Witness: —I now hand in a letter written by Colonel McDonnell to me with reference to statements made by Mr. Brissenden to him in connection with land purchases in the North. It was found by me in a box that I had at Auckland before I left that place for Waikato on the 26th January last. This letter was locked up in the box on the 25th January, the day previous to my starting, and in searching for other papers in the box I found it. "When I received it I omitted to read it in the hurry of packing up, and it was put away with my other papers.] 813. The Chairman.] When was it found ? —A few days ago. 814. Mr. Sollestom.~\ I should like to know whether, having read that letter, it does not recall to you now any conversation upon that subject with Colonel McDonnell? —I could not recall any conversation of the same nature as he has told this Committee did take place. He may have said something to me about Mr. Brissenden's purchases, but I do not remember it. 815. Mr. Sheehan.] Would you undertake to say that no such conversation took place ?—No, I would not; but I have no recollection of the conversation. lam aware that Colonel McDonnell and Mr. Brissenden were at variance with each other, and perhaps I did not pay very much attention to the rumours 1 heard about their actions. 816. Mr. Rolleston.~\ You will not say the conversation did not take place ? —I will not say that Colonel McDonnell may not have mentioned something in connection with these purchases to me, but I have no recollection of a conversation such as that narrated in his statement before the Committee, in which he stated that Sir Julius Vogel and others were interested in this timber negotiation. Ido not think the letter bears evidence of that. 817. Mr. Sheehan.] I suppose you will now be disposed to qualify your former evidence ?—Tes. I may state that I thought it was just possible that the letter might have been left in the Native office at Auckland, and I telegraphed to the officer there, but it could not be found. I have already explained how I found it the other day. 818. The Chairman.] On what day did you find it ? —I found it on Friday last, and I have brought it to the Committee at the first meeting which has since been held. 819. Has Colonel McDonnell been informed yet that it has been found ?—No, I thought it my duty to bring it to the Committee. 820. So that he has no information of it yet ? —He is not aware of it yet, but I suppose he will be informed. I have not seen him for some days. 821. Since you found the letter have any proceedings been taken by the Government in reference to Colonel McDonnell which have called his truth and honesty in question ?—I am not aware of any, except that a report had been sent to the Defence Office, that he had taken a letter belonging to Mr. Brissenden, and the matter has been referred to Colonel Lyon with the view of getting an explanation as to how the affair took place. 822. Was any strong language used between Colonel Lyon and Colonel McDonnell, in reference to this letter? —I cannot state exactly, but I know that Colonel Lyon said he would refer to Colonel McDonnell for an explanation, in the usual way. When the complaint was made to the Defence Office, a letter was written to Colonel Lyon, and this letter he was to refer to Colonel McDonnell. 823. Did it occur to your mind that Colonel McDonnell must have suffered under great distress of feelings and anxiety in getting that letter ?—I cannot answer that question. 824. Did it occur to your mind that it might be a great relief to him under the terrible circumstances in which he is placed now, to have known instantly that this letter was found ? —1 neglected in the pressure of business to let him know instantly. I brought it to this Committee at its first sitting.

Son. Sir D. McLean. 27th Sept., 1875.

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Hon. Sir D. McLean. 27th Sept., 1875

825. Mr. Sheehan.] I understand that the letter was accidentally mislaid? —Yes. 826. And in that case, I suppose, no action would have been taken with regard to it ?—I never even read the letter until I found it the other day. 827. Mr. Bradshaw.] You have not seen Colonel McDonnell since then ?—Xo, I have not. 828. Mr. Rolleston.] What you have mentioned about there being communication with Colonel McDonnell from the Defence Office, has nothing to do with this matter ? —No ; nothing whatever. It is merely a matter of discipline. It was alleged that he had taken a private letter belonging to Mr. Brissenden, and Mr. Brissenden reported it to the Defence Office, and Colonel Lyon, who is the officer in charge, sent the letter to Colonel McDonnell, for any explanation he might have to offer. 829. Is Colonel McDonnell a Colonel under the Defence Office ? —-He is a Colonel in the Militia service. 830. Had you any reason to believe, other than Mr. Brissenden's statement, that he had taken the letter?—No; but it is usual when anything of the kind occurs to refer the matter to the officer for explanation. 831. It is simply a letter for explanation?— Yes. 832. And no comment upon it ? —I do not know what was in this letter.

Thursday, 30th September, 1875. Colonel McDonnell re-examined on oath. 833. Mr. SheehanJ (After the passage from Colonel McDonnell's evidence relating to the laying of his letter on Sir D. McLean's table, in Auckland, had been read.) "Was the letter enclosed in an envelope when you delivered it to Sir D. McLean? —-Yes. 834. And addressed to Sir D. McLean ?■—Tes. 835. Mr. Bradshaw.] "Was it sealed?—lt was gummed. The very tip of the envelope was fastened. 836. Hon. Sir D. McLean.'] Did you not state here that you brought the letter up and laid it on my table ?—No, that was a mistake. When I wrote the letter downstairs I put it in an envelope, and addressed it to you, and was on the point of sealing it when I thought I would take it up to you. It was my intention to read the letter to you. 837. The Chairman.'] In your previous evidence, you said that you mentioned, in your conversation with Sir D. McLean, the names of Sir Julius Vogel and Dr. Pollen?—I mentioned the name of Sir Julius Vogel, but I am not certain that I named Dr. Pollen. 838. You said, also, that Sir D. McLean told you to put it in writing ? —Yes. 839. What was the purport of what he said to you P—l said I knew where Mr. Brissenden was, and could bring him up to the office, and Sir D. McLean said there was no necessity for it. Then he asked me whether I would have any objection to put what I had said in writing, and I said I would not, and I did so at once. 840. Mr. Thomson.'] Was the draft written before or after the letter?— They were not written at one and the same time. My first draft was written as it were now, but I afterwards thought I would write it again, and, without moving from my chair, I wrote the letter from this draft that appears in the printed evidence. 841. Ron. Sir D. McLean.] Was that the original draft that you laid before the Committee ?— Yes. 842. The Chairman.] Was there any apprehension in your own mind as to endangering your position if you put the names of Ministers too prominently forward ? —Not at all; because I did not believe that Brissenden had that authority from any member of the Government. There were many reasons which I had for not reporting what Brissenden had told me. I knew that I could keep him from doing those things as long as I remained with him ; but I thought that if I reported him to Sir D. McLean he would be sure to deny it, and Sir D. McLean would have only my bare word. Afterwards I thought my position was endangered, and that it was probable I should go in a few weeks, and that he would then be able to carry out his own plans. I told Sir D. McLean what Brissenden had said Ministers had authorized him to do. Hon. Sir D. McLean re-examined on oath. 843. The Chairman.] We are anxious that you should give us an account of how this letter of the 25th January was found. Was it found as it is? Was it opened or not?—lt was found opened with other papers. It was not in an envelope. 844. Who actually found it ?—Myself. I was looking for some papers relating to Auckland in a travelling box, and I found this paper, and brought it down to the Under Secretary immediately, and told him that as it was an official document he had better take a copy of it, as I intended the original for the Committee. I also told him I was glad it was found, on Colonel McDonnell's account. 845. Was the box in the office here ? —lt was at my own house. The letter was in one of my travelling boxes. I got it on the day before I started from Auckland for Waikato. In the hurry of going away, all the letters that were on the table of my office in Auckland were swept into the box. 84G. Was a clerk with you when you found it ?—No. A clerk was at Auckland on the day I was leaving for Waikato ; and I cleared the table and left next morning early. All the papers on the table were put into the box. 847. Mr. Thomson.] Was this letter in an envelope when it was found? —I think Colonel McDonnell gave an explanation of that in his evidence previously. He said he went down stairs from the office to write it, and I suppose he did not think it necessary to put it in an envelope. 84S. Mr. Richmond^] Was Mr. Davis not there ?—Mr. Davis was the record clerk, and just before I went away he was in town doing some business in connection with the journey to Waikato, and in the hurry of packing up the papers on the table it was put into the box. I went up to Waikato,

Col. McDonnell. 30th Sept., 1875.

Son. Sir D. McLean. 30th Sept., 1875.

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and then along the East Coast. The other day I had occasion to look into thia box for other papers, and among the papers I found this letter. 819. The Chairman. Was any person with you when you found it ?—No. 850. Mr. Bolleston.~] You have no recollection of having read the letter?—l have no recollection of it. In fact, in the hurry it is not likely I had time to read it that day, because people were constantly calling upon me. 851. Mr. Thomson.'] If the letter had been in an envelope, the probability is that you would have seen it ?—Yes ; it would, then have gone down to the office in the usual way for record. It is probable that in that case I should have seen it. 852. Mr. RolJeston.] Mr. Davis's evidence is, that if there was a letter opened, he would take it and record it, but that you opened letters yourself? —-Yes, that was so ; very often official letters came in, and I opened them, and then they were passed on for record. 853. The Chairman.] Colonel McDonnell stated that you had a conversation with him, and you denied it ? —I remember no conversation of the kind. I denied that I remembered any conversation of the kind, but I qualified that at last meeting of the Committee, by stating that the conversation might have taken place. I said it was quite possible it might have taken place, but I had no recollection of it at the time. 854. Mr. Sheehan.] Would you undertake to say that you did not read the letter before you put it away ? —To the best of my recollection, lam almost sure I did not read the letter. It was put away with other papers into this box on the eve of my departure for Waikato, and I suppose there were other letters on the table that day that I had not time to look into, because that day I had very little time to attend to the ordinary office business. 855. But you will not say positively that you did not? —I am almost sure I did not read the letter. lam not sure that Colonel McDonnell might not have made some complaints to me about Mr. Brissenden. 856. The Chairman.] It was a very remarkable statement he says he made to you about these timber blocks being cut out; that must surely have made an impression on ,'your mind ? —That statement he certainly did not make at that time, and I think you have evidence of that yourself from Mr. Webster. Colonel McDonnell said distinctly that he heard Mr. Brissenden state, in Mr. Webster's presence, that these blocks had been excised; and Mr. Webster has sent a reply to you stating that he never heard a word of it; and Dr. Pollen and others have stated before this Committee that they never heard a word of it. 857. Are you aware of what Dalton has stated ? —I am not awai'e of all he has stated, because I was not here during the whole of his examination. 858. Are you aware of what Mr. Stannus Jones has stated ? I read a letter to you the other day from him ? —You read one or two letters the other day. 859. I read Mr. Stannus Jones's note to you the other day. He confirmed Colonel McDonnell's statement as far as Dr. Pollen went, having directed Mr. Brissenden to purchase land for him ?—That is a matter of evidence, which, of course, I can offer no opinion upon. 860. Mr. Sheehan.] Was it a despatch box the letter was put into ? —Yes. 861. And has there been no occasion to refer to that box since your return to Wellington ?— There are several boxes of mine that I travel with. I generally sort the letters, but on this occasion I did not, because when I returned to Wellington the Session was just beginning. 862. The box was practically untouched, then, from the time you put the letters away until the other day ? —Yes. 863. The contents, then had not been regularly sorted, and the box had not been emptied for the purpose of examining the papers ?—No. [Colonel McDonnell's evidence respecting the letter having been taken, Sir D. McLean was asked the following questions : —] 864. Mr. Sheehan.] The letter which has been handed in contains a serious statement in regard to the instructions alleged to have been given to Mr. Brissenden respecting land purchases.—Of course I consider that Mr. Brissenden had no right or authority whatever to buy for Mr. Eussell or anybody else; and if the fact that he was really doing so had come to my knowledge, I should have discontinued to employ him. The principle that I have acted on in these matters was, that where the Government officers were negotiating, it was their duty not to allow private parties to interfere in these negotiations, and that where private parties had previously entered into negotiations, it was not for the Government to interfere. 865. As the head of the department, do you not consider that the letter contained a serious charge against one of your officers, Mr. Brissenden ?—lt has been proved that he had no instructions of that kind. 866. If you had read the letter, would you not have considered that it contained a serious charge against one of your officers p—I should have had it inquired into at once. 867. If you had not been pressed for time, and had had an opportunity of considering the terms of that letter, you would, no doubt, have ordered Brissenden to explain ?—Yes, decidedly. I may state, moreover, that, in consequence of these reports, I made it my personal duty to go to the North, and absolutely inquire into those allegations. I saw both Natives and Europeans, and I was informed on very good authority that most of the allegations were purely " got up," and had no foundation in fact. I took both Colonel McDonnell and Mr. Brissenden with me, and had them face to face ; and during my visit there none of these allegations were in any way proved. I asked a most reliable man, Judge Maning, if he had heard any of these reports, and he said he had not. He told me there were a great many " made-up " reports, and that these were of the same character. 868. That was before you went to the Waikato ? —Yes; I went to the North before going to Waikato. I was told the allegations were entirely without foundation, and afterwards it was proved, when the Native Land Court sat, that the whole of Mr. Brissenden's land transactions were perfectly clear and satisfactory to the Court, and the Natives admitted them. Out of the number of blocks that

Hon. Sir D. McLean,

30th Sept., 1875,

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40

Hon. Sir D. McLean.

he had purchased, only one case of dispute occurred. Mr. Preece said he had seldom met with purchases so well got through. I took every possible step to find out the truth or otherwise of these reports, and I satisfied myself that the public were vindicated. 869. Had Colonel McDonnell made these same complaints to you previously to your going to the North ? —I cannot say at what date Colonel McDonnell made his complaints. He is generally very excited, and comes to head quarters with complaints, but I must say that I have not taken much notice of them, because I have often found that his complaints were merely imaginary grievances. He is evidently a discontented man, and I have always done all I could for him. He himself admits that he had interests in some of those blocks, that were bequeathed to him by his father. I did not wish to be severe on him as he had served the country, and he has had perfect fair-play at my hands. I have found that most of these accusations that he has brought forward can be proved to be without foundation, and they are so proved by the evidence of facts, and the evidence of people who know the transactions. 870. Has Mr. Brissenden been furnished with a copy of this letter ?—No. 871. The Chairman.'] Did you authorize Brissenden to cut out the timber block for Mr. Dargaville, which he did cut out ?—No, he had no authority to do so. I told you so distinctly the other day. 872. You are aware that Stannus Jones states that Mr. Brissenden informed him that he was directed by Dr. Pollen to lease laud for himself ? I read you that letter the other day ? —Yes, you did read that ietter; but I can only state that it seems to me to bo only wasting time after you have Dr. Pollen's testimony that he has never bought a piece of Native land. 873. But this is a question with regard to Mr. Brissenden ? —I cannot answer for his statements. 874. Sir Q-. Grey.~\ I wish to say that for many years Colonel McDonnell served under me, and I certainly did not exper 'nee any of those difficulties myself in respect to him which have been stated by Sir D. McLean to t'.iis Committee. I found him an officer easily managed, and one who conducted very important and diflicult duties very well. I think it* necessary to say that, because he lies under serious allegations. I would ask, further, did you investigate the statement made by Colonel McDonnell, in this letter of 25th January, about Mr. Russell ? —No ; I only found the letter the other day. I may say that I believe Mr. Brissenden never was employed by any private parties to make purchases of that kind whilst he was an officer of the Government. 875. I should like to put the question in another form. Colonel McDonnell states that Mfc. Brissenden informed him that he wished to reserve some of the kauri timber that Colonel McDonnell had reported on for Mr. Thomas Eussell, as that gentleman had a contract from the Admiralty for spars, and that he (Brissenden) had authority from you and Sir J. Vogel to use his own discretion in negotiations of this kind at the time he received his appointment. Was that allegation one of those you inquired into when you went to the North? —I do not think it was. I do not think that was brought prominently before me in any way. I gave Colonel McDonnell and Mr. Brissenden full opportunities of meeting and explaining these things. I went up with a prejudice on my mind that matters were not as they ought to be in the North, but on inquiry I found that there was nothing wrong. 876. Mr. Solleston.] Have you any knowledge whatever of any contract having been entered into for supplying the Admiralty with kauri spars ? —I have heard that such was the case, but I merely heard it as every one else heard it. 877. Has there been no correspondence about it with the Government ?—No, I have not seen any. 878. In the arrangement made by the Government for the purchase of timber land, has reference been had to the intentions of the Government as expressed in the Forest Trees Act ? —ln purchasing timber in the North, I was anxious that all the kauri forests of any value that could be secured should be secured, and also that agricultural land of good quality should be acquired even in preference to forest land. With regard to forests, I was anxious that the Government should get them, rather than that they should pass into the hands of speculators. 579. Do you think that the arrangements of Mr. Russell are consistent with the intentions of the Government as expressed in the Forest Trees Act ?—I refer to the arrangements in respect of the purchase of the Tairua and other blocks P-—They are completely in conformity with the expressed wish and desire of the gentleman who was Superintendent of Auckland at that time. He was written to and asked whether he approved of these purchases, and he so far approved of them that he advanced £2,000 of his own money in order to secure these purchases, and he had repeatedly urged upon the Government the necessity of supplying Mr. Mackay with money, as he was anxious that these lands should be secured. The £200,000 originally granted for the purchase of -Native lands was only expended on the advice of the Superintendent of the province. The Superintendent had been written to on this subject, and his reply was printed and laid on the table of the House. (Sir Donald McLean here read Mr. T. B. Gillies' reply above referred to.) BSO. Mr. Sheehan.~\ I was a member of the Executive, and lam sure that'l and my colleagues had no knowledge of these timber transactions. An advance was made by us to enable Mr. Mackay to buy laud on the Coromandel Peninsula, but I was not aware of any other leases. When the advance was made to Mr. Mackay, I was not aware, nor do I think any other member of the Executive was aware, that these particular lands were saddled with agreements. I do not know, however, that I would have given different advice if I had been aware of it, because I always looked to the securing of gold fields as a matter of moment. 881. Hon. Sir D. McLean.] I believe that the then Superintendent would readily admit that he was quite aware of the agreements of these companies all over that Peninsula, and, at all events, it is a fact that they have been entered into as far back as 1864, and carried on up to 1869. They have been validated by an Act of the General Assembly, and the Government had no other right but the gold mining right originally ceded to them by the Natives, who never agreed to cede the timber. 882. Mr. Bolleston.] Have we not it in evidence that timber growing upon land is part of the land ? —The Government got from time to time from the Natives the right of mining over this laud on which timber was growing, but not the right to the timber. [Sir D. McLean read a letter from Dr.

30th Sept., 1875.

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Pollen, then General Government Agent, to the Minister for Public "Works (Mr. Ormond), on the subject.] The correspondence clearly proves that these timber leases over the land were made with the full concurrence and sanction of the provincial authorities, who alone had the power, under the Immigration and Public "Works Act, to recommend these purchases, and I myself was found fault with for not supplying funds to get the purchases made. A large company with funds at their disposal, •cutting down timber, with saw-mills, could not do so without having the sanction of the Natives. 883. The Chairman.~\ Did Mr. Preece in his letter in any other way inform you that he was to be made principal owner of the 30,000 acres in the Tairua block ?—No. 884. Then the whole of this negotiation went on on the recommendation of the very man who was to get the advantage of it ? What I mean is this: Mr. Preece, in conjunction with Mr. Graham, was to get from Mr. Mackay the timber on the block of 36,000 acres for 99 years. Now he is the writer of a letter to the Government, hurrying it on, and on the recommendation of that person the whole thing takes place. —I, personally, have had no communication with Mr. Preece. nor do I know the whole circumstances, as far as the transaction is concerned. All I take is the broad ground that we never moved in these purchases without reference to the Superintendent. The Superintendent knew perfectly well that the timber was disposed of to these companies. 885. The complaint is that these claims have never been examined? —They have all been through the Native Land Court. 886. The General Government took Mr. Russell's timber claims out of the hands of the Provincial Government ?—No ; these Natives had a legal right to dispose of their rights to the timber ; so j'ou could not take it away and give it to the Government. 887. Then why was it not done in other cases besides Mr. Russell's; is his exempted out of the whole block?— There are several companies there with saw-mills. 888. Yes, but nobody but Mr. Russell is exempted ?—The miners have an absolute right to cut the timber, and they can go and cut it at any time. I have myself heard these people express their ■willingness to encourage miners to go and cut timber. 889. The miners have told me they have been interrupted?— All these agreements are subject to the Act of the General Assembly of 1869—the Validation Act.

Hon. Sir D. McLean.

30th Sept., 1875,

Fbidat, Bth Octobeb, 1875. Mr. James Mackat further examined on oath. S9O. Hon. Sir D. McLean.] I wish you to make a statement to the Committee in reference to tow Mr. Preece became possessed of his interest in the Tairua block. Perhaps you will state what you know of it from the commencement ? —The first acquaintance that I had with the Tairua block was in 1865, when the Natives were quarrelling with Mr. Seccombe about some timber at Puketuhe This ended in a dispute which I had to settle as Civil Commissioner. 891. Had Seccombe any interest in it then? —The interest was first sold to him in 1864 by Dr. Shortland's authority, and the money was paid and the agreement signed. After I left the Government service, I was Seccombe's agent, and I endeavoured to get a title for it through the Native Land Court. The survey of the block was made with the object of securing Seccombe's title. Seccombe asked me on several occasions to sell it for him. He had spent £22,000 or £26,000 on the mill, but it had always been a bad paying thing, and he wanted to get rid of it. Therefore I suggested that he should get a title through the Native Land Court. I was once authorized to oft'er it to Brodgen and Sons, which I did here in Wellington. Mr. Graham made the survey, and after the survey was completed it was arranged to put the land through the Native Land Court. I had more work than I could do in land purchasing, and I made an arrangement with Preece and Graham, who were then land agents in Auckland, to assist me in purchasing land in Mercury Bay and in Tairua and I gave them half the commission that I received from the Government for it. At the time these blocks of land were going through the Court, and before Preece had any idea of taking the timber, he •was going up to Auckland. I was busy with the Natives in the Court, and I asked him to go and see Dr. Pollen as to whether these lands were to be purchased or not. Dr. Pollen said, " You had better make a list of these blocks, and I will see whether they are to be purchased." A list was made and submitted to Mr. Gillies, the then Superintendent of Auckland, who sanctioned the purchase : and, seeing that what I considered Mr. Seccombe's just rights were confirmed to him by a lease, I considered that I was doing what was right, and acting in accordance with the instructions I had received from Mr. Ormonu, that those rights were to be respected. If not, Seccombe would have had the right of cutting timber under the agreement for ever and ever. I have put a copy of that agreement in. The lease was made in the name of Seccombe and Son, and Preeco and Graham bought it from Seccombe, and afterwards took in Mr. Howard and some other person. In the first instance the agreement was made between Preece, Graham, and Seccombe and Sou. Preece bought it from Seccombe and Son. There was no deed between Preece and the Natives to my knowledge. 892. About what time was that purchase by Preece from Seccombe and Son made ?—Just after the sale to the Crown. 893. And Seccombe had a perpetual right to cut timber on the land under the agreement ?—-Yes ; I believe (as near as I can recollect) that the agreement says he is to continue cutting the timber until it is all removed. 894. About what time did the land pass though the Native Land Court? —I think it was some time in 1872 ; perhaps June or July, 1872, but I may be wrong. 895. Had you any interest with Preece in this block ? —None whatever. I was asked if I would go into it with Mr. George McLeod, but I would not do so. I think McLeod was mixed up in the transaction. I did not care to do it, because I had engaged with Preece to give him half the commission. I gave him £400 or £450, which I afterwards got back. 896. The Chairman. —Preece gave you £450?—N0, I lent it to him, and he afterwards returned it. 6—l. 1.

Mr. J. Mackay.

Bth Oct., 1875,

I.—l.

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Mr. J. Mackay,

897; Was it part of the commission ? —lt was to be repaid to me out of commission, I believe. I know that he gave me a three months' bill. 898. Was it money lent or part of commission ? —I gave him the commission separately—about £800 —but this was not part of the commission due to him. 899. Did he use that money to purchase the block ? —I expect so. 900. You were partners then in the commission business for purchases ?—I agreed with Preece in this way: I had certain blocks of land which I had to survey, and I agreed to give him half the commission I received from the Government if he would survey them. 901. Was the Tairua block one of those blocks which he got commission on? —Certainly ; he got one-half as my agent. 902. When you were agent for Seccombe, did you ever state that Seccombe had told you there was only five years' timber left to cut ? —I am not aware of it. The Tairua block was one which at that time I knew very little about. I believe I did telegraph to Seccombe as to how much timber there was. 903. I saw a copy of a telegram in your own handwriting in which you stated that there was only enough timber to last five years left to cut ? —That may be so. As far as I recollect, when I was dealing with Brogden and Sons, they asked me how much cutting there was on the block, and I telegraphed (and I think Mr. John McLeod telegraphed also) to Seccombe, asking for information on the subject. I cannot remember what answer I got; it may have been " five years." Mr. Seccombe himself never knew much about it. If such a thing is in my handwriting, I have no doubt it was so, but I have no recollection of it. 904. Did you some time ago send a telegram to Mr. Graham, saying that he was not really entitled to the lease of the timber over the whole of the block, and that he ought to give up the eastern portion?— Yes, I did, for this reason: I wanted to buy the land for the Government, and I did not think there was any use in his having a lease where there was no timber. Although the external boundaries might include the whole block, I considered he had only a right to the kauri timber. 905. If he was only entitled to a portion, why was the lease given over the whole?—l understand they have merely a lease of the timber; that they have no right to the ground. I thought it would save any bother if they would relinquish that portion. 906. But you believed that they ought to give up that portion ? —I do not think they have any right to anything but the timber and the necessary easements. 907. Then, I would ask, have the miners the right to cut timber on this block, where is the gold field? —If it had come within the original Native agreement, which Tairua did not, there is no doubt that the miners would have had the right to take the kauri at 255. a tree. I know I raised that point in Mr. Russell's case, at Shortland, and Mr. Russell had to give in to me, that the miners would be justified in cutting timber if they paid 255. for each kauri tree, because he took the timber subject to the Native agreement. If the Tairua block had been subject to the agreement, I take it that the jriners would have had a right to claim the privilege of cutting kauri trees on payment of 255. for each, but it became a portion of the gold field after the timber rights had been acquired. !)08. And what water rights have the miners there? —I assume that they have the right to use all the streams, so that they do not injure the driving dams erected by Messrs. Preece and Graham. I take it that all that Messrs. Preece and Graham have is the necessary easements for driving and floating logs. They do not use the water for any other purpose, as their machinery is driven by steam. All the easements they have is merely the right to put up booms and dams. If this were an alluvial gold field, this might interfere with mining operations ; but on a quartz gold field I do not think it makes the slightest difference. In proof of what I say, I may state that I have seen a recent Thames paper, in which a number of rights are applied for on the Tairua stream, and I have not seen that any objection has been made by Messrs Preece and Graham. 909. On the 22nd of September objections were put in ? —I have the Thames Advertiser of late dates, in which it appears that a lot of these rights have been agreed to. 910. The objections have reached me ? —Since that they perhaps have been withdrawn. 911. On the 2nd of October they were not withdrawn ?—I believe they have no right to interfere, unless the booms or dams are interfered with. 912. You stated that, in fixing Secombe's lease, the extent of the land he was to get, and the duration and terms of the lease he was to get from the Natives, secured what you believed were his rights ?—Yes. 913. Did you do so entirely on your own judgment, or did a Court sit to investigate what these rights were ? —No Court sat to investigate. I only went by the agreement. It was done on my own judgment, judging by what I knew from the Natives, and the tenor of the agreement I had seen long before. 914. Shortly afterwards this lease was taken up by gentlemen who were in partnership witli you in the purchase of Native lands; who shared commission with you?— They were not in partnership witli me. They were doing certain work, for which I gave them a certain commission. 915. Son. Sir D. McLean.~\ You have said that the Tairua block did not come within the agreement made originally with regard to the gold field ; does the great mass of the land on that peninsula come within the agreement for gold mining entered into by the Government with the Natives up to 1869 ? —Yes, the great bulk of the land does; in fact, all the land north of Kennedy's Bay on the one side, and north of the Omahu Stream on the other side, forms the subject of agreement with the Natives in 1868 and 1869. All the Ngatimaru part was ceded in March 1868. 916. Then the miners can go there without any interruption ?—Yes. 917. Did the agreements contan a right to take timber for mining purposes ?—Every miner was to be allowed to take timber for mining purposes or domestic purposes, except kauri. From the first agreement made at Coromaudel, and all subsequent agreements, kauri was supposed to be reserved by the Natives. As nearly as I can recollect, the words of the agreements are, —" Any person being the holder of a miner's right shall have permission to cut timber for mining and other purposes, except

Bth Oct., 1876,

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kauri, which is reserved. If any person desires to cut a kauri tree, he shall pay the sum of 255. per tree. If any person desires to cut timber for purposes other than mining, he shall pay a timber license." These are perhaps not the exact words of the agreement, but they are to that effect. 918. These agreements are validated by Act of the Assembly ?—Tes, by " The Auckland Gold Fields Proclamations Validation Act, 1869." 919. The Chairman.'] Was Mr. Seccombe's original lease with the Natives a lawful agreement or not ?—No, it was not a lawful agreement, except so far as it would be lawful under the 103 rd section of the Native Lands Act, as being an agreement made previous to the passing of the Act of 1865. If it were possible to take the land into Court at the present time, which it would not be, it could be considered as being an agreement made before ihe Act of 1865. 920. Was Seccombe's lease a lawful lease or not ?—I consider it was not lawful. 921. Was the Tairua block included under a Proclamation by the Crown, assuming again the Crown's right of pre-emption over it—a Proclamation under the Immigration and Public Works Act ? —Tes, it has been included. lam trying to think whether it was included before this lease or not. 922. Then the Crown had the right of pre-emption over that block ?—lt had under that, for two years. 923. Mr. O'Neill.] I suppose the miners have the right to cut firewood on the Tairua block ?— I should say they have a perfect right. Ido not consider that Seccombe acquired the ordinary timber, except where he wanted it for the purpose of getting the kauri timber, or for the mill. That is as I understand it. Mr. Damon further examined on oath. 924. The Chairman.] You wrote a letter stating that you had been induced to attach your signature to some papers by Mr. Brissenden. Will you give an account of what took place ? —On the day before yesterday, Brissenden met me downstairs and asked me to go down to his house. I went there, and he talked to me for some time about his evidence, and read it over. He has a very taking way, and he explained the thing to me, and got me to initial it. In fact, I did not give it sufficient thought at the time, but the moment I had done it I saw that I had done wrong, and I asked Brissenden to give me his evidence again, and he promised that he would do so. I waited here the night before last till 12 o'clock for the purpose of getting it from him, so that I might scratch out all I had initialed. He made several excuses, and at last promised that I should see it yesterday morning. I was here yesterday morning and saw him just as he gave it in. I thought my best course was then to write and ask you to examine me on oath as to my knowledge of the affair. There is a great deal in his evidence which is perfectly true, and to hear it read over without thinking much about it you would think it was all correct. 925. Do I understand that he has not given you an opportunity of striking out your initials ? —He has not. 926. Did he promise that he would let you do so ? —He promised that I should read over the evidence again. 927. And take your initials out? —I did not tell him I would take my initials out, but I most certainly should have done so. 928. What are the specific points on which you wish to give evidence ? Have you had any other interviews with Brissenden about this matter? —I have seen him several times, and have asked him to give me his evidence, so that I could make alterations in it. 929. Would he allow you to make the alterations?—He told me he would. 930. Has he done so? —No. Only yesterday morning, in the next room, he had his evidence -with him, and referred to one point, which is perfectly incorrect as to my hearing Colonel McDonnell call Mr. Brissenden "a Yankee swindler," or "sharper," or something to that effect. I certainly did not hear that, and I initialed it. 931. Mr. Richmond.] Was his statement read over to you?— Yes, by Mr. Moorhouse. 932. Did you agree with it then ?—ln a lot of evidence like that, it was impossible for me to pick out everything that was incorrect at once. If I had taken his evidence home and examined it, I should, •of course, have no excuse. 933. What made you afterwards think it was not correct? —When I came to, think of what I had done I was frightened, because I looked upon it as perjuring myself. 934. Mr. Rolleston.] Mr. Moorhouse asked you to initial it ? —Yes. 935. When and whore?—At Mr. Brissenden's house, after we had had lunch. 936. The Chairman.] Did he inform you what he was taking you to his house for? —He told me he was going to read over his evidence to me, but he did not tell me he wished me to initial it. 937. Mr. Reid.] Is there any declaration above your initials ?—Witness, at the request of the ■Chairman, read the letter he had written to Mr. Brissenden, as follows: — (Vide Appendix). 938. Mr. Richmond.] Did you write that letter yourself? —Yes. 939. AVas it dictated to you ?—Yes, by Mr. Mcorhouse. 940. Mr. Reid.] Did you read the evidence carefully? —Yes, certain portions of it. 941. The Chairman.] Did you read it all yourself ?—No. 942. It was read to you? —Yes. r 943. Mr. Tho?nson.~\ By whom was it read to you ? —Mr. Moorhouse. 944. Mr. Richmond.] When did you think it was not correct? —When I went to bed that night,l began to think quietly over the matter, and it then struck me that I ought not to have done it. 045. Because it was not correct? —Because it was not correct in every particular. 946. The Chairman.] Do you wish to contradict any portion of the evidence you have previously given to this Committee? —No. 947. Your evidence is all true ? —Yes, in every respect. 948. Then do you wish that letter withdrawn ?—Yes. 949. And you wish your initials struck out ? —Yes. ■

Mr, J. Mackay. Bth Oct., 1875.

Mr. J. E. Dallon.

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44

Mr. J. E. Dalton.

950. Mr. Richmond ] Does Mr. Brissenden's evidence, which you say is correct, contradict the evidence which you gave before the Committee ?—I think it does in one or two things. For instance, in regard to my being sent down South by Brissenden, Brissenden says he gave me no authority to go South, and I said that he did. 951. Hon. Sir D. McLean] And on that occasion you stated you would take employment as against the Government, and get the Natives not to sell the land ? —Yes, most certainly I should. I had my own living to get. 952. And you do that to get your own living ?—I should have done it at that time, because it made no difference to me. .1 was employed to do a certain thing, and it was my duty to carry out my orders. Never being employed by the Government, I do not see that I was wrong in doing it. 953. Were you employed at Maketu by Mr. Fitzgerald ? —No ; Mr. O'Meara was employed by him as surveyor, and I was travelling with him. I went down to the Lake district on my own responsibility at first, not being employed by any one. 954. Whom were you employed by afterwards ?—Mr. Brissenden.

Bth Oct., 1875,

APPENDIX. Agreement referred to by Mr. Mackat, on p. 4 of Evidence, as " Seccombe's Agreement." Waiau, 12th March, 1864. This is a record of my having given up the timber of Tairua to Tothill, who really wishes to have the timber of Tairua, and lon my part have agreed to these Europeans. The payment they have given me is this: £500 for the timber, for the firewood, for the booms. The price for the mill site, £12 per annum, to include also site for houses for the Europeans, and the place for them to plant food in, until all the timber is gone. Tikaokao. I certify the above to be a clear translation of the Maori. Henbt E. Williams, Licensed Native Interpreter. "Witness —James Nicholas. Go forth, my letter, to Ti at Waiau. Friend, greetings to you. I have a word to you about all the river.s and creeks of Tairua. The Europeans want to have them for themselves alone ; therefore I named £1,800 as the price. In reply they (both) offered £450. I then named to them £1,000. They did not agree to this for the timber, for the firewood, for the site for the mill, for the booms, for the plantation. I did not approve of payment being made in a lump sum: my idea is to have separate amounts. It must be for you toconsider whether to accept or to decline. N~a Mieiama. I certify the above to be a clear translation of the Maori. Henry E. Williams, Licensed Native Interpreter. This document was written on this 18th day of March, 18G4. It is an agreement by Tikaokao and Miriama, the possessors of the land at Tairua, in the Province of Auckland, New Zealand. They both agree to sell to Charles Tothill, timber merchant, of Coromandel, to his heirs and assigns, for the sum of £500 sterling, all the kauri timber on the lands of Tikaokao and Miriama, at Tairua, and the wood, also, for a saw mill, to be erected by Charles Tothill, his heirs or assigns, at Tairua. It is also agreed that booms may be erected in the rivers and creeks, and that the kauri trees be felled until all the timber is sawn by that mill. And Tikaotao and Miriama do also agree to lease fifty acres of land to Charles Tothill, his heirs and assigns, bounded on the east by the harbour of Tairua, north by the land leased to White, and south-west by unoccupied land. This is for a site for the mill, and leased for the period during wh^ch the timber may be sawn, whether that time be long or short. The yearly rental for this fifty acres to be £12. Tikaokao, For himself, for Miriama, and for other possessors of the soil. Witness —Heney Moneo, P. GrABLICK. Letter from Mr. James Mackat to the Hon. Sir D. McLean, handed in by Sir D. McLean. Sir,— Wellington, 16th September, 1875. I have the honor to request that you will inform the Native Affairs and Tairua Committees that my telegram to the Hon. Dr. Pollen, of 15th June, is incorrect in one particular. It was written at Wellington when I had no access to papers and documents referring to the Tairua question. The paragraph I allude to is as follows : —" I may mention, for your information, that this communication took place months after the application to Sir D.McLean, and subsequent to the Proclamation of the field." This should have been—"l may mention, for your information, that this communication took place months after the application to Sir Donald McLean, and subsequent to the arrangemeEt with Nikorima and Mr. Graham that 30 acres should be granted, but on the same day." I should have communicated this personally to the Committee, but unfortunately am confined to my bed through sickness. I have, &c, The Hon. Sir Donald McLean, K.C.M.G., James Mackat. Native Minister, Wellington.

45

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Statement of Mr. James Mackat, laid before the Tairua Investigation Committee. I, James Mackat, do make oath and say as follows, viz.,—The examination and evidence of Messrs. Grace and O'Halloran appear to have been principally directed to four questions. First, as to whether I, or any persons in my employ, had derived any pecuniary or other advantage from the supply of goods to Natives. Secondly, as to whether I had acted for Mr. Gibbons or others in negotiating for the purchase of timber or lands since my engagement to purchase for the Government. Thirdly, as to my interest in the leases of Block XXVII., Town of Shortlaud, and Hikutaia No. 1. Fourthly, miscellaneous charges or insinuations. As regards the first, I deny absolutely that I ever received any commission or pecuniary advantage whatsoever, directly or indirectly, through any order given by myself or by any person on my behalf for the supply of goods to any Native, and I am not aware that any person in my employment ever received any such advantage, payment, or emolument for or on account of any such order, either directly or indirectly. I have frequently paid orders to storekeepers and others which had been drawn on me by Natives for specified sums of money for articles supplied to them, and I never charged or received any discount, commission, or any pecuniary advantage whatsoever, directly or indirectly, by the same; and I am not aware that any person in my employment ever received any discount, commission, or any pecuniary advantage through any such order or transactions, either directly or indirectly. I sent the following telegram to Messrs. Litehfield, Hetherington, "Williams, Morgan, Adlam, Culpitt, Goldwater, and Driver, storekeepers at the Thames, and attach their replies thereto: — " Questions have been asked in Tairua Investigation Committee as to whether I or any of my clerks have received any commission from storekeepers for goods supplied to Natives. I shall be obliged by your immediate reply to the following questions:—l. Have you supplied goods to Natives on my account ? 2. Did I ever ask, obtain, receive, or in any way get from you any advantage, commission, or pecuniary emolument, directly or indirectly, through such transaction ? 3. Did Mr. O'Halloran, Mr. Crippen, or Mr.. Guilding, or any other person in my employ, receive from you, directly or indirectly, any advantage, commission, or pecuniary emolument, through such transaction at any time. —James Mackat." The only reason which actuated me in giving orders for goods to Natives were either for their own convenience, or to enable me to ultimately obtain land for the Government by that process, because there were many Hauhaus who refused absolutely to receive the money, as they said it was marked ■with the superscription of the Queen, and they would not acknowledge her authority ; but, nevertheless, they had no objection to taking goods either directly themselves or indirectly through their relations, the price of which was eventually to be charged against their lands. I have also caused to be built some eighteen substantial weather-boarded houses for Natives, at prices varying from £100 to £400, and in many cases procured the furniture for the same at the owner's request. I have supplied numerous boats, agricultural implements, and large quantities of wire and other fencing, which have been of great advantage to the Natives, and more likely to yield them permanent advantage than direct money payments, which would have been immediately squandered in drink. I can stand forward and unhesitatingly challenge any person in the Colony of New Zealand to prove that I ever received any advantage directly or indirectly by any of these transactions, excepting the giving a stepping-stone to acquire the lands from the Natives. I have purchased several blocks of land for cash only —among others, the Tairua block, which forms the subject of this investigation —and would prefer that to any other system as being less troublesome and expensive to me, though I doubt if it is as advantageous to the Natives. I have always endeavoured, as far as lay in my power, to see that articles supplied to Natives on my order were of good quality and of reasonable price. In the case of Meremana, cited by Mr. Grace, I do not believe I gave the order at all, but am informed that Mr. Grace drew it himself, and the storekeeper, doubting his authority to do so, asked a higher price for the goods. The case of the Ohinemuri Natives, cited by Mr. Grace, was also one of similar orders drawn by Mr. Grace without authority, and I refused for a considerable time to recognize the accounts, but eventually did so at the earnest solicitation of the Natives. The Hon. the Native Minister has recently issued instructions that no advances in the shape of goods are for the future to be made on Native lands. The circumstances of the case are now altered, and the most obstinate Hauhaus who formerly took goods and would not touch money have lately accepted it. In the first instance, it was the only way to break down the barrier of exclusiveness set up by the King party. As regards Mr. Grace's charges about the purchases of timber in which Messrs. Gibbons and Holdship were concerned at Ohinemuri, or between the Thames and Ohinemuri, I utterly deny the truth of his statement. He has also been guilty of further inaccuracy respecting the attempted purchase by Messrs. Fryer Brothers and Ruddock of the timber on the Kirikiri block. I sent the following telegram to Mr. John Gibbons, and enclose his reply thereto, which is a sufficient refutation of Mr. Grace's assertions. " Mr. John Gibbons, Shortland. —I request answers to the following questions:—l. Did I, after Mr. Holdship had tried to buy bush at Ohinemuri, and paid £200 for it, try to buy the timber for you? 2. Did I interfere in a purchase of bush between Thames and Ohinemuri, on which Mr. Holdship had paid £156, or in any way act on your behalf in the matter? 3. Did you commence to purchase kauri timber on the Kirikiri block before Messrs. Fryers and Ruddock, and did Mr. "W. H. Grace act as agent for the Natives in selling to you the kauri timber on the Owhatako and Ipuwhakatara portions of that block ? 4. Did Mr. Grace afterwards abandon you without notice, and treat for the parties before mentioned? —James Mackat." Referring to the lease of Block 27, town of Shortland, and of what I assume to be Hikutaia No. 1, to the best of my belief, Mr. ~W. H. Grace was not at the Thames Gold Field when it was opened, a fact which, if my memory is correct, he has stated in his evidence before the Native Affairs Committee, in the matter of the Petition of Matiu Toono and others, respecting the Pakirarahi block. He is, therefore, not in a position to say positively whether Block No. 27 was taken out of the gold fields and turned into a township or not. If the various Proclamations of the Thames Gold Fields and its extensions aro referred to, it will be found that the township of Shortland was always included within the external boundaries of the gold field, but that the right to mine within such towns was reserved from the miners. The external boundaries of the towns of Shortland and Grahamstown were

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surveyed as soon as possible, and have not since been altered. Block 27 has always been included within the town of Shortland, and was leased, in accordance with the agreement with the Natives, in the same manner as the rest of Shortland. When the Native Land Court investigated the title to lands in the township of Shortland in May and June, 1869, the case of Block 27 was heard, and the Native Land Court, at the instigation of the counsel for the Crown (Mr. MacCormick), placed the same restriction in the certificate of tiljje for that block, for the protection of European lessees, as had been put in the certificates of the other-blocks forming that township. Mr. Grace's statement that the title to this land was investigated by the Court in May, 1868, is incorrect; also his opinion that I leased Block 27 in January, 1869; whereas, in fact, the gold field was proclaimed and opened as from Ist August, 1867. The survey of the township was then proceeded with, and the external boundaries were marked on the ground, including Block 27, before the final agreement with the Natives for the cession of the gold field was executed on the 9th March, 1868. A new Proclamation was issued by His Honor Mr. Williamson on the 14th April, 1868. In this, townships were excluded from gold mining, and the boundaries of Shortland were then the same as at the present day, and included Block 27 ; and under the agreement the Native owners were to receive the rents of the allotments. Block 27 was cut up into allotments, and many of these were occupied by Europeans under promise of leases when the Native Land Court sat in May and June 1869 (not 1868). A certificate of title was given to three Natives for it. I left the Government service on the 31st July, 1869. On the 14th January, 1870 (not 1869, as stated by Mr. Grace), I did lease Block 27 from the Natives, for £450 per amr.nn, for 21 years; and any other person could have done the same thing. I was then a private person, vnd in no way connected with the Government service; and the transaction was a perfectly legal one, lind duly made after the issue of title under the Native Lands Act. Mr. Grace's statement about the Hikutaia Township is also incorrect. It was no part of any gold field when the Native Land Court investigated the title to the land. The Natives agreed to sell the Hikutaia Nos. 2 and 3 and the Whangamata Nos. 1, 3, and 5 Block to the Government. These were made alienable by the Court. The Natives wished to retain from sale Hikutaia No. 1, and Whan<'amata Nos. 2 and 4, and these were then made inalienable by the Court, except by lease for 21 years ; and none of the latter have ever been the subject of any agreement between the Natives and the Government for either sale or gold mining purposes to the present day. The Natives wished to derive a revenue by leasing a part of the Hikutaia No. 1 Block, and asked Mr. Rowe to lease it from them. He asked me to join him in it, which I and some others did. We found the money for roads, and he did the survey for his share. The whole public had the same chance to lease the block as we had; it was retained by the Natives in open Court, before about 300 persons of botli races. His Honor the Superintendent (Mr. Gillies) and the Hon. Dr. Pollen visited the proposed township, and made no objection to it; but, on the contrary, offered to join us in the expense of constructing a bridge over the Hikutaia River on the main road. The Government had a township on the blocks which had been purchased for them, and which were included within the gold mining district, which Hikutaia No. 1 was not, and is not to this day. I have not reserved any land for any of my clerks anywhere in New Zealand, or attempted to negotiate for any land for any of them. Major Green was persuaded by a man named Alley to deal with the Natives for the purchase of part of the Hungahunga Block, through the agency of a half-caste named William Nicholls. I suggested to him to withdraw from the purchase, which he did. The land was not at that time under negotiation for the Government, nor was it subject to the Proclamation under the Immigration and Public Works Act. I commenced the purchase of a block of land at Waitoa, containing about 4,000 acres, for myself, in January, 1869, and, although I worked at it for years, did not succeed in getting the title to it investigated by the Native Land Court until December, 1^73, on account of the disputes about the boundary line between the Ngatihaua and Ngatipaoa tribes, which intersected the block. I then obtained a legal title to it. This block was not at that time included within any Government Proclamation, or was I instructed to purchase it for the Crown. This is a portion of the country which has been purchased by settlers, and is being brought under cultivation. Among my neighbours are Messrs. J. C. Firth, W. A. Murray, M.H.R., C. J. Taylor, M.L.C., T. Morrin, W. Moon, J. Seccombe, J. McGlashan, Majors Hay and George, and Captain Peacock, the lands of whom were all originally acquired in the same manner as mine. I did not buy my land as a speculation, but for actual settlement; have fenced it in, and am cultivating it as a farm; and consider I have as much right to do so as any other person. I have not yet been furnished with the whole of the evidence given before the Committee, or I would have replied on all the questions raised therein. I also applied to be furnished with a copy of the declaration attached to the writ issued on behalf of Sir George Grey, as plaintiff in re the Tairua reserve, and to have been permitted to examine him on that document and the report of Mr. G. T. Wilkinson. As I understand the case, in the absence of-that document, the declaration is diametrically opposed to the report of Mr. G. T. Wilkinson, the accredited agent of His Honor the Superintendent of Auckland, and who was specially instructed to examine the Natives interested in the reserve at Tairua, and ascertain the real state of the case. Not having been able to procure a copy of the declaration, I give all the information in my power, namely, a copy of Mr. Wilkinson's original report, and can only regret it is not in my power to compare the declaration with it. The part which specially referred to me, and was eliminated from the report, is shown in red ink. In conclusion, I am in self-defence most reluctantly compelled to allude to a statement in Hansard (No. 16, page 388), reported to have been made by the Chairman of the Tairua Investigation Committee in his place in the House of Representatives while this question was before the Committee (that is mibjudice), as follows :—" Of one instance I will tell the House. There was a case in which a claim was made, and the lease of the land was asked for by the prospectors of a gold field as the reward which they thought they were entitled to for their discovery. While their claim was pending, they

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appeared in the office of the General Government Agent and tendered him a share in the claim which was known to be worth £2,000, and he answered that as a public officer he could not take it himself. He was then asked if they might be allowed to give it to one of his subordinates, and he objected because that subordinate was a relation, but with his consent this immense douceur was handed to his clerk." I will not dwell on the indelicacy of this proceeding on the part of the Chairman of a judicial tribunal established by the Parliament of the colony, but will most respectfully and humbly beg to be allowed to deal with the statement so made. The matter was not pending, in one respect, in April last; the claim had been acknowledged, and the Hon. the Native Minister had instructed me to inform the prospectors that their application would be favourably considered when the Government purchased the land, or obtained a cession of it for gold mining purposes. This would be considered by ordinary persons as being a direct promise that the prospectors would get their claim. This took place about January, 1875. Consequently the share offered to me on the sth April, 1875, could not be, as insinuated, a bribe to me or any one to get the Government to favourably consider the case, that having already been conceded by the Native Minister. It could not be to get an increased area, because that had been fixed at 30 acres between myself, Mr. W. A. Graham, and Nikorima Pautotara before any interest was offered to me. I deny that on the sth April the claim was known to be worth £2,000. On the contrary, the persons who had examined it under my instructions had reported on the 2nd April that the reef was worth one ounce to the ton, a yield that would not warrant the valuation of £2,000 for a single share. I am also credibly informed that at that date some of the shareholders only paid Neeves, the prospector, £50 each for a share in the claim. On the Bth April it was reported that 45 lbs. of stone had yielded 50 oz. of gold, and then the shares began to increase in value. By that time the 30 acres had been surveyed by the prospectors, so this did not influence the decision. It v>as no fault of mine that a share was offered to me, and the evidence sworn before the Warden is that I declined it. I may have been wrong in suggesting that it could be given to Crippen, but I did not and do not consider him to be an officer of the Government; neither do I place the same value on shares in gold mining claims that some others do. James Mackat. Taken and sworn before me at "Wellington this 7th day of October, 1875— J. "Woodward, J.P. Mr. "W. Litchfield to Mr. J. Mackat. (Telegram.) Grahamstown, sth October, 1875. In reply to your questions re Tairua Investigation Committee. 1. I have supplied goods to Natives on your account during the last five or six years. 2. You have never asked me for any discount, commission, or any other advantage through such transactions. 3. The accounts have mostly been paid by O'Halloran or Guilding, and always in full. I have never been asked by any one directly or indirectly for any discount or share of profits of such transactions whatever, and I have never given or thought of giving anything off such accounts. "William Litchtiei.d. Mr. S. Hethebington to Mr. J. Mackat. (Telegram.) Grahamstown, sth October, 1875. Answer —1. Tes, I have often supplied Natives with goods on your account. 2. You never asked, received, obtained, or in any way got from me any advantage, commission, or pecuniary emolument, directly or indirectly, through any transactions 1 ever had with Natives. 3. Neither O'Halloran, Crippen, Guilding, nor any other person in your employment, did ever receive at any time any emolument or pecuniary advantage, directly or indirectly, through such transactions. Samuel Hethebington. Mr. H. "Williams to Mr. J. Mackat. (Telegram.) Grahamstown, sth October, 1875. In reply questions —No. 1. Yes ; I have supplied Natives with goods on your account. No. 2. You never asked, received, or obtained any advantage, commission, or pecuniary emoluments from me in any way. No. 3. O'Halloran, Crippen, Guilding, or any other person in your employ have never received, directly or indirectly, any pecuniary emolument or any kind of emolument from me at any time, nor has any such thing been spoken of. Howell "Williams. Mr. E. C. Mobgan to Mr. J. Mackat. (Telegram.) Grahamstown, sth October, 1875. In reply to your telegram received to-day —Firstly, I have supplied Natives on your account, llegarding question No. 2, I emphatically deny your ever having asked, received, or obtained any advantage, commission, directly or indirectly, from me. In answer to question .No. 3, never having been asked by O'Halloran, Crippen, or Guilding, or any other persons in your employ, for commission on goods supplied to your order, I have never offered or allowed any, either directly or indirectly. E. C. Moegan. Mr. J. W. Adlam to Mr. J. Mackat, Wellington. (Telegram.) Grahamstown, 3rd October, 1875. I supplied goods to Natives on your order. You never asked or received commission, nor any pecuniary emoluments directly or indirectly through such transactions ; neither did Messrs. O'Halloran, Crippen, Guilding, or any one presenting the orders in your name. J. W. Adlam.

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Mr. W. Culpitt to Mr. J. Mackat, "Wellington. (Telegram.) Grahamstown, sth October, 1875. I hate supplied goods to Natives on your account, and you nor any of your employes have asked, direct or indirect, for commission. W". CULPITT. Mr. Mteb Goldwateb to Mr. J. Mackat, "Wellington. (Telegram.) Grahamstown, sth October, 1875. I supplied goods to your orders to Natives. Neither you nor any person in your employ ever asked or received any pecuniary emolument from me direct or indirect. . Mtee Goldwatee. Mr. Heney Deivee to Mr. J. Mackat, "Wellington. (Telegram.) Grahamstown, 6th October, 1875. Foe years I have supplied goods to Natives on your agent's orders. I have never, nor any one in my employ ever, been asked for or given to you, or any one else, any bonus, discount, fee, or reward in any way or shape at any time when payment has been made, or before or after, to my certain knowledge, on oath. • Henet Deivee. Mr. John Gibbons to Mr. J. Mackat, Wellington. (Telegram.) Grahamstown, sth October, 1875. No. 1. No, you have never acted in my behalf in the purchase of timber at Ohinemuri, but warned me against having anything to do with it. No. 2. Tou did not. You were absent from the district at the time. I had bargained for and advanced on that timber in 1869. No. 3. Yes, three years before Fryers and Ruddock. I refer you to your report re Proclamation prohibiting dealing in Native lands, &c. Mr. W. H. Grace acted as agent in the sale to me of the Puewhakatara and Owhataroa portions. No. 4. Yes ; the first intimation I had of Grace abandoning my interest was on hearing of his purchasing the timber for Fryers and Ruddock, and witnessing agreement and part payment. On remonstrating with him about it, he said he had done it because I employed "Wilkinson. I had done so in another case, where the Natives objected to having Mr. Grace employed. John Gibbons. Mr. C. F. Mitchell to Mr. J. Mackat, "Wellington. (Telegram.) Grahamstown, 7th October, 1375. I have received your telegram of the sth. I have supplied the Natives with considerable quantities of goods on your account. Neither yourself, O'Halloran, Crippen, Guilding, or any other person in your employ, or connected with you, have directly or indirectly received commission or any pecuniary advantage from me through such transactions. C. F. Mitchell. Copy of Mr. Wilkinson's Report. Dueing the month of April, O'Halloran and Guilding went to Mercury Bay to see some of the Natives there in connection with the Government land purchases. It was then proposed that Guilding should have the management of matters in connection with the Tairua reserve of 1,000 acres on behalf of the Native owners, and it was to be surveyed forthwith. The said reserve was granted to the Natives at their request when the purchase of block by the Government took place in 1872, Mackay and Preece being the agents on behalf of the Government. The Natives wished to have the 1,000---acre reserve divided, and take a portion at Pukiore (the present reserve), and a small portion of 48 acres somewhere at the entrance of the Tairua River; but this, I believe, was overruled, as it was not thought that the Government would issue two Crown grants, and the whole 1,000 acres was taken at Pukiore, the Government having agreed at the time of the sale of the block to pay for the survey of the reserve. During the visit of O'Halloran and Guilding, it was decided that the reserves should he at once surveyed, and, on Guilding's return to the Thames, Mr. W. Tole was sent by Guilding to Peneamine, one of the Native owners, to meet him and the surveyor at Pakirarahi, the site of the Prospectors' Claim, Tairua, and there to go over the boundaries of the reserve and have it surveyed; this was done, and it was at that meeting, or one directly afterwards, that Guilding asked him to lease the block to himself and Mr. O'Halloran. The terms upon which Guilding wanted the lease for himself and companion were for twenty-one years, at £50 per quarter. This, however, was not wholly agreed to, especially as regards the number of years, Peueamine and Miriama wishing the lease to be a yearly one, or at most three or four years. Although the matter does not appear by any means to be settled, Guilding took upon himself to advance to Peneamine and Miriama £15 in cash, and also to take up an account of some £4 that they owed at Carina's store, Mercury Bay. When the survey should be finished by (Pole, a letter was to be written to the Natives, when they would possibly go over to the Thames or Auckland, and, if the arrangements made were satisfactory to themselves, would, perhaps, sign the deeds of lease. Guilding told them not to go and demand rent from any of the Europeans now living on the block, as that would be payable to himself and co-lessee, the yearly rental from himself and O'Halloran being what the Natives were to receive. The river is navigable for vessels up to a portion of the reserve, the p.s. " Effort " having been up there and discharged passengers and cargo ;* but steamers would hardly get beyond the boundary of the reserve. After making careful inquiry, I could not find out that Mr. Mackay had been in any way connected with the matter, either by action taken by himself or'by communication in any shape or form with the Natives. He, on behalf of the Government, granted the reserve to the Natives at their

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request, and had not that been done the balance of the block would not then have been the property of the Government, as the Natives were not satisfied with the price per acre.* Neither does it appealthat Mr. O'Halloran had taken any active part in the transaction. Although it is certain that he was to be a party with Guilding in the lease, he does not appear to have been present when the matter of the lease was talked about, or when the money was paid. The whole of the business up to the present time seems to have been done by Mr. Guilding. There is a small portion of the reserve, said to be some three acres or so, which is intended by the Natives to be leased to Mr. Jackson, of Tairua, he having had it for some considerable time, and been in the habit of paying yearly rent to the Natives. It would not appear from the above statement that there has been any lease or agreement to lease up to the present time of the Tairua reserve ; neither do the Natives consider that they are in any way bound to grant a lease to Messrs. Guilding and O'Halloran, nothing definite having been agreed to between them. And from conversations I held with Miriama, Peneamine, and Matene Pehi, they gave me to understand that they would be willing to lease the block to the Government, provided suitable terms could be arranged ; but they would wish to be held indemnified as against any action that might be taken by Messrs. Guilding and O'Halloran, should those gentlemen be bold enough to institute proceedings against them. One of the Natives (Peneamine) has written a short note to the Superintendent, in which he partly refers to the matter. Statement of Colonel McDonnell, laid before the Tairua Investigation Committee. Wellington, 2nd September, 1875. Afteb the chief Te Whata's death, the Natives offered me the Otaua land. 1 reported this to the Government in a letter dated 7th March, 1873. When I next saw the Natives, they declined to sell, having disagreed among themselves. One day Mr. Stannus Jones asked me if I could not get him a small block of land as a sub-station to the run he has North. I mentioned Otaua a» likely to suit him, adding that I could not negotiate it, being an officer of the Government; but that if he got the consent of Mr. McLean, I would do what I could for him. I advised him before he took any steps in the matter to look at the block. Subsequentry Mr. Jones followed me North, and we rode over the block. I again asked the Natives to sell, and a section of the tribe agreed to take 3s. an acre. I told the Natives the land was for the Government, but that I might possibly come to live on it myself. I said this, as Mr. Jones had promised, if all went straight, to let me have an interest in it. I then paid a first deposit of £20 out of my own pocket. I contemplated that if the Government objected to Mr. Jones getting the land, I could still continue the negotiations for the Government, refunding myself when 1 concluded the purchase of the block. I told Mr. Brissenden what had passed, and road over the land ■with him. He asked me what arrangement I had come to with Jones. I told him, when he advised me to have nothing to do with Mr. Jones, as he would " let me in," but "to throw him over;" that he would advance me the money to buy it for myself, charging me no interest; that I could refund him when it suited me; and that he would get the upper portion of the valley for himself. I declined Mr. Brissenden's offers. He then repeated a former statement, that he had permission to buy land from the Government for himself and others, and offered to give me his advice and assistance. I thanked him, but said I would continue the negotiations, and if in the end Jones did not get the land, the Government should, and no harm would be done. I advised Mr. Jones to get the sanction of the Government. With this view he went to Wellington. Before he went, the Natives asked me for a further advance, and Mr. Jones gave me £30. I then drew out the receiptf the Committee now have, adding the £20, the whole in my name. I told Mr. Jones that if he failed in getting the land, I could repay him when I bought for Government. Mr. Jones went to Wellington, and I returned North. I explained to Mr. Brissenden why Mr. Jones had gone to Wellington. Mr. Brissenden said, "He might Lave saved himself the trouble ; did I not tell you I have power to excise blocks of land just as I am going to buy the Tautoro country for myself. I intend to give you an interest in that with me." I replied that I did not want the Tautoro country. I made another trip North after this, but Mr. Brissenden remained in Auckland about the surveyors. He followed me next steamer, and brought me £20 in gold from Mr. Jones as a further advance on Otaua. This money Mr. Davis, a surveyor, paid to the Natives before he commenced the survey. After this, Mr. Brissenclen went to Wellington. On his return, he (Mr. Brissenden) said that he had seen Sir D. McLean about Otaua, that he had spoken especially to Sir D. McLean, and that it was finally settled Mr. Jones could have the block. I advised Mr. Jones not to pay any more mouey till the l.:nd had passed the Native Land Court. I did not quite believe Mr. Brissenden's statements—he repeated so many conversations he said he had had with Sir Donald. When Sir Donald was at Haruru (Bay of Islands), the Natives made some complaints about land, and Otaua was mentioned. A list of blocks under negotiation was given to Sir Donald, and I noticed Otaua ■was named in it (this list had been made out, I think, by Mr. Brissenden). I said to Sir Donald, * Otaua ought not to be there. That is the block that has been arranged for Mr. Jones." Sir Donald said, " Did you negotiate it ?" I said, " Yes." This was all that passed in reference to this block. On my return to Auckland, I related to Mr. Jones what had happened. On the 3rd of March, I left Auckland with Sir Donald. In June last I returned to Auckland, when I was informed by Mr. Jones that the only portion of the block (Otaua) that had gone through the Court had been bought by Mr. Brissenden for the Government. I had expected something like this. Mr. Jones asked me how the money was to be recovered; I said I did not know, but would see Major Green. I saw Major Green, who told me that Mr. Brissenden was going to refund the money if receipts were produced. I gave the receipt to Mr. Preece for the £50, and told him that Mr. Davis would prove the payment of the other £20. I handed the receipt to Mr. Preece, as Major Green had told me that Mr. Brissenden tad promised Mr. Preece and himself that he could and would give me my portion at once. I wanted the money, as my wife was going to England. Mr. Preece gave it to Mr. Brissenden, who appears to have given it to the Committee. Neither Mr. Jones nor I have an acre of the land, but the Government have. Mr. Brissenden has not refunded either of us this money up to date. After the Natives !Note. —The words between asterisks ure those referred to in Mr. Mackay's statement as being written in red ink. t Note. —The receipt for the £50 is in mv own handwriting. 7—l. 1.

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had taken the money from me for the land, and after I had arranged the price, viz. 3s. an acre, Mr. Nelson, who I believe is employed by Mr. Brissenden, gave a Native £30 for the same block, price to be Is. per acre. I wrote to Mr. Brissenden about this, and Mr. Brissenden said Mr. Nelson had made a great mistake ; but that Jones could refund him the money when the final payment was made. I make the above statement firmly beliving the same to be true and correct in every particular. Tiios. McDonnell. Moneys paid to Natives on account of Otaua, including expenses, are as under: — Cash to Natives .-.. ... ... ... ... ... ... £70 Expenses ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 8 £78 Statement of Colonel McDonnell, laid before the Tairua Investigation Committee, with respect to the piece of land called Mangakirikiri and Te Waipouitaka, adjoining, I believe, the purchases made by me for the Government (Tutamoe and Kairara). "Wellington, 2nd September, 1875. Paboue te Awha has promised me this as compensation for services rendered by my late father, Captain McDonnell, R.N., about the year 1829. It had nothing to do with Government purchases. A piece of kauri timber land had, at the time I speak of, been made over by Native deed to Captain McDonnell. This deed did not, I think, come before the Land Claims Commissioners ; it was given t(> me by my father, but was afterwards lost. I mentioned this to Parore :he acknowledged the past, but said, " The timber has long since been cut down ;" you can have no claim now. " I know that," I replied, and here the subjeot dropped. Some months afterwards, Parore told me he would make his words good t» me on account of Kapetana, my father, and gave me of his own free will the above-mentioned block, which he told me to get surveyed. I intended to give him something for his honorable conduct when it had past the Native Land Court. The land has been surveyed, and is about 900 acres. I received a letter from Parore about this land when last in Auckland, and, a few days before I left, Major Green told me that Brissenden would buy it from me, as it now stands, for the Government, if I would name a price. I have not paid one penny for the land, and have not sold it. The above is all I have to state in reference to Mangakirikiri and Te Waipouitaka; and, if it is required, I can bring forward evidence, Native and European, to prove what I have stated here to be facts. Thos. McDonnell. Letter from Colonel McDonnell to Sir D. McLean. Sic— Auckland, 25th January, 1875. Referring to what I was saying to-day about Tutamoe and Kairara blocks, which include Totarapoka and another piece of land, in reference to Mr. Brissenden, I have simply the honor to state that, if what he has told me on more than one occasion is correct, I am not surprised at his anxiety to conclude the negotiations I have commenced. Mr. Brissenden has informed me that he wished to reserve some of the kauri timber I had reported on for the interests of Thomas Russell, Esq., as that gentleman had a contract from the Admiralty for spars, and that he had permission from yourself and the Hon. Mr. Vogel to use his own discretion in negotiations of this kind, at the time he received his appointment. With the above I have nothing to do or say, but I venture my opinion, with all due deference, that if Mr. Brisseuden is permitted to conclude the negotiations of these particular blocks that I have been engaged in, it will tend very much to confuse what I have taken much trouble aud pains to bring to a satisfactory issue. The Natives, especially old Parore, wish me, and not others, to conclude these purchases ; besides, there are many small but necessary details it has cost no little expense to become acquainted with. In making the above remarks, I beg to assure you, Sir Donald, I only make them with a view to avoid future trouble and complication that might take place. Owing to others not knowing the tender portions of the ground, they would rush on. I have, &c, Thos. McDonnell, Land Purchase Officer. Statement of Me. E. T. Beissenden, laid before the Tairua Investigation Committee. I, E. T. Beissenden, do make oath as follows: — Sib,— Wellington, October sth, 1875. In accordance with the letter which I have received, announcing the decision of the Tairua Committee that I may make a statement, I have now the honor to forward one, and at the same time to request that, as the Committee has declined to allow me to cross-examine witnesses who have given evidence apparently damaging to me, I may be allowed to give in this statement on oath. I have, &c, The Chairman of Tairua Committee, Wellington. E. T. Bbissenden. Sib,— Wellington, sth October, 1875. Having at your request carefully read your statement to the Chairman of the Tairua Committee, I feel bound to state that, so far as my knowledge relating to the circumstances referred to enables me to judge, in substance and spirit your statement is candid and truthful. I have, &c, E. T. Brissenden, Esq. J. E. Dalton.

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As far as I can understand there are certain charges brought against me which I will enumerate:— (1.) I am charged that I got or excised from a Government purchase some kauri land for Mr. Dargaville. (2.) That I assisted Mr. Holdship in getting land at Whangaroa. (3.) That I sent Mr. Hardiman to Whangaroa to tell the Natives there not to sell to Lieut.Colonel McDonnell, but to me. (4.) That I got Mr. Yon Stunner some land from a block called Monganui o wai. (5.) That I allowed some one to treat for a piece of land at Pakanui. (G.) That I did something or another against the Government in connection with a block at Whangape held by a Melbourne Company. (7.) That there was something wrong in my transactions with "We Tana Papahia in connection with Otnahuta block. (8.) That I purchased, or tried to purchase, land for Sir Julius Vogel, Dr. Pollen, and Mr. Eussell while employed by Government. (9.) That I took commission from surveyors employed by me for Government. (10.) That I was a party to a cheque being cashed for a lesser sum than it was drawn for. (11.) That I paid a Mr. Davis, a surveyor, £20, and took a voueher«from him for £50. (12.) That I swindled Lieut.-Colonel McDonnell and Mr. Stannus Jones (vide Colonel McDonnell's evidence). (13.) That I sent Mr. Dalton to Patetere to obstruct the Government land purchase. (11.) A letter from Mr. Dalton (marked X), of December 19, 1874, with remarks attached, relating to answer to question (G96), which I omitted to include in statement (page 34). (1.) That I purchased, or excised from a Government purchase, some kauri land for Mr. Dargaville. In June, 1874, I made satisfactory arrangements for the purchase of the Kairara and Totarapoko block (afterwards called Tutamoe by Colonel McDonnell), for Is. per acre, then estimated to contain 15,000 acres. Subsequently, in September, 1874, while I was in Wellington, Lieut.-Colonel McDonnell was then acting for me, and had my instructions to see the Native owners of Pekapekarau and Wnirekawakawa blocks about reducing the price, which was arranged for by the Colonel in 1873 at 2s. 6d. to Is. 3d. per acre, otherwise we would not survey more land than would cover the advances already made. The Natives agreed to this. While there, he entered into arrangements with the Natives for the purchase of Kairara and Totarapoke, grouping them under the name of Tutamoe, for Is. 3d. per acre, being 3d. more per acre than the original agreement. The block has been surveyed and contains 31,000 acres, and its purchase will cost the Government £387 10s. more than it would had Lieut.Colonel McDonnell not interfered with the first arrangement. Kairara or Tutamoe block would have been much larger had not a large portion of it been taken into the survey of Opoutike by Colonel McDonnell's instructions. Ido not know why, unless it was to enable him to account for a certain sum of £200, which he promised in writing to Wharepopo as a bonus. When the surveyors went to work on this Kairara or Tutamoe block, it was found that the lines, as given by the Natives, encroached on land which had been previously purchased by Mr. Dargaville. Considering, then, that the Government would not be a party to such injustice as to attempt to take away from private individuals lands or rights for which they had paid, I arranged with Mr. Dargaville, at Parori's request, that if, when this block passed through the Native Land Court, his statement was found to be correct, he would secure his land, otherwise I should take it for the Government. Mr. Dargaville was to pay all the expenses of survey. Had I not agreed to this, Parore would have stopped the survey. It was in consequence of this that I wrote to Mr. Dalton, 12th November, 1874. I think tho copy of a telegram (marked B) will pretty well convince the Committee as to what my share was in this transaction. But as I have had insinuations cast at me about this block, I would much have liked to have asked Lieut.-Colonel McDonnell whether it was not his wish that Mr. Dalton should survey Tutamoe. My knowledge of the matter is that Lieut.-Colonel McDonnell was trying very hard to get a large piece, a part of Tutamoe, and called Mangakirikiri, claiming it on some old claim of his father's. Parore was the Native most interested in it, and I have grounds for believing that Wliarepapa, the individual to whom Lieut.-Colonel McDonnell promised a bonus of £200 for his assistance in obtaining the Kairara or Tutamoe block for the Government, was the man who did persuade Parore to have the above land surveyed for the Colonel. Wharepapa was to become the sole grantee in the Court, and Mr. Dalton was to survey it, because Lieut.-Colonel McDonnell could trust him to make it as large as possible. Mr. Dalton's letter to me of 17th November, 1874, copy of which (marked C) is attached, will show that lie knew the Colonel's attempt to get land for himself. Lieut.-Colonel McDonnell ■wished me to take this block over for the Government at the same price as the Kairara block so soon as it passed the Court, so that the only difference would be that Colonel McDonnell would have the money instead of the Maoris. I can only add that Colonel McDonnell has not got the block, though Parore writes to him for payment. (2.) That I assisted Mr. Holdship in getting land at Whangaroa. This of course refers to the Kauri Putete, and is an absurdity, as I was prohibited from purchasing land in that district for the Government. This is a block of about 2,500 acres. In May 1875, Mr. Holdship came to me at the Native Land Court, Mongonui, and told me he had paid for the survey of the Kauri Putete and Otongaroa, and that he wished to lease or purchase them. He said he had purchased timber from the blocks from time to time. He then saw Judge Monro and Mr. Preece: they said they were through the Court, and there could be no objection on the part of the Government to any one purchasing. I learned then that about six different people were in the market for them. The price offered was 7s. Gd. per acre I think, but refused. I know that £1,000 was offered for Kauri Putete, which made it quite impossible for me to touch it for the Government. The offer was made at Herd's Point. Mr. G. Clarke was then acting as agent for Mr. Holdship. I attach a telegram {marked 82.)

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(3.) That I sent Mr. Hardiman to Whangaroa to tell the Natives not to sell the land to Colonel McDonnell, but to me. My answer to this is very simple. I had instructions not to purchase land then, and therefore it is impossible that I should have done such a thing. I never did. The reason for my instructions not to purchase laud then was that Lieut-Colonel McDonnell had, while acting for me when I was in AVellington, I think in October 1874, advanced £50 on Otongaroa and four other blocks, which caused a great deal of trouble, inasmuch as the people receiving the money on Otongaroa were not the owners, and the other block belonged to the Government by old purchases. I then received orders not to touch that country ; indeed there is very little land of any kind to purchase in that district. I may add that I had to bear the blame of Lieut.-Colonel McDonnell's foolish action in this matter. (4.) That I promised to get Mr. Yon Stunner some land out of the Monganui o wai block. I believe that the only evidence against me in this case is the hearsay evidence from Mr. Dalton, who surveyed the block. My best answer to this is that I purchased the entire block for the Government, 7,500 acres, and that not one acre is owned by Mr. Yon Stunner of this or any other block. (5.) That I allowed some one to treat for a piece of land at Pakanui. With reference to Pakanui No. 1 and No. 3, of good land, I beg to state that I consider the Government is much indebted tv Mr. C. E. Nelson for having acquired them. It is entirely due to him that this negotiation has been carried out; and, as I believe his name has been brought up in this matter, I must request the Committee to allow me to state that I consider his services in the acquirement of land for the Government have been of the greatest value, and that he has acted with me in a most loyal manner for the Government. To Mr. Nelson I owe the success of my operations in the purchase of land for the Government in the North. I wished to purchase this land (Pakanui) for the Government, as it was very valuable, but I knew private individuals were after it, and that the price they offered was much higher than I could give. Mr. Nelson had sundry talks with the Natives, and told them he would himself give them 10s. an acre for it. The other negotiations were by this offer broken off, and in the end I was enabled to survey the block. It was divided into three parts—two of which I purchased at Is. 3d per acre; the third, a small piece of two or three hundred acres, has been reserved as a racecourse by the Natives. Pakanui, No. 1 ... ... ... ... ... ... 8,955 acres Ditto, No. 3 ... ... ... ... ... ... 3,189 „ Total ... ... ... 12,144 acres Purchased at Is. 3d. per acre. No. 2is the racecourse reserve as above. (6.) That I did something or another against Government in connection with a block at Whangape held by a Melbourne Company. A Melbourne Company holds land« there which it got before I acted as a Land Purchase Agent. I should have liked to have bought the land for the Government, but I did not interfere with them, as they had rights which I was bound to recognize, though Ido not consider their title a good one. I did have private offers to buy a portion of their interest, and even had I done so, I do not see what harm there could possibly be imputed to me in purchasing a share in a company. (7.) That there was something wrong in my transactions with We Tana Papahia in connection with the Omohuta block. I beg to state here that my evidence (question 330) reads, " So far I have not gone into that negotiation." This alludes to Mr. Webster's negotiations, and should be, "I have not taken any notice of that negotiation." I have taken no notice of it, and have purchased the b10ck—7,730 acres— at Is. 6d. per acre, for the Government. In this block, We Tana Papahia is a large recognized owner, and I fail to see where an imputation can lie from my having paid him £100 in Auckland on account of the block. A voucher for this is now in the Treasury. (8.) That I purchased, or tried to purchase, land for Sir Julius Vogel, Dr. Pollen, Mr. Russell, and others, while in the Government employ. Mv evidence already given denies this, and I once more repeat that such a statement is totally false. (9.) That I took commission from surveyors employed by me for Government. I could answer this by simply referring the Committee to Captain Heale, the Inspector of Surveys, Auckland. Captain Heale inquired into this matter some months ago. But I should also like to say something further. Mr. Nelson is a surveyor. He had arranged with Mr. Percy Smith to survey several large blocks between Hokianga Heads and Kaihu (West Coast). He could not execute them, owing to my requiring his services, so he arranged with other surveyors to take the surveys over. By the common practice, Mr. Nelson had a right to receive a percentage from them. I am perfectly certain that he never exacted one penny. In the individual case of Mr. Dalton, I remember distinctly telling him that he could not afford to take over a survey at the percentage he mentioned to me. Even had he done so, the commission would not have gone to me, but to Mr. Nelson, who had a perfect right to sub-let, in accordance with the recognized practice. (10.) That I was a party to a cheque being cashed for a lesser sum than it was drawn for. On the 29th June, 1874, I was at Ohaeawae, with Colonel McDonnell and Mr. Dalton. I had paid deposits on several blocks of laud the day before. Colonel McDonnell then entered into anegotiation for a block called Awarua, and agreed to pay a Native named Haurangi a deposit on it. I was annoyed at this, as none of us had seen the land ; but I drew a cheque for the sum wanted —£15. I must inform the Committee that previous to this a general conversation had taken place, in which it was mentioned by Colonel McDonnell that a good deal of money might be made by discounting cheques. He stated that C. 0. Davis had made lots of money that way. 1 remember agreeing with Colonel McDonnell that a u;ood deal of money might be made that way. Mr. Dalton came into my room that morning, and asked me for some money. I gave him all I had —£14. As far as I can remember, he did tell me something about cashing that cheque, and I might have said to him he might make a few shillings if he liked ; but the words, I believe, I used were, " 1 did not care a damn what he

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did." I don't think any imputation of the kind should be thrown on me, as I had taken care when I came to the big final settlement I had a scrutineer with me, Mr. Preece, who I took great care should look into my past transactions, and witness in the open Court, before Judge Monro, the close of every one of my purchases. I wish to point out the discrepancy in this case between the statement made by Colonel McDonnell and Mr. Dalton, the latter of which corroborated mine. Colonel McDonnell states the amount to have been £20, and that he had £12, and got £8 from Goff to cash it; the real fact is that by my bank book I did not draw a £20 cheque that month. I think that here Colonel McDonnell has gone into minutiic to an extent which cannot but be damaging to his evidence. Another thing, he states that it was my first transaction, and that I told him I had 500 sovereigns, instead of which I had paid deposits on the Mongakahia blocks, £210. Then I purchased Tautaro, Pututumuturu, Mangawhero, Makaki, and Waitaroto blocks. The following day I paid the above cheque. I did have £500 in £1 notes when I started, 16th June. By this time I had paid nearly all away, except that deposited at Herd's Point. (11.) That I paid a Mr. Davis, a surveyor, £20, and took a voucher from him for £50. I do not know whether this is a charge made before the Committee, but I have heard it reported in town that Colonel McDonnell says so, and that he says ho has made a written statement to the Committee about it. On the chance of this, I append a copy of a letter from Mr. Davis (marked D). By it will be seen that the exact sum, £30, which I believe 1 am charged with having kept back from Mr. Davis, is exactly the sum he therein states he owed me, and which he returned to me about the 20th of July last. I can say nothing more on this subject, except that if the accusation has been made it is simply a gross falsehood. The transaction mentioned in Mr. Davis's letter is the only one I have ever had with him. I lent him the money nearly a year ago. (12.) That I swindled Lieut.-Colonel McDonnell and Mr. Stannus Jones. (Vide Lieut.-Colonel McDonnell's evidence.) Here I simply refer the Committee to my transactions, and to papers which are laid on the Table of the House. I have obtained for the Government a block called Arawahatatotara No. 1, which was a part of Mr. Jones and Lieut.-Colonel McDonnell's survey. They encroached on a Government purchase, so when it was brought into Court I secured it for the Government, leaving their portion, for them to do what they liked with. It thus appears that Colonel McDonnell thinks that because I did my duty to the Government, and stopped his attempts to acquire land which it should obtain, I swindled him. I can only say that on the same terms I was and am perfectly prepared to " swindle" any one. As Lieut.-Colonel McDonnell has set the example of using such language, and has been permitted to do so, I trust I may be allowed to answer that his statement in this case is utterly false and malicious. (13.) That I sent Mr. Dalton to Patetere to obstruct Messrs. Mitchell and Davis, so as to be in a position to get the district for myself as Land Purchase Agent. In the first place, I give to this statement an unqualified denial; and I should like Messrs. Mitchell and Davis to be asked if they have met with any obstruction from me or Mr. Dalton since I have been in Government employ. In the second place, I cannot but think that some confusion exists in the evidence as to the different occasions on which Mr. Dalton went to the district for me. He went twice. The first time was early in 1873, when I was not in Government employ. When I sent him the first time, I was one of a company purchasing the Ngatiraukawa land. There was a portion of my boundary unsurveyed, and I sent him down to complete it, if possible. Sullivan's murder had just taken place, and I wanted some one who could talk Maori, and could work for us. Mr. Dalton was to keep the Maoris quiet and watch our interests, and to prevent other Europeans from interfering with us, whether acting for the Government or private people. He was then acting under my orders as a private person. He was also protecting his own interest in the case of the Patetere survey, which he had undertaken to survey for the Native owners. This block bounded the company's land. His second visit came about differently. In July 1874, I was at Ahipara with Mr. Dalton and Lieut.Colonel McDonnell. I then made up my mind that I must go down to Wellington to see about Land Courts, and make arrangements for the survey of the land I was purchasing. At that time Petera te Pukuatua (of the Arawa) was in Wellington, and Mr. Dalton was anxious to sco him, and expressed a great wish to accompany me, as he had hopes, if he were in Wellington with the principal owner of his Patetere block, he would induce the Government to take over the block and pay him for the survey. Mr. Dalton's claim, I believe, was £750. I did not care about leaving Mr. Dalton behind in the North, nor in Auckland, as there were many people looking out for land, who would at once combine to purchase land from the Natives if they could find a capable negotiatee to oppose the Government. Ido not think there are many left now. When I consented to let Mr. Dalton go, Lieut.-Colonel McDonnell suggested that he should go overland by Taupo and Murimotu, a block on the West Coast that Lieut.-Colonel McDonnell had an interest in, and wished Mr. Dalton to pick up all the information he could about the action the Government was taking in reference to that block. I remember he swore the Government should never secure the land unless they first gave him his lease. Lieut.-Colonel McDonnell gave Mr. Dalton letters to Pakeha the Arawa, and other chiefs through the country. Mr. Dalton eventually went, and I gave him instructions. I must state here that, before I was instructed to purchase land for the Government, I had undertaken to go about the country and see what land could be bought, and what was the Native feeling about the working of the new Land Act. It happened that I had transactions with what were called King Natives, and I was in a position to know a good deal, and to be able to give the Government information. Ever since I have been a Land Ptirchase Agent, I have been in the habit of reporting to the Hon. the Native Minister whenever I heard fresh Native news of importance, or could ascertain their feelings with regard to the new Act. It was under these circumstances that I instructed Mr. Daiton to pick up all the information he could when on this journey, and to let me have it. I deny that on this occasion I instructed Mr. Dalton to obstruct Government purchases, or to offer any higher price, or to make any offer whatever against Messrs. Mitchell and Davis. On the first visit I may have done so, but certainly not on the second. The whole thing came to nothing. As Mr. Dalton was stopped by

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snow at Taupo, he went straight to Napier. Not trusting country telegraphists, we had a private code. As he obtained no information it was not required. I think it was used once about his own survey claim on Patetere. Other telegrams passed, my answers to which are appended (marked E). I wanted on this second visit of his to learn the news of the Natives in the Upper Waikato District with regard to their inclination or otherwise to sell or lease the: r land to the Government. As I then expected, it would fall to my lot to conclude the purchase of the blocks I had passed over to the Government from the Company. Had he learned anything I would have reported it, especially as after what Lieut.-Colonel McDonnell had said against Mr. Booth, the agent purchasing Murimotu, it was very likely that some valuable information might be obtained. I got no news, and therefore I had nothing to report. Mr. Dalton wired me for money from Napier, when I sent him £20, and instructions to return by way of the Thames, and inquire into the condiditon of the Upper Thames and Upper Piako Natives. When he arrived at Taupo, I advised him to get a promissory note signed by the Native owners of Patetere for the amount of his survey, so he might have something to show for his work when the Government took it over, as they were going to do. The extent of Lieut.-Colonel McDonnell's transactions in the North before I went there, during the couple of years or more in which he was employed in that district, and the value of his exertions, can be judged by the foUowing facts, which can be substantiated by the records of the Native Office relating to land purchases in the North. He had entered into negotiations for seven blocks —Waoku, Takahue, Uhiroa, Pekapekarau, Waerekawakawa, Opoutike, and Opuhite. AVhen I went North the only one of them surveyed was Waoku, aud I had great difficulty in passing it through the Court, owing to one-third of it encroaching on the land of another tribe. Takahue and Uhiroa were being surveyed by a Mr. Campbell, who had them in hand for nine months, doing very little. The three small blocks had been commenced a year before and left unfinished. Opoutike was not touched, and the survey did not begin until I sent a surveyor there in September 1874, who finished the three smaller blocks. L cut.-Colonel McDonnell had not one single transaction completed when I went North, aud the Native owners of blocks under negotiations were in a very unsatisfied state with his arrangements. Having thus disposed of the charges which have been brought against me, I will now proceed to show to the Committee the unworthiness of the evidence given by Lieut.-Colonel McDonnell, and, in so doing, I shall be compelled in self-defence to make'statements which cannot but be considered as charges against him. I must apologize for thus troubling the Committee, but, as of course it seems to be only one man's word against another, I must put forward facts to discredit his testimony. 1 must premise by one short remark. I find that Lieut.-Colonel McDonnell has stated that at Haruru, in June 1874, in the presence of Mr. Dalton (in Goff's Hotel), he told me I was a scoundrel and a Yankee sharper. Now, Lieut.-Colonel McDonnell never has dared to say anything of the kind to me, and I have a very strong impression that he never will. He mentions several occasions on which he says I made him offers, and he states he made notes about his refusal, and his holy horror at my doing such a thing. I take this opportunity of denying again these assertions, and I should like to ask how it came to pass that, knowing of my " rascality," as he calls it, he should continue on such intimate terms with me as to write me the business letters he did, some of which I annex. Lieut.-Colonel McDonnell, having given his account of the trip we took to the North together, I must request to be allowed to give my version of it. We, i.e. Lieut.-Colonel McDonnell, Mr. Dalton, and myself, left Auckland 16th June, lt_74, in the steamer for Russell. The Colonel and myself were very friendly. It was a rough passage, and I remember Lieut.-Colonel McDonnell had a horse on board. The horse was found to be injured ;he was put on shore. The Colonel told us it had cost him £9. I have since heard he sent in a claim to Government for £15, and I understand he got it. We parted at the Bay of Islands, with an understanding to meet at Goff's Haruru Hotel in ten days. The Colonel stated that he had engagements atTaheke ; I had business at Whangarei; Mr. Dalton accompanied me ;we returned three days earlier than we expected. On our way from Russell to Haruru we met the Colonel in a boat;'l got into the Colonel's boat; we met on the most friendly terms ; I returned with him to Russell. Later in the day we returned in his boat to Haruru, where we met Mr. Dalton, and talked over land-purchase matters generally. It was then settled we should travel together to avoid confusion in the purchase of lauds. Mr. Stannus Jones arrived about 9 p.m. ; he left an hour later with Lieut.-Colonel McDonnell, who said they had business at the Taheke, and would meet us at Ohaeawae in three days. The following morning Mr. Dalton and myself went to Herd's Point. I did some business there, and left £300 with Mr. Yon Stunner for Mr. Nelson, Land Purchase Account. We then returned to Ohaeawae, a day later than we expected. Lieut.-Colonel McDonnell had been there and gone to Mongakahia ;he left word for me to follow, which I did, and arrived with Mr. Dalton at Mongakahia on the night of the 27th June. After that Lieut.-Colonel McDonnell and I never separated till we arrived in Auckland on the following month. I then paid advances on account of purchase of Pekapekarau, AVaerekahakaha, and Opuhiti One, and agreed with the Native owners of Kairara and Totarapako, which is the block known as Tutamoe, but the whole has passed the Court under the proper name, " Kairara," the first signature in the voucher marked G; Romaura AVharepapa is the sole grantee. Lieut.-Colonel McDonnell, Mr. Dalton, and myself examined several blocks of country that day. We arrived at Ohaeawae that evening, and paid deposits on the blocks we had seen ; and here occurred the affair of the cheque, on the following day, 29th, as per voucher marked A, explained by me above. We then went to Waitangi, AVhangaroa, Monganui, and Ahipara, where I found the Natives very sick and wishing to draw out of the arrangements proposed by Lieut.-Colonel McDonnell for Victoria A^alley. I managed to set this right. Thence to Herikino ; found the Natives discontented about their portion of the valley. Uhiroa Block —put that right; paid a deposit on account of purchase of Epakanui. Thence to AVliangape; afterwards to AVi Tana Papahia's settlement, Hokianga. I instructed Mr. Nelson to negotiate with Wi Tana for the purchase of his tribe's interest, " Raruwa," in the A'ictoria A'alley. After that we went to Herd's Point and Taheke, and I rode out with Lieut.-Colonel McDonnell to see Otaua (Mr. Stannus Jones' negotiation), so as to be able to report on it. I did report on it to the Government. We then examined the country between Taheke and Ohaeawae. At Ohaeawae I paid deposits on several blocks of land. We then went to Russell and took steamer for Auckland, reaching Auckland on, I think, the 17th July, 1874. During this trip I was negotiating for blocks which I reported on about

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23rd July, comprising about 300,000 acres. Lieut.-Colonel McDonnell says a good deal about me having bigher pay than be; this was lucky for me on this trip, inasmuch as, though he was drawing 10s. Od. a day travelling allowance, he allowed me to pay for everything for him; indeed that was nearly always the case, but this I did not grumble at, as we were on very friendly terms, and he told me he was very hard-up. After this trip I had to come down to Wellington, and was in constant communicatioa ■with Lieut.-Colonel McDonnell, the tone of whose correspondence will be seen in the annexed telegrams and letters (marked F). I promised to him that I would see the Native Minister, and try and get him an increase of pay, and the colonial medal he was very anxious about obtaining. I may add that I mentioned both subjects to the Native Minister, but without success. Whilst in Wellington, I did hear rumours that Lieut.-Colonel McDonnell was acting for other persons, and I wired him to be cautious. His answer is contained in the two telegrams of Bth August (marked F 6 and 7). As exemplifying Lieut.-Colonel McDonnell's opinion of me, I beg the Committee to kindly read his letter to me, of the 14th October, 1874 (marked F 11), by which it appears that instead of being, in his opinion, a scoundrel and a Yankee sharper, I was an energetic and capital fellow to deal with. This letter was written in consequence of my having heard that he had spoken against me, and of my taxing him with it. There are still two more letters of the 12th and 17th January, 1875 (F 12 and F 18), the very time during which he was doing his best to injure me with the Native Minister. Could their tone have been more friendly had he been urging things in my favour instead of backbiting me ? I think Lieut.-Colonel McDonnell's duplicity and treachery to me will be pretty apparent by the business letters which I have attached, and have referred to. In September I was obliged to go back to Wellington, and on the 17th September, at Ohaeawae, I gave him £300 in cash and £200 in cheques, or an order to draw for that amount for payment for land-purchase advances, when he should go to Mongakahia, according to my instructions, to reduce the price of the Pekapekarau and Waerekahakaha blocks from 2s. 6d. to Is. 3d. I enclose a copy of memorandum of expenses by him during the months of September and October 1874 (marked F), and there are a few items to which I want to call attention. For instance, there are claims (£l3 165.) for horse hire. All this time Lieut.-Colonel McDonnell was drawing, I now learn, three shillings a day forage, and was supposed to be keeping a horse. He has to certify on the vouchers he sends to Government that he does keep a horse on public service. He has never kept one in the North for Government work since I have been there, and I am much mistaken if he is not drawing forage allowance to this day, and making false returns every month. Vouchers in the Treasury will show he was drawing some £54 a year, but I thought this might be some extra allowance till I lately inquired, and was informed of what it w ras. An item is shown of £50, paid as a bonus for reducing the price of Pekapekarau. In June of this year I was at Kaihu, with Judge Symonds, Mr. Clendon, and Mr. Nelson. In paying money for blocks there, the question arose as to how the Natives had received this £50 as a bonus, and i hinted to them that I could not allow it, and would probably deduct it. I saw Paorokiwi and other Natives who were there at the time the money was paid, also Wharapapo, the man who signed the vouchers as witness, and they all denied having received £50, and stated" it was a sum of £15 they had received and no more. Mr. Clendon assured me that the Natives were right: he was at Mongakahia and in the room when the money was paid. I had written to Mr. Clendon about it (a copy of his reply, marked I, being attached), but 1 did not like taking any action in this until I had seen the Natives, which was not till last June. The Government have been made aware; I do not know what action they have taken. In these amounts there are also two items (Nos. 59 and 46), Lieut.-Colonel McDonnell's expenses, £21 155., and an hotel bill, Kaihu, £4 (Nos. 15 and 16). I have always been very dubious about this claim, especially as he drew ten shillings and sixpence a day travelling expenses, and he had no right to charge any more. The item 31 is alluded to in a letter to me from Mr. Nelson, which I have his permission to show, and a copy of which I enclose, marked J. The item 35 is curious from the fact that the bill is paid to one Ahipara, publican, when Lieut.-Colonel McDonnell was at Herd's Point. The total amount, £202 13s. Id., came out of the funds supplied by me to Lieut.-Colonel McDonnell, and I sent in the vouchers as given me by him, and they were charged against me. They were returned to me for my remarks, and I was unable to certify to a good many of the items. I have had no further instructions to inquire into them. I also attach a letter (marked 2) from Mr. Dalton, of sth October, 1875, on the subject of this present inquiry. This statement was read to Mr. Dalton by my solicitor, Mr. Moorhouse, after which Mr. Dalton again read it over in his presence, paragraph by paragraph, and initialed each of them. E. T. Beissendef. Taken and sworn before me, at Wellington, this 7th day of October, IS7s—John W. Williams, J.P. Remaeks on Question 696 and Letter marked K. 696. Mr. Dalton says that he loaned me £30 because I was short of money. That fact is that Mr. Dalton drew orders on me for £26 55., in favour of Mr. Yarborough, in June last, at Hokianga, which I paid. I gave Mr. Dalton the balance (£3 155.) in cash—total £30. For this I received an order on the Inspector of Surveys for £30. This sum I have never received. The letter attached (marked X), dated 19th December, 1874, will, I think, prove that I was not in Mr. Dalton's debt, and disprove his answer to question 696 in printed evidence. —E. T. B. P.S.—Mr. Dalton has not been employed by me since September, 1874.— E. T. B. (K.) Mr. J. E. Dalton to Mr. E. T. Beissenden. Deae Sic, — Pakia, 19th December, 1874. 1 have just this minute received yours of the 14th instant, and am very sorry to hear that my father should in any way interfere with my business, or should in any way annoy you. Ido not think he will repeat it, as I have written to him. I do not exactly understand the part of your letter in which you say that "he seems to think that I have been and am living off your earnings." He knows

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perfectly well who it is that has been keeping me for the last ten years, and I assure you, Mr. Brissenden, that I am greatly grieved to think that he should in any way put himself forward to speak to you upon a subject that has nothing whatever to do with him. . 1 can only beg of you to put up with it this once. You say you will forward a statement of accounts by next mail. 1 think, if you do not mind, it would be quite as well to leave it until you come North. You say you think it is quite time the cord was cut between us. Of course I can only grin and bear it ; but do you think it is quite fair to visit the sins of the father upon the son, and to make him bear it. But it is not for me to grumble : you are the master, I the man. I am exceedingly obliged to you for your kind offer to assist me personally, but I must start afresh, and I think I shall try some other colony —at all events, some other province. Merryman is with me on these surveys, so I will push him along, and leave him to finish. In the meantime, if you have no objection, I will send you down the form to draw, as I promised, immediately upon Mr. Smith's accepting it. I wrote to you a few days ago, and you will see from the tone of the letter that I was not aware that anything had transpired between yourself and my father. I cannot hear of anything in reference to business up here, my being in the bush ; but should I, I will write immediately. Thanking you kindly for all your past favours, I have, &c, E. T. Brissenden, Esq. J. Edwin Dalton. Letters, Telegrams, and Vouchers, referred to in Mr. Brissenden's Statement to the Tairua Committee of sth October, 1875. (A.) Ohaeawae, 29th June, 1874. Ekceited from Edwin Tor; ens Brissenden, Esquire, Agent for Land Purchase under the Immigration and Public Works Act, the sum of fifteen pounds sterling, being a payment on account for the Awarua block of land, situated between Maungakahia and Tautoru, as by schedule attached, which we agree to sell to Her Majesty Queen Victoria for the sum of one shilling and sixpence per acre ; estimated to contain ten thousand acres. Wieemuea, x. Peita te Hatjeango, x. Witness—James Edwin Dalton. Hoei Baki. (B.) Mr. J. W. Peeece to Mr. E. T. Beissenden. (Telegram.) Auckland, 27th September, 1875. The block you refer to was a kauri forest on the Tanowahone Creek, a branch of the Wairoa, and was purchased by Mr. Dargaville from Parore, before you were employed purchasing in the North. The firm of Preece and Graham, of which I was then a member, was employed by Mr. Dargaville to survey the land and perfect the title, and the block was surveyed by Mr. W. Graham. While the survey was going on, Mr. Dalton, who was surveying the Tutamoe block for the Government, did attempt to encroach on Mr. Dargaville's block and the blocks belonging to the Kopuru Saw-mill Company, for whom we were also acting, which encroachment we resisted ; and, had he persisted in it, the probability then would have been a difficulty in the Government acquiring the Tutamoe block at all. However, Parore went with Mr. Graham, and made Dalton alter his line. I was at that time, and for some time after, a private agent, and in no way connected with the Government. We were Mr. Dargaville's agents. Ido not know of your being connected with the matter in any way, any more than that the surveyors employed by you were interfering with our proceedings, and we did our duty to our clients, and prevented them. When the case came before the Land Court, Parore was found to be the sole owner. J. W. Peeece, Land Purchase Agent. (82.) Mr. G. H. Holdship to Mr. E. T. Bbissenden. (Telegram.) Auckland, 21st September, 1875. Be Kauri, Putiti. I did not employ you to purchase. I asked you whether my negotiations would, prejudice your operations. G. H. Holdship. (C) Mr. J. E. Dalton to Mr. E. T. Beissenden. Deae Sic, — Mangakahia, 17th November, 1874. I take the liberty of dropping you this note, Mr. Nelson not having answered mine. I am compelled to go through to Ohaeawae to fetch my protractor, having waited as long as I possibly can for Mr. Nelson to fulfil his promise. lam sure I do not know how he expects me to do the survey : he knows, I suppose, that I am ou the ground, and that is all he cares about. I have completed Colonel McDonnell's piece, and the Maungara, Pekapekarau, and Karaka boundaries. I start the top boundary via Tutamoe ; thence down the Opunake on to Kaihu. I shall have it all finished in a fortnight, and shall have to make arrangements about my men off. I hear from my father that you have succeeded in getting the compensation money from the Government; kindly drop me a line, and let me know what block lamtogo on with. When I have finished this block, it will contain about 40,000 acres, or a little more. The land for the Colonel will be about 2,000 acres of fine alluvial land, wit.h a very good kauri bush upon it. I hear from the Natives that Captain Heale wanted Stephens to do the block, and you would not hear of it. lam exceedingly obliged to you for fighting my battle for me. I have, &c, E. T. Brissendeu, Esq. J. Edwin Dalton.

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(D.) Mr. E. C. Davis to Mr. E. T. Beissewden. Deae Sib,— Eussell, 6th. November, 1874. I have this day received a cheque from the Treasury for £77 10s., being the amount in full for survey of Awarua block. I sent my voucher in to Mr. Heale for the full amount, supposing that £30 you gave me would have been deducted from it. If you will write and let me know what to do about the matter, I shall feel obliged. I would send you a cheque for it at once if I was certain of your address. I dare say either yourself or Colonel McDonnell will be up here shortly, and we can then settle the business. lam sorry to say I cannot at present go on with the survey of Tautoro block, as there is considerable difficulty about it with the Natives, but I hope it will soon be settled. Hoping to see you or hear by next steamer, I have, &c, E. T. Brissenden, Esq. E. C. Davis. (E.) Mr. E. T. Bbissenden to Mr. Dalton. (Telegram.) Wellington, sth August, 1875. Do not come here. I leave shortly. Let me know what post office lam to send money for you. E. T. Brissenden. (El.) Mr. E. T. Beissenden to Mr. Dalton. (Telegram.) Wellington, 12th August, 1875. Cash at post office. Meet at Auckland end of next week. Eeturn via Taupo. Give Piercy five. Keep business matter right. E. T. Beissenden. (E2.) Mr. E. T. Beissenden to Mr. Dalton. (Telegram.) Wellington, 13th August, 1875. Take blank promissory note with you. Get it signed in your favour by owners of Patetere block for amount of your survey. E. T. Beissenden. (E3.) Mr. E. T. Beissenden to Mr. Dalton. (Telegram.) Wellington, 15th August, 1875. Pick up all information you can at Maketu and on the Thames. Make matters easy for future work. E. T. Beissenden. (P.) Colonel McDonnell to Mr. Beissenden. My deae Beissenden, — Auckland, 4th August, 1874. I have yours of the 31st ultimo to hand. I see your interview with the Native Minister seems to have been satisfactory so far. I hope as little delay as possible will occur till matters are properly arranged for the future carrying on of what has been begun. I hope you may be able to carry your points ; and what we have talked over together, I trust you will remember. I have as yet no reply to a letter I wrote in June last, stating how I have been fettered in action and means; also, not least, requesting to be placed on a more equal footing with other Land Purchase Agents, as regards pay, &c. It is to be hoped a satisfactory reply, too, will be forthcoming on this head. A tenpenny nail cannot be driven with a sixpenny hammer. I have not seen Nelson or heard anything more of him: I am not likely to clash with him. I ought to go North nest Monday. Williams is doing harm, and the Natives are anxiously looking for me. I need say no more. You will have received a telegram before you get this note, but telegraph to me on receipt of this and tell me when you return, and anything of interest. Should I leave for the North, I will leave a letter telling you when to look for me. Eemember the South, and urge the surveys ; this is of importance. I remain, &c., Thomas McDonnell. P.S. —Eeceive all that is sent with care. (PI.) Colonel McDonnell to Mr. Beissenden. My deae Me. Beissenden, — Bay of Islands, 2nd September, 1874. I regret that you were obliged to remain till the next trip of the steamer, but that cannot be helped now. You may remember that I wrote or telegraphed to you that if I did not leave here as I promised the Natives, I vowed that there would most likely be trouble. The Natives assembled to meet me, I could not come, and they are much disgusted; and now it is " every man to his tent," and much is left for me to undo and place square. The fact is, that this delay has played into the hands of certain parties interested in the Government not obtaining land, and much of our past work is in a fair way to be rendered more than useless. Lose no time in coming l»y the next steamer. B—l. 1.

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I thought you had desired Mr. Nelson not to interfere with certain blocks. This he has done, and in consequence, I, seeing in the future, if this sort of thing is to go on, feel that under the circumstances it were better for me not to act in getting land here, but request to be sent down here, or resign altogether. I will not be made a fool of, however. I await your arrival by return boat. What I have said to you was what I fully intended to carry out, as a gentleman should, but if two offers are made for blocks we are dealing with, it puts the Natives up to tricks, and the result 1 tell you honestly will be that a mess will be made of all lands reported as being under negotiation, and the Native Land Court will not in consequence pass them this or next year, or before the next nession, and future negotiations will be much delayed. Stephenson has promised me to procure some kumaras and send them to your address. I have, &c, Thomas McDonnell. P.S.—I will explain other matters to you when I see you next Tuesday. (F2.) Lieut.-Colonel McDonnell to Mr. E. T. Beissexden. (Telegram.) Auckland, 27th July, 1874. Hate written to Northern Natives to expect me in two weeks. Will require money, but will telegraph again. Mrs. McD. called Saturday ; your people all right Thos. McDonnell. (F3.) Lieut.-Colonel McDonnell to Mr. E. T. Brissexden. (Telegram.) Auckland, 27th July, 1874. AHrPAKA letter to hand from Masters. Typhoid fever still going on; more Natives dead; others dying. List of medicine required sent to me in letter. Wine wanted to be sent. Obtain authority for me to get these things. I will forward them at once. Lose no time. Thos. McDonnell. (fIT Lieut.-Colonel McDonnell to Mr. E. T. Beissenden. (Telegram.) Auckland, 27th July, 1874. Moxey spent: Waoku, 50; Waere Kahakaha, 20. Nakaha, new block, 3,000 acres, at Mangakahia, 30 at shillings two. Native letters requesting lands to be surveyed quickly. This is urgent. Walker succeeded getting Epikauri, near Ahipara; sugar did it. Thos. McDonnell. (F5.) Lieut.-Colonel McDonnell to Mr. E. T. Bhissenden. (Telegram.) Auckland, Ist August, 1874. Adtise make applications Native Land Court for land under treaty. Send me list of blocks, with names of owners attached to each. No telegrams from you. I ought to go North soon. Expect hear from you Monday next. Must reply to Maning's letter. Thos. McDonnell. (F6.) Lieut.-Colonel McDonnell to Mr. E. T. Brissenden. (Telegram.) Auckland, sth August, 1874. Posted reply. North next Monday. If possible mention day you return. Any news respecting self? Inportant reply. Thos. McDonnell. (F7.) Mr. E. T. Beissenden to Lieut.-Colonel McDonnell, (Telegram.) Wellington, Bth August. 1874. Am astonished at your message. I believe I shall leave here on Monday. It is hard to push business. lam not the only one requiring the Government's attention. See the result of my visit, then judge ; it will be more just. E. T. Beissenden. (FB.) Lieut.-Colonel McDonnell to Mr. E. T. Beissenden. (Telegram.) Auckland, Bth August, 1874. Infoemed you caused rumours am not assisting. No letter from Government about me. Thos. McDonnell. (F9.) Lieut.-Colonel McDonnell to Mr. E. T. Beissenden. (Telegram.) Auckland, 10th August, 1874. Did not say I believed. Letters from Mitai right, more land. Do not North to-day, Mrs. McDonnell dangerously ill; but send money if can. Natives missed passage. Thos. McDonnell.

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(F10.)

Mt deak Brissenden, — Ohaeawae, 23rd September, 1874. No news as yet of the return steamer; the gales have been too strong. Since you left I have had an awful time of it, which went nigh to drive me mad ; the pain all over my front racked me so. Dr. Dalten blistered and dosed, dosed and blistered; he did me much good, and his timely arrival. owing to your taking upon yourself to send for him, I firmly am convinced, saved me, and his fee of £5 ss. was gratefully paid. They charged him even for the few drops of oil to allay the smart of the blister in dressing it,—yes, eveu to the strip of calico sis inches wide to go round me: not content with this, they have charged me during the whole time as if I have eaten and drunk as I should had I been a strong and hungry man at the time. I have paid it though, but it is more than I can afford, with the horse hire and messengers. I hope you will be able to assist me in recovering something. It is not that lam stingy, but the last pound or extra pinch forces the toad out. lam very weak and not fit for much, and were it not there is a great deal at stake, I would run up and lay by in Auckland ; but as soon as the weather clears we go to Mangakahia. Tautoro rolls on like a ball of snow. I paid one £5 to-day, and then a £20 for good blocks attached to the main piece. Survey is to be commenced directly surveyors can be had. What a pity it is Blucher cannot be put to work ; this is waste of time. I paid £10 on the land adjoining Waitaroto, which makes that advance up to £15; it stops at that. You did not leave me any cheques, if I required more money against your return. Tell me if you have arranged that I can draw, as it is probable I will want to ; but in case I require and do not hear from you, I can get money and give an order on you for the amount. I hope to get the big block for elevenpence or one shilling an acre. Mangakahia Natives are angry at the proposal to reduce the two shillings and sixpence an acre; but I like dealing with an angry mob of Natives ; it soothes me. Wishing I were well out of this infernal, sickening, brutal hole, I have, &c, Thos. McDonnell. (F 11.) Mt deab Buissendeit, — Upton's Library, Auckland, 24th October, 1874. I have just heard that Major Green has been repeating to you some remarks I made to him, which is calculated to make mischief between us. My remarks were of the same nature as often made to you, to the effect that I have much work, and am not paid a fair rate, others being taken into consideration. I also said I had a good mind to resign, but not that I would, as I have told you. I, at the same time, remember remarking to Major Green that you were an energetic and capital fellow to work with. I also did express to him that I felt annoyed at the money not being paid to the account at the New Zealand Bank (the £20), and that Jones had cashed the cheque. Major Green then told me it must be a mistake of the Bank, as he had heard you tell them about it; so there was an end of that. I wrote at once to put things square, as so much mischief is done by repeating talk of this kind. What I have said to you in reference to other affairs, I fully intend to carry out, as time will prove; that is, unless you form other resolves. I have, &c, Thomas McDonnell. P.S.—-You can make any use of this note you think proper. (F12.) Mt beak Beissenden, — Government Buildings, Auckland, 12th January, 1875. I have been hunting for you all day. I wish to see you particularly, as Sir D. McLean wishes a report of lands North sent to him as soon as possible. I will meet you to-morrow at the stables you put up at by 10 o'clock a.m. I want to get at the sums advanced on each block. I have, &c, Thos. McDonnell. (F13.) Deae Bkissenden, — Auckland, 17th January, 1875. Watching about town looking for you is, I find, tedious. I came in at 9 a.m., and now it is past 1 p.m., and lam going home. I want to see you, so leave word with the stable man if you are coming in to-morrow, and the time, and I will be there; if not, and that it be convenient, I will take a stroll out to your place. I have, &c., Thos. McDonnell. (G.) Maungakahia, June 27th, 1874. Receited from Edwin Torrens Brissenden, Esq., agent for land purchase under " The Immigration and Public Works Act," (he sum of ten pounds sterling, being a payment on account of KairaraTotarapoka block of land, estimated to contain 15,000 acres, situated at Maungakahia, which we agree to sell to Her Majesty Queen Victoria for the sum of one shilling per acre. Ramaetjetj Whabepapa. Haee Pote. Witness—E. H. Wright. Te Weeu.

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(H.) MEMORANDUM of Expenses (vouchers handed to me by Colonel McDonnell), incurred from 4th September to 26th October, 1874.

(I) Mr. J. S. Clendon to Mr. E. T. Beissenden. Deae Sic, — Helensville, Kaipara, 14th February, 1875. Iv reply to your letter of the 18th of January last, I can only state that, whilst superintending road works at Mangakahia last year under Mr. Wilson, I attended a meeting of the Natives at that place, culled together by Colonel McDonnell, and the Natives distinctly agreed with Colonel McDonnell to reduce the price of the following blocks :—Waerekahakaha and Pekapekarau, from 2s. 6d. per acre to Is. 3d., as follows:—The amounts already paid on said lands to be calculated in acreage at the said sum of 2s. 6d. The kauri land to be, I believe, at 2s. per acre, and the remainder at Is. 3d. Colonel McDonnell paid them (the Natives) a bonus of £15 on making the arrangement of deduction —not as you mentioned to me, £50; you must undoubtedly be under a wrong impression in that respect. The Natives all agreed to the arrangement, and I believe afterwards obtained, at their own special request from Colonel McDonnell, orders to draw from Mr. Wright any goods they may require to the amount of £250. I trust this explanation will be what you require, as it contains all my knowledge upon the matter. Tours, Ac, James S. Cuatvav. (J.) Deae Bkissenden, — Whangape, Bth October, 1874. I arrived here last night from Ahipara, and may be engaged for a day or two negotiating for lands in the neighbourhood, including some valuable kauri. I forward this by Maori going to Herd's.

"o. 1. Sept. 4. —To Messenger to Mangakahia 2. 5. — „ Refreshments to Natives at Taheko (Hudson) ... 3. 6. — „ Horse Hire, 4th, 5th, and 6th September (Hape) 4. 7.— „ Board, Lodging, and Refreshments (Hudson) ... 5. 7. — „ Fares, Bay of Islands (Williams) 7. 7.— „ Do. for Natives from Russell 8. 22.— „ Expenses negotiating Land near Tautaro (Wyatt) 9. 22.— „ Pointing out Boundaries, Mitai Pene 10. 22. — „ Messenger to Mangakahia 11. 23.— ,, Do. to Wangaroa 12. 24.— „ Do. to M. Te Kura 13. 26.— „ Board and Lodging, Natives, Mangakahia 14. 29.— „ Services Account, Tutamoe and Kairara (Parore) 15. 30.— „ Hotel Bill, Kaihu 16. 30.— „ Do. 17. 30.— „ Provisions Bill, Dargaville and Co. ... 18. 30.— „ Services at Mangakahia (Mitai Pene) 19. 30.— ,, Do. do. (HoriMokeui) 20. Oct. 1.— „ Do. Tutamoe and Kairara (Mitai Mene) 21. 2.— „ Do. do. (Timoti) 22. 2.— ,, Bonus reducing price of Pekapekarau, Warakahakahu, and Opoateki —paid Paore Kiwi, Patuera, Matou te Aramu 23. 2.— „ First Payment to Wharapapa, Services Account, Tutamoe 24. 2.— „ Services, Tutamoe and Kairara (Wright) 25. 2.— ,, Do. of Guide to Tutamoe 26. 3.— „ Boat Hire, Hokianga (Hone) 27. 3.— „ Do. do. 28. 6.— „ Services, Waka Ranganui (Epakanui) 29. 6.— „ Supplies to Natives at Herekino (Karana) 30. 6— „ Services, Takahu and Arawhana (Timoti Puhipi) 31. 7. — „ Supplies to Natives at Ahipara (Bingham) 32. 8. — „ Horse Hire at Hokianga 33. 8. — „ Services, Wi Tona Papahia ... 34. 9.— „ Boat Hire, Herd's Point ... 35. 9. — „ Expenses negotiating Land, Ahipara (Bingham) 36. 10. — „ Paddocking Horso at Tahoki 37. 10.— „ Boat Hire and Food for Natives 38. Sept. 17. — ,, Horse Hire, 43 days (Kino) 39. 17. — „ Claimed by Colonel McDonnell for Expenses (no voucher) 40. 15. — „ Expenses, Kawa (Challagher) 42. 16.— „ Native Account, Horse Hire (T. Wyatt) 41. 21.— „ Coach Fare, Helensville 40. 17.— „ Provisions for Natives at Kaihu 43. 26.— „ Passage, Bay of Islands 46. 26.— „ Claimed by Colonel McDonnell for Expenses (Wyatt) ... 60. 7.— „ Horse Hire charged to E. T. B. 0 15 » 0 5 0 14 0 1 18 6 0 16 0 0 6 0 11 9 O 0 10 0 10 0 15 0 0 17 6 1 16 O 10 0 0 1 0 O 3 0 0 1 10 6 7 0 0 5 5 0 2 15 0 2 10 0 50 0 0 10 0 0 7 0 0 2 10 0 0 12 0 1 16 0 10 0 0 0 18 0 5 0 0 3 0 0 2 0 0 5 0 0 10 0 2 16 0 8 0 10 0 8 12 0 9 0 0 1 13 0 10 5 7 0 7 0 0 9 6 15 0 12 15 0 18 0 £202 13 1

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Point, where I wish you to wait for me. McDonnell arrived here during my stay. However, I happened to find out that he was coming down here to do a little electioneering, as well as land purchasing. Timoti Puhipi told me that " the Government had been deceiving the Natives, by saying that they wanted the land for the purpose of settlements, while it was bought to enable them to borrow more money in England." Do you see? While here the gallant Colonel entertained me with one of the most doleful recitals it has ever been my fate to listen to. Allah Kerim ! the treatment this bellipotent individual has received at the hands of the Native Minister is simply scandalous ; but as you have no doubt had specimens of the wily claptrap, I shall not annoy you with recapitulation. Neverless I cannot refrain from remarking that any human carcase so stuffed with empty pride, invective, and ingratitude is anything but a safe associate; nay I'll even go further, and would ask you to keep a good look-out ahead, lest you be drawn into some of those gaping vortices, ever ready to suck you in if you should happen to get inside the periphery of their attractive power. As for jaw, 0 Lord !I am verily a convert to the Biblical definition of the power of the jawbone of an ass in smiting Philistines, after having been belaboured for six solid hours by the jawbones of this military elegist. Tou believed him when he said that he had permission to join Stannus Jones in the Otawa purchase, though I never did, and since then I have paid a deposit upon the land fronting this castle in Spain of his, as I deny his rights to speculate while ostensibly serving the Government. Mind you, lam too well acquainted with the fact that feigned obeisance to the powers that be is often (perhaps very often) of great advantage to the fawning parasite, and I have myself been most assiduously traduced by one or two of this reptile species of the genus Homo, whose peculiar idiosyncracy is a most aggravating affability, and, you may believe me, I have not forgotten the bureaucratic power .of these otherwise empty vessels. Now, Brissenden, I would advise you again and again to give this official pessimist plenty of sea room : avoid him as you would the yellow-jack. One person told me that he asked him to sigu a blank receipt, and while we were at Ahipara yesterday, he did not pay his bill openly, but went into another room to hold a conference with the publican (Berrigan or Berghan), which to say the least seemed strange, especially as his account could not have been more than £1 or £1 10s. Think as you like, but listen to me : say nothing, but sheer off, and keep your weather-gage. After this little bit of traverse-sailing, I'll come to an anchor. Tours, &c, Chaeles E. Nelson. I hereby certify that this is a correct copy —W. S. Moorhouse.

CORRESPONDENCE LAID BEFORE THE COMMITTEE. Mr. S. Jones to Lieut.-Colonel McDonnell. [Extracts only.'] Northern Club, Auckland, 13th September, 1875. I don't know that I have any letters or documents about our land, except the letter I wrote last August, when in Wellington, to McLean. He distinctly told me it was all right, but not to take more than 5,000 acres. I explained exactly what I was about, and said I was disappointed through the Maoris, and did not wish to be again. Brissenden assured me there would be no difficulty, but I think he intended always that I should not have it. Except that letter, T have no other document. I could repeat conversations I have had with 8., but what is the good ? He told me that Pollen had asked him to lease some place at the Kaipara, called Buhela, near Pollen's run, and that he (B.) said he would cut it off" in making the Government purchase. Pollen told him he did not want to appear in the matter. This conversation B. told me took place when they were going to "Wellington together Tours, &c, Stanntts Jones. Major Geeen to Lieut.-Colonel McDonnell. Dear McDonnell, — Auckland, 29th September, 1875. I hasten to reply to your note. I distinctly recollect your coming into my office and telling me you told Dr. .Pollen about Brissenden spreading certain reports about him (the Dr.) wanting B. to purchase a block of land for him; and I also recollect you saying that you had written officially to Sir D. McLean about some offer Brissenden made to you relative to purchase of land. I was called upon by Clarke to say whether I had a certain letter recorded in my office. I replied, " No." I ■will never back oat of anything; and I shall face any disagreeable duty for any friend. Why do you not ask Dr. Pollen about this circumstance ? All I know is, that you came into my office from his, and told me what you had informed him of Brissenden. In great haste. Tours, &c, Edwabd Geeen. Colonel McDonnell to Sir G. Gset, K.C.B. Sib,— Wellington, September 16th, 1875. The dates 18th, 19th, and 20th of October in my diary will prove I had my suspicions that some unfair play was going forward about kauri bushes, that has since been pretty well established by evidence. I have the honor to enclose the diary in question. When I had the long conversation with Sir Donald in Auckland about Mr. Brissenden's statements and offers to myself, and which I afterwards at his request put in writing, I could not help feeling that Mr. Brissenden had used the influence he had to get me removed, so that he could carry out his plans to cut kauri bushes out from the land I had purchased for the Government; and I had, previously" to my conversation with the Hon. the Native Minister, been told by him that after the Victoria.' Valley purchase was completed there would be no more employment for me, and that I had better petition the House. But on Sir Donald's return from Waikato, Major Green, the Government Agent,

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took a message from me to that gentleman, and Major Green told me the following day that lie (Sir Donald) was much pleased at my giving up Victoria Valley, and that he would assent to my request, and give me a good appointment South. So I wrote to the Natives North, and told them to settle quickly about the lands, but at the same time not to let any kauri be cut out from those lands by private parties. After this I left Auckland to come South, in the p.s. " Luna," last March. I have the honor to state that I have been so anxious to secure land for the Government that, when I could not get money, I have in my own name borrowed repeatedly from hotelkeepers and storekeepers, and in one urgent case obtained money at 25 per cent, interest from Mr. Stannus Jones, for which I, and not the Government, paid for. The first advance on the Mokau block was paid for by a private cheque of my own for £20. I have, &c, Sir George Grey, X.C.8., &c, Thomas McDonnell. Chairman of the Tairua Committee. Colonel McDonnell to Sir G. Geet, K.C.B. Sib— Wellington, 18th September, 1875. With reference to the Otaua block, I stated in my evidence before the Tairua Committee that, at a meeting held by Sir Donald McLean at Haruru, Bay of Islands, in January last, I had called his attention to the Otaua land, saying that that was the block for Mr. Stannus Jones. I took a few notes at that meeting, and yesterday I found the memorandum book I wrote them down in, which I enclose. On the second page from where I began, I perceive I made a note as follows:—" Mentioned to Sir Donald about Otaua for Jones." I have, &c, Sir George Grey, X.C.8., &c, Tiiomas McDonnell. Chairman of the Tairua Committee. Mr. E. T. Bbissenden to Mr. J. E. Dalton. Sib,— Kaihu, 12th November, 1874. I have just been interviewed by Mr. Dargaville and Parore about the piece of land you have taken into the survey of Tutamoe block. I enclose a sketch of the locality. You should not have gone to the east bank of Tangowahine Creek, but kept the west bank. I have arranged with Parore that such shall be the case; so you will please return and cut out the piece encroached upon. Mr. Dargaville is to pay for all expenses you are put to —such as loss of acreage, loss of time, Ac. Have no fear, I will see that he fulfils that part of his agreement. lam most anxious to see you, for many reasons. I am informed you wrote an account of your work to McDonnell. I am somewhat astonished not to have been the one chosen by you for such statements. I have received the Patetere survey money for you, aud have stuck to it till we meet, for there was so much said about it, and so many claimants, I thought it best for you to make the distribution. I am now off for Wangarei with Mr. Nelson ; shall make the Bay of Islands ; go north ; return this way, via Hokianga, in about three weeks. Be sure to leave directions here for me where you are to be found. If in future you wish to write about your work, or have any other information, please remember that I am the one to write to. I have, &c, E. T. Bbissenden. J. E. Dalton, Esq., Tutamoe. Mr. H. T. Claeke to Major Gbeen. (Telegram.) ' Wellington, 27th August, 1875. No. 347. Have you a letter filed in your office from Colonel McDonnell, stating that Mr. Brissenden had informed him that he was authorized to purchase land for private parties —Hon. Sir Julius Vogel and Dr. Pollen amongst the number ? Date of letter said to be 25th January last. H. T. Clabke, U.S. Mr. H. T. Kemp to Mr. H. T. Claeke. (Telegram.) Auckland, 27th August, 1875. Me your 304, no such letter in this office. H. T. Kemp, C.C. Major Gbeen to Mr. H. T. Claeke. (Telegram.) Auckland, 27th August, 1875. No. 478 ; no such letter is recorded in this office. Edwd. L. Geeen, (for General Government Agent). Mr. J. E. Dalton to the Chaibman, Tairua Investigation Committee. Sic, — Wellington, 7th October, 1875. I have the honor herewith to beg to be examined on oath in reference to Mr. Brissenden's statement, wherein I have initialed certain passages ; and state that, having read the same over, find them to be incorrect. I can only add, in my own defence, that I signed it without mature consideration, and upon the spur of the moment. I therefore pray you will grant the above request, and examine me. I have, &c, The Chairman, Tairua Investigation Committee. J. E. Dalton.

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Colonel McDonnell to the Chairman, Tairua Investigation Committee. Sib— "Wellington, 28th September, 1875, I have the honor to enclose to you the copy of a letter I received yesterday from Mr. H. T. Clarke, the Under Secretary for Native Affairs ; also, the copy of my reply. I feel deeply the fearful position I have been in, being as it were branded as a perjured man, and disgraced in the eyes of my fellow-men. I sincerely trust, Sir, if I am not out of place, that the gentlemen forming the Committee, though they cannot recall what is past, will take such measures as will seem to them best to set myself clear in this matter before the public, as it has been circulated all over this city that I have made statements upon oath before the Tairua Committee that had no foundation, whatever but in my own imagination. I have, &c. Sir George Grey, X.C.8., Thomas McDonnell. Chairman of the Tairua Committee. H. T. Clarke, Esq., TJnder-Secretary, to Colonel McDonnell. Sic,— Native Office, "Wellington, 27th September, 1875. I am directed by the Hon. the Native Minister to inform you that, on looking over a bundle of papers which were put away on the eve of his departure for Waikato, in search of other documents, he discovered the letter written by you on the 25th January last; and to inform you that it has been placed before the Tairua Investigation Committee. I have, &c, H. T. Clarke, Under Secretary. Colonel McDonnell to H. T. Clarke, Esq. Sib,— "Wellington, 2Sth September, 1875. I have the honor to acknowledge the receipt of a letter from you (number and date as per margin), acquainting me that the Hon. the Native Minister has discovered the letter written to him by me on the 25th of January last. I confess I am surprised that this information was not conveyed to me in a letter from Sir Donald McLean himself; as the anguish of mind I have for many days endured, owing to his denial upon oath that he ever got that letter, and the fearful stigma under which I have lain in consequence, ought in justice to myself to have elicited at the least some expression of regret and apology for what had happened. At the same time, I beg to thank Sir Donald McLean for the honorable and prompt action lie took after the document was found, in laying it at once before the Tairua Investigation Committee. I have, &c, H. T. Clarke, Esq., Under Secretary, Native Office. Thomas McDonnell. Mr. John Gtjilding to Mr. James Mackat. Sic, — Shortland, 16th June, 1875. I have the honor to report that, in accordance with your instructions, I have caused the Native reserve at Tairua to be surveyed; the reserve is 1,000 acres, less 10 acres formerly granted to a person named Patterson by the Natives. I also enclose letters from Natives re the 10 acres to Patterson, and also an application for an old burial-ground, about 30 acres in extent, at Green Point. lam instructed to say that the Natives are ready to purchase this piece of ground if the Government do not wish to grant it. Myself and the surveyors have been detained several days at Tairua waiting the arrival of the Natives to point out the reserve. I have, &c., James Mackay, Esq., Land Purchase Agent, J. "W. R. Guildiitg. General Government, "Wellington. Mr. John Guildino to Mr. James Mackay. (Telegram.) Grahamstown, 25th June, 1875. Hate not got lease of Tairua reserve, but Natives have asked me to lease it. Do not see why I should not take it, as Jackson, of Tairua, will if Ido not; besides which they owe me money. John Guilding. Mr. Gerald O'Hallokan to Mr. James Mackat. (Telegram.) Gramhamstown, 25th June, 1875. Plan of Tairua reserve will be forwarded to-morrow to Land Court. Reserve has been surveyed at urgent request of Natives. Am not aware of any one having obtained leases. Natives have repeatedly asked me to lease reserve. Gerald O'Halloroj. Mr. John Gttilding to Mr. James Mackat. (Telegram.) Grahamstown, 26th June, 1875. I hate no lease of Tairua reserve, but have promise of one from Natives, and have paid money to them, and got receipts ou account of rent. Do not see why I should not take it. John Gutlding.

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Mr. John Gttilding to Mr. James Mackat. (Telegram). Grahamstown, 6th July, 1875. Geace in Auckland to put injunction on Tairua Claim for Natives. Tookey told me. Tookey also says letters in Thames papers, re blocks 27, Hikutaia, &c, are his dictation, and written by Grace. He also says he is Grey's mainstay, and supplies him with all information. Taipari wants Tookey, Grace, and himself to work together. Tookey also says, if I will give you up that he will telegraph to Grey that he was mistaken, and that I have nothing to do with you, and for him to give up all objections to my lease re Tairua reserve. John Guilding. Mr. James Mackat to Mr. John Guilding. (Telegram.) Auckland, 6th July, 1875. Peivate. Thanks for your honorable conduct in the matter. Try and get Tookey to commit himself to writing. Have you any objection to my letting the General Government have a copy of your telegram ? James Mackat. Mr. John Guilding to Mr. James Mackat. (Telegram.) Grahamstown, 6th July, 1875. Will try and get him to commit himself to writing. No objection to your letting General Government have copy. Tautoru anxious to see you re Pakirarahi. John Gpilding. Sir G. Geet to the Hon. the Colonial Seceetaet. (Telegram.) Auckland, 14th June, 1875. I have had shown to me a telegram from Mr. Mackay to the owners of the timber lease of the Tairua block, to the effect that he did not consider them entitled to the lease for forty years of the whole area, but that the lease of parts of it should be resigned. Might Mr. Mackay be requested to supply me at once with a copy of this telegram ? G. Geet. Sir G. Geet to the Hon. the Colonial Seceetaet. (Telegram.) Auckland, 15th June, 1875. The following statement has been made in a letter from Mr. W. A. Graham, agent of the Tairua prospectors: it appears to require explanation, which I request I may be furnished with: —" With reference to inquiry how Crippen got his share, the facts are : The prospectors requested me to offer a share in the claim to Mr. Mackay. I did so, and he refused to accept it, giving his reason it would perhaps be made use of against him in his official capacity. I asked if he would like to give it to O'Halloran or any one else, as a share was at his disposal. The prospectors wished to make up their party to ten men. Mr. Mackay said O'Halloran could not receive a share, for the same reason that he could not, being a Government officer ; but if I liked I might give it to Crippen, who was a private individual, and the only person he could think of at the time to give a share to. I said it mattered not to prospectors who got the share; accordingly Crippen got the share, and thus became one of the party." Geoege Geet. The Hon. the Colonial Seceetaet to Mr. James Mackat. (Telegram.) Wellington, 22nd June, 1875. Sic Geoege Geet has been informed that you have been directed to furnish him with any information he may require relative to the timber lease in the Tairua block. Be good enough to do so. Daniel Pollen, Mr. James Mackat to Sir G. Geet. (Telegram.) Auckland, 25th June, 1875. The Hon. the Colonial Secretary has requested me to give you any information you require relative to the timber leases at Tairua. lam prepared at anytime to give all information in my power respecting that or any other negotiation for land in which I have been engaged on behalf of the Government. James Mackat, Agent General Government. Sir G. Ghet to Mr. James Mackat. Sic, — Superintendent's Office, Auckland, 26th June, 1875. I have just received your telegram, dated yesterday, addressed to me at Grahamstown, in which you state that you are prepared at anytime to give me any information in your power respecting the timber leases at Tairua. I beg to inform you that the information which I require is a copy of the telegram sent by you to the owners of the timber lease, and of which a copy can be supplied by the Telegraph Department, if you have failed to keep one. I have, &c, G. Geet, James Mackay, Esq., General Government Agent, Auckland. Superintendent.

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Mr. James Mackay to Sir G. Gbey. Sic, — Auckland, 26th June, 1875. I have the honor to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of this date, requesting me to furnish you with a copy of a telegram sent by me to the owners of the Tairua timber lease. In reply, I have to request that your Honor will be so good as to state the purport of the telegram to which you allude, and also whether it was on public service or a private telegram, in order that I may be able to trace it. I have, &c, His Honor the Superintendent, Auckland. James Mackay, jun. Sir G. Gkey to Mr. James Mackay. Sic, — Superintendent's Office, Auckland, 26th June, 1875. In reply to your letter of this date, I beg to state that the telegram to which I allude was a telegram from the General Government Agent (Mr. Mackay). It related to public rights in a valuable property, and was, as such, " a Government telegram." I enclose a copy of my telegram to the Hon. Dr. Pollen, of the 14th instant. I have, &c, James Mackay, Esq., General Government Agent, Auckland. G. Geey. Mr. James Mackay to Messrs. Peeece and Graham. (Telegram.) Auckland, 22nd June, 1873. Ist reply to Hon. Mr. O'Rorko's telegram, re Preece and Graham's rights to timber on the Tairua blocks, and on portions of the Omahu, Whangamata, Hikutaia, and Te Karo blocks, I have the honor to state that these rights existed by written documents, between Natives to Tothill and Seccombe, long before I purchased the land for the Crown, and, under my instructions from the Hon. Mr. Ormond, I had no option but to conserve their rights. The deeds of conveyance to the Crown from the Natives show their rights on the face of them. I think that Preece and Graham's rights at Tairua should be confined to the timbered portion of the block only, and the right of way and water easements for timber floating and driving ; and they should give up their lease over the eastern part of the block. The land on which the timber stands is not suitable for settlement or occupation, but is valuable for gold and gum digging only, and for its timber. James Mackay, jun. Mr. James Mackay to Sir G. Geey. Sic,— Auckland, 28th June, 1875. I have the honor, in accordance with the request contained in your letter of the 26tli instant, to enclose herewith a copy of a telegram from myself to the' Hon. Mr. O'Eorke, which was sent at his request to Preece and Graham. This is the only telegram I am aware of about the Tairua timber leases. If there is any other information or explanation which your Honor requires respecting the Tairua timber leases or land purchase, I shall be happy to afford it, if in my power. I have, &c, James Mackay, His Honor the Superintendent, Auckland. Agent General Government. Sir G-. Geey to Mr. James Mackay. Sic, — Superintendent's Office, Aucklaud, 29th June, 1875. I am much obliged to you for a copy of a telegram of 22nd June, 1874, which you inclosed to me in your letter of the 28th instant. In reply to your offer of affording me any further explanations or information, whilst I thank you for that offer, I think it desirable, under present circumstances, to communicate direct with the General Government. I have, &c, James Mackay, Esq., General Government Agent, Auckland. G. Geey.

REPORT OF G. T. WILKINSON LAID BEFORE THE COMMITTEE BY SIR G. GREY. Information concerning the proposed Lease of the Tairua Reserve of 1,000 acres oy private Parties, for the use of his Honor the Superintendent. Dueino the latter end of April or the early part of May last, Messrs. O'Halloran and Guilding went to Mercury Bay to see some of the Natives of that place in connection with the Government land purchases. It was then proposed that Mr. Guilding should have the management of matters in connection with the Tairua reserve of 1,000 acres on behalf of the Native owners, and it was to be surveyed forthwith. The said reserve was granted to the Natives at their request when the purchase of the Tairua block by the Government took place in 1872, Messrs. Mackay and Preece being the agents on behalf of the Government. The Natives wished at that time to have the 1,000 acres divided, and take a portion at Pukiore (the present reserve), and a small portion of 48 acres somewhere at the entrance to the Tairua fiiver. But this, I believe, was overruled, as it was not thought that the Government would issue two Crown grants, and the whole thousand was then arranged to be taken at Pukiore, the Government having agreed at the time of the sale to pay for the survey of the reserve. During the visit of Messrs. O'Hallorau and Guilding, it was decided that the reserve should be at once surveyed, and, on Mr. Guilding's return to the Thames, a Mr. Tole was sent to make the survey. 9—l. 1.

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A letter was sent by Guilding to Peneamine, one of the Native owners, to meet him and the surveyor at Pakirarahi (the site of the Prospectors' Claim, Tairua), and there to point out the boundaries of the reserve. This was done, and it was at that meeting with Peneamine that Guilding proposed that he (Peneamine) should lease the block to himself and Mr. O'Halloran. The terms upon which Guilding wanted the lease for himself and companion were for twenty-one years at £200 per year, or £50 per quarter. This, however, was not then, nor has it been since, wholly agreed to by the Natives, especially as regards the number of years—Peneamine and Miriama wishing the lease to be only a yearly one, or at most for three or four years. Although the matter does not appear by any means to be settled, Mr. Guilding took upon himself to advance to Peneamine and Miriama £15 in cash, and also to take up an account of some £4 owing by them at Mr. Carina's store, Mercury Bay. As soon as the survey should be finished by Mr. Tole, a letter was to be written to the Natives, when they would possibly go over to the Thames or Auckland, and, if the arrangements made were satisfactory to themselves, would perhaps sign the deed of lease. Guilding told them not to go and demand rent from any of the Europeans now living on the block, as that would be payable to himself and co-lessee ; the yearly rent of the block being what the Natives were to receive. The Tairua River is navigable for vessels up to the reserve, the p.s. " Effort" having been up there and discharged passengers and cargo. It does not appear that Mr. O'Halloran took any active part in the transaction, although it seems that he was to have been a party with Guilding in the lease. He does not appear to have been present when the matter of the lease was talked about or when the money was paid; the whole of the business appears up to the present to have been done by Guilding. There is a small portion of the reserve, said to be some three acres or so, which is intended by the Natives to be leased to Mr. Jackson, of Tairua, he having had it for some considerable time, and been in the habit of paying rent yearly to the Natives. It would appear from the foregoing statement that there has been no lease made up to the present time of the Tairua reserve. Neither do the Natives consider that they are in any way bound to grant a lease to Messrs. Guilding and O'Halloran, nothing definite having been agreed to between them; and, from conversations that I held with Miriama, Peneamine, and Matene Pehi, they gave me to understand that they would be willing to lease the reserve to the Government, provided suitable terms could be arranged. But they would wish to be held indemnified as against any action that might be taken by Messrs. Guilding and O'Halloran, should those gentlemen be bold eaough to institute proceedings against them. One of the owners (Peneamine) has written a short note to the Superintendent, in which he partly refers to the matter. Tho above account is from purely Native sources, and as such cannot be relied upon as correct in every particular. I therefore thought it better that I should see if any information was forthcoming from European sources, and from Mr. Carina, of the AVhitianga Hotel, I obtained the following:—That he was present with Mr. Guilding, at his own hotel, and saw the Natives Miriama, Peneamine, and Matene Pehi sign a deed, written out in both English and Maori, which he was given to understand was an agreement to lease the Tairua reserve of 1,000 acres to Messrs. Guilding and O'Halloran, and he says that cheques were made out and signed by Guilding to the amount, he thinks, of nearly £50, and paid to the Natives. There was no other interpreter present than Mr. Guilding himself. George T. Wilkinson, 2nd July, 1875. Licensed Native Interpreter, Thames.

Copy of Writ handed in by Mr. Mackay. Victoeia, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland; Queen. To Miriama Pehi Pukukauri, Peneamene Tanui, Hori Kerei Tuokioki, Metene Pehi, and Marara Hanata, all of Mercury Bay, in the Northern District, in the Province of Auckland, in the Colony of New Zealand, aboriginal natives; John William Eichard Guildiug, of Shortland, in the district of Hauraki, in the province aforesaid, Licensed Interpreter; Gerald O'Halloran, of Shortland aforesaid, Land Agent; and James Mackay, of Shortland aforesaid, Government Agent, Greeting: We command you that, within twenty-nine clear days after and exclusive of the day on which this writ shall be served upon you, you do appear and plead to the declaration of Sir George Grey, Knight Commander of the Most Honorable Order of the Bath, Superintendent of the Province of Auckland, in the Northern District, Colony of New Zealand, hereunto annexed, and cause such pleading to be delivered at the place named on the back hereof. And take notice, if you fail so to plead, the said Sir George Grey may proceed in his action in your absence. Witness — His Honor Thomas Bannatyne Gillies, Esquire, a Judge of our Supreme Court of New Zealand, at Auckland, this ninth day of July, 1875. N.B. —If the last day for delivering your plea shall fall on a Sunday, or a holiday, the plea is to be delivered on the day following. Also, if the last day fall on any day from 25th January to 10th March, both included, the clear days are to be reckoned exclusive of the days from 25th January to 10th March, both included. This writ was sued out by William Lee Eees, of Queen Street, Auckland, in the Province of Auckland, in the Colony of New Zealand, solicitor for plaintiff. The plaintiff claims £21 for his costs in respect of this writ, and service, and incidental thereto, and upon satisfaction of the plaintiff's claim, and payment of the costs to the plaintiff, or his solicitor, within twenty-nine clear days, being the number of days allowed for pleading to the declaration, proceedings in the action will be stayed.

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In the Supreme Court of New Zealand, Northern District. No. 6809. Between Sir George Grey, Knight Commander of the Most Honorable Order of the Bath, Superintendent of the Province of Auckland, in the Colony of New Zealand, plaintiff; and Miriama Pehi Pukukauri, Peneamene Tanui, Hori Kerei Tuokioki, Matene Pehi, and Marara Hanata, all of Mercury Bay, in the said Province of Auckland, aboriginal natives ; John William Bichard Guilding, of Shortland, in the said province, Licensed Interpreter; Gerald O'Halloran, of Shortland aforesaid, Land Agent; and James Mackay, of Shortland aforesaid, Government Agent, defendants. Declaration handed in by Sir G. Grey. The ninth day of July, 1875. The plaintiff, by William Lee Eees, his solicitor, says,— 1. That in the month of December, one thousand eight hundred and seventy-two, the above-named Miriama Pehi Pukukauri, Peneamene Tanui, Hori Kerei Tuokioki, Matene Pehi, and Marara Hanata, were the owners of all that piece or parcel of land in the said Province of Auckland hereinafter described and called or known as Tairua block. (Plan of which is hereunto annexed, marked A.) 2. That the said Miriama Pehi Pukukauri, Peueamene Tanui, Hori Kerei Tuokioki, Matene Pehi, and Marara Hanata, did, on or about the seventh day of December, one thousand eight hundred and seventy-two, grant, sell, and assign the said land unto Her Majesty Queen Victoria by a deed in the words and figures following:— " This deed, made the seventh day of December, one thousand eight hundred and seventy-two between Miriama Pehi Pukukauri, Peneamene Tanui, Hori Kerei Tuokioki, Matene Pehi, Marara Hanata, all of Mercury Bay, in the Province of Auckland, and Colony of New Zealand, aboriginal natives (hereinafter called the said vendors), of the one part, and Her Majesty Queen Victoria of the second part, witnesseth that in consideration of the sum of two thousand nine hundred pounds paid by Her said Majesty Queen Victoria to the said vendors (the receipt whereof they do and each of them doth hereby acknowledge), they, the said vendors, do and each and every of them doth hereby convey and assure unto Her said Majesty Queen Victoria, her successors and assigns (save and except as hereinafter mentioned), all that piece or parcel of land containing by admeasurement thirty-six thousand acres, more or less, situate at Tairua, in the Bay of Plenty, Queen's County, in the province and colony aforesaid, and called or known as Tairua block, the several boundaries of which said piece or parcel of land are the several measurements of the boundary lines thereof are particularly shown and set out on the plan of the piece of land hereby conveyed drawn hereon, together with all the rights, easements, members, and appurtenances thereto belonging, and all deeds thereto relating, and all other rights which the said vendors or any of them have or may have of into or out of the said piece or parcel of land, to hold the same premises unto Her Majesty Queen Victoria, her successors and assigns for ever, subject, nevertheless, to the sale and grant of the timber and trees on the said and the demise of the said land made by a certain deed of grant and demise between the grantors of the one part, and Eichard Seccombe and John Carroll Seccombe (therein described) of the other part, bearing date the sixth day of December, one thousand eight hundred and seventy-two. In witness whereof the said parties have hereunto subscribed their names. " Mieiama Pehi Pukukauei, his x mark. " Peneamene Tanui. " Hoki Keeei Tuokioki, his x mark. " Matene Pehi. " Maeaea Hanata, her x mark. " Signed by the said Miriama Pehi Pukukauri, Peneamene Tanui, Hori Kerei Tuokioki, Mateno Pehi, and Marara Hanata in the presence of " J. W. E, Guilding, " Licensed Interpreter, Shortland, " Geeald O'Halloean, " Land Agent, Shortland." That on the said deed is indorsed the following declaration : — "I, John William Eichard Guilding, of Shortland, in the district of Hauraki, Province of Auckland, and Colony of New Zealand, a duly Licensed Interpreter under ' The Native Lands Act, 1865,' ' The Native Lands Act, 1867,' ' The Native Lands Act Amendment Act, 1868,' ' The Native Lands Act, 1869,' and ' The Native Lands Act Amendment Act, 1870,' do solemnly and sincerely declare as follows :— " (1.) That I was present, together with Gerald O'Halloran, of Shortland aforesaid, Land Agent, a male adult, and did see Miriama Pehi Pukukauri, &c, all mentioned and described in the within written deed, duly sign and execute the said deed. " (2.) That the signatures Peneamene Tanui and Matene Pehi, set and subscribed to the said within written deed, are of the proper handwriting of the said Peneamene Tanui and Matene Pehi respectively; and that the marks ' x,' ' x,' ' x,' thereto set and affixed, were made in our preseuce by the said Miriama Pehi Pukukauri, Hori Kerei Tuokioki, and Marara Hanata respectively. " (3.) That the signatures J. W. E. Guilding and Gerald O'Halloran, set and subscribed to the said within written deed as the witnesses attesting the due execution thereof, are of the proper handwriting of Gerald O'Halloran and me, this declarant, respectively. " (4.) That immediately before the execution of the said deed by the said Miriama Pehi Pukukauri, Peneamene Tanui, Hori Kerei Tuokioki, Matene Pehi, and Marara Hanata, I did interpret the same to them into the Maori language, and that my translation thereof was correct, and was

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understood by the said Miriama Pehi Pukukauri, Peneamene Tanui, Hori Kerei Tuokioki, Matene Pehi, and Marara Hanata. And I make this solemn declaration conscientiously believing the same to be true, and by virtue of the above-named Acts of the General Assembly of New Zealand intituled ' The Justices of the Peace Act, 1866.' "J. W. GUILDING. " Made and declared at Shortland, in the province aforesaid, this 24th day of December, 1872, before me—E. ~W. Ptjcket, one of Her Majesty's Justices of the Peace in and for the Colony of NewZealand." 3. That the said John "William Eichard Guilding, by -whom the said declaration is made, and the Gerald O'Halloran therein mentioned, are the respective defendants of those names. 4. That all circumstances happened, and all times elapsed, and all conditions were fulfilled necessary to entitle Her Majesty Queen Victoria to become fully entitled, under and by virtue of the laws of New Zealand, to take and hold possession of the said land so granted. 5. That in pursuance and exercise of the powers in him vested by " The Immigration and Public "Works Act, 1873," Sir James Fergusson, Bart., Governor of New Zealand, did, on the 25th day of June, one thousand eight hundred and seventy-four, being then satisfied that the said piece or parcel of land called Tairua block had been purchased out of certain moneys to be devoted for that purpose, and that the said land was free from Native claims and all differences in connection therewith, declare, by Proclamation published in the New Zealand Gazette, No. 34, the said land to be waste lands of the Crown, subject, except as in the said Proclamation provided, to be sold and dealt with according to the provisions of the laws for the time being in force in the Province of Auckland regulating the sales and disposal of the waste lands of the Crown within such province, and thereupon the said land, called Tairua block, did become subject to such provisions as aforesaid. • 6. That, on or about the Bth day of April, one thousand eight hundred and seventy-five, His Excellency the Marquis of Normanby, Governor of New Zealand, in pursuance and exercise of the powers in him vested as such Governor by " The Gold Mining Districts Act, 1873," did extend and enlarge the boundaries of a certain gold mining district called the Hauraki Gold Mining District, which said district had been constituted under " The Gold Mining Districts Act, 1871," and was, by section 187 of the said Gold Mining Districts Act, deemed to be a district constituted under the said Act of 1873, so as to include the said land called or known as the Tairua block. 7. That His Excellency the Marquis of Normanby, Governor of New Zealand, and as such Governor, by and with the consent of his Executive Council and under the Public Seal of the Colony of New Zealand, did, on or about the fifteenth day of April last, delegate to the plaintiff, as Superintendent, all the powers vested in the said Governor by the said Gold Mining Districts Act, 1873, which he was so empowered to delegate (without any restrictions whatever). 8. That there is upon the said deed of the seventh day of December, one thousand eight hundred and seventy-two, another indorsement, in the words and "figures following:— " Indorsement. " It is hereby agreed that the Governor of New Zealand shall cause to be issued to Miriama, &c, &c, &c, a Crown grant for one thousand (1,000) acres of the land conveyed to the Queen by the within-written deed; such land to be selected within three months from the date hereof, and to be taken in either one or two blocks, at the option of the said Miriama Pehi Pukukauri. Expense of survey to be borne by the Crown. " James Mackay., jun., " Agent for Land Purchases, Immigration and Public "Works Act. " Witness to signature of James Mackay, jun.— "J. "W. E. Gotxding, " Licensed Interpreter, Shortland." Under and by virtue of which, the said defendants Miriama Pehi Pukukauri, Peneamene Tanui, Hori Kerei Tuokioki, Matene Pehi, and Marara Hanata, claim to be entitled to a part of the said Tairua block, to the extent of one thousand acres. 9. That the signature of the said last-mentioned indorsement is that of the defendant James Mackay. 10. That until the month of May last no selection was made by the said Native defendants under the supposed rights in the said indorsement contained. 11. That no Crown grant or Crown grants has or have yet been issued to the said Natives for any such piece of land as is in the said indorsement mentioned. 12. That the defendant Gerald O'Halloran is an officer in the employment and pay of the General Government of New Zealand under the said James Mackav. 13. That the defendant John Eichard "William Guilding is also in the employment and pay of the said General Government, and is also under the orders of the said James Mackay. 14. That since the commencement of this year gold fields of very extensive value have been discovered in the said Tairua block, and the said Native defendants have, since the said commencement of this year, agreed with the said John Eichard "William Guilding to select the said one thousand acres near to it, if not absolutely upon the spot where the said gold fields have been so discovered as aforesaid. 15. That the said John "William Eichard Guilding, while acting as a servant of the General Government of New Zealand, to wit, in or about the month of April last past, applied to the said Native defendants to make to him, and to the defendant Gerald O'Halloran, for their own private use, profit, and benefit, a lease of the said one thousand acres, then about to be selected and surveyed, for a term of twenty-one years from that time, at a rental of two hundred pounds per annum ; and used, in order to accomplish his purpose, the knowledge which he had acquired in such service as aforesaid, and obtained the signatures of the Baid Native defendants to an agreement for the same; no other licensed interpreter but himself being present at the time.

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16. That at the time aforesaid, when the said John William Richard Guilding requested the Native defendants to make the said lease to him, John William Richard Guilding, and Gerald O'Halloran, the said John William Richard Guilding also agreed with the said Native defendants that the said one thousand acres should at once be surveyed, and application made for a Crown grant of the same to the Governor of New Zealand, in order that the said Native defendants might lease the same to the said John William Richard Guilding and Gerald O'Halloran. 17. That the said one thousand acres was, as the plaintiff believes, immediately thereafter surveyed according to and in pursuance of the said agreement so made between the said John William Richard Guilding and the said Native defendants, and a plan thereof made, which plan, however, the plaintiff has not seen ; but was so selected and surveyed in a place quite and altogether different from that formerly chosen by the said Native defendants, as the plaintiff is informed and believes. And that the said plaintiff has never yet been informed regarding the exact position of the said one thousand acres, and that the knowledge of the said site is still withheld from the plaintiff and, as he believes, from the General Government of New Zealand, while the said defendants John William Richard Guilding and Gerald O'Halloran are dealing with the said Native defendants in relation to the said land. 18. That the said land now selected as the said one thousand acres is of very great public value, as all the defendants well know; and was so selected and surveyed, as the plaintiff believes, in fraud of the plaintiff", as such Superintendent. 19. That the plaintiff fears and believes that, unless restrained by the injunction of this Honorable Court, the said Native defendants, or the said John William Richard Guilding, Gerald O'Halloran, and James Mackay, will apply to the Governor of New Zealand for the issue of a Crown grant for the said one thousand acres of land. 20. That the plaintiff, as Superintendent of the Province of Auckland, and the province itself, may be and he believes will be seriously injured if the said defendants or any of them are not restrained from applying for or receiving a Crown grant of the said one thousand acres so latterly selected and surveyed as aforesaid, or if the said Native defendants are not restrained from dealing in any way with the said one thousand acres last aforesaid. 21. That the plaintiff believes that the agreement between the said Native defendants and John William Richard Guilding was made by and with the knowledge of the defendant Gerald O'Halloran. 22. That the plaintiff is anxious and willing to ascertain the exact rights of the Native defendants in the premises, and to act in accordance with the rights so to be ascertained. 23. That neither the General Government of New Zealand nor the Provincial Government of the Province of Auckland has agreed, as the defendants James Mackay, Gerald O'Halloran, and John William Richard Guilding well know, to the issue of a Crown grant to the Native defendants of the aforesaid one thousand acres of land. 24. That the defendant James Mackay had no power to bind the Government to issue a Crown grant or Crown grants for the said one thousand acres of land, nor to make any contract for the same, nor is the Government of New Zealand bound by the said indorsement of the said James Mackay. 25. That the plaintiff, as Superintendent of the Province of Auckland, is now making inquiries in order to ascertain what, if anything, in equity and good conscience the said Native defendants ought to receive from the Government; and if the Native defendants be allowed to complete any lease or demise to the defendants John William Richard Guilding and Gerald O'Halloran, or to any other person, or if the said John William Richard Guilding and Gerald O'Halloran are permitted to obtain such a lease of the said one thousand acres or any part thereof before the said inquiries are completed, it will seriously injure and embarrass the plaintiff, as such Superintendent, in the performance of his public duties as such Superintendent in relation to the Province of Auckland and to the said land. 26. That the plaintiff believes that, unless restrained by the injunction of this Honorable Court, the said Native defendants, acting under the advice of the said John William Richard Guilding, will sign and execute the said intended lease, and will thereupon proceed to exercise ownership and authority over the said block of one thousand acres, to the plaintiff's great loss and detriment. 27. That the said one thousand acres so selected recently by the Native defendants as aforesaid is the only place upon the said Tairau block upon which a township for public convenience can be placed and laid out, as the defendants well know. 28. That the plaintiff believes that the defendants are able to give full and complete evidence of the whole of the transactions between them or any of them in relation to the said alleged reserve of one thousand acres, and of all the subsequent transactions in relation therewith, which will enable this Honorable Court to deal justly with the same in relation to all the public and private interests thereto relating, and to determine the rights and equities of all the parties thereto. Wherefore the plaintiff prays, — 1. That the defendants may be restrained by the order and injunction of this Honorable Court from dealing in any way with the said one thousand acres of land so surveyed as aforesaid, in the way of leases, agreements, or otherwise in any way whatever till the further order of this Honorable Court. 2. That the defendants each and all of them may be restrained by the injunction of this Honorable Court from applying to the Governor of New Zealand for a Crown grant of the said one thousand acres of land so surveyed as aforesaid, or from receiving any grant from the Crown for the same until the further order of this Honorable Court. 3. That the defendants may be ordered by this Honorable Court to disclose all documents in their possession or control, or the possession or control of any of them, in relation to the premises; and that they and each of them may be ordered to state all the facts within their or each of their knowledge respectively in relation to the agreement, if any, of the reservation of the said one thousand acres, in relation to the site of the same, in relation to the survey of the same and the plan thereof, in relation to the alleged agreement between the said John William Richard Guilding and the said Native defendants or any of them, or in relation to any application or applications made by the

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defendants or any of them, or by any person on their behalf, to the Governor of New Zealand, or the General Government of New Zealand, or any person or persons whomsoever, in relation to the obtaining a Crown Grant for the said one thousand acres. 4. That the defendants may be ordered to pay the costs of this suit. 5. That the plaintiff may have such further and other relief in the premises as to this Honorable Court may seem meet. (Indorsement on back.) In the Supremo Court of New Zealand, Northern District.—Sir G. Grey, Superintendent of the Province of Auckland, plaintiff. —Pukukauri and others, defendants.—Writ of summons. [Handed in by Sir G. Grey.] Memorandum re Reserve of 1,000 Acres, Tairua Slock. 1. Legal title to block vested in Natives on the 29th November, 1872; Crown-granted to them on the 10th June, 1874. 2. Conveyed by Natives to the Queen on the 7th December, 1872, without any reservation (save right to timber) expressed in the body of the deed. 3. Proclaimed on the 24th June, 1874, waste lands of the Crown; subject to be dealt with according to the provisions of the land laws for the time being in force in the Province of Auckland. No reservation of any kind whatever contained in the Proclamation. 4. Official intimation of a reserve of 1,000 acres having been made in favour of Natives, first received on the 27th July, 1874, and conveyed by Mr. Mackay, as follows, in an enclosure to a letter dated 25th July, 1874, copy of which is attached:— " Mehobandtjm:.—There is a Native reserve of 1,000 acres at Tairua not yet denned on the ground. " 25th July, 1874." " James Mackay, jun. 5. Position of reserve, as pointed out on the official plan of the locality, by Mr. Mackay to Mr. "Waters, of the "Waste Lands Office, about the month of April last, is shown thus x on tracing attached. 6. Alleged position of reserve shown on same tracing, and marked thus [lIIIIIII]. 7. No official communication as to actual position of reserve has yet been received. 8. Conveyance from Natives to the Queen registered on the 15th July, 1874. 9. Tairua block proclaimed within the limits of the Hauraki Gold Mining District on the Bth April, 1875. In this Proclamation the reserve of 1,000 acres is accepted, but without description of boundaries. 10. On the 14th April, 1875, the surveyor appointed by the Provincial Government to classify the lands in this block reported the desirability of reserving a portion of the land above referred to (vide No. 6) as a site for a township. 11. On the 15th May, 1875, the Government first became aware, from rumour, that this site was about to be surveyed on behalf of the Natives. 12. On the 2nd July, 1875, the Government first learnt that the Natives had contracted with certain Europeans (said to be Messrs Guilding and O'Halloran) for the lease of this reserve. Bth July, 1875. Sic,— Auckland, 25th July, 1874. Referring to a recent Proclamation, to the effect that the Omahu, "Whangamata, Hikutaia, Tairua, Karo, Opango, Hotoritori, and Hihi and Piraunui blocks are waste lands of the Crown, I have the honor to inform you that the kauri timber on the four first-named belongs to Messrs. Preece and Graham, who own the Tairua Saw-mill. I enclose a tracing showing the position of the lands held by them under timber lease. The Opango, Hotoritori, and Hihi Piraunui blocks are in a similar position ; the Shortland Sawmill Company (Messrs. Russell, Stone, Wilson, and Heron) having valid leases of the timber growing on the same. The reason I wish to draw your attention to the leases of the kauri timber is to prevent any complication arising by the inadvertent issue of timber licenses to other persons under Waste Lands Regulations of the province. As there are other blocks acquired, or in the course of acquisition, for the Government in the Coromandel or Hauraki Peninsula, over which similar private rights exist at the present time, I would beg to draw your attention to my report to the Hon. Mr. Ormond, late Minister for Public Works, which is published in Vol. 111. of the Appendix to the Journals of the House of Representatives, 1873, G. 8, which contains a detailed statement of all blocks subject to leases or agreements for timber. I have, &c, James Mackay, jun., The Commissioner of Crown Lands, Auckland. Land Purchase Agent. Memorandum on Enclosure (a Tracing). " There is a Native reserve of 1,000 acres at Tairua not yet defined on the ground. " 25th July, 1874." « James Mackay, jun. Memoeaudttm.—The tracing annexed indicates position of reserve of 1,000 acres, Tairua block, pointed out to me on the official plan, by Mr. Mackay, in the Waste Lands Office, a few months ago.* Waste Lands Office, Auckland, sth July, 1875. Thomas J. Watees. * About the month of April.—T. J. Watees.

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Memorandum illustrating nature of dealings which have taken place in reference to the following Purchases effected under "The Immigration and Public "Works Act, 1870." 1. Hihi and Piraunui Block, 6,775 Acres. Conveyed by Natives to the Queen, on the 21st December, 1872, for the sum of £700. Registered 21st July, 1874. Lease of timber and incidental rights for ninety-nine years to T. Russell, W. C. "Wilson, and Captain J. Stone, 20th December, 1872, for the sum of £200, and a rental of ss. per annum. Eegistered 29th July, 1874. 2. Opango Block, 1,000 Acres. Conveyed by Natives to the Queen, on the 24th August, 1872, for the sum of £103. Eegistered 27th July, 1874. Lease of timber and incidental rights for ninety-nine years to T. Eussell, "W. C. Wilson, and Captain J. Stone, 24th August, 1872, for the sum of £100, and a rental of ss. per annum. Eegistered 28th July, 1874. The conveyance of this block bears an indorsement, as follows: — This is to certify, that the land described in the within-written conveyance to Her Majesty the Queen was purchased by me for the Colonial Government, under authority from them; that a long time previously to receiving my instructions from the Government, I had made arrangements with the Native owners for the purchase of the forest trees and incidental rights, for Messrs. Thomas Eussell, William Chisholm Wilson, and Captain James Stone, and had paid large sums of money thereon; that I agreed to act for the Government in acquiring the fee simple only, on condition that all my said arrangements for the forest were respected by the Government; that accordingly, prior to my negotiations for the purchase of the said freehold land, the forest and all necessary incidental rights thereto were purchased by me (with the consent of the Government) from the Native owners for the said Thomas Russell, William Chisholm Wilson, and Captain James Stone, and were conveyed to them by deed, dated the 24th August, 1872 ; that subsequently I purchased the said freehold for the Government, subject to the rights acquired, or intended to be acquired, by the said Thomas Eussell, William Chisholm Wilson, and Captain James Stone; and that the Native owners of the said land did sell the said land to the Government on condition that the right of the said -Thomas Eussell, William Chisholm Wilson, and Captain James Stone to the said forest should be recognized and upheld by the Government. Dated the 12th day of December, 1872. James Mackay, jun. 3. Hotoritori, 523 Acres. Conveyed by Natives to the Queen, on the 24th August, 1872, for the sum of £100. Eegistered 27th July, 1874. The conveyance of this block also bears an indorsement in terms similar to that already noted in the case of the Opango. Against this block (Hotoritori) there is lodged a caveat, copy of which is hereto attached. These blocks (Hihi and Piraunui, Opango and Hotoritori) were transferred to provincial administration by Proclamation, dated 24th June, 1874. The Act was passed on the 31st August, 1874. This Proclamation was subsequently revoked on the sth September, 1874. Caveat forbiding Registration of dealing with Estate or Interest. To the District La>*d Eegisteae of the District of Auckland. Take notice, that we, Thomas Eussell, Captain James Stone, and William Chisholm Wilson, of Auckland, gentlemen, claiming estate or interest as owners of all kauri and other trees and bush on the lands hereinafter mentioned, and as lessees of the said lands for the term of ninety-nine years, under and by virtue of certain deeds of grant and demise, particulars of which are as follows: — 1. Deed of grant and demise from Matiaha and others to the said Thomas Eussell, Captain James Stone, and William Chisholm Wilson. Dated 23rd August, 1872. 2. Grant and demise to the said parties from Te Pukeroa and others. Dated 7th September, 1872. 3. Grant and demise to the said parties from Kerei and others. Dated 24th August, 1872. 4. Grant and demise to the said parties from Tautoru and others. Dated sth September, 1872. —in all those parcels of land, being the Native blocks called or known as Waiwhakaurunga Manginahae, Hotoritori, and Mangarehu, respectively, situate in the District of Hauraki, Banks County, in the Province of Auckland, forbid the registration of any memorandum or transfer or other instrument affecting the said land until this caveat be by the said Thomas Eussell, Captain James Stone, and William Chisholm Wilson withdrawn. Dated this 28th day of July, 1874. Whitakee and Eussell, Solicitors for the above-named Thomas Eussell, Captain James Stone, and William Chisholm Wilson, Wyndham Street, Auckland. Witness—Joseph Newman, J.P., a Justice of the Peace for the Colony of New Zealand. We consent to the registration of Transfer No. 411, dated Bth October, 1874, from Henare Whakarongahau and others to Her Majesty the Queen, notwithstanding this caveat. 22nd April, 1875. Whitakee and Eussell. By Authority: Geobge Dldsbbbt, Government Printer, Wellington.—lB7s. Price 2s. 6d.