HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Timaru Herald, Volume XLII, Issue 3378, 25 July 1885, Page 3

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Tho House met at 2.3 1 ) p.m. BErLIES TO QUESTIONS. Replying to Mr G. F. Richardson, if the Government will make a substantial rcduc- | lion on tho railway tariff charges for short distances from chief centres, to induce the carriage of heavy goods by rail, the Hon. Mr Richardson said the Government had already considered the matter, and it had been found impossible for the railwny in short distances to compete with tho road. Replying to Mr Vincent Pyko, whether the well known Harry Meiggs of Californian, Mexican and Peruvian notoriety is in any way connected with tho firm of Messrs Meiggs and Sons referred to in the Hon. the Treasurer's East and West Coast Railway state. | ment as " a well known firm of railway contractors and financiers," and if the Government is not in possession of such information whether they will mnke tho necessary enquiries, the Hon. Sir Julius Togel snid lie had no personal knowledge of the firm. It was quite true the Meiggs referred to had been unfortunate in oarly life, but he afterwards made a large fortune and foundeJ the celebrated firm of Meiggs und Co. From tho enquiries be had made in Wellington during the last few days ho hnd elicited the information that the statements made in reference to Meiggs, who he understood was now deceased, had no foundation. Replying to Mr Turnbull, who asked if Government will place a sum on the Supplementary Estimates for alterations to tho Timaru Courthouse, as suggested in u report furnished them, the Hon. Mr Tole said ho bad ueked for a further report on this matter, and would state the decision he arrived at when it was received. Replying to Mr Moat, whether taking into consideration the great number of wrecks which continue to occur at Kaipara Heads, the Government will not now take slops to connect the pilot station nt that placo with Te Kopura by telephone, the Hon. Sir Julius Vogel said from enquiries he had made lie found that a tug wns more required. He would make further enquiry on the matter. Replying to Mr Hakueno who asked Government whether they have taken stops to carry out the promiso made last session that the graves of soldiers at Ohawai and Auapekapeka would be fenced, etc., tho Hon. Mr Ballancc said steps had been taken to effect this object. NEW DILLS. The following Bills wero introduced : — The Goldmining District Act 1873 Amendment Bill (Hon. Mr La-nacli), the Shipping and Seaman's Act 1877 Amendment Bill (Hon. Mr Larnach), the Middle Island Hnlfcastos Grant Bill (Hon. Mr Ballance), the Rating Act Amendment (No. 2) Bill (Hon. Mr Tole), A Bill fo Provide for the limitation of votes atnny election of members for tho House of Representatives (Sir George Grey), the Pawnbrokers' Act 1868 Amendment Dill (Mr Stewart). MOTIONS. The Hon. Mr Stout, moved that Government business have prccedenco on Wednesdays for tho remainder of the session. — Agreed to. Tho Hon. Mr Stout moved thnt. the House at its rising do adjourn until Monday at halfpast 7 p.m. for consideration of private business. — Agreed to. The Hon. Mr Stout, moved that a Select Committee bo appointed to consider a petition from the settlers and colonists of Fiji, and tho general position of tho Western Pacific Islands in their relation to New Zealand, such Committee to consist of Major Atkinson, Messrs Fitzherbert and Garrack, Sir Georgo Grey, Messrs Levestam, Macandrow, Moss, Ormond, Major Steward, and tho Hon. Sir Julius Vogel, three to form tv quorum, and to report in three weeks. The Hon. Mr Stout said ho was strongly of opinion Hint a better union between tlio colony, and those islandß than they at presont possessed should bo established, but ho would not entor further into tho question nt present. — Agreed to. IN committee. Tlio Houso then wont into Committee of Supply, and an Impress Supply Bill for £300,000 was passed through all its stages. Major Atkinson asked nt what rato tlio public works cxpondituro wns now going on, nnd what was tlio oxpendituro por month for the current year. Tho Hon. Sir Julius Vogel said if Iho lion, gontleman gave notico for a return, ho would havo one prepared, giving the information asked for. Major Atkinson said ho would movo for a return. TIIK SAN FRANCISCO MAIL SBRVICK. The Hon. Sir Julius Vogel moved—" That tho House go into Committee to consider tlie following resolution : — ' That Government bo authorised to negotiate for a fresh mail snrvico between Auckland and San Francisco, for five years, at a cost not exceeding £30,000 per annum.' " Tho Hon. Sir Julius Vogol aaid he understood thai sumo opposition had been raised lo thn motion by the Chambers of Commorco at Wellington and Napier, but ho thought there was little occasion for opposition to tho sorvico, as it. had been a remarkable success in many ways, and had almost an educational effect upon tho peoplo of tho colony by bringing many people to its shoros and by introducing much sciontifio knowlodgo into it. Ho considered that compared to tho otlior usefulness of the sorvico the cost was a mero bagatelle. He could not help roferring to tho prosperous condition of Auckland in connection with this servico, as it was destined to become a most important district. Ho thought, some consideration should ba bliowu to thu fact that tho mail sorvico was infinitely moro useful to Auckland and Tnranaki than nny other service could ho. Ho said tho aTerago passage made by thoso stenmorß from Auckland to London was 36 days 20 hours, whilo tho average of tho direct steamers from the colony lo Plymouth wns 39 days 6 hours. Ho thought, therefore, that this matter desorved some consideration. Ho did not desiro to dispr.rago i tho direct Bervico, which ho looked upon as of immenso value, but he thought the proposal to run a fortnightly servico in conjunction with tlio direct sorvieo was of moro importance to tho colony. He contended tho San

Francisco service was really what they wanted, and it would in his opinion be a great pity to throw up a service that worked so well. But, a few words with regard to our position. Wo were now paying £31,255 per year, and New South Wales contributed £7000 a year. He contended that owing to the agreement, and the fact that they wero to receive the postages from New South Wales tbat tho service was really costing the colony nothing, but rather that a profit was made out of it. Ho lind no fuith in tho idea of getting a subsidy from the United States. This question had come up session after session. He thought they would not consent to give a fixed subsidy. It was not certain that tho service would be carried on by tho American steamers much longer, but he was sure there would be a number of other tenders available. He hoped tho motion would be agreed to, as it would be a great injustice to Auckland, especially if it were discontinued. If, unhappily, war should break out this alternative mail service would also be of immense benefit to the whole colony. He thought they would bo taking a retrograde step in abandoning such an efficient service as it had proved, and he hoped the House would pass the resolution. Mr Lovestam moved as an ainondment " That tho whole question of the mail service be referred to a select committee to report on in a week." The Chairmnn ruled that tho amendment wns of such a nature as could not be proposed in committee. Mr Sutter moved a further amendment, of which he had given notice. He thought Auckland had no right to such a largo sum for her benefit alone, and contended that the mail service wns of no other use to the colony. He pointed out that the United States Government, was bound to carry a mail to Honolulu, and there would be no difficulty in makirg arrangements with that country. He then moved the following amendment that the figures "£30,000" be struck out, with tho view of inserting tho following scalo of remuneration, viz : " The Postmaster-General will pay tho contracting party at tho following rates — Letters, 12s per lb ; packets, Is per lb ; newspapers, 6d per lb." Mr Levestam then moved to report proMr Holmes contended that tho member for Nelson's proposal should have been accepted by the Hon. the Treasurer, and that a Select Committee was the proper body to consider the whole question. Ho should support, tho motion to report progress. Mr Mncandrew considered that £30.003 was too much for the service. He said when the service was initiated, it was not for merely carrying the mails, but for cpening up trade with America. Ho thought this result had not been obtained, and that New South Wales had reaped nil the advantage from it. They should all cultivate the direct service, and the mere fact of one or two days difference in the routes wns of minor importance compared with the benefit of Ihe direct service. He hoped the Government would ngree to report progress so that the whole subject might be considered by a Committee. He would be eorry to eoe the service abandoned altogether, but it wns the cost he objected to ; which, in hie opinion, was fur too heavy. Major Atkinson hoped that progress would not be reported. He submitted that the Houso was in full possession of all information tbat was desired on the subject, and tbat a committee wns not at all necessary. He said it could not bc gainsaid that tho £30,000 would bo more than recouped to the colony by postages if the proposal of tho Hon. the I'ostmuster-General wns carried out. The whole of tho proposal was to mnko New Zealand the terminus, and to make not a loss but a profit. He thought it would bo wise on all grounds to accede to the proposals of Government, and be hoped progress would not be reported. Mr Moss :'enied thai any arrangements had been made with the Auckland members in connection with this service. As an Auckland man, lie wns of course strongly in favor of the proposal, but he thought it would also beneGt the whole colony. Mr Downie Stewart looked upon tho question purely as one of economy and retrenchment. He thought in our present circumstances economy was imperatively necessary. They had a direct service with England at present of which any country should bc proud, and the tendency every month would be for commercial men and' others to avail themselves of Hub service. The result would be a very appreciable diminution in the revenue from tho San Francisco service. He did not say they should absolutely abandon the service if they could get it for a modest sum, but £30,000 was altogether beyond what they should bo culled upon to contribute. Ho could not support the resolution in its present form. Mr Hurst strongly supported the resolution. He altogether deprecated the idea that Auckland members were induced to support the motion through any understanding with Government. Ho saw no reason why Government should have power to sever the service, as it would bo of immense benefit to the whole colony. He hoped the Committee would not report progress, but would take a decision on the mat ter. The Hon. Mr Stout said (he first point to consider was thnt our mail matter would have to be carried, and if it were not carried via t-'nn Francisco it would have to he by direct steamer.*. He thought it could not bc expected that a larpo part of the North Island would consent to be left out of nny fresh mnil arrangements. He believed the tourist traffic caused by the San Francieco mail service would bo of immenso benefit to New Zealand, and if this service were abolished there would be no real gain to the colony, as tho cost of the direct servico would ho much more than at present. He hoped thn House would not look at tho matter from a local point of view, but would consider it as affecting tlio colony at large, and agreo to Ihe resolution. Mr Hurvthouso considered the mail service, from n passenger point of view, hnd not been altogether a success or of lasting benefit to tho colony. Ho also thought that ns a commercial service it. hnd been an absolute failure, while tho direct service had been eminently successful. The debate was interrupted by tho 5.30 adjournment. Business was resumed at 7.30. The Hon. the Premier said ho would consent to report progress on the mail scrvico resolution, in order to enable his colleague, tho Hon. the Minister for Mines, to doliver his mines ettttement. MINES ACT. Tho Hon. Mr Larnach then moved tho eecond reading of the Mines Act Amendmont Bill, and in doing so miulo his Mines Statoment. TIIU MAIL SERVICE. Mr Pyko then resumed tho debate on the San Francisco mail service It was not cosily, ho said, and wns of great benefit to tho colony, but he thought tho amount of subsidy would bo bettor spent in encouraging tho frozou meat trade. He moved as an amendment to ndd to Iho resolution, "provided that tho United Stales Government contribute, ono-lhird of tho cost of tho service, viz., £10,000." Sir George Grey pointed out that the loss to the colony by the mail servico last year was only £3000, and if it continued for another year tho losa would not be £1000, as it would decrease every yeur. He also contended that the return on tho mail postage would make tho sorvice a profit instead of a loss. Ho said it wns well known thai many places had sprung into considerablo wealth by tho number of tourists who visitod them. At tho presont timo a large number of tourists visited this country, and ho contended that tho visits of those peoplo not only benefited the colony in a monetary way, but also added to the population. Ho wan perfectly satisfied that the arguments ho had heard on tho question were the result of sound judgment, and that members approached the subject from a colonial point of view. The San Francisco service, ho contended, brought all the civilised nations of the world into contact, and there could be no bettor routo for n traveller who wished to tako it. ll seemed to him incredible that for tho sako of tlio trilling saving that would bo effected, tho Houso would reject tho proposal. If war took plueo ho hoped' the colonies would tako up tho norvico themselves. Ho thought it was impossible to over-estimato tlio udvnntngeß to Australia and Now Zealand of a service of this kind. Ho asked Hie ilmise whether it was worth while- tor so trilling a Having to abandon euch a successful service which

was of such great benefit to the whole of New Zealand. Mr Peacock said the question was one ■which could bo advocated on broad general grounds and in the interests of the colony as a whole. He contended that it was not a question of economy at all, as our letters must come by some route, and would have to bo paid for whichever way they came. It should not be forgotten that, while the direct steamers conferred a great benefit on the colony, they wero being run at present at the utmost speed, and could not be continued at that speed. The San Francisco service could be improved indefinitely by getting faster steamers and by improved means of rail. Ho thought before long a 30 days' service would be obtained. He said if the £30,000 subsidy wore reduced, either the service would be done away with or the Government would be crippled in making arrangements for a fresh service. He contended that any subsidy they might look for from the American Government should be in addition to the £30,000, so that he considered the member for Dun stan's object would be defeated br the amendment lie had brought forward. As to the proposal to refer the matter to a committee, he thought there was no information available which was not already in their possession, and he considered this would be a means of shelving the question. Mr Holmes said it was quite refreshing to find fir Geo. Q-roy and Sir Julius Vogel in accord on any question. Ho said they were asked to vote £30,000 to bring to New Zealand a few " globe trotters," but be thought the expense was not warranted. He quoted from remarks made at the Wellington Chamber of Commerce by Mr Duthie, who said the San Francisco service was of no commercial benefit whatever. He said he was one of those who had voted previously for the service, but he contended that tho facts shown on that occasion were gross misrepresentations. He thought, if they gave a subsidy of £30,000 to this service, that in a few years that service would not be ablo to take half their letters, and it would cost a much larger amount. He supported the motion for referring the matter to a Committee for several reasons. He did not beliovo there was one single member of the House who desired to terminate the service, but they wished it to He carried on at less cost, and they also wished New South Wales to bo brought in 100. He thought it was a wise and prudent tiling to do to refer the matter to a Select Committee. Mr Turnbull thought it would also be belter to refer the question to a Committee. He objected to the statements constantly made that the San Francisco service cost £30,000, whereas in reality it only cost £301)0. He was sorry tho question was not going to he considered on its merits. It was evidently looked at from a provincial standpoint. Ho would vote for the resolution when it came before the House, but in the meantime would support the amendment to refer it to a Committee. Tho Hon. Sir Julius Vogel said if the amendment of the Member for Gladstone were curried, the colony would have made£34,ooo last year, but if the number of letters increased they would lose. He strongly advised tho lion gentleman to withdraw Mb amendment as the service expired in November next. He should be glad to be in position to call for tenders for the eervice, and tolny them before hon. members previous to Parliament being prorogued. It seemed to him sound policy to keep up the two services, although there was no doubt that the direct service was of more benefit as a commercial service. He hoped the two amendments would be withdrawn. Mr Sutter said the mail by San Francisco was being greatly reduced, and it would cost the colony enormous sums before fivo years were over. He refused to sanction the subsidy again. Mr OVallaghan said if they paid £30,000 for this subsidy, and their business was decreasing, it followed that they would have to pay a large amount at the end of five years for this small San Francisco mail service. Mr Buchanan thought it would be better to pay to the direct service whatever sum they had to contribute towards an extra service. He contended that the population had been largely increased by the direct service. The average amount of cargo by the San Francisco boats was only 100 tons, whilst the average by the direct steamers win about forty times that amount. Mr Russell said reference had been made to Chambers of Commerce, and he fully realised that the gentlemen composing the Chambers of Commerce were possessed of eenso and intelligence, but the House was, so to speak, a large Chamber of Commerce. Ho supported the resolutions, sind thought that if a war broke out it would bo of infinite advantngo to the colony to have tho 9an Francisco service. He considered if that service were to be renewed they should stipulate for a 35 days service, which was by no means an impossibility. Mr Fisher said tho number of letters by the San Frnncisco service would gradually diminish, but the contribution of £30,00b would remain the same for five years. He considered tho reason why that service was not placed on a commercial footing was because that as a commercial service it was a dead failure. He agreed with both amendments. Mr Guinness said he should support the motion for reporting progress, not because lie was against the resolution, as ho was strongly in favor of it. Ho thought, however, that a Select Committee was necessary to decido the terms and conditions of tho Bcrvice. He said it would bo more advisable for tho steamers to touch at some of tho Fiji Islands instead of at Honolulu, no considered tho balance of the arguments used was that it was absolutely necessary the service should be maintained. Mr Montgomery said if tho colony could afford it they should have both services. He was prepared, for one, to vote for the payment of something out of the consolidated revenuo, as he considered it would bo n misfortune for the colony if the San Francisco sorvico were abandoned. If that scrvico were discontinued they would bo at tho mercy of those who at present carried on the direct eervice. He did not think they should have a service for fivo years, as at tho end of three years they could get greater speed for a less amount than was at present paid. He would be quite willing to volo £26,000 a year for three years, which ho thought would meet all requirements. Dr Newman was one of those who considered tho colony was paying too much for the service. Ho suggested that the price paid should bo £20,000 per annum for three years. Mr Hatch said ho would support cither o£ tho amendments proposed. Mrßectham would voto against tho motion to report progress. Ho thought it would bo better for the Houso to voto a certain sum than to bind tho Hon. the Treasurer to any amount. Mr Barron said he should bo glad to support the Hon. tho Trcasuror in maintaining tho service, but he should also liko Amorica and Now South Wales to contribute. He thought tho San Francisco service should bo continued so as to provont a monopoly by tho direct service. Ho would liko to son tho amount reduced, but considered it would bo unwise in the House to alter it. Tho motion for reporting progress was then put and lost on u division by 53 to 16. Mr Montgomery moved that " thrco yours " be substituted for "fivo vcars." Tho Hon. Sir Julius Vogel said ho should accopt this if Mr Sutter withdraw his amendment. Tho amendment for three years was then carried on tho voices. Mr Montgomery said as ho understood tho Govornmoiit would udvertiso for lenders, he should not move for a reduction to £25,000. Mr Smith contended that if th« San Francisco eervieo woro discontinued the direct sorvico would again go back to the 45 days, to which thoy wero bound by law. He thought it was ii most important thing for every part of the colony Unit they should hnvu two services. He would support tho resolution. Mr Kerr intended to support tho it-solu-tion, as ho should bo sorry to see tho San Francisco sorvico discontinued. Mr Sutler's amendment was then put and lost by 43 to 31. The following is the division list : — Ayes, 43 — Atkinson, Ballsnco, Barron, Bectham, Bcvnn, Bruco, Cadtnan, Dargn.villo, Frascr, Grey, Hakucoe, Harper, Hirst, Hobbs, Hurst, Joyce, Korr, Luke, Lance, Lnrnm-h, Lfvnst.im, Loiike, McKmizic, Mitchclson, Moat, Montgomery, Mus*,

O'Borke, Peacock, Pratt, E. Richardson. Russell, Samuel, Seddon, Smith, Stout, Thompson, Tole, Turnbull, Vogel, Walker, Whyte, Wilson. Noes 31 — AUwright, Bradslmw, Buchanan, J. C. Buckland, Conolly, Cowan, Duncan, Fergus, Fisher, Fulton, Gore, Guinness, Hatch, Hislop, Hursthouse, Ivess, Johnston, Mackenzie, Menteath, Newman, O'Callaghan, Pearson, Pyke, G. F. Kichardson, Rolleston, Ross, Stewart, Sutter, Thomson, Trimble, White. Mr Pyko's amendment to add to the resolution "conditionally on the United States of America contributing one-third (£10,000) of the cost," was then put and lost on a division by 50 to 24. Mr Richardson (of Mataura) moved as an amendment "that Government should call for public tenders." Mr Holmes recorded his protest against the action of the Government in the matter. He said that they liad now placed a service which was generally regarded as useless on a pedestal above the direct service, which was looked up to as a means of lifting the colony from (lie low condition in which it was at present. The. Hon. Sir Julius Vogel hoped the amendment would not be carried. He said Government had not said a word against the direct service, except that it was not equal to the San Francisco service. Mr Richardson's amendment was lort on the voices. Mr Seddou moved a further amendment — "That before any arrangement, is made anapplication be made to the United States Government to ascertain whether they will contribute to the cost." The Hon. Sir Julius Vogel hoped the amendment would not bo pressed. He said for the last seven years applications had been constantly made 'to the United States Government on the matter, but without effect.. He felt sure that that Government would never contribute anything to English steamers. llr Seddon withdrew his amendment. Tho resolution as amended was Ihrn reported to the House, and was ordered to be considered on Friday next. The Houso rose at 1 a.m.