POSTAL CHARGES.

Sun (Christchurch), Volume VII, Issue 2028, 14 August 1920, Page 9

POSTAL CHARGES.

INCREASES ENDORSED. INTERESTING DEBATE IN THE HOUSE. LABOUR AMENDMENT FAILS. TFrom Our Own Parliamentary Reporter.) WELLINGTON, August 13. By a vote of 54 to six—the six representing Official Labour —the House of Representatives to-day approved the action of the Government in increasing the charges upon the public to meet the increased cost of administering the Post and Telegraph Department. An interesting discussion on this and kindred subjects took place when the departmental estimates were being considered in Committee of Supply. Reduction Proposed. When the vote of £3825 for the Administrative Division was before the Committee, Mr H. E. Holland (Buller) moved a reduction of the vote by £l, as an indication that the Government, in increasing the charges, was going the wrong way about meeting the increased cost of running the department. He declared that there was a general feeling that, with the passing of War conditions, the Dominion should have gone back to the pre-War schedule of eharges, including penny postage. The Prime Minister (Rt. Hon. W. F. Massey) asked if the amendment did not concern a matter of policy, which would put it out of order. Mr A. 8. Malcolm (Chairman of Committees) ruled that it dealt with only administrative policy, and so was quite permissible. v Reason for Increases. Mr Massey said all must understand perfectly the reason for the increased charges. It had become necessary to increase wages and salaries, at any rate for the time being.- The question which the Government hod, then, to consider, was whether the -additional expense—amounting in all departments to about £l,7so,ooo—should fall upon the Consolidated Fund, or should be met out of the revenue of the departments concerned. Really, there was no alternative to increasing charges, since there would not be sufficient money in the Consolidated Fund without increasing taxation. The opinion of the Government—and the opinion, he felt, right through the House and right through the country—was that they should increase the charges of the departments concerned. He could not understand the amendment, except as an attempt to make political capital. So far as he was able to judge, the increases were settling down and going quite smoothly. Ho asked hon. members to show by their votes that they took up a fair and definite position in this xery difficult question.

Mr Holland argued that nobody objected to the increases to employees —what they did object to was the method employed to meet those increases. The additional taxation should have been levied on the largo estates, and the holders of the big incomes, instead of on all who used the postal service. The protest was against the method of putting an increase of taxation on to the general body of the people—an increase which would hit the workers harder than other citizens. An "Absurd Contention."

Mr L. M. Isitt (Christchurch North) said that the lion, -member's amendment was quite characteristic. There had never been a more absnrd contention than that the weight was falling upon the workers. It would fall heaviest upon the commercial community.

An hon. member: And they will pass it on! Replying to Mr C. E. Statham (Dunedin Ceutral), Mr Massey said that the increases would still return a revenue of £40,000 per annum short of the additional amount required to carry on the department. Mr J. McC'ombs (Lyttelton) contended that? the business community would pass on the whole of the increased charges falling upon it. Mr Isitt: That's quite incorrect! Mr McCombs said that they had no right to assume that the postal revenue for the current year would not exceed last year's, for the return was steadily rising. This was a deliberate addition to indirect taxation and to the high cost of living of the mass of the people. There were numbers of unexploited avenues that might have been fairly drawn upon to provide the increased revenue. A "Socialistic Concern." Mr D. Jones (Kaiapoi) expressed surprise at the quarter from which this amendment had come, since the Post and Telegraph Department was a Socialistic institution. The department kept no capital account, so that Capitalism had been abolished there, and the users wero asked to bear the cost of administration. This just showed, when they got right down to hard facts, the absurdity of the position taken up by the Labour members. Mr W. A. Veitch (Wanganui) said that the Post and Telegraph Department was no more a Socialistic institution than was the farm worked so successfully by the hon. member for Kaiapoi. However, he opposed the amendment, fo» the Government had done the only right thing in increasing the charges to meet the increased cost of administering the department. He considered that the amendment was an unfair attempt to make political capital.

Mr Isitt maintained that the business men realised that they had now reached the point, where they could not add further profit. It was absurd to suggest that the small extra expense which this would involve fw the average business firm was going to be passed on to the public. Proceeds of Duty Stamps. Mr R. McCallum (YVairau) said that the only point they had to consider was whether t lie small additional charges would sufficiently increase the revenue of the department to make it self-supporting. l*or many years the department had taken duty stamps, printed by the Government Printing Oflice, sold them, and pocketed the proceeds. That, was wrong, and it had come to the poiut where thpy had to consider if the charges should not be further increased. The value of duty stamps should go to the Minister of Finance.

Mr (i. Mitchell (Wellington South) suggested that, if the increases were passed on to the workers in this case—although lie did Jiiit think that they would be —they would be equally passed on it' placed upon some other source of revenue. Mr \V. I>. Lysnar (Gisborne) said that it was right and just that every depart meiit should be self-supporting.

Mr H. E. Holland (Baiter): This is a national service! Mr Lysnar: Yes! And it should be supported" by those who use it! The Labour Party is looking for chaos in proposing this amendment. Mr P. Fraser .(Wellington Central) said that the issue between his party and the rest of the House was the old question of direct versus indirect taxation. Labour's Objective. The Hon. W. Nosworthy (Minister of Agriculture) stated that he welcomed the amendment, as a. most illuminating indication as to what was behind the mind of the Labour Party. The lion, member for Buller and nis friends did not want to pay any taxation at all, if they could get out of it. They would put the wholo burden on to the shoulders of the people, so leaving themselves free to walk about as agitators. Dr A. K. Newman (Wellington East) said that everybody passed all taxation on to everybody. An hon. member: Then everybody pays! (Laughter.) Dr Newman agreed! that some of the charges should havo been increased. For instance, telegrams had cost 9d to transmit, even when the charge was only 6d. He understood that the Government proposed to start an aerial post office —(laughter)—but he saw nothing about that in the Estimates.

Mr S. G. Smith (Taranaki) wished to see the department produce sufficient revenue for the payment of adequate salaries to its officers. Cost of Increased Salaries. , The Rt. Hon. W. F. Msssey 3aid that, for the eight months of the present financial year still ahead, the estimated increase in salaries was £,'ioo,ooo, and tho estimated increased revenue £260,000. Mr A. McNicol (Pahiatua) pointed out that many of the settlers whom Mr Holland proposed to tax, to provide this extra revenue, had to subsidise the Government before they could get any mail service at all.

I Mr R. Masters (Stratford), speaking as a business man, said that, if there was a, chance of handing on the increased postal charges, he was going to hand them on—and so would every other business firm. But, still, he would support the Government. Mr W. E. Parry (Auckland Central) said that tho principle that every department should pay its own way was not sound. In that case, the Public Health Department and the Education Department should be called upon to pay their own way. ! The Hon. E. P. Lee (Minister of Industries) : Should the postal services be free entirely? Mr Parry: It inay be some day. We are not asking that to-day. A Question of Profit. Mr J. McCombs (Lyttelton) eontended that the Government was asking the department to do much more than pay its own way. In recent years it had shown a profit of about £400,000 per annum. The Hon. C. J. Parr (Minister of Education) explained that if a profit and loss account were kept by the Post Office, the surpluses referred to by the hon. member for Lyttelton would disappear instantly. Thousands of pounds invested in the department paid no interest. To his mind, the question of passing the charge on was entirely irrelevant to the subject before the House. He did not see why a State business should not be required to pay, at least, its wages bill, just as did any private business.

Mr E. J. Howard (Christchurch South): Would you say that of the Education Department? Mr Parr replied that the Education Department was on an entirely different footing. Was.itJ he asked, desirable, to place on the land the whole harden of running State services? Mr Howard: You're right!

Mr McCombs claimed that his party was only asking the continuance of the established custom that the Post and Telegraph Department need not be required to pay its way fully. Mr Massey gave it as his opinion that the Post Office accounts should be kept in such a way that the actual profit and loss position would be shown. Cook Strait Telephone Cable.

Dr A. K. Newman (Wellington East) criticised as useless expenditure the proposal to lay a copper telephone cable across Cook Strait, at an estimated cost of £150,000. / Mr J. Horn (Wakatipu) objected to so much money booing spent in the cities and large towns, when the back country districts were so badly off for postal and telephonic services. Mr Howard maintained that the de bate had proved that there were only two parties in the House. The old Liberal Party had faded right away. Mr B. McCallum (AVairau): What's that got to do with the Estimates? (Laughter.)

Mr Howard: I am trying to estimate the Liberal Party. Mr McCallum: A point of order! What has this got to do with the Estimates? Are not the Estimates entirely non-party? •Mr Howard: I want to show that, a few years ago, that great and glorious .party which brought in penny postage — Mr McCallum: A point of orderl Mr Howard: Well, 1 will say that they called themselves "great and glorious.'"' (Laughter.) Mr McCallum: Mr Malcolm, you mnst stop hint! Mr Malcolm: The hon. member must keep to the subject I

Mr Howard: And I will, it' you protect me from the interruptions of my lion, friend who has been" so long and so uselessly in the House I He 'was, he added, just trying to bring out the fact that, the Liberals, when they had introducd penny postage, argued that the service would bo more widely availed of, and that the revenue cotißequOv.tly would not decrease. They did not seem to think, now, that the use of the service would be restricted by increased charges. The lion. .1. A. Hannu (Invereargill) advised caution in entering upon anv aerial postal scheme. Postmaster-General Replies, The lion. J. G. Contes (Postmaster General) emphasised that wages and salaries were not alone responsible for tho increased cost of administering his department. Mail contracts had all gone up —some to the extent of ,'ioo per cent. No doubt there would be a slight decrease in business, consequent upon the increase in charges, but the suggestion that they should revert to penny postage was devoid of all common sense. AH countries had increased their charges. Australia and Great Britain had tho twopenny letter, while their, telephone charges were higher .than those in New Zealand. With re-

gard to a telephone cable .across Cook Strait, the idea. )ia<l tome «j> before he took office, ami certain arrangements )ia<l been entered into. However, after consideration, it had been decided to go in for a better system than was at first suggested, and the cable was one of the matters that Mr E. A. Shrimpton (Chief Telegraph Engineer) had been sent to (heat Britain and America to investigate. The Government had not committed itself in any way, and all the original negotiations were off. The object was, of course, to afford telephonic communication between North Cape, and Bluff—hut. the cable would not be bought until they considered the price reasonable, and thought that they could carry out the work to advantage. Supplies of material for telephone extension into the backbloejis and elsewhere had been arranged for some years ahead. In the matter of aerial services, certain experiments had been carried out. Speaking for himself, he believed that that would be a splendid way of keeping the Dominion's pilots and air mechanics in touch with flying. Those men must have some flying. Let it be only a minimum, but let it be efficient—and one of the best means of keeping them fresh would be by the adoption of an aerial mail service, which would also, of course, improve the working of the Post and Telegraph Department. Mr Holland claimed that the Post Office could not be separated from the other social services of the State, since it produced nothing, but only distributed.

Mr Isitt said that, of course, where business firms were sending out goods, they would charge the extra postage to the purchaser of the goods, but he dhl not call that passing it on. On a division being taken, the amendment was defeated by 54 votes to six, all the Official Labour members present —and no others—supporting it.