FEDERAL CONVENTION.

New Zealand Herald, Volume XXVIII, Issue 8534, 7 April 1891, Page 5

FEDERAL CONVENTION.

THE CONSTITUTION BILL.

Frets Association.— Telegraph.—

Sydney, April 6. Ax the Federation Convention this morning tho committee resumed the debate on Mr. R. C. Baker's amendment with reference to Appropriation and Tax Bills. Mr. A. J. Thynne deprecated the lino of action adopted by the Victorian delegates, and said he did nob think they expressed the better thought of the Victorian people. If they did then they raised the question whether tho people of Victoria had reached the federal atmosphere requisite before they bocame entitled to enter the Federation. He would not grieve if Victoria did nob join the Federation at present, buo it would not be very long before they found it necessary to apply for admission. He 'considered the Senate must have an effective voice in ordor to prevent extravagance. Without the senators having such voice they would never be able to maintain their influence, but would occupy a degrading position, aniu would practically have to I exist on charity.

Mr. B. S. Bird thought they would have as good men in the Senate as in the House of Representatives, and it was strange that they should be debarred the right of expressing their opinions on tho subjoct of taxation. Although he felt very strongly on tho question of the powers tho Senate should possess, the members should not at the present time press their opinions to such a point so as to exclude the colonies of Victoria and New South Wales, and prevent federation for ever. Under the existing form of tho clause, he felt quite cortain that the House would give every consideration to the suggestions sent down by the Senate, and while he favoured tho amendment, he would record his vote against it, for the sake of securing federation.. Mr. Adye Douglas asked why should small colonies say they would not come in ? Was it meant that these colonies wished to dominate tho rest?

Mr. Forrest intimated that ho would support the amendment. Ho thought it would bo difficult to induce small colonies to join the scheme, when they wore told that Victoria and New South Wales would have greater representation in tho House than all tho other colonies together, unless they were able to say that the Senate would have co-ordinato powers. He pointed out that the members of tho Convention at the present juncture were quite unprepared to say whether their people would accept or reject federation, and he hoped they would frame a Constitution in the best way possible, and devise some means to obtain the opinion of the people on the subject. Mr. T. Playford said they could not carry on responsible Government with two Houses having co-ordinate powers, therefore unless they were willing to do away with responsible government the House and Senate could not have co-equal powers. It was absurd to say that small States would be ridden over roughshod by the larger States. While they possessed equal representation in the Senate, and the latter had all tho powers they ought to have, the people, he said, must rule, and members could not get away from that fact.

Mr. Baker withdrew his amendment, and proposed the omission of a word, which would still give tho Senate power over money Bills.

Sir J. Cox Bray thought it was a mistake to touch money Bills. Ho believed that the peopleof the smallercolonies had perfectconfidenco in tho people of the largo colonies. Tho Government, ho said, must be for the people by the people.

Sir Geo. Grey considered the whole discussion was a mistake, andthoy would soon be discussing the question of liberties which did not exist. They could nob have liberty while plural voting remained, and until this system was abolished he considered tho constitutions they were calling into existence were a mere sham, -and that government by the people for the people did not and could not exist.

Mr. (J. R. Dm us supported the amendment, explaining that he had considerably changed tho opinions he had held with regard to nominee Houses, and ho favoured the establishment of a powerful Senate.

On a division the amendment was nogatived by 22 to 16.

Mr. W. McMillan moved tho two next sections as follows : — 1. In respect of laws appropriating necessary supplies for ordinary annual services of the Government the Senate shall have power to affirm or reject, but nob amend. 2. In respect of laws imposing taxation the Senate shall have power to amend, but if any proposed law imposing taxation is amended by the Senate and afterwards returned to the Senate by the House the Senate shall not have the power to send tho proposed law again to the House with any amendment to which the House lias not agreed, but shall either affirm or reject it.

After discussion Mr. McMillan's amendment was negatived.

Mr. Wrixon moved an addition that if tho House declined to make the required amondment, tho Senate may by resolution require a joint meeting of members of the two Houses which shall be held, and the question at issue between the Senate and House determined by a majority of the members present at such meeting. The amendment was negatived, and the clause passed without alteration. A recommendation that money votes should come from the Governor-General was passed. Clauses referring to the royal assent were passed. Chapter 2: Executive clause providing Ministers may sit in Parliament. Sir J. C. Bray moved, "That not less than two Ministers shall sit in the Senate.'

This was negatived, and the clause passed. * Number of Ministers and salaries, appointments of Civil Servants. Passed. The clause providing tor the authority of the Executive as recast now reads, " the Executive power and authority of tho Commonwealth extends to the execution of the provisions of this con stitution and the laws of the Commonwealth." The clause as thus modelled was passed.

Command of naval and military forces, and immediate control of , certain departments. Passed.

Chapter 3; Judica fcure Supreme Court. Mr. Kingston moved the erection of a conciliation and arbitration court to deal with industrial dispute?.

Sir Samuel Griffith would like to mow how such Courts would not interfere with tha property of civil rights ? Mr. Deakin said that if the question were left to the Federal Parliament, he thought it would be less satisfactory than if left to the States. There was necessarily a large amount of experimental legislation required, and it would be better to allow the States to do this. He should not discourage the several colonies dealing with the question in their own way.

Mr. Gillies thought it would be better to leave the question over, so as to enable the several Governments to consider the labour question and remit their conclusions to the Federal Parliament. >

The amendment was negatived by 25 to 12. Sir H. Atkinson anil Captain Russell voted for the amendment. Sir Geo. Grey did not vote. .

The clauses relating to the tenure of office of .Judges, appointment' of Judges, appellate jurisdiction, appeals may bo made final, passed.

Mr. Wrixon moved an amendment to the clause relating to appeal to the Queen in certain cases, with the object of reserving the rights of appeal to the Queen in any case.

. Mr. Diisbs said that if federation were to be accomplished under tho Crown then they must have the right to appeal to the Privy Council. So long 'us they remained part of the British Empire one law must prevail.

The amendment was negatived by 19 to 17.

Sir H. Atkinson and Captain Russell voted for the amendment, and Sir G. Grey against it.

The clause was carried.

Clauses relating to powers of courts, original jurisdiction, number of judges, and trial by jury were carried.

Progress was reported, and the Convention adjourned.

THE TIMES ON THE CONVENTION.

London, April 4.

The Times says that the Federal Convention now sitting in Sydney is exhibiting remarkable skill and assiduity in shaping a reasonable and consistent Constitution Bill. It rejoices at Sic George Grey's defeat over tho one man one vote principle and elective Governors, and states it will be surprised if Australia agrees to surrender appeal to the Privy Council.