PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS.

Hawke's Bay Herald, Volume 13, Issue 1061, 29 June 1869, Page 3

PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS.

THUBSDAY, JUNE 17.

MOTION OF WANT OF CONFIDENCE. r-AD-

JOUBNED DEBATE.

(From the " Independent.'^

The debate on Mr. Fox's motion of want of confidence was resumed.

My. Cujitis said the House was placed in much the same position as it was last year— it found itself at the beginning of a long debate without any policy to discuss. The hon. member for Bangitikei had said the Government had no policy to attack ; but the Governor's speech clearly indicated the policy of the Ministry. It {jointed to the continuance of the self-re-iance' policy j to the undesirability of making any further application for troops ; and to the necessity for raising a loan. The hon. gentleman might havo raised an issue 1 upon any of these points. When the address was before the House, the hon. gentleman reserved to himself the right of opposing any part of i fie. address j why had he not done so P. an I then, the House would know what it was talking about. On the subject beforo the House bon. members on both sides should express their opinions frankly. He frankly confessed that he considered there was a want of management on the part; of the 1 Government at the time of the conflict of authority on the West Coast, but since then the Government had acted with vigdnr, and Colonel Whitmore had been as successful as could have been anticipated. Since last session a remarkable change of opinion had taken place in the opinions of the honJ" member for Eangitikei with regard to the importance of the horse- ■ stealing by the West Coast natives ; and a still more remarkable change with regard to the merits of Colonel M'Donnell. (Hear, hear.) The criticisms of civilians on the operation of military men, save in exceptional instances, were of very little value. The hon. gentleman in his criticisms of Colonel Whitmore's operations had forgotten to take into account the state of the force under his command at the time. He believed that the force was now in an efficient state ; but that the remarks made last year as to its disorganised condition were perfectly true. The hon. member had been extremely unjust in his remarks about the results achieved by the operations of Colonel Whitmore. There was no doubt that Titoko Waru's power had been very much diminished ; and the news received that day proved this. Mr. Curtis then com- 1 mented upon the conduct of a portion of j the colonial press while military operations were going. on. Those papers seemed to havo endeavored to obstruct the operations as much as pessible. It was impossible to estimate the amount of injury which may have resulted from this course. A very wrong impression seemed to prevail in,the /South. Islund as to the object of the war. They seemed to consider that it was being carried on for the benefit of the North Island ; and did not realise that it was solely a war of selfdefence As to our being unable to pay for it, we were bound to meet the present difficulty and pay for it as best we could. This feeling did not exist in the province of Nelson, which felt that the existence of Cook's Straits did not release it from its common obligation with the North Island to put down the rebellion. He hoped that the latent resources of the colony would prove sufficient to enable us to surmount our present difficulties ; and that tho development of the Thames goldfield would relieve the South from a portion of the amount which it would . otherwise have to pay. It had been suggested that the South Island should pay a fixed sum to be released from any future liability ; but it was impossible for any man to say what the war would cost. Ifc would be impossible to meet the expenses of the war out of the current revenue, and a loan must be raised. The Government had no other course left to them but to sover their connection with Mr. M'Lean. It was impossible for them to allow an officer i to carry out his wishes in opposition to theirs. The mode of Mr.; MT'Lean's dismissal jwas," however, to say the least of it, unfortunate^ but the Colonial Secretary had explained jit in a satisfactory manner. (Oh, oh !) .Tlie Government could not properly have intimated to Mr. .M'Lean .his dismissal iby telegraph, since explanations could not have been made If this motion were carried, there was no other course.left to the Government but to dissolve fke Hous&t ifqij Jhe,' did not believe that 3|£r. Fox could carry on the Government j' and as to. the .middle or moderate party, it had no policy. If its policy was to acknowledge the Maori King's sovereignty (laughter) and to give up the confiscated lauds,! ho should say it was nothing but a moderate party. If its policy was not to raise a loao, it was impracticable. If a dissolution were determined on, what question would they lay beforo the country? The hon. member for Rangitikei had expressed no policy, but seemed to think that both the self-reliant policy and the Imperial troops were capital things. Upon this question of troops, if we could obtain them it would be only on condition that they should not fight. Although a firm supporter of the selfreliant policy, ho had always been iv favor of having a single regiment of troops in the colony, for which he would be willing to pay, on account of the moral effect they would hare both upon the natives and the Europeans. As the hon. member had oxpressed no policy, they wore bound to look at his policy when in office, and the policy he enunciated last session— of , putting the management of native affairs in the hands of the Superintendents of tho North Island, and to subsidise those provinces. That was a policy which did not meet with much favor with either the House or the country, and he was not himself disposed to give his vote to onablo the hon. member to carry that or somo other policy which he haa not yet enunciated into effect. (Loud cheers.)

Mr. VoaEL, affcor some preliminary remarks, said ho questioned whether the last speaker was a vqry good exponent of the opinions of the inhabitants of the province of Kelson. It might be asked, whether Nelson, with its immense resources, was bearing its fair share of the common burden. He was not so sure but what the hon member was endeavouring to do tho best he could for his own province in promising to support loans and other measures. There was a great deal of generosity in shedding the last drop of one's brother's blood. The war was, in spite of tho denial of the hon. member, affecting the commercial affairs of the colony, and tho interests of every ono in it. The hon. member was not fair in his remarks on Mr. M'Lean, as he had assumed that Mr. M'Lean was entirely in tho wrong. Was ever, such a thing heard of as a public servant o£ twenty years' standing being summarily dismissed without having an opportunity of saying a wordjn his defence? That abrupt dismissal might bo taken as an act of despotism, did thoy not know it. was tho act of a passionate, ill-tempered man, determined to have his own way. It had had a vory bad effect, since no public servant could feel sure but what he would be treated in the same manner. Tho hon. member at the head of the Government had done a great wrong; and he trusted that when unaffected by tho political ciy-

cumstances around him he would feol it his duty, by giving all publicity, aud any amount of personal apology, to endeavor to repair tho wrong. The very moment the Government found the condition of affairs in the colony getting serious, they ought to have convened the General Assembly and allowed it to Consider whether or not application should be made to the Imperial Government for troops. With regard to a loan, the real question at issue was — is ifc wise to raiso a loan, would not tho money be spent aud thrown away as other loans have-been P Tho state of tho House was not such as to make a dissolution absolutely necessary. It was a remarkable fact now few members spoke in favour of the Government, and how faint their praise was. Many members of high standing gave their support to the Government because they did not feel certain whether the present Ministry could be replaced by better men. They supported the Ministry from a conservative feeling and! would probably extend a similar support to their successors. A dissolution could only be : necessary in ordetf to give the Ministry a chance of retaining their places. The question which would bo placed before the country in the event of a dissolution was —whether the present Ministry is an in- . capable one or not P It was unreasonable to suppose that, if troops were sent to the colony, they would not be allowed to perform useful duties. Last session there wero two or three votes of want of confidenco in the Government. One was on account of their centralist tendencies. A j good deal of time was taken up in discussing the question, and it was clearly shewn that tho Government had been en- j gaged in a sort of conspiracy with a num- j er of agents roaming about the country, to influence people's minds on this subject. . Tho Government retained their scats, but were unable td cany out their centralist policy. They had abstained from i introducing their centralist opinions in the Governor's speech ; but still those opinions furnished ground for hon. members voting against them. His first reason for voting for this motion was that the 1 Government last year studiously ignored ; the authority of the Assembly, by keeping all information from it, and acting on their own responsibility. There was an absolute promise made last session that the Defence Department should be abolished. Although hon. members might, by ferreting out various votes, discover how the Government made out that £240,000 was voted last year for defence purposes, yet that sum was not specifically voted for the purpose. The self-reliance policy had E roved an absolute failure. The House ad been denied its proper liberty in not being called together to discuss the whole subject, and to try whether the self-reli- : ance policy should beretainedor disavowed. : Tho state of the country rendered this ' necessary. A previous speaker had rightly said that the Colonial Secretary had been an absolute king of New Zealand. His second reason for voting for the motion was, that we absolutely had nothing worthy of tho name of a Government. They had t specimen of reckless incompetency in in the conduct of tho Commissioner ■' of , Customs during the past.twelvo months. If it was the misfortune of the hon. member at the head of the Government to 1 bo associated with incompetent colleagues, ho was also responsible for their misdeeds. Tho fate of the country had been hanging in tho balance during the last twelve months ; and ifc had actually becomo an official joke, " any moro massacres today P" Had ifc not been for the influx of population to the Thames goldfields, even more serious disasters would have occurred. There had been a systematic suppression of information, both in the colony and at home. During the last twelve months we had been living in a position of abject dependence upon tho forbearance of tho Maori King. Government officials had been actually truckling to tho King. .When it was. remembered what terms had been offered by the King to a quasiGovornment agent, they would sco to what a humiliating position the country had fallen. Ho did not wish any romarkshe might make to be construed into a censure of Col. Whitmore. As far as he know, that officer had shown himself very brave, very^ courageous; and very enduring, and he should'be sorry to be mixed up with any motion of this kind a discussion on tho merits of commanders. The fact of the Commissioner of Customs being'mixed up with volunteering, and having obtained a seat on the Ministerial/benches did not necessarily gift him with a power of directing military affairs. They did not want tho members of the Government to mix themselves up with military affairs ; the greatest gift a Government could possess wastho faculty of choosing able servants to carry out their plans. The circumstances connected with Colonel Whitmore's application for troops from Taranaki reflected lasting discredit upon the colony. Could the Commissioner of Customs deny that tho troops were not sent owing to tho advico of a near relative of Titoko WaruP Had the Ministry been composed of able men, it would have taken its time before attempting to make reprisals ; but it commenced operations beforo it had made adequate preparations. The Government had either exhibited no prescience as to what was going on. amongst the natives, or it had deliberately deceived tho House. He believed the Commissioner of Customs desired to sco the colony, involved in a general war, so that his own services might bo absolutely necessary. Tho hon. gentleman then read somo extracts from an article in the" New ■ Zealand Advertiser, which ho stated he had very good reason tobclievo literally represented the opinions of tho Commissioner of Customs. A sentence of that articlo showed the hon. gentleman desired to apply tho whole of tho consolidated revenuo to carrying out the eccentricities of tho General Government. The policy of tho Government varied from time to time, as on tho subdof compensation. Tho Government simply acted as chanco directed. A third reason for his supporting the motion was, that it was for the good of the coun- I try the Ministry should resign; the country desired them to resign ; and they knew ifc. j It was a striking fact that out of all the now members, tho Government could only obtain a proposer to tho address; but could not obtain a socondor ; while the proposer declined to uudertako those obligations which proposers of addresses usually undertook. Tho hon. gentleman commented upon tho manner in which tho Colonial Secretary, tho late Postmaster-General, and tho Commissioner of Customs hadboen received by their constituents. The Defence Minister had long since told his constituents that ho would not resign, aud it was understood last session that he would be translated to tho Upper. House, to which most of those members who had been supporters of tho Government, aud who, having lost their scats wero replaced by gentlemen of Opposition opinions, wore promoted. (Cheers.) If anything was likely to induce a conflict between tho. two branches of the Legislature, ifc was the adoption of a course of this kind. Not a.singlo member had boon, olocted during tho session under a promiso to support the Government. Ho did not iraputo any sordid or improper motives to', the members of the Ministry in their desire to retain office. Thoy would, however, bo exhibiting patriotism 'by. 'resigning. It

was for tho good of the country that they should resign. By retaining office they wore standing in the way of the employment of Mr. M'Lean in the public service. It. was the general opinion that it was a public calamity that Mr. M'Lean should be shut out from the management of native affairs. ,. The Government also stood in the way of tho country obtaining assistance from home. Had the Ministry exhibited patriotism they would have told his Excellency last session that although they could not share his opinions regarding the duties of the Home Government towards the colony, thoy would riot stand in the way 6f the colony obtaining assistance, and would resign. Had they exhit bited similar patriotism to that shown by the Fox-Whitaker Ministry they would have resigned. 5 The Government had simply played out the Imperial policy. Had they forced the Imperial Government to an absolute statement, that Government could not liave. "said what they could now, that the Ministry had' never asked for troops.. The resolution passed by'tliVHouselast session was not conclusive, and iho Colonial Secretary had no right to write Hpmo as if tho resolution had been of a sufficient nature. Tho Home Government seeing that the colony neither accepted nor rejected their propositions, had . got. weary of years of negotiation. If the Home Government saw that they could evade sending troops they would do so ; but if the colony said it could not do without troops, the troops must come. What stood in tho way of our obtaining" troops, was the colony saying it could do without them. If we had a Government in power who said we must have troops — we cannot make provision without them— the troops would do forthcoming. Why could we not do. as the native leaders did — bide our time ! Ho would not pardon murderers —he would never pai'don Titokowaru and To Kooti ; but it did not therefore follow that during the time which would elapse before troops could be obtained from home, we wero to keep up a force. of 3000 men — a force much beyond our power to maintain. The position which the Middle Island took up was, that if a loan was" raised and spent, they did not see that thero would be. any return for their money. Very shortly, too, a large portion of tho population of Auckland would feel as the Middle Island did — that much of its revenue was being devoted to no good purpose. The question which affected both Islands was — Is there .any use in continuing to expend money P A. radical change was absolutely necessary to save the country from ruin. The self-reliant policy, as at present carried out, meant simply the payment of the men employed in. what were called defence purposes. Its commercial effect was to turn men from reproductive to unproductive pursuits; it ;was depopulating the country. There was no national feeling at the war; it was simply fighting for payment. It was our'duty to ask the bondholders of the colony in England to consider its position ; and the facts which we could lay before them, would be sufficient to gain us the assistance of tho most powerful interest in ah application for troops, ' although he did riot believe such assistance was necessary, as an applica-. tion from the Assembly was not likely to be disregarded. We had a number of hostile influences at work against us at homo ; ( and thoso who could {wate at home in such a manner as had >een done about "the. policy of self-reliance wero not true men to tho colony. He would ask whether the Colonial Treasurer had not protested at homo against tho resolution passed by ; the Assembly last session. [The Colonial Secretary denied that tho Colonial Treasuror had done so.] Tho argument which had been used about the numerical, disproportion botween the two races was utterly fallacious. If tho two races were pitted against each other, tho Europeans might .bo victorious ; but tho colony, unaided, was riot strong enough to colonise the Worth Island and preserve a portion of tho native race. No adequate knowledge of our position had been sent home; the information had been suppressed. He hoped-'thero would be . an end .to our arrogant, pretensions. If the Government vyould tjirow thp responsibility upon the Imperial Government, and leave the Imperial .officors uncontrolled to work the. matter' out their. own way, the colony would nevev, know more of native troubles, The.. Colonial Secretary had said that no othpr- Ministry but his own could be formed? forgetting that, he ha,d vainly sought 'the .assistance of many other "members. He'oelieved that if Mr. ; Fox held. office for.a.few mouths, the present Commissioner of Customs would bo found coquetting for a seat in his cabinet. The hon. gentleman concluded by summarising his reasons for supporting the motion, and, apologising for the discursiveness of his remarks, sat down amid loud cheers.

Mete Kingi said this was tho second session attended by himsolf and Tareha, but onaccountof their not being acquainted with the English language, they did not understand all that was going on. Nevertheless they would stato the thoughts of their people. Tho hon. gontlemon gave some particulars connected with tho services of the friendly natives on the West Coast. He recommended that Tauroa and his people should bo brought to Wanganui, and not left at Patoa, lest they should cause trouble there. (Hear, hear.) If left afc Patea, they might hold communication with. Titokowavu. Tlio matter, nowovev, rested with tho Government. If tho Government would supply one portion of the , provisiens, ho would furnish tho other. Ho was watching carofully tho action that was being "taken in the House with regard to tho Government ; but did not understand the , niattor well. He would, however, act-according to his own thoughts. „ .

Tho Hon. J. Hall said the member for tho Goldfields had mado a speech which, allmust agree, was very able and ontcrtaining. It was' not however necessary for him to answer all thd" hon. niembor's assertions, as they all know that, on occasions of this kind, the hon. member was largely indebted to " Hansard" and his imagination. Ho had failed to grapple with the arguments contained in tho admirable speeph made by tho hon. member for Nelson, When. Mr. M'Lean found his opinions so radically different from those of tho Government, there was no other course open to him, upon- finding that ho could not conscientiously carry out the ordors he received,; to resign, and as ho did not do. so, tho Government wero compelled to withdraw the agency from him.' Tho Government did not dismiss Mr. M'Lean in such a way, as tho hon. member had said, as to convey tho imputation that ho had boen guilty of somo enormous oifonco ; they did not dismiss him at all ; they simply withdrew tho agency from him. It was a shani. and a farce for hon. members to say they did not knovy.why tho agency was withdrawn from Mr. M'Lean .' Tho Government was not shutting Mr. M'Lean out of tlio public service; Mr. M'Leau was shutting himself out. Tho Government were responsiblo for tho conduct of affairs ; and must have tlio power of control. Ho protosted against tho assertion; that tho Government had ignored tho Assembly with "rogarii to the troops; the Goncral Assombly had repeatpdly declared it would do without tho troops. . He ' did not- under-

stand how the hon. member could say that the Government, in endeavoring to give effect to the resolution passed last session, was ignoring tho Assembly. His hon. colleague tlio other evening stated distinctly that Mr. Firth and others were negotiating with the Maori King without authority from the Government. The hon. gentleman in his facetious remarks about the result of the meetings of the members of the Government with their constituents, and their probable fate at a general election, had only told so much of the truth as was necessary for his purpose. There had been a remarkable change in the opinions #of the Oppoi sition regarding a dissolution since last session. Then they were orying out for a dissolution ; and now they deprecated it. The patriotism of the Fox-Whitaker Ministry was a long > while manifesting itself, since they required six months to make up their minds to resign. Tho attack made by tho hon. member for Oamaruwasa very grave one; but. the hon. member had fallen into the fault, common; among young members, of mistaking vehemence of assertion for strength of argument. Ho sympathised with tho hon. member in the regret which he had expressed lest the connection of the colony with the mother country should bo severed; but, as men of business, we were bound to look facts in the face, and ask ourselves what benefit we derived from that connection. She refused us any assistance for internal or external defence. (No, no. Hear, hear.) For the protection of the Australian colonies she sent four ships, which, in tho event of war, would be kept by them, while our seas would be swarming with hostile cruisers, and our ports blockaded ; and for a quarrel with which wo had nothing to do. We were bound to take. these things into consideration. The hon. member had been loudly cheered, but he would caution that hon. member that those cheers were given because the Opposition was sure of his vote. The Government had been anxious to ascertain what the manifesto of tho leader of the Opposition would be. The only real warning of the intended escapo of the Chatham Island prisoners tho Government received was that of Capt. Thomas, which reached them after the escape had taken place. He (Mr. Hall) never said that the future cost of the military operations would not be more than the ordinary cost of the sittings of that House. What he stated was that tho operations then going on were not costing more than the ordinary cost of the sittings of the House. The Defence Minister had been unjustly blamed for not going to the Front, but his proper place was at the seat of Government, whore ho could control the operations on both coasts. * His hon. colleague had necessarily come in for a large share of unpopularity ; but when the history of tho war came to be calmly reviewed, it would be acknowledged that the hon. gentleman had done his duty and performed valuable services to the colony. The hon. member for Eangitikei had probably, by this time, come to the conclusion that the pretended letter from Ti toko war v was a mistake. Why did not the hon. gentleman express tho same opinions about tho merits of Colonel M'Donnell last session as ho had done this ? When Colonel M'Donnell was attacked, the hon. gentleman did not say a word in his favor. Colonel M'Donnell was, however, then in the service of the Government, while now he could be made political capital of. As the Colonial Secretary had stated, the General Government last year sacrificed four votes rather than dismiss Colonel M'Donnell. Tho hon. member's statements about selfrclianco were somewhat bewildering. He said that ho believed in self-reliance ; but would send for Imperial troops. Tho hon. member had treated tho subject rather gingerly, but the speech of the hon. member for tho Goldficlds left no doubt that this was the key-stone of tho policy proposed. In considering whether the self- ; reliant policy should be abandoned, they j had to consider what would be tho rosult | of their obtaining troops, and whether they wero likely to get them. They had in- j finite proof of the mischief resulting from divided authority ; the troops would be an expensive force ; they would do as they did before, drive tho natives into the bush and then leave tho colony. The natives would never bo quieted unless we had a permanent force in the colony, ready to repress any outbreaks. Supposing they resolved to have troops, tho hon. member for Eangitikei had not given them a ghost of an idea of what they were to do until tho troops arrived. But tho extracts from the despatches which ho would read left but little doubt that no application for troops would be acceded to. They might fairly infer, if | tho Imperial Government would not givo us a guarantee for a loan which would cost it nothing, it would not send troops which would put them to expense. The despatches laid on tho table that day shew that there is no intention on the part of the Imperial Government of allowing the 18th Eegirnent to be retained i in tho colony ; and this was confirmed by oxtracts from confidential despatches to the Governor. The sooner they made up j their minds that it was entirely visionary to expect assistance from home tho better it would be for the colony. They must carefully ascertain what they were able to do, gird up their loins to do it, and ho had no doubt the resources of tho colony would enable it to overcome tho difficulty. Tho hon. niombor for Eangitikei ought to have given his opinion of tho state of affairs, and of what ought, to be done. Ho ought to have stated how ho proposed to defend the North Island, supposing wo obtained Imperial troops ; how ho proposed to obtain tho money which must bo found within tho next two months ; what he intended to do about tho confiscated lands ; and whether ho intended to mako any provision to meet tho wants of tho country districts. Tho hon. gentleman had left them in, apparently, studied ignorauco on all these subjects. When he sought to undertake tho management of tho affairs of tho country, he was bound to givo somo explanation of how ho proposed to manage them. Tho Government did not protend to have mado no mistakes ; but thoy had dono good sorvico for New Zealand ; thoy had tackled tho difficulty — they had tackled tho bush, which was tho key to the wholo affair. They had proved to tho natives that they could not come down and plunder and murder, and then retire into tho bush in satety. Both natives and Europeans had grown into tho belief that tho natives could not bo followed into tho bush. The Government did not wish to take credit for dispelling this belief to thonisolves, but gavo it to Colonol Whitmore. The Government had put into his Excellency's speech statements as directly challenging tho opinion of hon. members as it was scoinly to put into a speech of tho kind ; aud wero grcviously disappointed at tho challenge not being taken up. Tho Colonial Secretary then stated that he would take an oarly opportunity of stating tho native policy of tho Government, and when the hon member for Eaugitikci stopped in with his motion, ho (tho Colonial bocrotary) did roughly sketch out that policy. Tho hou. niombor for Eangitikoi ought to have stated a policy. Thero wero two questions before the House— whether tho present Government was right to hold offico; and^ whether tho hon. member for

Rangitikei was fit to do so. His own opinion was, that the hon. member was not fit ; and ho should very much deylore the resolution being carried. (Cheers.) Mr. Collins moved the adjournment of the debate.

The Houso ad ourned at 12.30 a.m.