CITY TRAMS

Evening Post, Volume CI, Issue 16, 19 January 1921, Page 7

CITY TRAMS

COUNCIL DISCUSSES COST

OF RUNNING

COMMITTEE OF INVESTIGATION

APPOINTED

THE RECENT FARE INCREASES,

A LENGTHY MEETING. „

That a special meeting of the oouncil be held in the Council Chamber, Town Hall, Wellington, on Tuesday, 18th January, at 8 p.m., for the purpose of further considering the matter of tramway fare?, finance, and management; that 1 a- '• . committee of inquiry be appointed to take, evidence, and make recommendations, with a view .to securing economy in,the tramway administration. Hie above recommendation, signed' by Councillors O. H. Chapman, R. .A. Wright, J. Barns, J. M. Dale, J. 0. Shorland, L. -M'Kenzie, and J. Hutchison, was. responsible for a. special meeting of the City Council 1 last night. The requisition was forwarded to the Town Clerk, when a special meeting., called, to consider the last increase in fares, lapsed, as there was not a quorum present. At last night's meeting the following were, present:—The -Mayor (Mr. J. P. Luke, 0.M.G., M.P.), and Councillors B. G. H. Burn, J. W. Henderson, J. Bums, J. Thompson., T. Forayth, W. H. Bennett, W. J. Gaudin, A. R. Atkinson, C. B. Norwood, L. M'Kenzie, M. F. Luckis, J. 0. Shorland, J. M. Date, C 11. Chapman, J. Hutchison. P. Fraser, M.P., and E, A. Wright, M.P.

Councillor Chapman moved the motion quoted above, and, in doing so, raised an objection to the methods adoptedi by the councsil in deciding on th-o recent increases. ■He suggested that the committee should consist of members of the council, who would make recommendations to take the place of those not brought forward by the Tramway Committee, when the increase^ were recommended. ' He referred to the profits of past years, and said; tbattshe members ,of the oouncil should have had- full information as to the finances before the recent increases were made. The increases had been aimed entirely at the people in the suburbs, and yet those were the very people who should be carried at the lowest possible fare; public policy dictated that the people be encouraged to live in the outlying districts. One must admit that wages, and price of coal, and .working expenses generally had. increased, but fares had increased by a, greater ratio (cries of "No, no"), and therefore the position should be investigated.. Ah opportunity to give evidence should bo placed before those who understood the workings of the system, so that, if there had been mismanagement, it could bo remedied.

1 Councillor Forsyth : "Can you indicate where it is?" .-

.Councillor Chapman: "lam not prepared to do that, but I am suggesting that a committee shoirid go into the matter." ■

It was agreed that the motion .should be put in the following form:— That a committee of the Council be appointed to take evidence and-, make recommendations with a view to securing economics in tramway administration.

BY WAY OF PROTEST.

The motion was seconded by Councillor M'Kenzie, who stated that those councillors who. voted against the last increase did so because they felt that they had not been given sufficient data. An increase was decided *ipon just prior to the December increase, and it was then estimated that the additional revenue would amount to £40,000 per annum. No progress reports were supplied by the management.

The Mayor: "They were shown in the monthly, returns." • .

Councillor M'Kenzie said that they all realised that the tramway revenue must equal the expenditure.

Councillors

Hear, hear.

Councillor M'Kenzie asserted that the tramway department was not managed economically. The way in which coal was liandled was "a monument of in■competency." He thought, with other councillors, that 'they should have a full inquiry into the management. He could see no'reason for opposing the setting up of a "committee. If the management was all right, then the officers would emerge with a halo round their heads. If it was not all right, then the council should see that it was put right. Councillor ■ M'Kenzie questioned the correctness of figures which had been submitted to the council, and then drew 'attention to the desirability of cheapening the fares to travellers to 'the outskirts of the city. The- council was now throwing a' greater burden on those people and forcing them into the city proper. ■ People were not satisfied that the present high fares were justified, but if good reasons could be shown there would be no protests. He was sure that economies could be effected.

At this staste the Mayor informed Councillor M'Kenzie that his time was up, and Councillor M'Kenzie said he did not know that there would be a "closure."

The Mayor : " There is no. question of a closure. I merely tell you that your time —ten minutes —is now up, so be as brief as possible."

TOO MUCH DEAD BURNING?

Councillor M'Kenzie was giv«i permission to finish his remarks. It was suggested, he said, that they were running too many dead, cars through the city, and they had to decide whether it would be more profitable to despatch care from the economic centre, Courtenay-pla.ce. The Mayor: The line between Cour-tenay-place and Lambton station is the only portion of the-, service which is paying. .'■.;'■•

Councillor M'Kenzie: "I don't deny that, but I still say that too many dead cars are run through the city." It was their duty to cut out dead runningowhere necessary, and he. .with, other councillors, felt that the number of car-miles run was far too high.

HOW MONOPOLIES PAY.

Councillor Shorland' remarked that any monopoly could easily pay its way by raising the price of the commodity _ sold; that was always.the course taken by the tramway management. No attempt, apparently, was made to find another solution. He referred to the way in which suburban residents were penalised, and maintained that it cost some families as much as £60 a year for tram fares. He agreed with Councillor M'Kenzie that the tramway centre should be moved to Courtenay-place, and added that the ■ Courtenay-place-Lamb-ton station section should be split into two or three penny sections. . There were many people who were now walking the footpaths who would he willing to pay a penny for short sections in the business centre. Councillor Shorland went on to say that 650 empl<>yees were>-used to run 110 cars.

Councillor T>uckie : "Do you think they should, be reduced?"

Councillor Shorland: "I think we should have a proper number , '". „, but ho more." N

Councillor Luekie your. Labour supporters."

"You will loso

Councillor Shorland-: "I am not ,wor-

rying about support. All that 1 look to is the interest of the citizens." He supported the plea for a full investigation.

MAYOR PROPOSES INDEPEND.

ENT INQUIRY.

The Mayor stated that it had been asserted that it was not good policy when the council put back into the tramway concern money which 'had been earned. That policy resulted in a-saving of £17,000 per annum. He protested against the statement that insufficient data was placed before the council. The returns were issued four-weekly, and ■were very complete. On the general question, Mr. Luf* said that conditions were still abnormal, and he reiterated that the tramway department must pay its way and not become a burden on posterity. Ho showed how enormous the increases had been,, the 1 figures he quoted being those which have already been published. "If you are going to have an inquiry by people outside the council, I am with you," said Mr. Luke. "I think the inquiry should.go further than, that proposed. Let our capital expenditure be considered. Then, again, consider our narrow streets and the necessity of running short'and narrow cars. Christchurch has the water-power, and we have not. We aro.up against it. Let us realise that and get away liome. Submit the affairs of the department to experts if you like, but let them be outSide the,council, and let them take into account' the first costs, the continuing costs, and th& disabilities under which we are, working. An inquiry inside- the council will get you no furthen than i,you ara to-day.", ■

FULL INFORMATION GIVEN.

Councillor Forsyth congratulated tho seven on dropping the rescinding motion brought down for the first special meeting ■ .

. Councillor Hutchison : " You stay, a. ways did that."

Councillor Forsyth : " This new resolution concocted io-night is much better." Continuing, he referred to the /full information given the council from time to time, and said there was no foundation for the suggestion that councillors had not been given tne details they sought. The fact that for every £1 of revenue secured in the thirty-six: weeks of the current financial year the council Bad had. to expend 26s Sd spoke for. itself. The. only section paying its way was tho city section,'and the loss allowed on the outlying sections was the best answer— and an irrefutable answer — to the "fudge" talked by Councillor Shorland about how suburban residents were penalised. Councillor Forsyth twitted ' the opponents to the increases with not having read the information supplied to them in regard to increased working «•- penses. .

A Councillor : " When did you get the information ?"

Councillor Forsyth : " I have had this several days." Councillor M'Kenzie : "After we had decided on tho increase; after we had done the job."

The Mayor : " No, Councillor M'Kenzie; you are not rijfht in saying that. You have had the information every month."

Councillor Forsyth referred to the puggestion as. to "dead" cars, End. aslted. that the Hraffic superintendent should say. whether there was a great deal of "dead "-running; in any case to cut Out cars_ would lesson- the. -ifficiency of the service. The Tramway Department was not singular in Us experience of an in-i crease of expenditure 'over . revenue; : the recently published railway returns, for instance, showed that while revenue had increased by £728,000 expenditure ha<s gone up by £935,000. He had no great objection to the motion brought forward by Councillor Chapman except tjin't it seemed in th^ nature of a vote of no-con-fidence in the Tramway Committee. To remove this aspect of the matter, he moved as an amendment :— " That the committee of inquiry to be set up consist of the members of the

Tramway Committee.

Tho amendment was seconded by Councillor Henderson, who said that they were all agreed, he thought, that something should be done. If that was so, the Tramway Committee could best undertake any inquiry.

INCREASED COSTS: INCREASED

FAKES.

Councillor Bennett said it seemed obvious that the high cost. of. running must be met by. securing increased income. If any councillors saw how economics could be effected they should say. so. However, they had never made any suggestions.. Tile system could not cany more passengers during rush homVeven if passengers were carried free of charge. It was necessary, perhaps)" to induce greater travelling during the slack hours when it was necessary to • employ the men or else pay them for. time yhen they were idle. It was practically impossible to eliminate dead tunning through the city, but it -would bo quite fair to inquire into the\ position. It was the duty of the council to make the trams pay then- way. and as far as he could see the only way to do it was to increase the fares. Ho had heard of no other workable proposal.

EXCELLENT—BUT LATE.

Councillor Dile said the councillors should have had notice that the proposal to increase the fares was to be discussed a{ the December meeting.

The. Mayor interjected that he had in- . formed councillors at a. certain meeting that the matter of increasing the fares would be dealt with in committee at the liext meeting. Co-mcillor Dale, complained that the council had decided on tbe increase', without the full information now avajflable; the excellent report of the General Manager was dated 4th January. Councillor Luckie: "Doesn't if; bear out what wo have done?"

Councillor Da'e Councillor Luckie answßj-> .

'Of course it does. "There's your

Councillor Dale asked what was the good of the report now ?'-.-,' A councillor: "To convince you." , WAtf.T OF CONFIDENCE NOT

JUSTIFIED,

Councillor Luckie said that after all he had heard hejvas more convinced than ever that the council should not pass the . motion proposed. The monthly returns had told.the story—the increase in the percentage of working expense* to revenue. The city section, as had been, shown, was carrying the whole burden, And several of the councillors were only, taking the opportunity of'talking 1 to the outlyiug districts when- they submitted that the prices over longer distances were too nigh. 'Wellington fates were less- on the average than Auckland farosy and Wellington had a common, liiie far longer than that of any other iiystem in New Zealand. The outlying districts . benefited by. loag sections. The executive officers of the department had run the "service very ■'successfully. Councillor Luckie concluded with a jibe at the Labour representatives, who, he said, objected to increases in fares on principle/ He did not know what the> principle was, but it appeared to exist. Councillor Chapman had gone so far as to say that the trains should be a burden on the rates. The motion, he said, was one of direct no-confidence ,in the management, and to that extent -was not justified. -

ILLUMINATING FIGUEEiL

Councillor Hutchison said he would oppose the amendment, because the mover and seconder were members of

the Tramways Committee and wer»' virtually asking for a vote of confidence, when. A3 a matter or fact, the committee had neglected to bring down import-i ant information until after *he increases had been decided. ; '

The Mayor interrupted the Speaker to reiterate his statement that the members of the council had been given full, information month by month. The matter had purposely been kepf from the public to prevent people , from buying up concession tickets. He added that the. officers of the department informed him that, on one item aloi:e, Wellington, evjpn on the pre-war basis,, had to pay £50,000 a, year more than Christchurch. for the running of its trams.. He was' referring, of course, .to the diftVenc^ between the ccet of hydro-electric power and the cost of coal for generating power. In face of 'facts like ; that, wasn't such a debate as that niaht'* a. waste of time? . ■ .'.' ■

OUTSIDE INQUIRY FAVOURED

Councillor Burn said that some of the most able men on the council were members of the Tramways Committee, and thay should have a thorough knowledge of the working of the department,; as most of them had years of experience behind them. He was convinced that no good would come of an inquiry, within the council, but it might be of benefit to refer the matter to outside experts. Councillor. Gaudin said, that the last increase in fares was certainly not sprung on him. It could not have been sprung on any councillor who had studied,tho monthly returns and used his brains. Expenses might te cut down, with a 'reduction in efficiency, but he ivduld not favour that course. The people were entitled to. the very oest seyflce: possible. He was in favour of a committee of inquiry, providing that the committee was drawn from-outside the council.

Councillor Norwood approved what had been done in the past:" He considered Councillor M'Kenzie's suggestion that Courtenay-place should be the despatch point had much common-sense in it, ,but • added that, the' difficulty of collecting a great number of, cars in such a busy centre would first have . to : be overcome.,■< An inqniry by-outsiders, or even by members of the council not thoroughly-conversant 'with the working of the department, would be a very costly matter. -■ He! supported the amendment. ; Councillor Burns supported the'motion on the ground that it was in accordance with the' dictates of good business.-- He dealt in particular with the disabilities of Kai-ori residents, and argued that if there was nothing to hide there could be no objection to a full inquiry. . .-'

UNANIMOUS DESIRE FOR INQUIRY.

Councillor Fraser stated that ■• judging by the discussion there was one point about which there was no difference of opinion, namely, , the reed ,for- anVinquiry. ' ' '

The -Mstyor. said that he did not agree that an inquiry was necessary,-but if there was to be an inquiry let it be an outside one. '

Councillor Fraser stated that Athene should."be no difficulty about. arriving at a unanimous decision. ,If.was the policy of the Labour Party to'--'compel"-those landowners who benefited by the. extension of the. tramways to contribute towards the cast'of the undertaking. They were prepared to j^o before the peopla with that policy. There was no causa for any suggestion of a reflection, on the tramway staff who should welcome an'expeirl inquiry. It might be 1 that the finances of the department were' on a wrong basis. If the amendment was pressed he would vote for the original motion unless some compromise was ar-' rived at. . ■ ; .."' >-..".',

Councillor Atkinson, felt that, the minority in connection'with, the--vote for the increase in fares had ii grievance, on tho ground, for instance, 0; procedure; j but the motion proposed opened up much wider fields: He could not'-reconcile Councillor Fraser's disavowal of any reflection on the' management'-with the statements of supporters of the motion.

The kind of inquiry he favoured was for councillors to go to their own experts for information.

Councillor Chapman, in support of Ids argument that landowners should pay their quota to the cost of the trams...said. / the Hataitai Land Company had paid ' £10,000 to have the trams run through, the hill. v '"•■ SHOOTING AT TRAMWAY COMMITTEE. ■ ; ■ .

Speaking to the amendment, Councillor Dale said it was the Tramway Committee at which they were shooting. The Tramway Committee did not give the necessary consideration to the affairs of the department. - :

Councillor Thompson objected to that statement, and said Councillor Dale should withdraw it..

The Mayor said .there was ho call for a withdrawal.

Councillor Dale: " Well, I will say that the Tramway Committee . does its work properly. It meets for half an hour each .fortnight I will leave the public to judge of the amount of work done." He reiterated that the council did not have sufficient information. . ;

MOTION CARRIED.

The Mayor then put the amendment, on which the voting was as.follows:— Noes (13): The Mayor, Councillors Atkinson, Bennett, Burn, Chapman. Dale. Fraser, Gaudin, Hutchison, Luckie, M'Kenzie. Shorland, Thompson; Ayes (5): Councillors Burns, Forsyth, Henderson, ■Norwood, Wright.

The motion was then carried, the division list being:—Ayes (10): Councillors Bennett, Burns, Chapman, Dale, Fraser, Gaudin, Hutchison, M'Kenzie, Shorland, Wright; Noes (8): The. Mayor, Councillors Atkinson, Burn, Forsyth, Header-\ son. Luckie, Norwood, Thompson. The Mayor: "Do you propose to name your committee to-night?" ' r '

Councillor Chapman: "Yes. Councillors M'Kenziei Fraser, Wright, Burn, Gaudin, Norwood, andthe mover."

Councillor M'Kenzie: " You must have* the Mayor." , , ....

The Mayor: "The Mayor won't act." \

.The "committee was adopted by .10 votes to 8, the council beinpr dividedin the'same way as on the previous motion. NOT FINISHED YET.

The meeting then closed. Subsequently, notice of motion to rescind the proposal to set up a committee was given by Councillors Forsyth. Luckie, and Thompson. ''* ': "'■ ' '. ' .'." ' ' '■-'"'''