W. VAN ASCH.]

7

I.—lob.

That, sir, and gentlemen of the, Committee, is a letter from Mr. W. Nelson, of Tomoana, who has, as I have already intimated, had business relations with Messrs. Armour and Co. Well, sir, what I want to say is this : there may have been other delegates directed to support the application of Messrs. Armour and Co. for a license when the matter came up at the conference and were influenced by Mr. Lysnar's elocpience. The Chairman: Ido not think you want to throw discredit on Mr. Lysnar. Mr. Van Asch : We'll, all I can say is that we ought to have all the competition we can get for our produce. Hon. Mr. Mac Donald : Mr. Chairman, I should like to know whether we are dealing solely with Messrs. Armemr and Co.'s petition, because; I desire to ask Mr. Van Asch one question with reference to Messrs. Vestey Bre>s. The Chairman : Yes, in a general way. Mr. Van Asch referred to the resolution that includes Messrs. Armemr and Co. Hon. Mr. Mac Donald (to Mr. Van Asch): You arc aware-, a.re you not, that the Farmers' Cemfe-rence passed a resolution asking the Government to prevent Ve-stey Bros.' operations in New Zealand ? I understand that they have purchased freezing-works at Tomoana. Would it be> detrimental to the farmers if no license; was granted to Vestey Bros, for the purpose of carrying on their operations at Tomoana ? —lt would be an absolute calamity if tho Tomoana works were to shut down. We would have- te> rail the- stock away, because the, Hawke's Bay Freezing-works wemld not be able to kill all the stock for us. If they were to shut down Ido not know what we would do. Mr. Lysnar: You are of course aware that Nelson Bros, have applied for a transfer to Vestey Bros. ? —No, I was not aware of that. You have no reason te> suppose that if the: Minister refuses to consent to a transfer Nelson Bros, will close thoir works up ? —I know nothing about Nelson Bros.' operations. But yem said something about shutting clown the Tomoana works ? —I do not know anything at all abemt Nelson Bros.' operations. If the- Minister refuses to consent to a transfer from Nelson Bros, to Ve-stey Bros., what do you think that Nelson Bros, are likely to do, speaking from your own knowle-dge ? —I do not know anything about Nelson Bros. But e;annot you express an opinion ? —Pe>ssibly the prices of our fat lambs might become- less. If the Minister refuses the transfer ?—That might possibly take place. If they do not get the: Minister's consent ? —I should think' they wemld take' it for granted that they woulel get his consent. I cannot imagine, why they shemld not get his consent. Are- you not aware that it has been stated that Ne-lson Bros.' object in selling to Vestey Bros, is in order to fight the trust ? —No. You are not ?—Ne>. Mr. Nelson stated to me, that he had a very favourable opinion of Armoiu and Co. He stated to me that he had deme business for twenty years with Armour and Co., and that he hael femnel them splendid men. The Chairman: Have: you found any lack of competition in tho Hawke's Bay District?— Yes, there: is a great lack of competition. There is one man whe> purchases practically three-quarters of the, fat stock in the district where: I live. You have not sufficient competition ?—So far as I am aware no one has ever complained of the prices in any shape e>r form, but there is practically only one man to deal with. Mr. Lysnar: You think that by admitting Armour and Co. you would have: more competition ? — Of course we, would. Certainly we would. Hon. Mr. Nosivorthy: Do you consider that the, advent of Armour and Co. would make any difference in the Hawke's Bay market for fat stock, seeing that Mr. Nelsem has stated that for twenty years they have dealt with Armour and Co. ? Would not the same thing still continue ? —No. I understand they have, dealt with Armour and Co. in London as middleme-n. It would bo different if Armour and Co. were here. I understand that we would gain because' of the- fact that Armour and Co. weralel purchase our mutton and lamb and ship it to America, where the best market is. Yem read Mr. Nelson's letter to the, Committee just now. Among other things a reference was made to the Department of Agriculture, and it al.se: refleoted on the capacity of the: people generally in opposition to the; Meat Trust. But are not those reflections also em the ability and brains of the whole of the Government of the United States, who had to fight this trust, and bring to light so much evidence against it? Well, sir, it seems to me that the, "Summary" to which I believe you refer has not injured the meat people very much. It seems to me: that in regard to the meat business, as in regard to many other businesses, it is a, case of the survival of the fittest. You know that Armour and Co. is one e>f the " Big Five," and that the United States Government has passed legislation putting them out of business in the United. States. Do you now advocate that they should be allowed to enter inte> business here ? —So far as 1 know, the' United States Government have not sheeted home their charges. Ido not know of anything that has be-em brought against Armour and Co. outside' of what I have road in the- " Summary." Mr. 0. T. J. Alters examined. (No. 5.) The Chairman: Your full name, Mr. Alpors ? o,se;ar Theirwalel Jeihan Alpers. Yemr address ? —Christchurch. And your occupatiem ? —Barrister. Will you make a statement ?—Yes, sir. lam not a farmer, sir, and lam not interested in meat. I have erne share in Armour and Co. of Australasia. My share is e>ne £5 share, which 1 hold merely in order to be able to exercise certain powers in connection with, my duties as solicitor te> the company, and I have: attended all the meetings of the, directors of the' company in that capacity. I have no other financial interest in the, company beyond the £5 share which I have mentioned. I have been asked to explain what I know of the position of Armour and Co. of Australasia in New Zealand. I was the solicitor who incorporated the company here, and I know its history from first to last, because the instructions for the formation of the company came to me' direct at the outset. I may say that