1.—13 a.

8

[professor pickrn.

6. How long do you consider the Commission would need to sit?— Perhaps three or four months would cover it. 7. I notice you state that you personally would be very sorry to see the Senate permitted to exercise control over such a university as you suggest. What are your objections?— The present Senate, do you mean ? 8. Yes? —Well, I think it is shown in all the evidence put before you that in our opinion the University Senate is constituted in a very unsatisfactory way for dealing with such a situation. 9. You do not wish to enter into the particulars of that situation? —I think it is covered by what the Chairman of the Committee asked us not to enter upon, the information that is contained in the pamphlet on university reform in New Zealand, and the evidence taken before the Education Committee in 1911. 10. Do you consider, professor, that the future relationship of technical schools and the University should be changed altogether, or in what direction? —I think it is generally recognized that technical education has to be put on a better footing, and, as far as I know myself about technical colleges, it seems to me they are doing a very great deal and are not adequately provided with means for doing it. All their teachers are, bo far ac I have been able to gather, killed with overwork, and I suggested that that was a point that might be raised in connection with the teaching in universities. It is done in other Rritish centres, where the relationship between the technical college and the university college is being strengthened. 11. You appreciate and admire the work thai the technical colleges are doing? —Yes, it is of the most vital importance. 12. Mr. McCaUum.] Can you suggest whom you would like on this Royal Commission?—l think it would be the greatest possible mistake for us to suggest. 13. You do not suggest?— No. 14. Neither the Home appointees or the local ones?—No; we have suggested types as an illustration of what type of man should be used in this connection. 15. There are two sides in this fight, those who are contending that if we give in to the reform party and allow the internal examination it would cheapen our degrees, and those who contend otherwise. I have read all the literature, but you have not satisfied me that you are not going to cheapen our degrees down to the level of the American degrees. That is what 1 want you to show us more concisely, or reasons in favour of a modified system. I think you are going to lower our degrees and make us the laughing-stock throughout the British Dominions if we give in to you. I do not say, professor, that the time will not come when we will be able to get able New-Zealanders, retired professore, outside of the University colleges, able to take up these papers and examine as they examine at Home just now. but we say the time is not ripe to give in to you people, and that you are going to cheapen our degrees entirely? —Of course, Mr. Chairman, you understand that the great body of past evidence is in relation to the questions raised, but Professor Yon Zedlitz is going to bring up some up-to-date evidence on the question. I should like to answer one or two questions that Mr. Malcolm has suggested. He raised the question of your giving in to us. You will understand that is essentially not the position. 16. I think you are quite right—l never blamed anybody for what you are doing? —You understand that we are not trying to get you to give in to us, but we are anxious for the most impartial inquiry that can possibly lie made in such a manner as to determine whether we are right or the Chancellor i> right With regard to what Mr. McCaUum said about our University becoming the laughing-stock of the world in general, I think a very strong case can be made out for the fact that it is at present the laughing-stock of those who know most about university questions. 17. You should not say that —our degrees are well thought of? —Mr. MeCalluni has further said that lie considers the time will come when we shall have graduates of our own in this country able to take a share in the conduct of university examinations. Well, my own feeling is very strongly thai if we proceed on our present lines we are putting that time off as far as possible. The best way to prepare for the time when we can get our examinations conducted in such a manner is to do the best we can under the present circumstances. 1 do not know whether it is quite clearly understood, tint in England in each university subject the examination is conducted partly by the teacher and partly by an assessor who is almost invariably a professor in some other university. What we propose in our suggestion is that practically the same system should be carried on in New Zealand, that the teachers should examine, and that they should be assisted in their examination of the students by teachers of other institutions. If the University is to be maintained as one University, which we consider to be the right course for the present, then all that would be necessary would be that each of the four men should have his students examined partly by himself and partly by the other three men. It seems to us the logical way of applying here the principle upon which they examine students in every part nf the British Empire. I think that is all I need say in reply to Mi-. McCallum. 18. Mr. Side?/.] Your opening remark particularly struck me as being a wholesale condemnation of the work being done by the University as hitherto carried on, and I want to know whether you intended that impression to be conveyed?— Well, I should say that I would condemn very strongly the perpetuation of the existing system. I think the University system was in accordance with the ideas of the time when it was instituted, but that we are already twenty or thirty years behind the times in the matter of the development of university work. 19. Are you forming your opinion on past work upon the results attained? —I made no reference at all to past work that had been done. T spoke entirely of the method of university education at present in vogue in. this country. 20. Do you wish it to be understood that the University, so far as its work has gone up to date, has not been 'successful? —T should be the last person to raise that question, Mr. Chairman.