1— 9b.

12

D. McLABtN.

23. Cases of grievances or fancied grievances, where they have "downed tools' without consulting the secretary of the union, and where other unions have been dragged in?— Yes, that has occurred within my experience quite a number of times on the Wellington wharf. 24. It occurred in the case of the railway men in 1890 and also whin the storemen came out? —Yes; and that has a distinct relation to clause 138—"in the cast' of an intention to strike on the part of ten or more workers," ami not by the organization at all. There the Bill makes a suggestion which would mean the disruption of the unions, ami would lead to internecine warfare, and to little groups getting out "on their own " every now and then. That would be a most dangerous thing. 25. The union would have to bear the brunt of a trouble for which it was not constitutionallyresponsible ?—Yes. 2G. Mr. Okey.] it was suggested by Mi. Carey that the President of the Court should be a man who would keep himself closely in touch with the workers?— What Mr. Carey said was —and I agree with him —that the Judge should be a man with some knowledge of sociologyami a man of affairs —that is probably how it might be defined —a man mixing with the people in various ways, and who was in touch with business, trade, commerce, and industrial affairs right round, and with the workers. He could not have that experience so as to judge equitably between the workers and the employers unless he knew all this ami came into contact with the workers as well as with the other side. 27. That is the point 1 want made clear, because 1 take it thai there are more than the workers concerned in these matters. Take the arrangement made with the shipping companies : under the last agreement we had to put up with increased freights. I think the people who pay should be considered?—l agree that there are mote than the special employers ami employees concerned : there is the great consuming public. 28. They have to be considered in the future in the appointment of a Judge?— Yes. 29. Mr. Atmore.] You mean that the President should be a student of sociology--that he should be chosen, amongst his other qualifications, for his thorough knowledge of social questions? —Yes. as far as you can get a comprehensive knowledge of sociology. May I point out that in Great Britain, where they have to deal with some very large disputes under their system of voluntary- Conciliation Boards, in many instances they have not chosen a legal gentleman at all as arbitrator, but have chosen men who have had wide experience in industrial affairs, and who have a sort of mastership, one might say, in sociology and the principles of industrial evolution. 30. Mr. Glover.] Would it not be better to appoint Judges conversant with the industrial matters of this country instead of a person who has not that knowledge?—l think I have prettywell answered that question already. 31. Mr. If i nil marsh.] You have read the Canadian Act on which this is based?— Yes. 32. You are aware that there is a statistician appointed under that Act, who attends all these conferences between masters and men, and he supplies expert information upon matters as far as he is able to. That is a very good idea, is it not?— Yes. 1 may say this with regard to the general settlement of disputes so as to prevent strikes and lockouts, I have argued before and have given evidence on the subject. In my judgment the Court should be constituted of permanent representatives from each side —employers and workers—and. in addition, practical assessors in each case. 33. Mr. Grenfell (representing Employers' Association.] You are aware that if unions are registered under the Arbitration Act individual members, as well as the unions as a body, are liable to- penalties under the law, whereas individual members of unions not registered are not liable?— Yes, I am aware of that, and also of this: that to make the individual members liable under the present conditions of society for strikes that occur is simply farcical —utterly farcical. The individual member is very often a poor unfortunate person who in many cases is simply squeezed into a position that he cannot get out of one way or the other, and you propose to add to his burden by putting a legal penalty on him. Why, the thing is stupid in the extreme.

Hon. J. Barr, M.L.C., examined. (No. 4.) 1. The Chairman.] What bodies do you represent. Mr. Barr?—l represent, in the first place, the Canterbury United Building Trades Committee, the Hotel Employees' Union of Christchurch; 1 am also empowered by the Stonemasons' Conference, held in Wellington some two weeks ago, to represent them. Ihe main matters dealt with pertain to the Bill as a whole, and probably the attention was not given to this particular part of the Bill —Part Vl—that might have been given had we foreseen the trouble that has lately occurred. Generally, I was instructed that we do not agree with the principle of this Part VI, unless under the following exceptions The bodies I represent are unanimously of opinion that the principle contained in Part VI should apply to those industries at the very least that are mentioned under clause 9 of the 1908 Amendment Act. I refer to what are practically utility industries—that is. industries which the general public depend upon for their well-being and the disorganizing of which brings trouble, and, as we know-, misery on all sections of the public, who at the moment have no power whatever to control or interfere in an industrial dispute. We consider that the industries mentioned in clause 9 of the principal Act ought to be added to, as we want people such as wharf labourers, who are handling material such as they do handle, the necessities of life—coal-miners are not included in that part, it only includes the distribution of coal—that they should be taken under the provisions that I refer to. We understand, of course, that the principle underlying Part VI is the principle of the Canadian Act, only this goes further, inasmuch as it refers to all industries, willy-nilly. T think we should take that principle and make it imperative that