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E. R. WILLIAMS.

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able-bodied citizen was required to serve, what would be your position?—My position at the present time is that Ido not see the possibility. I want you to recognize that. 66. Supposing the danger did arise, would you then be willing to do your part in defending the country or would you still refuse? —My position is that I now know sufficient to realize that such a thing is an absolute impossibility. 67. We know that throughout the whole world wars do take place. The whole world is armed. Supposing such a thing were to take place and the Militia were called out, would you be prepared to assist your fellow-men to defend the country?—lf an invader came here to destroy our country, Yes; but I cannot drillj I cannot fall into the system because I recognize that such a thing is an utter impossibility. 68. I think you are a Volunteer? —I was a member once in England. 69. Hon. Mr. Callan.] When you were brought before Mr. Bailey he said to you, " You can get counsel," during some part of the case? —I do not remember that during the case. 70. Did he make that statement before or after he delivered judgment? —He made two statements with regard to counsel. Before the case was tried he refused us the counsel; after the case was tried he said we could get counsel by writing. 71. You are sure of that? —Absolutely. 72. And after he had pronounced his sentence, then lie said " You can get counsel "? —Yes. Mr. Russell: To clear up the most important part of the inquiry, might I ask whether the Minister has received any report as to what took place in Court and whether Mr. Bailey admits that these men did ask for counsel and it was refused. Hon. Mr. Allen : There is a conflict of evidence about this. Mr. Russell: Might I suggest that it would be a fair thing if this question was put to them, so that they could meet the statement either with an admission of its truth or with a denial. Hon. Mr. Allen: They have been asked and denied it. [Document read by the Hon. Mr. Allen.] Mr. Russell: Then, do I understand from the Minister that this part of the regulations gazetted on the Ist August to be posted up in places of detention was not posted because these regulations had not been gazetted? Hon. Mr. Allen: They were posted up as far as I know. They were read out when they came in. Mr. Russell: There were three foolscap pages of regulations; you can hardly expect men to know them from simply hearing them read once. Mr. Worrall: They were not posted up.

Tuesday, 14th October, 1913. Hon. Mr. Allen: I propose to call Colonel Collins, the Adjutant-General, to give some evidence upon these Ripa Island cases, but before doing that I desire to put in this telegraphic correspondence about the regulations being posted up, and I will call some further evidence about it from Colonel Collins. The correspondence is as follows : — " Parliament Buildings, Bth October, 1913. —Lieutenant Mac Donald, Lyttelton.—Were detention regulations posted up so that offenders could see them? Reply direct Minister of Defence, urgent. —Colonel Collins." " Lyttelton, Bth October, 1913. —Hon. Minister of Defence, Wellington.—Regulations posted up in detention-rooms. Frequently destroyed, but replaced as early as possible.—Lieutenant Mac Donald." " Parliament Buildings, Bth October, 1913.—Lieutenant Mac Donald, Defence Office, Lyttelton.—Were the regulations first issued posted up at the time of issue or subsequently; and, if so, where and when? And were those in detention informed of the nature of the regulations?— J. Allen." " Lyttelton, Bth October, 1913.—H0n. Minister of Defence, Wellington.—Yes, regulations first isued were posted up at first and replaced from time to time when found defaced or when destroyed. Gazetted regulations replaced first issue as soon as received. These also have been replaced from time to time. Regulations hung up in barrack-rooms. All men have had regulations read over to them and explained either by self or non-commissioned officer when first admitted. —Lieutenant Mac Donald .'' Lieut.-Colonel the Hon. Richard Henn Collins, Adjutant-General, New Zealand Military Forces, examined. (No. 5.) 1. Hon. Mr. Allen.'] Did you go down to Ripa Island under instructions by the General Officer Commanding to inquire into these troubles at Ripa Island?— Yes, sir. 2. First of all, about the posting-up of the regulations. You heard the telegrams read from Lieutenant Mac Donald : have you any further information to guide the Committee on the point? —Yes, sir. After the last meeting I wrote to Lieutenant Mac Donald for further information on the subject of the posting-up of the regulations, and have received the following memorandum from him. It is addressed to Headquarters, Canterbury Military District, Christchurch, under date 11th October, 1913, and was sent on to us. It reads,' — " I have to report that the Detention Barrack Regulations issued under cover of memo. No. 13/1 of 15/4/13 were posted up in barrack-room where men were confined. As these were from time to time defaced or destroyed they were replaced, in all, probably about seven or eight

3—l. 7a.