I,— 9a.

W.jH.tiWESTBEOOKE.]

4. Will you please tell us your opinion of it in your own way?—l would like, first of all, if you will permit me, to give you some idea of the amount of thought lam representing here. First of all, I have a telegram from the 'Southland Trades and Labour Council, signed by the secretary, Mr. Corson, as follows: " Invercargill.—Southland's authority re manifesto; heartily indorse same." There is a telegram from Mr. Johnston, secretary Trades Council, Nelson: "Authorise you to act for us." I have another telegram from the Otago Council: " Otago Council authorise your Council represent them amendments Arbitration Act.—Breen, Secretary." I have also a telegram from Auckland: "Auckland Trades Council authorises your Council to represent us before the Labour Bills Committee. —Arthur Rosser, Secretary." In addition, I have a letter which came j'esterday from the Auckland Trades and Labour Council: " I am directed to forward to you a copy of the following resolution, passed unanimously at a special meeting of the above Council: ' That this Council most strongly protests against the passing into law of the Industrial Conciliation and Arbitration Act Amendment Bill, 1907, and supports and adopts the manifesto recently issued by the Wellington Trades and Labour Council, in which reasons are explicitly given, from a unionist standpoint, as to why the Bill should not become law; and that copies of this resolution be forwarded to the Hon. the Minister of Labour, the Chairman of the Labour Bills Committee, and the Wellington Trades and Labour Council. Also, that the Wellington Trades and Labour Council be given full authority to appear for this Council and represent it before the Labour Bills Committee.—l have, &c, Arthur Rosser, Secretary." I have also a letter from the Hawke's Bay Trades and Labour Council: "Dear Sir, —A meeting of delegates of .all the tradeunions in Napier was held in the Trades Hall on Friday, the 16th instant, to consider the amendments to the Industrial Conciliation and Arbitration Bill which are now before the House of Representatives. The following resolutions were carried, and the secretary was instructed to forward copies of the resolutions to the Hon. J. A. Miller, Minister of Labour, also a oopy to your Council. —I remain, &c, J. M. Langley, Secretary. The chief objection to the proposed Industrial Council is that, while the employers' representatives are independent of the workers, the workers' representatives would, on the dissolution of the Council, find themselves dependent for their livelihood on the persons with whom they had been contending in dispute. The united wish of the workers here is that the Conciliation Board should have power to make awards binding. Clauses 22 to 28: The proposal to allow Magistrates the power of enforcing awards is objected to on the ground that it removes the matter from the tribunal especially created to deal with it, and places it in the hands of one man, who has far more power than is safe or right. Moreover, the proposal would lead to increased cost through appeals. Clause 30: Providing for the deduction of fines from wages is unfair, inasmuch as it impounds one-fourth of the workers' total income, whereas the heaviest penalty imposed on employer leaves him practically unhampered. Moreover, it is in contravention of the Truck Act. Clause 45: It seeks to destroy an inherent right, and is contrary to common law. Clause 47: Is regarded as a half-hearted pretence at preference to unionists, and cannot by any means be accepted by the workers as a substitute for preference. The unionist worker does not want the outsider's .money, but wants the outsider to come in. Clause 50: Is regarded as dangerous and injurious. Clause 51: Interferes with the lawful right of unions to manage their own funds. There are unions which it would seriously cripple. Clause 53: Strongly opposed. Would cause the loss of many of the best and most trusted union officers, and very seriously hamper them in the conduct of their business." 5. Mr. Arnold.] Is that last communication from Napier?— Yes. My own evidence is mainly in connection with the smaller unions in the Wellington District, I have been a member of the Organizing Committee for many years in Wellington, and my duties consisted very largely in organizing small unions. We are approached by men working in an industry, who show that their treatment is unfair, that the wages paid them are not sufficient to support them comfortably. We generally wait until one or two of the men approach us, and then we call a meeting of those engaged in the industry. And here I would emphasize the fact that we have given up advertising preliminary meetings of unions, because we found that in the smaller industries the men are actually afraid to come and attend the meeting. In two instances we found, after we had got them together and they had decided to form a union, they, did not come along to thfe advertised meeting. Well, if that is the case, if men are so afraid to be connected with a union, I would ask the Committee what chance would there be of getting three men from such an industry to represent them faithfully and do their duty on an Industrial Council such as is proposed in this Bill. One of the first difficulties we meet with in the formation of a union, after we have got the members together, is to get officers for it. We find that in some unions it is almost impossible to get officers. I have in my mind one union—the Aerated-water Workers, recently before the Court—from which we could not get any one to take office, and at last the Trades Council officered the union, giving them their president and secretary; and then, when the matter was brought before the Board and the Court the men were afraid to give evidence, and we had to subpoena them. Then one of the men, who was to a large extent the framer of the demands for shorter hours and higher wages, when asked in Court whether he was satisfied with the conditions, said, he was. I believe it is impossible to get men to form these Industrial Councils who will do justice to their fellow-workers. I have to make these remarks although they reflect upon the men, but they are absolutely true, and can be proved easily. Another matter I wish to speak about in connection with these unions is this: In Wellington I think there are a total of sixty-three unions. lam not sure whether they are all registered or not, because many have Been recently formed. Out of these sixty-three there are eight unions which have less than twenty-five members. There are twenty-three with less than fifty members. So you will see that the labour movement is to a large extent dependent on the small unions. I wish also to give evidence on my experience as to the probability of a small union getting any advantage from a voluntary agreement which may be brought before the_ Board or Court. Just recently I have had to conduct cases for five unions, and with the exception of one

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