H.—34

22

April, 1905. The first intimation re this voucher that he had received from Mr. Willis was merely an impression he had gathered. Willis had told him nothing, bub he gathered that he (Willis) knew something—that there was something behind it. Then he had not decided to tackle the matter at all. His recollection was that Willis gave him no information when he first spoke to him. He had not asked Willis for any general information ;he heard the rumour that went round, and the rumour was limited naturally to Volunteer officers. He had heard the amount of £76 4s. 9d. mentioned. The conversation referred to on page 13 of Mr. Willis's evidence was not the first conversation. In the first, Willis had given him no definite information, witness had merely gathered that Willis knew something about the matter —either from his manner or in some way. He thought his first communication was the extract handed in. He could not say whether the conversation took place before the extract reached him or subsequent. He thought the extract was first; it was in answer to a letter from himself. He would accept Willis's statements (as read by Mr. Stringer) in re this matter. The statement made by Mr. Willis on page 19 was probably correct; he himself was not clear as to the number of the conversations, their purport or sequence. He thought the inquiry addressed to him as to his "side" in the Seddon-Taylor case was irrelevant, but be had no objection to saying that his sympathies were with Mr. Taylor. Oh, no ;he certainly had not got the information at that time from Willis re the voucher ; if he had it would certainly have been used in the action. He was quite certain he did not have this information at the time of that trial. The Board explained that the point was relevant merely as a memory aid. Witness (to Mr. Stringer) : He had thought the conversation was in December, 1904, when he made his speech in the House. His memory certainly was not accurate on that point. The Hansard " revise " he had spoken of was sent down while the debate was proceeding, and he had not considered its correction very carefully. He would not be guided by newspaper reports in any case. " Could not " give the " source of his information " meant inability, not unwillingness. No doubt it was possible, from Mr. Stringer's point of view, that Willis was the source of this information. Witness knew himself; the source was —common rumour. No doubt he got it from somebody—rumours could not be picked up floating in space. Willis and he were intimate and their interests allied ; they would both take a keen interest in such matters as this improper payment. It was possible Willis gave him the information ;it was possible the Premier did so :it was all a question of possibilities. He would not admit it was "probable" Willis told him the rumour in December, 1904. The debate was on the 28th July; he left Wellington on Saturday, was in Christchurch all day Sunday, did not see Willis till Monday morning, when passing the Post-office, and Willis came out. He would swear that he went home, and did not put his foot outside of it all day Sunday. Willis came out of Post-oflice and spoke to him in the Square on Monday. Witness asked Willis if that was the Sneddon voucher, and Willis replied affirmatively ; and witness advised him to go inside—not to stop talking to him. He had written out apologies for the Premier and his son, and went to have a chat with Mr. Taylor before despatching them. They discussed the matter to some extent, and then, at Mr. Taylor's suggestion, he decided to consult Willis, and asked the latter to come to his office at five o'clock that afternoon (Monday). Willis said : " Don't send the telegrams; that Sneddon voucher is right, but there is a Seddon voucher besides." He did not think Willis promised to make a further search; he would have known at the time that would be fruitless, because the particulars were not in the office —only the amount and number. He had had no more numbers and amounts from Willis; he was not "taking" any more numbers. After receiving the affidavits— he could not say whether at his own (witness's) suggestion or that of somebody else —it was decided as a safeguard that Willis should make a copy of the details that were in the book in the office, and so when he said in the House that he believed he had " the right number now," he had in mind the fact of this list having been made. He knew there was a copy in existence, and that if they took this list out of the Christchurch Post-office they (witness and his friends) still had a check on the number; and he was perfectly satisfied then—and was now —-that the destruction of the record would not matter. He knew that a list was made of the whole of the vouchers in the Christchurch Post-office. He had not received any information between the 9th August and date of making first charge. He had not the list then. He knew that Willis was to make a copy of the list. As soon as the matter assumed the dimensions it did, they knew there would be an inquiry, and said to one another that it was possible the record might be tampered with. It might be sent for from Wellington, and so Willis decided for his own protection to make a copy of all the record-dates and amounts. He would not like to say it was decided in their conversation on Monday : it certainly was decided some time that Willis should take a copy of these numbers and retain them for further information—not necessarily with the idea of preventing fraud on the part of the Department, but as a safeguard. They wished to have a copy. As a matter of fact, then, when he made his speech he had no other number, excepting the list, and he knew the number must be amongst them. (To the Board) : The idea of the affidavits emanated entirely from Mr. Taylor, and without witness's knowledge he [instructed Mr. Salter to make them. It was Mr. Taylor who communicated with Willis and the others and asked them to go to Mr. Salter's office. Witness had not told Willis to go to Mr. Salter ;he knew it was going to be done. Witness supposed he and Mr. Taylor were in agreement about the matter; and although he had no exact recollection of discussing the affidavits with Mr. Taylor and Mr. Willis, he would assent to what Mr. Willis had said about the point (page 12 of Willis's evidence—" With regard to the morning," &o.) He believed then and now that there was a Seddon voucher. As to the reason for getting the affidavits at all: they knew it would be certain destruction for these men to come straight out into the open, and the taking of the affidavits established his and Mr. Taylor's bona fides without disclosing the names of the persons concerned, Very probably Willis was right when he swore that he made the affidavit "at the request of Messrs. Taylor and Fisher." He had no particular