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242. That is already allowed ?—Yes. Besides the moneys allowed I would allow £25 for special instruction in woodwork, £25 for cooking, £50 for drawing, and £50 for singing. That makes an expenditure of £2,520, but I find I have £60 to spare. I did not notice that the house allowances were not included in the allowances under the Teachers' Salaries Act. 243. We understand that for that school all the money is now provided either by vote or by law 1— Yes. 244. With respect to the smaller schools, there would be some modification of that, would there not ? You suggest they should be smaller ?—lt would still absorb the whole of the grant. The only difference would be that under the Public-school Teachers' Salaries Act. 245. The cost of the training colleges would be four times the amount you have mentioned ?— You cannot say that it would be four times that, because more than half of that is provided to teach those teachers under the Public-school Teachers' Salaries Act —a good deal more than half of it. The only extra cost that you would have to provide would be the £700, and I have not included students' allowances. 246. Mr. Hardy. ,] The proposal is to go on as we are doing in Christchurch and Dunedin for a time, and then to establish training colleges at Auckland and Wellington. Would you have the existing colleges brought down to 250 ? —I would let the arrangements stand as they are. I proposed to the Minister that they should stand for three years. In three years the matter would have to be revised in any case. 247. The Chairman.] As to the two new ones, we made a recommendation that they should consist of 250. You still adhere to that opinion, I suppose ?—Yes, I think 250 is a good number. 248. Mr. Hardy.] My impression is, as we are able to do this work, and do it well, in a school of 400, that there would be no harm to have a school of 420 at Auckland and Wellington, and by that means economize the teaching ?—I will tell you what the objection is to making the school larger. You must not forget your duties to the children in the school, and if you have a school of 420 the man who is the acting-headmaster—who is also the method master —will have to devote more of his attention to the individual children. 249. The Chairman.] Would it not be well for us to experiment with a smaller school in the new districts and test the one against the other ? —A good many experiments have been made all over the world. 250. And the tendency has been to have smaller schools ?—-Yes. 251. Mr. Fowlds.] How would the salaries work out with the smaller school, because of course you would not have the same fundamental salaries ?—The figures are the same for a 250 school, but you would not require such a big staff for the smaller number of children. 252. The Chairman.] Would you put the director down at the same amount ?—Yes. The Chairman : Will you submit us a return showing the staffiing and salaries for a school of 250 and for one of 420 ? Mr. Hardy: Will you also show on the return the cost per head of the children at the school in each case ? 253. Mr. Fowlds.} Mr. Hardy wants to make out that it will cost more per head of the children attending a school of 250 than it will per head of the children attending a school of 420 ?—lt would, a fraction. 254. Mr. Hardy.] I want to see that fraction ? —The difference is not much when you pass 200 in attendance. I will let you have the return. 255. The Chairman.] Have you anything further to enlighten us upon, Mr. Hogben, or do you think you have given us what you can about this matter ? —Of course I am prepared to give any other facts that I can, but I do not know that I wish to say anything more. 256. Are there any other facts really pertinent to the question that you think we have not got a grip of ? —I think I have made clear the connection between the pupil-teacher regulations and the training colleges. Approximate Cost of Paper. —Preparation, not given; printing (1,675 copies), £10 14s.

By Authority: John Mackay, Government Printer, Wellington.—l9o4. Price 9d.]

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