MR. TBEGEAE.]

49

1.—9.

Friday, 11th September, 1903. Mr. Edwabd Teegear examined. (No. 38.) 1. The Chairman.} What is your position, Mr. Tregear? —I am Secretary for Labour and Chief Inspector of Factories. 2. Have you seen the Shops and Offices Bill which we are considering?— Yes. 3. What have you to say with regard to it ? Mr. Tregear : I would like, first of all, to explain my position with regard to the Bill. I was instructed by the Minister of Labour to bring down this Bill exactly as it left the House last session, with the exception of a provision for a general Saturday half-holiday. I obeyed those instructions ; but there are several things in which I think the Bill might be improved, and 1 beg most respectfully to be allowed to offer a few suggestions to the Committee on these points. The Bill as brought down was essentially a consolidation Bill, and was one which is very much needed. There have been three amendments to the Shops and Shop-assistants Act of 1894. It was amended in 1895, again in 1896, and again in 1901, so that it makes it very difficult for a layman to read the Acts as they stand. It was therefore desirable to consolidate them. The first point to which I would call the attention of the Committee is in section 2, the interpretation clause. Under the definition of " office " these words occur: "or professional business or calling carried on therein by the occupier thereof." The Committee has already had before it the evidence of lawyers' clerks with regard to this provision, and I may say, in respect to the departmental view of the matter, that we never understood that professional men and their offices should be placed on the same lines as commercial men and their offices. The work in the offices of architects, lawyers., and other professional men is very different from that which is carried on in an ordinary commercial office. The work in a professional office sometimes necessitates the employee there working all night, and it is made up to them at another time. So far as we have been able to ascertain, the good feeling between professional employers and their employees has never been broken, and it seems to me quite unnecessary that professional offices, such as those of lawyers and architects, should be brought under the provisions of the Act. Again, in section 2, under the definition of " shop," at the end of the subsection these words occur: " but does not include a warehouse doing exclusively a wholesale business." I have no special suggestion to make with regard to that subsection, but I would bring under the notice of the Committee the fact that it is very difficult to distinguish what are exclusively wholesale businesses. For instance, in country districts there are many places where the grain-stores supply the farmers, and those stores supply the farmers with materials when shops which supply the same materials are closed. I think that is hardly right, and if these wholesale stores supply materials under those circumstances they should be brought under the definition of "shops." In a place like Ashburton. for instance, if a person wants fencing-wire he can get it at a wholesale warehouse when shops which are selling the same material are closed compulsorily. I thought I would mention that fact, because it was brought under the notice of the Committee by one of the Auckland gentlemen who gave evidence with regard to offices being closed on a different day from shops. I would also like to point out that the clerical work which is defined under the heading " shop-assistant " does not refer to a man who is working in an office, or to clerical work in connection with a factory or shop. That work is excluded by the latter part of the subsection defimr.g " office." To put it in a concrete form, Kirkcaldie and Stains, of Wellington, drapers, have an office in their shop, and if the drapers close at a certain time, or on a certain day, that office has to close as well as the shop. The wide use of" office " leads to considerable difficulty, but that difficulty will be cured by this Bill, which provides that it shall not include clerical work carried on in a factory or shop. Section 3is a vital section of the Bill. 1 may mention first that subsection (a) provides that shop-assistants shall not be employed for more than fifty-two hours a week, excluding meal-times. I think that in most of the shops—certainly the respectable shops—they work very little more than forty-eight hours. I want to ask the Committee to consider whether it is wise to fix longer hours—whether it is necessary. The fifty-two hours should be inclusive of meal-times. In factories women work forty-five hours a week. A great deal of the work in factories executed by women is done sitting down, and it is not in many cases more severe than the work which some shop-girls do. I would therefore ask the Committee to consider whether fifty-two hours is not too long. Section 12 of the Act of 1894 provides, " A woman, or a person under eighteen years of age, shall not work for hire or maintenance in or about any shop, nor at any work in connection with the shop, for a longer period than fifty-two hours, excluding meal-times, in any one week, nor for a longer period than nine hours and a half, excluding meal-times, in any one day, except on one day in each week, when eleven and a half hours' work may be done." If we divide the days up we shall find that there are five whole days and one half-holiday, and on one of the whole days a woman is allowed to work 11-| hours, exclusive of meal-times—this is too long. Under the present definition there is no time fixed after which they are bound to start work, nor any fixed hour at which they are to stop work. Under the Factories Act women work between a certain hour in the morning and a certain hour in the evening, but there is no such provision in the Shops Act. I may say that, although in the best class of shops they only work forty-eight hours a week, there are shops in which it is the practice to stretch the hours of work wrongly, and these are the shops with which we have to deal. In my report of 1900 I made these remarks : " In one part " —it is not confined to one part now —"of New Zealand a bad practice has crept in of evading the hours to which women and girls are limited to serving in shops by working them in alternate gangs, as ' watches' are formed on board of a ship. One party of girls goes on at 8 a.m. and works till 11, returns at 1 p.m. and works till 5, returns at 7 and works till 9 p.m. Another party of girls comes on in the same shop at 10 and works till 1 p.m., returns at 3 and works till 7, returns at 9 and works till 11. None of the girls work more than the legal nine hours and a half, but these are dragged out and extended beyond anything contemplated in 7—l. 9.