L—lα,

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some control other than that at the present time ?—Yes ; I have already explained that they think the present position reflects upon their ability to behave themselves. 152. Mr. Lawry.] You referred to the action of Mr. Cullen before he was Inspector; do you approve of the method he adopted for procuring convictions? —I do not think I should like to do as he did, but it is the only method you can adopt to get a conviction. 153. Do you not object to that system ?—I object to it personally. 154. Do you think it is justifiable on any ground ? Do you not think that a man who would tell a lie to get evidence will tell a bigger lie for a conviction ?—He might. 155. You say that there have been thirty summonses issued ; are we to take that as evidence that there were thirty people summoned ?—No ; last time there were fifty summonses and only fifteen accused —several summonses against one person. 156. Is it not a fact that sly-grog selling in the Eohe-Potae has spread throughout the length and breadth of the country ?—Yes. 157. Well, supposing that the Natives and Europeans decided in favour of liquor in the country, there would be four or five hotels —one at Kawhia, Otorohanga, Te Kuiti, and Mokau; that is, instead of having fifty sly-grog shops, you would have four or five hotels. If there were an hotel establishment somewhere at Kawhia, do you not suppose the hotel would be a great check on the sly-grog selling?—lt would, in a way. 158. Would it not be to the publican's interest to put a check on sly-grog sellers generally?— Yes ; but I expect sly-grog sellers would take care to buy their liquor from him. 159. You wish to make it quite clear to the Committee that Europeans should be allowed to take liquor into the King-country in small quantities for their own individual use ?—I do not propose any alteration in the law in that respect. 160. Do you not think that if hotels were established, especially at Otorohanga, that you would not see such drunken scenes when the chief Land Court was sitting as you saw at Kihikihi ?—Perhaps not. 161. Do you remember when the Native Land Court was sitting at Cambridge?— Yes ; I have been there. 162. You will remember reading about the fearful scenes of intoxication there, and who was responsible ?—I know there were licensed houses there. 163. Do you not think it was the " land-sharks " grabbing the land from the Natives, and bribing them with drink ? Were they not bribed with drink and bad tobacco ?—1 think some of them turned their money into liquor. 164. Mr. Lang.] I want to speak now only of the question of the Waikato. When you were speaking of the population of Natives in the King-country, was that in the Waikato electorate? —No ; I was referring to the prohibited portion of the Waikato. 165. What is the Native population, roughly speaking, of the part of the King-country included in the Waikato electorate? —About one thousand seven hundred. 166. Between the European and Maori population I suppose there is not a great deal of difference ?—Not much difference, I should think. 167. You spoke of the European population as about two thousand, and, in reply to another question, spoke of a floating population. Have you any idea as to how many men are working on the railway-works ? —Well, Mr. Hall-Jones said three hundred ; I should have thought that there was nearly four hundred. Hon. Mr. Hall-Jones.] Six months ago there was not one hundred. 168. Mr. Lawry.] You could not say whether there are more Natives in the licensed part than in the prohibited part of the Waikato ?—Eoughly, I should say they are fairly evenly divided. 169. I suppose the King-country is bound to become settled by Europeans, and will be placed in the same position as the other part of the electorate —that is, a vote should be taken on the whole of the Waikato, the same as in any other part of the colony ? —The vote is now taken in the King-country the same as in the rest of the colony. There is no doubt but that the other part will always vote against an increase. 170. If a vote was taken, would you confine it to the Europeans, or the Maoris and Europeans both ?—Well, the Maoris are as much interested as the Europeans. 171. There is a good deal of sly-grog selling going on in the King-country ? —-Yes. 172. Have you ever heard of any sly-grog selling in the licensed part of the Waikato ?—No, I do not think I have. 173. The tendency of the granting of licenses, then, would be to do away with sly-grog selling ?— Undoubtedly. If we had licenses there would be less sly-grog selling. 174. Mr. Golvin.] Do you think that people unacquainted with the King-country can give a fair opinion of the matter of sly-grog selling in the King-country ? For instance, do you think that people living on the West Coast, where they are nearly all Good Templars, and so forth, could do so ? Can Mr. Isitt give a fair expression of opinion ?—Yes, if the facts are put before them fairly. 175. You have already stated that the prohibition question has been made bigger than it really was. Have you seen what the Prohibitionists have written lately ?— I have not seen what the Prohibitionists have written for some months. 176. Do you think a person living in the King-country can give a far better opinion than people living in other parts of the colony ?—Yes. 177. Then the petitioners from Christchurch, and Dunedin, and other parts of the colony should not have much knowledge of what is going on in the King-country ? —I suppose their action arises from a desire to protect the Native race. 178. The Chairman.] Do you know, Mr. Ellis, whether the Natives really have prevented the introduction of liquor at any of their Land Courts, and the introduction of liquor to their tangis?—l do not know about their Land Courts ; they have a tangi sometimes.