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1. The Chairman.) Then, in your opinion, even if the number of police were increased in the King-country, it would be impossible to suppress this sly-grog selling : that is your conclusion after your investigation of the matter ?—Yes. My knowledge of the King-country covers about twelve years. I have been up and down the King-country, and I was sent up there specially during three weeks to investigate. 2. You say that these convictions are simply advertisements in effect, because people find out who are selling the grog, and then know where to get it ?—Quite so. 3. Mr. Colvin.] Did you say that you were sent up into the King-country on this trip of investigation by a temperance society ? Did I understand you aright ?—Yes; I was sent up by the Te Aute College Students' Association. 4. Do the Maoris themselves indulge in this sly-grog selling?—Oh, yes; the Maoris are the worst offenders in this. 5. I understood it was the white people ? —Oh, no ; the Maoris. 6. I thought that as the white population increased they took in the grog and supplied the Maoris ?—Well, it is the progress of settlement that induces sly-grog selling. 7. You believe it better to have hotels under proper control than the present state of affairs? —Yes. It would be better to have the sale of liquor under control. I think it would be a change for the better. 8. Mr. Lawry.] Do you remember a public meeting on this question held at Te Awamutu ?— Yes ; I had been there a week then. 9. The result of your investigations in the King-country has modified the opinions you expressed at Te Awamutu ?—Yes. 10. Mr. Hall.] Are you well acquainted with the King-country ?—Yes. 11. Are you acquainted also with the whole of its frontier?— Yes; I am very familiar with those parts, and about Kihikihi. 12. Are there any hotels adjacent to the frontier ?—Yes; there is one at Alexandra, and one at Kihikihi. 13. Did your investigation lead you to conclude that these hotels are frequently visited by Natives ?—While I was about Kihikihi for some ten days there were very few Natives there, though there are two Native settlements close by. 14. Have you any idea where the Natives in the King-country get their supplies of liquor from ?—lt is sent up from Auckland. They get their liquor for the tangis from Kihikihi. 15. And your investigations led you to conclude- ?—That we must choose between two evils. 16. And in your opinion the lesser evil is to license houses for the sale of liquor?— Yes; the lesser evil is to bring the liquor under control. 17. You prefer to say that you had better buy the liquor in the King-country itself than have to procure it from outside surreptitiously ?—Yes, I think so. 18. Mr. Lang.} You think it would be impossible to keep down sly-grog selling in the Kingcountry? —Yes, I do think so, as things are at present. 19. What is the proportion of Europeans to Natives in the King-country at the present time, so far as you can say ?—I suppose it would be, since the arrival of many new settlers, about five to seven, and including the whole of the Eohe Potae Block, about five to nine. 20. I understood you to say that you knew the Waikato ? —Yes. 21. Could you tell the Committee, approximately, the number of Natives in the Waikato electorate between Kihikihi and Huntly ?—I suppose quite a thousand. 22. What I want to arrive at, as near as possible, is the number of Natives there are in what may be called the settled part of the Waikato electorate, where there are licensed houses, and the number of Natives where there are no licenses. Can you tell us that ?— [Having referred to a map showing the boundaries of the Waikato electorate, the witness said :] I think there would be about four thousand Natives in the portion of the land where licenses existed, and about eighteen hundred in the prohibited portion of the electorate. The Maori population is pretty thick about the Waikato Heads. The settlements are very close together, and some of them are very large. 23. I think you said there was more drink in the King-country than outside ?—Yes. 24. Do you know the date that you visited Te Awamutu ?—lt was about the first week in June, 1900. 25. And the evidence you collected was for the most part after that date?— Yes. 26. Mr. Colvin.] I suppose the temperance party think that the quality of the liquor sold by the sly-grog sellers is not so good as that which is obtainable at licensed houses ?—"Yes; that is what the party think. 27. The Chairman.] You did not interview any Europeans up there in the course of your investigations?— Yes, I did; and among others I saw the Magistrate. 28. Do you know a Mr. Ellis ?—No; but I heard that he was away at Eotorua unwell. I saw Mr. Jackson, S.M., also a Mr. Dyer, and Mr. Wilkinson, the Government land-purchaser. 29. What was their general opinion ?—Their opinion generally was that the country would be better off with licensed houses. 30. As you have already expressed it, of two evils choose the lesser ?—Yes, that is so. 31. Mr. B. McKenzie.] You say there are some four thousand Natives in the licensed portion of the Waikato electorate, and about eighteen hundred in the part which is under the prohibition ? —Yes. 32. When you say that there is more drinking in the prohibited area, do you mean to say that the eighteen hundred Natives drank more than the four thousand ? —I mean to say that the eighteen hundred drank more in proportion. The hotels at Kihikihi have not been so well patronised since the Government stopped the killing of the rabbits.