G.—2a

24

Hunia. Bemember the £29 7s. paid to Stevens in 1874. I think this amount is fairly chargeable to Horowhenua. Ngatiraukawa insisted on remaining on the land, although it had been awarded to Muaupoko, and Hunia burnt their houses in order to get rid of them. I think the £100 paid to Cash for defending Hunia was justifiable on the same ground. £150 in 1886 :I am not clear about that amount, but I may have spent it. In 1890 I spent £325 for food and rent for Ngatipariri and for their railway-fares. It was expended for No. 3as well as for No. 11. The £200 paid to Mr. A. McDonald was for clerical assistance and briefing our case. The £500 was paid to Barnicoat for legal advice and assistance in connection with No. 11. Ido not know anything about the £200 paid to Donald Fraser for fees and expenses. Warena would know. Ido not know about the payment to Mr. Barnicoat of £400 in 1891, or the payment of £150 to McDonald. I am not clear about the £325 lent by Mr. Donald Fraser. Ido not remember the payment of £100 to Barnicoat in 1893 in connection with petitions to Parliament. I remember paying the £75 for witnesses' expenses. I remember the £620 paid for legal expenses. I paid Donald Fraser and Warena over £300 of it. I cannot give particulars of the sum of £495 paid for expenses in connection with Horowhenua Commission. I paid £170 to conductors and £47 for food. I cannot say whether interest should be charged on the amounts expended. The £170 I paid conductors and the £40 for food for Ngatipariri are included in the £495. I know of the claim of £34,900 against Kemp. I do not know whether it is a reasonable claim. I believe Kemp has received £13,000 odd from Horowhenua. Mr. Stevens drew up the claim. One Maori chief would not demand interest from another, but this account was made up by a European. Henare te Apatari: No questions. To Mr. McDonald : I was not present when the accounts were made up by Stevens and Warena. Ido not remember whether I saw them before they were mentioned in Parliament. Kemp gave the first lease of Horowhenua in 1874. I heard Makere say this morning that she heard Warena say that the land was his, and that he had no tribe. I did not hear Warena say that, nor have I ever said it myself. In 1891, I think, Warena asked Muaupoko to assemble in the Square at Palmerston. Kemp did not attend. Warena informed Muaupoko that he wanted Major Kemp to give effect to his statement that the land was the people's by giving them a part of that awarded to him. Hoani Puihi supported what Warena had said. Bangimairehau and others disagreed with what Warena had said, and the meeting broke up. Warena meant by what he said that the land was his by Maori custom, and that his title had been confirmed by law. He did not mean that it was his only, but that it belonged to him and his hapu. The fact of the land being awarded to Warena personally would not justify him in turning the people off the land. He has never expressed any such intention. Warena handed Mr. Cadman a list of names of Ngatipariri who he agreed should share No. 11 with him. Neither Warena nor I have ever repudiated the list. The money expended since 1890 has been expended on behalf of the persons in that list. I was not present when the list was handed to Mr. Cadman. Warena defended all actions brought against him by Kemp for himself and his hapu, the Ngatipariri. Cross-examined by Hamuera Karaitiana. Witness: I have not submitted my account with the object of obtaining payment by Ngatipariri. Ido not ask them to pay it. Cross-examined by Sir W. Buller. Witness : I still say that Warena is not a trustee for the tribe. The law gave him the land, and it is for him to consider his hapu. It is for Warena to say who of his hapu of Ngatipariri should go in with him. If any one complained they could go to law. It was tor Warena and some of his hapu to say how much Ngatipariri should have—those selected by him. I cannot say who Warena would select. Warena is absolute owner of the land by law. He has Whakaaro rangatira. According to law he could keep everybody out, but he prepared a list of names of those who were to go in with him. He knew that he had a hapu to consider. Ido not admit that Kemp went to law to get a trust declared in favour of the people. He took action because Warena pressed him to account. I admit that the result of Kemp going to law is that the tribe are put back on No. 11. Warena has no committee of Ngatipariri now to consult with. When Ngatipariri were with him he told them he had prepared a list of names. Ido not know whether he had any Committee then. Warena told Ngatipariri that he intended to sell the State farm. He told Hoani Puihi and others. Kemp was the first to sell the land. He received £5 on account of the sale. Then the Government came to Warena. A Proclamation was issued over the land which prevented all sales to private individuals. Warena did not pay Ngatipariri any part of the £2,000. I did not receive any part of it. I got £800 out of the £4,000. It all went in expenses and law-costs incurred in fighting Kemp. Warena has contended that the land was his, but he intended to consider his hapu. None of the other hapus of Muaupoko have any right to the portion of No. 11 that was awarded to Warena. In my opinion, Warena's name was put in No. 11 as a trustee for Ngatipariri. No. 11 was awarded to Warena, but he was under an obligation to consider his hapu. W T arena was put in No. 11 to hold it for himself and his hapu, the Ngatipariri. To Mr. McDonald (through Court) [Horowhenua Commission, page 170, question 17 and reply, read] : I did not hear Kemp give that evidence. To Court: Kemp made it appear that he wished to put the people back on the land, but his real object was to avoid accounting for rents. Notwithstanding that Ke,mp continued to advocate the rights of the people after the deed of release was signed by Muaupoko. I still consider he was actuated by the motive I have stated. I object to the account rendered by Kemp. Ido not think that Kemp should have paid away any money until he knew who were entitled to receive it, and in what proportion. Warena was not as bad as Kemp. He never made any proposal to Kemp that he could not approve. All the trouble has been caused by Kemp.