79

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divisions of the Horowhenua Block were first spoken of. I think Kemp and McDonald conducted the case. The first block I heard was the railway. I think the next was Levin, the 4,000 acres. The third block, I think, was No. 3, which, I think, was laid off for Ngatiraukawa, somewhere about Ohau. No. 3 was not Raumatangi. I had no conversation with Kemp before the Court opened about any of the divisions. My brother-in-law, Stickles, spoke to Kemp about the block. .He spoke to Kemp about the No. 3 division. I was not present when Stickles first spoke to Kemp in the barn. I heard him speak to Kemp in the Court about No. 3. I was present. Kemp asked him if No. 3 was good ground. Stickles said it was. In reply to further questions by Kemp, Stickles said there was milling timber on part of it, and that it was well watered. It was Ben Stickles who spoke to Kemp. I am quite sure that No. 3 was cut off for Ngatiraukawa. I have heard lately that Kemp claimed No. 3 for himself. I cannot say how many years it is since I heard it, perhaps three or four years ; but I knew before that time that he had leased it. I never heard Kemp ask the Muaupoko or Ngatipariri for the Ohau land for himself. Mrs. Better has never been asked to agree to Kemp having No. 14 for himself that I know of. I think that we heard that Ngatiraukawa objected to take No. 3 just after it was offered to them. Ngatiraukawa having refused the land on the Ohau side, it was naturally supposed that it would go back to the block. I have heard several of the Natives say so in my own house. Cross-examined by Mr. McDonald. Witness : I am almost sure that Major Kemp lived in the same boarding-house as myself; at any rate, I often saw him at table there. I may be confusing the Court of 1886 with that of 1890. He seemed well. I think he was unwell in 1886, but will not be sure. I may have been mistaken ; it may have been at time of 1890 Court that Kemp lived at the same place as myself. Cross-examined by Henare te Apatari. Witness : I could not say whether Mangakahia was the Assessor of the Court I attended in 1886. There was only one meeting of Muaupoko in Palmerson's barn that I remember. I did not hear anything about the Ohau land at that meeting—at least, I don't think so. Major Kemp came in one evening and said that he was in trouble —that he had a bill of £3,000 from Sievwright, and asked the people to give him some land to pay for it; and they all agreed. That is all that was done. Kemp asked for 800 acres. The land at Ohau was cut off for Ngatiraukawa. Hamuera Karaitiana had no questions. Cross-examined by Mr. Baldwin. Witness : I have only recently heard that Kemp claimed No. 14. I never heard it from Kemp himself. We had previously heard that it had been leased like other portions of the block. Cross-examined by Sir Walter Buller. Witness : I never saw my wife's mother. I don't speak Maori well. I only know a few words. I have never troubled my head about Maori. I never heard of any of the blocks being considered outside. I don't know that I could put the words " What divisions were considered outside " into Maori. I could not put " What block was considered at your meeting " into Maori. My joke with Kemp would be in broken Maori. I don't remember what it was. lam clear as to what took place at the Court of 1886. I saw Kemp and McDonald conducting in Court. I don't know who the Assessor was. Carr, the constable of Otaki, was the interpreter. The lands first brought before the Court were : the railway, the township, and the Ohau section. It was the first Court I was ever at. I did not pay much attention to the proceedings. I remember what I have said took place quite well. All that was said about No. 3 that I heard was the conversation between Stickles andKemp. I cannot remember anything more being said about No. 3on that day. I don't think it was set off on that day. It may have been. I think there was a split up between Kemp and McDonald about that time, and that things were at a standstill for a day or two. I could not say exactly which was the first piece called on. I think No. 1 was first, No. 2 followed No. 1. I could not say that No. 3 came on the same day or the same week. To the best of my recollection the stoppage took place at No. 3 block. I could not say what the cause of the stoppage was. The quarrel between Kemp and McDonald may have been outside. I won't say when No. 3 came on, or whether it was on the same day as No. 2. I was in Court when No. 3 came on in Court. I knew it was a bit of ground for Ngatiraukawa. I don't know that the number was spoken of in Court. I don't remember what took place in Court about No. 3 except the conversation I have related between Kemp and Stickles. I think Stickles stood by the side of the witness-box, and replied to the questions put to him by Kemp. The questions were put in Maori. I don't think the Judge said anything. Kemp said to Stickles : "It will do; we will cut that bit off for Ngatiraukawa." I can't say whether the Court did cut it off that day. McDonald was in the Court. Cannot say whether he took any part in the proceedings. I don't think he said anything about No. 3. I can't say when Ngatiraukawa refused the Ohau section. Lewis did not come till afterwards. Nicholson was present. He had a good deal to say in Court at different times. I don't think he was present during the conversation between Kemp and Stickles. He may have been ; but he did not say anything. I did not know then that Ngatiraukawa wanted Raumatangi. I did not hear this till nearly a week after the Court. There were high words between Nicholson and McDonald in the Courthouse after Lewis arrived about the Raumatangi section. The Land Court was not sitting. I think it was over, but it may not have been. The high words between McDonald and Nicholson were about the Hokio Stream. Nicholson wanted the boundaries of their land to go to the water. Kemp would not sanction it, as he had already that day reserved 2 chains round