67

G.—2

I never heard the Ohau section referred to again in the barn after Nicholson had refused it. I did not hear anything about it afterwards. I heard about another piece being arranged for the descendants of Te Whatanui, at Eaumatangi. I heard this at our kainga, at Palmerston. I heard the people say that Kemp proposed to give the descendants of Whatanui a piece of land at Eaumatangi. I did not hear any objection to the proposal. All the people agreed. Kemp's name was to go into the section, and it was to be for the same people that the Ohau section had been offered to. I did not understand that the descendants of Whatanui were to have both sections. They were to have their choice, but were only to have one section. I did not hear at the time that the descendants of Whatanui had chosen either section. I did not hear Kemp say in 1886 that the descendants of Whatanui had chosen either of the sections. I have since heard that the descendants of Whatanui had made a choice of a section. I heard this at time of Otaki Court. I did not attend it; but Eere and Ema Nicholson told me what they were going for. They said they were going to Otaki about the Eaumatangi land—l mean No. 9, near the 100 acres, at Eaumatangi. The Court I refer to sat about two years ago. I did not make any application to Kemp about No. 14 after the Otaki Court, because we were too much occupied with the dispute between Kemp and Warena, in connection with No. 11. I have not heard of any others applying to Kemp about No. 14 since the Otaki Court. I remember a meeting at Horowhenua, at a place called Pipiriki, to discuss the matters in dispute between Kemp and Warena. At that meeting Waata Muruahi spoke of the Ohau section; he also referred to the land held by Kemp and Warena, and that held by Ihaia Taueki. He asked Kemp to give back the Ohau section to the tribe. I heard him. Kemp, in reply, said, I only now understand that this is an attempt to choke me. Ido not quite know what he meant by it. I thought at the time of the Pipiriki meeting that No. 14 belonged to the descendants of Whatanui, because I did not know that they had finally rejected it. I knew that it was vested in Kemp, for the purpose of conveying it to them. Ido not know what year Pipiriki meeting was held. I think it was after the Court of 1890, but am not sure. It was about that time. Cross-examined by Mr. Stevens. Witness : I can give the names of some of the Muaupoko who did not attend the Court of 1886. Winara te Eaorao, Hori te Pa, Noa Tame, Tiripa Waata, amd Anikanara Hori did not attend the Court. The reason was that they were followers of Te Whiti, and did not recognise Courts. Waata Muruahi was there one day. There were flax-mills working in Horowhenua in 1886. Some of the Maoris worked at the mills. Some of those I have mentioned were engaged at the mills. I don't know that any of the Muaupoko were away at Parihaka or Wairarapa when the Court sat in 1886. I don't know that Kemp has large personal interests in Nos. 11 and 14, or either of them. If Kemp stated that he held No. 14 by his own personal right he was wrong. He has no right there at all. It was given to him for the descendants of Whatanui. I don't know where Kemp's claims are situated in Horowhenua. I was in Palmerston when the Court sat there in 1890. No. 11 was divided between Kemp and Warena by that Court. The north side of the block was awarded to Kemp. The Hokio Stream was the boundary between them. If No. 14 had not been laid off east of the railway that part would have gone to Warena under the order of the Court of 1890. Warena Hunia has rights to No. 14 by Maori custom. He has large rights there. I don't know that Wirihana Hunia has any other right to Horowhenua than that derived from his father. I know he derived his right from his father. Wirihana Hakeke's rights went to his descendants —Wirihana is one of them. Ngatihine is Kemp's hapu of Muaupoko. Wirihana te Hakeke was Ngatipariri. Cross-examined by Henare Te Apatari. Witness : My wife and I returned from Palmerston to Horowhenua several times, for two or three days at a time, when the Court sat in 1886. I was at the meeting when Kemp asked the people to set apart some land to enable him to fulfil his agreement with the Government regarding the descendants of Whatanui. No one objected. I was not at any meeting at which Kemp asked for the Ohau land for himself. The two sections were set apart so that the descendants of Whatanui might choose which they would have, Nicholson having objected to the Ohau section. The Muaupoko were not all present. Pero Tikara was in Wairarapa. He did not attend the meetings or Court in 1886. Te Oti Hore was in Wairarapa at time of meetings in Palmerston in 1886. Cross-examined by Hamuera Karaitiana. Witness : I don't think Winara attended the Court at Palmerston in 1886. I do not know who acted for him. His brother and sister were at Horowhenua. I could not say who represented Hori te Pa. Noa Tame's younger brother was at the meetings at Palmerston in 1886. I did not hear him say that he acted for himself and his brother. Tiripa Waata was not at Palmerston, but her mother was. I did not hear any one say that they appeared for any one else. It seemed necessary that those who were absent should be represented. Cross-examined by Mr. Baldwin. Witness : I am quite clear that I did not in 1886 give Kemp No. 14 for himself. I did not hear that any meeting of Muaupoko at Court of 1886, or at any time since, gave Kemp No. 14 for himself. I dispute Kemp's right to have No. 14 for himself. The tribe conferred very substantial benefits on Kemp in 1886. I remember they gave him 800 acres to pay his private debts with. The other owners only got 105 acres each. The 800 acres was a substantial share for Kemp. I remember also that Kemp got 4,000 acres to sell to the Crown, under certain conditions. Kemp asked the tribe for it, so that there should be a township near the people. The proceeds were to pay cost of survey. This was not done. We paid for our survey ourselves. I understood in 1886 that the 800 acres was Kemp's share. He sold it to pay his private debts incurred over Wanganui