G.—2

96

420. To whom was it paid ?—To Mr. Palmerston. 421. Do you know now much was paid?—l do not know; payment of money has always been made secretly, so that it cannot be seen. 422. The people were not consulted with regard to the payment of this £6,000? —No; there was no occasion for them to come to the tribe to say anything about it; they had given Kemp the land; and we are not saying anything about the money or land. 423. You consider that Kemp was entitled to the £6,000? —Yes; he took into consideration all the lawyers and people engaged about the work, and we are quite content that the money should be used to pay them. Mr. Bell had £700, and never did anything for it; he went once in the train as far as Palmerston, said two words, went back, and got £700 for it. 424. I presume Mr. Bell was consulted for the purpose of opposing Wirihana and Warena Hunia ?—The land was tied up in some way in the names of Kemp and Warena, and Mr. Bell was employed to untie it. 425. Do you remember who was acting for Warena at the time?— Mr. Barnicoat. 426. Who was the solicitor for Kemp ? —Mr. Baker. He was our lawyer for two years; then the money was finished; then we rejected him. 427. How do you know that £700 was paid to Mr. Bell?—I saw it. 428. Who asked Mr. Bell to come to Palmerston?—Kemp employed him personally on our side. 429. How much land did Warena get out of No. 3 ? —One hundred and four odd acres. It is not true to say it was 105; that is a very bad lie. I ask the Commission to look and see. 430. Did they get more land out of No. 3 than the 104 acres? —That is all we got. 431. What was done with regard to No. 4?— l am not clear. 432. Who got that ?—lt was for Eangitane—a tribe that lived up in the mountains. 433. Do those people own that land now?— Yes ; they have it still. 434. If those people were up in the mountains, how is it they hold the land? —That was the pataka in the mountains. 435. What was done with regard to No. 5 ?—No. 5 was allotted to Tamati Taopuku and Topi Kotuku. 436. No. 6 belonged to the rereivaho ? —Yes. 437. Has anything been done with that land?— Yes; it has been let to Mr. Bartholomew. 438. For how much a year ?—The people belonging to the land would know. They are being paid a royalty for the timber. 439. Was any of that paid to Kemp ?—The money is in the bank for the people who own the land. 440. Why are they keeping it in the bank ?—They want it to increase to a considerable sum. 441. If Kemp had paid the £6,000, would it not have done so, too ?—I will not back to that. 442. What was done with No. 8 ?—lt was given to Mere Karena, Buahoatu, and Karena Taiawhio. 443. They managed their own business ? —That is right. Kemp had nothing to do with that. 444. With regard to No. 9 ? —lt is very wrong for Ngatiraukawa to trouble me about that land. 445. Who set aside No. 9 ?—Kemp. 446. With the acquiescence of the people ?—Yes. 447. What became of No. 9?— l do not know. All we had to do was to lay it aside for them. 448. For what purpose? —As a place for the descendants of Te Whatanui; and they are not right after setting aside this to come bothering for more. 449. Why did you set aside this 1,200 acres?— The reason was that it was in the oath of Taueki to Whatanui. 450. Who said it should be 1,200 acres ?—Kemp said so, and we all agreed. 451. Did he not say the land should be more than 1,200 acres?— No. 452. Are you quite certain that they were not to get more?— Yes; quite certain. If they say much more about it, I will take it from them. 453. So No. 9 was given to settle the claims of Taueki and Te Whatanui ?—Yes. 454. For whom was No. 10 set aside ?—To pay the debts of Kemp, contracted about lands on the Wanganui Eiver. 455. Do you remember the amount of the debt ?—I do not know ;he did not tell us how much he owed to Sievewright. 456. Was any balance paid from Sievewright to Kemp, or was the whole 800 acres given in payment of the debt ?—Yes, the whole ; there was no remainder. 457. When No. 11 was cut off from the remainder of the block, where was it done—outside or inside the Court ?—lt was cut off outside at our meetings in 1886. 458. Were both Kemp and Wirihana present at the meetings?— Yes; they were both present, but we did not at that time know what was in the mind of Wirihana. They were constantly there. 459. Was the first proposal to vest the title in Kemp ?—Yes; as a kaitiahi. 460. Why was it not so vested in Kemp as a kaitiaki ? —What was desired was that he should be put in alone. Consider the length of time he had be in a similar position from 1873, and there has been no trouble. 461. No trouble for Kemp?—During the period from 1873 to 1886 they had had no trouble, and now since the land has been divided there has been continual trouble ? 462. Kemp had no trouble ? —He had no trouble. 463. Did you not hear that Wirihana and Warena had some trouble?— Yes; the trouble arose from Warena having been put into the title, and then the trouble came to us. Kemp said, "The land belongs to the tribe." Warena said, "No ; the law has given you and me the land." 464. Did Warena as 00-kaitiaki receive rents from Hector McDonald?—-Why should that money be given to Warena, considering to whom the land belongs.