G.—2

88

going into Court. The leaders of Muaupoko were present—Noa Te Whata, Eangi Eurupuni, and Bewiri; they were the only leaders of the Muaupoko, and they agreed that Kemp should, be put in. 154. Was Kawana Hunia present when that agreement was come to ?—Yes ; he was there. 155. Did Kawana agree to that settlement ?—lt was those two who did it. 156. Did Kawana ask to have his name put in with Kemp's at your last meeting?—No; he did not; he was quite content to leave it. 157. When the list was taken into Court, were you there?— Yes; I was there listening. 158. What chief was it that handed the list to the Court ?—Kemp. 159. Was Kawana present? —-Yes. 160. Did Kawana offer any objections?—l did not hear anyone object; there was no second arrangement of the list—only one. 161. Then Kawana did not object in Court?— No. 162. If Wirihana has stated that Kawana said to the Court, "Put my name in it," or anything of that kind, would it be correct ?—lt would be wrong. 163. If Wirihana stated that the Court said, " We do not think it is right that Kemp should be in by himself; let Hunia come in," is that right or wrong?—lt would be false; I did not hear the Court say anything of the kind. 164. Is it true that Kawana left the Court with offended dignity, because his name was not put in ?—When the list was read over we were all sitting round the Court, and when it was finished we rose quickly and walked out of the Court. 165. It is not true that Kawana left in dudgeon ? —No; it is not true. 166. What is your opinion of Kemp's chieftainship as regards Muaupoko?—Kemp is a chief, from his father down to himself; his father's chieftainship as a warrior could not be impugned. 167. Mr. Fraser has asked whether this was not Kemp's history: " Post-boy, policeman— fighting against his own tribe"? Is there any truth in such a suggestion? —It is not true, as intended; but, as children go to school, so he went to learn the ways of Europeans—as a maildriver, a policeman, and a soldier. 168.. Did he not carry mails at very troublous times along the coast, because no one else would do it?—l am not aware of any war trouble. 169. In your estimation, did he lose " caste " at all as a great chief by being a mail-carrier and policeman in those times? Did it not add to his importance ?—I did not object to his working at those things for the Europeans. 170. Is there any chief so great as Kemp in rank in relation to the Muaupoko ?—The chiefs of Muaupoko were equal; no person arrogated to himself authority over the other ; they were all equal in those times. Your European always asks, " Who is chief " ? But in our old custom there would be a chief in each place here and there all along. 171. Is he the paramount chief?— Yes; he is the chief, and the descendant of Taueki is another ; but lam the representative of Taueki; the father of the present Taueki is also an ancestor of mine. 172. Were you present at the Court of 1886 ?—Yes ; from the beginning to the end. 173. Did you take part in the private meetings which preceded the work in the Court ?—Yes; at Palmerston's house. 174. Do you remember that the Court allowed you to make all your arrangements outside, and to say you asked for orders and they were made ?—I do not know about the Court agreeing to it. 175. But you understood that, if you came to an agreement out of Court, the Court would give effect to it ?—Yes; so that we should not go into Court to quarrel or wrangle. The Court had nothing to do but to confirm the arrangements we came to out of doors. 176. Do you remember arranging, out of doors, about Block 2, which became afterwards the township of 4,000 acres to be sold to the Government ?—Yes ; Kemp told us the Minister had asked him to set apart a portion of the land as a town for the benefit of the land, and we very readily agreed, because the Europeans hitherto had been so distant from us. 177. Four thousand acres was agreed to, as the site for a township? —Yes. 178. You agreed it should be put in Kemp's name, to effect a sale to the Government?— Yes. 179. I suppose all those considerations that Mr. McDonald told us about were explained to you and accepted by you—the proposed arrangements as to one section out of every ten for the Natives, the school, the park, and the surveys : those were what you understood to be the nature of the arrangements ?—Kemp and Palmerston arranged this, but we heard afterwards that it had not been carried into effect. 180. Whose fault was it that it was not carried into effect ? —I went to Wellington to inquire into this matter. I saw there Kemp and Wirihana Hunia together, and spoke to them about my quart&r-acre sections. It was Wirihana who answered me, " They have been done away with." 181. By whom—by the Government or any one else? —It may have been Kemp ; it may have been the Minister ; I cannot say. 182. But you understood the thing was done away with, and you were not to get your quarteracres and other advantages ? —Yes; I understood so. 183. Have the Muaupoko at any time blamed Kemp for that?— No. 184. There was another block set npart for the rerewaho, who had been omitted in 1873 : who prepared the list of the rerewaho ? —lt was Kemp who asked us to make provision for them, and it was agreed to. 185. Then, with regard to Block 6, adjoining the 4,000 acres, was that set apart to be given to the rerewaho ? —Yes. 186. Was it agreed at the meetings that it should be put into Kemp's name for that purpose ? —Yes. 187. Were all the Muaupoko present when that arrangement was come to?- —Yes.