G.—2

82

491. Did Kemp say anything to you explaining why, seeing that the agreement in the first instance offered 1,300 acres only, 1,200 were cut off?— Before Lewis came up with the agreement, Kemp stated the fact that there had been an agreement, and that it was 1,200 acres. It was not until the document itself came up that we saw it was 1,300. Then the explanation was, that it was to be 1,300, including the 100 acres allotted by the Court. 492. Was that Kemp's explanation?— Yes. 493. Mr. Stevens.] Supposing Kawana Hunia were alive at present, which of the two would, in your opinion, be looked upon by the Muaupoko as the leader ? —lt is very difficult to say. Maori chieftainship is not a permanent thing that stands for ever; a man may be a great chief one day, and lose all his prestige and power the next. But it appears in the evidence given in the Native Land Court, in 1873, that Kawana Hunia was undoubtedly a man of very high rank indeed among the Muaupoko, and was mainly instrumental in keeping the Muaupoko independent to any extent at all. But in the Court of 1890, the thing was very different. Kemp said that Kawana, who was then dead, was nobody; but it did appear in the evidence given in 1890, that Kawana's father had an uncle, who was an extremely remarkable man ; it also appeared that Kemp's father was a remarkable man, and a warrior, But there was this difference : that Tanguru, Kemp's father, who, by everybody's account, was a first-class warrior, nevertheless, under stress of circumstances then existing, left the country and went to Wanganui; whereas, this uncle, who took, as it were, the part of Eob Roy, or people of that kind, took to the hills and stayed there, and clung to the land, in spite of everything. He did cling to the land, and kept the country in hot water till Kawana Hunia came, and, almost by force, took him away to Parawanui, to try and keep the peace. He was one of those determined men that would not give in, and would not be quiet or do anything. He killed a man when he could, and when he could not, he killed their pigs, and kept in hot water. I should say, as far as mere rank went, these two men, Kawana's father's uncle and Tanguru, Kemp's father, were very much of a stamp. The latter distinguished himself greatly in wars, in different places, but did not hang on to the land, and therefore, if I were the Judge, I should give the fellow who hun.* on to the land the preference—but on that account only. 494. The Chairman.] There was not much to pick and choose between them, so far as their general standing in the tribe was concerned ?—No ; according to the evidence, neither of them was the chief. So far as rank was concerned, there was a man above both of them. 495. Who was that? —Well, there is a,dispute ; but it seemed that there were two men's, both above these two. The actual chief who resided here was Taueki; but it is alleged that the chief who made the general peace at Karekare was a man called Taiwherua. Taueki was a peaceable, politic man, who was able to hold his tongue and be quiet. 496. Mr. Stevens.] What relation was Taueki to Kawana Hunia?—l do not know. 497. With regard to occupation, which of these two equal chiefs did most towards the occupation and cultivation of the land?—l do not think there is any comparison at all. I tried my best in the Buildings to find a document by Sir Donald McLean, which shows the great importance of Kawana in public life, and the stand he made against the entire assemblage of Ngatiraukawa, Ngatiawa, and Ngatitoa, and all of them at a place called Awahau, in Eangitikei, where, as a young man, he came forward and slanged the Ngatiraukawa for making an objection to his taking the opposite-side of the Eangitikei, and warning them that he was not going to stop there; and, until he had cleared his mother's land as well as his father's, he would not stop ; and he did clear his father's land the year after. He gave public notice that he was coming on down here ; and he did come, and was never satisfied with it; and if he had not gone back, Ido not know where he would have stopped. So far as his efforts to hold the land are concerned, I should put Kawana above, but not in rank. 498. Did you ever hear from Kawana anything relating to the various sums of money paid by him in his efforts to recover the land?—No; he died a poor man, though he had enormous oppor-. tunities. I do not think he had anything. He got lands everywhere for his people, but he got nothing. 499. Then you think that, in the case of Horowhenua, Kawana rendered assistance which would reasonably entitle his successors to some consideration far and above the rank and file of the people ?—Very much, I should think. I consider the services of Kawana Hunia with regard to the Muaupoko were simply inestimable and incalculable. 500. Sir W. BuUer.] Do you know where Tanguru was buried ?—I heard somewhere in Horowhenua. 501. As a matter of notoriety ?—No; as a matter of evidence. I never heard it until I heard it in evidence.

Satueday, 14th Maech, 1896. Alexandeb Macdonald's examination continued. 1. Mr. Fraser.] In regard to the Court of 1886, are you quite clear on this point, that the specific object of all the divisions, except No. 11, was mentioned? Was it specifically mentioned in Court what was the object of putting Kemp's name in alone ?—Yes, as regards 2, 10, 6, 14, 9, and 1 ] It was mentioned by me. I was conducting the case in Court, and submitted to the Court what had been arranged outside. I cannot recollect whether it was interpreted or spoken in Maori; I think it was interpreted. 2. It has been said by some witnesses that Subsections 9 and 14 were cut off, as there was some dispute between Ngatiraukawa and Muaupoko. In this letter you state this : "I recollect the following instances in which the Court was asked to make orders of this land in the Horowhenua Block : 76 acres to Major Kemp, to be transferred to the Wellington-Manawatu Eailway Company ; 4,000 acres to Major Kemp, to be sold to the Government; 800 acres to Major Kemp, to be trans-