79

G.—2

421. " What was said about No. 11 out of Court ?—The tribe decided that I should be caretaker of this land, and for the people. It was decided that Ihaia should be in one block, 13,000. He was to be caretaker of that, and I was appointed a caretaker of this. They said no more. Was anything said in Court about why the land should be in the name of the two ?—There was no acidressing the Court in 1873, nor then. I was addressing the Court. I merely said to the Court that I and Warena were to go into this block, and we would take care of this block. lam sure I said this to the Court. Is it not in the Court books? I said to the Court: I laid it down that I and Warena were caretakers of this land— kai-tiaki." Is that correct?— With regard to the word " caretaker," I say, as positively as it is possible for anybody to say anything, the word kaitiaki was never once used in my hearing, nor, as I believe, was it in the mind of anyone present at those meetings that they were to be kaitiakis, and I submit it is a cruel and wrong thing to say it, because it would have been my imperative duty, as licensed interpreter and agent of the Court, to tell the Court that such was in the minds of the people. To say that I concealed it from the Court is not right. I say that word is wrong ; there was no such word used. 422. Then, it is followed up by this question : " The question is, not what you had in your mind, but what you said to the Court ?—I did say so. I said Te Warena and I have been appointed to be guardians of the block, and I then sat down." Do you dissent from that ? —I do. 423. Then, about the tracing, do you remember making this statement in Court : " We went to the Court to get the arrangement confirmed by the Court. It is always a very difficult thing to know when a Maori has agreed to anything finally. I went into the Court and made the application for the different blocks, as I understood they were agreed to, including No. 11 " ?—Yes. Then you went on: " I cannot remember the order in which the various applications were made. With regard to No. 11, it was just doubtful whether the people had agreed to the names of Warena and Kemp or not. I know Kemp had not agreed to the insertion of Warena's name. I know he had not agreed. Ido not say he had expressed dissent. Silence means dissent, with Maoris. On my way to the Court when No. 11 was applied for, I met Wirihana Hunia, and he asked me if I was going to apply for that block in the joint names of Major Kemp and Warena. I said, you will hear my application when it is made in Court. I went into the Court and applied for the certificate for Kemp'alone for No. 11. In the usual course, the Court asked if there were any objectors. Wirihana got up in the body of the Court and objected. There was the usual bustling and talking, and the Court suggested a short adjournment, to see if the parties could agree. They did adjourn to a room adjoining, and after a few minutes I went to that room and found that the parties had agreed to the insertion of Warena's name, and application to be amended." You adhere still to that statement ?—I do. 424. You say you do not remember in what order the allotments were dealt with by the Court ?—I do not; I think the town was first. 425. If the minute-book says that Allotment 9 was dealt with before 14, you will accept that record?—l am certain it was. 426. Do you know at what period Mr. Lewis arrived on the scene ?—He was there before we went into Court, while the discussions were going on over the volountary arrangements. 427. He took a very active part in the matter, on behalf of the decendants of Whatanui?—Yes. 428. " Somewhere about this time Mr. Lewis, the Under-Sectary arrived at Palmerston. He took a very active part in the matter, on behalf of the decendants of Whatanui (Ngatiraukawa). It was alleged that a long time ago, after the Court of 1873, Sir Donald McLean and Kemp, agreed to give 1,200 acres to the Ngatiraukawa, in addition to the 180 acres awarded to them by the Native Land Court in 1873. Kemp fully admitted that he had promised the 1,200 acres to the 100 acres, and a piece of 1,200 acres was marked off on No. 1 tracing for the purpose; but it transpired through Mr. Lewis, that they did not want the 1,200 acres marked on the tracing; that they were not satisfied with it; and, after a great discussion, it was ultimately agreed to give them 1,200 adjoining or surrounding the 100 acres which was on the western side of the boundary." It was ultimately agreed to put another 1,200 acres on to the tracing we were working with, but we could not give it them. 429. You go on to say, speaking of the first 1,200 acres, " that was transferred to No. 1 tracing, and then arose a discussion as to who of the Ngatriaukawa were to be included"?— That is quite true; we waited to see if anybody would say, "We will take that." 430. This is the evidence you gave in the Supreme Court at Wanganui?—Yes ; at least, it is there. I have not seen the minutes of the Court of 1886 since they were written; but anything that appears in the minute-book of the Native Land Court I accept. 431. You say you understood that these two allotments were both vested in Kemp as alternative blocks for the descendants of Te Whatanui; and, if they accepted the 1,200 acres adjoining the 100 acres, Kemp was under an obligation to hand the other 1,200 acres back to the tribe?— Under moral obligation only. 432. You say that, for a considerable period of time, you were in friendly communication with Kemp, and that every time you met him you urged him to do something for the tribe: down to what time ?—Down to 1890. 433. When you took up the other side ?—I did not take up the other side ; I took a position as interpreter, which he considered taking up the other side, and our relations have never been friendly since. 434. Was he not always prepared to put the tribe right, if he could do so in is own way ? Did he ever deny that he regarded himself as guardian or caretaker as regards No. 11 ?—He never gave me any indication but that he considered himself to be the absolute owner, not only of his own part, but of Warena's too—not only in regard to Block 11, but the whole ground. 435. On every occasion you met you urged on him his duty to make provision for the tribe ?— I did.