43

G.—2

307. Was not that a matter commonly talked about by all the Muaupoko afterwards—the giving of this land in consequence of the burning of the houses ?—Yes; they all understood it was in consequence of that. 308. Have you ever heard that the land was given for any other reason?—No ; I did not hear that it was given for any other reason. 309. Do you know the land to the south of the Hokio Stream ?—I know the land, but Ido not recognise it on the map. 310. How old were you when you first recollect seeing settlements on the land ?—When I was very young. 311. Is it not a fact that none of the kaingas to the south of the Hokio belonged to the Muaupoko ? —The kaingas that are there now do not belong to the Muaupoko. 312. Did the kaingas you first saw there as a child not belong to ochers than the Muaupoko? —When I saw this place first as a child I understood they belonged to Watene. 313. Then the Muaupoko kaingas were to the north of the Hokio Stream ?—Yes. 314. Was it not shortly before the Court of 1873 that the first troubles arose between Ngatiraukawa and your father ?—Yes. 315. You know, do you not, that all the land south of the Hokio was leased not by the Muaupoko but by the Ngatiraukawa ?—I heard that my father took that lease. 316. Do you admit that the Ngatiraukawa made the lease?— The Ngatiraukawa leased the land to Hector McDonald, and after that Kawana Hunia took the lease. He objected to the lease, and said the lease given by the Ngatiraukawa was of no value. 317. Did not Hector McDonald pay the rent to Ngatiraukawa, and not to your father?— Yes; in the first instance, he paid to Ngatiraukawa. 318. Did he not continue to pay this rent for many years to Ngatiraukawa ?—Yes; I heard he paid it to them for many years. 319. And for many years no one disputed it ?—No; for some years there was no dispute about it at all; but Kawana objected, and said the Ngatiraukawa had no business to lease the land to Hector McDonald, and that was the beginning of the trouble. 320. Did not Watene and his people get fish from the lake on the south side ? —I heard they had been to fish on the lake, and also that they had taken the fish pas of Eaumatangi. And they had eel-pas, &c, on the stream?— Yes; on the Hokio Stream. 321. Up to 1873, no one disputed their right?—l heard they were objected to by my father. 322. By any one else ? —Not so far as I know. 323. Do you know a burial-place on this block called Oiowao?—■Nβ. 324. Do you know any burial-places where the dead of the Ngatiraukawa were buried on the north of the block ?—No ; I do not know about that. 325. Mr. Baldwin.] You have told us of a large number of Ngatiraukawa who lived on this block, and they lived there a considerable time previous to 1873 ? —Yes. 326. How did they come to live there ? —They came there because they had a claim on the land at Waiwiri. They will know the reason best. I suppose they went there because they had a claim. 327. Do you say they had a claim there as well as at Waiwiri, or that their sole claim was at Waiwiri? —Waiwiri and the adjacent land. 328. Had they a proper claim to Waiwiri and the adjacent land ?—I suppose they had a good claim to the lands there because they have got Crown grants. 329. That applies also to Horowhenua ?—That does not apply to Horowhenua. 330. You said that long prior to the 1,300 acres being given, or the Native land sitting at all, certain persons whose names you gave lived about the south part of Horowhenua : What was their right there ? Had they any right there ? —I only know that on the 1,300-acre block they had no claim. The 1,300 acres were not cut out till 1886. You say that in 1873, and a long while prior to that date, a large number of persons lived on the Horowhenua Block, south of the Hokeio stream: What was their right there ?—Prom ancestral claims. 331. Ancestry from Whatanui, was it not?— They will know their ancestry; I do not know. 332. Do you remember the coming of Te Whatanui ? —I have heard of it. 353. Have you heard that Te Whatanui was invited to this part of Horowhenua by Te Eauparaha ?—Those are ancient tales, and I do not know much about them. 334. You gave us a list of certain persons who lived on this land. Have you heard of the man called Te Whiti living there ? —Yes; I have heard he was living on the ground with these other people. 335. Do you know when the last Whatanui Tutaki died?—l have heard. 336. Was it about 1869 ? —I heard of his death, but I do not know when he died. 337. Was not the lease to Hector McDonald of the land south of the Hokoio a lease from Whatanui Tutaki alone ? —I have heard so. 338. Have you heard that that lease expired about 1870 ?—No; I did not hear that. 339. Was there any dispute with Muaupoko or anybody else up to the death of the last Whatanui in regard to this lease, or any other matter in regard to the land south of the Hokoio ?—I did not hear anything about Muaupoko making any disturbance about it. The only one I heard of making a disturbance was my father. 340. Was the exact date, when your father made the disturbance, before the death of the last Whatanui ?—I could not say for certain. 341. Have you not heard that Whatanui continued to receive the rent undisputedly up to the date of his death ?—I heard that Whatanui used to receive the rents, but I also heard that my father objected to the lease.