5

I.—2b

every action in public life would know very well that he would never have assumed such an attitude as that. He could, therefore, only have done so because he knew that he was no longer permanent Agent-General. At foot of page 4of 1.-lα, 1885, Sir Julius says—"Later on, Sir John Hall recognised that such was my position, and agreed to my commencing as Agent, and continuing only to hold the Agent-Generalship until relieved. He stated subsequently in the House that at this period he considered I was holding the office of Agent-General for the convenience of the Government." Now, nothing had occurred to make his position on the 4th March any different from his position in the November preceeding. The other question that arises out of this correspondence is this : When Sir John Hall was sending his telegram, in November, did he intend, or did he not intend, to include in it the Five-million Loan. That loan was assented to on the 11th August, and three persons were appointed Agents four days afterwards — Mr. Ommanney, Sir Penrose Julyan, and Sir Julius Vogel. On the 11th December the Bank of England was authorised to receive tenders for the loan, and on the following day the loan was raised. No bigger loan has ever, I believe, been raised at one time for New Zealand. When it was raised, the Committee will probably recollect from perusing Hansard, the loan was to be the last for some time. There was no idea or thought that there was to be another for years; indeed, Sir John Hall, in the Legislative Council, used the expression that he wished the loan could be reduced to two millions, because they could not possibly want the balance for some years to come. Now, Sir Julius had been in close connection with the Government as Agent-General, as Sir Harry Atkinson in his evidence admitted, and he knew the position of the colony very well. He knew or must have felt that, after the raising of the Five-million Loan, there would not be another for some time. When the offer was made to him of the Agency under the Inscribed Stock Act, at centage, to exclude the Five-million Loan would have been for him to put himself beyond the chance of receiving any money for many years to come. He was not in a position to have done so then. There can be no doubt that when he sent the telegram of the 7th November his idea of the Five-million Loan was this : that it was to be the one loan for a long time to come, and was to be the one on which this percentage was to be paid. It was the basis on which Sir Julius had calculated receiving a salary in place of the one he had received as AgentGeneral, and which he would lose when leaving the Agent-Generalship. I feel very strongly that I cannot place before the Committee the facts of the case as well as they are set out in evidence. I would not like to weary the Committee by reading out the whole of this evidence. At the same time, I can only trust that members will glance at the parts that Ido not touch upon. Now, Sir Julius made no doubt about his idea that it was on this Five-million Loan that he ought to have received the commission which formed his claim. Immediately after the loan the question was raised. Sir Julius says: "I was given to understand, however, that Sir John Hall was willing to bring the claim before Parliament. His Private Secretary, Mr. E. Fox, wrote me under date 28th February. He commenced his letter thus : ' This is a sort of semi-official or not merely private letter.' The following passage occurs in the letter: ' At present the Government are convinced that the past forbids consent to your application to be treated simply as a Loan Agent in connection with the late operation. Further, they believe that Parliament would not approve of such treatment, whatever might be said or done. But, if it should appear that they are wrong, and that Parliament would be willing to vote an honorarium, the Government would, I am to say, not only not oppose it, but would gladly support it?" The Government thought that, although they could not pay the money, they considered that morally it was well-earned: they would not oppose it, but would gladly support it. I ask the Committee to look at it in the same light. Of course, years have gone by since what happened then, and any gratitude that might have been felt for the way in which that loan, under extraordinary difficulties, had been raised ; and there can be little doubt that it was mainly owing to the extraordinary exertions of Sir Julius Vogel that the Colonial Stock Act passed, and that the agreement was made with the Bank of England, which agreement proved vitally important—l say that the gratitude that was then felt may perhaps after the many years that have gone by have somewhat died out. I would ask the Committee to take the view expressed in the semi-official letter just read, in which the Government said they would not oppose an honorarium, but would gladly support it. I would ask the Committee now at least to feel that they may do the same. I hardly like to pass over the Colonial Stock Act. It is not absolutely material to the case ;it is only material in so far as considering the whole general question as put by the Government, in reference to the payment of an honorarium to Sir Julius Vogel, in consideration of his extreme exertions, and of the efforts that he made. The question was asked him, in his evidence, as to whether he considered he had been amply remunerated for what he had done for the colony during his life. He replied rather positively, but with a sort of reluctance that any public man has to deal with such a question. I feel myself a,t this moment before the Committee in an extremely delicate and difficult position on this very matter. Here I am appearing for my own father, which is certainly a peculiar position, although perhaps it is not an immaterial one, and there is very little secrecy in the fact that at the present moment Sir Julius is in extremely bad financial circumstances. Were he a wealthy man he would, only too gladly say, "You may let the matter drop, you may let it go; " but there are times when a man, in justice not only, perhaps, to himself but to others he is naturally expected to help, cannot be guided by his wishes. lam perfectly certain that if Sir Julius felt that his claim was not just he would say at once : "If I have no right to the money I willingly abandon my claim. I make a present of it to the colony." I must, in justice to .the reason why the claim is preferred, say that Sir Julius is in an extremely bad financial position, and he feels, in justice to himself, if he has earned this money really and morally he must ask Parliament to grant it to him. I would ask the Committee to consider this phase of the matter as kindly as they possibly can —to consider rather, perhaps, what I have left unsaid than what little I have made mention of. I ask that as to that particular phase of the matter; and as to the whole, I ask the Committee to consider the extreme difficulty I have in putting the question fairly before them, and that they will make