13

1.—7

Hon. Mr. Larnach. —Do I understand you to mean every dealing between the bank and the Government, and any member of the Government ? I hold the Committee has nothing to do with the private dealings of any member with the bank, unless it is shown that the Government, as a Government, has done something wrong with the public funds. What I mean, Sir, is this: if the Government have improperly applied the funds, it will be for the Committee, undoubtedly, to examine those causes that. led up to that; but I submit that the private dealing of any member of the Government or anybody else with the bank is no business of the Committee, if it is agreed the work of the Government has been conducted properly. If the Committee find that the Government have dealt improperly with the funds, then they have a perfect right to inquire what produced this wrong-dealing. But I submit no Minister should be subjected to any question as to his piivate dealings with this bank or any other bank, unless it is shown these private dealings have affected his public conduct in regard to the administration of the colony's affairs. Further, it appears to me eminently reasonable that the charges should be put in Mr. Hutchison's actual words. The Chairman. —I think, if Mr. Hutchison and some member of the Government were to take Hansard and underline the parts which they mutually agree should be accepted as charges, it would save a good deal of time. It might then be open for either side to make a supplementary list of things they consider should be brought into the inquiry. Hon. Sir H~. A. Atkinson. —l want the exact words of the speech. They are definite and clear. Hon. Mr. Hislop. —We have the charges marked as you suggest. Hon. Sir H. A. Atkinson. —l, as representing the Government, am quite willing to meet Mr. Hutchison to arrange the charges if possible. The Chairman. —l naturally assume Mr. Hutchison will be quite prepared to meet any member of the Government. We are all anxious to arrive at the correct solution of this. It would save a good deal of time if we had the words marked in Hansard, mutually agreed upon as charges, but not in any way to restrict either side to things which they were agreed upon. Mr..Hutchison. —I desire to make my charges in the form of a statement of facts. The Chairman. —I understand my suggestion is practically agreed to. Mr. Hutchison. —I am quite willing to endeavour to minimise the points at difference. Sir H. A. Atkinson. —I understand the Committtee will go into nothing but the words contained in the speech, so that we are not to have things printed that we disagree upon if they are not in the speech. The Chairman. —The order of reference confines us to the speech. I understand that the Government and Mr. Hutchison have agreed that they will meet and decide as to what charges they can agree upon jointly, and either side will then have the opportunity of giving any further extracts from Hansard which they consider should be dealt with by the Committee. [To Mr. Hutchison, Sir H. A. Atkinson, and Hon. Mr. Hislop:] I think we need not detain you any longer. Mr. Hutchison. —l should be glad if you could communicate when you would be prepared to take the witnesses. I may say, Sir, I should object to taking these witnesses on the spot before those who come from a distance. I desire to call the witnesses in the order their evidence may relate to the charges. Further, I would ask that I may be allowed a copy of these charges, as I have not retained them. Sir H. A. Atkinson. —We disagree with that. A lot of it is not in Hansard at all. Might I say one word further : Those charges contain matter which I know is not published in the speech, and that is unfair to the Government. If it is printed, fresh charges are made which will make the matter very difficult to deal with. ... As far as public balances and that go, I shall be glad to admit everything in that respect, to save Mr. Hutchison any trouble. I shall be glad to give the Committee full official information upon every point. We may admit certain points, and so save the time of the Committee.

Wednesday, 16th July, 1890. The Chairman. —I would ask Mr. Hislop whether he has any further remark to make to the Committee as to the manner in which we should proceed. Hon. Mr. Hislop. —No; the remarks I made yesterday, supplemented by what I have just handed in, appear to me to be sufficient, and are all I have to make to the Committee. I may, however, state, in regard to an incorrect and misleading paragraph which appeared in this morning's paper, that I desired no restriction or contraction of anything in the speech of the honourable member for Waitotara; but, on the contrary, the objection raised was that the charges as submitted by him were not co-extensive with his speech on the main charges; and that there was an attempt to get in other matter than was in the speech. Mr. Hutchison. —Then, you will not let in the New Plymouth matter at all ? Hon. Mr. Hislop. —l do not refer to this other matter now; but we have no objection to go into the New Plymouth or any other matter if the Committee require that we should do so. We have simply taken out what seemed to us the gravamen of the charges made against us—namely, that we were moved by consideration for the Bank of New Zealand instead of consideration for the good of the country. At the same time we are quite prepared to go into the New Plymouth matter or any other. Mr. Hutchison. —I object altogether to the form in which the Minister of Education asks the Committee to deal with these charges. Yesterday you asked me to formulate the charges made against the Government. I did so. If I understand the meaning of the word formula it does not mean a number of extracts taken from the speech here and there and brought forward as the charges made by me. Unless the Committee are going to disregard their own resolution that the charges should be formulated, I say the charges are not formulated by reading these passages from