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157. Mr. M. J. S. Mackenzie.] You say that tradesmen have withheld encouragement from your technical class? —In one or two instances that is so; but I think the majority of the tradesmen appreciate the necessity that exists for such instruction. But the great difficulty is to persuade the lads that it is a benefit to them. . 158. Mr. Allen.] Do I understand you that you would form your art school on the basis ot the South Kensington establishment ? In what way ? Do you mean as a school of design ?— Yes ; I would advise the establishment of a school of design in each large district, but would make the instruction branches rather more technical in character. 159. Do you consider the South Kensington establishment a technical school?-—! do not ; it has no practical working out of the instruction given—no way of carrying knowledge into practice. It is, strictly speaking, a training school; but, from experience, I should say that those students trained as designers find they have not considered the nature of the material or substance to be worked in connection with their designs, and consequently find their knowledge far less practical than it should be. In the Sydney College we have a practical application of the drawing done ; that is what I am striving to do here. 160. The Chairman.] In New South Wales is there any part of the system set apart for mus i c that is, is there any connection of music with the department ?—No. There was a musical class at the time I left, but I see by the report it has been discontinued. 161. You spoke of science? —Yes; there is a scientific provision, a laboratory, &c. But, on this point, I could give you better information by submitting for your attention the report on the Education Department of New South Wales, page 167. 162. Have you a copy? —Yes; I have a copy which I can forward to you. In every case drawing is considered the basis of trade and professional instruction. A lad is expected to go through a drawing course before he proceeds to the separate divisions. Students are unable to obtain the certificates as experts unless they go through this course. 163. Hon. Mr. Fisher.] So that we may apply it to your evidence, will you give us some explanation of what you mean by the word " technical? "—I consider that "technical," in our sense, means a thorough knowledge not only of the practical part of a work, but of the theoretical 164. What work?— Any trade or professional work; we will say a builder. The technical knowledge of his work would be that he should understand not only how the bricks are put together, but how all the parts of a building are constructed. He should know everything connected with excavation, for instance; be able to take out quantities, and to know what the quantities of any given work should be. He should be thoroughly capable of judging of the nature of the materials, and the character of the work when it is completed. It really means that he has not only a practical experience of all that has to be done, but a theoretical knowledge of everything necessary to the completion of his work. In a word, that he should have a thorough knowledge of everything requisite from the beginning to the end. This is why I say these evening classes of ours are technical that we not only give theoretical knowledge, but that we combine that knowledge with practice, so that the pupil may understand thoroughly the nature of the work he has on 165. Dr. Fitchett.] You say that, to initiate this system, if £1,000 were set aside for it, that would be sufficient ?—1 think so, for the first year. 166. Do you think that would enable the State schools in the various parts of the colony to have the necessary accommodation and apparatus? —No. I think it would be necessary during the first year that a person should visit the various districts and see what has been done in each, and what could be done to improve the position of each separate district. He would report what has been done, and make recommendations as to what should be further done, so that the classes might be established in all the districts. 167. So that £1,000 would be available, not for apparatus, but for making the preliminary inquiries ? For that purpose only ; it would not be sufficient to provide apparatus. 168. Would you be good enough to say how much would be necessary to get the requisite apparatus in the schools ? —I could give you an idea if I ascertained the number of schools. There are, I believe, nineteen districts. The Chairman.] Perhaps it would be more convenient to forward that estimate with the reports and other documents which you say you will forward to the Committee. 169. Dr. Fitchett.] Have you any knowledge of the State schools ?—I visit a large number of schools during the year, and have an opportunity when there of observing the methods adopted in teaching. I may state that my own conviction, as an outsider, in regard to that matter is this : that the average teacher is incapable of keeping up with the standard requirements. By this, Ido not mean that the teachers are incapable or have not the knowledge, but that they have a certain amount of matter to get through in the year, and their difficulty is in getting through that amount of work, more especially in Standard 111. I feel strongly that the system is one of "cram" in many of the subjects, so as to get the school up to the Inspector's requirements. From my point of view, the mind of the child is not sufficiently exercised; everything is told to him ; he is not made to think sufficiently for himself; the perceptive faculties are not trained. This, I conclude, is on account of the difficulty the teacher finds in getting the requisite amount of work done. He has no time to draw out the intelligence. 170. In order to find time for drawing in the State schools it would be necessary to simplify the syllabus, would it not ?—Yes. 171. Will you give the Committee an idea as to how you would simplify the Syllabus: what subjects would you let go ?—From my point of view, I would let go some grammar, some geography, and a part of history lessons. From my point of view, some of the history and geography lessons now given might just as well be given in reading lessons. Some of the geography lessons, I feel