I.—4b

6

lands. For example, it would be very great folly to sell town lands or lands particularly well situated. Where you can give leaseholds, then it is advisable to lease; but in certain cases it is far better to sell than to lease, and to invest the money in freehold securities. 116. Mr. J. McKenzie.] You stated that it was the opinion of the Commissioners that some of the leaseholders would take their leases for the purpose of taking two or three crops off the land and then abandoning it. Have you had any experience of that in any way?—No; we have never given the chance. But this I know: I have had experience in other parts of the colony, more especially Canterbury', whera,thc land has been worked out. 117. Then, as far as your lands have gone, there has not been any such thing?—We have given no leases except in town sections. 118. Did you not lease any rural lands ? —Yes; but not until lately. I think there are four or five leases. 119. Then you had not really had any experience of it being done—of the land being cropped and then abandoned? —No ; there has been no chance. 120. Who leased the lands when you advertised them under conditions by which any one individual could take up as many sections as he pleased ?—Only three or four, I think. 121. You made a statement to the effect that some of those people leased lands with a view of eventually making them into freeholds. Was that your opinion—that people bought leases of the land with a view of evading the law?—Yes : that they would bring pressure to bear to get their conditions abrogated. 122. Then you state that you were induced to depart from the original intentions of the trust owing to the clamour for settlement ?—Yes. 123. Was that a genuine desire for settlement ?—I think there was a genuine desire for settlement. I knew four or five purchasers. 124. And if you were allowed to sell they would have bought ?—I think so, at that time. I knew one man who brought £1,200, and another who had £1,800, which money would have been expended in the purchase of freeholds. 125. You told us the money you received was invested in mortgage. What do you do with the money (rents) you received for the pastoral lands ? —They are a part of the annual revenue, the same as interest. 126. Who invests your money ?—The Board. 127. And does the Board look after the securities, or have you an agent ?—We have no agent: the Board looks after the securities. 128. Who makes the valuations ?—We get the lands valued by a valuer. We charge the purchasers so much for that, and hand it over to the valuers. 129. Mr. J. B. Whyte.] Have you been on this Trust long?—From its commencement, in 1877. 130. Then you have had an experience of several Ministers ? —Yes. 131. Which, in your opinion, was most anxious to pose as the supreme being?—Those two gentlemen, I think, Mr. Ballance and Mr. Bolleston, especially the latter. 132. Had either of them, in your opinion, shown any particular qualifications for the position ? —I think that is hardly a fair question. I could not say. 133. They were all in favour of perpetual punishment or leasing, as it was called ?—Yes. 134. Mr. McMillan.] Although it has been said that the purpose of changing the management of the reserves is mismanagement, there are other reasons. I was going to ask you if you do not think it would be more economical to have the management in one Board instead of in several Boards? —I do not know that there is any expense attached to this Board. 135. You think there has been no conflict between the interests of settlement and the management of the reserves ? —There should be none if the Commissioners were allowed to give effect to their own views without undue interference on the part of Ministers of Lands. 136. But has there been any conflict in the past ?—Well, there has been between the Ministers of Lands and the Commissioners. 137. Then, do you not think it is a wrong principle to part with the freeholds of any trust? —It all depends upon the circumstances. At the time these endowments were made it was believed that they should be retained in perpetuity ; but the demand for land some years ago was very great, and the settlers in the district said, " Why are not these lands opened up so that we can tax them for making roads?" In fact, they said, "Here are large blocks of two or three thousand acres, and we cannot tax them. They are lying idle, and not utilized either for the benefit of the trust, the district, or the colony, and we have to pay heavy taxes for roads and bridges in consequence." 138. Mr. Macandreio.] Do you consider you gave the leasing system a fair trial ?—Yes, we did. 139. Hon. Mr. Bolleston.] Which leasing system?—Twenty-one years. 140. Mr. Macandrew.] That is what I meant—the leasing system of the Act?—Yes—that is, under the Act of 1877. 141. Mr. Bolleston asked you to state the cost of administering these reserves. Could you manage to furnish a correct statement, and say how much would be saved ? —lt is in the Government offices. The Commissioner of Education could get it for you. 142. Is it true that you have got lands you could not get Id. an acre for ?—Yes—a rental of Id. an acre. 143,, Mr. J. McKenzie.] Is that land covered with rabbits?—Nov Ido not know that it is. 144. Mr. Macandreiv.] The Eeceiver of Land Eevenue has very little to do. Could he not act as secretary"to you, and save a salary?—That appointment is very much condemned by the people in Otago. 145. Why is it condemned ? —As unnecessary.