I.—4b

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exact proportions. The Minister objected to this, however, and insisted that one-third should be let on perpetual leases. Now, the whole of the Commissioners at that time were opposed to letting on the perpetual-leasing system, more especially as it was found that it was not the desire of the people to take the lands on these leases. The objection to the system was that one section of people would take up the land under these leases, considering that in a few years they would be able to obtain the freehold. Then others, again, would take up this land, get three or four crops off it, and then throw it on the hands of the Commissioners. Those were our opinions upon the system of perpetual leasing. •* 6. Upwards of sixty sections were offered by you, and one inducement held out was that personal residence was not required, and that there was to be no limited area to any one person ?— That is in accordance with the law. 7. Had this land been offered previously?—lt had been frequently offered. 8. And it still remained on your hands?—Yes; we could do nothing with it. 9. Hon. Mr. Bolleston.] Under which Act was that ? —Under " The School Commissioners Act of 1878," under which the Commissioners held these properties. Hon. Mr. Ballance : But you were not compelled to sell or lease under that Act. 10. Mr. Macandrew.] I understand, then, that the Commissioners have powers under that Act. They were acting within the letter of the law?—Undoubtedly. 11. And I suppose one of the chief objects in holding forth such liberal conditions was to get the land settled ?—Yes. Having failed to get the Government's assent to the proposition we had made, we had to fall back on the powers we possessed. 12. How many of those sections were taken up ? Were they all sold ? —Oh, no. 13. So that, then, those apparently liberal conditions did not entice people to take the land up ? —No, they did not. 14. Hon. Mr. Ballance.] I suppose the best were sold. Oh, no. I think there were only five out of the lot sold. 15. Mr. Macandrciu.] It would appear from that, then, that there cannot be a very great number of applicants for land, or else the terms were not inducing enough ?—The land is good, and I believe it could be sold on deferred payments or for cash. 16. Hon. Mr. Bolleston.] I should like to continue Mr. Macandrew's questions. When the lands were put up on perpetual lease, were they not sold ? —Some of them. Ido not know how many. 17. A large proportion ?—Well, I cannot exactly say. You can get full particulars from the papers in the Land Office. 18. Well, will you tell us whether this is not a true statement, appearing in the Appendices, Vol. 1, Session 1., 1884 : " Those reasons have acquired additional strength from the fact that since that date the course that has been pursued in setting aside a proportion of Crown lands and education reserves to be dealt with under the system of perpetual leasing has met with marked success, the amount of sections which have been taken up in this way being as follows : 132 sections, with an area of 23,196 acres " ?—That does not refer to the Otago Education Eeserves. 19. Not altogether; but generally, in that district ?—ln which district ? 20. In the Otago and Southland district ?—I cannot say that it is true. Ido not believe that it is. Ido not know what has been taken up. Here, in the Manawatu District, and also at Patea, from rumour, I believe a number of sections have been taken up. 21. Mr. Macandreiv.] That statement applies to the whole of the colony ?—I think it does. 22. It does not apply to the land under your jurisdiction?—No. 23. Hon. Mr. Bolleston.] Do you assert that no considerable proportion put up was sold ?— There were a good number of high-school reserve sections taken up under perpetual lease. The purchasers have since insisted on a reduction of rent, and have further insisted on the High School Commissioners making roads to and within the blocks so leased. 24. Arc you speaking from your own knowledge ? —Yes. I am a High School Commissioner, and I know perfectly well what has taken place at the High School Board. The purchasers have petitioned the Board to make the roads : they look upon it as a matter of right, and require that the Board should carry out what the tenants consider to be their functions —that is, to provide them with roads. 25. Mr. Macandreiv.] Then you assert that out of funds set aside by the Legislature the tenants are moving Heaven and earth to get roads made ?—Yes. 26. Hon. Mr. Ballance.] You say there is a probability of people taking up land under the perpetual-leasing system ; but you seem to think a great many would take the land with the object of ultimately getting a freehold ?—Yes. 27. Well, would that not be an inducement ?—Yes ; but they are doing it dishonestly, as people who are looking forward to ultimately gaining a march upon their neighbours by taking up land on lease with a view of, by a sidewind, obtaining the freehold—by applying for a lease with a view of subsequently bringing pressure to bear on the Legislature to get a freehold. I think such a system is vicious, and should not be encouraged by the Legislature. 28. But that would be legitimate. You would get the settlers ultimately. You say they would not take up in leases ?—Honest men would not do so, and they would therefore be placed at a disadvantage. 29. But is there anything wrong or unconstitutional in a man trying to get the law altered to suit his class ?—I think there is, seeing the man repudiates an engagement he enters into bona fide. 30. That is not repudiation. You say that your object was not so much revenue as settlement ?—Yes. ' 31. Do you not consider that, as trustees for a particular purpose, your first duty was to make the most of your trust ?—Yes, to get a fair revenue; but at the same time to benefit the colony as well as the trust by securing bona fide settlers.