I.—2a.

11

155. Are there not some of the Judges of your Court at present who refuse to allow lawyers to appear '?—No ; I do not see how they could refuse, unless they disallowed agents generally. 156. Is it within your own knowledge whether Judge Brookfield declines to allow lawyers to appear in his Courts?—l never heard of him doing so. 157. Taking all the circumstances into consideration, from your experience do you think it would be better or otherwise to exclude lawyers ?—lt depends upon what they did when they were admitted. 158. lam speaking now from your experience. Do you think you could get on without them? —Certainly we could; some of the Native agents are very shrewd fellows; as well able to conduct a case as any one. 159. Hon. Mr. Bryce.] You are speaking of persons of the Native race?— Yes. 160. Mr. Hobbs.] Could you not get on better with lawyers?—lf one lawyer happened not to be very jealous of the other I think I could. 161. Do you not think the Natives are well able to conduct their own cases? —It depends entirely on whether the contending party has one of themselves competent. I remember a case in which the Natives proposed to conduct their own cases. There was one old man who was really so incompetent to do it, that I asked his friends to get some one else to do it in place of him. He was the chief man, and thought he ought to conduct the case himself. 162. Do you think you would have any difficulty where the land had not been dealt with in purchase or anything connected with it, where the Natives were simply investigating their own title ?—lf it were not for the European purchasers and money there would be no trouble, or very little. 163. You have a very strong view to that effect ?—Yes. 164. Major Te Wheoro.] Do you consider that a lawyer is more able to lay the case before the Court than the Native, with regard to the Natives' own claim?—l think that Dr. Buller, as a lawyer, would be able to do better, and I think that Mr. Sheehan, as a lawyer, would be able to do better; but I, as a lawyer, would not. 165. Do you think all lawyers are better acquainted with the grounds upon which the Natives claim than the Natives are themselves?— Some of them are, I believe. They have a more general knowledge of the subject. 166. You said that if the lawyers were to conduct the cases in Court these cases would not take such a length of time : they would be disposed of much sooner than if the Maoris conducted their own cases ? —lf the lawyers set themselves to abbreviate the case as much as they could they would manage it much better than any of the Natives could, I believe, so far as the negotiations are concerned, and in the choosing of what evidence to bring before the Court, and what was useless. The weak part of the best Native agents is that they cannot discriminate between what is worth bringing before the Court and what is not; nor can they cross-examine; they do it at great and useless length. 167. Could not the Court ascertain by questioning the Natives upon their own claims : could not the Court ascertain satisfactorily? —I suppose it would be possible, but the Court would have to go negatively into the matter by process of exhaustion. 168. How many days did the investigation of the Waotu Block take ? —I have no idea. 169. Mr. Hobbs.] Did the lawyers assist you at Cambridge ?—The lawyers did not. I may convey my meaning better by saying, " How happy could I be with either, were t'other dear charmer away." Chief Judge Macdonald, further examined. Witness : There is one point, Mr. Chairman, I should like to refer to. So many people told me yesterday that I had said that I would grant a rehearing that I should like it clearly on record that I said I would refuse it. 170. Major Te Wheoro.] How many separate cases were there in the Waotu No. 2 ?—I could not say precisely. There xnight be three or four; but all that information can be got from the books. 171. Why I asked that question is, I wanted to arrive at a knowledge of the number of cases that v, 7ere in the hearing, and the number of those cases that were successful and the number that were unsuccessful ?—I could not possibly say from memory. Mr. Puckey will be able to give every information on that point. 172. How many lawyers were there practising in that particular case?—l think there were two. Dr. Buller had a case, I think; but lam not sure. 173. Were there lawyers conducting those cases that were defeated ?—Mr. Sheehan succeeded, and I think Dr. Buller did; but lam not sure. 174. I wanted to ask you whether you could say that those cases that did not succeed in proving their claims were represented by lawyers ?—ln a measure I have already answered that question. I think some succeeded who had no lawyers. 175. Mr. Postlethwaite.] I understand that the books and papers of the Court are on their way to Wellington. When they arrive will they be open for inspection by the Native Affairs Committee ?—Certainly.

—^ Wednesday, 25th July, 1883. Chief Judge Macdonald, examination continued. 176. Mr. Tawhai.] In your opinion, is the business of the Court got through more readily with the assistance of lawyers than without them ?—Where the lawyers applied themselves to assist the Court in that direction, I answer yes; where they were jealous of each other, and did not so assist the Court, then, of course, I answer no,