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to moneys which the Natives paid directly to third persons—not through the hands of the lawyers— of course, the Court had no control over those. That arrangement was agreed to. 102. By the Natives and the lawyers ?—The Natives had nothing to do with that question. 103. I understood that you brought the matter before the Court ?—Yes ; the first question. That was had out in open Court, and this conversation took place in Court, and was interpreted, I have no doubt. 104. Can you state to the Committee what the main sources of the heavy expense of passing land through the Court arise from ? What I mean is that it is probable this petition refers to a very extreme case —no doubt it does ; but still it is a well understood thing that the expense of passing land through the Court is excessive—is very great—and I should be glad if you can tell the Committee, so as to have it on record, what the main sources of the expenditure arise from? —I think I can name all the sources of expenditure, but I can hardly undertake to say which is the largest. First of all there are the Court fees. 105. Are the Court fees excessive ?—-No; each party pays £1 a day, 2s. for each witness sworn, and a fee on tho issue of the certificate. Then there is the 10 per cent., the lawyers' fees, the expense of attendance of witnesses, if any, and the expense of the parties attending the Court during the hearing and whilst waiting for the case to come on. 106. Hon. Mr. Bryce.] Subsistence ?—Yes. 107. The Chairman.] Has your attention being called to a report in the New Zealand Herald, and quoted by Sir George Grey in the House last Tuesday week, that you stated at the Land Court at Cambridge that after a visit to the racecourse at Auckland you had returned with a conviction that the worst practices of the racecourse were fully matched by practices around the Court ? —I saw the newspaper report, but I did not hear or see anything of Sir George Grey's remarks. 108. And did the newspaper report fairly represent what you said ?—lt was an accurate report. 109. Will you kindly state to the Committee what the practices were you referred to ?—ln the first place, my remarks have been construed, I believe, as reflecting upon the Court itself. I may say at once I had no matter relating to the Court in my mind at the time, nor do I think the words themselves will bear that construction. 110. Then, the remarks did not apply to anything.you noticed inside the Court ?—Certainly not. 111. Will you be good enough to say as to the practices outside the Court ?—The matters I had in my mind, or the causes of them, was the excessive competition for land among rival buyers, and the jealousies which that competition led to ; and the mancevvring and the way in which everybody slandered everybody else. 112. Do you mean Europeans or Natives, or both ?^More among Europeans, I think. I will give an instance of what I call everybody slandering everybody else. I will give one instance, and I think that was the final one that got my temper up and led me to say what I did. I will mention names, or not, if desired. In the first place I will just use letters. A comes to me and says, I heard it yesterday stated at the public dinner-table by B that C bribed the Assessor with a diamond ring, five-and-twenty pounds, and a double-barrelled gun. A day or two afterwards B—the person who is heard to make the statement at the public dinner-table—comes to me and says, I heard it stated publicly at the dinnertable—naming the same place as mentioned by the other gentleman, and stating the same circumstances and precisely the same articles. I thereupon said to him, That is very true, I believe, and you are the man who said it. I told him, as I had told the other gentleman—but I was. more emphatic with B—not to come to me with any more of these tales, and if he had anything to complain of to do it in open Court. Both A and B were very much dismayed at the idea of doing it in open Court, and refused. That was just the last instance of that style of thing, and, of course, what weighed in my mind with regard to all those people's tricks—hunting the Natives for their land, and playing tricks upon each other when they knew one Native had sold to go and get him to sell over again to them. 113. Have you observed what effect these practices have on the Native mind and Native conduct ?—My experience has not been great with regard to Maoris. I have no knowledge of the language. I have always heard it stated that the Natives who have little or no communication with the Europeans are described as of better moral character than those who have. 114. Hon. Mr. Bryce.] Have you observed excessive drinking about the Court ?—First of all, speaking relatively to other Courts, at Waipawa there was very little drinking; in fact, none at all. I never saw one drunken Maori all the time I was there; but there was no money passed there. 115. The Chairman.] How is it there was no money passing at Waipawa ?—Because the only land that went through there was a block for a railway-line. 116. That is, there was no competition between European buyers ?—There were no buyers at all, At Taupo and Eangipo, when the great case was before the Court, and some other cases, certainly there was infinitely more drinking there than at Cambridge during my time. But then my time at Cambridge was during the latter part of the Court, and I do not think there was so much money passing as previously. As to the previous part of it I can say nothing. 117. At Eangipo and Taupo, was there competition there amongst the land-buyers ?—There was plenty of money moving about there from parties—Europeans. No doubt, at Cambridge, during my time, when money did pass, there was a certain amount of drinking; but I could not say there was anything excessive ; certainly nothing excessive by comparison, with Taupo. 118. Hon. Mr. Bryce.] About the declaration that the lawyers make, and have to make, in respect to charges with regard to particular cases : that declaration, I understand you to say, goes to all the money paid by the Maoris to the lawyers?— Yes. 119. But in'-connection with that I understood you to say yesterday that the fight in the Court was in reality carried on by these so-called purchasers, rather than by the Maoris themselves ? I have no means of positive information, but I have a very shrewd suspicion that the Maoris do not suffer so much by lawyers' fees as it is thought, and I will explain why. In almost every case, before the land comes for investigation by the Court, the whole or part of the land has been con-