I,—2a.

hearing?— Yes. Were the case to come on again for investigation I could bring out further points in the matter which were not brought out in the original hearing. 56. What is the nature of those points—in relation to occupation, or ancestry, or what ? —They deal with, the question of ancestral claims, of permanent and continuous occupation by the claimants. 57. Did you not bring out that case of occupation—of continuous occupation—before the Court ?—Yes ; these points were brought out before the Court; but the lawyer spoke, and the Court appeared to take heed to what the lawyer said. He said that my witnesses were old men, and could not be expected to have a clear idea of what they were saying. 58. Mr. Hobhs.] Did you ever make proposals to .sell that land to these, opposite parties?—:We did receive proposals for selling. The Waikato and Cambridge Company made us offers for that land. Major Jackson was the principal man, and Mr. Sheehan was the lawyer. 59. Did you ever make any proposals to the company—did you ever ask for any money on account ? —No. 60. Nor to anybody else?—No; because we particularly wished to retain the land for ourselves. 61. The Chairman.] Is it a large block?, —Yes; and a very good block of land. Europeans desire very greatly to obtain it. 62. Son. Mr. Bryce.] You say Major Jackson made you offers of money on behalf of the company?—My allusion to Major Jackson was only in this sense : he was one of the heads of the company; but those who came to the Natives and spoke to them about the land, were Mr. Sheehan, McLean, E. B. Walker, and Moon. 63. I understood you to say that Major Jackson had offered money for the land, and Mr. Sheehan was the lawyer?—No ; I did not mean it that way ; I meant his agents, those working for the company—the lawyer, Mr. Sheehan, for instance. 64. Why did you connect Major Jackson's name with Mr. Sheehan ? —I can explain it in this way. At Cambridge, at the establishment of Robert Kirkwood, all these persons are to be met with—Major Jackson, Mr. Sheehan, and Dr. Buller. We have had occasion to go there on different occasions, and sometimes we have met Dr. Buller and sometimes Mr. Sheehan, who have spoken to us on business. We have heard that Major Jackson is at the head of the company; that is how w Te have connected the whole three. The Maoris could not separate them as belonging to different companies. 65. Mr, Hobbs.] Were there not two companies there?—We could not say whether there were two or three ; we only know of one company,, and it is a company for the purchase of Native land. 66. Major Te Wheoro.] How many separate parties of counter-claimants were there in this block ?—There may be more as written down in the books, but I can only remember four at present, the four hapus—Ngatikapu, Ngatikapuhure, Ngatihineone, and Ngatitauira. 67. How many of these sets were represented by lawyers and how many were not ?—Ngatikapu and Ngatikapuhure had lawyers, but Ngatihineone and Ngatitauira wore told by the lawyer who conducted the other cases that there was no necessity for them to give evidence —no necessity for them to speak—that he would conduct the whole case and settle it. 68. During the residence of those Natives at the place where the Court sat, who befriended them; how were they provided for in the way of accommodation .and provisions ?—I saw them myself give orders for rations, and I know the company was giving them food. I know this because I was offered, an order to get some rations for myself and hapu, and I declined to receive it. 69. When the Court gave judgment in that block, was that judgment in favour of all these hapus ?—The case of Waotu No. 2 was objected to by the real claimants, by those who sent in ■the claim for the hearing; but Mr. Sheehan prevailed upon the claimants to allow the claim of those hapus, so that, united together, they would be sufficiently strong to oppose the claim set up by our hapu, Ngatingaro. Hamiora Mangakahia was the name of the person who conducted the case of the hapu, which was objected to at first by the claimants, and the judgment of the Court was in favour of the whole of these four hapus. The land was awarded to these four hapus. Mr. Sheehan, previous to this, held three meetings, and at each meeting he proposed that we should associate ourselves with these Natives, but we always declined ; and even before the Chief Judge he asked the Court to allow him an hour to see if he could not arrange matters between his people and ours. We would not agree then, and next day he again applied to the Court to allow the matter to stand over for a certain time, until he had an opportunity of taking us to his office and trying to arrange matters with us. We would not agree. On the third day he did not come himself, but sent the chiefs of the hapus he was representing to speak to us. Our old people stood up, and would have nothing to do with them. 70. Hon. Mr. Bryce.} Have your hapu, then, no title to the land now under the certificate of the' Court?— No. 71. Mr. Tawhai.} In the petition you condemn the action of the Court in this case. Can you explain on what grounds you do so ? —I blame the Court in this way: that, when the Maoris apply to. it to disallow lawyers in the Court, to allow the Natives to conduct their own cases, the Judge would not reply to the Natives, but would ask Mr. Sheehan for his opinion, and it always rested with Mr. Sheehan whether the Court would agree or not. Another thing I thought was not right with the Court was^that, after the sitting was ended for the day, Mr. Sheehan could be seen walking with the Judge back to the one establishment where they lived together. We, the Maoris, never saw this done before in the days'of Mr. Fenton. It is only in these times we see this sort of thing done. I know it is the ge^Qral feeling amongst Natives that there is some tie between the Court and the lawyers. Judge Macdonald is the person I refer to. I observed also, in cases like ours, and many other cases I am acquainted with, that wherever the Maoris are not represented by lawyers they generally suffer —their claims suffer. And from all these things which we have frequently seen we cannot suppress our feelings. There are many other things, but I will not mention them,

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