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970. Do you think that does not matter ? —I think, as a rule, they are so bad that they cannot bo made worse. 971. Supposing a young girl committed some small offence against the law, would she be put in with a lot of prostitutes ?—We should manage to keep her separate; indeed, I may say, this is invariably done. 972. That is what I wanted to know ? —AVe keep girls apart, and also hoys. 973. Supposing it was not a girl, but a first offender of older growth, would it not still bo very injurious to her to put her in with the class of females to whom I have alluded? — AVhen wo think so wo put them apart. 974. There is no regular system then ?—No; wo do that which is considered advisable in each case as it occurs. 975. It is arranged by the special orders of Justices?— Yes ; just as occasion requires. 976. AVho is it that decides ?—The Visiting Justices and tho Gaoler. Sometimes the committing Bench forwards a request that the person sentenced may bo kept separate. In such a case tho recommendation is always given effect to. In fact, we separate when occasion requires, if it be possible. 977. You do not think a systematic classification is wanted on tho one side any more than it is on the other side?—No; we keep the women at hard labour iv washing. There are no means of classifying. 978. I know there are no means ; but you do not think it signifies ? —No ; female prisoners are generally of an age—say, between thirty and sixty —which gives no hope of their being reformed. 979. There is no difference made in Dunedin between penal servitude and hard labour ? —No. 980. Is that in your opinion advisable ? —I think it should be all the same. 981. You must understand that, in fact, that amounts to the law not beiug carried out? —AYe carry it out as well as we can. I have no reason to think that our system is a failure ; on the contrary, it works well. 952. I am not speaking of possibilities, but of what is advisable ? —AVe find it works remarkably well. 983. You think it does not matter that a man sentenced to penal servitude aud a man sentenced to hard labour should both be treated alike ? —I see no barm in it whatever. 984. AVhat do you think is the best way of teaching prisoners industrious habits ? —Employ them on public works, making roads, levelling grounds, and so on. 955. By task-work ?—No, I do not believe iv task-work. 980. You would not, then, give a man extra indulgence for doing more than an ordinary amount of work?—No ; if he does not do a sufficient amount of work, let him bo reported to the Visiting Justices, and punished for it. Our men work niue hours a day iv summer, and from daylight to dark in winter. 987. But you know, of course, there are different ways of working—while appearing to work very hard a man may skulk over his work? —It is generally known, I think, that we, in Dunedin, tako all the work out of a man there is in him. 988. You think al! the men work equally ?—Yes, according to their strength. 989. Do you think it is possible to secure that? —Yes. Of course we do not expect so much work from a weak man as from a strong man, but we calculate how much each should do, and require it of him—no more. That is far better discipline than that a man should exert his strength during a part of the day and idle about for the remainder. 990. You do not approve of men being allowed to do more than the ordinary amount of work and being paid for what tbey do extra ? You do not think that would encourage industry ?—No ; a man ought to do a certain amount of work in a day. Wo expect that from him and no more, and that is spread over the whole day. 991. How are offenders dealt with who do not work or are disinclined to work ?—AVe punish them in different ways. If you had a copy of the punishment-book you would see how we have made that gaol so deterrent that criminals are leaving the province and going elsewhere. 992. You say the men work on the roads ? —Yes, on various public works. 993. They work in different gangs?— Yes. 994. For local bodies ? —How do you meau for local bodies ? 995. For Road Boards and municipalities?— Occasionally for Road Boards. We have a gang employed working at the harbour works. 996. For the Harbour Board, then ?—Yes ; but the Harbour Board does not pay for the labour. I think it should do so. 997. That is what I wanted to know. The work is practically for the Harbour Board, and is not paid for ? —Yes. 998. And when they work on the roads, it is for the benefit of the district municipality ?—Yes. 999. Mr. Swanson ] I understand the colony pays for the gaol ? —And who pays for the colony ? 1000. Certainly not the localities, and they should not get thoir labour at the expense of tho colony ?—I made a proposition last year which I think would meet your views. It was that the whole of the Dunedin prisoners should be employed in reclaiming the land at South Harbour, and that an arrangement should be come to between tho Government aud the Harbour Board as to the amount to be paid. I think, Mr. Chairman, you, as Minister of Justice at that time, rather approved of that idea. 1001. The Chairman.] Yes. I understand at present the labour is divided into several gangs ? —Yes. 1002. Do you approve of that?— No. I should like to soc all gaols self-supporting, aud ours could and should be made so. 1003. Do you not think it leads to great expense?— Yes, Every gang must have a certain amount of supervision, and that increases the expense. My opinion is that the whole of the prisoners iv iho Dunedin Gaol should be employed upon a single public work. In America that plan of concentrating

Hon. Captain Fraser.

30th Aug., 1878,