1.—4

14

343. Is it sufficient ?—Yes. We have adopted the practice of giving the men half a pound of bread when out at their work during the middle of the day. • 344. In addition to the ordinary rations ? —I am not quite sure. 345. I may say we asked the Gaoler about this, and he said there was not too much bread given.— No, there is not too much. 346. The Gaoler at Lyttelton says there is ?—I do not think there is too much. 347. Men are, in this gaol, allowed to pass bread from one to another? —I do not think they are allowed, but it is a thing which cannot be prevented. 348. In some gaols, Lyttelton, for instance, it is prevented, and there we hear the allowance of bread is too much, bucketsful being wasted? —The gaol at Lyttelton is the most perfect in the colony as respects the arrangements for food. I cannot imagine there would be auv difficulty in securing better discipline there than anywhere else. 349. They get a meal in the middle of the day at Lyttelton as here, so that does not affect this point, which is, Is the present allowance of bread too much ?—From what I have seen I do not think so. 350. Tobacco is allowed here. Is that by order of the Visiting Justices ?—I hardly know; I hardly recollect. I dare say it is. 351. Did the Justices, in making that order, contemplate that the ration of tobacco should be served out indiscriminately to every prisoner, whether he smoked or not ? —As a matter of practice I should say, yes. It would hardly enter into our mind that there was any one who did not smoke. 352. There are some, and it amounts to this, obviously, that those who do not smoke haud their tobacco to these who do, and these get more than their fair share ?—AVell, tobacco has been regarded as a sort of necessity, and I. do not see how we could distinguish between the men. 353. The Gaoler states, iv his evidence, that a ration of a stick of tobacco a week is served out to each man—that it is not served out as required for immediate use ?—No. 354. Of course that must lead to a great breach of discipline. Men may get tobacco given them on the works, may[carry it into the gaol, and it would be almost impossible to detect them, because a man found with a quantity ou his person might say, " Oh, I have economized my allowance, and this is the result of my saving?" —Yes, now that my attention has been called to the matter I think that point should be considered. There certainly is no check. It opens up the question of allowing prisoners to work outside at all —a practice against which I have long held strong objections. 355. I presume the work done now is almost entirely done out of the gaol, and in full view of the public ? —Yes. The work at the hospital is not so objectionable, as there are very few people about there, and the place could be fenced in if necessary. The work in the streets is the most objectionable. 356. Long and short-sentence men, grave offenders and small offenders, are all alike sent to work outside together?— Yes. 357. You object to that ?—I do indeed. I may mention a case which struck me as showing that outside work has no effect as a deterrent by reason of the shame it might be supposed to produce. A hitherto very respectable young fellow some time ago was sentenced for an assault upon a young woman, and be was sent to work in Willis Street, near where the Union Bank was. I happened to pass by the first day, and I saw him working with his red shirt off. I thought he had taken it off for shame, but the next day I saw him working with the shirt on just as usual. Evidently he was not ashamed. 358. Do you know whether men who have been in gaol as first offenders are troubled after leaving the gaol by the society of their quondam fellows ? —I have great reason to believe it is so. 359. Is there any difficulty in a prisoner obtaining labour on his leaving gaol ?—None. 360. You do not think there is any necessity for a Prisoners' Aid Society ?—I would not say that, because in certain cases such a society might do a great deal of good. For instance, a man coming out might say, "If I could only get to so-and-so, I could get work ; but I have no means." That would be a good opportunity for such a society to assist him. AYe had the other day a man who wanted to go to Foxtou, but had no means. A Prisoners' Aid Society would be a very desirable institution. 361. There is none here ?—No. 361 a. Hon. Mr. Gisborne.] It would be a great advantage to get a man away from the scene of his first offence ?—Yes. 362. The Chairman.] Are prisoners allowed to see their friends ?—Yes ; once in three months. 363. Is there no distinction between prisoners who have behaved themselves well and those who behave ill in this respect ?—I do not think so. 364. Is it not according to the length of time they have served, or the marks obtained ? AVould not a first-class man be allowed to see his friends oftener ?—I have not heard it so. It is a matter we leave to the Gaoler. We have great confidence iv him. 365. Cannot a man, under the mark system, rise from one class to another ?—No. 366. Hon. Mr. Gisborne.] Do the Regulations say a man must not see his friends ? —They say he may see his friends once in three months. 367. Not oftener ? —Of course the Visiting Justices can give an order. 368. You have told us about the school ? Is there any religious instruction given ?—Not in the school. There are, of course, religious services. There is a Church of England service every Sunday morning, and a volunteer visits the prison in the afternoon and forms a class of such prisoners as choose to join him. The Roman Catholics are supposed to visit and hold services ; but, as a matter of fact, they rarely do. The accommodation is slight —the services have to be held in the corridor ; still some improvements have of late been effected. 369. Mr. Tole.] Do not any of the priests visit the gaol?— Not regularly, since Rev. Mr. O'Reilly has become so infirm. 370. Hon. Mr. Gisborne.] I understood Mr. Read to say the Roman Catholic priests came every Sunday ? —Then it must be very lately. I asked about the matter a short time ago, and was told they

Mr. Woodward.

14th Aug., 1878,