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143. What arrangements are made between the different denominations ?—There is none. There are only the two denominations, Catholic and Protestant. 144. How are the services conducted ? —AVe have a small organ, and the prisoners make responses and sing chants. The service is similar to that of the Church. 145. Hon. Mr. Gisborne.] What is the service ? Is the Liturgy read ? —lt is a precisely similar service to what you have in the cathedral. 146. Are there sermons? —Yes ; the sermon generally occupies from half-past 11 to 12. 147. Is it only the Church of England, or Noncomformists ? —lt is only the Church of England. Sometimes Archdeacon Stock officiates, and sometimes Mr. DeCastro. 148. Are there services for Dissenters ? —No; they would not be able to preach ou Sunday, because the time is fully occupied by the Roman Catholic priests and the others. Besides, Mr. Morpeth, who comes by direction of the A risiting Justices, holds a Bible class for those who like to attend; it is not compulsory. The others are compulsory, because the prison Regulations say that prisoners shall attend Divine service. 149. The Chairman.] Now, to go back to the question of classification, about which you spoke the other day. Do I understand you to say that first offenders very seldom return to the gaol here?— AVell, as a rule, very few prisoners return to the gaol. There are very few who have previous convictions recorded against them. As I mentioned the other day, there are not many men in the town who are frequently committed for petty larcenies. There are just a few, perhaps not one out of fifty of them, that are constantly coming back to gaol. The recommittals, as a rule, are very few, except, as I said before, for vagrancy and drunkenness. 150. Have you many young offenders iv the gaol? —No ; very few. 151. AVhat do you do with the young offenders when ypu get them? —Lads, I suppose you mean. 152. Yes; lads. —-All we can find to do with them is to keep them confined by themselves while the other prisoners are in, and let them out in the exercise yards when the older prisoners are out at work. AYe make them pick oakum. There is no means of keeping them apart from the other prisoners except by shutting them out. 153. Then, practically, they are not separated from the other prisoners? —Only so far as I have stated. 154. Are they separated at meals ?—Yes, we give them their meals in their cells, so as to keep them apart from the other prisoners. 155. Have they any means of communicating with the other prisoners ?—AVhen all the prisoners are locked in their cells at night they can talk from one cell to the other, and so communicate with each other. 156. Hon. Mr. Gisborne.] How ? By signals ?—No, Sir; they can speak to each other. 157. The Chairman.] Practically, then, they can talk to each other in gaol?— Yes, they can so talk with each other. For instance, if a prisoner is sentenced to solitary confinement for a time, it is a mere phrase to call it solitary confinement, because he knows all that goes on iv the gaol, and hears what takes place. It does away with the punishment altogether. If solitary confinement could be properly carried out it would be a very severe punishment, but in the gaol at present it is not solitary confinement. 15S. Is it limited by law to a certain length ? —Yes ; it must not exceed certain periods. 159. How long ?—The term, for some offences, is not to exceed fourteen days, and for others, not exceeding a month. The latter term must be for a very serious offence. 160. Now, of your own knowledge, do you know of any bad effects that have resulted from this want of separation ?—Well, I do not know that anything but bad effects can result from it, because if any man goes into gaol for the first time who has never been in before he associates with men of very bad character, and they put wrong ideas into his head. Prisoners often relate their experiences and the offences they have been guilty of to each other. 161. Do you know of any cases in which mischief has resulted from the want of proper classification ? —I do not know that 1 could name any particular cases. Ido not think I could specify more than to say that it is the natural outcome of a very bad state of things. 162. Do you know of instances of first offenders been sent back for a second offence ?—They are very rare, except for vagrancy or drunkenness. Such instances are very rare for larceny or offences of that kind. 163. Then this want of classification has not resulted in second convictions, so far as you are aware of?—No ; one can hardly tell, because it often happens that they go into another province and commit offences there. AYe have no means of knowing what occurs in the other places. 164. Do I understand you to say that in AVellington there is a very great facility for prisoners getting work the moment they come out of gaol ?—They may get work directly. 165. AVell, of course that is a very great preventive to their committing themselves and being sent back again ? —Oh, yes. As I said before, there is really no criminal class in Wellington. When I say criminal, I mean those who subsist by crime. 166. Hon. Mr. Fox.] With respect to thieves and receivers of stolen goods, have we many of that sort in AVellington ?—There are pawn-shops, but no receivers. 167. The Chairman.] Can you say whether the pawnbrokers do anything of that kind?— They do afford facilities for getting rid of stolen property. Several cases have occurred in which stolen property has been traced to pawnshops. 168. Are there many ? —Two or three. 169. Mr. Wakefield.] You say there is no criminal class in AVellington; but I understand that you have sometimes very desperate scoundrels to deal with in AVellington ?—There are roughs who commit very violent assaults, but they are not persons who live a life of crime. 170. Is not burglary a common sort of crime in AVellington ? —No. 171. I understand there have been a great many cases ? —No ; not many.

Mr. Read.

13th Aug., 1878.