BEFORE THE WAIKATO COMMITTEE.

F—No. 3

Waata Kukutai, 10 Oct. 1860.

556. Do you know Mr. Fenton ?—I do. i 557, You recollect his first going to Waikato?—Yes, I recollect his going there, 55!!. Do you mean the time when he went there as Magistrate?—l do. 559. At that time what was the feeling of the Waikato tribes about governing themselves or being governed?— They were favourable to the Government system, and also to the laws 560. Do you mean the proceedings of Government before Mr. Fenton went to Waikato?—At the time that Mr. Fenton went. 561. Were they pleased with Mr. Fenton coming to them?— They were. 562. Before he came were they desirous of having a Magistrate appointed?— They had made an application to the Governor. 563. Was the desire general throughout Upper and Lower Waikato ?—lt was. 564. Including the old Chiefs as well as the younger?—lncluding both old Chiefs and young Chiefs ; all were favourable. 565. When did they begin to desire a Maori King?— Subsequent to the Governor's visit to Waikato. 566. Was there no talk of a Maori King before the Governor went to Waikato? - There was the plans bad been laid before that. 567. How came they then to desire an English Magistrate after the Governor's visit when the plan for a Maori King bad been formerly arranged?— Those plans had been set up by one tribe, the Ngatihaua. After the Governor's visit the matter was made public, then for the first time all the people heard of it. 568. Was it at the Meeting at Paetai that the request was made to the Government for an English Magistrate?—lt was. 569. Were the Ngatihaua represented at that Meeting?—No : the Waikatos only were there. 570. By Waikato do you mean the tribes of the Upper and Lower District?— The real Waikatos commence at the mouth of Waikato, extending thence to Ngaruawahia and to the end of Whatawhata. 571. Will you mention the particular tribes you include in the term Waikato?—Ngatipou, Ngatinaho, Ngatitapa, Te Ngaungau, Ngatihae, Ngatimahuta, Ngatiteata, Ngatiahouroa, Ngatitorohinu, Ngatihape, Ngatimanoki, Ngatihorua, Ngatimahanga, Ngatiruru, Ngatihaua, s»nd many other tribes. s*/2. Were any people of the tribes you have mentioned opposed to the English Magistrate?— All were favourable to Mr, Fenton. 573. Will you give the Committee an account of the causes and objects of the Maori King movement, how it came about, and what they meant by it?-The cause was, it was following our ' mana,' lest it should be taken away by the Pakehas, lest the ' mana,' should be completely trampled upon by that of the Pakehas. This is what 1 know from the reports of the persons who saw those proceedings. 574. Where did this movement spring from?—At Paetai, it was publicly set going there. 575. Ho you mean at the great meeting at Paetai?—Yes, At the great meeting of the tribes. 576. Had there not been talk about it before?—lt had been talked about before, the tribes that talked about it were the Ngatihaua, Ngatihinetu, Ngatituwharetoa, I'atukoukou, Ngatikorohi, and Ngatimaniapoto. These were all. 577. Was there not some discontent in the minds of those tribes, that caused them to talk about a King?— Their discontent was from this, (fear) lest the ' mana' of New Zealand should altogether go to the Queen. 578. Lid they feel want of law and order among them? —They acknowledged the law, but their thought was to elect'a King for themselves, that they might have influence (' mana'). 579. How did the Maories govern themselves before they thought of establishing a King?— Before that, (the laws were) kindness, good conduct, quietness, refraining from anger towards one another, and holding the lands so as not to let them go to the Pakehas. 580. But how were evil doers punished, theft for instance?— The law for such cases was investigation, and payment was made by the evil doer. 581. How was payment taken?—lt was given by the offender, and it he did not pay, that evil doer was plundeied, 582. Do you think that was a good law? —No. 5513. Do you think the law of Europeans is better?— The Pakeha law is better. 584. Did the Natives desire to establish the Pakeha law amongst themselves?— They did. 585. Was that desire the reason why they chorea King?— Yes, they desired ihe law, and they also desired a King. Their thought was that their King should stand, but that there should be one law, that the law of the Pakeha should be administered jointly to the Pakeha and Maori races. 586. Was it their desire to have a Maori King to administer for them English laws, to have one law for both races under the Queen? —Their real desire was this, that their King should stand as their King, but that there should be one law. 587. What do they mean the work of the King to be?—To take care of the Pakehas and Maories, to be kind to them, and to suppress the evil of malefactors amongst the Maories. 588. How was he to punish evil doers?— Wait, allow me to think, 1 cannot give ready replies before you Pakehas, lest I. should err in my statement—(a pause.) —The punishment inflicted by the King would be, the King would hold his land, that the disorderly person might feel the effects of his offence, (and say) " It was because of my offence that my lands were taken." 589. If one law were made for the Maori as well as tor the Pakeha under the Queen, would the Maories be satisfied, anil afraid of carrying it out, and agree to do away with the King? —They

35