REPORT OF COMMITTEE ON PENSIONERS' PETITION

Votes and Proceedings of the House of Representatives, 1855 Session I

REPORT OF COMMITTEE ON PENSIONERS' PETITION

(ORDERED TO BE PRINTED, SEPTEMBER 11, 1855.)

I. The Committee appointed to consider the Pensioners' Petition, report as follows :— 2 Your Committee have limited their enquiry, as far as the nature of the subject would admit, to so much of the petition as relates to the civil grievance complained of, namely,—alledged breaches of agreement respecting the cottages and acres of land promised to the Petitioners to be ready for them on their arrival in the Colony. 3. They have examined certain of the Petitioners and append the evidence taken. 4. With the exception of one witness, Col - Gray, the evidence of the Petitioners has been merely ex parte. 5. The officer commanding the Pensioner Corps declined to take part in the investigation, on the ground that the subject of complaint concerned the military, and not the civil authorities. 6. The main fact which may be considered as established is, that the promise of a cottage and acre of land, on arrival, formed part of the contract between the Government and the Petitioners, on the strength of which they came to the Colony ; and that such promise, unless in a few late and isolated cases was not, and in some instances never has been fulfilled. 7. But your Committee would observe that although the clearest breach of agreement was, the neglect to place the men in immediate possession of their cottages and acres, the most serious grievance, and that which calls the most imperatively for the interference of the Colonial Executive, is the depriving them of cottages and acres, and even placing them under stoppages to the whole amount of their passage money, for absence from parade through sickness, and notwithstanding the production of sick certificates. • 8. Your Committee can recognize no conditions with the men, excepting those under which they were actually enrolled. 9. They find an engagement to confer certain advantages in requital of certain military duties. 10. They believe that absence from parade under sick certificate, cannot be construed into a non-performance of duty. 11. The reception of a sick certificate in excuse being, as they believe, so invariabe, as to have become a custom, and therefore incident to the conditions under which the men were enrolled. 12. And the Colony is bound in loyalty and good faith to carry ont the Queen's engagements, in all cases where it cannot be shewn that the military duties iaterpreted according to the usual rules of military service, have been unfulfilled. 13, Your Committee moreover feel bound to add, that as the unanimous testimony of the witnesses examined by them, establish the fact thac the Crown in the first instance failed to perform the condition under which the Pensioners were

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; it becomes a question deserving the serious consideration of the Exeeulve Government, whether the breach of agreement on the part of the Crown, should not exempt the ensiuners from a too strict and literal interpretation of the contract in respect of the service they were required to render. 14. As to cottages and land not being provided for the Pensioners on arrival according to the terras of the contract your Committee suggest, whether it may not be proper to enquire whether that fact has, or has not been brought to the notice of the liome Authorities, and how it has been dealt with by them. 15. Your Committee do not think that they could themselves prosecute their enquiry further with any useful result; but they are of opinion that the subject may properly be brought under the consideration of the Executive Government. 16. 1 hey would add as a final remark, their earnest hope that this investigation and report, may not have the effect of raising expectations in the minds of the petitioners which may be disappointed* HENRY SEWELL, Chairman.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE COMMITTEE APPOINTED TO CONSIDER THE PENk SIONERS' PETITION. FRIDAY, AUGUST 31st, 1855. Present — Messrs. Carlelon Messrs. Mackay Taylor Forsailh Mr. Sewell—Chairman. On motion of Mr. Carleton, the following Petition was read: — Auckland, August 17th, 1855. To the Honorable the Speakers and Members of the Honorable the House of Representatives. The humble petition of Her Majesty's, the undersigned, veteran Pensioners— Most respectfully sheweth- that they have spent the flower of their age and life in their country's service, and that in consideration thereof they were awarded a pension in proportion to their respective service, which pension they should not be deprived of unless they were convicted of felony, or guilty of gross violence or outrage towards the persons employed in paying pensioners. Your petitioners further shew (hat by proclamation in the War Office Circulars in the years 1847-48-49 they were encouraged to emigrate with their famalies to this Colony, and certain rewards held out to them for doing so, as will be seen on reference to their printed instructions on that head, and other documents in their possession, which will prove to your Honorable House that faith has been broken with them, and that uncalled for coercive and vindictive measures have been substituted and resorted to, instead of boons as intended by their most gracious Sovereign and liberal country. Such treatment had never a precedent in any branch of Her Majesty's service. Punishment inflicted, pensions suspended, and not permitted to petition the higher authorities, or much less to speak in defence of their rights, or appeal to a Court of Enquiry. Your humble petitioners now pray that the Representatives of the People in your Honorable House, will entertain the prayer of their petition, and grant them a Commitlee of Enquiry, in whose presence they will be permitted to vindicate their rights and satisfy the Committee of your Honorable House, that they have fulfilled on their part, as long as they were permitted, the several duties imposed on them by their respective engagements in coming to this Colony, and that they have not forfeited by any misconduct of theirs, their pensions, which have been suspended, nor the cottage and acre, which they have been expelled from. For which favor your humble and obedient servants, now Her Majesty's civil subjects, electors in the Town and Suburbs of Auckland, shall ever pray. John Bolton, formerly Serjeant in H.M. 16th Regt. Edward Hynes, late Color Serjeant 23rd R.W. Fusilliers, Matthew McCormick, late 25th Kegt. Foot, John Hoop, late Serjeant 39th Regt.

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Question put—That Dr. Bacot be called in and examined. Agreed to. Dr. Bacot examined ; —1 was Staff Assistant Surgeon in the army, attached to the Pensioner force in medical charge. I have been in New Zealand seven vears, attached to the Pensioner force. I know the Regulations under which the Pensioners came out. (Regulations produced.) Question put—That Sergeant Hoop be examined. Agreed to. John Hoop, late Sergeant in the 39th Regiment of foot, examined. I came to New Zealand in 1848. At that time I was a Pensioner. I was discharged in 1845. 1 have my discharge. (Discharge produced, with testimonial of good character.) Afler 1 left the service I took a Public House in Liverpool, and kept it tor twelve months then gave it up, removed to Belfast in Ireland and opened a shoemaking shop. There 1 enrolled mpself in the New Zealand Fencibles. Was married and had no children, I have none. My wife came with me. "When I went to receive my pension in 1847 a card was posted up for volunteers for the New Zealand Fencible Service. The conditions were posted up, one of the conditions that I should have a cottage and acre of land on my arrival, one fourth of which should he cultivated. The Regulations now produced and printed were those under which L volunteered. I have no matter of complaint on account of anything before my arrival in New Zealand. I have complaints to make after my arrival. I was not put in possession of my cottage and acre. On my arrival 1 applied to my Commanding Officer, Lieutenanant Hickson for my cottage and acre of land (He was the Officer of the detachment.) He told me there was none for me. I applied to Lieutenant Hickson for leave to remain in Auckland to follow my business. I obtained leave. I followed my business of a shoemaker and hare done so ever since. 1 provided my own lodgings and house room at my own cost. I preferred slopping in Town. I considered it preferrable to stop in Town to going to one of the distant Pensioner Villages. Otahuhu was the Village to which I was assigned. There was no house for me there. 1 never had any grievance to complain of (ill Major Kenny came. That was about three years afterwards. I considered that the advantage oflivingin Town and carrying on my business was equivalent to immediate occupation of my cottage, but I looked forward to having my cottage and acre when the proper time came. Whilst I was in Auckland I did some military duties. I went out to Otahuhu, helped Sergeant McAnulty to drill a company previous to going le Onchuuga to be inspected. That was the first inspection. This was annual duty.

SATURDAY, Ist SEPTEMBER, 1855. Present— Messrs. Carleton Messrs. Forsaith Taylor Mackay Mr. Sewell —Chairman John Hoop—Examination continued I had still to continue my Sunday parade at Otahuhu. On the 18th September, 1850,1 addressed the memorial to his Excellency praying to be excused from attending church parade at Otahuhu (produced a copy of the memorial) I forwarded the memorial through Lieutenant Hickson. Hehadtoforit through Major Kenny. Major Kenny refused to forward it. 1 never received an answer to it. 1 received an answer from Major Kenny that he would not forward it. He reccommended me to lake my discharge from the force, and that 1 should get off by paying 15?. I sent in through Lieutenant Hickson sick certificates, both before and after sending in my memorial. (Copies of certificates produced.) I was at that time suffering from rheumatic gout. lam occasionally still ; I was too unwell to walk to Otahuhu ; it is about nine miles there, and nine miles back. I was unable to perform that duty. I sent in a medical certificate which Major Kenny refused to receive. I received from my Commanding Officer intimation that I must do one of three things, either attend my duty, receive my discharge, or be dismissed. I conceived that it ■would be best to submit to the alternative of paying for my passage and getting my discharge, I was forced to do this. I never made a remonstrance, I waited for time. [ am not aware of anything in the Regulations to prevent my appealing to the civil authorities. 1 signed a document giving up all claims on the Government; 1 never kept a copy of it ; Ido not remember its contents. It was to the effect that I gave up all claim on the Government; I did not understand that I hereby gave up my claim to the collage and acre. 1 was obliged to sign the paper, Major Kenny told me if I did not sign il that 1 should be dismissed from the force. That induced ine (o sign it. There are some advantages belonging to the service which I understood I was giving up ; I did not understand 1 was giving up my cottage ?nd acre. When my seven years was up 1 applied to Lieutenant Hickson to be put in possession of my cottage and acre. He

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told me I musl apply to Head Quarters. 1 did so. I applied to Major Kenny, never revived any reply. 1 made out a memorial to Governor Wynyard, requesting him to put me in possession. I remember his answer, that he could do nothing for me, that I had given up all claim. I was never put in possession of my cottage and acre. I was told off an acre, and I ditched it and paid for the part cultivation, part was done by the Government, half was uncultivated. I paid for a quarter. I paid the Sergeant 12s. for the cultivation of the extra quarter one. I never got possession of it. By Mr. Carleton Q. At the lime Major Kenny succeeded to the command had you any indulgence from Lieutenant Hickson? A. I had. Q. Was (bat withdrawn from you by Major Kenny ? A. Yes. Q. Was it after or before you had sent in a sick certificate that you were reduced from your rank of Sergeant ? A. After. _ Q- Did Major Kenny threaten you that unless you put in your resignation in writing to any claim on the Government he would have you slruck off the Pensionlist altogether ? A. He did. Q. On What occasion was this ? A. On several occasions. Q- What was the name of the medical Officer who signed your certificate? A. Dr. Philson of the 58th Regiment. Q. As long as you have been in the service were you ever aware of a sick certificate not being sufficient excuse for non-attendaece at parade? A. Never, a Doctor's certificate is enough upon any parade. Even a review parade. Q. Are you aware of any instructions from the War Office, to slop pensioners passage money in case of their being deprived of their cottage and acre ? A. There is none in my agreement but I have heard of such. Copy of« letter from Lieutenant Hickson, New Zealand Fencibles, to John Hoop, New Ztaland Fencible Sergeant, Sergeant John Hoop, Otahuhu, July 17, 18S1. Your certificates of continued illness can no longer exempt you from the performance of military duly. I have therefore to repeat what I have already informed you that you must select one of the following alternatives, namely, to perform your duty, as an enrolled pensioner ef the New Zealand Fencibles, or to withdraw therefrom by the terms prescribed by the Secretary of War, or to incur the penalty of dismissal from the force in the event of your continuing to neglect yonr duly. (Signed) J. 11. Hickson, Staff Officer. John McAncltv, To be signed and returned by Sergeant Hoop. (Signed) John Hoop. COPY OF MEMORANDUM. 4th Division, Ist Battalion N. Z. F. Memorandum. With reference to No. 2 of Battalion orders dated Onehunga, 7th August, 1801, Pensioner John Hoop is hereby requested to attend at Olahuhu with as little delay as possible, for the purpose of handing over to Lieutenant Hickson (he arms, clothing, accoutrements, etc., of a Sergeant's appointments in his charge, for the use of his successor Daniel Wrighl, and of receiving those of a private. This memorandum is to be forwarded by the first opportunity to private John Hoop by whom it will be signed and returned. (Signed) J. H. Hickson, „ Staff Officer. (Signed) John Hoop, Olahuhu, August 12th, 1851. To his Excellency Sir George Grey K. C. B, Governor in chief ofNew Zealandand its dependencies, etc., etc., etc. The memorial of John Hoop, late Sergeant of the 39th Regiment. Now belonging to Lieutenant Hickson's company, Ist battalion New Zealand pensioners.

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r™™ T T ha „ ( ?T ™ m orialist on landing in (he colony at Auckland obtained permission from Lieulenant Hickson (o reside in (own in consequence of which he allotment of ground ,n Queen-street, and built a house and shop on it at an expense of . ~T hs ? is obliged to walk to Olahuhu every Sunday for the purpose of attending church parade (a journey of about 14 miles.) "purpose That your memorialist most humbly begs that your Excellency mav take hi, „ into your kind consideration and have him excused from attending church narL? Otahuhu as it is a great journey on (he Sabbath day. ° P ar ade at That your memorialist never omitted attending Divine Service during iho r u was allowed to parade in Auckland and will always continue so to do every SundaVif excused from going to Otahuhu. J it Your memorialist most humbly prays that your Excellency will grant this bk ™ quest, and your memorialist as in duty bound will ever pray. (Signed) John Hoop, To his Excellency, Hth September, 1830. Sir George Grey. (Letter enclosing Petition to his Excellency Sir George Grey.) Honored Sir, I humbly beg that you will forward through (he proper channel to his Excellency Sir George Grey, K. C. B„ Governor of New Zealand, etc., the enclosed memorial "Your most humble and obedient servant, To Lieutenant Hickson, (Signed) JoH>i " 00p - Otahuhu, 1 Bth September, 185'0. Question put—That John Bollon be examined. Agreed to John Bolton—l served in two Regiments 20 years altogether", was last in the lfilh Infantry, was discharged in the year 1801. Was a Sergeant the greater part of the limp had been reduced to a private. Was a private when discharged. Discharge nrorf. Character good. I landed in New Zealand, in May 18S2 About Novemberlßsl volunteered into the Fencible pensioners, under (he printed regulations produced' Ihe promise held out by the regulations induced me to come. Brought mv wife and family, 3 children, one 12, a girl 8, and an infant 2 months. When I arrived in New Zealand in May 1852. Major Kenny came on board, we were mustered on deck Major Kenny said to us, that any of us who were tradesmen might stop and see if we could get suitable employment in Auckland. I asked Captain Haultain an Officer who came on board with Major Kenny, whether providing I was to put my name down to stop in the town if 1 should still be allowed to have my cottage and acre. I understood him to say yes, and that we should be assembled at Onehunga some time afler By the Chairman :— Q. Did Major Kenny promise you should not forfeit your right to your collate and acre of land by slopping in Auckland? A. He did. I stopped in Auckland about three weeks or so. We were then ordered to attend on parade at Major Kenny's office at Onehunga. I attended. He said to me, " any of you men who put your names down to slop in town, (Aucklandj 1 will give you another chance you shall not lose yourcollage and acre of land bystoppingin the town." The pracfice was this. When first we landed we all of us had to draw lor what settlement we should go to. Some drew for one settlement some for another. I and some others did not draw at all considering (hat it might be better worth while to slop in the town and follow my trade lhan to go to one of the settlements. By the Chairman: — Q. Did you understand that by not drawing for one of the settlements you gave up your right to your coltage and acre of land ? A. I underslood that 1 did not, because Major Kenny said, he would see us another day, and if we did not like the'town he •would put us in possession of our cottage and acre of iand. Examination continued :— About three weeks afler the parade at Onehunga we were ordered to parade at Panmure, there to be settled and to receive parts of our pensions. I appeared there and alter being settled with by Captain Haullain. I asked him in what settlement I was to have my cottage and acre of land, he said, you will go to Howick to Captain Smilh be will tell you off a cottage and acre of land, and you may thank yourself for your impertinence in addressing M"jor Kenny on landing or you would have had your coltage and acre of land in Onehunga. I went (he following Friday to Captain Smilh ai

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Howick. He said he was very busy (hat day, he could not pul me in possession, lhat Sunday, if I -would come next Sunday he would. I returned on (he following Sunday, begged him again (o put me in possession, be said I was a great annoyance. I should have it next Sunday. He was not prepared to tell me off my collage and acre. I went again the third Sunday. Ho said you must come some other lime, lam not ready. I then said, " will you give me permission to absent myself from parade for 2 or 5 Sundays as the journey was so long." He said, " 1 will give you no liberty from parade, but if you think proper you can parade in Auckland." I considered it a great favour. I continued to parade in Auckland some months. On hearing that Captain Smith was on (he point of going to England. I spoke to him 6or seven times, begging him to put me in possession of my cottage and acre of land. He told me I was a very troublesome character. Why did I not take my cottage and acre when I first arrived. He left me in the street and never gave me any other answer. I never got my cottage and acre. I never applied to Major Kenny. I understood il was of no use. He would give no answers to applications. I continued parading regularly at the barracks in Auckland, till within 6 months ago, when I discontiuued. There was no one to parade us, no one to call over the roll, neither officer O! non-commissioned officer. After Captain Smith left, CaptMcDonald got charge of the Auckland force, he came in from Howick to parade. We were not there for the first three Sundays. The 4th Sunday some of the pensioners saw him coming, and made Ihe best of their way to the barracks. I did not happen to to be one, was consequently absent (he 4th Sunday. I and several others were struck off the force and put under stoppages. I afterwards saw Captain McDonald and went on parade. He told me he was sorry for me, he would reccommend me to Major Kenny for reinslatement. I asked if he would require me to attend parade regularly for the future as I was struck off. He said, the report was not given to (he Horse Guards yet, and if anything would soolheildown it would be my regular attendance at parade. I attended regularly till the next pension day, when I went for my pension to Captain McDonald. He said, " your pension is stopped, you'll only get half your pension for not attending at parade." I told him it was a great punishment, as there had been no parade formed for some months previous to his taking command, and if he had given a caution that we were to atlend regularly, I would attend regularly. He said, 1 will now give the caution any of the men who are absent from this time I will report and they will be struck off. I never got my cottage and acre of land. Committee Meeting, September 3rd, 1855. Present : Mr. Carleton, Mr. Taylor Mr. Sewell —Chairman. The Chairman read the following copy of letter from Major Kenny. Major Kenny presents his compliments to the Chairman of Ihe Commillee ap« pointed by the House of Representatives to examine into and report upon certain alleged grievances contained in a Petition from Enrolled Pensioners of the New Zealand Fencibles, and, in thanking the Chairman for his courteons note of the 31st August, requests he will have (he goodness to furnish him with a cops of the Pelition in question, as Major Kenny is not aware of any civil rights and privileges to which the Pensioners of Ihe New Zealand Fencibles, as stich, are entitled, excepting those which are contingent upon the performance by them of certain military duties under the condilions on which they were engaged for service In New Zealand. If the alleged grievances of Pensioners to which the Chairman has alluded in his nole, are those to which reference has been made in the local newspapers, Major Kenny regrets to say that it would be inconsistent with his position to be present at an enquiry into grievances which, even on the assumption that they had any exislence would fall solely under the urisdiclion of the Right Honorable the Secretary at War. Onehunga, Ist September, 1855. Question put, That Major Kenny be furnished with a copy of the Petition. Agreed to. Question put, That the examination be renewed, and that Joseph Symes be called in. Joseph Symes, examined—l am a corporal in the New Zealand Fencibles service. I came to New Zealand in 1837, in October. I was living in Ireland in that year. I signed articles (o serve in the New Zealand Fencibles service, I think on the 50lh June in that year, 1 served in the 2nd Dragoon Guards. My discharge is dated the 17th

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June, 1847. Discharge produced. Character good. I then went to my business as a tailor at Limerick. Continued in that about 5 years, until the enrollment of the local torce. I went into the local force, remained there (ill 1847, when 1 volunteered to come to Aew Zealand. I first learnt that a volunteer corps was to be formed when on parade at Limerick. The regulations were frequently resd to us by the Staff Officers. Great promises were held out to us. The regulations produced are the same as those I came out under. Ihe promise of a cottage and acre of land was one of the inducements to me—till I arrived in New Zealand, I expected this cottage and acre. When 1 arrived found no cottage ready. as obliged to lie on the fern, or under a wooden shed. My family were with me, a wife and six children. I only occupied that shed for a few days. Witness puts in a written statement. Question put, that said statement be entered on the minutes. Agreed to. Statement to follow. Auckland, August 29th, 1835. Statement put in by Joseph Symes. On the Pensioners arriving at their respective settlements from ship board, it was my lot to be sent to Howick, some fifteen miles from Auckland. The day after our arrival there, I applied to my SUff Officer for leave to proceed to Auckland to procure employment that would enable me to support my family as 1 being a tradesman, could not do so working at road making. 1 received for answer that no man should leave the settlement until the different roads planned out should be completed. Milhin a few days after, His Excellency the Governor visited our settlement, I appealed to him for leave as on a former occasion to my Staff Officer. His Excellency granted me leave to proceed to Auckland, which 1 did the same day. A few days after, an order was read to me that I was to attend Divine service parades with the troops in garrison, which order I strictly complied with. Some short time after I was employed by a person who sent me to attend to an order from His Excellency Governor Grey relative to work required (my trade being that of a tailor l , His Excellency knew me and inquired, had I got employment, 1 replied in the affirmative, he replied that he was pleased at it, and shewed an interest in my welfare. I thought it a good opportunity to state that as to a certain degree I was a soldier, and as the indulgence he was kind enough to favour me with, may some day be wrested lrom me, I begged he >vould be pleased to give a written pass under his hand, which would be strong in my favour under almost any circumstances. His Excellency without the least hesitation signed a pass to the effect that I had leave to reside in Auckland to attend Divine service parades with the troops in garrison, and that I should attend the periodical drills when called on so to do and that I should be in possession of this indulgence without I should abuse it. On the strength of this indulgence, I made it my object to select from several opportunities presenting themselves to enter into business. My first was to select respectable masters for my three eldest sons, and am glad to say I succeeded. I next entered into business of my own trade, when some months after I received from my Staff Officer an order to attend Divine service parades at Howick, and (hat the indulgence granted by Sir George Grey was no good, Major Kenny having cancelled all such. The intelligence overwhelmed me, I knew not what to think, T read my pass over and over and certain that I had not abused the indulgence it conveyed, I was determined to stand to its meaning. 1 was threatened by Major Kenny, by my Staff Officer, if I absented myself a certain number of parades, (I think three) I should be dismissed the force, deprived of my cottage and acrc of laud, besides, pay the whole amount for bringing my family to New Zealand. I found only one alternative, to address His Excellency the Governor, a memorial to address His Excellency the Governor was got up and signed by about 14 men situated similarly to myself, but before a reply could reasonably be expected, I for one was dismissed the force and subject to all the penalties attached. 1 then wrote a most respeciful memorial to Sir George Grey and enclosed the pass he gave me on a former occasion, imploring him to take my case into consideration, reminding him I was in business in Auckland ; and my three sons so situated that a father's eye was required to keep (hem from bad company and vice, and to think what a pecuniary loss I should sustain by throwing up my business then looking promising and going to reside at the settlement, or starting every Sunday morning lo miles, and having a navigable river to cross to and from that settlement and in all weathers, my constitution could not support such exertion at my age, and waiting with great anxiety a favourable reply.

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I beg lo slate there exists in (he new regulations a clause speaks tlius — "If a Pensioner shall be dismissed the fores for misconduct, and hissubsequent conduct shall entitle him to be recommended, he may be reinstated." On the strength of this clause. I applied to my Slaff 0 ixer begging the favour to be «o recommended, he complied with my request in Ihe strongest language, as also did the officer commanding the battalion in my favour, (hey both recommended me to be reinstated, but Major Kenny refused the recommendation saying he would not undo anything he had done. Some months after this I was ordered lo appear at Major Kenny's residence at Onehunga, to hear some papers real relative to my dismissal, on my part I was expecting a favourable reply to my memorial to Sir George Grey. On my arrival there, 1 found a number of pensioners for (he same purpose, we were brought into a large room, Major Kenny began with these words — "Now men, I will not allow any one of you lo say one word, and if one of you attempt lo say anything I will turn him from the room and find means to punish him for such conduct." On the following pay day, I was (old, my pension would be paid only in part deductions were ordered to pay for the passage of my family, to the amount of about sevenly pounds sterling. I slated (o my Slaff Officer I doubled Major Kenny's power to slop any part of my pension, I refused lo take any without all, consequently I have received no pension for the last four years. I beg lo slate in conclusion, I never received any intimation that Sir George Grey replied to my last memorial containing my pass which I forwarded through the Post Office (o Wellington. Joseph Symes, Pensioner from the 2nd Dragoon Guards. 6d. per diem. Wyndham slreet, Auckland, Examination continued. —About 18 months afler I had been here I was put in possession of a cotlage at Howick. I was put in possession of my acre about C months after my arrival, no part of il was cleared, I cleared it myself, some men were sent to assisl me in clearing it, and were paid by the Government, that was to fulfill the contract for Ihe Government lo clear a part of the land, I subsequently cleared (he whole myself. AI the expiration of about a year 1 went to Howick lo try to live there. I had not my collage assigned lo me. I got materials and built a hut for myself. When the hul was ready my family and three children were wilh me, three I left in town, i continued in this hul till some six months afterwards, when my cotlage was given me. I returned lo reside in Howick about two years. I carried on my business as a tailor. I used lo go to Auckland to get work and carry (he work back io Howick Somelimes I used lo stop a week in Auckland at work, at last I lound I could not live in the Settlement under the circumstances the work did not support my family. I got leave from my Staff Officer to proceed to Auckland again, which I did. That was about two years after I had gone lo Howick. The permission was nol in writing, he told me by word ofmoulh "Go by all means," and lo leave my address with him so that if he wanted me he might know where to find me. He told me I was lo attend parade at Auckland as on the lormer occasion as under Sir George Grey's permission. When I left Howick 1 locked my coltage up. My sons assisted me in cultivating the piece of land. We used to go from Auckland to Howick to work on the land. 1 continued to attend parade at Auckland. I had not been in town above Ihree weeks when 1 received an order by my Slaff Officer requiring me lo allend Divine Service parade at Howick, I relied on Ihe liberty I had before. It was then thatl stale, 1 was overwhelmed wilh the intelligence and I resolved to abide by my first indulgence. I was dismissed after having served four years out of the seven. My collage and land were taken from me. It is now occupied by another pensioner. I have applied for it, they refused to give it up. By Mr. Carlelon Q. \\ as it part of your agreement in England lhat you should reside continuously on your acre of land ? A. It was never pointed out to me. Q. Are you aware of any instructions issued from the War Office to stop men's passage money in case of their being deprived of their coltage and acre ? A. No. By Mr. Taylor— What induced you to ask Sir George Grey for indulgence ? A. I believed that he, as Governor, had the power lo grant indulgence. By Mr. Mackay— W hat is the amount of your pension ? A. Six pence per diem. By Mr. TaylorDid you believe lhat your agreement had been fulfilled by your being sent lo

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Howick, a distance of about IS miles from Auckland ? A. Certainly not we supposed the distance would be 5 miles from Auckland. supposed By the Chairman— ci^nh ha li PaS f?- e ' n l J? e R ®S ulations ,ed y°u 'o form that belief? A. Iso understood the Regulations when they were read to me. By Mr. Carleton— not b!i D d g a ready D ? Sioner O,TiCCr rCfUSe to 8 ° t0 his Stalion ' on ,he of his house Question put, Whether the above question be put, nt N w es ; Ayes. Mr. Mackay, Mr . Carleton. Mr. Taylor, The Chairman. Question not put. Matthew McCormick—Was private in the 25th Foot. Left the armv in i>un r was enrolled in England for the New Zealand Fencible Corps in 1847. arrived in Auck land in November of that year. Got copy of printed conditions before embarking n England. I was told off to the village of Howick. Did not get my cottage and ac e of land. Was put into a weatherboarded shed with my wile and one Sl .i this I was told off lo an acre, where I built a raupo hut It my expense as mv wS was about being confined. Continued to attend Sunday parades for 15 month™ After that time 1 got eave from Major Gray to reside in Auckland and attend the usual parades there, which I did constantly for three years, besides the drill of 12 days each year. After that period Major Kenny got the command, when he gave an order that any man who was four Sundays absent in a quarter should forfeit his acre and cot as well as pay for he passage of himself wife and family out to the colony I have been deprived of n.y collage and acre of land. J ttu Edward Hynes-I was Serjeant in the 23rd Royal Welsh Fusileer* dkrW,™,i • November, 1842. Volunteered into the New Zealand Fencible ServTee S « Penbroke Dock, S. Wales. Was Staff Drill Serjeant to the Royal Dockyard Pembroke. I got 2s 4.1 (two shillings and four pence) a day besides my pension Was induced to come to New Zealand by circulars from the Horse Guards thall might makef home for myself and my childrsn. Had a wife and three children. I expected mv and acre of land. Would not have come otherwise. Arrived in New sin. 1849. Did not get my collage and acre. There were no collages built for (he comnanv i belonged to nor land set apart Was appointed for Onehunga. 1 applied continually for two and a half years or my collage and acre. Never got it. The last petition the v con sidered was an insult and on (hat account they struck me off, and put me under si,™ pages of my pension. I lived in Auckland the whole time in my own house at ™ own expense bought the land and built the house myself. 1 performed militarv w,.; at Onehunga. I had to walk there and back every day on drill days w's occasion ally ill. was never absent from drill for three successive Sundays for the two » half years. Discharge produced. Very good character. " o and a By Mr. Carleton—Q. Were you sometimes absent from parade at Onehunga ? A. I was fometimes siCii absent. Q. Had you a sick certificate ? A. Yes, I had one signed by Dr. Fox, PM 0 another from Dr. Matthew. ' • l*. Q. Were you ever aware of a sick certificate not being sufficient excuse for nonattendance at parade? A. It was always a sufficient excuse. By Mr. Taylor— O. Were you ever offered to be put in possession of your collage and acre ' A At the end of about two years, on a pension day, Capt. Haullain told me that mv rnt ' tage wasnowput up at Onehunga, and thalany day Ichose to lake my family oul I mi"hi get the key. Neither flooring nor chimney were in. J told him as soon as 'the floor and chimney were m 1 would come. It was never offered me again. I enauired X it, afterwards, but was soon afterwards dismissed. enquired after Question put, That Col. Gray's evidence be taken. Lieut.-Col. Gray examined.—l came out in command of the Pensioner For™ J am aware of the Regulations, and thai it was one of the conditions that the pension ers should have a cottage and acre of land on arrival, thai condition was not fulfill,',l for a considerable time alter their arrival—in no instance. The earliest d ile at which any of the pensioners received (heir collage was about 5 or G months afler arrival During the intermediate lime they were housed in sheds erected al Ihe expense of Government, weather boarded not shingled, neither wind nor watertigh Their wives

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anil families were all in the same place. They were so bad that I applied for native raupo whares to be built for them instead, which was done by the men themselves, with some native assistance, the men receiving usual wages. They suffered great dis-« comfort. There was an understanding with the men that they should not be placed at a greater distance than five miles from a place where they could obtain employment, that the opportunity of employment should be placed within their reach within a distance of five miles. At the distant settlements there was no such opportunity of employment many of the pensioners came into Auckland in consequence lo obtain employment. I decided that the men in Auckland should attend Divine Serviee theie, that was considered to be in lieu of their attendance at Iheir respective villages. William Butcher—Was discharged from the Grenadier Guards in 1844. Discharge exhibited. Character very good. Joined the New Zealand Fencible Corps at Tilbury Fort, in August, 1844, and arrived in Auckland in November of that year, was told off lo the village of Howick with Major Gray's Company. I got my cottage and acre in June or July the following year. I was one of the first who got their cottages. I have attended all the parades up lo the month of November, 1848. I was dismissed the force in December of that year owing to a trilling dispute about the sum of Is. 6d. (one shilling and six-pence) between me and one of the Sergeants who was an overseer over the road parly. In consequence of this 1 lost my collage and acre, and was put under stoppages for myself and wife to pay for our passage out. John Hardy.—l was a privale in the Ist Royals for seventeen years, and discharged in 1844. Was enrolled a private in the New Zealand Fencible Corps, at Glasgow, in May of (he same year. (Character very good and possessed of two good conduct badges.) When I arrived at Auckland, was posted lo the pensioner village at Howick, and had to live with my wife and five daughters for several weeks in a weather-boarded shed. I got my acre in about five weeks after reaching Howick, and then got a raupo whare my share of which cost 11, ss. in which 1 lived with my family for nearly two years. After that time I got into my cottage. I never missed a parade in Howick when living there. I lived (here for about four years. After thai I got leave to come to Auckland because I could not get bread for my family at Howick. Wet and dry, when able from my slate of health, 1 went lo Howick from Auckland to attend parade and Divine Service. I attended regularly until within G months of the period of my service being up. During part of this time I was laid up with Rheumatism and Dysentry. I was fully seven weeks ill of these complaints. I got a sick certificate from Dr. Thompson of the 58th Regt., which I expected would have excused me from attending parades. Capt. Smith the commanding officer at Howick refused taking the certificate, because Dr. Thomson did not belong to the force. I then walked out to Howick to get a certificate from Staff Surgeon Bacot which was not refused, but Major Kenny sent for metoOnehunaa. When 1 went there, seeing that I was not fit for duty,he told me I would not be required any more and I will invalid you myself, this was said in the presence of Capt. Smith. I was then ordered to give up the key of my cottage, arms and accoutrements, and clothing. I gave up these things accordingly. I was excused the payment of the passage money for myself and family. A few weeks after 1 was invalided M"jor Kenny sent word by Captain Smith to me, thai I might have thekey of my cottage lo go and live in, if 1 found Ihe renls too high in Auckland. When I went lo Howick lo get the key it "vas refused me by Captain Smith until he could see Major Kenny again. When 1 saw the Major he would not lislen to me, so I came away and have so lost my collage and acre. Moved by Mr. Carleton, and carried, That the evidence be now closed, and the Committee do adjourn to 11 o'clock to-morrow. FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 7tii, 1855. Present — Messrs. Seweli Messrs. Forsailh Carlelon Mackay Moved by Mr. Carlelon— That Ihe evidence be re-opened. Carried. Privale Henry Ashurst examined—Discharged September, 1842. Character very good. Arrived in New Zealand in 1847. Belonged to Captain Smith's Company. Was not put in possession of cottage and acre on arrival. Was put in possession of cottage and acre at Howick in the latter part of Ihe year, 1848. The cottage and acre were subsequently taken from me. He refuse t» give up the key, consequently tbe door was broken open. Was in the sick report, and unable lo attend parade. Had sick certificates from Dr. Thompson of the SSlh Regt- and from Dr. Matthew attached

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to (hat Regt. Sent these certificates to Howick. Was fined for non-attendance at parade. Dr. Thompson's certificates were received for a lime, for five years and upwards ; after (hat time Major Kenny would not allow Dr. Thompson's certific?tes (o be received. The cottage and acre was taken away because I was unable to attend parade through sickness. I was placed under stoppages to the amount of 451, for passage money. Moved by Mr. Mackay, That the evidence be closed. Question put and carried. Committee adjourned.

SATURDAY, Bth SEPTEMBER, 1855. Present—• Messrs. Carleton Messrs. Forsaith Taylor Mackay Mr. Sewell—Chairman. Question put, That the minu'es of evidence be read in extenso. Agreed. Evidence was then read by (he Chairman. The Chairman (hen read draft of a report. Question put, That the draft be adopted as the report. Debate etisued. On motion of Mr, Forsaith. the Committee adjourned for further consideration of (he report until 10 o'clock on Monday.

MONDAY, Bth SEPTEMBER, 1855. Peese^t — Messrs. Carleton Messrs. Taylor Forsaith Mackay Mr. SeweH—Chairman. Question put, that the draft report be re-considered. Agreed to. Paragraphs 1, 2, 5, 4, and 6, as amended. Agreed to. Question put by the Chairman that the following paragraph be agreed to. "In some instances pensioners who had obtained their cottage and land were subsequently deprived of them, for allcdged breaches of military discipline, such as non-attendance at parade. It would, in (he opinion of your Committee, be dangerous to re-open questions of this nature, decided by the proper military authorities, even were it competent to the House to do so." Committee divided. Ayes. Noes. The Chairman Messrs. Carleton Mr. Mackay Forsaith Taylor Paragraph expunged. Mr. Carleton moved—that the following paragraphs be inserted. 7. But your Committee would observe, that although the clearest breach of agreement was the neglect to place the men in immediate possession of their cottages and acres, the most serious grievance, and that which calls the most imperatively for the interference of the Colonial Executive, is the depriving them of cottages and acres, and even placing them under stoppages to the whole amount of their passage money, for absence from parade through sickness, and notwithstanding the production of sick certificates. 8. Your Committee can recognise no conditions with the men, excepting those under which they are actually enrolled. 9. They find an engagement to confer certain advantages in requital of certain military duties. 10. Tiiey believe that absence from parade under sick certificate, cannot be construed into a non-per ormance of duty. 11. The reception of a sick certificate in excuse being, as they believe, so invariable, as to have become a custom, and therefore incident to the conditions under which the men were enrolled.

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12. And the Colony is bound in loyally and good faith to carry out (he Queen's engagements, in all cases where it cannot be shewn that the military duties interpreted -according to the usual rules of military service, have been unfulfilled. Question put—that the paragraphs proposed be inserted. A yes. Noes. Messrs. Forsaith, Mr. Mackay, Carlelon, The Chairman. Taylor Paragraphs inserted accordingly, and numbered 7, 8, 9,10, 11, and 12. Moved by Mr. Forsaith—(hat the following paragraph be inserted. Ij. Your Committee moreover feel bound (o add, that as the unanimous testimony of the witnesses examined by them, establish the fact that the Crown in the first instance failed to perform the condition under which the Pensioners were enrolled; it becomes a question deserving the serious consideration of the Executive Governinenl, whether the breach of agreement on the part of the Crown, should not exempt the 1 ensioners from a 100 strict and literal interpretation of the contract in respect of the service they were required to render. Question put—that the above paragraph be inserted, and numbered 15. Ayes. Noes. Messrs. Forsaith, Mr. Mackay, Carlelon, The Chairman. Taylor. Paragraph inserted, and numbered 13. Paragraphs 11 and IS agreed to. Question put by the Chairman—that the following paragraph be inserted : lhey would add as a final remark their earnest hope, that (his investigation and report, may not have the effect of raising undue expectations in the minds of the petitioners, which may be disappointed. ~A yes" Noes. Messrs. Mackay, Messrs. Forsaith, . Carlelon. Ihe Chairman Paragraph inserted, numbered 16. Committee then adjourned.